Discuss the various formats for historic racing

[RogerH]

There is considerable discussion going on in Australian historic circles following a crash at the Philip Island 2012 Historics in the mixed FF and FJ grid. In Australia they have grid positions based on qualifying with no subsequent grid adjustments (unlike here where if someone laps quicker during a race they will usually be elevated on the grid for the next race).

The Australian system often results in faster cars, that for some reason qualified slow, having to come through the grid in each race - this was the result :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVEQD1G6TMY

Now see it closer up :

\http://www.motorsportretro.com/2012/...classic-crash/

[Dave Silcock]

I personally don't have a problem with replica's, as long as they are that, same as, same as, as opposed to a look a like, two different animals in my book, in sports cars and sports racing car's, it is possible to build a retrospective special, as long as parts are used are period, and quite frankly there is so much scope in doing this, I don't know why more people don't go down this route, maybe people are to lazy, don't have the talent any more, people go on about the NZ specials of way back, on a whole they were pieces of shit, to see some of those cars today, the original builders would not recognize them, the reason being, they were never really built to last, and today, with machining and tooling improvements and the materials that we can work with, are light years ahead of what they had back then, but it does sadden me. that people appear no longer to be interested in building a special, have we lost those basic skills, just think what if Ralph Watson was a young man in this age, what would he be doing, hopefully not playing computer games, which appears to be the bent of the younger generation.
Roger

I still can"t get my head around why you call these cars ,and i'm talking saloon cars, replicas. One of my favorite cars, probably because when I was young and impressionable I drove one in a 3 hour race, is the 67 notch back Mustang. If I purchased one of the many available on Trade me and built a 289ci motor with Webers and a top loader 4 speed with 7 or 8 inch wide 15 inch American Racing wheels, how is this car a replica? Likewise my Mk2, the body of which,was not even built by Jaguar, but by Pressed Steel, how can it be a replica of a Mk 2?

[Oldfart]

Roger, I am one who supports the concepts of specials to the hilt. Now please tell me,where, under Motorsport NZ classes you would make use of such a car.

[Russ Noble]

Rhys, my car is a special, built under MSNZ Schedule CR for Retrospective Specials. It has a MSNZ COD and I race it in Classics Sports/GT.

At club meetings I can also race it in club saloon races. It is multi facetted. I researched all this and cleared a lot of things with MSNZ before I built it. It has been built on a super tight budget and gives good bang for the bucks. As Dave said there is a lot of scope in Sched. CR.

If you want to run in Tier 1, I don't think there is anything to stop anyone building their own FF for instance, it's been done in the past. Depends whether you think that would be a special..... Most of the other current classes pretty much preclude that sort of thing I think. You've got to follow the money trail there....

Now if someone had a wrecked WRX or similar and wanted to build a spaceframe or mono special from that then I guess club racing, hillclimbs, bent sprints etc would be the limit. Which is what most of the old specials did. But some could also do Gold Star Races etc. Not much chance of a special running in our premier single seater series these days!

I guess you could build a Sports Racing Car and run in one of the NI Sports car classes....

[Steve Emson]

