I have an entry list Mike. Will try and email it to you tomorrow.
I have an entry list Mike. Will try and email it to you tomorrow.
Just a little bit more work done on the car in the last few days.
1. Tidy up of the loom has started. I started on the rear of the loom, removing the factory wires for speakers, electric aerial, and rear window demister. The rear screen the car has does not have the rear demister - this was an option on the early cars, becoming standard later on in the zeds - so no point in them staying I will not be fitting a different rear screen or a radio again.
2. Installed the front brakes - and found an issue with the rears need to modify the rear caliper brackets as the offset is about 1mm out causing the calipers not to fit - this will be sorted in due cause and one of the issue one comes across when replicating period setups when 40+ years has passed by and brake kits that are available now are for later/larger Wilwood setups that were not used in period on the car in question.
I did get a bit of Xmas press for my self too - just before Christmas I was surfing the internet for more info on period setups and other info I could purchase to help me better understand all the parts that were available to races back in the day, anyway I found a copy of the 1974 Datsun Competition Parts Catalog for sale in the USA. I could not get my credit card number out fast enough to order that bad boy. It arrived yesterday and I am very please with my $50USD purchase, it came in the original franked envelop dated 9th April 1975 from "Nissan Motor Corporatation in USA" - and looks like new.
Hopefully not a dumb question - what class are you intending racing this great car in Mike ?
No problem I have been supporting Ray and the ERC series for a while. First as pit b...h for Ricky and his Datsun 240z and on on occasion a mk1 Escort for over 10 years now. I have been a financial member of the ERC group for a while now so that is the group I intend to run with. The driving standard and the group are just a great bunch of characters. Also the fact most of the cars are from the same period ie the same make/models the Datsun 240z/260z raced against on circuits all around the world or on rallies at the top level of the sport.
When I first got this car with its modern Skyline DOHC EFI, later Wilwood brake setup it would have been much quicker to complete the project as it was and run in the All All Japanese class (don't think the word classic applies to this bunch of Honda's. If the grid had more Datsun 1600, 1200, 160j SSS, 240z/260z, Skyline C10 (first model car in the world to have the GTR badge with the 2000cc DOHC 4valve engine), Prince GTB (s54), Toyota Sprinter/Levins TE27, Mazda RX2 and RX3 ie all the Japanese models that have racing history in the 70's on the world stage of circuit and rallies then classic can be used but a $4000 or less Honda Civic is not a classic car in my eyes (given finding a good 240z today will cost you 2 x MGB GTs.)) Then the driving standard of these Honda's etc was not at what I would call ideal. I guess that comes down to cost...if the cost of a replacement shell is only $2000-3000 or less then you might have a different take on the cost of fixing a car. Having purchased a number (and maybe the last bunch of NOS) geniune panels for my road zed I can say a bonnet and front guards are the cost of one of these entire cars plus some and that does not include bumper or more to the point many of the NLA parts that go with a car that is over 40 yeard old.
Last edited by nzeder; 01-03-2014 at 08:18 AM.
Have to agree with you Mike. I felt more comfortable in the wet with Ray's ERC guys than i did in the dry with "classic" jap.
Great bunch of guys to chat with as well.
Last edited by Limezed; 01-03-2014 at 09:32 AM.
So long time no post or work on the carkids little time vampires
Anyway it is now decision time - front spoilers. The zed cars had 4 options in period depending on market and customer requests. Well there were other options like the ZG nose and the 3 different type of fender flares from factory ZG fender flares, type A works fender flares and the super large works type B fender flares (like those used on the Le Mans enter zeds)
Option 1 = no front spoiler
Option 2 = UK, EU and NZ factory/dealer delivered/option Urethane front spoiler (super rare and most are damaged)
Option 3 = USA/CANADA factory/dealer delivered/option non ducted front spoiler
Option 4 = USA/CANADA factory/dealer delivered/option ducted front spoiler
As I have decided to go Schedule K with my application once the car is complete - then all of the above options are open to me. If I go T&C then no front spoiler is allowed (however I see many cars in that claim to be T&C compliant have front spoilers including HMC) this is from 3.2 (1) which stated only rear wings that were available in period can be fitted.
Under T&C must be of the original materials etc - the factory fitted Urethane front spoilers have an issue that their mounting brackets tend to rust off/out of the Urethane. I have managed to locate one of these spoilers but like most it has seen better days now they are some 40+ years old. I see CAMS in AU due to this reason they allow replica version of these to installed as does the FIA - so I assume MSNZ/HRC too will allow Fiber Glass replica. I have seen FIA HTP 240z for sale with option 4 fitted.
