The State of NZ Motorsport.

[screwdriver]

What is so difficult these days about an on line poll of licence holders - rally on major rally issues, racers on major race issues etc? It is no longer rocket science as MSNZ have already run at least one poll - but not on the issues. More efficient than relying on a club to collect info.

However, as anyone who has ever polled its club members will tell you, you'll be lucky to get a 15% response rate which in itself is a problem, so, you make it part of the on line licence renewal. (I presume most on here with licences do now renew on line?) I have to say that MSNZ has to be applauded for getting up to date with on line renewals - though I did receive two licences this year.

Re running under the VCC banner - we already have the volunteers and the online entry systems and whether we pay a permit fee to MSNZ or VCC and run under their auspices makes no difference, but it would allow race meetings to run with a mix of pre and post 1960 cars, effectively making VCC a breakaway organisation.

It was rather a tongue in cheek suggestion of course, but MSNZ often do not seem to understand many of the issues of running a vintage car or even a relatively unmodified classic car, without demanding F1 safety standards and an oppressive red tape regime. Better to leave all those issues totally to a separate organisation even if under the MSNZ umbrella, as several of the key issues over recent years have made running a classic or a historic harder, not to mention more expensive, rather than easier and cheaper.

[jim short]

My point was Dont spoil this site ..take you moans to ten tenths and I have my say without including Geof or Martin who do not need any help from me..next year will be interesting as motorsport has been down this road many times Trans Ams all over again!

[RogerH]

N.B. The Constitution of Motorsport includes Rule 5.1:- Motorsports membership shall comprise of clubs who are interested in automobile sport and who are accepted by Motorsport as its members.

The other MSNZ membership criteria is :

Application for Membership: A club or organisation which is interested in automobile sport and which is an incorporated society may apply to MotorSport to be a member.

So a MSNZ qualifying club or organisation needs to be an Incorporated Society which under the Act needs a minimum 15 members at the time of incorporation. However, there is no MSNZ ongoing test regarding minimum members numbers. I have heard of a MSNZ club which fell to one member - yet they had a vote exactly the same as a club with 300 members.

[jim short]

Just a small point how many thousands enjoyed the Hamilton race???

[Kwaussie]

Kwaussie did - the entire weekend was great.
Shame that aussie TV lost the last two laps of the final, the presenters were mortified. They made up for the NZ connection problem by replaying a couple of times.
Very good presentation. Must go - GP about to come in live!

[PaulieG]

My point was Dont spoil this site ..take you moans to ten tenths and I have my say without including Geof or Martin who do not need any help from me..next year will be interesting as motorsport has been down this road many times Trans Ams all over again!

Trans Ams again???? Haven't heard that one, but oh well at least we know what to expect aye
No one wants to spoil this site, I for one think its fantastic and it has been invaluable in my research, I seem to spend quite a lot of my free (and not so free) time on here just reading the yarns on here and looking at the awesome photos.

[jim short]

Trans Ams came about when certan folk could not get control over Sports Sedans,thats partly true ,Bob will know all the details.Sports Sedans {north island } and Osca {south island} had a great run in the 80s almost an open book build what you like capri v8s and rx7 v8s were popular plus many other makes and the crowds loved them Bay Park was there home thanks to Peter Hanna most of the muscle cars shown on here pos. ran there, then feb each yr. a north v south 5 car team ran at Teratonga Levels Ruapuna Manfield and Bay Park,then a certan gent and I use that word against my better judgment ,decided lets get some Trans Ams from USA only $150.000 each!!! hell my share into the Porsche was under $5000 and with the prizemoney we picked up I survived over 5yrs. raced at ever track had a great 5yrs .Just imagine starting between Algees Alfa and Huxfords Capri ! the noise the ground shook.with Osbourne right on your tail ,when he put on his overalls it just payed to stay clear!!yet off the track a real good guy.Then the cheating started the Ford Mercure ex USA only 50 made totally eligale{the rules stated 1000 had to be made} but it wiped the field and so on end the end they ran like the ST are already dueing follow the leader {but the costs will be down the motors are so good!! ask Andy Knight!!!} If and if anyone wants the complete storey go to Rotorua and speak to Mr Willis the same man who almost on his own rebuilt and restored all those Cat machines in the NZ Catapillar experiance on old Taupo rd. oppersite the gondalas. He has been involved with motorsport for yrs. and a straight talker,and as far as msnz Roger H and Trevor are propably trying to do the best they can for the sport,But after spending 3days reading the nzv8s and the nzv8s of tomorrow !1 on the ten tenths some and the same man using 3 different names the jelousey they make me feel ill come on motor sport is for fun and more fun I mean it costs enough!! OK Amco now all you have to do is correct the odd spelling mistake made on purpus