Interesting discussions on here. I raced in historic group N here in Brisbane in the late 90's and early 00's. I was actually the group manager and convinced CAMS to sanction the class as a CAMS Championship here in QLD. I also devised the "Queensland Cup" so that the other class cars had a chance to win that overall trophy.
Getting the cars out of the sheds to race was very difficult. I did a lot of fast talking to get this stuff off the ground. Previous to this the cars ran in the clubcar races. I talked the Lakeside and Queensland raceway folk to let us have our own races.
It grew quite big after a few years.
I think i know the real cars vrs the replica car thing quite well. The big thing here was the huge speed differential in the cars. My car, Ford Falcon GTHO phase 3 replica, was then the fastest car in QLD.
The problem was that it was lapping the small cars after 3 laps of Lakeside. This meant in a 8-12 lap race, a huge speed differential.For those of you who know Lakeside the Falcon was doing 143mph (231kph) through the left had kink on the front straight. I cannot tell you how many times the lapped cards did not know i was there and changed line. I was fully on the grass at those sorts of speeds at least 5 times that I remember with a chill up my back.
Reverse grid was a little better but those other guys did not realise that the Falcon around that track was drifting from one side of the track to the other in the curves/corners because of the speed it was carrying down the straights.You could not change line once you were in there. I suspect some of you will not get what I am trying to explain, but some of you certainly will. Yes, you can say drive to the conditions, slow down, we aren't racing for sheep stations, winning isn't important etc etc. You know what is important,........having fun and driving your car the best you can possibly drive it. To me that is what historics is all about.
So, what I am getting at in my own experience, is the speed differential of these cars at that time was extremely dangerous. With bigger grids the cars were split which was good.
We still had drivers who, at some stage came from what they thought was the 'big time' back to this class of racing. Some of them thought 'rubbin is racing' was something real, not a movie bullcrap line. It upset a lot of other drivers when the body damage started happening. I know I was certainly annoyed about that.
I bought my son Brett, the last XU1 to score championship points in the Aust Touring car Championship. It was a real group C car!! I had him racing against these "hotshots" with piece of sh#@ replicas who were not afraid to serve him up. So I know that side of the coin as well.
Historic racing over here became for keeps mostly. Guys just wanted to win. This talk about gentleman behaviour was bull. Most of the outright cars were no holes barred Millionaires toys. And many of these guys were not short of a quid. But that is motorsport my friends. It was always about this even in NZ in the 60's and 70's. Those will seemingly unlimited funds, and then the rest of us.
Historics is a great class, and i really enjoyed racing in it. I wish everyone all the best, and make sure you enjoy yourselves at whatever level you wish to compete at.

[Dave Silcock]

Steve mate you have just shot your self in the foot. You go on about how fast your replica Falcon was and how difficult it was to drive around the normal competitors, i put it to you ,you were the problem not them. If your, dare i say it replica, was that fast surely you could have stroked it a bit to give every one a break. Then you talk of the car you bought your son having to compete with" piece of shit replicas" Hello where are we at here?

[RogerH]

The issue is not whether you can build a retrospective special or a replica under Schedule CR but where you can end up racing it. A number of historic and classic events (such as the likes of the Chris Amon Festival and the forthcoming Denny Hulme Festival) will not accept most CR cars.
With the issue that Dave raises in post #102, I think there is a difference between an existing period car (say a Mini 850) that is built up to replicate a Mini Cooper S and a car like a Cobra replica which effectively starts from nothing to do with a period car. Some events will accept the "replica" Cooper S but not the likes newly built "Cobra" or "GT40".

[Russ Noble]

The issue is not whether you can build a retrospective special or a replica under Schedule CR but where you can end up racing it. A number of historic and classic events (such as the likes of the Chris Amon Festival and the forthcoming Denny Hulme Festival) will not accept most CR cars.

Who cares, there's plenty of other places they can be raced. In the SI anyway. It's their loss not mine. They may not view it that way of course....

In the NI life seems to be different on many levels. That's why I refuse to live there.

Generally I will run my car wherever I can, wherever they will accept my entry, Classics, Club Saloons, OSCA. I haven't been refused yet. I can get more racing than I can cope with. Some classes have asked me to run with them, even though I don't strictly qualify. The car is a crowd pleaser and I think gives good value to the organisers.

Horses for courses...

[Dave Silcock]

I'm with you on that one Russ, it's a pity most of the good circuits are up there, bugger!

[Russ Noble]

Dunno, I love both Ruapuna and Teretonga. Not so keen on Levels these days tho.....

