The Race Replica Debate

[AMCO72]

Now we are getting into the heavy stuff..........'.re ignite memories and joy of a time that was freeer, more alive, exciting and innovative.......sigh !!!!! We as enthusiasts of course can recognise all this, and keeping things as they were is important. Unfortunately, the great unwashed public who spectate at these events dont know, or care, whats under the skin, or even the skin itself. I had a fella come up to me at Hampton Downs and suggested that I put BIGGER wheels on the Mini, as this would make the car go faster!!!!! As you can imagine my response was not very polite. So we say, stuff the spectators, we know we are doing the right thing, but there is a big temptation to improve performance by what ever means, to make the car look good in competition with others, and you mention poly bushes and electronic ignition as examples. I get pissed off when I am lapped by 300hp Escorts, for instance, so perhaps this new classification started by HMC with pre 78 over 3000cc and pre 78 under 3000cc will work better than a decade system. I'm not convinced, but we will see.It sounds as though regs are much tougher in Australia....... maybe you have a lot more cars to choose from, and it could get that way here, but at the moment encouragement rather than discouragement should be the order of the day.

[thunder427]

......how about we refer to these 'Iconic' Race Cars by who built them, then who owned then ,in the correct order where possible ,EG: Doyle/Dickie Anglia........picky!!,picky!!,I know but I'm trying to impress Our David Mac !!!!!....regards thunder427/MJ

NB;the 4 to 5yrs I spent building the Bob Jane Camaro encompased all the points of discussion so far,after considering that the job was to 'big' for me and that I should fly to Alaska before I rang Bob and told him I had failed the job/project, someone thinking outside the 'square' subjested, in a throwaway remark..." so which configuration are you going to build,these 'Bloody' things changed from one meeting to the next and sometimes back again"!!!!.....point comprehended, I went on to build it in the 'Spirit' of 1970/71, to which I left all 'hammer' marks, welding trails......I built it as 'Tribute' to the 70's and the ability and creativeness of the the 70's Crew , sure I've been criticised for possibly 'Over Restoring' the Camaro,but I can tell you it was built,not merely as an asset, but for People/Fans to enjoy.....the first time I had it on display at Bathurst 2002, Bob asked me why I had created a fence around the Camaro,I explained to keep the people of the finished article, ....his response was, quote,"Loose the fence,I want people to feel they can get up close and personal with the o'l Girl, she as earnt the right to be an o'l 'Show Queen' , don't you think" ??? .......had the fence down immediately and to this day I have probably done more damage to her, than her Legion of Fans.......let's not loose sight of the enjoyment factor in the effort to Build Pollitcally Correct 'old' race cars........and I'm talking about our NZ/Aust 'open class' vehicles ,not the Pat Hoore Ferrari type of Racer.......regards again!!!

[Shano]

I see the Custaxie is for sale on Trademe,except it's listed as the Custazie in the classic car section.

"The famous championship Allcomers Race Car has been restored to it's original condition.The car is still very competitive having won its ist race after restore.It's value will just keep growing.Reluctant Sale is someones Unique opportunity to own a Appreciating assett.No need to list details as many articles are available in motor mags"

[AMCO72]

Sorry thunder427.......an unforgivable mistake. I will consider myself suitably chastised. Moving on, even though you say you were careful not to over restore the car, I will bet my bottom dollar that your restoration is 'better' than the original. Should I say the workmanship is better, because I cant see you doing a shoddy job. This will be the case with all of these restored/refurbished/recreated/rehashed icons that are starting to appear now. Just take a look at these things when they were racing, even straight out of the box, some/most were as rough as guts. We just used to think differently back then. The Classic car scene didn't really get going till about 1972, although the VCC was under-way, so beautiful restorations hadn't surfaced. Once a benchmark has been set then everyone follows suit, though now, overseas, if a genuinely original car turns up, maybe as a barn find, the message is getting across...... leave it alone, and do not turn it into a Pebble Beach super star.

[Murray Maunder]

......how about we refer to these 'Iconic' Race Cars by who built them, then who owned then ,in the correct order where possible ,EG: Doyle/Dickie Anglia........picky!!,picky!!,I know but I'm trying to impress Our David Mac !!!!!....regards thunder427/MJ

