Formula 5000

[Terry S]

When I started enquiring about Reg Papps & Sons in post 362, I didn't realise they were so Unknown. I thought it was just me in that situation.

Ray Bell has in a forum post labelled Papps as "dreadful" but claims to know very little of him. He wants me to contact Bob Muir on this.

That is completely and utterly irrelevant and a distraction. Why should I ask Muir why Ray has labelled Papps "dreadful". Why can't he tell me himself? That's all I am trying to do, but it has taken a lot of unnecessary posts......

[Kenz]

Terry,
Perhaps Ray was just being tongue-in-cheek when he described Reg as "dreadful".
After all, he was in pretty good company in regards to "drinking mates" referenced by Mr Bell; may have just been a bloke who wanted to keep a shout going!

[Ray Bell]

Indeed...

Very much tongue in cheek. And I thought Terry's question was about who he is and who the '& sons' refers to, not the 'dreadful' bit.
John Cummins, he would have heard 'dreadful' used in relation to a lot of people in the same manner.

I was actually referring to calling up Bob Muir to learn more about Reg Papps and any appropriate 'sons'.

[Grant Ellwood]

This thread is starting to sound like Monty Python's regular mentions of the mysterious Sydney Lotterby.

[bry3500]

Werner Buhrer

[Terry S]

There are many opinions on what was / is the best F5000. One way to look at it is their current relative values.

The authorative US magazine “Vintage Racecar” each month includes a table of the values for cars in different Historic Racing classes. In September last year it was the turn of F5000.
There are three levels of values based on degree of originality, Overall condition & restoration, competition history etc. They also note that their values are based on US values. “The values of historic racecars can vary by as much as 25%-35% in other countries, depending on local market appeal, currency rates and import duties”.
So the value of an Elfin will be higher in Oz than in the US for example.

The following are for top class cars and are in USD:

Chevron B24/25. . . . . . . . . 135,000
Chevron B37. . . . . . . . . . . .140,000
Elfin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .125,000
Leda LT22 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 120,000
Lola T140. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 90,000
Lola T190. . . . . . . . . . . . . .100,000
Lola T300. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
Lola T330/332. . . . . . . . . . .180,000
Lola T400 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .165,000
Lotus 70 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
March 73A. . . . . . . . . . . . . .115,000
March 74/75/76. . . . . . . . . .140,000
McLaren M10. . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
McLaren M18. . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
McLaren M22. . . . . . . . . . . . 150,000
McRae GM1 . .. . . . . . . . . . . 135,000
Surtees TS 5/8. . . . . . . . . . .115,000
Surtees TS 11. . . . . . . . . . . 125,000
Trojan T 101. . . . . . . . . . . . 115,000

Presented for interest and discussion.

[Steve Holmes]

Wow, thats really quite fascinating Terry. Thanks for posting. Interesting that the Lola T330/332 is the most valuable. I can understand why this might be, its a superb looking race car which was hugely successful in period. But I wonder also if part of the reason for its value is because in modern day historic racing its still a very fast car and hard to beat. Certainly, it'd have to be one of the more common, if not the most common of all F5000 models made? So rarity doesn't appear to play as much of a role as I'd expect.

[928]

steve,
the lola's cost more due to medical expenses to cover the famous lola limp

928

[khyndart in CA]

Having worked at Trojan during 1973 it surprises me that not only alphabetically but also in value that the Trojan T 101 is near the bottom of the list.
Only five were raced that year and between the Rothman European F5000 Championship and the North American L&M Continental F5000 Championship there were a total of 24 races.
The Trojan T 101 had 8 wins and three 2nd placing's in those races, so it was not a bad car.
Drivers such as Jody Scheckter and Bob Evans found it a car that could be thrown around with ease. Plus it had two of the best designers at the time of Ron Tauranac and Patrick Head.
I think it is a "sleeper" on that F5000 list.

(Ken Hyndman )

[John McKechnie]

ken- with your post, another $25,000 may now be added
Lola name has magic....just look at the song the Kinks bought out........................

[khyndart in CA]

John,
A "Trojan" that is driven properly can also be exciting !
( As long as there are no problems with the breaks / brakes !)


KJH

[Terry S]

Here is a nice Lola T332 for sale at USD 179,000, which is in line with Vintage Racecars valuation as above

https://vintageracecar.com/classifie.../formula-cars/

[Terry S]

I'll be home in July...

Remind me then to call Bobby Muir and ask him.

Just a reminder Ray, if you are back.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, I'm back...

So I've phoned Bob Muir and this is the story of how Reg Papps came to prepare the car.

"I was going in to Royal North Shore Hospital to visit John Moxon and I saw Niel being wheeled in. We had a quick chat and he got wheeled away, then I thought, 'What's he doing with the Lola?'"

So he got in touch with Tom Floyd and did a deal to buy the wreck etc. The body had been destroyed so he ordered a new body with the blue colour impregnated in it. The bits were all there at his workshop and, while Peter Molloy was to build the engines, he had nobody to work on it.

"Reg used to do a bit of work for me, buy some cars and so on, and he suggested he could take the car to his father's service station at Mascot and prepare it." The service station operated as Reg Papps & Sons, Reg being named after his father and his brother was also there working on cars.

As Reg had previously prepared a couple of Bathurst cars and had updated the Lotus 20, Bob agreed and Reg took on the work. It was Reg's idea to put the yellow onto the car and turn it out as nicely as it was ultimately finished.

Is that enough?

[Terry S]

Yes, I'm back...

So I've phoned Bob Muir and this is the story of how Reg Papps came to prepare the car.

"I was going in to Royal North Shore Hospital to visit John Moxon and I saw Niel being wheeled in. We had a quick chat and he got wheeled away, then I thought, 'What's he doing with the Lola?'"

So he got in touch with Tom Floyd and did a deal to buy the wreck etc. The body had been destroyed so he ordered a new body with the blue colour impregnated in it. The bits were all there at his workshop and, while Peter Molloy was to build the engines, he had nobody to work on it.

"Reg used to do a bit of work for me, buy some cars and so on, and he suggested he could take the car to his father's service station at Mascot and prepare it." The service station operated as Reg Papps & Sons, Reg being named after his father and his brother was also there working on cars.

As Reg had previously prepared a couple of Bathurst cars and had updated the Lotus 20, Bob agreed and Reg took on the work. It was Reg's idea to put the yellow onto the car and turn it out as nicely as it was ultimately finished.

Is that enough?

Thanks very much Ray. That closes the loop.

As I said earlier I was intrigued for years as to where they fitted in.