[jim short]

Russ you are repeating what I comented on way back I ran my NZ built sport car 7 times always invited always welcome down there sadly 1st time at a taccoc meet half way through the day ,Please Jim can you go and explain to Stan as to what make of car it is??? Bob Moore as an example used to ask why do you go all the way down south each yr,>then his sons transfered to Dunedin and shouted him down to the SFOS . He couldnt wait to talk about just how differnt down there was, one yr 17 cars came all the way from the USA and not one wished to go to Auckiand For such a small country its rather sad,I dont know the ans..is it snobery jellous stupidity or egos????

[nzeder]

I think the schedule CR rules have a good scope to build a retrospective car and have thought about this a number of times over years. There is a lot of scope to build a period retrospective special and I am surprised not more have not gone down this path. I guess maybe like me that we have too much $$ in out existing projects. If I knew I could build a retrospective special and have a class to run in I would do it in heart beat. I have had this idea in the back of my mind for a long time of what I would build - just need to find/purchase period plans for a single seater chassis design that would suit the engine I have in mind.

[Steve Emson]

Steve mate you have just shot your self in the foot. You go on about how fast your replica Falcon was and how difficult it was to drive around the normal competitors, i put it to you ,you were the problem not them. If your, dare i say it replica, was that fast surely you could have stroked it a bit to give every one a break. Then you talk of the car you bought your son having to compete with" piece of shit replicas" Hello where are we at here?

Hi Dave,
I thought what I was saying is the speed differential was the problem. That group NC falcon should not have been in the same race as the other cars. I was just driving it as quickly as I could in the first few laps because it was costing an arm and a leg to run it, so you want to enjoy yourself. Of course i wasn't doing lap record pace once I was in traffic. But don't also forget that I was racing for a Qld State Title, so I at least had to drive the silly thing. It was a replica- no big deal
The other point you raised, about the XU1's, Some of the competitors I am talking about came back from group A or V8 supercars as they are now,and other forms of motorsport as well,and just wanted to win. Some of these cars were very ordinary in appearance and they were quite prepared to drive into you car. Panel damage was very common, with guys pushing each other around.
I can identify with the guy with a Lotus Cortina or whatever. Do you really want someone driving their Torana S into you lightweight Alloy door?
There is a problem in this type of racing isn't there. I don't know what they do now, because I parked that falcon in my shed and never drove it again. It was because I simply did not enjoy all the crap that goes on in this type of racing. As the group manager in this class at the time i spent a huge amount of time getting things done for historics and the competitors. That part I enjoyed and I should make it clear that we all got on.
Some people think that you should drive at some gentleman pace in this class and be happy with that. Other people want to drive the way these cars were suppose to be driven. The two camps will never agree.
The falcon is a very well known car and gave a lot of people pleasure watching it, not only when I had it but when the previous owner Lloyd Bax owned it. LLoyd made this car a bit of a legend whilst he had it. Lloyd also became one of my best friends and built another car to try and beat the falcon. Unfortunately LLoyd (another Kiwi) is no longer with us.
With the XU1 guys reported to be spending up to $30,000 on an engine, the whole class turned to rubbish. They were getting HUGE horsepower from these cars.
Anyway, I obviously have not expressed myself very well on here.
Dave, the real problem was also Lakeside itself. If you have driven around there (you possibility have)you would know there are blind parts of the track and only 1 fast line around it. Also there is really only one viable passing point.
Hello where are we here?
What is your point? The falcon was a replica.It was quicker around Lakeside than any other XY Falcon ever has been, including big Petes super Falcon. It should have been in a NC only race, but that was impossible.
The XU1 was a real car with history. Brett raced them as it was in the 70's and did very well. he had the respect of all the other drivers because he was having a big go and was a tough guy to beat. He was only a kid just out of high school. He did not have the HP they had, maybe 100hp less than them.
So I have both ends of the spectrum covered as a car owner. I didn't say anything about replicas vrs real. My point is if your are going to spend $3,000 approx to do about 20 odd laps at a meeting, you had better enjoy yourself!
If you are going to go out in a CAMS Championship round, drive the thing as best as you can. That is the only reward.
Replicas, real cars, who cares. What you said about Mustangs Dave, you are right.

