NEW CLASS / SERIES; Historic Sports Sedans. formation meeting.20/04/13 ACC

[George Sheweiry]

Announcing a general meeting for interested parties for the formation of the rules and confirmation of race dates for a new class for historic Sports Sedans at the Auckland car club rooms 20th april at 10am.
The go ahead has been given by the Auckland Car Club for a new series for historic Sports Sedans to run at the 6 ACC race meetings this coming season, starting in September 2013 and ending around April 2014 being 1 day meetings and comprising 1 practice and 3x6 lap races with 3 rounds at Pukekohe and 3 at Hampton downs.
A Basic outline for the class is for the cars to run as they did per the rules and parts of their period, also to allow replicas that also would have to conform to the original specs. Because this would encompass such a varying amount of different rules and of course engine capacities it is suggested that all 3 races be handicap.
If this is something that would interest you then please put your thinking cap on and come along to this meeting as this will determine the rules that the cars and series will run to.
This is intended to be a fun type class where you can run your historic Sports Sedan with the same cars that would have run back in the day, thus placing some more value back into your car and letting the public see some of the old jiggers that were once the top line saloons of NZ motoracing. If enough cars join there is more than a probability that we as a class could run at the next HD festival of speed. Would also love to have input from the immense talent of the great pool of racers current and past on this great motoracing enthusiasts site. Cheers, George.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Announcing a general meeting for interested parties for the formation of the rules and confirmation of race dates for a new class for historic Sports Sedans at the Auckland car club rooms 20th april at 10am.
The go ahead has been given by the Auckland Car Club for a new series for historic Sports Sedans to run at the 6 ACC race meetings this coming season, starting in September 2013 and ending around April 2014 being 1 day meetings and comprising 1 practice and 3x6 lap races with 3 rounds at Pukekohe and 3 at Hampton downs.
A Basic outline for the class is for the cars to run as they did per the rules and parts of their period, also to allow replicas that also would have to conform to the original specs. Because this would encompass such a varying amount of different rules and of course engine capacities it is suggested that all 3 races be handicap.
If this is something that would interest you then please put your thinking cap on and come along to this meeting as this will determine the rules that the cars and series will run to.
This is intended to be a fun type class where you can run your historic Sports Sedan with the same cars that would have run back in the day, thus placing some more value back into your car and letting the public see some of the old jiggers that were once the top line saloons of NZ motoracing. If enough cars join there is more than a probability that we as a class could run at the next HD festival of speed. Would also love to have input from the immense talent of the great pool of racers current and past on this great motoracing enthusiasts site. Cheers, George.

Hi there ,here is this word again period ,most historic sports sedans today have parts that are not period fitted.I think it would be great to see the old cars out there again,what about the old all-comers from the past can they race also.

[ERC]

Long overdue. The one class that has been missing from classic grids and as long as people don't take it too seriously and get all anal about it, should be a winner.

[George Sheweiry]

Yes Custaxie50, sorry if I was unclear about that but that is the intention, but just from what year start to year end will be for the competitors who turn up at the inaugural meeting. I am guessing it could be from say 1962 to maybe 1980. We can also limit the races to say 6 laps which will help the cars whos brakes aren't so good. And I think in the early years the tyres weren't so good so just put everyone on slicks but you would probably have to allow the earlier cars to upgrade their oiling systems as the extra grip would no doubt bring with it some extra problems. Also in those earlier cars as we want to see everyone finish I would think an upgrade of cranks, rods, pistons and valves would help with reliability after all we want to see these cars out there caning around the track like they used to.
But again these are just starting suggestions for the people who come along to consider.
Thanks for your comments. George.

