New Zealand's premier race series.

[Spgeti]

I agree with what you say re TRS Murray.....it probably is as good as it gets....it is a business and the success of it is the young fellas that come to race it all over the world for 5 weeks. We have produced ourselves some very talented young men over the last 10 years who have broken into other classes out side of NZ.....but there is little TV coverage of it and would it attract a viewing if it was televised.

This year we also have F5000's on the billing for the NZGP meeting, but I doubt that there will be the fine field we had at NZFMR.

[nigel watts]

Sounds shit hot George, be awesome , but in reality along comes those same people, (being nice here in calling them people) and slowly corrode it until they are big dog and it is down the gurgler again. Sad but motorsport in NZ has been inflicted with these people/groups for along time, and I do not see them leaving, in fact one of the main protagonists was snooping around in the F5000 sheds at Hampton, thank god the doors were open and he moved on through fairly quickly.

So who are these people and why do you, the racers, allow them to spoil everything? Surely there are more of you than there are of 'them'. Can't you get rid of them?

[Allan]

The way I see it, and this is my own personal opinion as well as NOT pointing the finger at anyone, as some of you have said the problem with many classes is not the class or it's rules that is at fault but those who run or control the class and who eventually become or see themselves as bigger than the class itself. As a demonstration of this imagine if Dale Mathers (please don't take offence Dale) did a deal with a spark plug company and made every competitor run that particular plug in HMC. It doesn't matter that the product is shit and not available in the required heat ranges but Dale owns the class and you will abide by the rules or else. And you will pay for them and no freebees, and carry large advertising stickers on your car while Dale collects the money from the plug company. So Dale (my apologies once again Dale) now owns the series and if you want to play with him you will have to pay for the privilege. And because he (Dale) can't come to a reasonable financial arrangement with a TV broadcaster then there will be no TV coverage of any kind at all so you sponsors will leave in their droves. Sound familiar?
Allan
Now Dale is not like that, or Bernie and Max, and runs a great class that is well supported and deserves all the plaudits it receives.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Did anyone see Mark Petch there.

[crunch]

Stock saloon cars, Bring back the Benson and Hedges 500. This was always a big deal in our race categories each year, approach all the new car dealers here and get them to put up some prize money and call it them run the hardest compounds again for economics and that's it .

Already in the pipeline

[fullnoise68]

The way I see it, and this is my own personal opinion as well as NOT pointing the finger at anyone, as some of you have said the problem with many classes is not the class or it's rules that is at fault but those who run or control the class and who eventually become or see themselves as bigger than the class itself. As a demonstration of this imagine if Dale Mathers (please don't take offence Dale) did a deal with a spark plug company and made every competitor run that particular plug in HMC. It doesn't matter that the product is shit and not available in the required heat ranges but Dale owns the class and you will abide by the rules or else. And you will pay for them and no freebees, and carry large advertising stickers on your car while Dale collects the money from the plug company. So Dale (my apologies once again Dale) now owns the series and if you want to play with him you will have to pay for the privilege. And because he (Dale) can't come to a reasonable financial arrangement with a TV broadcaster then there will be no TV coverage of any kind at all so you sponsors will leave in their droves. Sound familiar?
Allan
Now Dale is not like that, or Bernie and Max, and runs a great class that is well supported and deserves all the plaudits it receives.

So that's why Petes Mustang kept fouling plugs. Those spark plugs are shit Dale ......

[ElCoyote]

slipped through the F5000 shed before I got a good look

[Rod Grimwood]

Nigel, first part of question kind of answered twice, by Custaxie and ElCoyote. Second part can not be answered as no one wants to visit court.

ElCoyote, he was the one with knives and daggers hanging out of back, as air was sure moving in our area. (I presume we are thinking of same person) PS be diplomatic.

[Rod Grimwood]

Already in the pipeline

Hey Crunch that is great, you do a good job, thanks for your efforts especially with helping the "classic/historic" groups of late. All this in between being a good dad and gravel rashing, how is the garden coming on.

[Allan]

Thank you all for your input and thought. In Georges post #12 he says "give the public what they want and you will increase spectator numbers". While I fully agree I think the most important part is to give competitors what they want so as to increase the size of the fields and then the spectacle will be greater and eventually spectator numbers will increase.

