NZeder's Datsun 260z Build Thread

Right Steve suggested I start a build thread so here goes.

I have been a big Datsun Z fan for years, I have owned 7 over the last 20 years. I currently have 2 one is the first Datsun Z car I purchased when 21 years of age the other one is what this build thread is about (but if others want to see the road car/modified build I could also talk about that too)

Those that know me know that I don't spend a lot of time out in the shed working on my zeds :( no excuses really I need just pull finger and get them done.

I first got into racing a Datsun 240z after doing some club stuff with my road Datsun 260z (2 seater - same body shape as the 240z - most think of the 260z as the 2+2 but Nissan/Datsun did make them in 2 seater version also but they were produced in much smaller numbers that 240z so are actually a rarer car).

So I purchased a 1972 Datsun 240z that was already setup as track car - with a full cage (not strut to strut) but it was an Automatic - it was a good way to learn mind you as gear changes were few and far between and limited engine braking so you had to learn to brake with well the brakes alone.

Anyway fast forward a few years and a few other zed passed into and out of the garage I picked up a NZ New Jan 1974 Datsun 260z that was getting built up as a targa car.

This how it looked when I got it home.
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...0z/260z-10.jpg

The issues the car when purchased.
1. The cage was built in 2004/5 (purchase the car in 2011) and log book and homologation for the cage had not been applied for - however the cage builder had the details to get this sorted. I was very lucky that even though the rules had changed during this time the owner at the time insisted the main hoop be the large size has he thought he might take the car to Australia for a Targa event and CAMS required the larger hoop when NZ did not at the time.
2. Classic racing is what I want to do so a number of the mods done to the car needed to be undone to get to T&C compliant.
3. The cage was already painted and the cage builder could not find the photos he took back in 2004/5 as he had changed computers twice since then and one was forced after a crash - so the paint had to come off to get photos.
4. Some parts had gone missing during it time at the different shops (fabricator, panel/paint etc)

Right so some pictures of the car as it was in the fabricator shop (I knew of the car for years and knew the owner via info sharing of my zed car knowledge)
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...60z/260z-3.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...60z/260z-4.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...60z/260z-5.jpg

http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...60z/260z-6.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...60z/260z-7.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...60z/260z-8.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...60z/260z-9.jpg
another shot of it at home (well my parents place at the time of purchased, and still today it is at my retired parents house so Dad has something to do - ie do little jobs on the car to get it more together)
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...0z/260z-11.jpg

Some might notice the non standard engine between the struts - this car was fitted with a RB30DE hybrid engine made up from a Nissan/Holden RB30 bottom end and RB26 (GTR) cylinder head with the RB26 ITB setup - ECU was an Autronics unit. It was setup as NA with some amazing custom headers.

Brake were Wilwood front and rear and rims Genuine Minilites in 15x8 with 225/50/15

First task was to sort out what was there and what was not.

Missing
windows regulators
windscreen and windscreen bright work
stock engine/gearbox

The first task Dad I tackled was the missing windows regulators - now that was fun

Now as it is a early 260z the windows regulators are unique to the early 260z and none could be found on trademe, through member, Z Spares, or evilbay, alternatives need to be sort. I had some 240z regulators but it turns out the early 260z 2 seater doors might share the same window, lock/latch and window frame as the 240z the regulators are very different. The 260z items put the crank about 30mm further forward and the door does not have the stamped regulator protrusion like the 240z so they would not work. I also had some later 260z 2 seater/2+2 window regulators (the later 2 seaters use the same regulators as the 2+2). These mount to the glass via a different frame setup - however the scissor arms were the same size/location/arc. So the later 260z items were modified and new shower door rollers fitted on the ends replacing the later 260z mounting arms/tracks. Windows were finally sorted then 2 weeks later some early 260z regulators show up on trademe...bugger and they are still there too. Never mind door modified for later items now (new mounting holes drilled and one hole enlarged)

I will find a pic of the difference and post/update this post later.

http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...gulator001.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...gulator002.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...gulator001.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...gulator002.jpg

Next on the agenda was log book and cage homologation - so the paint was removed from the cage and photos taken, paper work completed by the cage builder and the application was send it.

About 2 weeks later all approved and good. So that was later 2011 - not a lot happened after that other than painting the cage again.

