The State of NZ Motorsport.

[jim short]

Gee hope I didnt kill this site but just sitting in the sun thinking about all the neg{help me Amco}atives ,Form Ford always crops up Yet over the last 5yrs, with small feilds somtime only ten cars NZ at the moment we have three young promising future champs competing at Monaco in a couple of weeks and by the same token I have watched large grids of lets say BMWs, That does nothing for me the same as watching the Breakers, nothing but if involved in some way it would be different,Years ago my boys raced pushbikes Geof was Waikato Bay of Plenty sprint champion,,but the road racing was real boring you saw the start then you waited ages for them to return at times so bunched you didnt see what happend Turn the clock when the Muscle cars were curent,how many felt the same way as when they watched the NZ v8s last weekend.It apears some socalled motor enthusiests went home after 2!!!! 2 laps,It didnt stop thousands of others enjoying themselves ,What was the number quoted one hundred and seventeen THOUSAND paid to watch At the last Teratonga NZ v8s in the rain 3 cars produced on of the best races seen, This all that I have written is not to say i watched the whole lot,but the young ones have to start some place today and the v8s are the muscle cars tomorrow

[RogerH]

There is a real dilemma in motor sport that Jim has touched on. In the past such classes as Formula Ford were highly popular with strongly contested large grids. These grids produced a lot of our current top drivers. Now FF is but a shadow of its former self and it is lucky to get a handful of cars.
Where have all the drivers gone to? I'm not too sure but we do seem to have much larger historic and classic grids than we did in the past so maybe this sort of racing is more attractive - at least to a large number of participants.
Despite the spectator numbers at the Hamilton races I don't think the NZV8s were the attraction - the crowds seem to have gone to see the Australian V8 Supercars. When you look at the grids and crowds at the NZV8 races over the last season, it wasn't much better than you get at some club and national meetings - in fact there were so few NZV8s racing that they failed to met the criteria to qualify as a MSNZ championship series (a minimum of 15 entrants at 75% of the races).
I agree with Jim that we need to have a starting series to attract the new young drivers but we don't seem to have produced the right sort of grid to attract them - maybe we have missed the boat completely in that we are trying to provide the sort of grids that interest us but the kids are more interested in Playstation and drifting - not circuit racing??

[screwdriver]

Maybe there are too many grids trying to attract the attention of budding racers? By attention, that means highly sponsored and with TV coverage. With Toyota Race Series as the premier single seater class, plus Suzuki Swifts, V8 Utes, NZV8 and now Super Tourers, all competing for the mighty sponsorship dollar, plus TV coverage (which has to be paid for don't forget -no motorsport is covered for free), where do you position yourself?

There are even budding racers coming through the BMW E30 Series now.

Yet, we probably have more young Kiwis racing internationally than ever before.

The question about the minimum of 15 for a NZ Series needs addressing at conference as from what I have seen of the televised grids this year, there are far too many races where there have been less than 12 starters and if this is televised as the pinnacle of NZ motorsport, no wonder spectators and drivers stay away.

On a different tack, the TV3 coverage I caught up with last night of the last GT1 race at Hamilton was a disgrace. There we were with a massive grid, full of variety and all we saw was about 15% of the runners. TV producers need to understand that when there is variety in the field, we'd like to see it.

In the past, I know that the producers of privately filmed races were told that we wanted to see the whole field, not just the guy at the front - particularly in handicap races.

[richard lester]

There is a real dilemma in motor sport that Jim has touched on. In the past such classes as Formula Ford were highly popular with strongly contested large grids. These grids produced a lot of our current top drivers. Now FF is but a shadow of its former self and it is lucky to get a handful of cars.
Where have all the drivers gone to? I'm not too sure but we do seem to have much larger historic and classic grids than we did in the past so maybe this sort of racing is more attractive - at least to a large number of participants.
Despite the spectator numbers at the Hamilton races I don't think the NZV8s were the attraction - the crowds seem to have gone to see the Australian V8 Supercars. When you look at the grids and crowds at the NZV8 races over the last season, it wasn't much better than you get at some club and national meetings - in fact there were so few NZV8s racing that they failed to met the criteria to qualify as a MSNZ championship series (a minimum of 15 entrants at 75% of the races).
I agree with Jim that we need to have a starting series to attract the new young drivers but we don't seem to have produced the right sort of grid to attract them - maybe we have missed the boat completely in that we are trying to provide the sort of grids that interest us but the kids are more interested in Playstation and drifting - not circuit racing??