[VWMS]

I think Angus Fogg answered this during the prize giving at the Highlands Festival of Speed this last weekend. " I chose to come down here this weekend instead of racing my SuperTourer at Hampton Downs"

Given that Angus has chosen to travel to another island to race for the weekend instead of attending a Tier 1 meeting just up the road, to me, speaks volumes.

Maybe Muscle Cars should be NZ's premier series if, in the minds of the spectator, it isn't already. I know I would prefer to see a weekend of Muscle cars with, GT, Clubmans, 2k Cup, Shellsport/OSCA, F5000 and Historic Touring Cars, or a combination of, as support classes.

Just my opinion

[CUSTAXIE50]

Thank you all for your input and thought. In Georges post #12 he says "give the public what they want and you will increase spectator numbers". While I fully agree I think the most important part is to give competitors what they want so as to increase the size of the fields and then the spectacle will be greater and eventually spectator numbers will increase.

And how would one go about that Allan.

[Spgeti]

I checked the Manfeild website this morning.....TRS, Toyota 86's, NZV8's, Formula Ford's, Formula First and F5000's and Central Muscle Cars. The weekend starts off on Friday evening with a fireworks display, drifting and motorbike displays and entertainment.
A display of historic race cars to celebrate the 60th running of the NZGP.
I have no idea of the sizes of the grids but I will go for the Muscle Cars, F5000s and NZV8's.

[Allan]

That, Custaxie50, is like asking for the meaning of life.
It is my personal opinion that most of us involved in the construction or modification of saloon cars prefer to work to a simple set of rules that make whatever they allow easily achievable while allowing us to have a greater input of ideas as to how this is achieved. By that I mean that a situation like the NZV8 supertourers where the chassis are all identical is not my idea of an ideal class. Please don't get me wrong, with a full field of entries these can be quite spectacular, but we need just that, a full field to create the spectacle that will get the punters bums on seats. But those cars are all the same except for a few bolt on panels and the badges. It doesn't matter how excited the commentators get about the "Ford verses Holden" stuff but in reality they are all an identical space frame and Chevy motor. To me the NZV8s are better because at least they start will a real car and turn it into a race car allowing those who build and maintain them to have some input into how they achieve the end result. I actually feel the same about the Aussie V8 supercars but they attract large crowds because of brand loyalty and the spectacle that the sometimes put on. I find the DTM to be so far away from reality as to be not worth watching.
I have thought for some time that world motorsport needs a class where it is possible to build a car anywhere in the world and be competitive. But it would have to be a class based on real cars not some quasi silhouette hot rod. For example how about a world wide class based on basic 4 door saloons running 6 cylinder engines up to 4 litres with no aero other than that fitted to the original base model, no great big flared gaurds, with no paddle or sequential gearboxes and major restrictions on wheels brakes and tyres. And on the point of tyres leave that open for competitors to use whatever they want within restrictions placed on them over sizes and quantity per meeting. Why? Because it gets a greater number of tyre companies involved which must benefit the series. And then hold a world series in as many different countries as possible, just like the old group A. We have in both NZ and Aus the skills and people to build a winner give a "sensible" set of rules. I think what tends to happen is the rules get too complicated and too expensive to allow for the backyard guys who would get involved in such projects.
It is also my belief that apart from the once a year visit of the Aussie V8s most motorsport is run for competitors and not spectators. If you went to the Ganley festival and looked at the crowd most there had been involved in some way in motorsport during their lives.
Allan

[Monaro1]

Hi all. Very interesting discussion these are the sorts of things i have heard so many competitors talk about at the track not the board room i have say and we all seem to have the same general ideas. I would say in responds to why do we ''let them do this to us" it's the same as why we let local and central goverment "do it to us'' its the type of people who get into those jobs if the likes of Dale and George were running motorsport i would think it would be different.