NB;the 4 to 5yrs I spent building the Bob Jane Camaro encompased all the points of discussion so far,after considering that the job was to 'big' for me and that I should fly to Alaska before I rang Bob and told him I had failed the job/project, someone thinking outside the 'square' subjested, in a throwaway remark..." so which configuration are you going to build,these 'Bloody' things changed from one meeting to the next and sometimes back again"!!!!.....point comprehended, I went on to build it in the 'Spirit' of 1970/71, to which I left all 'hammer' marks, welding trails......I built it as 'Tribute' to the 70's and the ability and creativeness of the the 70's Crew , sure I've been criticised for possibly 'Over Restoring' the Camaro,but I can tell you it was built,not merely as an asset, but for People/Fans to enjoy.....the first time I had it on display at Bathurst 2002, Bob asked me why I had created a fence around the Camaro,I explained to keep the people of the finished article, ....his response was, quote,"Loose the fence,I want people to feel they can get up close and personal with the o'l Girl, she as earnt the right to be an o'l 'Show Queen' , don't you think" ??? .......had the fence down immediately and to this day I have probably done more damage to her, than her Legion of Fans.......let's not loose sight of the enjoyment factor in the effort to Build Pollitcally Correct 'old' race cars........and I'm talking about our NZ/Aust 'open class' vehicles ,not the Pat Hoore Ferrari type of Racer.......regards again!!!

Another good point about the elusive authenticity claims. I know that the Bruce McLaren Trust's McLaren M8A is restored to a spec which applies to only one of the six 1968 CanAm races. And the car went on to be the "mule" for the following year's M8B winged incarnation and on down the line to be sold to privateer Motschenbacher and so on.

This discussion is really interesting but destined to have people regularly having to "agree to disagree". The rulemakers have their work cut out, walking a line between inclusivity, encouragement on one hand and exclusivity and strict adherence to originality criteria on the other side. Central Muscle Car became a very strong class with big fields and fierce racing, it served a need. As HQ bodies were dragged out of the wreckers and wrapped around all manner of V8 contrivance with all sorts of modern running gear the class started to lose most of it's cred as a real historic class. I stopped watching a couple of years ago and thought it sad that all the fences had come down. The inclusivity became the hole in the fence and the point for escalating costs.... but I digress.

[Rod Grimwood]

The Custaxie very close to the original build. Mr Krilitich was found awhile back apparently and sorted the suspension etc. The reason i believe it is for sale is that Robbie suffered eye damage during the original Hampton which involved a operation and in reality i don't think he really wants to go through all the drama of "thats not how it looked inside", "thats not the original so & so" "can you produce this". He is a very good golfer as well. As stated earlier it is a long time since the original was built, and the person involved in most of this (re-build/replica) along with Robbie, is a pretty reputable person, and if he built as close too, then it is as close too. It is NZ motorsport history in what ever shape it is presented and i don't think the average guy is going to loose any sleep because it has different paint, interior set out, or what ever. One thing I will remember is the first time i saw it 40 odd years ago over the hill at Puke and then a couple of years ago over the hill at Hampton, both times sideways and going quick. The driver had alot to do with that and at least he has most of the original bits, and looks the same and sounds the same when you chat to him. PS Tony Krilitich is one very clever fabricator and engineer.

[Howard Wood]

Rod, I don't think anyone is questioning Tony Krilitich's skills, he built a lot of innovative cars back in the day. The issue is; like the increasing incursion of red tape and paperwork in the sport or not, the COD, HTP etc system is in place to help authenticate "historic" cars and if a car has been accurately replicated the issuing of the paperwork is there to confirm that. It is not at all unusual or onerous for MNZ to request clarification or evidence to back up the application.

And having been issued (or not) with the correct paperwork there should be no argument from the armchair critics, the car is deemed to correct unless further modified or changed. However, the paperwork cannot confer "original" status on a replica and neither should any owner!

[bry3500]

http://www.sharknose.net/

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=240853

[AMCO72]

I have recently been through this COD business as you know. I filled in the correct forms, all 18 pages of it, took some lovely colour shots of the car, inside, outside, upside-downside. Sent them all off with the fee to MSNZ and waited. They eventually came back, all the pages and photos with a nice red MSNZ stamp on them, and I was given a schedule K classification with an A compliance, plus a little red sticker for the side of the car telling people that this was something special......an Historic Vehicle. The only trouble is that NO ONE from MSNZ has actually looked the car to compare it with the photos supplied. I have no doubt someone will at the Festival, but meantime I have got my precious COD. Seems a bit back to front to me......not that I am growling. If I change the engine specification in future, which I intend to do, I have to notify MSNZ that I have done so, and supply more photos , and more money, to verify the change. And just suppose that an MSNZ official finds that the the photos dont exactly match the car, what then. Perhaps, as Howard has said, some people HOPE that the paperwork WILL in fact confer 'Historical Status' on the car, which will very definately have an effect on the value of said car. The asking price for the Custaxie II doesn't seem out of the way to me. I'll bet it cost plenty if all the hours were added up.

[AMCO72]

Please everybody on here, read the ferrarichat forum posted by bry3500. Some very thought provoking stuff there.

