Historic Sport Sedans

[ERC]

Have to agree with you Kevin, there is such a broad spectrum of cars from thoughout at least four decades of NZ motorsport that it seems crazy to bring in rules like this, especially when most of these cars were built and raced when there were very few rules... even more so when the organisers keep repeating that the cars are the stars and rewards are chocolate fish....but that seems to be the avenue that NZ Motorsport is hell bent on travelling down. All I can say to 4dnut is go south young man- SFOS where they still seem to consider a car on the track is better than one in the shed.... although the times are a changing and influences from up north are trying to spread this trend country wide.

I'm afraid we are going over old ground here. I don't think there is anything new to add. 4dnut knows well enough that there are not only several convenors' grids with different philosophies, but that MSNZ and the H & C commission's stance doesn't have the full support of all the competitors either.

There are pragmatists and purists at all levels and you throw your lot in one with one or the other. Purists can always race alongside pragmatists and hold their heads up high, but not necessarily vice versa. So yes, the pragmatists can bring their cars out of the shed but their options to race may be a little more restricted.

[Rod Grimwood]

Sorry Jac you got it wrong this time sun shine. Need to know full details not just bits.

You Quote: 'Have to agree with you Kevin, there is such a broad spectrum of cars from thoughout at least four decades of NZ motorsport that it seems crazy to bring in rules like this, especially when most of these cars were built and raced when there were very few rules'

Jac Point being; It is a new car with all the latest in it, built of latest, please it is not historic, has no history, etc etc. Don't forget this is a 'classic/Historic' event and group/class.

I personally love the car, it is a darling, and want to see it going (I have seen car going and up close) He is a bloody good guy and family along with it and very clever fabricator and can peddle a car very well.

If it is a problem in the north then you get the car and fella south and make him at home, and then find somewhere for him to race. Best of luck , You will get same as some with 'classic-historic' cars don't really feel good having pants pulled down by something that is 30 years younger and latest gear, etc etc. The Historic Cars are the stars, don't detract from this as it has taken a lot of work to get these cars dragged out and they are happy with their lot. Some even have the same person behind the wheel that was there 20-30 years ago, so it has got 2 lots of elders out having FUN.

In reality, it is a weapon, and leaves the 'Historic Sports Sedans' and other classics for dead, hence why the poor bugger is finding it hard to get a run at a 'Classic/Historic' meeting. if you can organize similar looking cars that will run with it then please 'fill your boots'

shit it's late nye nye

[Grant Sprague]

Well put Rod as hard as it might be to say these words but facts are facts , simply that..... ps Rod you sound like a box of birds will you on the 2 nd weekend 24th & 25th........ Granteeee

[John McKechnie]

This discussion is centered around one thing- a sequential gearbox.
Jacmac- can you remember Gary Sprague, Crosbie,Lin Neilson- any of those guys running a Quaiffe or Hollinger sequential gearbox or getting the guts and fitting it to their Escorts?
When there are no firm rules for club cars or T/C then of course modern running gear taken from Sierras on will be used.- dont assume it is Historically correct if its modern. It is up to the owner.
Even Central Muscle Cars who do not cap horsepower wont allow sequential gearboxes in.
Historic Escorts are about the likes of John Dennehy, Raydon Smith-for example- who tirelessly campaign their Escorts not needing a sequential gearbox to bring out their best when they race. Nor have they repowered with 2.5 litre Smith and Jones Engines.
Two Escorts here have sequential gearboxes- the other car is removing it and having a normal gearbox fitted .

[4dnut]

I appreciate Ray's comments and his offer of running in his series at other events, many thanks. I have never made any secret about what my car is and what is in it or mislead what is in it(unlike some others). What I thought was that I had run in this class the last couple of years , no real pressure to change the gearbox. When George started to get this grid going I was invited to come and run to help with numbers and once the class was well established and grid was full I would happily bow out. If I had known I was to be excluded because of the gearbox I would have done something about it, my mistake. Not sure if I completely agree with Rod saying latest of everything, engine is period BDG with Lucas injection, been around since 1974? I was always under the understanding that this class was for historic sports sedans and the invited allcomers part was to encompass cars not quite right?