Here are a couple of ideas get rid of the one make corporate backed series most of these (Mini challenge, nissan sentra, 86 etc etc) have
no substance no grass roots support and as such will fall over after 5 years. Have the classes controlled by the competitors not motorsport nz thay can handle the promotional side of things only. As far as what sort of classes there is no need to reinvent the wheel
just look at what has worked before Group A. B&H, Sport Sedans and the original NZV8's

Here is my idea late model Mustang, Camaro, Commodore, Falcon, BMW, Merc, Camry etc semi production remove interior seats add cage race springs, shocks good brakes aftermarket 4/5speed box a few mods to the engines exhaust say call it Thunder Saloons support class Muscle cars, Pro 7, Formula Ford, old NZV8 cars on semi slicks and GT. Don't just copy the Aussie's Supertourers will always be seen by the public as poor mans V8 Supercars and those type of cars are unaffordable in a country of 4 million, Also don't blame the mark petch's of this world people like him will always put there own interests first its the people who let them run things that are to blame. But that just my opinion.

[cooper64]

Hi all. Very interesting discussion these are the sorts of things i have heard so many competitors talk about at the track not the board room i have say and we all seem to have the same general ideas. I would say in responds to why do we ''let them do this to us" it's the same as why we let local and central goverment "do it to us'' its the type of people who get into those jobs if the likes of Dale and George were running motorsport i would think it would be different.

Here are a couple of ideas get rid of the one make corporate backed series most of these (Mini challenge, nissan sentra, 86 etc etc) have
no substance no grass roots support and as such will fall over after 5 years. Have the classes controlled by the competitors not motorsport nz thay can handle the promotional side of things only. As far as what sort of classes there is no need to reinvent the wheel
just look at what has worked before Group A. B&H, Sport Sedans and the original NZV8's

Here is my idea late model Mustang, Camaro, Commodore, Falcon, BMW, Merc, Camry etc semi production remove interior seats add cage race springs, shocks good brakes aftermarket 4/5speed box a few mods to the engines exhaust say call it Thunder Saloons support class Muscle cars, Pro 7, Formula Ford, old NZV8 cars on semi slicks and GT. Don't just copy the Aussie's Supertourers will always be seen by the public as poor mans V8 Supercars and those type of cars are unaffordable in a country of 4 million, Also don't blame the mark petch's of this world people like him will always put there own interests first its the people who let them run things that are to blame. But that just my opinion.

just clearing something here , mini challenge should be MINI challenge ,( MINI is BMW, mini is Austin Morris Rover ,real minis ) bring back real racing

[Kiwiboss]

Hi all. Very interesting discussion these are the sorts of things i have heard so many competitors talk about at the track not the board room i have say and we all seem to have the same general ideas. I would say in responds to why do we ''let them do this to us" it's the same as why we let local and central goverment "do it to us'' its the type of people who get into those jobs if the likes of Dale and George were running motorsport i would think it would be different.

Monaro1, i do it because i have a passion, same with George S, John M, Steve E, Ray G, Rhy's and many others involved in old car motorsport. We/I are not in it for financial gain, infact is costs us like you wouldn't believe but for me i don't play golf, or have a flash boat, beach bach or anything else in life, infact i probably have NO life(compared to some) LOL, and although i have a passion for old Saloon Car Motorsport i do not care much for the newer so called tier 1 or 2 event class's because the fact of life is(we only need to look at he past) it will NEVER work, they will have their good years but mostly it will always be a struggle!! you see when the ultimate goal is to WIN(which is what these class's are about) there will always be someone with a bigger cheque book, better sponsor, expensive lawyer, and on and on that will manipulate the class, the rules, the people(or whatever) to their advantage to make sure they do WIN(at all cost) and this eventually drives other competitors away. Now, not tryin to be negative here but lets look at the good old days that i like, say from 66 to 74, it was the same back them, every year Fahey turned up with the latest machinery to WIN and that is what it took for him to win(and good on him) but it just made all the others spend more money do the same until it imploded(and Shell Sport started, 1978). See with open wheel cars you can't hide too many tricks as one can see them(mostly) so they are usually very similar(FF, FV, etc) but put a body on it and the clever buggars go at it, LOL.

I watched a DVD were Parnelli Jones gave a speech(some 20 years ago) when the US had both cart and IRL and both were struggling to survive!! he said if someone invented a "Washer" and that washer made the car go faster or made more power but that "washer" cost hundred grand, all you have done is made everyone spend a hundred grand(get the idea?) and hence the vicious circle begins. Also you cannot compare NASCAR or V8 Supercars as both these class's are professional Motorsport were a living is been earned and people are paid, with 4.5 million people there is no doubt we(NZ) cannot do it this way.

