Discuss the various formats for historic racing

[markec]

There will always be those with differing views on how the grids and format of historic should be achieved,those with the faster cars seem to resent being put at the back of the grid or placed half a lap or so down. These days it is important to get bums on the seats at motorsport events,as the cost continue to climb it is becoming much more difficult for the young enthusiast to participate at anything other than club events, and that is getting too costly as well. So to create a spectacle for those who prefer to watch rather than participate, the racing needs to be entertaining.
This thread has been started to promote constructive comment.

[jim short]

A good point, but I normally read all new forums so I had no problem with the way it is Old fart a bit like the Govment stop the thing thats working {sell everything}

[rf84]

I think firstly we need to distinguish between genuine factory built race cars and replicas/recreations/reconstructions. On two occasions I have seen crashes where factory built race cars have been badly damaged by replicas. If you are driving a car with lots of history and is worth lots of money and someone comes along side you in a replica with no history and which can be fairly easily replaced with some '"furniture tube" and some Jap steel wheels, who is going to give way almost every time?

[Oldfart]

A good point, but I normally read all new forums so I had no problem with the way it is Old fart a bit like the Govment stop the thing thats working {sell everything}

Sorry Jim, like a number of your posts I am struggling to understand what you are saying.

[Russ Cunningham]

Sorry Jim, like a number of your posts I am struggling to understand what you are saying.

It's code my boy! Clever Jum, you've fooled us all again.

[Trevor Sheffield]

A good point, but I normally read all new forums so I had no problem with the way it is Old fart a bit like the Govment stop the thing thats working {sell everything}

A good point, but I normally read all new forums so I had no problem with the way it is, Oldfart. A bit like the Government, stop the thing thats working. (sell everything) ----- Howsat?

[AMCO72]

Do you want me to translate again?????? On second thoughts I think I should just shut up. Got meself into enough bovver on the HMC site. But hey, we are supposed to be having 'robust' discussion on these forums, and instead folk start having angina attacks at the slightest bit of controversy. That reminds me, must double up on the accurretic tonite!!!!! And thats not code Russ!!!!

[jim short]

Great we are back and alive THE only site that to the wide awake... that was been used was the hmcars input and I enjoy seeing each day in the morning lots of coments real or bu..itSo when only one is been used Why complain You kids go find somwhere else to play You know we should all get together for a few beers on a fishing trip or some thing ,be great those who use an alias could have a mask if they feel the need or then again I dont swim all that well

[RGM]

This could be an interesting thread,as a competitor joining the historic racing scene in the early 80s it is quite different today.
The range of cars around then was quite wide ranging compared to today as we have gone down the path of one type classing ieFormula Junior/Formula Ford etc.
Lots of the older slower cars and specials seem to have gone or now in the vintage group.
We did have some weird and scary grid mixes in years gone by as a lot of meetings Historics were all lumped together and I can well remember racing the Buckler in the same race as a Formula 5000,you sure stay alert.
I have always liked speed groups as in this format you can have a mix of car types in the same race just keep saloons sports and single seaters separate.

[screwdriver]

Generally, I totally agree with the previous post. It has to be speed groups. However, as there is usually a dearth of sports cars and an over abundance of saloons, I don't have a problem mixing the two. I just happen to run a very low car, but I am extra careful as racing against side any Jaguar saloon for example, then I know he can't see, me even if I am right alongside as my roof is below his window and I may not be in his mirror at all.
Currently (North Island) we have a logical progression for classic saloons and sports cars that has worked quite well for several years.
1) Classic trial for beginners and those who do not want to race seriously - clubsport licence. Cages not required.
2) Alfa, BMW E series, AES, Japanese Classics - race beginners accepted as are more experienced drivers - rules vary from no rollover protection to compulsory
3) BMW Open (though they are also looking to split), Arrow Wheels and I suggest most Muscle Cars belong in this category, for faster and more experienced drivers.

We now have one or two extra classes being promoted such as ACEs for slow race cars, MG Series, under 3000cc (that may or may not attract new drivers) and now we have Historic race saloons - a category that needs to be available.

All have their converts and the none one make series may also accept cars running in the one make classes, which means that Alfa, MG & BMW drivers may have more than one option.