[Russ Noble]

Russ you are repeating what I comented on way back I ran my NZ built sport car 7 times always invited always welcome down there sadly 1st time at a taccoc meet half way through the day ,Please Jim can you go and explain to Stan as to what make of car it is??? Bob Moore as an example used to ask why do you go all the way down south each yr,>then his sons transfered to Dunedin and shouted him down to the SFOS . He couldnt wait to talk about just how differnt down there was, one yr 17 cars came all the way from the USA and not one wished to go to Auckiand For such a small country its rather sad,I dont know the ans..is it snobery jellous stupidity or egos????

Why that is? Is a tough one Jim.

I think it's a lifestyle, population, economic thing. There are more people, money, cars, opportunities up there. But to most South Islanders it'd be the last place they'd want to live. Classics/historics is a sort of a time warp class and I think there are so many cars up north the organisers can be more choosey with whom they invite and these of course tend to be the genuine time warp cars. I have been told if you know the right people you might have a better chance of getting an otherwise 'less desirable' car accepted.

I think too, the cars are different between the islands. A lot of the classics down here (not talking about the genuine historics) are 'improved' and that seems to be the norm and noone argues or turns up their nose at them.

I may have this wrong but I think down here guys like to race their Porsches, Escorts, Camaros et al because they love that era of car. But they treat them more as a sort of a time warp club car and are always looking to make improvements. That's the nature of motor racing and it's what they would have done had they been racing them when they were newer.

I don't think a lot of them really want to be forced into a rigid specification, they want to apply improvements which they can maybe engineer themselves or adapt from something else. It's something NZers have always done and South Islanders at least are still doing. Have a look at the lap times of some cars, the same car/driver combos now and say 5 years ago. With some its night and day, and its not the difference in the driving. I have no problem with this it's motor racing , it's the quest for constant improvement. The cars are more of a spectacle for the public and the drivers are happy. Everyone's happy.

Except maybe some of those from the other Island. Why that is? I don't know.

[Steve Emson]

You know I probably did not fully appreciate the heat in your replica posts. Replicas are welcomed with open arms in Qld.They are the main stay of the healthy fields.
You guys in NZ obviously have very strong views about this. Sorry I should have stayed out.

[Bruce302]

You know I probably did not fully appreciate the heat in your replica posts. Replicas are welcomed with open arms in Qld.They are the main stay of the healthy fields.
You guys in NZ obviously have very strong views about this. Sorry I should have stayed out.

Don't apologize Steve, You have added some extra points to the discussion. In case my thoughts earlier were misunderstood, I am not against replica or recent build classic racers. I have a friend who runs a 468 inch Pontiac against Porsches, Mustangs and Mopars in Europe, most it seems are similar recent build classics. I have friends who run genuine period correct racers with period history but they do not accept recent build cars. It is a purist thing and they get their kicks out of being sticklers for detail. Their choice, and I respect each camp. Both race hard, but cleanly.

I have restored my car to 1973 spec. it would have 1973 style hp, it would never win any race against a recent build car so i'd better have fun out there. And I will. It doesn't mean i'm driving like my granny, just this one car I am wanting to preserve.
Alternately I could, for less money and trouble, build a replica that looks identical, but with a new drive train, and could be driven as hard as required. The original would stay in the garage.
Look at the Bowden collection, Great cars, preserved and thankfully they will be for a long time. It is a pity they dn't get taken out as often as they could be, but seeing some of the racing in Aust, I can't blame them.

Dave, if you have a 10K paint job, I'll line up next to you on the grid any day. But is it really a Jag ?

Bruce.