[Kevin Hirst]

That was along time ago Kevin, and if you had same car/gear ok.

It is 'Historic Sports Sedans'. Ok there are/have been a few other cars previous to help with grid to get class going and interest. These cars have been in the "spirit' of what used to run with Sports Sedans some times back in 80s.
This Escort is a beaut and has been built immaculately with the best gear, and is a rocket ship but unfortunately it is not historic.

Gearbox is not as run by cars back then. We will not start on 'YB' as that is mine field. would be great to have this car running but work needs to be done on how.

Rod, you still have not told me what an allcomer is, or the reason why he could not enter sport's sedans & allcomers, see you there.

[Rod Grimwood]

When I said best of every thing it was a broad statement, not intended to offend.

I also wrote this before Jafa and ERC had replied. As ERC says, it is old ground and be good to have it sorted.

As I said, it is a great car, a good guy, and I like seeing the car.

Nothing personal against anybody, but don't shoot in half loaded as it does not help.

Thanks Grant, yes it was/is hard to say, but as above, some are only half loaded. It has been a hard long exercise to get 'Historic Sports Sedans' back out of the sheds and we need to support the people who have done this and the owners/drivers.

I have a hell of a lot of time for the people involved with the car and as stated, it is a credit to them and they are bloody nice people and I hope this can be sorted out in a good way for all, and that includes the general public/motorsport enthusiast.

And a big 'Yes' to feeling better. There this weekend and next can not wait and be great to see you and others.

Kevin, Allcomers was included to cover the likes of the Corvette Zephyr (replica) having a run as it is 'Historic' in its own sense, not to invite everyone to go out and build a Allcomer from NASA left overs. (broad statement) I thinks you know what an Allcomer is and there is not any built after about 68 when MANZ changed the rules. Sport Sedans and Osca actually did have rules also, ok they may have been very broad, but they had rules.

I'm off fishing, hope the fisheries guys don't question me, I think I know the new regulations.

[John McKechnie]

Kevin-
reason-a modern sequential gearbox takes any car out.
what - period or acceptable equipment.
This shows that there are people who have assumed that a modern sequential gearbox is standard fitting to MK1 Escorts and are willing to accept this at a Historic meeting.
Will the true Escort followers please stand up and be counted.

[Jac Mac]

Kevin-
reason-a modern sequential gearbox takes any car out.
what - period or acceptable equipment.

Then it should be - a modern gearbox takes any car out, so that also means Jerico's, T101A, Getrag, Later ZF etc- It is Historic Sport Sedans, some cars ran Hewland Transaxles and conversions with Straight cut gears, Sequential shift and Dog Engagement, think of names like Knight etc who preceeded quaife & others, any clever engineer could build/fabricate a sequential shift system for most conventional transmissions and modify them to dog engagement, was it done in period, yes by some of the more clever and 'silent' guys.

Thing is, I look at your Invitation list in post #522 and see others who probably fall short of some of your criteria, hope you don't find them !!

Bugger, forgot me Ford Blue!!

[Kevin Hirst]

Kevin-
reason-a modern sequential gearbox takes any car out.
what - period or acceptable equipment.
This shows that there are people who have assumed that a modern sequential gearbox is standard fitting to MK1 Escorts and are willing to accept this at a Historic meeting.
Will the true Escort followers please stand up and be counted.

Thanks guys, Iguess that you can only build an allcomer if you want to race with moderns.

[ERC]

Just to clarify, we don't accept sequential gearboxes either and I assumed that 4dnut's gearbox is now a normal H pattern!

We also have a speed bar. That effectively prevents anyone having a car significantly faster than the norm. We would still expect that cars would be effectively be constructed out of components available in period, but we have always reserved the right to refuse to accept any car not deemed in the spirit of the class. Of more importance is that anyone not driving to the spirit of the sport would be more likely to be sidelined.

