New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

[Kiwiboss]

I didn't start this discussion to stir things up but I am happy the way the discussion has developed. I also posted in the HSC thread rather than HMC because it is specific to FIA HTP or Sched K regulations.

My understanding of those regulations is exactly as Steve suggests, if you can categorically prove it was done in period (specifically in an internationally recognised race or series) then it is allowed. On that basis, the original tubbing of the Broadspeed cars is allowed because the current owner and/ or restorer can and will prove it. Which is not to say that the proof is widely available to other car builders or restorers!

On the other hand, the horsepower that some "historic" cars now have is a huge issue in historic racing in the UK and certainly has the potential to occur here. The suggestion of declaring the power outputs and benchmarking them to what was achieved in period has considerable merit.

Possibly the requirement of running the correct gearbox has the unintended benefit of keeping horsepower in check but not always.

This is a great discussion Howard and certainly no stirring. You really have two groups, the "Actual" car that raced in period with its modifications at the time...............and the FIA Homologated regulations which they(FIA) have worked out to allow an old car built and raced at today events but that have no history, which is pretty much were we are here in NZ.

Also, you cant undo knowledge, technology and modern thinking as this has solved all the problems of the past, and allowed todays Historic/Classics have more HP, handle better, and for us to drive them better.........of course safety has improved too. But this is why the coordinators of both HMC and HSC have to be quite anal with the regulations.........let one modern performance gain slip by.........well, we've seen what that has done to other classes and some of NZ's "not so" Classic fleet. Dale M

[Steve Holmes]

I didn't start this discussion to stir things up but I am happy the way the discussion has developed. I also posted in the HSC thread rather than HMC because it is specific to FIA HTP or Sched K regulations.

My understanding of those regulations is exactly as Steve suggests, if you can categorically prove it was done in period (specifically in an internationally recognised race or series) then it is allowed. On that basis, the original tubbing of the Broadspeed cars is allowed because the current owner and/ or restorer can and will prove it. Which is not to say that the proof is widely available to other car builders or restorers!

On the other hand, the horsepower that some "historic" cars now have is a huge issue in historic racing in the UK and certainly has the potential to occur here. The suggestion of declaring the power outputs and benchmarking them to what was achieved in period has considerable merit.

Possibly the requirement of running the correct gearbox has the unintended benefit of keeping horsepower in check but not always.

No Howard, your posts definitely don't come across as stirring, and you have posted on the correct thread. While HMC has its own unique set of rules which bare little resemblance to Appendix K, for people wanting to build an HSC car, they have an option of either using Schedule T&C, or Appendix K. And we're trying to encourage them to go with the Appendix K rules. After all, for anyone building a historic race car, why wouldn't they want that car to be completely period correct, as per the original homologation sheet? And why wouldn't they want a car that they could take and race anywhere in the world rather than something that only has a place in NZ?

Five years ago very few people in NZ had an understanding of FIA Appendix K rules, but as more people such as yourself, Grant Sprague, Paul McCarthy, Paul Berkahn etc build cars to these rules, the more others will begin to grasp how the rules work. And the more we talk about these rules, the more people will understand them.

[John McKechnie]

Steve- saw your latest book on Fords at the Warehouse last night, great read -highly recommend to have.
BTW-nice pic of my Falcon Coupe- thanks.
Cant wait for the next one.

[Kiwiboss]

No Howard, your posts definitely don't come across as stirring, and you have posted on the correct thread. While HMC has its own unique set of rules which bare little resemblance to Appendix K, for people wanting to build an HSC car, they have an option of either using Schedule T&C, or Appendix K. And we're trying to encourage them to go with the Appendix K rules. After all, for anyone building a historic race car, why wouldn't they want that car to be completely period correct, as per the original homologation sheet? And why wouldn't they want a car that they could take and race anywhere in the world rather than something that only has a place in NZ?

Five years ago very few people in NZ had an understanding of FIA Appendix K rules, but as more people such as yourself, Grant Sprague, Paul McCarthy, Paul Berkahn etc build cars to these rules, the more others will begin to grasp how the rules work. And the more we talk about these rules, the more people will understand them.

