New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC

[screwdriver]

I think that maybe you were too kind to Jimmy Chrystal as he effectively wiped out the BMC Series, by taking the organiser and initiator, to a tribunal, when a leading contender was loaned a car for the last round and all drivers agreed that it was OK. The loaned car was 100% legal and had been run by the owner earlier in the season.

As the driver won the series, Jim objected afterwards, as "it wasn't in the rules" even though he had agreed at the meeting that it was OK. That organiser then walked away from a series he had run for 10 years as he was apalled at the bad sportsmanship shown and the aggravation and stress of a tribunal. It is not what a hard working series organisers wants, needs or deserves.

Although Jim Barclay is adamant that racing is "all about the cars", in truth, racing classics is just as much about driver attitudes and behaviour, on and off the track.

[Dave Silcock]

Hi Dale just got round to reading your eligibility list. What no Jaguars? Could of sworn I saw M Johns Mk2 in the photos posted of the HMC races at the BMW meeting at HD. Cheers Dave.

[AMCO72]

Dale, your post @ 159 gave me a BIT of relief. It seems as though everyone, and not just you, is going to get tough on who and who can't race in these series. I am/was getting a bit nervous about the comments on here, fully expecting someone to start jumping up and down about the Amco Mini. In my defense, every performance part that is on the car was available in 1972, indeed most of what the car is today, is as it was in 1972, EXCEPT for the cubic capacity which has grown by 1/3 of a litre. Most of the bodywork and doors, bonnet, bootlid, subframes, suspension, glass, interior trim, wheels, head & carbs were the actual components used by Rod. The only component that I know that wasn't available back then was the 3.5 ratio straight cut diff, although there were plenty of other options...3.4, 3.6, 3.7. 3.9, 4.1 etc etc. Angus has always wanted to run it EXACTLY as is was in 1972, ie as a 999cc engine, but I have always said no, because as was shown in the Bruce McLaren Festival, Tony Mann with the Sidchrome Imp and Amco Mini trailed away at the rear of the field, and Tony has told me it is unlikely that he will bring the car north again as it is too slow..... we were about 100 hp down on the next group of cars. If and when there is an under 1000cc class then we may have another think, but competing with 3000cc, let alone over 3000cc cars is a bit of an ask, for me anyway.
Thank you for your measured and sensible replies to the queries.

[conrod]

Although Jim Barclay is adamant that racing is "all about the cars", in truth, racing classics is just as much about driver attitudes and behaviour, on and off the track.

I was one of the original committee of 5 that set up the BMW Race Series 5 or 6 years ago. We made a decision early on to go hard on drivers that crash into others on a regular basis. Although several drivers were shown the error of their ways (usually supported with video evidence)and took their "punishment" on the chin, (usually a ban for a certain period of time) we had one driver who was going to take the series to court over it. When you are doing all of this hard work for no monetary gain, the last thing you want is the stress of going to court because some idiot with no idea how to race a car thinks he has the god given right to compete in your series just because he has paid his subs.
I am not involved in the BMW Series any more, but good to see the new committee are still very committed to enforcing a high standard of driver behaviour.

I must add though, the incidence rate has always been very low,considering we had around 100 active competitors at the time. It was usually only 1 or 2 that were causing the problems. I think it is quite important to establish a "culture" of racing early on in the formation of any class, so that everybody is clear on where you stand regarding sub standard driving behaviour. Be tough on them Dale, and good luck!



Conrad

[AMCO72]

Dave, Im sure you are right. I had a dark blue MkII Jaguar in my mirror a couple of times, unless it was an optical delusion. Have you put up some miles on the Blue Car, or are you too busy trying to make a bob to take it out.

[AMCO72]

Screwdriver, as Jim Chrystal is not here to defend himself, it is probably unfair for us to discuss what happened all those years ago. I competed against Jim on a number of occasions in the BMC series at Taupo, and he was always a tough rooster to beat.... he was definately out there to WIN, not come second......'the cars are the stars'!!! The Wolseley 1500 was a much modified car, and there was bugger-all Wolseley about the motor and transmission, but apparently all legal under the rules at the time. I had left the series before the incident you point out happened, but it is sad that Donn White after putting a lot of effort into creating what was a great series, got it all thrown back in his face. I am surprised at all this, as Jim was a committed Christian, as well as a man of the land....an asparagus farmer, so his actions seem at odds to what you would expect.