More to follow later on.

The bumpers that came with the car were Datsun 240z times which some might not know mount differently on the rear of the Datsun 260z. The front was easy as they are the same, that went on with ease. The rear....well another issue that had to be addressed. As luck would have it I already had some 260z rear bumper brackets for the road car so these could be copied and the 240z rear bumper fitted......wrong....turns out the 240z rear bumper might look like a 260z 2 seater rear bumper but where the brackets mounts in a slightly different location to the 260z 2 seater bumper so the replica mounts had to be modified again....

Now we had windows fitted and working with later regulators, bumpers fitted, rear window in, towing hooks painted red and installed, gutter trim/bright work fitted - it is now starting to look more like a zed should. Also got the door locks sorted. Word of advice make sure when you assemble the locks the correct length screws go in the correct location who ever partly assembled the car did not know of check this and the door would open and close fine just not lock as one of the screws was too long and stop the lock rod from moving correctly.

With the original power train that came with the car sold some good old L Gata needed to be sourced given I have sold my last L28 to Karl aka limezed and 2 before that to Earl Cruickshank for his Silver Datsun 240z. I did however get a L28 F54/N42 combo with the car. So the head is going to be used on rebuild later and the F54 was swapped for another N42 head.

As I am trying to be true to period correctness with the car I wanted to use N42/N42 head and block combo's as the N42 block was first available in 1975 unlike the F54 that did not come about until 1981-82.

Another Datsun Z club member was moving away from L28 power plants so a road trip was in order to collect 2 x N42/N42 long blocks, one from Hamilton the other from Rotorua. One of these engines will be dropped in to the car from the get go and I will run with that until I rebuild another engine ready for a swap over. I also managed to secure another N42 block/bottom end to go with the head I picked from the F54 swap.

So once again my garage/storage area went from 3 x L28 to 0 then back to 3 x L28 again.

Next was carbs - I needed some triples and a triple intake manifold as all my others that I had from years gone past (back in the 90's) had moved on to grace the engine bays of other zeds (either ones I owned, or other Datsun Z club member cars). More $$ was spend on importing a Cannon intake manifold and a set of triple Mikuni 44phh the correct carbs listed on the sports option catalogue for the S30Z.

Here are some images of the carbs - another update later. (click on these little images to see them larger)
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...mbs_carbs1.jpg http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...mbs_carbs2.jpg

Next installment brakes.

Wow, this thread is awesome! Thanks heaps, I'm really enjoying the pics and info.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Holmes

Wow, this thread is awesome! Thanks heaps, I'm really enjoying the pics and info.

---

Here, here. As an eternal Zed fan (and having had one many moons ago) I look forward to the ongoing story.Attachment 22853

Hopefully attached is a photo from a Japanese classic car show in Melbourne last weekend. Nice and clean.....

I had a set of those EFI Hardware ITB that I was going to install on my other Datsun 260z - they have since moved on (needed more $$ for this project) so now they are in the engine bay of a Targa Datsun 240z here in NZ - here is pic of them when I had them mounted up to my RB26 intake manifold via some custom adaptors made - these will now be used to run the road car on triple DCOE type carbs - well Mikuni 40phh as the road car does not need 44/45mm carbs.

Again click on the small image to see the larger image
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...6-adaptor5.jpg http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/ga...6-adaptor8.jpg

Right I said I was going to talk about the brakes next - well I will get there but first some history on the racing of the Nissan/Datsun S30 that I already knew or found more out about long the way.

This part of the project took me a bit of time - most of that was looking over the books, magazines, interweb and emailing contacts all around the world to learn even more about what was used in period (I knew a good amount already but you can never know too much)

I already new the FIA homologation number for the Datsun 240z so a copy of this was sort. I also acquired as many parts catalogues as I could. Given the Datsun Z cars racing history it was obvious Nissan/Datsun had racing in mind when this car was designed/released to the market.

I know this is build thread but some might be interested to know of some of models sold in the home market of Japan.

When Nissan decided to export cars to other international markets they did not want to damage the Nissan brand if the take up in the foreign markets was not as expected. So they turned to their earlier name of Datsun for the export brand.

