What's the answer?

[ERC]

Used to be a very lively thread, but Ten Tenths were worried about mud slinging and legal action and since they clamped down, there is no longer any robust discussion. We used to get a lot of insider information from some very well connected people...

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132827

I'm too not sure that robust discussion of some of the issues belongs on this message-board either, but what is the best board? Yes Andrew, I remember submitting feedback and I was told it was a load of crap - and the recipient couldn't even be bothered to read it all the way through.

Unfortunately, there are some (in power) with a bias against certain grids and groups (and individuals) because their philosophies are not totally aligned, despite the fact that they get good support from drivers and dare I say it? Spectators too.

The sayings 'cutting your nose to spite your face' and 'shooting the messengers rather than listening to the messages' seems to be a regular problem. Here, I have to give due credit to Chris Watson for always being prepared to listen and having a less tunnel-visioned view than most. Not perfect and not always right, but I believe his positive influence on the sport has been grossly under estimated.

[Trevor Sheffield]

MSNZ constitution dictates that each and every member club, (N.B. no matter the actual number of members) has the right to one vote at the AGM, where anything of real importance becomes decided. As a result individual members i.e. those who pay, are precluded from influencing decisions and political influence holds sway. What is more some clubs/members are not directly aligned with motor racing as such.

Over to you young guys and the best of luck. LOL

PS. Just turned up my last comment from the forum referred to by ERC :-

"FAQ:- A political situation is involved whereby those who currently hold power, as a collective, will never risk losing their individual authority as a result of an amendment to the current undemocratic aspects of the constitution."

[Allan]

But then hasn't motorsport always been a little like this. I remember being a scrutineer for the ACC for their club and minor national meetings, because I was interested in putting something into the sport and because I got free entry to the meetings, but when the big meetings ie GP came along it was someones mates who got those jobs.

[ERC]

Car Clubs are (MSNZ) levied according to their members, so a large club such as MGCC paid a massive amount in levies and had many racers, yet only got the same vote as a twenty member club with no active racers, which could vote on racing issues.

MGCC Auckland, with over 400 members, realised a couple of years ago the unfairness of this arrangement, democratically as well as financially, and pulled out of MSNZ affiliation. The active racers then transferred their membership to MG Motorsport, which is affiliated, with levies then paid only on racers - which reminds me, I need to cancel my MG Motorsport membership and revert to MGCC.

Members also pay a levy to MSNZ for each club to which they belong, so many have been paying two or three or more levies.

In terms of governance, nothing has changed and until the clubs get a vote for every 20 members, or similar, nothing will change - and that isn't going to happen, as turkeys don't vote for Christmas...

There have been rumblings of an outlaw association for years but sadly, it has never come to anything, though it has been close at times.

[Trevor Sheffield]

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Those who pay, i.e. those who have actually recorded genuine interest in the business should control the functions of MSNZ, as is the situation in respect of all registered companies.

Associated clubs should be considered as each holding a bloc of shares in accordance with the number of members holding a competition license, i.e those with money in the game. At the AGM the number of shares held and available to club delegates should decide the level of votes recorded by each club.

Each club at its own AGM could and would instruct its delegate in respect of policy. As a result individual participants in motor sport could and would control their destiny.

There was a loophole which could have been exploited prior to the current constitution being adopted, but the opportunity was missed and the door cunningly closed. Too late he cried as he waved his wooden leg, give the cat the canary. LOL

[rf84]

Some clubs are also at fault for not keeping members informed about MNZ AGCM. Our local car club has never in my 45 years experience either published a list of remits that are on the agenda at AGCM nor reported back to it's members on the procedings of the AGCM. This has resulted in myself and others feeling totally powerless and unable to have any meaningful influence over what happens at a national level. Attempts to get the information out of the Club delegate prior to the AGCM have only elicited answers which typically go "it's pointless having members having input on remits because we don't even know ourselves how we are going to vote until we get to the meeting and listen to the debates". The end result is frustration and the impression that delegates go to AGCM for a free trip, free accommodation, a big piss up and to end up toeing the MNZ line. A bit like Parliament really.

[rf84]

NZ Stock Car Teams champs in Palmerston North last night. Stadium holds 20,000 and it was PACKED-standing room only even though grandstand tickets were $65 (and they sold out in less than a month!) and general admission was $45. The vast majority of spectators/drivers/pit crews were under 50 years old, many in their 20's and 30's.
That is part of the reason why our traditional circuit meetings are suffering from a lack of entries and spectators. They are supported (or not) by an older (and ageing) population and simply don't appeal to the younger generation.

[John McKechnie]

So, following your reasoning ,the answer is for circuit saloons is to remove the glass, weld up the doors and entertain the huge crowds as Street Stocks?

[rf84]

Hopefully you made that suggestion with "tongue in cheek"?
No. Unfortunately it is not that easy John. Look at the average age of spectators and competitors at circuit meetings, especially historic/classic racing. How many or what percentage are/is under say 50 years old? Like it or not those of us who follow this type of racing are in the older demographic. We enjoy our branch of motorsport but the younger generations as a general rule do not share our passion for historic/classic racing. They have alternatives available to them. If we measure the "success" of the various branches of motorsport by the numbers attending meetings then the alternative forms are very successful. 20,000 on one night at a speedway meeting (and probably a similar number on the Saturday night) I would suggest would far surpass the numbers at all the circuit meetings combined (including the upcoming NZGP) this season.

[John McKechnie]

No tongue in cheek here as I understand this is a serious topic, and as such I threw this out here for discussion.
.After all, my Monaro, when built by Spinner , was to have 2 years on the circuit then be a Speedway car....as in, remove glass, weld up doors

[ERC]

rf4 has it really. It is now a generational thing - but only up to a point.