As I am 99% sure I will go down the Schedule K path so that means any period spoiler can be used so what say you??
Sample Image time.
First up the Urethane item - my old 240z NZ new
UK Press picture from back in the day
Datsun 260z in a museum in Germany
Now the non ducted USA/CANADA option
And now the ducted USA/CANADA option (as used by BRE race car and others)
Period race team pic as completed in an event - notice no bumpers fitted, usually only the front bumper was fitted during transportation and photos pre event.
Last edited by nzeder; 03-31-2014 at 09:11 AM.
Mike L
Another pic of the ducted front on a racecar with ZG over fenders fitted.
So what are the general con censors on this forum? I am leaning towards the ducted as that is what most race teams in the USA used + that allows me to run ducts to the brakes which aid in cooling period brakes which I will be running. Who is with me Option 4 (there are 2 version of this option the ones posted and later version for the USA Spec 280z which is more curved)
Reason I have posted these options up as I have one of each of these spoilers. I have not included other IMSA type or the number of ZG types that were used in period as there are just so many different looks - even the Macau 240z that had a very odd custom front end used back in the day.
Last edited by nzeder; 03-31-2014 at 09:09 AM.
Mike L
Great info Nzder, much discussion on the weekend over Ricky Coopers 240Z front area and bumper/spoiler, etc as i don't believe it to be to T&C which seems to be as you say above? infact not just his spoiler but the whole front of his Z? Ricky says its period but that doesn't count under T&C or K?
You are correct in that HMC front spoilers don't have to be T&C although my Mustang still is and will remain so, we have added our own front spoiler rule over and above T&C to give the cars that historic Trans Am look as seen on the new Roger Williams 69 Camaro that raced on the weekend, but our spoiler rules are quite detailed and in-fact we stole them direct from the 1970 Trans Am rule book so still "era" compliant which is important!! Also, all HMC front spoilers are an addition and we don't allow for the remove of any other front sheet metal so these items must remain to also comply with T&C.
PS: I wish more would do there homework before they build a MSNZ compliant historic race car as you have done
Dale M
Did I just read that even if it is period, it doesn't count for T & C?Originally Posted by Kiwiboss
Had a chat today with Tony and the question of originality cropped up.
The conundrum is this. If you have a rare car where replacement body panels are impossible to source, is it better to fit replacement fibreglass panels and store the decent originals under the bench, thus incurring the wrath of the purists, who seem happy to criticise, but don't ever have to risk destroying their own pride and joy, or, do you accept that you are better off not racing at all and depriving the public of seeing what may be an iconic car?
At times it is a tougher call than some realise. Cars that may have been fairly common in their day are now remarkably scarce, so risking them on a race track isn't as easy as it was in period.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with the front of Ricky's car (and don't forget he was the innocent victim of a race mishap that damaged several panels, when it was still the original colour) as to me, it now looks totally period and is a credit to him. As has been pointed out before, I can't see him getting a race advantage out of it.
Sorry Mike for butting in, but I really admire your total dedication to purity and anyone else that puts that amount of effort into a build.
For many competitors, bearing in mind there is an element of risk attached, they see it as an expensive, time consuming gamble when all they want to do is race the car, not build it. Others like yourself may enjoy the research and build process rather more than the racing.
With more pure cars out there, it will certainly strengthen that sector of the sport.
With regards to Ricky's car is that only issue as you see it?
I have been a zed owner for a long time, not as long as Ricky who was driving/racing/playing with cars while I was still at school - primary school I bet too, but in the 21 years I have been a zed owner I have studied the marque a fair bit, I have collected a lot of info/catalogs/books and recently some period info to assist with my application for Schedule K
Ricky's wheels 15" and in the factory sport option style = check (I arrange the custom group buy in the correct offset)
Ricky's rear spoiler = check (there were 3 variations over the years from 1970-1978)
Ricky's engine L28 = check (engine available/FIA homologated in 1975)
Ricky's triple mikuni carb = check (sport option Mikuni's however some also used Webers or Dellortos in period too)
Ricky's gearbox = check (standard Nissan spec, close ratio option)
Ricky's diff = check (standard 260z/280z spec with FIA approved ratios/LSD)
Ricky's brake = check (all 4pot alloy bolt together calipers on 2 piece rotors as in period)
All other parts on Ricky's car is correct for the period of the car - and yes the front is not 70's period correct it is a common mid 80's type that first appeared in Australia I believe.
Now here is 1970's image (period correct spec) of a IMSA GTU spec'ed zed car (could be 240z/260z or 280z) this has the full GTU body kit that was and is still available today.
