ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports

[ERC]

I think we have been down this track before, particularly with commission members! The $240 cost is the new rate for a CoD.

Don't get me wrong, we don't need another form as such, but the point is that the CoD has been increasingly worthless for us, increasingly valuable for HMC and historic single seaters and cars that conform to Schedule K.

The 14 page COD system is fine when the clutch diameter is important, but not for the majority of road cars.

Getting original bits for many 40+ year old cars is getting increasingly difficult, or even 25+, especially exterior and interior trim. Although the H & Commission have slackened off in many respects, there are still a few too many issues in a series such as ours, to make conformity mandatory, so we tend to invoke the "Spirit of the Series" clause and it works well. The fact that 95% of our cars may well conform doesn't really explain why only 15% have bothered to get a COD.

Put quite simply, if you could wander down to your local scrapyard and get a decent front bumper, wing or radiator grille or the chrome trim, for reasonable money, you would. But you can't. So if you decide to hide your increasingly expensive bits under the bench and fit either fibreglass replacements or even nothing at all, why wouldn't you? Better to have cars out on the track racing than hidden in garages as they are now deemed too expensive to risk.

Who is going to pay the $600 a side for your scarce chrome trims, easily damaged on the track? The guy who leans on you who or who has a bit of brake or brain fade? I don't think so.

Why is original window winding mechanism so important? What is a thoroughbred car? (T & C implies "Thoroughbred & Classic", but no one has yet decided what constitutes a thoroughbred - and I am not going to try either.)

All these issues including performance modifications are dealt with. It is called handicap racing, as we accept there is no such thing as a level playing field. Others use that tired old cliche when they really need to stand back and smell the roses and accept that a 1500cc Alfa Sud fitted with an engine from an Alfa 33 still isn't going to beat Racing Ray Williams, Tony Roberts, Derek Atkinson, Neil Tolich, Mike Sexton or Bruce Manon, no matter how hard they try.

Sensible racers know that sooner or later you are going to get panel damage, whether you drive sensibly or not. Rubbing door handles and ripping off mirrors may be OK for big budget Aussie V8s, but is not OK if you are running a TVR, Renault Gordini, Fiat 128, Mk 7 Jaguar, '65 Zephyr or these days, even an Alfa Sud.

For T & C to be valid, it has to differentiate sufficiently between Schedule K and what the drivers actually want - not that that is an easy task either.

Our rules work for us and I presume that our drivers are happy enough as I don't get them pestering me to change the rules, even though ocasionally, some have grizzled when we had to move forwards and accept that pre 1977 and run ons is no longer viable for us. We have had to allow in later cars - or fade away - and we still don't have over full grids.

[nzeder]

Although I am not actively racing a car currently, still finishing off the 1/2 completed project I picked up, I have been around as "pit bitch" since I returned to NZ back in 2003 and only did a few classic trails in a car I don't have anymore. I raced back in the mid/late 90's in my 20's just club stuff but always following T&C type cars.

I have read the MSNZ Manual over all these years - always around the class of cars/racing I love that is T & C based. The rules have change a lot over the years. I don't think there an issues with the T&C rules as they are today. I think the issue is as they have changed over the years the cars, either have not (ie no longer conform to the current rules) or have even moved further away from the older based rules (resulting in cars that the owners would not like to return back to the current rules as that would involve large costs finding now rare part and/or decrease in performance)

I my self will not be getting a COD right away when my car is ready. Why some might ask? It comes down to how people interpret the rules of T&C - to me they are very clear with the current wordings. Brakes are "Free" then there is definition of this as follows

“Free (part)” means that the original part as well as its function may be removed or replaced
with a new part on condition that the new part has no additional function relative to the original
part and must be from the same era and be shown to be available, or used in period, on the
make and model the car depicts, and

I have highlighted the bit that to me is the most abused part of the rules - this is very clear to me. My car can't be 100% T&C compliant if I run Wilwood calipers which are on the car. Everything else on my car will be. I don't have the budget right now to get correct period calipers - and I hope to one day but as the series I will be running in does not require me to have a COD then I will not apply for a COD until I have the period calipers.