I know I sound like an LP record stuck in a groove, but no one in their right mind is going to be attracted to races with ten cars scattered around a track - where only part of it is visible from whatever vantage point you choose. We have to accept that speedway and stock car racing around a quarter mile oval with ten cars on a grid can still be exciting when you can see all cars all of the time.

I know that a bit of biff and bash adds to the excitement at stockcars, and dramatic crashes are often part of speedway, but they also have tail out motoring - cars have attitude. I remember so well my first ever speedway meeting at Western Springs and I was hooked. It looked exciting and boy, it was exciting.

As mentioned earlier, sticky tyres, cars driving as if on rails, small grids, unacceptable delays, cars out of sight for at least half the lap or so far away that you may as well not be there, terribly restricted spectator viewing spots, poor TV coverage - concentrating far too much on just two or three cars, so much red tape and often, over inflated prices of admission, lack of shelter - its not exactly a surprise that we have a few issues getting people in, is it?

Promoters need to front up and say for each meeting "This is for spectators" or "This is for drivers and Spectators" or "This is for Drivers" and structure them accordingly, because at the moment, there are some meetings supposedly aimed at spectators and drivers and quite frankly, they seem to be failing miserably on both counts.

[Allan]

Well said Ray. I also enjoy a night at the speedway except that I go to Baypark which has excellent seating and facilities. I do believe that some forms of motorsport have become more for the participants than spectators. In recent years I have noticed that Targa has moved into this category, where as a few years ago there were good numbers of spectators at easy to get to intersections, last year with one exception (an intersection very near Masterton) we were lucky to find ten people at the spots we visited. To go back further into the 70s I remember the numbers that went out to Maramarua to watch the International at night. Every tree had a petrolhead behind it.

[Kiwiboss]

Promoters need to front up and say for each meeting "This is for spectators" or "This is for drivers and Spectators" or "This is for Drivers" and structure them accordingly, because at the moment, there are some meetings supposedly aimed at spectators and drivers and quite frankly, they seem to be failing miserably on both counts.

That's about the best statement I've heard you come up with Ray, my understanding is that generally Historic and Classic racing is for the vehicle owner to go out and enjoy his(or her) car and drive at a pace they are comfortable with having some fun, like a Sunday game of golf! because after all there's nothing left to prove racing an old car. I have mentioned my Monterey experiences in the past, some years they have good size spectators other years none, but the event still carrys on regardless and the racer attendance is always the same. How do they make $$$ and run it, well the racer always pays that's how.

Another interesting take and I mentioned this over on a FB page, both Timaru and Scope had huge crowds(so I'm told) they had almost the very same classes that raced at Quinn's Festival(2 weeks prior to Timaru) and the Taupo GP were no one bothered to turned up, is it a North South thing? is it because there's less to do down south and too much to do up north? after all the amount of events, concerts, etc on up here is mind boggling.

[Trevor Sheffield]

rf4 has it really. It is now a generational thing - but only up to a point.



--- but they also have tail out motoring - cars have attitude. I remember so well my first ever speedway meeting at Western Springs and I was hooked. It looked exciting and boy, it was exciting.

As mentioned earlier, sticky tyres, cars driving as if on rails, small grids, unacceptable delays, cars out of sight for at least half the lap or so far away that you may as well not be there, terribly restricted spectator viewing spots, poor TV coverage - concentrating far too much on just two or three cars, so much red tape and often, over inflated prices of admission, lack of shelter - its not exactly a surprise that we have a few issues getting people in, is it?

And, the attitude, management and structure of the controlling bodies involved. N.B. Speedway / Motor sport.

[Michael Clark]

I was at Skope and thought the crowds were very good but some locals reckoned they were down on past years. I believe tickets were $50.

As ever there was a fair degree of variety - 5000s, Muscle Cars, Sports, Libre, and Saloons etc. Pretty much something for everyone. The South Island circuits seem to have a loyal fan base.

[khyndart in CA]

A beautiful day in a city of over a million and a great Jaguar display and look at the number of folk in this photo.
Has NZ lost interest in fine automobiles and racing ?
I was stunned when I saw this !

Jaguar Viaduct Day in Auckland. 2017

(Ken H )

[ERC]

The day clashed with another couple of events Ken and wasn't advertised on here or many other places. Car parking in the city is expensive and restrictive and we rarely bother go into the City.

The monthly Caffeine & Classics (free) car show catering for Classics, Hot Rods and bikes, has 700 cars on a bad day and I expect will top 1200 this month, yet is only ten minutes away from the viaduct. The date unfortunately clashes with a classic race meeting at Pukekohe... I'll probably be at Pukekohe for a while Saturday, but C & C Sunday (before sorting out a BBQ).

[Alan Hyndman]

Here's an article on last weekends attendance and possible future of the NZ GP at Manfeild, with the opportunity to comment at the bottom of it:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-sta...rn-to-feilding

That "Alan The Driver" guy has some good points!

[Kiwiboss]

I was at Skope and thought the crowds were very good but some locals reckoned they were down on past years. I believe tickets were $50

And yet Quinn charges the same $50 for his Festival 3 weeks prior with Muscle cars, Aussie Legends, etc and next to know one turns up! and yet Hampton is between Auckland and Hamilton were the most population is and probably the most wealthy people live...........its that same old story, the wealthy are the meanest....? the real rich people live on the mainland and luv motorsport by the looks?

[Oldfart]

The most wealthy don't seem to be interested in Motorsport, that's not the target audience IMHO.
Then again to live in Auckland you probably have such a big mortgage that you don't have a lot left over after the boat(s), flash cars, dining out twice a week, and owning all sorts of other toys.
I was interested to read the last few sentences in that article from stuff post #98