ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports

[ERC]

158 Tony Vujnovich ARROW FORD PERANA
159 Glen Thompson ARROW MG B SPORTS
169 Neville Thompson AES MG BGT
173 David Herrick AES BMW 2002
179 Glen Thompson AES FORD Escort RS2000
181 Ron Findlay ARROW FORD PERANA
185 John Nuthall AES ALFA GTV 105
188 Paul Halford ARROW PORSCHE 911
189 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 7
198 John Tomlin AES TRIUMPH 2500PI
213 Dave Mallin AES MG BGT
220 Gordon Burr AES ALFA GT AM
222 Bruce Jones AES FORD CAPRI
229 Chris Browne AES ALFAROMEO ALFASUD TI
231 John Hudson AES BMW 2002
233 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
240 Earl Cruickshank ARROW DATSUN 240Z
246 Tony Olissoff ARROW ALFA SUD Ti
260 Ron Findlay ARROW DATSUN 260Z
274 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
279 Barry Hare ARROW ROVER VITESSE
280 Ken Williams AES MERCEDES 280CE
281 Paul Chisholm AES VW Golf GTI
289 John Ure AES JAGUAR XJ12
295 Mal Chamberlain AES FORD ESCORT
317 Colin Craig AES FORD ESCORT MK II
331 John Hudson ARROW BMW 320
333 Rogan Hampson ARROW COBRA OHLSEN
339 Tony Sturm AES MG B SPORTS
400 David Frith AES Alfa Alfa 33 1.7
404 Andy Wallace AES BMW 2002Tii
410 Gordon Burr ARROW FERRARI 308GT4LM
431 Phil Josephs AES ROVER 220T
444 Derek Cecil AES BMW E30 318
502 Steve Cowie ARROW ALFA GT
567 Gordon Burr ARROW FORD ESCORT
616 Dave Mallin ARROW MG BGT V8
711 Vishu Singh AES ALFA SPRINT
739 Grant Kern ARROW MG B V8 SPORTS
778 Rex Ferrall ARROW TRIUMPH TR8
783 Peter Gunter ARROW SKODA
833 Rob Hunkin AES ALFA 33
866 Francois Cronje AES RENAULT R8 GORDINI
888 Peter Hannaford AES FIAT 130 TC
891 Chris Hunkin AES ALFA 33
910 Simon Mills AES ALFA SUD
944 Paul Madeley ARROW PORSCHE 944T
400b Colin Craig AES ALFA 33
51b Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
833b Edward Hunkin AES ALFA 33
891b Edward Hunkin AES ALFA 33
8B Arthur Vowles ARROW ALFA DUETTO
81 Richard McCarthy ARROW LOTUS 7 S4

88 registered, fully paid up drivers; a couple of slow payers; but currently representing 105 cars. Three drivers think they have number 8 or want number 8, but Mark Parsons legitimately has it! Next round - December 8th TACCOC Hampton Downs Outsource Christmas meeting, traditionally one of our better supported events.

The Andy Turpin XJS Jaguar has been purchased by Derek Moore. We are really sorry that Andy has given it up as he used to happily collect stop/go penalties for breaking our speed bar and would stick a black flag on the side of the car each time he got pinged! One of the nicest guys ever to have graced the series.

[Spgeti]

Well, great field Ray....For the Italian lover Paul Halford in his real Alfa Giulia GTA and Gordon in his replica GTAm. Good luck for the weekend. Cheers Bruce

[kiwi285]

ERC, I have sent you a PM.

[ERC]

As an adjunct to the thread on cars deemed to be "Hot Rods", maybe it is opportune to state one or two of the rules under which we run.

For the critics who believe we have no rules, nothing could be further from the truth, as we worked very closely with the late Ian Snellgrove to produce a set of rules that would be acceptable for a sanctioned series, before series were indeed sanctioned.

These are just a few paraphrased snippets.

Tyres must be DoT rated road tyres with a road legal tread depth.

Ideally, cars should be to a WoF standard but a WoF isn't required. (For obvious reasons, given the number of cars trailered.)

A passenger seat must be fitted, though it does not have to be a race seat nor match the driver's seat.