[screwdriver]

To Conrod & Amco72. The 4 major North Island Series I have alluded to in previous posts do maintain a good control of driver behaviour and I agree conrod, that the standard of driving in all four, bearing mind the decent sized grids (that all cater for beginners), is a big thumbs up for drivers and the various committees/convenors.
AMCO. Jim walked away from the series a year later, clutching half the trophy, when it was announced that it was to be changed to two handicaps, muttering "it is now nothing more than a lottery". He wasn't impressed when the initial tally of 9 survivors were supplemented by other British Leyland products and those of more than 4 cylinders. Winning in classics is not everything, otherwise everyone would be spending big bucks and on the biggest engines and the smaller and medium engined cars would totally disappear and that would be sad.
The classes for the festival as it stands are too much of a performance mix and this has put off several drivers. Whilst an up to 1300cc class sounds great, in practice, laddo in your Mini travels faster than the 4.2 litre Jags and various 2 and 3 litre cars that are not highly modified, so although pre 1975 or 1985 or capacity classes look good on paper, in truth, it would probably be better split by performance to make better racing.

Fifty years ago at any UK club or national meeting, well over threequarters of all cars running would be under 1300cc. NZ has far more of a history of larger engined cars.

[AMCO72]

Yup.....OR handicaps. From what I hear handicap racing is just far too difficult to organise, and of course it doesn't always work out as it should. I really don't care, Im just happy to go out, do a few skids, and have some fun. There is always someone to race round with. Look at the Bruce McLaren Festival pics of the Mini taken by 'Groundsky' and you see what I mean!!!!!!

[Dave Silcock]

Dave, Im sure you are right. I had a dark blue MkII Jaguar in my mirror a couple of times, unless it was an optical delusion. Have you put up some miles on the Blue Car, or are you too busy trying to make a bob to take it out.

Have done 38 miles so far, have an oiling problem on front cylinder which is a pin hole in the valve spring seat leading to the inlet port. This is being rectified as we speak. The car is really amazing way better than I thought it would be. Still no contact from MSNZ!

[Kiwiboss]

We've had to come up with the "Eligibility List" because since January's Festival I've/we've been bombarded with al-sorts of possible vehicles that do(did) qualify but are effectively NOT Muscle cars, and would have a performance advantage to ruin the class, so hence myself, Tony and Steve had to sit down and sort this out(as the Aussie's have done before us) and it wasn't easy. So the list it IS, and believe me i thought i knew of all the possible race cars over 3L and pre 12/77, but NO!! so if you have a car, or looking to build a car that's not on the list it must be pre- approved by us 3 directors first. Remember, the number one theme is "Muscle" and Jaguars are not Muscle cars, more saloon/Touring cars. Mike John kindly raced his Mk2 to help support our grid which i thank him! but his heart is in the smaller cars and raced his Viva at the second meeting. I just haven't got the typing skills to go into great detail on what's happening behind the scene, it is alot, and its also a considerable inve$tment for some so and i can assure you we are on the rite track, and we needed to sort this before anyone started building cars and then told they can't race, I've already pissed off one guy but better do it now than later on down the road when several have built cars.

You guys make me wish i hadn't mentioned Jim Crystal, but my view of him when i was younger is probably the same as i will get with HMC, i thought he was OK back then and sure we all have views about other person's and i can guarantee some have views about me and as HMC grows im sure i'll beable to start my own list, LOL!!

Gerald, your Mini is fantastic so keep it that way!! my interest is in controlling the over 3L HMC cars particularly the V8's as a performance advantage can be gained quite cheaply these days, so long as the U3L cars meet T&C that's all i need to know and as mentioned in post 159 i want to keep the gap close, but i also understand we don't want U3L cars are outside T&C. As for performance levels between the cars, well that's just how Classic racing is! one tends to build/race what they like reliving their youth, that's why i race a Mustang and for no other reason but i still respect every other persons car and opinion and as Gerald stated, you gotta be there for the FUN and no other reason. If i never won another race in my life it'll make no difference to me.

High driving standards is my number one drive and will bring the hammer down big time!! that's why we adopted "the cars are the stars" logo. This is Classic Racing so if ones objective is to win and win all the time it will be pointed out quite smartly that WE are probably not your group, there are plenty of other more serious race groups available.

Now remember you guys, this is all voluntary because we luv out choosen sport/hobby, im lucky im in a business position were i can push HMC during work hours but it still comes at a cost, Steve is doing the same with all the HMC articles, Tony's got enough on his plate as we all know but still has time to sort certain issue's and correct me when i stray, we won't always get it rite but we'll be bloody close and for the sake off "true" classic/ Historic racing we need this to work.

Lifes Good, just remember that.

