Discuss the various formats for historic racing

[nzeder]

Since I returned to NZ I have attended a number of classic meetings as a spectator and I have only done a few classic trials so I really can't comment with an substance on "racing" but I do see races within races. Competitors have a good dice with other marques but at the same performance levels. The buzz I see on competitors faces, the yarns about this lap or that passing move with others etc. So I say there is a lot of drivers out there having "FUN".

Having watched all this for the past 6+ years....I want into this fun too. I know when I finish my zed and hit the track I will not win a race, but I do expect to see a competitor as my target, the guy/girl I see as the benchmark. Or maybe someone else you notice is faster on a sector so that then becomes the target match or better that.

A race is a race and like all forms of competitive sport there will be a winner. Handicap racing does allow for an event/series organizer to change this a bit so the field has a different dynamic to compete in.

So Trevor I agree with #1 too.

[Racer Rog]

Trevor, I think that if you want to win in your racing, then I suggest that Historic and classic racing are not for you, you will find a place in club sport racing or join in with the big boys, I think you should be seeing a common thread here, its not about winning for winnings sake, its about the the cars, cars in period, that's not to say that they are driven like granny drive her Morri thousand on Sunday, but driven in the spirit to which they were intended in THEIR DAY, and I think that's where a few get it wrong, I have seen many fine cars that look like an old car, untill you look at the engine, gearbox, and just about every thing else, why? some have said its to expensive to fit a real BDA into a Escort, and then you are looking at a 50 to 60k engine and gearbox installation and about 2.7 litres of motor and 320hp, and they say its a replica, not in my book, and as far as the Historic commission of MotorSort NZ is concerned, its just a club car, and hence the saying, "as it was, so it shall be", I know this may seem harsh to some, but if you want to go out and win in that type of car, there are other venues in motor sport to do this, and I am always surprised when some competitors get upset about this policy, as if you read T & C, and schedule K, you can come up with some quick vehicles, and as a very wise man once said in his after dinner speech, " the racing started when the rules were posted" ( 10 points if you can name him) with the onset of of Shell Sport cars, BNZ cars and the like, the Historic Commission will work with these groups, as has been done with the F5000's and HMC, to ensure that there are ways possible to follow the rules set down in the past, the worry is that it is hard to peg back engine development, eg BDA's will put out a bit more than they did in their day and are more reliable, and there are other factors as well, one of the biggest changes would be tyres, so getting that right is important, Roger H has high lighted some factors
and Steve has hit it well, so Trev, if you can suck it in, forget about winning and have fun, you may find the stress level drops a bit, as there are no farms as prizes in our racing but there is spirited competition!
Roger

[Bruce302]

This is a great thread indeed, I will add a few thoughts if I may.

There seems to be as many different ideas on what racing, and especially "Historic" racing is all about. No doubt there are as many definitions as there is cars and drivers. Unfortunately NZ does not have the depth or number of truly Historic race cars for the number of people who want to be involved. This has lead to a vast number of 'Historic' race cars that are nothing more than new cars built using older body shells.
They may have anything from virtually new NASCAR engines and running gear, or Aust V8 underpinnings. My personal definition of an historic car, is one that has history, competing in the period it was first made. Ironically my own car, the ex Coppins Firebird is not eligible to compete in the Historic Muscle car class. That despite it having some very significant history, and being virtually identical to it's period configuration. But that doesn't worry me at all. I have seen too much crazy behaviour on the track. For those that are not aware, in the US, specifically the Monterey Historics, period history is required, and even then there is no guarantee of acceptance to compete. For those that do compete, and there is any on track contact, there is an immediate stand down, you're on the trailer and out of there, and a 13 month no return. You don't even get to go back the following year. They are running cars that have in some instances the past, sold for many millions of dollars, and they take the whole business very seriously.

At an event further East, there were grid starting positions, and pre determined finishing positions. Have all the fun you want, but come home in the correct order or you will be on the trailer. I believe there is a lot of fun to be had just be exercising the real historic cars.
Something like this:
I like to do illegal things with it, like take it for a blast in the countryside round Cambridge and just listening to the howl of the gears. Don't need to be going very fast, just accelerating out of corners on traffic free roads. Music to the ears.

We have all had fun on deserted roads, I suggest that those that need the thrill of competition, build a new race car and race in a points and reward series.
There seems to be enough different 'Historic' classes and series for the differing needs or desires of the various car owners. It's just a matter of finding the one that suits your particular wishes.

Bruce.