My reason for saying my car will not be T&C compliant is simple - the car is a pre 77 and as such Wilwood did not exist so are not "from the same era or shown to be available" and therefore were not "used in period, on the make or model the car depicts"

I have managed to secure 1 pair of period calipers that need rebuilding (and I don't have the spare budget right now to do this when I want to finish the car over winter and get back out there + I still have some big ticket items still to purchase aka MyLabs transponder - so if anyone has a second hand one they are parting with let me know ) and I know of a second pair of these factory period calipers (one of my old pairs I sold back in the 90's) that I hope to secure one day too - but for now I will be running the brakes as they are on the car now aka Wilwood = not T&C compliant for my make/model and 100% of pre 77 cars if read this rule correctly.

So if my reading of the rule "Free (Part)" is correct then 99% of T&C cars that are pre 77 that I have seen at the track over the last 20 years are not compliant as most are running Wilwood -

Why do we run Wilwood?

Simple that is what most of us can afford as dropping $3000 for a pair of new period correct AP Historic range of calipers is out of the question and we want to stop our cars safely lap after lap.

Sorry I missed the last weekend Ray - Saturday winter meetings = kids winter sport where this Dad is a coach of a 6 year old football (soccer) team so I can't make Saturday's. I have watch some in car footage of the last AES/Arrows grid and I must say - a close bunch at the end crossing the line so well done on the season and handicapping.

[RogerH]

I think we have been down this track before, particularly with commission members! The $240 cost is the new rate for a CoD.

This is not correct Ray - the new fee structure came through at $240 for CODs but a number of people complained and through the efforts of the H&C Commission it was subsequently amended to $97.

[RogerH]

Although I am not actively racing a car currently, still finishing off the 1/2 completed project I picked up, I have been around as "pit bitch" since I returned to NZ back in 2003 and only did a few classic trails in a car I don't have anymore. I raced back in the mid/late 90's in my 20's just club stuff but always following T&C type cars.

I have read the MSNZ Manual over all these years - always around the class of cars/racing I love that is T & C based. The rules have change a lot over the years. I don't think there an issues with the T&C rules as they are today. I think the issue is as they have changed over the years the cars, either have not (ie no longer conform to the current rules) or have even moved further away from the older based rules (resulting in cars that the owners would not like to return back to the current rules as that would involve large costs finding now rare part and/or decrease in performance)

I my self will not be getting a COD right away when my car is ready. Why some might ask? It comes down to how people interpret the rules of T&C - to me they are very clear with the current wordings. Brakes are "Free" then there is definition of this as follows



I have highlighted the bit that to me is the most abused part of the rules - this is very clear to me. My car can't be 100% T&C compliant if I run Wilwood calipers which are on the car. Everything else on my car will be. I don't have the budget right now to get correct period calipers - and I hope to one day but as the series I will be running in does not require me to have a COD then I will not apply for a COD until I have the period calipers.

My reason for saying my car will not be T&C compliant is simple - the car is a pre 77 and as such Wilwood did not exist so are not "from the same era or shown to be available" and therefore were not "used in period, on the make or model the car depicts"

I have managed to secure 1 pair of period calipers that need rebuilding (and I don't have the spare budget right now to do this when I want to finish the car over winter and get back out there + I still have some big ticket items still to purchase aka MyLabs transponder - so if anyone has a second hand one they are parting with let me know ) and I know of a second pair of these factory period calipers (one of my old pairs I sold back in the 90's) that I hope to secure one day too - but for now I will be running the brakes as they are on the car now aka Wilwood = not T&C compliant for my make/model and 100% of pre 77 cars if read this rule correctly.