Dale M

[Grant Ellwood]

Thanks Dale, sounds like a good idea. Just helping someone build a Perana to race in your class (Graeme P)and although it won't have mega power it should be a fun car to drive. The irony is that it would probably be more expensive to build a 3L V6 race engine than it would a Ford V8.
I suppose Firenza's are not exactly thick on the ground, so finding a donor car would be the first stumbling block. And although they have a nice suspension system from memory (double wishbones front/5 link rear?) I don't think you could fit big rubber under the arches, so could be a bit of humour seeing a 600hp Viva racing on 13x7 tyres!

Conrad

Crikey, I suddenly realised that the Perana Capri could be a fast and competitive historic (valuable) racecar. I have a Mk1 Capri V6 laying around (waiting for restoration), wasn't sure what to do with it, but the HMC specs have got me more interested than the Anglia I'm shagging around with at the moment. I did some research on the net, looks like you can do a prod racing version based on the factory 1971 Team Gunston (South Africa) version with safer brakes and good rubber - GT 40 wheels, hope this fits in OK?
Grant Ellwood,Virginia,USA

[Steve Holmes]

This one?

[Kiwiboss]

Crikey, I suddenly realised that the Perana Capri could be a fast and competitive historic (valuable) racecar. I have a Mk1 Capri V6 laying around (waiting for restoration), wasn't sure what to do with it, but the HMC specs have got me more interested than the Anglia I'm shagging around with at the moment. I did some research on the net, looks like you can do a prod racing version based on the factory 1971 Team Gunston (South Africa) version with safer brakes and good rubber - GT 40 wheels, hope this fits in OK?
Grant Ellwood,Virginia,USA

NO Grant, does fit the HMC criterior and we do have several Perana Capris coming but the body work has to be "Standard Series Production" as made by the manufacture with only "lite" fender flaring allowed, the picture Steve as as attached as above would NOT be legal under HMC rules.

Dale M

[Steve Holmes]

[Kiwiboss]

Below is the rule wording for outer body work: I have high lighted the wording for any fender flares:

3.2 Exterior: The vehicle shall be smartly maintained with all exterior trim in place. All Panels, Bumpers, Moldings, Spoilers, etc must be made of the original material, as per the “Standard” Series Production Vehicle. EG Steel Panels must be retained if originally fitted. Any part of the arch/wing pressing folded into the wheel arch may be deformed, but not removed, to give clearance to the tyres.

and although words can be read in many different ways it will be the 3 HMC directors that have the final say. The Lancaster Blue/White Capri Perana is fitted with a 15X8 wheel and has acceptable deformed fender clearance, the orange Gunston Capri does not, as anyone can tell material has been added to make the flare.

Hope this helps

Dale M

[Kiwiboss]

This one?

Capri Fender Flares: Orange Capri NO. Blue/White Capri YES.

[Grant Ellwood]

Thanks for the clarification Dale, the blue Capri spec makes more sense and a cheaper build too! Those knock-off GT40 wheels and hubs on the Gunston car would be an expensive mod. And a V8 would be a lot less costly than building the V6 eg a Roush crate motor here is relatively inexpensive, would only need the sump altered to clear the crossmember.
I'm assuming the full regs are online?
Cheers, Grant

[Howard Wood]

Dale,

It is 1 year today since your first post regarding the HMC series (although obvviously a hell of a lot of work had gone on behind the scenes before then). Pretty amazing progress, interest and results in those 12 months, congratulations and thanks.

Now we need someone to take up the challenge for the under 3 litre class.........?

[AMCO72]

Howard, you are right. With all these 'PIRANHA's coming on stream, we will be swamped with them, almost like the E30's. I can see Dales HMC class being able to fill a full grid at the Festival in January, so us 'little' guys will be out in the cold. I think a few fellas out there have done their sums on this one, and decided the old Capri is the way to go in HMC. I would honestly not want to see dozens of them on the track together. That is one of the things that is so good about HMC......the variety of machinery. But isn't that orange car a ripper!!!! AND, if even our 'Great Helmsman', Chairman Holmes can get it wrong,[or was that just a carefully contrived piece of journalism to draw attention to the issue], what hope is there for others who don't read this forum to get all the ideas being knocked about here. What happens Dale, if 40+ cars are entered....dont laugh, it could happen if this momentum carries on. In other words, if people put their money where their mouth is, this is going to be the ALPHA, or should that be ALFA [oldfart] class of the racing at the Festival. Might just have to take up flag marshalling.

[jim short]

As great as it all is I understand The Beach Hop has cut back on Mustangs just to many make for boring watching,I guess I am a little one eyed just a little but to say a jag is not a muscle car ,only an old saloon and I understand how it hurts when driving your muscle car real fast and this saloon goes past with a cherry wave,