Interestingly enough is that comparing FIA Appendix K, Schedule K and T&C, HMC is actually the "Hotrod" class, its just that we have strictly controlled those hotrod freedoms(which to some are too strict) but the allowances given have all been based on "like Era" components pre Dec/1977............this took a number of years for all the Directors and the MSNZ Historic and Classic commission to work though, many a heated discussion I can tell you BUT we now have a great formula for racers to build and race cars to that is stable year after year and this has been proven with no increase in the fastest lap times(at Hampton) for over five years............and we will not allow anyone to over step the mark............plenty of other race classes should they wish to do so. Dale M

[Paul B]

No Howard, your posts definitely don't come across as stirring, and you have posted on the correct thread. While HMC has its own unique set of rules which bare little resemblance to Appendix K, for people wanting to build an HSC car, they have an option of either using Schedule T&C, or Appendix K. And we're trying to encourage them to go with the Appendix K rules. After all, for anyone building a historic race car, why wouldn't they want that car to be completely period correct, as per the original homologation sheet? And why wouldn't they want a car that they could take and race anywhere in the world rather than something that only has a place in NZ?

Five years ago very few people in NZ had an understanding of FIA Appendix K rules, but as more people such as yourself, Grant Sprague, Paul McCarthy, Paul Berkahn etc build cars to these rules, the more others will begin to grasp how the rules work. And the more we talk about these rules, the more people will understand them.

--------------------------------------
I am very keen to finish my Falcon Sprint 100% to Appendix K #1250 (980kg is impossible though! - but I wish) and I am more than happy to comply with all the regulations. I am also really pleased that we have our NZ historic racing footprint with all the compliance and support from dedicated people. There are a good range of class options to race in that everyone can participate.
As far as I am aware there are only 1-3 genuine Monte Carlo Sprints left in the world out of the 14 that went to Europe. So there are not so many options but to build an Appendix K replica, if that's what spins your wheels. My only option really. At the end of the day I guess it will be just as much fun as long as we all live by the same rules.

[Steve Holmes]

Steve- saw your latest book on Fords at the Warehouse last night, great read -highly recommend to have.
BTW-nice pic of my Falcon Coupe- thanks.
Cant wait for the next one.

Hi John, thanks so much for that, I really appreciate it. Did you see the Holden book with your Monaro in it?

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks to Paul McCarthy for sharing this great magazine article from 1970, showing how the Broadspeed Escorts were tubbed, as per Howard's description. 1970 was the year the BTCC switched from Group 5 to Group 2 rules, with Group 2 allowing more freedom in many areas.

[John McKechnie]

Hi John, thanks so much for that, I really appreciate it. Did you see the Holden book with your Monaro in it?

No, there was no Holden book. maybe everyone saw the book with the Cambridge Monaro article bought it, and the whole print series is sold out...I am the only one who hasnt got it.........maybe.
Got the Ford book though with that nice full page pic of me out-braking Dale into the corner.............

[Howard Wood]

[QUOTE=Steve Holmes;60989]Thanks to Paul McCarthy for sharing this great magazine article from 1970, showing how the Broadspeed Escorts were tubbed, as per Howard's description. 1970 was the year the BTCC switched from Group 5 to Group 2 rules, with Group 2 allowing more freedom in many areas.]

Steve, what a wonderful resource The Roaring Season is, the very same car as I was recently shown by one of the original constructors! Period articles and information such as this are a vital piece of the "evidence building" which is part of the research needed to correctly build to original specs. I guess you either love or hate that part of the process, I take my hat off to Pauls McC and B plus John McKecknie and everyone else who researches properly and is generous enough to share the knowledge.

[Paul B]

Is this what you are talking about Paul with the tubbing?
Big Air! Amazing stuff.

Thanks Howard, we are just custodians of these cool machines and hopefully grab a few smiles on the way and some comradery! Cheers

[Grant Sprague]

Thank you for sharing guys & Paul great photos etc , custodians love that word , yes that goes for every thing I guess , My build is a bit of a biggy as started with just a roller & an engine in bits thats it , no excuses except TIME & collecting ALL the correct bits & pieces not to mention..... ??? got 3 super tourers also at home one called India, Molly & Ebony lol if you get my drift . Thanks to Paul McCarthy steering me in right direction , plus Bruce & a few others , we are moving forwards each week regardless. Hope to get little current RS2000 to manfield Nov .

[Spgeti]

MG at Manfeild is going to be an amazing event. Dale has sent out the entries and regs today so let's get them in and support MG.
Looking forward to seeing you all at my home event.