Carpets may be removed.

In Arrow Wheels, roll protection is mandatory.

In AES, roll protection is advised.

Harness type belts are mandatoory

In addition to MSNZ rules regarding rear lights in wet weather, ERC also requires working front lights in wet weather for all handicap races.

Interior door trims are required.

Rear seats may be removed particulary if made of foam as these constitute an extreme fire risk.

Cars ideally should conform to T & C but we do not make it compulsory.

A CoD is not required.

Invitations may be extended to cars that are outside our core of European cars.

As an invitation series, the committee reserves the right to withdraw any invitation if any car/driver combination is deemed to be outside of the spirit of the rules either by car or driver behaviour.

[ERC]

Now over 90 registered, paid up drivers.

Seems that the Living Legends HRC meeting is now a week later than on our original calendar. Now the last weekend of March.

A good turnout for the TACCOC meeting and despite the most erratic day's weather in a long, long time, most cars appeared to stay on the black stuff, though by the time of the last wet Arrows race, following on from the wetter HMC/U3L grid of just 4 cars, we only managed a modest 9 out of the original 21, with two of them - Ricky Cooper and John Sampson, doing duty in both races.

Thanks to TACCOC and Deb's team (doing double duty with Pukekohe on the same day) and all drivers and we wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a happy new year. See you at Taupo Jan 12th!

[ERC]

Seems that F1 have been casting a look at our series rules - but they obviously haven't read them all.

"Last round is now to be double points."

Then they need to drop the lowest score and finally, make all races handicaps!!!!

My job is nearly done...

[RacerT]

Merry Christmas ERC Ray and Paula!
We may not always see eye to eye, (which is odd as we are the same height?), but at least we can discuss matters in an irrational manner.
All the best for the coming season.

[ERC]

Thanks Tony. Best wishes to Sue & Claire too.

Always enjoy our chats! Even those in a rational manner... Not sure when I'll be on track again though, but at least I can still take pics - and make a nuisance of myself with the keyboard, though some would prefer that I didn't!

As we have all proved, there is space within NZ motorsport for different philosophies and as long as each has sufficient support, none are inherently wrong.

[ERC]

We have just had registration number 100 so are coping well, but so many drivers seem now to have long term car problems - some repairs taking over a year - that getting 45 cars to the grid at Pukekohe Feb 22/23 was a great turnout.

However, it looks very much as though we will only run one grid next season, which at least means a profitable one for promoters and I hope a good one for spectators. One full grid has to be better than two half grids.

Despite the occasional negative comments from some quarters on our series, we put forward a suggestion or proposal to the Hampton Downs Festival Committee regarding 2015 event. We are pleased to say that they have accepted the series (one grid) for weekend two only. We sincerely hope the AMCO Mini will make a welcome return...

We are particularly pleased that the committee has also accepted our proposal of practice and a scratch race on day one, the remaining four races will be handicaps and we expect one from each day will be for series points.

We sincerely believe this will add value to the Festival on several counts and we applaud the committee for making a brave decision that may well attract criticism from some quarters - but we hope those who delight in criticising the Series can see the positive benefits.

[Kiwiboss]

We have just had registration number 100 so are coping well, but so many drivers seem now to have long term car problems - some repairs taking over a year - that getting 45 cars to the grid at Pukekohe Feb 22/23 was a great turnout.

However, it looks very much as though we will only run one grid next season, which at least means a profitable one for promoters and I hope a good one for spectators. One full grid has to be better than two half grids.

Despite the occasional negative comments from some quarters on our series, we put forward a suggestion or proposal to the Hampton Downs Festival Committee regarding 2015 event. We are pleased to say that they have accepted the series (one grid) for weekend two only. We sincerely hope the AMCO Mini will make a welcome return...

We are particularly pleased that the committee has also accepted our proposal of practice and a scratch race on day one, the remaining four races will be handicaps and we expect one from each day will be for series points.

We sincerely believe this will add value to the Festival on several counts and we applaud the committee for making a brave decision that may well attract criticism from some quarters - but we hope those who delight in criticising the Series can see the positive benefits.