[jim short]

The Country Gents at Wigram had the best set up ,an entertaining driver talk with some new unseen flags on display then the drivers chosen to win was announced example Ray Archibald always wins so he will win the over 3lt. Bill Smith{ex} our lawer will win the sports car face and so on Alister Ansill?was real good, but anyone damaging a car was out ,The last time I was there 1995? a xjs jag Hit a 911 in the first ten mins. He was out the gate before 20 mins were up!!

[jim short]

Roger how about having your crankshaft and rods checked to make sure its the correct steel I doubt if 1 car can not be faulted the most important part is the tyres are they as per original????

[RogerH]

Jim, the international regs we run to state with respect to crankshaft and rods :

The crankshaft is free, but it must retain the original stroke

Connecting rods are free provided they are made of ferrous metal.

with tyres , the regs state :

cars must use either Dunlop Vintage range tyre R 5 pattern or older or ”L” section tyres only which have 204 compound and tread pattern CR65 or earlier

All these area provide for some potential variance from period. In our class of racing, about half the cars now days run billet cranks but there was billet crank use in some cars in period so the change here may be limited to better quality metal. With the rods, there is no real fancy metal use although the more modern designs are potentially a bit lighter than period. However, I recently saw some period rods from a works 1960 engine that were beautifully made and were only a few grams heavier than the modern equivalent.

With the tyres there is definitely an improvement over period even though the Dunlop CR65 L section tyres are the hard 204 compound. I suppose everyone uses the CR65 as the spec tyre as getting real period tyres is close to an impossibility.

[jim short]

Roger so what you are saying that if I bring out the original Lotus that my dad parked up after only 3 months use back in the 50s I would be at a huge disadvantage yes or no???

[Dave Silcock]

I understand that retaining a race car in a "frozen" configuration that existed some 50 years without the ability to do any further material development must be an anathema to a development race engineer who's skills are modification for improved performance. However, most historic race regulations around the world are based on maintaing historic cars in a format that is consistent with period regulations.
While just a few mm in a rim width may not sound that important, the next step could be just a little bit of engine over-bore - then how about we re-fabricate those top arms so we can get a bit more castor - then how about moving the engine back a few mm to improve the car's balance. Where would it end? We would probably end up with something that looks a bit like the historic car it is meant to represent but is in fact a different animal.
There are plenty of places for the application of skilled engineering to obtain increased performance but I think the regulations of most of the traditional historic race classes don't provide the opportunity for these non-period modifications.

What I find most annoying about comments like this is they are based on the assumption that every car is running under Schedule K. Nowhere in T&C is there anything to say I can,t double the horsepower of my motor. And if you go back to the original Group 5 regs that I built the original car under I can do even more. As regards Ford engines it seems to have escaped every ones attention that an SCA Cosworth revved to 11000rpm approx and that BDG's put out 290bhp in the day. In fact there is almost no motor racing in NZ above club level, where you can modify a motor, the playing must always be kept level for the drivers poor little darlings. Motor sport in this country was built by people who fiddled about with engines and the cars they went in now obviously they are no longer needed.

[RogerH]

Roger so what you are saying that if I bring out the original Lotus that my dad parked up after only 3 months use back in the 50s I would be at a huge disadvantage yes or no???

On assumption that you didn't want to die using 50 year old tyres and replaced them with "new" period CR65 tyres, then you shouldn't be at a disadvantage. You may not have a car that would win but you would be mixing it in the pack.
While there are some cars that are producing more bhp and revs than period, the majority of the FJ cars running here put out very similar power today as they did in period. For example my Taraschi (1089cc Fiat) was last dynoed at 87bhp at 6700rpm and the period (1960) specs for the same car/engine recorded 86bhp at 6500rpm. My Lola (997cc 105E) was dynoed last year at 85.4bhp at 7632rpm while the period Cosworth MkIII 997cc 105E FJ engine is recorded at 85bhp at 7500rpm.

[RogerH]

What I find most annoying about comments like this is they are based on the assumption that every car is running under Schedule K. Nowhere in T&C is there anything to say I can,t double the horsepower of my motor. And if you go back to the original Group 5 regs that I built the original car under I can do even more. As regards Ford engines it seems to have escaped every ones attention that an SCA Cosworth revved to 11000rpm approx and that BDG's put out 290bhp in the day. In fact there is almost no motor racing in NZ above club level, where you can modify a motor, the playing must always be kept level for the drivers poor little darlings. Motor sport in this country was built by people who fiddled about with engines and the cars they went in now obviously they are no longer needed.