How is Ricky's front any different to this? Ok not based on the ZG longer nose like on the Red 240z that Earl Cruickshank races. The ZG as it is known has the longer front (all FRP from factory) and over fenders - these Fairlady 240Z (G-Nose) as they were marketed in Japan) were built to homologate the longer nose cone and over fenders.
Here is a pic of stock ZG
Last edited by nzeder; 03-31-2014 at 10:39 AM.
Mike L
My other zed has a factory ZG kits (of the factory 5 pieces I have 4 with a custom made lower our of steel, I live on a gravel road = FRP would be gone in no time) The factory light covers for both the stock nose and the ZG nose are moon beams now days - I sold one set of NOS ZG light cover to help purchase the race car that is how much they go for $1000 USD a set. The remaining 4 factory parts to the ZG kit I have are NLA. There is a place in Japan that makes the best replica parts but they will cost you $6000 NZD. So most ZG you see are one piece replicas as pointed out by Ray - too much of a risk to even think about going near a track.
I got a NOS bonnet our of Japan for my road 260z but Nissan said that was it - no more so I must have gotten one of the last bonnets out of Japan. When I got my ZG light covers NOS out of Japan I was told there were only 5 sets left from that supplier so I purchased 2 sets (only have one set now for the road car but did double my investment on the sale)
My road 260z has replica type A over fenders - but I did not like bolt on look - so had custom steel ones rolled up and installed.
Here is pic of the other zed - still a work in progress too (17 years so far - keep purchasing other zed and motorbikes to shift my focus from this car + keep having kids, I know the problem not spending enough time in the sheds working on the car so 4 kids I need two more cars so I can leave them one each)
That is a very old pic - test fitting the rims with no springs in to check flare clearances before painting - still a shell in my shed at home (sold the Red 240z above to build the shed to house this car)
Last edited by nzeder; 03-31-2014 at 11:56 AM.
Mike L
This is a great thread Mike and valuable for anyone building a Zed. Keep it going.
Yes Nzeder, great job you’re doing and very informative and I admit my knowledge of 240’s is very limited hence great to have you on here!!
Personally I have no issue’s racing with Rickys Z and would race side by side with him any day of the week, he is one of the cleanest and smoothest drivers I know, but I keep getting question "only" about his frontal panel/spoiler work and no rear bumpers but I don’t know the answer, when I read T&C as attached below I get it as “original materials as per STANDARD SERIES PRODUCTION VEHICLE” and then this gets over ridden with “Period modifications are permissible”
3:2 Exterior The vehicle shall be smartly maintained and have all exterior trim in place. It must retain bumpers if originally fitted. All panels,bumpers, mouldings, spoilers etc. must be made of the original materials as per the STANDARD series Production vehicle. eg; steel panels must be retained if originally fitted. Period modifications are permissible.
(1) Only rear wings (aerofoil) which were available for the car in period may be fitted. These must be
made of materials from that period. ie; no Kevlar.
(2) Any/all modifications must be in period (refer definitions).
But when I read what “Period” means it states when “first used actively in Motorsport Competition in New Zealand, or a minimum of three(3) separate overseas examples” so with that being the case does Rickys Z fit these descriptions hence making it correct as it currently sits? your help and thoughts appreciated Nzeder!!
“Period” means the era (years) during which a vehicle model and/or its components were first used actively in Motorsport Competition in New Zealand, or a minimum of three(3) separate overseas examples, and
Dale M
Hi Dale, now that is interesting. You see I have never taken the rules as you have pointed out. I will quote your post from above.
I have never read the rules that way. I read it as "stand series production vehicle" without the other over the top of that. This is how I come to the conclusion that an escort with bubble arches (forest flare) or an ISMA 240z (pic off car #33 above, that car in question is a good story) is not T&C as they don't have standard series production body work. The should however fit schedule k if all other components fit schedule k ie escorts with arches must run 13" rims as that is all that was used in period with the flares."original materials as per STANDARD SERIES PRODUCTION VEHICLE” and then this gets over ridden with “Period modifications are permissible”
Now to answer your point about NZ racing. The 240z did not start running here in NZ until after the Datsun Z Club formed in 1981 and it took a few years to the marque accepted by others so 240z started to actively race at taccoc, datsun z club, lotus club and other until mid 80's so for NZ racing period correct.
If Ricky's car is to represent the period "era" of one of the international zeds then sure ideally the front should change. I guess after Ricky's car was damaged (only panel not bent was the roof) then he could have imported an isma body kit like the car above thus giving him 14" more width in the rear 7" a side, running 15x15 rims or 15x12 for wets and have hugh grip and therefore be faster than he is now but still be 100% 1975 period correct.