OH GOD, the death of NZ's only reasonably properly run historic Festival!! oh well!! let the rot set in i guess, hoping it wouldn't have happened so soon but had to come i presume!! Oh well, us true blooded racers have had our fun i guess, time to move on!!

No criticism about your series Ray, its just a inbreed no enforceable rules race series shouldn't be at this event when you have loads of other regular day to day meetings you can race at anytime!! i guess now you can push for other modern class's to join you!!

Park the Mustang, may as well start building my MK 1 Escort with a rover V8, 6 spd holinger, quick change diff, carbon fiber grease nipples and 20" wheels now!!!!!!!!!! and as long as the committee likes me im in, if not OH no! no entry allowed!!

Dale(i live in the wrong country for proper historic motor-sport)M

[Andrew Metford]

Dale, when your "purist" class can produce a grid of 45 cars, then you can shout your mouth off. Until then I think you may want to quieten down a little. If all the other grids are half empty like yours, YOU will end up paying more to race YOUR car, and so will your not-so-many mates, because the event promotors need to cover their costs somehow, and we all know they can't do it from the gate takings. Unfortunately classic motor racing in NZ cannot afford to be so elitist as you desire, because there are simply not enough so-inclined racers. If popularity by grid numbers is any indication of the wider classic racing communities' choice of car spec, then your grid is well in the minority, and coming out with such dribble as post #50 will do nothing to encourage prospective entrants to join your grid, god forbid they have an out-of-era tyre valve!!!!

If you're honest with yourself, the average punter in the stands has got no idea whether your car or any other car on you grid is period correct or not, and I'm sorry to say they probably don't care either. Most of them are just not that into it, they just want to see old cars racing. Half of them probably don't even know that some of the cars on Rays' grid are quite far from original either, and that's because they don't go to count rivets, they go to see old cars racing.

You know first hand how hard it is to get a full grid because you haven't done it yet and don't look like doing it for a long time either, so you should be congratulating Ray on getting a full grid and getting an invite to the Festival, not shit-bagging him just because you don't like the cars or rules in his series.

I like your workmanship and presentation of your cars, a lot of people can take a leaf out of your book there, but your attitude towards other classes leaves a lot to be desired.

[AMCO72]

I think Dale must have been having his period when he wrote that extraordinary piece that Jaffa has responded to. The points he raises would take me all day to respond to, but I will just say this. If he wants to pursue his dream of period correct cars racing together, thats fine, but like religion, don't shove it down my throat!!!! And as for saying, that the inclusion of cars, the like of which race in ERC's series, into the Festival is going to spell it's doom, well words fail me.

I don't particularly like hordes of BMW E30's either, but by golly they help to pay the bills and allow the rest of us to race at a reasonable cost.

Have been reading the biography of Walter Chrysler, and in his early working days on the railroads he learnt a very valuable lesson......'never reply to a letter while you are angry'. Could be a case in point here in post #50.

[nzeder]

What I don't get is why bag the whole series/grids that ERC put together. Have you walked around the pits and check the cars in the AES and Arrows. These cars that cause so many issues with some you can cound on one maybe 2 hands. So that means the other 90% of paid up ERC members have hot rods too? Come on...really. As stated who cares we are only in this for the fun, well I am/will be, I work for wages in a non car related industry and things are tight these days so building a car takes time and I for one want to have fun on the track and if the cost go up due to grids size then it will mean less events that I will be able to enter. So lets have larger grids to keep our sport/hobby alive and if that means some hot rods race so be it.

[Jac Mac]

Where do I go to get these fancy carbon fiber grease nipples, they are the one 'thing' I must have by the looks of it! might need them to keep my arm wrestling gear up to competitive standards...

[nigel watts]

Dale, when your "purist" class can produce a grid of 45 cars, then you can shout your mouth off. Until then I think you may want to quieten down a little. If all the other grids are half empty like yours, YOU will end up paying more to race YOUR car, and so will your not-so-many mates, because the event promotors need to cover their costs somehow, and we all know they can't do it from the gate takings. Unfortunately classic motor racing in NZ cannot afford to be so elitist as you desire, because there are simply not enough so-inclined racers. If popularity by grid numbers is any indication of the wider classic racing communities' choice of car spec, then your grid is well in the minority, and coming out with such dribble as post #50 will do nothing to encourage prospective entrants to join your grid, god forbid they have an out-of-era tyre valve!!!!