This is a great posting and like myself, everyone has an opinion so keep them coming. Crunch, im hope im wrong?

Enjoy

Dale M

[ERC]

You are getting very eloquent these days Dale! Good post. Money indeed seems to be the major problem but when there is any 100% control class, we lose sight of the fact that it has always been a sport that involved talented engineers and car builders, not just drivers.

Tier 1 should maybe have more open formulae with fewer rules (engine capacity, tyre width, rev limits, aero packages) where there is an overall cost cap and at the end of the season, any car can be bought for a maximum number of $.

On another thread, there is a discussion raging about the Super Tourers where they mention that the front bar (splitter/bumper) made out of carbon fibre and Kevlar has to be imported from Australia , at a cost of $3,5000 plus GST and freight.

With all components being controlled, there is no room for innovation. There is a very good reason why Kiwi engineers are respected world wide, particularly by race teams, and the current Tier 1 structure leaves no outlet for them to develop their innovative skills.

Those proposing a production car formula with no body mods are ignoring history. We want to see cars that may well have had their origins in the car showroom, once upon a time, but the widened arches, splitters and wings are what make us go 'Wow, a race car!'

HMC cars run historically correct cars that hark back to a time when each car looked different anyway, so there is now little or no need to make them look interesting, that is for the Historic Special Saloons class. Those were the cars that really excited us then and will continue to do so - but there is no Tier 1 modern equivalent. Everything is now too sanitized in a mistaken belief that all we want to see is identical cars racing door handle to door handle in a quest for perceived parity.

Unlike Dale, I do have a life, but I certainly don't run a series for any benefit, financial or otherwise. I still run it because unlike 1996 when I started with this series, only two or three competitors had computers and running an event meant a mail out of 400 sets of three page regulations, which took forever and cost a small fortune. Keeping in touch via telephone or snail mail was a massive time killer too.

Sitting at a keyboard and being able to send out all info just as fast as it could be typed and forcing everyone to get internet access for all communications has ensured the longevity of the series. It is still an onerous task with over 100 drivers, but manageable.

Tier 1 as someone pointed out, with manufacturer backed series, are always very short lived anyway and never manage to engage the general public and they never will. Ford vs Holden is dying, if not already dead anyway and I never bought into either camp.

The fewer makes/models on a race programme, the lower the spectator interest.

[Oldfart]

Aren't there some well thought and well formed points of discussion here?
I really don't know whether there is any chance of our beloved sport gaining huge spectator numbers again. In days of old(!) things like the GP and even the better club meetings gained large numbers because there was not a lot else to do, or go to. That is no longer the case. Remember when MANZ, as it was, would decline a permit application because there was a similar event in a reasonable geographic radius? Now our sport has to compete with all sorts, often times conflicting motoring based things. The Festival was on the same weekend (one of them anyway) as Kumeu Swap meet and Hot rod, yes a lot of people go to one or the other, but Kumeu was heaving with people on the Saturday, and many of the same I spotted at HD Sunday. That does not take any account of other sports at all, and with most folks with much smaller discretionary money to spend they have to make a choice.
As for the classes, in my opinion, none of those promulgated by the hierarchy in recent years have had any appeal. Full stop.
When the NZGP was run for Formula Fords I lost interest and yet to be re-kindled. Close racing is not the answer, and I don't know why, just look back at any old footage, races were won by big margins.
For the true enthusiast the saying "rubbing is racing" is just not true. Most of us respect both the longevity of the vehicles and the safety of the drivers. For me, as soon as that stuff starts I am "out of here", both as a spectator and from any other aspect. If you want to see that go to the dirt ovals.
The ovals can actually show lot, quick fire races, packed programmes, vocal informed commentators (most of the time) and it is a hell of a show. Of course, that is part of it, motorsport is NOT about racing cars any more, it is a spectacle for the crowd which just happens to be based around cars. Perhaps that's why the sport is suffering, it's not a spectacle, and the cars selected don't encourage that.

[John McKechnie]

Rhys- +1