[AMCO72]

Jim, I'm far too busy correcting my own spelling mistakes to be worrying about yours. I don't care how many times you read what you've written before pushing the reply button, there will always be words missed, or wrong spelling, or comas and full stops missed out. Really you should get someone to proof read it for you, but who is going to do that. As Steve said, we all make mistakes with grammar..... Now, completely changing the subject Jim, I really must take issue with you about your recent postings on this thread. It is NO use going back to the 'good old days', and WERE they that good anyway, about how motorsport used to be. Those days are gone forever. We have to move on, yes there have been mistakes, and if we can influence how things are done today and in the future by lobbying or other means, well so be it. But it is no use getting an ulcer over it all. You had your fun way back when, just like the guys today are having their fun now, and the next generation will have fun in their own way. As I see it, us OLD guys, yes, you and me Jim, would be far better off joining in VCC events. After the Roycroft Trophy weekend, I am more convinced of than ever. The members, well a lot of them, are more our age..... you wont find the 15 year old hotshots that are racing today, because they would find what we like deadly dull. You have your memories, and I have mine, and on a forum like this it is good to share. Some of our tales of derring-do spun here on Y & Y by Bob, Bry, thunder 427 etc, make great reading, and we can relive those times simply by telling the 'new-boys', how it used to be. Some of them of course couldn't care less about the old days, but I like to think that chaps that browse this forum have an interest in the history of motor racing in NZ, and by crikey, hasn't there been a wealth of stuff posted on these pages, which might have been lost forever if Steve hadn't started RS. Now Jim, after you have read this, two or three times hopefully, to get right meaning, you can sit down with a nice glass of rum and think about what I have said. And I can guarantee there will be some spelling mistakes........ Henry Ford said something interesting, which sort of applys to how the modern generation think...........'History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition, we want to live in the present, and the only History that is worth a tinkers damn, is the history that we make today'....... I know thats not the way you and I think, but thats OK, I'm quite happy just tooling along, glad that I was born when I was.

[Oldfart]

To paraphrase that, my son, now working as a design engineer at Triumph Motorcycles (I am allowed to skite) was discussing with the owner of the company some previous (exciting) projects that did not make the market, and was told "Good to remember those, but we must always look forward, learn from the mistakes, but don't regret the past"

[AMCO72]

......Absolutely spot on. Could have saved myself all that writing, and Jim all that reading!!!.....AND...another Henry Fordism.......'you cant build a reputation on what you are going to do'

[Dave Silcock]

I don't why we are getting into whats happening to modern motor sport, excepting that it shows up what is wrong with the administation we have at the moment, as shown by issues Roger H and Trevor Sheffield among others have high lighted. You have got to ask yourself '' if you were young would you start motor racing to day''? In almost every case I would say the people on this forum would not. Firstly people like Bob, Jamie, Rik, myself and many others are not wanted. Its got to be a level playing field for that nut behind the wheel ! Its Ok to import a top driver but we can't be having any clever engine tuners messing things up can we now. This is why I myself would not race in modern racing today. Interresting to note that formula Ford was one of the first of this type and I am in formed a cross flow Kent for this formula today can cost you $30000!!! Although some of you don"t like a bit of tweaking [they were never this fast in the day sort of thing] if we in this type of old timer racing could not do it, you would not have the Foggy Mini or my Mk2. I think we need a complete break away from the mainstream and do our own thing. If you have been paying attention to my other posts you would realise that MSNZ has no automatic right to tell us what to do . I refer to decision 242 which none of our pro MSNZ members has chosen to refute.

[jim short]

Now Amco just settle down ,,the gist of my learned reply was for PaulieG,,and an ulcer never I actually enjoy debating with tall folk,,But Paulie G asked about Trans Ams .You mention I sort of live in the past not sure about that but to keep a car over 40yrs, pos,explains that loyalty is a good word..and you mention moving on as most of my tirade was {hope you got that word}about sports sedans cant honestly remember you been there and I may go ino the past only in the hope of not making the same mistakes!!But you continually go back to Henry Ford I ask you?? and between you and me I coudnt give a toss about STbut I can understand your stance now that you are one of the Dads,finally if I had known how upset you got never in a million yrs. would have got a ride in that lovelly two seater Austin 7 at HD,,and lastly prune juice is working better than the rum!!!