The danger of extra classes is that if they do not attract new competitors, then the promoters lose out on potential entry fees where a car is entered in two classes at the one meeting, unless they charge an additional fee and currently, most do not.

Single seaters and the historics have their own structures, but tiny grids of 4 cars just to let a race group run, are not much good for anyone.

[AMCO72]

RGM, if you did race in classic/historic type racing in the early 80's, you will notice a BIG difference in the speed of these cars today. In the old BMC classic series at Taupo, cars that used to be front runners then, are sitting in about midfield now. I was away from the race scene for about 20 years then came back, with the same car, and couldn't believe how FAST everyone had got in the intervening years. Everyone is getting serious......for what, surely not to win!!! Ford Escorts that used to put out 120 hp are now putting out double that. I well remember one competitor turning up at Taupo with a very nice, and very fast, car one year, and all of a sudden that car became the benchmark for everyone else, or you just looked silly on the track. This trend seems to have continued. Probably would have been fine if you had been competing all those years, but to come back into it after an absence it was a big shock.
Keeping saloons and open cars separate might make some sense, but we had a similar situation in the HMC races at HD. Some of the Muscle Cars were left-hand drive so that added an extra hazzard, as well as the height difference. When you look at the photos of the racing, the Mini is almost invisible when surrounded by larger cars. You really do have to have eyes in the back of your head.
When we went to the South Island last year I really enjoyed racing with a big mix of cars, something we dont do to that extent up here. and so long as we are all similar in performance it is ok. Might depend on the track as some definately suit a Mini and some dont......the ones with long fast straights. But at least there is a lot of overtaking and not just processional 'racing'.
Seems everyone agrees on the need for well supported grids, as small fields get a bit ho-hum......time to visit the hot-dog stand.

[AMCO72]

Going on from there.......we seem to have been talking a lot about having FUN while competing on the track. I used to watch the BNT V8's a bit in the past and could never understand how those poor people at the back of the field, with 30 cars in front of them, could possibly be having fun. They were always in the same position at every meeting, so why didn't they just give up. Well they did eventually......must have been slow learners!!

It always amuses me that the comments on having FUN are from the people at the pointy end of the grid. I could suggest that they remove 4 spark-plug leads [the ones I specify] from their V8's then go out and race. They would soon be trailing around at the rear of the field wishing the bloody race would finish and definately not having FUN. Coming into the pits when everyone is giving them the 'poor sod' look, as though they had been driving Grandmas Ford Pop, while the rest of the competitors are sitting comfortably in their garages munching egg sandwiches and sipping cheeky cranberry juice! No one has ever asked me, if after coming in last, whether I was having fun. They would be liable to get an egg sandwich in their face.

Someone was talking about speed groups which I happen to think is a great way to go. The decade system used at the Bruce McLaren festival was hopeless, and I had a long discussion with Mike Sexton on that topic, but he said given the time frame it was the easiest way to do it. The public don't know whether a car is a 1965 or a 1975, and nor do they care. All they want to see is some racing among cars of similar performance. Not 40 cars going round in a procession, no matter how fast. High speed lappery, as Derek Bell of Le Mans fame put it.

Would like to hear others views on this fun thing. Frankly I dont enjoy thrashing a car to within an inch of it's life, that is why Oldfarts pre 60 saloons held such interest for me. Ok you say just get out, and leave the real racing to the real men. Well I might just do that. Licence time coming up in September......MEDICAL!!!!!!!! God I just squeezed through last year, with all sorts of tests on the border-line, and I'll bet all that Kentucky Fried Chicken [tm] has done my arteries no good at all in the last 12 months.

[Carlo]

The fun is being competetive against the benchmark you set for yourself.
As an example I have an Uncle who is in his late 80's and he still competes at the Masters Games in the 10k walk. Last time I went to watch him he was straight over to check the results just as soon as they were published. Naturally he cleaned up the 80+ class but what took my interest was that he was looking at the over 50's times until he explained that his benchmark was to finish under the time set by the 4th placed person in that class. As it was he would have finished 3rd in that class so he went home a very happy man

[Russ Cunningham]

Tend to agree with AMCO. A shame to see old cars turning up with twice the horsepower the had originally. Another display by people with money and limited ability
feeding their egos.