If you're honest with yourself, the average punter in the stands has got no idea whether your car or any other car on you grid is period correct or not, and I'm sorry to say they probably don't care either. Most of them are just not that into it, they just want to see old cars racing. Half of them probably don't even know that some of the cars on Rays' grid are quite far from original either, and that's because they don't go to count rivets, they go to see old cars racing.

You know first hand how hard it is to get a full grid because you haven't done it yet and don't look like doing it for a long time either, so you should be congratulating Ray on getting a full grid and getting an invite to the Festival, not shit-bagging him just because you don't like the cars or rules in his series.

I like your workmanship and presentation of your cars, a lot of people can take a leaf out of your book there, but your attitude towards other classes leaves a lot to be desired.

Well said JAFA. I'm a spectator & agree with you 100%

[Habu]

Well said JAFA. I'm a spectator & agree with you 100%

As a spectator, I have to agree with the sentiments of those commenting on this thread about the size of fields in "classic" car racing. Unfortunately Mr Mathers, having period correct racing, and cars specific to an era in a country the size of NZ, and providing a grid full of cars is a very tall order. If you detest the inclusion of the ERC classes so passionately perhaps an International Vehicle Passport and a trip to FIA style events may be more to your taste?

It is my opinion that the majority of spectators want to see full grids, of "classic" cars racing, and levels of performance that provide a spectacle for the paying punter, and pleasure for the enthusiasts competing.

[ERC]

Thanks for the support guys.

We can't produce a large grid of noisy spectacular period correct V8s but there is more to classic racing than a noisy V8.

I hope the guys with the two Renault Gordinis run, as trying to keep those fragile, scarce, Frog cars on the track, is much more difficult than a Mustang, where every part is still available. Hot Rods? I don't think so. Are Mal Clark's Rover, Skidmark Parson's TR8, or Paul Halford's Porsche Hot Rods? Is my Marcos or Rod Hemming's TVR, AMCO's Mini, Derek Moore's XJS, any of the Alfa 33s and Suds? Arthur's Alfa, John Sampson's Capri? Brian Yates Porsche? Peter Robinson, Pete Bromley, John Hudson, Zac Lawrence BMWs? Just check out the list earlier and tell us which cars are Hot Rods. Oh, I started a thread for that some time ago didn't I.


Just for the record Dale, where did you get the idea that there were no enforceable rules? Are you even aware that over 50 cars have not been allowed to join the series and there are others who have been banished? Have you even read the series rules, which were initially drawn up with the full co-operation of the late Ian Snellgrove and checked over by a lawyer?

Just because one grid is less pure (in your eyes) does not mean that any other Festival class has to change, so why the rant? Tell us again just how many HMC cars ran at the pre Christmas TACCOC meeting? And how many of those were already running in the ERC Classes anyway?

Part of our pitch to the Festival committee was that if there were 10,000 spectators at the Festival, 9,500 of them would never have seen the ERC cars racing at other events.

[crunch]

Well said JAFA. I'm a spectator & agree with you 100%

Well indeed...hasn't Dale's post from out of left field sparked up the forum??

Once you manage to get over the unusual nature of it, and I assuming his account wasn't hacked...I read it again.

I can understand people becoming very emotive and making such comments when they are talking about their passion, what drives them in this sport. We all do it on here time-to-time.
What I can say is that MSNZ applauds the HMC series for what it is doing. They are trying to preserve history, and this is part of the mSNZ strategic plan. As yes; MSNZ are helping him in many respects because it is what all the members every year at AGCM tell the Historic Commission is it's role. HMC are not alone in heading down the purist route persay, we have Historic Sports Sedans, Formula Atlantic and Shellsport Revival all attempting the same thing...to preserve cars in the tech. spec they were when they run at the "forefront" of motorsport in NZ. It's a huge undertaking and I am impressed that people that on the challenge.