So while the Datsun 240z was sold international internal Nissan was marketing the Fairlady Z (based on the same S30 chassis platform). However the Nissan engineers decided they would take the S20 engine and install this into the Fairlady Z also. The S20 engine was like a BDA to a Ford Escort. After the merger between Prince and Nissan, Nissan acquired the Skyline brand. Prince had a strong focus on racing and some might recall the S54B aka Prince/Nissan Skyline GTB that raced locally here in NZ in the late 60's by Carlos Neate. A bit of info for those interested is that Prince when they decided to extend the length of the 4 cylinder Skyline to install the new G7 OHC 6 cylinder and go racing they wanted to produce large number Skyline GT-B with triple weber DOCE 18 carbs, 5spd and LSD in a few months to get the paper work in to the FIA ASAP for the coming 1964 season. However weber could supply the number of carbs required so the maximum was order and 100 cars were manufactured for homologation purposes. A total of 500 GT-B were produced during the production and most of those were exported to Australia and New Zealand (I would really love one of these but today they are hens teeth - if you know of one for sale let me know) - so where was I that's right the S20 engine

The Prince engineers developed the S20 engine which was based on the GR8 DOHC that was used on the Prince R380 LeManns type sports car. These new S20 engines were installed in the new Skyline KPGC10 GT-R in 1969 (and the first car globally to carry the GT-R badge) and also the Nissan Fairlady Z432 and Z432-R. Again due to supply issue webers were used on the first few runs of the S20 engines but then Nissan started to source the locally made Mikuni/Solex carburetors.

Here are pics of the GR8 Prince 1996cc DOHC 6 cylinder engine
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ine_Museum.jpg

And here is a pic of the S20 engine 1988cc DOHC 4 valve 6 cylinder engine
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ngine_left.jpg

Here is an image of the engine bay of the factory produced Nissan Fairlady Z432
http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/a...e_bay_view.jpg

So the Prince Skyline Engineers were not happy that Nissan was installing their Skyline race engine into the S30 (chassis code for the Datsun 240z/260z/280z and Fairlady Z range of cars) as it was soon to compete against their GT-R on the track in the coming 1970 season. You see the Skyline GT-R was heading towards a track record that has not yet been matched by any marque/make in Japan. This record has made the first Skyline GT-R a legend in Japan (I would really love one of these but I don't have spare 150K to 200K to purchase one) 50 wins from 50 start.

Approximately 480 of the Z432 were build including a smaller number of Z432-R. The Z432-R were again a JDM model only and were sold to the general public - aimed at races teams. The Z432-R (internal code name PS30-SB - all Z432 had the chassis code PS30, Datsun 240z were HS30, 260z RS30 and the Fairlady Z was just a S30 - there is more to that but this is not the place) were built and sold as the homologation special with FRP bonnet, lexan windows, no heater, no clock, cut down loom and other parts Nissan wanted to homologate.

While these S20 power cars were racing around the track in Japan the like of Pete Brock (not the Ozzie but the American of Daytona Cobra fame) was heading up the BRE team and push the other marques around the tracks of America with the L24 power export S30 aka Datsun 240z. With BRE providing feedback to Japan and Japan starting to support the L Gata (L6 or L Gata = L20a, L24, L26, L28) engine in racing and rallying, Nissan start to see the potential of the non cross flow OHC 6 cylinder engine and soon the Prince engineers were left to focus on their S20 power Skylines while the Nissan team moved focus to the L Gata (I believe there was a bit of internal politics and competition between the recent merged companies)

In the UK an ex broadspeed cylinder head guy Spyke Anderson was busy building and racing an ex works Rally Datsun 240z. His company modifying Datsun Z cars was called SAMURI (the correct spelling was already a registered trademark) His own race car was nick named SAM - however after a big crash the car was reshelled and renamed BIG SAM. BIG SAM still exists today with a number of the ex-works parts still on the car. BIG SAM was raced by very young and then unknown Win Percy after he paid £50 a race to drive it in the 1974 BARC Modified Sportscar Championship they went out and won the three-litre class, beating Porsches and TVRs on the way. I discovered that BIG SAM was fitted with CAN-AM brakes during this era of racing.