couldn't disagree more Roger.
Tier 1 or level 1 motorsport has fallen foul of the economic climate and rising cost's in general for tommorrows talent to try and emerge.
The names Evans/hartley/Stanaway/Dixon have not progressed with mum and dads cash only,all were recognised early and picked up by consortiums or benefactors,but that doesnt happen to all obviously..
most grids are down for the youngsters--look at Karting apart from the big meetings,it starts from there.
a good percentage of parents just cant justify taking a punt and pouring there life into there kids right now when a bit of security is more important.
i have sweated blood with my son Jono to get backing for his racing and to do the TRS season this year we were virtually giving away sponsorship packages and doing all sorts of contra's to make it happen and we were fortunate to get a GT contract in japan out of doing the series(almost free)......
The sponsorship dollar is extremely hard to get now especially if you are unestablished--dont forget that the majority of classic/historic racing has competitors who by and large have reached the mid to later age bracket and are reaping the rewards of their years of toil in the business world.
i think its incorrect to generalise the current state of motorsport here the big grid classes as being the favourite of competitors and crowds alike.
Dont get me wrong the muscle cars etc etc are great to watch and sound fantastic but we also live in a modern world that keeps marching forward.if you guys have been around as long as some of you state you will well know that the top end of the sport goes in cycles of strength and this would be about number 5 or 6 in my lifetime and will come right again in the future as it always does......
Guys V8 SUPERCARS were the main attraction at hamilton-- every other class was a support class to make up an interesting overall program.
Just because one or two of you thought the nzv8's were rubbish doesnt mean everyone thought the same.I have spoken to many people who thought they were great....
remember that most of the new youngsters coming or- not coming into the sport come in because they want.. to and have either parental or commercial backing of some sort....most dont yet know or have not heard the various gripes and complaints about the governing body or event management etc etc that fill the forums, so i dont think MNZ can be soley blamed for struggling grids.
MNZ did years ago start letting individual series registers have more control of what and how they move forward which has resulted in some good and some bad areas of the sport..
i could go on and on but now need a jim beam.........

[screwdriver]

Understand all that Richard, but you cannot deny that if tier 1 is promoted as the pinnacle of motorsport, then surely it is far better to maintain two or three well supported classes only and fill the remainder of the meeting from local competitors and decent grids. It doesn't have to be the same old, same old format at every round.

Concentrating on just two makes is a massive step backwards and as the majority of youngsters don't even support either of them, why are we surprised when they would rather watch smokey drifters using cars they identify with?

It is very telling when you go a to BBQ and the lady of the house says how much she enjoyed her first ever visit to a race track (Hampton Downs in this case), but was surprised that all the people were so friendly. When asked why she was surprised, she said that she expected a load of foul mouthed bearded bogans.

If that is the perception of a mature Kiwi lady, then we have more of an image problem than we realise - and not just amongst the youngsters.

To encourage youngsters, we have to do what was suggested at a recent meeting in Auckland, and get out to the high schools to sell the sport and also the opportunities for helpers. As was also stated, the schools recognise excellence on the rugby field, but those involved in any motorsport no matter how successful, rarely get a mention. Ditto the press coverage.

We all know that after soccer, worldwide, Motorsport is the most watched sport of all, but you wouldn't know it in NZ as the non specialist press can't see beyond rugby in the winter and cricket in the summer. Even the NZV8s get just about zero coverage and they certainly won't even get a mention on TV1!

[Racer Rog]

ScrewDriver, the lady must have lead a very sheltered life, thank your lucky stars she has never meet me, and the Lord only knows what she would have thought if she had visited a race meeting in the early 70's, meetings these days are rather tame compared with what went on way back then, on another subject, level entry single seaters, why do we still have an old nail of a engine, which some people have spent vast amounts of money on, I have been quoted figures of $20k, no wonder grids are empty, the SCCA has addressed this, and called this class Formula F, and they use two engines, the Kent, and the Honda Fit engine, and a package from Honda Proformace is about US$15k, or you can supply your own engine and get the add ons from them, yes its EFI, has a restrictor, but that the extent of any mods to the engine it self ( other than the dry sump, ECU and gearbox adaptor) you can not touch the engine parts, they must remain standard, so there is not the great expense of making a engine that was designed to give 68HP make 112HP, plus being a Honda, you don't need to pull it down every meeting, they are starting to get very good fields in this class, with a lot of old racers coming back and converting their Kent powered cars to Honda.
Roger

[jim short]