[screwdriver]

My first race was at Pukekohe and the winner was in a Lotus Cortina and his fastest lap was 1:20.
My own current car is bog standard and my initial lap times once I'd got to know it were 1:23. The only items that have changed since about 1991 have been 1" larger wheels and brakes that now last more than 5 laps.
Lap times on a good day are now mid 1:16s and that improvement is almost soley due to tyre technology. Each time I changed tyres, the times came down. With aged tyres, the times always creep back up again.
As AMCO says quite rightly, (car) age means nothing. Generally engine size means very little, so only speed groups and handicap races cover all bases. Classic motorsport is supposed to be about participation and enjoyment but there are still a few who believe winning is the main objective.
I really don't see how anyone can object to speed grouping. Those with bigger budgets who enjoy getting the last ounce out of their cars do so because like the 80 year old masters games runner or any golfer, it is a personal thing.
For me, I can't really go any faster without modifying the car (or taking risks) but as that is not going to happen, I can only aim for consistency and just enjoy the scene.

[Racer Rog]

In the Classic Motor Racing Club meetings, we usually have about 4 grids, dependant on entries, no grid positions, no timing, and grids are made up of big saloons, small saloons, open top sports and GT's and single seater cars, it works and there is some fine racing, as you often are not racing with the guys at the front, but with your buddies in a similar car beside you, and as we have a policy of no winners, but have fun and exercise your car to its and your ability, we have found that timing has not been an issue, and as it would cost more to provide it, it goes down well, our entries fees are set at our AGM every year, and at this point sit at $80.00, and the cub picks up the tab for the difference, it may sound strange, but that's what the members wanted, it all sounds strange, but it works, and when you see the racing, it's impressive, Noddy Murdoch biting on the heels of Jim Little is quite a sight, we are lucky that we have a good bunch of drivers, and panel damage is a rare thing.
Roger

[AMCO72]

So RacerRog, you say no grid positions. What do you do, draw them out of a hat? And when you say BIG saloons and small saloons, is that on engine size or physical size. Eg, I would call an Anglia with a Corvette engine a big saloon, and an Anglia with it's original engine a small saloon. All sounds pretty good to me. Do you have a branch in the North island? My memory of Jim Little is in the Wellington Street Race supports in 1985, I think. He was driving a Black AP5 Valiant, and giving a certain Mini driver an extremely hard time, like trying to T bone him at the hairpin. Then he clipped the curb once too often, and BOOM, flat front tyre. Bye bye Jim. Has he settled down a bit nowdays!!!!

[markec]

No Gerald, he still has moments when Mintie's aren't enough.

[Racer Rog]

Yep, no grid positions, first up best dressed, the reality is that the drivers go to where they are most comfortable, small saloons and big saloons are just that, but we do mix some that are damm quick together, but I doubt if we would have a Angle box with a V8 in it, unless it came with a schedule K CoD, it would not get a look in, we are quite particulat about what can run and what can not, so all vehicles must have a CoD, or a VAC from our club, and as we are the Classic motor Racing Club, the make must have some racing history. Yes Jim's still alive and well, and can still drive the pants off a lot of others, although I think he is mellowing these days.
Roger

[Carlo]

Yep, no grid positions, first up best dressed, the reality is that the drivers go to where they are most comfortable, small saloons and big saloons are just that, but we do mix some that are damm quick together, but I doubt if we would have a Angle box with a V8 in it, unless it came with a schedule K CoD, it would not get a look in, we are quite particulat about what can run and what can not, so all vehicles must have a CoD, or a VAC from our club, and as we are the Classic motor Racing Club, the make must have some racing history. Yes Jim's still alive and well, and can still drive the pants off a lot of others, although I think he is mellowing these days.
Roger

So Roger you are saying that the number that the grid marsahals stick on our steering wheel when we are on the dummy grid means nothing and we are free to line up where ever we want to and that we don't need to hire the transponders for he meeting.

Just wait until the next meeting when all the Shellsport cars running in the small class want to be on pole.