Anyway here are some pics of BIG SAM - as it was in the 70s and as it is today
http://www.racing70s.pwp.blueyonder....rt/zed2sam.jpg
http://www.loxlee-loves-engines.com/...ar-519x345.jpg

also here are some other pics of the Datsun 240z/260z/280z racing in period spec (a number are in FIA GTS Group 4 spec aka how they entered Le Mans) - all these are genuine cars from the period as build in period
http://zhome.com/History/LeMansZ/1975LeMans240Z.jpg
http://zhome.com/History/LeMansZ/1976Number73.jpg
http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-conte...epa_240z-3.jpg
http://stephenedelstein.files.wordpr...pg?w=620&h=465

So brakes - I said I was going to talk about brakes.....ok next post this time :)

During my research I found that Nissan had 4 pot calipers approved/homologated both front and rear with vented rotors front and rear. They also had approved/homologated solid rotors on the rear, drums on the rear, solid rotors on the front. It appeared that all combinations of these was used in period depending on the class or teams or budgets.

Nissan had 4 different brake packages available to customers in the USA - here are number of combinations used in period
1. The standard 2 pot Sumitomo calipers on non vented rotors up front and finned drums in the rear
2. 4 pot Sumitomo calipers up front in either vented or non vented setup, sliding caliper with solid rotor on the rear
3. 4 pot Sumitomo calipers up front and in the rear with vented rotors front and vented or solid rotors rear.
4. Lockheed 4 pots on vented rotors up front and Lockheed 2 pots on the rear with vented rotors
5. AirHeart/Hurst 4pots on vented rotors up front and AirHeart/Hurst 2 pots on the rear with vented rotors.

The 4 pots sumitomo calipers were listed on the sports option list which could be ordered with the car or after the car from the dealer network world wide - along with the LY cross flow head, triple mikuni carbs, extractors, larger/wider rims, race seat, LSD diffs, close ratio gear sets, suspension upgrades for circuit or rally, rally lights, electronic ignition, CDI ignition, rally clocks, bolt in cage, steering wheel, engine internal upgrades the list was very extensive. All these parts OEM from the factory.

Research showed 15" were used in period - this was determined via the brake rotor sizes that were offered. Given T&C rules allows for 1" over the factory spec rim which was 14" 15" rims is what the car was going to run and as luck had it the car was already fitted with 15x8" rims

The car was fitted with 12.2" Wilwood rotors and 4pot Wilwood calipers up front and 12.2" solid Wilwoods with 4 pots Wilwoods on the rear- these could have stayed on the car and would have saved me some $$ and time - but I decided to change them for a number of reasons.

I will now explain the reasons for the change.

1. The front setup required the use of small 4-5mm spacer for the rims to clear the calipers
2. The rears needed some locating rings to ID the rotors on to the zed axles correctly
3. The rears were using a modified Ford 9" drum in hat setup for the hand brake and it was very very cramped for space - so much so that rear of the wheel studs had been taken to with a grinder to clear the shoes.

None of this I liked - sure all was ok and within safe engineering tolerances - however I did not like the idea.

So at the time I had not yet sold the RB30DE engine - it was still sitting between the struts. So I thought if I have a modern engine why not run more modern Wilwood Radial mounted calipers. So that is what I did. I purchased some radial mounted Wilwood calipers for the front and the rear, some new 11.75" rotors that would give me a little more rim clearance (the 12.2" did fit but no wheel weights could go inside the rims infact the tape informing one of that was rubbing on the caliper - too tight for my liking) Also all my research showed 11.75 was the size that was used in period.

So a lot more time saving $$ and ordering parts from the USA as the calipers I required were a non stocked item here in NZ. I ordered the rotors and hats at the same time.

I think had a local fabricator assist with the mounting brackets and machining of the hats to ID onto the hubs up front and axles on the rear.

They looked great - clearance was no longer an issue and no drum in hat on the rear - a hydraulic handbrake is going to be used.

It was at this point that I decided that the grid I was going to run in, as they would allow such a hybrid of modern and oldschool parts, was not for me - the driving standard was not ideal and having a car that would cost me over 20K to reshell when it got hit by one of these modern Japanese (classic - yeah right) Honda Civic or Toyota Collora's.

So with the help of some friends Ray was kind enough to let me sign up for his grid (even though I still don't have running car - I will still be attending as pit bitch for others still :( ) however this meant I needed to make some changes - remove the RB30 - easy it was not too far down the track with the fuel system still original and not EFI ready and sell of the Radial Mounted Wilwoods and start on the brakes again. So that is the path I took and why I have decided to ensure the car is T&C compliant 100%.