[screwdriver]

The level playing field does not exist in most classics/historics, unless they were a controlled formula in their day, such as Historic Formula Ford. From memory, and I am sure RogerH will put me straight, in its day, Formula Junior only had one class but the cars developed over time, from the mini front engined GP cars to mini rear engined GP cars. Now, to even things out a wee bit, they have several classes.

It is sad when many walk away from racing, thinking it is too expensive to be competitive, when there are in fact classes where a Jaguar V12 can race against a 4 cylinder Ford Escort, a Ferrari V8 or a Jaguar XJ6 or almost any Porsche. It is called handicap racing and whilst some decry it, those who compete in it appreciate that a midly modified Ford Escort stands just as much chance of overall honours as Bruce Manon's highly modified car, or Tony Roberts 700bhp Chev Corvette or Foggy's Mini. Even Gerald can race it in the other class on the same day if he wants. It means that those who want to apply a bit of classic expertise still can, either as a driver or mechanic, but if they go faster, then the handicap is tougher. Equally, Mike John can race Dave's Mk2, keeping it totally period.

Variety is far more attractive than NZV8, Aussie V8, or Super Tourers, but the majority of casual punters appear to like the V8s - any V8s, nothing but V8s, but I am sure they do want to see full grids and a fair bit of overtaking, not 10 car processions.

[Racer Rog]

One of the aims of the CoD system is give a even field when racing classic's and with the Audit program starting to take effect it is doing that, does it need more teeth? that is something that does need to be discussed, and at the H & C Commission forum at the AGM, maybe this will be talked (shouted?) about, and while Bruces car is well built, it does not comply with any set of regulations other than Schedule A, so its just a club car that looks like a Escort, I am very much in favour of the term, "as it was, so it shall be", and in fact don't mind a replica, as long as it follows that guide line. In Historic racing overseas they are taking a very firm line on this now, the FIA does allow replicas, and you can get a HTP for one,But it must be same as same as
And in taking the subject back to the topic, I do tend to think that some at the top table have lost the plot, in terms of what is wanted in Motor Sport in NZ, as our elected servants, they are there to govern the sport, not to set up so called money making companies.

The level playing field does not exist in most classics/historics, unless they were a controlled formula in their day, such as Historic Formula Ford. From memory, and I am sure RogerH will put me straight, in its day, the formula only had one class but the cars developed over time, from the mini front engined GP cars to mini rear engined GP cars. Now, to even things out a wee bit, they have several classes.

It is sad when many walk away from racing, thinking it is too expensive to be competitive, when there are in fact classes where a Jaguar V12 can race against a 4 cylinder Ford Escort, a Ferrari V8 or a Jaguar XJ6 or almost any Porsche. It is called handicap racing and whilst some decry it, those who compete in it appreciate that a midly modified Ford Escort stands just as much chance of overall honours as Bruce Manon's highly modified car, or Tony Roberts 700bhp Chev Corvette. It means that those who want to apply a bit of classic expertise still can, but if they go faster, then the handicap is tougher, but equally, Mike John can race Dave's Mk2, keeping it totally period.
Variety is far more attractive than NZV8, Aussie V8, or Super Tourers, but the majority of casual punters appear to like the V8s - any V8s, nothing but V8s.

[screwdriver]

Appendix K copes adequately with purist competition cars but the CoD does not make a blind bit of difference to the level playing field when all cars are so different, so you are missing the point. I have had my CoD since they first came out and it has never been out of the envelope it arrived in.

The T & C rules are at best a guide, but don't address several issues (what is a thoroughbred?) and insist on originality in areas that do not affect the performance one iota. If you run an MGB or a Ford Escort, parts are cheap and readily available, but have you considered the originality problems of running a Mk 7 Jaguar or a 1965 Ford Zephyr?

As far as most people are concerned, classic racing would be a lot poorer without the likes of Bruce Manon and without them and their cars, MSNZ and the race promoters would be worse off, so every one else then has to pay more for a meeting to break even.