[RogerH]

I have recently been through this COD business as you know. I filled in the correct forms, all 18 pages of it, took some lovely colour shots of the car, inside, outside, upside-downside. Sent them all off with the fee to MSNZ and waited. They eventually came back, all the pages and photos with a nice red MSNZ stamp on them, and I was given a schedule K classification with an A compliance, plus a little red sticker for the side of the car telling people that this was something special......an Historic Vehicle. The only trouble is that NO ONE from MSNZ has actually looked the car to compare it with the photos supplied. I have no doubt someone will at the Festival, but meantime I have got my precious COD. Seems a bit back to front to me......not that I am growling. If I change the engine specification in future, which I intend to do, I have to notify MSNZ that I have done so, and supply more photos , and more money, to verify the change. And just suppose that an MSNZ official finds that the the photos dont exactly match the car, what then. Perhaps, as Howard has said, some people HOPE that the paperwork WILL in fact confer 'Historical Status' on the car, which will very definately have an effect on the value of said car. The asking price for the Custaxie II doesn't seem out of the way to me. I'll bet it cost plenty if all the hours were added up.

Gerald, my understanding from getting a few CODs and going through the COD check process at meetings, is that there is an element of trust involved with the initial application. What happens subsequently, is that your car could be subject to a COD audit at a meeting it enters. The rules are that 15% of entrants should be COD audited each meeting but in reality it is much less than that. However, you do face the risk of having your car checked and if it doesn't match the documents (either through an initial "porky" or subsequent alterations) then there is a chance the COD will be revoked or the car will be required to be bought back into line. If the alteration is period compliant then all that is needed is an amendment to the COD form to record the new configuration of the car.

It is a bit tedious, there is red tape involved and it is not a perfect system - however it does attempt to keep some control on ensuring that when you go racing in an historic grid it should be against compliant cars.

The COD doesn't necessarily give your car the seal of historic authenticity. All it means is that your car complies with the MSNZ requirements under Schedule K. I am aware that some CODs actually note that the car is a replica - this happened recently with a well known Kiwi (ex F1 connections) who had an exact replica built of a genuine historic race car that he owned. The replica was given a MSNZ COD but it was noted on the document that it was built in (say) 2007 and that the original period car existed. The chassis plate of the replica had the same number as the original but with a "C" (for copy) added. The marque registrar in the UK was advised of the situation so it is noted in the official records.

[RogerH]

Another good read is this thread on the replica (fake?) Maserati Birdcage that was recently passed in at auction after the owner tried to claim it was the real thing. The thread exposed the situation under threat from the owner of legal action :

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=149777

[Howard Wood]

Phew, fell asleep a couple of times but Anorak power is alive and well. However, when that sort of money is at stake there is no wonder some people behave unethically.

[AMCO72]

Yes, would still be nice to own, but at a fraction of the reserve. Where would a car like this be able to run? Frankly it is not much worse than a lot of RESTORED cars, except that this vendor was trying to bullshit everyone into thinking it was the real thing, with lots of the original in the rebuild. Took some reading through didn't it???

[markec]

What is the Custaxie listed on TradeMe, under Classic Cars.

[rogered]

[QUOTE=AMCO72;7085]I have recently been through this COD business as you know. I filled in the correct forms, all 18 pages of it, took some lovely colour shots of the car, inside, outside, upside-downside.



got some shots of it myself, upside down

[AMCO72]

rogered......as you come from Hamilton, I suggest that you were at the 1993 Classic street race when Angus had an argument with a large earth-moving machine tyre.....and lost!!! I have a photo of the car on the recovery truck, but not one of it inverted lying wounded on the road!! If you feel so inclined you could email it to me so I can add it to the collection..........bentley6@xtra.co.nz

[AMCO72]

Going back to Howard's use of the word 'anorak'. Not a description of a 'raincoat' we use here in NZ. Must have come from the UK trainspotting brigade, where these chappies would pass a lonely vigil, in their 'anoraks' to keep out the often inclement English weather, hoping to catch a glimpse of the Flying Scotsman as it thundered past pulling the 10.25 express from Euston!!!! Another one to cross off their list as they tucked into some hot broth from the thermos, and devoured a fish-paste sandwich. Howard used the anorak description for the car spotting brigade, and woe-betide any restorer who tries to pass off something that is not correct, as these characters will pick it up in a flash. My experience of these folk is that they dont actually DO anything constructive except to pick holes in other peoples hard work. Ah well, takes all sorts.

[AMCO72]

Yes, I know. The 'anoraks' here will be quick to point out that an anorak is a waterproof jacket, usually with a hood, rather than a raincoat, and worn by studious or obsessive people with largely solitary interests.[trainspotters/carspotters]

[Shano]

It's worth throwing a couple of wrong facts into something on the Autosport Nostalgia Forum to see the reaction. It's like throwing a chip to a flock of seagulls at the beach. And as I specialise in dodgy facts, all the more entertaining.