[jim short]

George Sports Sedans finished when the Trans Amms took over ,or perhaps to when Bay Park closed, as 1980 puts me out

[Jac Mac]

Hi George, my thoughts on this although I am never likely to compete or be involved.
Dont allow slicks or engine mods like dry sump unless they were fitted to the car in question when it was raced in the form its presented. If you really do intend to make them all handicap races the handicapping will need to reflect the wide disparity in lap times, you might need to reduce to five laps if you find that lap time difference getting out round the 20 second mark, it does not matter whether your racing for chocolate fish or for the whole fishing fleet, in order to keep the cars 'as raced in period' the handicapping must be the incentive to allow virtually anyone who drives their car at close to its maximum in that form to win, I wish you luck.

[George Sheweiry]

Thanks guys, just what we need to hear. I am already adding these suggestions to the list and hopefully by the day of the inaugural meeting I will be armed with most of the things that need to be considered. I will try and post a list of potential cars and competitors tonight that you may be able to help me with contact Ph numbers. Those of you who have seen this and are potential entrants please email or ph me to let me know if you are interested or not. 8276290 or 0274949658 or sheweiry@slingshot.co.nz. Many thanks, George.

[ERC]

As practice is usually a bit fraught, especially with cars that have not run for a while, I'd advise againsts making the first race a handicap.

1) You WILL get sandbaggers
2) Half the field may well end up starting from pit lane!

For the last 17 years, we have never counted the first (scratch race) for points and it then gives you a bit of time to sort out the handicaps and drivers to sort out their cars. We also use a system that retains previous lap times on each track and we then use a mix of previous best time and the current day. It helps reduce the effects of sandbaggers too.

When historically, the best lap time is set in the dry and you get a wet meeting, then we only use the wet times. On a one day meeting, you are flat out sorting out the handicaps in time to draw up the grid sheets and then get it circulated and to the grid marshalls. You will have to provide assistance to the starter(s).

I really hope that you can get a grid for the Festival and that you do run handicaps, as I have given up competing there, as the speed differential made it boring to compete against cars that were lapping slower cars after 5 or 6 laps.

The six lap format is good and if you get good reliability, you can lift it later to 7 or 8 laps if there is a demand.

[kiwi285]

Long overdue. The one class that has been missing from classic grids and as long as people don't take it too seriously and get all anal about it, should be a winner.

Hi George,

I agree with Ray's sentiments exactly. It should prove a winner and would be an incentive to get some of those great old cars trackside again. I hope you get a great response and a heap of enthusiastic racers on board.

Cheers Mike

[Steve Holmes]

I also agree with Ray, this is a fantastic idea, and your long involvement and passion for Sports Sedan racing make you the perfect person for getting this off the ground George.

You said in another thread you've managed to put together a list of 30 cars that could fit. Thats really impressive! Can you post the list at some stage, I'd love to see what cars are still around.

My only thought would be to have the cut-off date at around 1989 or so, as Evan Munt did when he assembled the Historic OSCA group for their 40th anniversary. The US Trans-Am and IMSA tube-frame cars just began appearing in NZ in the late 80s/early 90s, and they changed the outlook on NZ Sports Sedan racing from being creative locally built specials based on the body of a production car to being clones with a tube-frame over which a replica plastic body was mounted. Then Greg Lancaster made these vehicles compulsory and outlawed all the NZ specials around 1993/94. If possible you could maybe look at allowing in the 1980s Sports Sedans but have the cut-off so the tube-frame IMSA/Trans-Am cars aren't included. Just my 2cents worth.

There were a lot of really great Sports Sedans built in NZ in the 80s, this was really the decade where they thrived, and there must be quite a few of them still about.

Anyway George, keep up the good work, and keep us posted. There is a lot of interest in old Sports Sedans, and similar work is being undertaken in Australia to bring out old Sports Sedans also.

[ERC]

Totally agree with Steve. Pre IMSA. IMSA tube frame cars killed the really interesting cars off.

[crunch]

Hi George, my thoughts on this although I am never likely to compete or be involved.
Dont allow slicks or engine mods like dry sump unless they were fitted to the car in question when it was raced in the form its presented.