Dave, I think with this discussion there is a difference between the historic single seater/sports car regulations under Schedule K (which are essentially "as it was, so it shall be") and the T&C regulations under Schedule K which are more relaxed (essentially, if your car represents say, 1972, then if you can prove that your modification could be 1972 period then they are OK - I think they are referred to on the T&C regulations as "Period Variations". I'm talking about the former more restrictive category and I think you are talking about the more relaxed T&C regulations.

[Dave Silcock]

Dave, what did you have in mind for me, as you say, 'a carriage with more decorum'. Surely not a Jaguar!!!! I actually like driving the Mini, but not on the race track. As is usual, I like to do illegal things with it, like take it for a blast in the countryside round Cambridge and just listening to the howl of the gears. Don't need to be going very fast, just accelerating out of corners on traffic free roads. Music to the ears. I think the 'law' would take a dim view of my activities if they spotted me......'no lights Sir'......'No officer, it's daylight and I can see, even without my glasses!!!! I seem to be doing these anti-social things less and less these days. Actually the car is probably in better condition than some of the rubbish I see out there.....mostly of the turbo-charged Subaru variety, with the driver sittting on the floor. I'm sure I would get fined slightly more than the 13/6 I got stung for on the Leeston run!!!
So it seems from all your comments that it is me that is out of step here, and that the rest of you are having a hilarious time racing with your mates. Well bully for you. But I hope you are not trying to WIN, because that's what it sounds like to me, and that is NOT the spirit of Classic racing.
Attended the HD round of the Super-tourers yesterday, and the Guy at the back was definately NOT having FUN......and I got that straight from the horses mouth!!!!!!!

You have the answer to your problem in your own reply Gerald, do what ever is required to register your car and then you can drive it down to see Jim and listen to your gearbox to your hearts content, I would advise some rubber engine mounts however. That's why I built the Blue car as first and foremost as a road car. I made a big mistake putting in a roll cage as I can race it without one and could have taken my grand children for ride in the back seat. But I can go for a blast any time I like and man is it FUN!!!!!

[jim short]

No sorry Roger if I cant win I am out anyone want a Lotus going cheep

[Dave Silcock]

This is a great thread indeed, I will add a few thoughts if I may.

There seems to be as many different ideas on what racing, and especially "Historic" racing is all about. No doubt there are as many definitions as there is cars and drivers. Unfortunately NZ does not have the depth or number of truly Historic race cars for the number of people who want to be involved. This has lead to a vast number of 'Historic' race cars that are nothing more than new cars built using older body shells.
They may have anything from virtually new NASCAR engines and running gear, or Aust V8 underpinnings. My personal definition of an historic car, is one that has history, competing in the period it was first made. Ironically my own car, the ex Coppins Firebird is not eligible to compete in the Historic Muscle car class. That despite it having some very significant history, and being virtually identical to it's period configuration. But that doesn't worry me at all. I have seen too much crazy behaviour on the track. For those that are not aware, in the US, specifically the Monterey Historics, period history is required, and even then there is no guarantee of acceptance to compete. For those that do compete, and there is any on track contact, there is an immediate stand down, you're on the trailer and out of there, and a 13 month no return. You don't even get to go back the following year. They are running cars that have in some instances the past, sold for many millions of dollars, and they take the whole business very seriously.

At an event further East, there were grid starting positions, and pre determined finishing positions. Have all the fun you want, but come home in the correct order or you will be on the trailer. I believe there is a lot of fun to be had just be exercising the real historic cars.
Something like this:
I like to do illegal things with it, like take it for a blast in the countryside round Cambridge and just listening to the howl of the gears. Don't need to be going very fast, just accelerating out of corners on traffic free roads. Music to the ears.

We have all had fun on deserted roads, I suggest that those that need the thrill of competition, build a new race car and race in a points and reward series.
There seems to be enough different 'Historic' classes and series for the differing needs or desires of the various car owners. It's just a matter of finding the one that suits your particular wishes.

Bruce.

Bruce just exactly what point are you trying to make here? are you advocating us adopting the system you seem to admire from the US? That we actually fix the start and finishing positions. Who would want to participate our watch such a farce, unless it is just a lot millionaires showing how much money they have got.