I have thought about building an isma 240z after all they won the 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1979 GTU driver championships and manufacturers championship in 1975, 1976 and 1979.
Mike L
Dale, what you have pointed out its basically one of the issues we have always had regarding T & C rules. There are anomalies and the wording in the rules and MSNZ manual have always had these problems.
Way back, the book said "cylinder block and head material MUST be standard" (my emphasis).
A page or two later - "period modifications are allowed". So fitting an alloy cross-flow head to a Mini or an MGB is not allowed on one page and allowed on another.
These issues have been around for at least the 18 years I have been involved in the series.
"A minimum of 3 overseas examples" of something also means that you can't build a Marina V8 for example, if the factory only produced one.
Good point Ray and then the definition of
It all gets a bit messed up when you see statements like "Standard" then "Period modifications are permissible" so which is it? Does the body work have to be standard or period modified or both? If this is the case forest flares were a period mod as is an IMSA body kit on a 240z or wide body Porsches, MGB etc.“Standard” means a vehicle identifiable as belonging to a production series, with a minimum
model run of 100 identical units, distinguishable by external general lines of the bodywork and
identical mechanical construction of the engine, transmission and suspension to the wheels
So under T&C I was under the impression I would have "Standard" body work and for a NZ new car like my 260z that includes the front Urethane chin spoiler and the rear spoiler like Ricky has. I could not change the front spoiler for any other type as that is clearly stated as 3.2(1) only rears can be changed for other period rear spoilers.
However with the way Dale has pointed out after the statement about standard series production vehicle there is the "Period modifications are permissible." so a period modification was to remove the bumper which part of that whole line trumps the other?
I thought I had these rules down....now I am not sure...no wonder people say to hell with it all let just race and forget these COD, rules for this and that. When the rules themselves say you can't do X in the first part then say X is allowed later WTF
Mike L
This is where we need a "tech-line" direct to MSNZ so anyone can phone(or E-mail) for a definition!!
Dale M
The 100 examples rule is equally flawed, given that the of various full sized Marcos models prior to the 1980's reincarnation, out of 13 major (production) variants, only 4 exceeded 100 units and 7 had less than 50 (plus two or three well known prototypes that I haven't even counted). Are they still classics? Of course they are. The ex-Jackie Stewart "Ugly Duckling" was one of just 9 built, but it was later raced successfully by Jem Marsh in UK Historic events.
Even when the models where numbers were higher, it is doubtful that 100 were ever identical, given the various options on offer.
Most were never homologated in period anyway making Schedule K a bit of a mission. I investigated it briefly at one stage and decided that there was no point whatever given that I can race the car anyway.
Fair call Dale, but I think most classic/historic people would prefer it went via a panel of people with sufficient knowledge and interest who at least understand why. Putting the option of a definition or ruling to one person is back into small black moustache territory!
Brilliant thread Mike, I'm really enjoying this.Another pic of the ducted front on a racecar with ZG over fenders fitted.
So what are the general con censors on this forum? I am leaning towards the ducted as that is what most race teams in the USA used + that allows me to run ducts to the brakes which aid in cooling period brakes which I will be running. Who is with me Option 4 (there are 2 version of this option the ones posted and later version for the USA Spec 280z which is more curved)
Reason I have posted these options up as I have one of each of these spoilers. I have not included other IMSA type or the number of ZG types that were used in period as there are just so many different looks - even the Macau 240z that had a very odd custom front end used back in the day.
This would be my choice for the front spoiler. Its period correct, as you say, and looks fantastic on the Z. One of the nicest aspects of these cars, in my opinion, is the nose, and this spoiler compliments the nose really well, and doesn't detract from all the nice shapes and curves.
My understanding is as you've written here Mike. Using the Escort as an example, you can either fit larger diameter wheels as per T&C, but you can't fit the forest flares. But under Schedule K, you can fit the flares, but you must then run original diameter wheels, as raced on in period. I view Schedule K as being similar to FIA Appendix K, in that what you're essentially building is a car that is a mechanical and aesthetic replica of a car as it raced in period.
A common sight in NZ classic racing, is when people mix and match T&C with Schedule K: eg (using the Escort again) they'll fit the forest flares as allowed under Schedule K (but not T&C), but then also go up a size in wheel diameter, as allowed under T&C (but not Schedule K).
But that just my interpretation of the rules, and it seems I'm just as confused as everyone else.
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