[Racer Rog]

I think you must get the drift now, Schedule CR, The Classic Motor Racing Club will accept these vehicles, they are in fact one of the foundation stones of the club, but unfortunately, I think that there has only been one built in the last couple of years, and that was by Louise Clearwater, there is a problem with saloon cars, and this is being addressed by the Historic Commission, and as most of you realize, it will take careful work to build the frame work for this, for the concept is "as it was, so it shall be" examples of what not to do, is the pinto block Cosworth in Escorts, it is a can of worms, aqnd I liked a quote from an Australian, when talking about Holden XU1's "{ Its one of the 3500 known survivors of the 1500 built" ( don't take my numbers as gospel as I just can't remember the correct figures, but you can see where its going) so to get the policy correct and in place before every one starts whinnying on it will take a bit of time and talking with people to get it right, as I think it would be fair to say that some of the early CoD's, would not stand up again today.
Dave, a saloon car replica, in my book any way, is one which was not done in the period where it was current, eg a car that was built in the 70's with race history, as opposed to a car that is the same, but was built yesterday, there is no difference in the material in the cars, but one is the real McCoy, and not Bruce.
Roger

Roger, I am one who supports the concepts of specials to the hilt. Now please tell me,where, under Motorsport NZ classes you would make use of such a car.

[Oldfart]

I think that several have "hit the nail...."
In the mainland (and that's where my heart is) things are different, and especially differ from much of what happens on the northernmost circuits, not to understate the attitude of many administrators.
If only people up here would pick a period for their car, and then be honest and true to that there would be less angst.
Special building in the past tended to be low budget as "proper" cars were expensive and only(or mainly) the car dealers with their trade ins had access to cars for racing. I am of course talking late 50s, 60's in the main.
Specials were cobbled up from all sorts of stuff from the local wreckers or your crashed road car. You only have to look at the recipe for the BCM on the Tahunanui thread to see where I am coming from.
To me specials also implies Sports or single seaters. Now at least in the single seaters the 2 opportunities would be Formula Ford or Formula Vee/First. In one case unless you want to have the corners knocked off your car on a regular basis you could take part, just shoot down to the nearest wreckers to get a transaxle and a useful crossflow, a bundle of tube, make some uprights and you are halfway there. Insert Tui ad here.
The other is more achievable, perhaps.
The sports car series has got out of hand. $200000 cars can be purchased from Queenstown area. So much out of hand that even the organisers are promoting a "low key" series of events, in the attempt to get some of the cars that around 3 years ago were competitive out again and the fields are not promising.
I have taken part in Targa a fair few times and even the classic class there is, IMHO, a sham. Our car used all period parts, our competition had Jericho boxes, LS2 engines, Zetec Escorts, etc etc and were still dated by their owners as 196?/197? cars. In the spirit of the event the organisers take the owners' word. Are they classics, in my belief absolutely NO. The vintage movement dates by the newest of the major components, ie engine or chassis/body. Many also believe it should include transmission.
So where would this leave an imaginary A35 with Datsun motor, 5 speed gearbox and 8" wide Minilites? It would be a fun car, but...
Locost sports cars have been built by large numbers, the Constructors Car Club and Sports Car Club of NZ flourish, but few of their members use their specials as race cars, track days etc yes, and perhaps this where the future is. It would certainly appear so in the UK. Few spectators, heaps of track time and go when you want.

[Dave Silcock]

Don't apologize Steve, You have added some extra points to the discussion. In case my thoughts earlier were misunderstood, I am not against replica or recent build classic racers. I have a friend who runs a 468 inch Pontiac against Porsches, Mustangs and Mopars in Europe, most it seems are similar recent build classics. I have friends who run genuine period correct racers with period history but they do not accept recent build cars. It is a purist thing and they get their kicks out of being sticklers for detail. Their choice, and I respect each camp. Both race hard, but cleanly.