So if my reading of the rule "Free (Part)" is correct then 99% of T&C cars that are pre 77 that I have seen at the track over the last 20 years are not compliant as most are running Wilwood -

Why do we run Wilwood?

Simple that is what most of us can afford as dropping $3000 for a pair of new period correct AP Historic range of calipers is out of the question and we want to stop our cars safely lap after lap.

Sorry I missed the last weekend Ray - Saturday winter meetings = kids winter sport where this Dad is a coach of a 6 year old football (soccer) team so I can't make Saturday's. I have watch some in car footage of the last AES/Arrows grid and I must say - a close bunch at the end crossing the line so well done on the season and handicapping.

I think you would find that if your car had or could have been fitted with say, 4 pot callipers in period, then you could fit 4 pot Wilwoods and as long as you didn't have a number of other non-compliant parts on your car you would get a COD (possibly a B COD but a COD nevertheless).

[EType]

Just in case it helps - my 1965 E Type has a COD and 4 pot Wilwood calipers.

There weren't any issue with them.

Stewart

[ERC]

You can get CoD with I think, up to two or three non conforming items, so that means an A/B/C CoD.

[Kiwiboss]

My HMC 69 Mustang has Wilwood calipers and is A COD compliant and issued, i provided the H&C commission with information regarding the Wilwood caliper which was founded in around 1974. JFZ was found earlier(don't have exact date at hand) but even earlier was a company called "Edco Specialty Products" around 1968/9 which i believe got swallowed up by Wilwood. Also in the mix was Hurst-Airheart(early/mid 60's) along with AP out of England, all these calipers are suitable and considered "Free" for the era of vehicle which in my case is a 69 Mustang!! infact Edco built a 6 piston caliper for stock cars around 1969 and could have been used on a Mustang or Camaro(or any other) race car back then!!

When determining the rules for "Historic Muscle Cars" using the T&C rules as our guide line we needed to define the brake caliper ruling a bit more accurate for better understanding, we found that all these calipers as mentioned above had something in common, they were all a "2 piece bolt together design" and "lug mounting style" so with the help of the H&C commission it was excepted that as long as the caliper was of this design and from a "historic" manufacture such as Wilwood this would be OK, so depending what your said vehicle is i think you'll find the Wilwood caliper is acceptable as a historic replacement part.

By using the words "must be of a 2 piece bolt together design and Lug mount style" instantly eliminated ALL modern Mono block and Radial mount calipers which are commonly used on more modernized race cars these days, and although this shouldn't be needed to be pointed out, it helped most understand the correct caliper package to use.

I had been in-touch with Wilwood some years ago and they said there GNIII 6 piston grand national, Superlite and Dynalite calipers are there original traditional caliper since the companies inception, never redesigned over the years just refined. There other caliper packages are more recent technology and cant be considered Historic(post 12/77) so shouldn't be used. On top of all this i find there calipers represent excellent value for money and i've never had any major problems, been on my Mustang for 9 years now and are stopping a heavy car.

Hope this helps

Dale M

[nzeder]

Yes Dale that does help..

Cheers
Mike

[Oldfart]

This is not correct Ray - the new fee structure came through at $240 for CODs but a number of people complained and through the efforts of the H&C Commission it was subsequently amended to $97.

As of last night the Motorsport site still showed $240! Change shows today.

[ERC]

Thanks for the above.

[ERC]

Congratulations to our end of season award winners. The Awards dinner was last night with 94 attending. As usual, a fun night with the theme "Into The Red" so most attendees wore red, the background slide show from my own collection featured only red cars!