Weeding out every single car that is not 100% period correct is fine if you believe totally in Appendix K and nothing else, but when HRC put in a class for Appendix K cars - there were two... They haven't bothered since as it is not what the majority of drivers want.

The drivers know what they want as do the various series committes or organisers. It doesn't need a set of MSNZ rules to decide what Alfas should and shouldn't run. That is up to the Alfa Trofeo committee and no one else. If they get it wrong, their series falls over. If they get it right, it succeeds.

Dale Mathers is building up support for the Historic Muscle Cars and I for one believe his series will be successful, but at this stage there are many who still want a looser set of rules. Nothing to do with MSNZ.

With any set of series rules, there are always dissenters and their options are straightforward. Either conform, set up your own series or go to a club race meeting, but therein lies the problem. Currently, a one day classic meeting will attract more entrants than a club meeting - and that is without CoDs. TACCOC meeting entries have shrunk dramatically ever since they adopted meetings that are "CoD only" and effectively turned away Alfas and other non CoD series. Are they getting larger grids without the Bruce Manon's? No.

[Oldfart]

Screwdriver, are you confusing Historic Formula Ford with Formula Junior?

[screwdriver]

Screwdriver, are you confusing Historic Formula Ford with Formula Junior?

Sorry, yes. I missed out the "Junior" bit. Now corrected it. Thanks for pointing that out.

[RogerH]

Just a few things related to the previous few posts. Firstly, the remits presented to the forthcoming MSNZ Council meeting have not been submitted in order to create some sort of gratuitous aggravation. They are a genuine attempt by people who care for motor sport in NZ to correct issues that they believe are hindering the growth and enjoyment of particularly the historic and classic fraternity. There are some elements within the sport who, for their own reasons, wish to maintain the status quo and in addition, from what I have experienced, I unfortunately do not think there is a genuine commitment at the top of MSNZ to significantly change anything. I fear that the remits will be "controlled" at the Council meeting and it will be a "fight" to get progress. I know that by taking a stance on this matter there will be those who will turn it into personal attacks but I suppose it just goes with the territory.
Secondly, with the CODs, TACCOC no longer has a mandatory COD stance and hasn't had such a position for over a season. In my opinion, CODs are conceptually great but in practice they have resulted in inconsistency. There are cars that do not have CODs but should and there are cars with CODs that shouldn't have them. TACCOC has taken the position that CODs are preferred but not essential, however we vet entries and assess how each car complies with the applicable regulations - Schedule K, T&C etc. We understand that this does restrict some cars from entering our events but this is something we are prepared to accept as a result of sticking to our principles. New opportunities arise though - TACCOC are going to cater for Dale's Historic Muscle Cars as they are a group that appear to be run against positive period compliant rules.

[AMCO72]

Trevor Sheffield....PM sent. Sorry for the delay, I forget to check my PM's.

[jim short]

Now Dave after a sleepless night and in spite of myself here i go again,,I know i am sick of me as well .But when an old friend foe? states hes not with Bob Jamie "Rick ",dont know him but sounds a fine upstanding chap are Not wanted!!!,Well years ago I played 1st fifteen both yrs.at high school scored the final try at Dilworth in the rain this is rugby Dave,,then as time rolled on I felt the same,no I was still in the team but peeling the oranges for halftime just felt differant.But life can turn out quite strange at times, now this is not guesswork I have read several books on the subject.being of small build like Tazio, no a bit bigger than him,has meant I can fit into most cars,cant always reach the pedals but once moving am fine.Now I must not go back over the past,not my fault I didnt have a motorbike,At Manfield a few weeks back I was there with the boys ,I have mentioned this before,and over the past yrs. I have taken Carols advice Carol was that sexy sec. at Bay Park Look Jim you just sit in the corner and have the young ones make you cups of tea as you have had your day.And she is dead right you soon get sick of being told watch out dad or leave that alone,you dont understand these computers.But now and again someone actually remembers you .Man its great to catch up again!! and when they{sometimes more than one} are gone you ask who the hell was that,,a classic one this rather nice looking women approx 50///60 ws all over me remembered all the old times the parties the tricks we got up to and she was built to ride motorbikes very streemlined, she even comented how many times she was mistaken for some country singer,after agood ten minutes she took off looking over her shoulder and smiling "good to catch up again BOB!!!! so Dave in time you will have that car running on all the jets and the sun will be nice and warm