I have restored my car to 1973 spec. it would have 1973 style hp, it would never win any race against a recent build car so i'd better have fun out there. And I will. It doesn't mean i'm driving like my granny, just this one car I am wanting to preserve.
Alternately I could, for less money and trouble, build a replica that looks identical, but with a new drive train, and could be driven as hard as required. The original would stay in the garage.
Look at the Bowden collection, Great cars, preserved and thankfully they will be for a long time. It is a pity they dn't get taken out as often as they could be, but seeing some of the racing in Aust, I can't blame them.

Dave, if you have a 10K paint job, I'll line up next to you on the grid any day. But is it really a Jag ?

Bruce.

i can't really think what else it is Bruce, apart from the obvious intake and exhaust systems, the only parts not Jaguar are the power steering. As I have raced one of these cars in my youth,I know for sure an old man in his 70th year would not be capable of more than a few laps at reacing speed.
Dave.

[Dave Silcock]

Hi Dave,
I thought what I was saying is the speed differential was the problem. That group NC falcon should not have been in the same race as the other cars. I was just driving it as quickly as I could in the first few laps because it was costing an arm and a leg to run it, so you want to enjoy yourself. Of course i wasn't doing lap record pace once I was in traffic. But don't also forget that I was racing for a Qld State Title, so I at least had to drive the silly thing. It was a replica- no big deal
The other point you raised, about the XU1's, Some of the competitors I am talking about came back from group A or V8 supercars as they are now,and other forms of motorsport as well,and just wanted to win. Some of these cars were very ordinary in appearance and they were quite prepared to drive into you car. Panel damage was very common, with guys pushing each other around.
I can identify with the guy with a Lotus Cortina or whatever. Do you really want someone driving their Torana S into you lightweight Alloy door?
There is a problem in this type of racing isn't there. I don't know what they do now, because I parked that falcon in my shed and never drove it again. It was because I simply did not enjoy all the crap that goes on in this type of racing. As the group manager in this class at the time i spent a huge amount of time getting things done for historics and the competitors. That part I enjoyed and I should make it clear that we all got on.
Some people think that you should drive at some gentleman pace in this class and be happy with that. Other people want to drive the way these cars were suppose to be driven. The two camps will never agree.
The falcon is a very well known car and gave a lot of people pleasure watching it, not only when I had it but when the previous owner Lloyd Bax owned it. LLoyd made this car a bit of a legend whilst he had it. Lloyd also became one of my best friends and built another car to try and beat the falcon. Unfortunately LLoyd (another Kiwi) is no longer with us.
With the XU1 guys reported to be spending up to $30,000 on an engine, the whole class turned to rubbish. They were getting HUGE horsepower from these cars.
Anyway, I obviously have not expressed myself very well on here.
Dave, the real problem was also Lakeside itself. If you have driven around there (you possibility have)you would know there are blind parts of the track and only 1 fast line around it. Also there is really only one viable passing point.
Hello where are we here?
What is your point? The falcon was a replica.It was quicker around Lakeside than any other XY Falcon ever has been, including big Petes super Falcon. It should have been in a NC only race, but that was impossible.
The XU1 was a real car with history. Brett raced them as it was in the 70's and did very well. he had the respect of all the other drivers because he was having a big go and was a tough guy to beat. He was only a kid just out of high school. He did not have the HP they had, maybe 100hp less than them.
So I have both ends of the spectrum covered as a car owner. I didn't say anything about replicas vrs real. My point is if your are going to spend $3,000 approx to do about 20 odd laps at a meeting, you had better enjoy yourself!
If you are going to go out in a CAMS Championship round, drive the thing as best as you can. That is the only reward.
Replicas, real cars, who cares. What you said about Mustangs Dave, you are right.

Steve, sorry I misunderstood you position on replicas and I agree one does like to drive what ever car you are in as well as one can.Last time I looked, and it seems I don"t have the latset book,any form of series or championship is prohibited by MSNZ, which is how it should be in my opinion.
Dave.