[jim short]

In reply no 26Amco I am stunned NZs current v8 Champion calling the latest fastest racing we have ever seen ,,{good one Stu.}Super Tourers I mean hes raced Minis to Kenworths and proved himself beyond question {yes I know he takes after his Mum} but to call the latest toy a Hot Heavy piece of Sh..t,,, just loved the TV coverage man what a crowd??strange no one on the terrace that had plenty at the Roycroft meet.Both grandstands nealy half full !!!!but the tv shot I really enjoyed ,,I mean coming of a farm as a boy, and as the camera panned around there looked to be at least 30 black beef cattle on the hill at the back of the track just wonderfull bring on the Endurances races cant wait as most looked to be in calve

[Racer Rog]

Dave, Roger is correct, you can build your car to the old Group 5 spec's, as long as it meets schedule A requirements ( baring your Roll cage problems, and I believe that Crunch will be talking to you helping out with that issue) there is no reason that it won't be acceptable, you also should join the Classic Motor Racing club as well, we need a few more active members, if you are ever in need of a question answered, get hold of Crunch, and if he does not know, he has the resources to get an answer.
And Bruce, I would hate to see the NZ historic and Classic scene get to some of the lenghts that they do in the States, but what you have described is not that common thank god, and they do have have some good Historic racing, in the various groups SCCA, VERA , and a few others, and not all are run by Steve Earl!!
Roger

[AMCO72]

Jim, what the hell has endurance races got to do with cows being in calf. Are you hoping to see a cow or two giving birth while the race is in progress?? Was the racing so boring in the weekend that you were looking at pregnant cows rather than the cars?
I did not tape the meeting but was there in person, so didn't notice too many cows. The ST racing, was very definately RACING.....hard, fast, give no quarter type stuff, with most of NZ's top drivers in the hot seat. And that is definately what it was....a hot seat. After race one, my man was fitting an airconditioning system in the cockpit to keep temparatures below 120 degrees. These new machines are NOTHING like the old BNT V8's, which were quite friendly old girls in comparison. Actually I still enjoyed the NZ V8 race. There was some good racing, and PASSING........[wash your mouth out]. For some reason the ST's are very hot in the cabin, maybe the engine is further back, and the steering is unbelievably heavy, maybe because the tyres are about 2ft wide!!! And he was not having fun.......even the old 'McGintys truck was easier to drive!!!!
My mans comment was that they are a very 'physical' machine to drive, and for an endurance race even more so. He will have to spend some at the 'Jum/Jim/Gym pumping some iron, or he is going to colapse in a heap.

Goodness me, my innocent comment, at the start of this thread about having FUN, has really stirred up a hornets nest. But thats good, because although everyone has an opinion on these things, that opinion has never before been aired in such an open and frank way with other like-minded enthusiasts.

[Dave Silcock]

Dave, I think with this discussion there is a difference between the historic single seater/sports car regulations under Schedule K (which are essentially "as it was, so it shall be") and the T&C regulations under Schedule K which are more relaxed (essentially, if your car represents say, 1972, then if you can prove that your modification could be 1972 period then they are OK - I think they are referred to on the T&C regulations as "Period Variations". I'm talking about the former more restrictive category and I think you are talking about the more relaxed T&C regulations.

Roger, that's exactly the point I was making, and having just put the rule book down there is no mention of period variations, neither does it come [T&C that is] under Schedule K. It is a stand alone set of regulations. If you were to rely on Schedule K saloon cars I doubt that anyone could make up a grid of vehicles of any age. What I am against is using any technology or materials that were not available at the time.Eg carbon fiber or electronic injection. Some on here object to 6 pot calipers well the first Dunlop disc brakes had 6 pistons and 6 little brake pads on each one, so on needs to be careful when assuming something is new technology.

[RogerH]

Roger, that's exactly the point I was making, and having just put the rule book down there is no mention of period variations, neither does it come [T&C that is] under Schedule K. .

Have a look at the Manual (no.35) at page 486 and you will find :

“Period Variations” means variations carried out on that vehicle model, that were variations available in the era during which a vehicle model and/or its components were first used actively in motorsport competition, and

[AMCO72]

Dave, that is exactly as I had read it.......technology and materials AVAILABLE AT THE TIME..... Hence the Arden head we have on the Mini at the moment. Not only was this available at the time, but ours is THE actual head that was on the car in 1972, AND the twin Dellortos. The head was completely stuffed when Angus got it, and after vast expense is now up and running again. You might ask why go to all that expense and trouble when on a Mini you can get almost as much HP with an 5 port iron head, and probably more reliability. Well the answer is........I dont know. You will have to ask the man himself, but has to do with putting that car back to how it was originally. We have a little way to go, but as a genuine historic race car it is just about as close as you can go. Tony Mann's Sidchrome Imp is probably the best, most accurate rebuild I race with, and I guess there are others, but MOST of these old girls have had multiple body swaps, and dont even start me on engines and transmissions.
The thing is, if you are only going to have GENUINE cars out there, I can tell you the grids are going to be pretty thin.

[Dave Silcock]

You may be right I only have Manual 34 which I thought was the current one. I still have my doubts that I am going to fit into the prevailing sentiments expressed on here, just as well its such a good road car.