Cheers
Bruce

[Steve Holmes]

[QUOTE=Howard Wood;61002]

Thanks to Paul McCarthy for sharing this great magazine article from 1970, showing how the Broadspeed Escorts were tubbed, as per Howard's description. 1970 was the year the BTCC switched from Group 5 to Group 2 rules, with Group 2 allowing more freedom in many areas.]

Steve, what a wonderful resource The Roaring Season is, the very same car as I was recently shown by one of the original constructors! Period articles and information such as this are a vital piece of the "evidence building" which is part of the research needed to correctly build to original specs. I guess you either love or hate that part of the process, I take my hat off to Pauls McC and B plus John McKecknie and everyone else who researches properly and is generous enough to share the knowledge.

Hi Howard, thank you for that, I really appreciate it.

Interestingly enough, I decided to follow up on the idea of period illegalities being allowed in modern day historic racing under FIA Appendix K rules. I asked a couple of colleagues in Europe about this, and they confirmed that in many cases illegal modifications done in period are now accepted as legal under Appendix K. I thought this was quite interesting. Essentially, the emphasis is on total period correctness, legal or not. Of course, it has to be proven and with photo evidence etc, so not necessarily easy to prove as usually these things weren't photographed.

However, I sent them the 1970 Autosport magazine article posted above and pointed out the tubbed rear inner fenders on the Broadspeed Escorts. They said that many of the cars racing in the BTCC under Group 2 rules (from 1970) were often more modified than those racing in Europe under the same rules, and that the FIA won't always accept illegalities as performed on BTCC cars. I guess the rules were interpreted differently, or enforced differently. While the original Broadspeed cars likely wouldn't have an issue getting an HTP, in their opinion anyone building a Group 2 Escort and using the Autosport article as reference to push through tubbing on a new build might get knocked back.

[John McKechnie]

So - what was illegal then is legal now, because they got away with it then.
No one knew what is was then, still dont now, until someone says it was done then, but you could never see it ?

Wouldnt like to get involved here !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve Holmes]

So - what was illegal then is legal now, because they got away with it then.
No one knew what is was then, still dont now, until someone says it was done then, but you could never see it ?

Wouldnt like to get involved here !!!!!!!!!!!!

In a nutshell John, yes. The way the FIA rules is that the cars should be just as they were in period. Remember, any blatant cheats would have been sprung before they ever raced. Its the more subtle stuff that would have slipped through, and even then, it now has to be proven, and with hard evidence.

[Steve Holmes]

This little monster should be making its HSC debut pretty soon; Paul McCarthy's stunning MkI Escort RS1600. This is a genuine RS1600 which Paul has owned for many years. Its been a race car for a long time, built as a 1971 Broadspeed replica. It remains a Broadspeed replica, though this time representing a 1972 variant with the slightly bulkier flares, complete with BDG engine and fuel-injection. Can't wait to hear this thing run!

[Steve Holmes]

This is the original 1972 Broadspeed Escort RS1600. The only real difference will be that Paul won't be running the chin spoiler.

[Andrew Metford]

This little monster should be making its HSC debut pretty soon; Paul McCarthy's stunning MkI Escort RS1600. This is a genuine RS1600 which Paul has owned for many years. Its been a race car for a long time, built as a 1971 Broadspeed replica. It remains a Broadspeed replica, though this time representing a 1972 variant with the slightly bulkier flares, complete with BDG engine and fuel-injection. Can't wait to hear this thing run!

Very nice indeed!! Can't wait to hear it again after all these years.

[Spgeti]

Thanks Paul for the photos. Your attention to detail is just amazing.
We, the Directors are all looking forward to seeing all the FIA cars coming to our grid.
We believe this is the correct direction for our group giving those the opportunity to take their cars overseas if they wish.
This for Saloon car owners is a serious challenge and for me a new learning curve on the need to reasearch the regulations for these cars.
We have had some interesting inquires over the last month and it showed the interest in both groups.

I will be at our first event of our season to meet new people and our usual stalwarts of both groups.
While I have been out of action due to illness I look forward to catching up with you all and I thank those who have sent their messages of concern but I am on the mend and knee replacement is now again on the horizon.
See you on the 14th

Cheers
Bruce

[Paul B]

The escort looks fantastic Paul, it will be great and impressive machine to see the on the track for sure.
Hope to see you all on 14th at Hampton.
Cheers
Paul B