Convenor's Trophy (our top award) Chris Browne (Alfa) - for sportsmanship.
AES Series - Adam Jones (Ford Escort)
Arrow Wheels Series - Martin Day (Ford Escort)
Top Saloon - Paul Chisholm (VW Golf)
BMC Series - John Palmer (MGB)
Top Italian Car - John Nuthall (Alfa)

Although effectively a chocolate fish series, no points were disclosed before the awards dinner as all they are is a means to award donated trophies. In seventeen years, all major trophies above have been spread around and rarely has anyone ever won any of the above more than once. The one make trophies were awarded to:

Jaguar - Derek Moore
Alfa Romeo - Simon Mills
BMW - Peter Bromley
Datsun Z - Ricky Cooper
Ford - Colin Craig
MG - Todd Forsyth
Porsche - Tony Stansfield

[ERC]

Back in the country again... I haven't yet caught up with the team who deputised at the Ice Breaker but paid up registrations are over 50 already, for the new season.

Once again, our series runs in two groups but maybe after developments elsewhere, with the creation of several new classes, it is time to re-evaluate where we, as a group stand.

The advent of an historic race saloons grid is now a reality (and long overdue), that means that some of those cars we have allowed in that we all consider marginal, may now have a genuine place to race.

To reiterate our philosophy, which has now been in force for over 15 years, we have been pragmatic in allowing in marginal cars on the assumption that when there is sufficient interest for them to have a grid of their own, or, they revert to period, or, someone at least takes up the cudgels so to speak, we would then lose those cars and wish them good luck. If that didn't happen, then we would happily keep them.

Sometimes those offshoots survive and sometimes they don't. That is life - or at least motorsport.

Within the loosely described "Classic Arena", there are a number of orphaned cars, but as has been stated on more than one thread, driving standards are still the most important criteria of all. Pure historic cars driven like dodgems do not belong, but less pure cars driven with the correct attitude and spirit can be included in this class, within reason.

So there will be a fair bit of discussion over the next three months as to our future. The commercial aspect of any grid cannot be overlooked and we have to accept that small, loss making grids, have to be combined with other groups until they are viable.

Thankfully, there are enthusiasts around who can make a class successful, but over the years, it appears that the personalities involved are one of the keys to success and that includes those run by committees just as much as those run by a convenor. However, if the base philosophy is in any way fragile, or the rules inconsistent and not representative of the real wishes of the competitors, then the chances of success are somewhat limited.

So despite the occasional public lambasting, we are still viable but subtle changes are inevitable for survival and growth, as the availability of pre 1977 Euro saloons and sports cars shrinks, with many now as either as trailer queens or scrappers.

[ERC]

New season's fully paid up entries so far - still holding up well despite the various other class options available.

I wish this would stack in columns the way I'd intended and the way it looks when inputting...