Couldnt agree more. Dont allow ANY modern modifications, otherwise the door will be kicked open and you will just end up with a bunch of fast modern spec old-looking cars. I loved the days of the Crowe Starlet, Huxford Capri, Algie Charger and that wild Alfa driven from the back seat. Make the cars stay with period spec as they then has an historical value. They were/are plenty fast enough anyway.
Agree with the cut-off of pre-IMSA space frame.
Good luck; will help in any way I can

[Kiwiboss]

There's already a class for these vehicles in place? They've been advertising in the Classic Car Mag for the last year(or so) as a NEW series “All Comers Saloons & Historic Super Sedans” under HRC, say’s to contact Chris Watson or Tony Jack and have sponsorship with Advance Adhesives? or is this something else? a different category of vehicle maybe?

Anyway George, you are so much the car enthusiast you have my total support and this is a great idea, myself and Steve have talked about a PURE “Historic Sports Sedan” class for some time but both he and i have our hands full with HMC(and work). You’ll have problems with what some think is “ Historically” and/or “Period” correct when it comes to wheels and other components used back when these vehicles roamed the tracks but stick to you guns, some on this forum can’t get there head around why we have HMC vehicles on period 15” wheels and tyres when this is what they used!! Anyway, good luck and as Crunch says above, we here to offer any advice and help whether needed or not!! but it may pay to contact Chris Watson and/or Tony Jack to see what they’re up too with this other group.

Would totally luv to see this at the Festival

Dale M

[Steve Holmes]

Without wanting to bombard you with stuff you probably don't want to have to worry about at this early stage George, one of the issues you may find with Historic Sports Sedans is that one car will have raced for several seasons, being updated as it went. This is fairly unique to Sports Sedan type vehicles, as they could be constantly chopped and changed around to keep pace, unlike other categories. So depending on how anal you want to be about the cars being period correct, you might want to consider owners pin-point a period in their cars history, and present it to that point in time. This is what the Historic Australian Group C and A touring car category does. They require the cars be presented, both mechanically and aesthetically to a specific year, and even a specific race if possible.

A good case in point is the Wayne Huxford V8 Capri. That car first appeared in 1979, fitted with a 5 litre Morand Chevy from David Oxtons Begg F5000, full floor pan, and relatively mild flares. It was continuously developed throughout the 1980s and kept being updated until about 1997, to keep pace with the new Trans-Am tube-frame cars that were predominant by that stage. By 1997, about the only thing left from the car that debuted in 1979 was the roof! Therefore, if you have a cut-off date as per your earlier post of 1980, then Huxfords Capri would fit, because it first raced in 1979. But on the other hand, only the roof remains from the car as it raced in 1979.

[Bruce302]

I'll see you there George.

Bruce.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Without wanting to bombard you with stuff you probably don't want to have to worry about at this early stage George, one of the issues you may find with Historic Sports Sedans is that one car will have raced for several seasons, being updated as it went. This is fairly unique to Sports Sedan type vehicles, as they could be constantly chopped and changed around to keep pace, unlike other categories. So depending on how anal you want to be about the cars being period correct, you might want to consider owners pin-point a period in their cars history, and present it to that point in time. This is what the Historic Australian Group C and A touring car category does. They require the cars be presented, both mechanically and aesthetically to a specific year, and even a specific race if possible.

A good case in point is the Wayne Huxford V8 Capri. That car first appeared in 1979, fitted with a 5 litre Morand Chevy from David Oxtons Begg F5000, full floor pan, and relatively mild flares. It was continuously developed throughout the 1980s and kept being updated until about 1997, to keep pace with the new Trans-Am tube-frame cars that were predominant by that stage. By 1997, about the only thing left from the car that debuted in 1979 was the roof! Therefore, if you have a cut-off date as per your earlier post of 1980, then Huxfords Capri would fit, because it first raced in 1979. But on the other hand, only the roof remains from the car as it raced in 1979.

See its started before you get things moving,Wayne Huxford car does not fit in and others like his.As you said before-Period cars etc only.