I dont disagree with any of the above but my main point is at the moment, when was the last time we had 3 young very very good young drivers competing ay Monaco Stanaway Evans Cassidy not since McLaren Hulme and Amon. The question is do you really need large feilds to produce top class drivers This harping about needing 15 cars at the end of the day proves nothing ,if I am wrong and if I think hard and long there was a time I was sadly mistaken,then again perhaps next year 3 of the BMW drivers will shine as they have large entrys. the future looks exciting manz ST ect roll on 2013

[jim short]

About two yrs. ago the idea was to follow the AUSSIES, There Form. Ford use a Focus unbreakable motor they buy and dyno batch of five or ten?when you need a motor it costs $12.000 and you buy it of the FFclub,but doing this will not keep engine builders happy in NZ

[Oldfart]

Jim, depends whether you are talking about finding world class drivers,entertainment package, or a place for enthusiasts to use their cars.
Currently it seems to me that Motorsport (the organisation) have failed to recognize that there are these distinctions, and more importantly failed to cater for them.
Some people on here have a particular bent, harping about one of these facets, when I thiink all need to be catered for.
In the "good old days" there was less distinction as the first of these was un-needed, as in most cases the "cream will rise to the top". Our best drivers went to grass track, hillclimbs, in fact anything going, that's where the McLaren, Hulme, Amon and countless others came from, including our world class mechanics.
Sailing did the same, when there were thousands of people sailing at club level this country produced many world championship level sailors, now most clubs struggle to hold a race day and there are few.

[richard lester]

Understand all that Richard, but you cannot deny that if tier 1 is promoted as the pinnacle of motorsport, then surely it is far better to maintain two or three well supported classes only and fill the remainder of the meeting from local competitors and decent grids. It doesn't have to be the same old, same old format at every round.

Concentrating on just two makes is a massive step backwards and as the majority of youngsters don't even support either of them, why are we surprised when they would rather watch smokey drifters using cars they identify with?

It is very telling when you go a to BBQ and the lady of the house says how much she enjoyed her first ever visit to a race track (Hampton Downs in this case), but was surprised that all the people were so friendly. When asked why she was surprised, she said that she expected a load of foul mouthed bearded bogans.

If that is the perception of a mature Kiwi lady, then we have more of an image problem than we realise - and not just amongst the youngsters.

To encourage youngsters, we have to do what was suggested at a recent meeting in Auckland, and get out to the high schools to sell the sport and also the opportunities for helpers. As was also stated, the schools recognise excellence on the rugby field, but those involved in any motorsport no matter how successful, rarely get a mention. Ditto the press coverage.

We all know that after soccer, worldwide, Motorsport is the most watched sport of all, but you wouldn't know it in NZ as the non specialist press can't see beyond rugby in the winter and cricket in the summer. Even the NZV8s get just about zero coverage and they certainly won't even get a mention on TV1!

hey screwdriver we are mixing issues with issues here.my post was about the lack of numbers and young guys in some of the tier 1 classes.it was not a rant against MNZ or what is best or most popular or what 'one' lady thinks of motorsports image.
I agree totally with you that Tier 1 needs a few core classes bulked up by a regular selection of the vast number of good register categories that we are fortunate to have.My understanding is that there are some significant program changes afoot for next season.
on press coverage--well nothing new here,i grew up with manfeild and my father battled constantly with the dominion as it was then and even our own manawatu evening standard for coverage--In short you make your own press coverage.the best example i could give would be my own son--google Jono lester sometime and see what you can achieve for yourself by using your smart's......

[Lurker]

--In short you make your own press coverage.the best example i could give would be my own son--google Jono lester sometime and see what you can achieve for yourself by using your smart's......

I did just that and well done, Richard, you have certainly used the web and social media to very good effect. All this exposure at zero cost other than an investment of time.

[Kiwiboss]

As a Classic/Historic guy only i couldn't agree more with Richard Lester, these are changing times with everything, let alone motorsport, a decision made either way can make or break you at the moment and i see MSNZ as no different, we all have great ideas on what they should do and not do etc, but no matter what it is not everyone will be pleased. My main interest "is not" Tier 1 so from an othersider with motorsport interest i view Tier1 as having its ups and down's just like the rest of the world. So in down times you only have 15 cars, wow thats still not bad(for NZ with 4.5 pop) as long as the playing feild is level and the racing good!! so the crowds are down? its just ecomonic times and too many other things to spend money on(i have that problem). You can not take it away from the V8 supercars, they are a travelling motorsport circus, i too thought the racing was great and so did many others i spoke to, and althought "I knew" the support class's didn't have a very level playing field most others were well entertained, maybe, just maybe MSNZ should look at some of the more semi professional class's like GT1 and Central at there events as crowd entertainment? until times come rite and other class' like FF/Porshe/Suzuki's numbers lift?