On the other hand we have the successful over a long period of time ERC series. It caters for many of our members that cannot/do not want to run a period historic car. It also has an integral place in our motorsport framework.
Then we have circuits and promoters that primarily need to ensure the venue remains so all these cars have an active museum to play in. So when such a successful meeting as the Festival is created and continues to be such a success, every one wants to be part of it, and so we should. It is a showcase of our Historic motorsport...and commercial realities tend to blur what that is.

Many years ago at a Forum in Auckland I asked the meeting to tell me the difference between a club car and a T&C car. It wasn't aimed at anyone or any series. No real answer emerged, and maybe still wouldn't today. From my circuit racing career, most of the ERC cars are what I would call club cars, such as what I had that use to race at clubmans race meetings. But that was 25 years ago, and clubmans race meetings in the North Island at least; seem to be a thing of the past (due to commercial costs of hiring a circuit?). interestingly IN THE SOUTH, cLUBMANS MEETINGS STILL GO STRONG AND THE ONES I HAVE VIEWED HAVE A LoT OF CARS I WOULD PRESUME WOULD FIT nicely into ERC. (Sorry, hit the caps lock button for a moment)

So a long winded way of saying I understand what Dale is trying to say, and I understand why Ray's baby the ERC is in existence. Both are catering to needs that competitors and the sport wants. I guess the only ground that is the issue is where do they play and at what type of meeting. At the moment that is really up to the promoter and circuit owners.

Central Muscle Cars are not an Historic class and never will be, they are modern technology in old clothes, but does the spectator know that...or even care?
Ray tells me that quite a few of his cars wouldn't get a COD (many have one) so is that a line between club cars and H&C cars? I think that is part of the reason COD's were instigated 30 odd years ago, does it still fit today?

In the end; Dale may I suggest you change the gin you are drinking as it affects your spellin' in post #50 and try to have a less stressful day at work. And everyone else just take the comments for what they are, a non-personal summary of one persons view of historic motorsport.

Look forward to seeing both Ray and Dale (and others) in Auckland on the 18th

[ERC]

Thanks Crunch. The CoD issue has been around for a while now and the fact that two thirds of our cars do not have one does not mean that most would not qualify.

Classic racing as opposed to Historic (and even Thoroughbred) racing may need to be defined and I have written to Crunch on that score.

Historic cars or those built to period rules are by default, also Classics. However, those deemed Classic may not be deemed Historic and we see our grid as Classic and Thoroughbred, not Historic.

Historic cars may well NEED a CoD, or a documented provenance, a Classic car may need a different sort of endorsement or it may need nothing other than the acceptance of either the Series or race promoters.

We have always supported the HMC concept and still do, but we also believe that what we run is also acceptable to the majority.

I accept that one or two of our cars are indeed marginal, but if our entry for the Festival is looking to be oversubscribed, it will be an opportunity to tighten up the eligibility criteria, having then reached a level that allows us to do so. Just remember that for the last few years, we had two grids because there were too many cars for one grid and only BMW have come close to that in the broad classic arena. HMC has been propped up by the U3L grid, all of whom already race in other series anyway. It has not brought out a single 'new' classic to the grids.

We are never complacent and over the years have massaged our rules and eligibility to ensure longevity and the very fact that every points race is a handicap sends a very clear message that this is indeed chocolate fish racing.

Dale, you'll be more than welcome at our May 10th awards dinner, as will any other HMC driver (you might even round up enough for a table of your own) and you'll probably enjoy yourself, but be aware, no one is safe from having the mickey taken out of them!... In fact, in recognition the support and your hard work in the classic arena, you and John McKechnie are invited as guests of the series.

[Frosty5]

OH GOD, the death of NZ's only reasonably properly run historic Festival!! oh well!! let the rot set in i guess, hoping it wouldn't have happened so soon but had to come i presume!! Oh well, us true blooded racers have had our fun i guess, time to move on!!

WOW Dale, I'd love some of that bait you used when I go fishing, you hooked some real biggin's there!! However at the end of the day people just want to race and have fum and that should be the focus. Sure, have the period correct vehicles (just love 'em)and the likes of ERC's classes but please lets not get to precious about it all. It's more fun on top of the dirt than below it!!!!!
Dave Graham