If cars have sneaked in over the years with more modern technology, then they will of course be the first to be sidelined or asked to correct errors when grids are over full. To date, we have only ever had one over full grid.

Cars banished to sheds are a total waste.

Are shift lights period? If not, then why are they allowed? Not all non-period components are to make the car faster, but are to avoid expensive blow ups, but where do you draw the line? 100% period, or only where it suits? I am pretty sure that there are many cars masquerading as period and accepted by all and sundry, that are made up of anything but 100% period parts. There are many cars out there that are 100% restored and personally, I see no difference whatever between them and a 'new' car built up from identical components. As you can still get a brand new MGB bodyshell, does transferring all the old bits over and retaining the rego suddenly render it illegal?

The difference is that this (HSS) class is primarily aimed at bringing out warriors of old, so it still leaves a class gap for race saloons without an historical provenance, but I fear we have too many classes already. We accepted cars such as John Dennehy's Escort, as at the time, there was nowhere else for it to run, but it does not conform to our rules as closely as 4dnut's car. (No interior trim, no passenger seat etc.) The same applies to one or two others. There were no options at the time, which is why we also accepted Datsun Z's into a Euro series.

We still allow John to run as a) he has run before b) he is an excellent and vastly experienced driver c) there are those who want more than three or 4 races a year.

I believe that under the current regulations, you are allowed to create a period single-seater special, which will be approved by MSNZ as Classic/Historic, but not a period saloon special. Funny that.

It is all very well being exclusive, but somewhere along the line, there also has to be an inclusive policy

[John McKechnie]

The difference is that this (HSS) class is primarily aimed at bringing out warriors of old, so it still leaves a class gap for race saloons without an historical provenance, but I fear we have too many classes already.

Ray- thank you for putting this so clearly.
Also those watching my posts will know that I 100% put out there that if anyone has a car that wants to run with HSS to contact me.
Some have and their cars are discussed and have entered.
I am so against race cars being garaged I want to incorporate Shellsport cars, so we dont have to create a separate class.
Period saloon car creation.... Custaxie 2, and its running this weekend.

[ERC]

Thanks guys, Iguess that you can only build an allcomer if you want to race with moderns.

To quote John Dennehy himself - "If it looks like an Escort, it probably is an Escort". Outsiders and less knowledgeable spectators just see a Ford Escort.

[Howard Wood]

John, we seem to have completely hi-jacked your thread here but this year it seems to me that the Festival promotors have for a variety of reasons ended up with a program which is very heavy on specific classes and short on options for a lot of potential entrants (like myself and 4dnut).

If you look at weekend one, there are 11 classes, of which only 5 are for saloons of any type. Of those 5 classes, two are series specific BMW Open classes, one is Dale's HMC which appears to have had to restrict eligibility to accommodate the Aussies (not unreasonably), one is Heritage Touring Cars which contains some precious and valuable cars who also not unreasonably don't want or need to open their field up to all and sundry. Which leaves Historic Sports Sedans; a class on which John has worked mightily to drag genuine and otherwise un-used and forgotten cars out of retirement and not unreasonably too does not want to be the dumping ground for all and sundry who can't find anywhere else to race.

The situation is similar for weekend two. Of course the saloon guys (and not to put too fine a point on it, most of the crowd) might suggest that some single seater classes could be amalgamated but the fact is the Festival has always been single seater orientated and that should continue as there is precious little opportunity for those guys too.

Ironically this situation has come about to a degree because of falling entries, I guess the picture might change if entries and/ or spectator numbers fall this year. Either way, as a long time entrant at the Festival, I am annoyed enough to seriously wonder if I would ever base my race plans around this one meeting again but view it more as yet another race meeting to consider entering.

[ERC]

Your car is obviously eligible for the ERC Series Howard and also the open BMW - which is two options plus the fact that they have now padded out what was the poorly supported sports GT grid with saloons, making three choices.

We would never have considered approaching the organisers to run, had last year's meeting had full grids and with so many of our regulars obviously refusing to enter, because of the formats and class structures.