At the V8's i spoke with Andrew McKenzie about the new NZV8 and i believe by having the Coyote motor in the Falcon and the LS3 chevy in the Holden will have a better look than the Supertourers have with there all chevy engine.

As for organising our "Historic Muscle Cars" group i have learnt by looking overseas that i don't want TV or a high public profile, this is what ruins most low key historic and Class race groups, it attracts the wrong person! and ususaly a person that want's to bring a gun to a knife fight thats NOT in the spirit of classic racing, we don't want that. so Richard is correct in saying most Historic/Class racers are middle age and maybe sold up a bussiness, sitting back with a couple of mill in the bin and looking to have there last hurar!! HMC is not for these guys, i only want the fun racer that is attarcted to the Historic events like the Festival of Motor racing, guess time will tell if i got it rite?.

Dale M

[AMCO72]

Dale, I love your comment about taking a gun to a knife fight. I'm afraid we only bought a pea-shooter; and you dont want the retired entrepreneurial business man with a couple of million in the bin getting in on the act. I think most of these guys have 'better' things to spend their millions on, boats is the preferred thing. I certainly did not see any of that type at HMC, and not at the Roycroft festival either. Having said that, you still need a few bob to do what we do, and there are some pretty well-healed chaps in there. Fun racing or not, it can still run away with a lot of $$$$$$$$ for the two weekends at the HD Festival. As a poor pensioner, I am saving up for the Denny Hulme show in January, and hope that 'my man' will stump up a few dollars for repairs should they be necessary. As I have said before....'you got it rite'

[Grant Ellwood]

Jim, depends whether you are talking about finding world class drivers,entertainment package, or a place for enthusiasts to use their cars.
Currently it seems to me that Motorsport (the organisation) have failed to recognize that there are these distinctions, and more importantly failed to cater for them.
Some people on here have a particular bent, harping about one of these facets, when I thiink all need to be catered for.
In the "good old days" there was less distinction as the first of these was un-needed, as in most cases the "cream will rise to the top". Our best drivers went to grass track, hillclimbs, in fact anything going, that's where the McLaren, Hulme, Amon and countless others came from, including our world class mechanics.
Sailing did the same, when there were thousands of people sailing at club level this country produced many world championship level sailors, now most clubs struggle to hold a race day and there are few.

Some countries rank motorsport up there with soccer and other ball sports, not so NZ, no wonder there is little media coverage.
USA has reasonable coverage of Indy car, ALMS and Daytona Prototypes but nothing compares to NASCAR. A sport that is discussed just like rugby back home by most of the east coast population and a pretty good percentage of the rest of the country.
Not my favourite type of racing but it helps the other classes get coverage.
Cheers, Grant Ellwood

[screwdriver]

Love that bit about a couple of mil in the bank! The guys I race against are very down to earth (includes pensioners and even AMCO72 now and again!) and I am not sure what the average age is these days, but I know it has always been over 50. What we are finding now is that as guys retire, most do not have a vast nest egg and whereas when they were working, a major mechanical could be fixed within a couple of weeks or less, now they may be out for months or even a season.

Oldfart is correct in that we have to look at broad issues and the whole shooting match has to be a balance. It doesn't matter whether it is a tier 1 meeting or a classic/historic meeting.

That balance has to cater for the interests of a) drivers b) promoters c) officials d) spectators.

Having worn all 4 hats at various times, I know only too well you will always upset someone or disappoint someone.

Having been stuck on a marshals post for a NZ GP a fair few years ago, I can remember vividly the abject boredom of about 9 starters and being stuck on a post in the middle of the back straight at Pukekohe. Small grids are a curse as the promoters lose out, the spectators lose out and the officials/flaggies lose out. I am not sure that the drivers are too keen about the small grids either, so for me, one of the biggest priorities is that most grids are a fair bit fuller than what we have seen in recent years. Thank goodness Muscle cars and the GT1 were televised.

I think Jim #147 is totally underestimating the negative vibes that these small grids create. Sorry, but I wouldn't cross the road to watch a race meeting where most grids are under 15 and would consider that paying to watch is a rip off. Dale is correct, there are many other places competing for our hard earned dollar (or pension), so a promoter who tries to encourage one specific class as it grows is acceptable, but a meeting where the majority of classes are small is for club meetings where costs can be trimmed by eliminating such expenses as a pro commentator and PA system, advertising etc and the entry fees have to cover all expenditure. Televising is expensive and like Dale, I would hope that our committee wouldn't waste the money on it again as they did try it few years ago and it proved to be a total waste of money - though one of the sponsors thought it worth a gamble.