8 Mark Parsons ARROW TRIUMPH TR7 V8
9 Martin Day ARROW FORD ESCORT
14 Adrian Hayman ARROW MG BGT V8
19 Kerry Chadderton ARROW PORSCHE 911SC
20 Geoff Sparkes AES TRIUMPH Dolomite Sprint
21 Bryce Platt AES PORSCHE 924 S
22 Peter Robinson ARROW BMW M3 ALPINA R
28 Michael Sexton ARROW FORD Escort Mk 1 RS2000
29 Mike Lucas AES DATSUN 260Z
30 Rod Hemmings AES TVR 3000M
31 Eddie York ARROW JAGUAR XJ40
33 Nick Wilcox AES MG F
34 Graeme Park AES PORSCHE 944S2
42 Des Redgwell AES VOLVO 242GT
44 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJS
47 Gary Baildon BMW
48 Ricky Cooper ARROW DATSUN 240Z
49 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
51 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD ESCORT
64 John Palmer AES MG BGT
65 Stewart Martel AES CITROEN BX16V
66 Todd Forsyth ARROW MG BV8
70 Ray Green AES MARCOS VOLVO 3L
82 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
87 David Brace ARROW BMW
88 Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
89 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 2
92 Brian Yates AES PORSCHE 924S
93 Ivan Selak ARROW FORD ESCORT
102 Robbie Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
103 Rob Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
104 John Ward ARROW FORD ESCORT
115 Chris Barendregt ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
117 John Sampson ARROW FORD CAPRI RS2600
120 John Munro ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
133 Bob Grove ARROW DATSUN 240Z
135 Don Roy AES MG BGT V8
139 Rob Berggren AES PORSCHE 944S2
142 Bruce Kirk AES VOLVO 142
150 Allan Brook AES MG BGT
173 David Herrick AES BMW 2002
181 Ron Findlay ARROW FORD PERANA
185 John Nuthall AES ALFA GTV 105
189 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 7
198 John Tomlin AES TRIUMPH 2500PI
213 Dave Mallin AES MG BGT
222 Bruce Jones AES FORD CAPRI
233 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
240 Earl Cruickshank ARROW DATSUN 240Z
246 Tony Olissoff ARROW ALFA SUD Ti
260 Ron Findlay ARROW DATSUN 260Z
279 Barry Hare ARROW ROVER VITESSE
280 Ken Williams AES MERCEDES 280CE
281 Paul Chisholm AES VW Golf GTI
295 Mal Chamberlain AES FORD ESCORT
317 Colin Craig AES FORD ESCORT MK II
331 John Hudson ARROW BMW 320
333 Rogan Hampson ARROW COBRA OHLSEN
339 Tony Sturm AES MG B SPORTS
400 David Frith AES Alfa Alfa 33 1.7
404 Andy Wallace AES BMW 2002Tii
431 Phil Josephs AES ROVER 220T
444 Derek Cecil
502 Steve Cowie ARROW ALFA GT
616 Dave Mallin ARROW MG BGT V8
711 Vishu Singh AES ALFA SPRINT
739 Grant Kern ARROW MG B V8 SPORTS
778 Rex Ferrall ARROW TRIUMPH TR8
783 Peter Gunter ARROW SKODA
833 Rob Hunkin AES ALFA 33
866 Francois Cronje AES RENAULT R8 GORDINI
888 Peter Hannaford AES FIAT 130 TC
891 Chris Hunkin AES ALFA 33
910 Simon Mills AES ALFA SUD
944 Paul Madeley ARROW PORSCHE 944T
51b Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
833b Edward Hunkin AES ALFA 33
8B Arthur Vowles ARROW ALFA DUETTO

[AMCO72]

My word, ERC, what a list, and what variety. You must be mighty pleased. However, of the two cars that changed the face of saloon car racing, in NZ anyway, the Anglia and the Mini, there is not a one! Amazing. Maybe all the Anglias went to pre 65, and all the Minis to Mini 7, but it puts paid to the fear that all Classic saloon car grids would be overrun by these two cars. RIP the Mini and Anglia.

[ERC]

Not quite AMCO. There are at least two Anglias who haven't yet paid up for the new season (one is busy doing Targa) and one other Mini, also not yet paid up, though I do know the driver has had health issues even though he paid up last year.

Totally agree though. I can't understand why there aren't more of them running with us. Ditto Hillman Imps.

I was a huge fan of the UK's pre 57 racing and have yet to see here, Mk 2 Ford Zephyrs, Morris Minors, P4 Rovers, Standard 10's, Standard Ensigns and Mk 1 Jaguars racing. There have been a couple of Austin A35s, the Whitram MG Magnette and John Ure's MK7 Jag, but little else of that vintage.

I know Oldfart is trying to get a pre 1960's saloon grid off the ground and I sincerely hope he does. If required, we'd adjust our speed bar to include them - and shove a few more of the faster AES cars into the Arrows group!

We have just rejected one car as being a race car and the driver has accepted that with good grace, but is still running in another car anyway. We remain theoretically, a road car series, but that really means some interior trim, front lights, Dot rated road tyres. To enforce a 100% road legal rule would be pointless, given that so many are trailered anyway.

[John McKechnie]

Ray- very stylish avatar you now have, did the OE bring it back?

[Oldfart]

Thanks for the support Ray.
We are including the Pre 61 saloons at Roycroft, and Historics are very keen to add them to other events. They WILL be run under VCC regulations and to the guidelines I have posted on here under their own thread. So far I know of only 5 cars, but it is early days.