I am more than happy spectating just as long as there is something to actually see and the falling entries were a big turn off for a lot of people last year. Many who did come along enjoyed the Ferrari theme and the F1 demos, but that wasn't enough.

[John McKechnie]

Howard- I welcome my thread being used as a discussion ground, and see nothing wrong with anything here.
And love the part about being the dumping ground.................

[grelley]

I dont think I have seen the Escort race, but it is certainly a beautiful car. I am sure if you had a genuine Alan Mann Escort racing with a good driver, it to would blitz the feild. Why not allow the car to run, but start it from pit row 30-40 seconds behind the rest of the feild, so that spectators can see it race. After all we are all told that "winning is not what is important"
Grelley

[Paul Wilkinson]

It is a beautiful car and well driven too. I suppose the concern is that the owner/drivers of the 'period' sports sedans might either object and withdraw, or start to modify their cars with modern components to remain competitive and thereby obliterate the history the class is trying to preserve. No one wants to see these cars put back in mothballs or turn up unrecognisable. However, as Paul has supported the class and been used as 'filler' when numbers were dangerously low, I wonder if the pragmatic approach might have been to repay the favour and give him a 'sunset' date to bring the car into compliance with the class? Give him formal notice and a reasonable period to scratch together the money and do the work - if it isn't done by the date given, then fair enough - he doesn't want to race there.

[John McKechnie]

Grelley- this is an Historic race meeting. He can run this car with this gearbox at what ever T/C or ERC meeting- and he is running at the Leadfoot if you want to see it.
The Historic boys have this meeting , they put a lot into keeping their cars correct ,this car isnt.
End of story- This is an Historic thread, if this car means that much to everyone please go to a Escort, Classic or ERC thread and discuss it there.

Lets focus on the cars that are the stars of the group, entered and running -, and here they are now-
Historic Sports Sedans & Invited Allcomers

No. Firstname Surname Year Make Model CC Colour

6 William Dunn 1968 Chevrolet Camaro 6600 Blue
7 Peter Hooper 1982 Toyota Starlet 1496 White
8 Dennis Running 1979 Mazda RX8 V8 5000 Red
9 Graeme Addis 1972 Chrysler Charger 770 5998 Black/White/Blue
12 Rodney Holland 1993 Oldsmobile Aurora 5800 White/Gold
18 Barry Algie 1970 Holden Monaro 5800 Orange
40 Adrian Dobbe 1969 Vauxhall Viva 3300 Silver/Black
41 Bruce Kett 1968 Chevrolet Camaro 6000 White
49 John Rush 1980 Ford Escort 6000 Red
50 Robert Bartley 1955 Ford Customline 7000 White/Blue/Red
61 Gordon Burr 1977 Alfa Romeo Algie Alfetta 5000 5000 White
68 Roger Davis 1976 Holden Torana SLR5000 5900 Red
69 Jon Telford 1981 Mazda RX8 5800 Red
72 Robert Jack 1979 Ford Escort 5800 White
75 Roger Williams 1974 Chevrolet Corvette 8330 Blue
80 Ivan Bevins 1974 Ford Falcon XBGT 6000 Black
80 Jason Bevins 1974 Ford Falcon XBGT 6000 Black
87 Garry Haynes 1980 Mazda RX7 5700 Grey
93 Ivan Selak 1971 Escort YB Cosworth 2000 Blue
96 Richard Quin 1979 Toyota Starlet V8 3992 White/Grey/Red
98 Ralph Mossman 1995 Chevrolet Monte Carlo 5700 Yellow
103 John Dennehy 1968 Ford Escort Mk1 1975 Red
118 Graham Barnes 1976 Ford Capri 5800 Red/Black
181 Ron Findlay 1970 Ford Capri Perana 5700 Red
193 Mark Allan 1972 Vauxhall Firenza 5300 Orange
302 Bruce Goodwin 1963 Ford Zephyr Mk 3 Chev 302 Aqua

[Shoreboy57]

"Lets focus on the cars that are the stars of the group -, and here they are now"

A wonderful turn-out John. Congratulations. Bring on the weekend