[George Sheweiry]

Thanks guys for your offers.
These are the cars I have come up with so far.
George Sheweiry ex Richards Boss Mustang
Graeme Addis contacted Valiant Charger
Barry Algie contacted Holden Manaro
John Learmonth contacted Algie Monza
Craig Stacey contacted Nazer Victor
Paul McCarthy contacted Zakspeed Escort replica
Bob Homewood contacted Escort
Bruce Manon declined Escort Turbo
Roger Townsend contacted Cologne Capri
John McCechnie contacted Bunce Monaro
Shane Windelburn contacted Pontiac
Warrick Grey Viva
Gordon Burr Algie Alfetta/Cologne Capri
Wayne Huxford Capri chev
Graham Barnes ex Bullivant Capri chev
ex Brennan Escort chev
Tony Boyden ex Coppins Camaro
Tim Buckley ex Gary Sprague XD
Roger Williams ex Thompson Mercedes chev
Dennis Running ex Wills RX8
Rod Grimrod Escort
ex Parkes Marina
ex Ian Night Escort chev
Black mk2 Zakspeed Escort
ex Tulloch Capri Chev
ex Osborne Capri Chev
ex Crowe/Freeth Starlet
ex Lancaster Victor
ex Mossman Viva chev
ex Mossman Consul
Green mk1 2dr Cortina 351
ex Jones Commodore
ex Harrington Torana chev
ex Leckie Capri chev
ex Leckie/Benbrook Lancer
ex Findlay Datsun sss
Fiat 850 V8
ex Lathrope Escort
ex Rutherford RX2

Then any of the earlier Allcomer/ BNSW cars would have qualified to run in sports sedans
Craig Stacey ex Fahey Anglia
Bruce Thompson ex Coppins Firebird
Tony Antunovich ex Marwood

[George Sheweiry]

Don't know what happened there, I had them all in columns and then the last car I couldn't write Camaro!! anyway I shall carry on from there.
John Tomich ex Segedin Mustang, Mike Johns ex Boyle coke Viva, Halliday Escort, Richards Escort Fahey FVA escort, Nazer Escort, Millen Jag, Custaxie 2,Dawson 67 Mustang, Riley 65 Mustang, Cook Datsun Sunny, Dawson Z28 Camaro. Then there are the Osca Cars, Ian Munts Capri chev, Clyde Collins Cortina Boss, Clyde Collins XW falcon,
OOps!! forgot PDL 1 and 2. and Meadows corvette. You get the picture. and 98% of those cars still exist So please the owners of those cars get in touch if you are interested. Cheers, George.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Don't know what happened there, I had them all in columns and then the last car I couldn't write Camaro!! anyway I shall carry on from there.
John Tomich ex Segedin Mustang, Mike Johns ex Boyle coke Viva, Halliday Escort, Richards Escort Fahey FVA escort, Nazer Escort, Millen Jag, Custaxie 2,Dawson 67 Mustang, Riley 65 Mustang, Cook Datsun Sunny, Dawson Z28 Camaro. Then there are the Osca Cars, Ian Munts Capri chev, Clyde Collins Cortina Boss, Clyde Collins XW falcon,
OOps!! forgot PDL 1 and 2. and Meadows corvette. You get the picture. and 98% of those cars still exist So please the owners of those cars get in touch if you are interested. Cheers, George.

dont know about the PDL 2 or custaxie 2, dont get me wrong its great to see them out there on the track but see its that word again ,period cars only as they raced all those years back

[ERC]

What a fantastic list!!!! A decent grid of these cars would be a real spectator attraction and could well attract more spectator interest than the F5000s! I say that not to run down F5000's, far from it, but from a casual watcher's point of view, the sheer variety of the machinery, in size and shape, has real appeal.

One or two of those cars are now worth a shed load of money so you'd really want due respect shown, which is why this would have to be a gentlemanly series - another choccy fish group.