[ERC]

Ray- very stylish avatar you now have, did the OE bring it back?

Actually John, it is a logo I designed for our tenth season (eight years ago) and it appeared on a range of gear, from bucket hats, to polo shirts, sleeveless jackets and even on gear bags as an embroidered logo.

This was in the days when I had a half share in Chicane and managed to get a good deal on end of range clothing. It also appeared on the menu at the end of season awards dinner. Embroidering your gear bag means it is easily spotted on the luggage carousel.

This morning, I realised that I didn't have an Avatar so thought I'd use the ERC logo! Glad you approve.

[Grant Ellwood]

My word, ERC, what a list, and what variety. You must be mighty pleased. However, of the two cars that changed the face of saloon car racing, in NZ anyway, the Anglia and the Mini, there is not a one! Amazing. Maybe all the Anglias went to pre 65, and all the Minis to Mini 7, but it puts paid to the fear that all Classic saloon car grids would be overrun by these two cars. RIP the Mini and Anglia.

Yes Gerard, where have all the Anglias gone, I have followed most of the UK historic events, just a few 105Es. Up here in the USA mid Atlantic states just one Broadspeed example racing yet there seems to be every other example of Brit cars running, more than I have seen in England really. Hope my Anglia inspires them somewhat when it races up here next season.

[ERC]

As at end of November 2013. I found the WYSIWYG option, but it limits the number of characters too much so back to this motley list.


6 Mal Clark ARROW ROVER P6 3500
8 Mark Parsons ARROW TRIUMPH TR7 V8
9 Martin Day ARROW FORD ESCORT
10 Neil Fraser ARROW LANCIA DELTA INTEGRALE
14 Adrian Hayman ARROW MG BGT V8
15 Phil Laird ARROW BMW 318IS
19 Kerry Chadderton ARROW PORSCHE 911SC
20 Geoff Sparkes AES TRIUMPH Dolomite Sprint
21 Bryce Platt AES PORSCHE 924 S
22 Peter Robinson ARROW BMW M3 ALPINA R
25 Rex Bentham AES MG B SPORTS
27 Paul Halford AES ALFA GUILIA GTA
28 Michael Sexton ARROW FORD Escort Mk 1 RS2000
29 Mike Lucas AES DATSUN 260Z
30 Rod Hemmings AES TVR 3000M
31 Eddie York ARROW JAGUAR XJ40
33 Nick Wilcox AES MG F
34 Graeme Park AES PORSCHE 944S2
42 Des Redgwell AES VOLVO 242GT
44 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJS
47 Gary Baildon AES BMW E30 318is
48 Ricky Cooper ARROW DATSUN 240Z
49 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
51 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD ESCORT
60 Chris Fraser ARROW MORGAN PLUS 8
64 John Palmer AES MG BGT
65 Stewart Martel AES CITROEN BX16V
66 Todd Forsyth ARROW MG BV8
70 Ray Green AES MARCOS VOLVO 3L
71 Adam Jones AES FORD ESCORT GT
72 Karl Sentch AES DATSUN 240Z
82 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
83 John Honore ARROW FERRARI 308GTB
87 David Brace ARROW BMW
88 Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
89 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 2
92 Brian Yates AES PORSCHE 924S
93 Ivan Selak ARROW FORD ESCORT
102 Robbie Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
103 Rob Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
104 John Ward ARROW FORD ESCORT
114 Russell Sykes AES MG BGT
115 Chris Barendregt ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
117 John Sampson ARROW FORD CAPRI RS2600
120 John Munro ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
133 Bob Grove ARROW CAPRI PERANA
135 Don Roy AES MG BGT V8
138 Ross Hannah AES MG MIDGET
139 Rob Berggren AES PORSCHE 944S2
142 Bruce Kirk AES VOLVO 142
150 Allan Brook AES MG BGT