[Carlo]

couldn't disagree more Roger.
Tier 1 or level 1 motorsport has fallen foul of the economic climate and rising cost's in general for tommorrows talent to try and emerge.
The names Evans/hartley/Stanaway/Dixon have not progressed with mum and dads cash only,all were recognised early and picked up by consortiums or benefactors,but that doesnt happen to all obviously..
most grids are down for the youngsters--look at Karting apart from the big meetings,it starts from there.
a good percentage of parents just cant justify taking a punt and pouring there life into there kids right now when a bit of security is more important.
i have sweated blood with my son Jono to get backing for his racing and to do the TRS season this year we were virtually giving away sponsorship packages and doing all sorts of contra's to make it happen and we were fortunate to get a GT contract in japan out of doing the series(almost free)......
The sponsorship dollar is extremely hard to get now especially if you are unestablished--dont forget that the majority of classic/historic racing has competitors who by and large have reached the mid to later age bracket and are reaping the rewards of their years of toil in the business world.
i think its incorrect to generalise the current state of motorsport here the big grid classes as being the favourite of competitors and crowds alike.
Dont get me wrong the muscle cars etc etc are great to watch and sound fantastic but we also live in a modern world that keeps marching forward.if you guys have been around as long as some of you state you will well know that the top end of the sport goes in cycles of strength and this would be about number 5 or 6 in my lifetime and will come right again in the future as it always does......
Guys V8 SUPERCARS were the main attraction at hamilton-- every other class was a support class to make up an interesting overall program.
Just because one or two of you thought the nzv8's were rubbish doesnt mean everyone thought the same.I have spoken to many people who thought they were great....
remember that most of the new youngsters coming or- not coming into the sport come in because they want.. to and have either parental or commercial backing of some sort....most dont yet know or have not heard the various gripes and complaints about the governing body or event management etc etc that fill the forums, so i dont think MNZ can be soley blamed for struggling grids.
MNZ did years ago start letting individual series registers have more control of what and how they move forward which has resulted in some good and some bad areas of the sport..
i could go on and on but now need a jim beam.........

What he said

[richard lester]

What he said

[Trevor Sheffield]

The extent of keyboard pounding on display is truly “awesome” but inconsequential.

I am taking a special interest because the current situation mirrors problems I was involved with over fifty years ago when secretary of the Northern Sports Car Club, i.e. the attitude and performance of the governing body and most important the situation effecting individual members who directly finance that governing body.

MototSport NZ confines itself to a single constitutional obligation and that is towards member clubs, not in any way motor sportsmen as individuals. All member clubs have equal voting rights regardless of the number of individuals they represent. The government of N.Z. motor sport therefore is and always has been, undemocratic.

A virtual anarchy holding a monopoly was created way back, whereby a group of not necessarily qualified bureaucrats, can and have over the years, had a ball playing at/with motor sport to the detriment of the majority involved. Change the situation or lump it. I could get no takers in respect of action over fifty years ago and sadly find this thread full of hot air.

Sincerely, Trevor.

[markec]

Perhaps part of the appeal of historic racing is that there are a lot of average drivers putting on a display of little competitions within each race that the paying public seem to enjoy so much, isn't this what used to happen with the Mini 7's and formula fords of times gone by.They weren't the fastest cars out there but they were the most interesting even though at the time people were putting them down.But they were talking about the many close ,incidents and overtaking maneuvers that went on.And then there was the Sports sedans/OSCA cars, but it was the noise and speed that appealed, the slower closer classes were the ones that were remembered.

[jim short]

Well the answere? is right in front but we dont want to see , we are getting bloody old.Fifty years ago we used to spend time at the races just walking in the car park drooling over the cars ,I also enjoyed hillclimbs inspite of having to walk and stand in fern ect!!and beleive it or not the feilds consisted of only one car,one of the worst hills was Peach rd. Ramarama up the top lived Noel Foster D and E Type parked in one shed a couple of Rileys one a Brooklands in another ,this was real steep and quite a few offs I remember a red TD over the side a large tee tree stopped him halfway down, he was followed by a young chap borrowed his dads new red zepher? {I was never a Ford fan} a mk 1 convertable went even further down the hill,The most exciting moment when over the pa system{went all the way up the hill?}was this v12 winding up getting closer and louder the crowd and there was crowds there finally this little Gogamoble appears at about 20mph ,I am pretty sure it had a copper exhaust,it may have been Bob? Merv Neil bobtail was ?/there plus the P3 Alfa