Right engine was sold to another Datsun Z Club member and the new brakes (never had fluid in them) were again sold to another Datsun Z Club member - they are now on one of my old 240z so they went to a good home ;)

During all this Wilwood brake change I also arranged a group buy for a number of Datsun Z club members of some special order 15x8 rims with a more + offset from the default 0 that suit the standard body work of the Datsun Z cars. 15x8 with a 0 offset do fit but some rolling of the rear lip/arch is required - no flare is required just a roll of the lip to ensure no rubbing. However a 15x8 +10 offset works without this rolling if using a 225/50/15.

So 10 sets of rims were order with me only have to commit to selling 6 sets and the importer was happy to sell the remaining 4 sets. I managed to pre sell 7 sets and another set was sold not long after they arrived in the country - I believe all of these have now been sold.

These rims are replicas of the sports options rims and are minilite style - I am sure if you have seen Ricky Datsun 240z at the track then you have seen the rims I arranged. But here are some pics anyway
Attachment 22861
Attachment 22862

Here are some pics of the Radial mounted Wilwood that are not on my old 240z that lives in Wellington now
Attachment 22863
Attachment 22864
Attachment 22865
Attachment 22866

So now the path for the car was set - T&C, original L Gata engine, running correct sport option Mikuni triple 44phh carbs now I had to revisit the brakes....again.....this time I tried to source 100% period calipers.

I wanted a caliper that was available in period - no exception or a new caliper that was cast using the original period foundry. All my research lead to just two suppliers that could produce new stock. AP Racing that reproduce the Historic range of calipers which were the same spec/design as those offered by Datsun Competition USA on their options list. However at $1500 a caliper per corner they were out of my budget. I thought I managed to track down a set second hand in the UK and I was planning to collect and pay for them when I was in Europe on business at the beginning of this year - but that was not to be never heard from him once my travel plans were set.

I decided Wilwoods were off the table for the following reasons.

1. The current Superlites are made from new foundries and including newer technologies that make them stiffer than the early Superlite II calipers that were available from 1977/78 onwards once Wilwood came to be. I believe these original superlite II foundries were acquired by Wilwood from another company that was around pre 77/78 so that makes that style period correct.

2. I could not find anywhere that Wilwood still supply these calipers from the original foundries.

3. I am lead to believe that Wilwood GN III are still the same design as pre 77/78/pre Wilwood brand however 6 pots were never fitted to the Datsun Z cars so they were off the table also.

AirHeart/Hurst were off the table also as their calipers today are completely different design and again made using modern foundries/forging techniques

So with AP Racing Historic range out of my budget and Wilwood out due to foundry changes like the AirHeart/Hurst that lead me to the old JFZ calipers which I know were fitted to all manner of cars in the early 70's. I knew JFZ sold to another company in the 90's but I could not recall who it was.

So after a few google searches I found the answer I was looking for - JFZ was purchased by Sierra Racing Products. A few emails and a phone call to the owner of Sierra Racing products confirmed he still had the original foundries for the original JFZ mini GN (mini Grand National) and XL Series. The only difference was when he purchased the JFZ business it did not include the branding rights so he had to alter the branding on the castings. But I found what I was after - a period caliper that was originally manufactured pre 1975 to match the period the car is to now represent 1975 as I will install a L28 which was not homologated or sold to the general public until 1975 (however Nissan did sell a piston kit for the L26 engines from mid 73 to make them into L28)

The good thing is these calipers were in my budget. Here are some pics of what will be going on the car as they are 100% period correct having been cast from the original foundry.Attachment 22867Attachment 22868Attachment 22869

Great thread Nzeder.

Thanks Shano.

So now I had the calipers and I knew the fronts XL Series had the correct mount ear spacing as the 240z/260z struts 3.5" (88.9mm). For those that are interested the Sierra Racing Products XL Series share the same dimensions as the Old Superlite II calipers which I also believe is the same as the Bremtek Racing Calipers that were used on Porsches and other cars in the early 70's.

If you look at pictures of all 3 of the brand of calipers you can see how they are basically all the same design sharing the same piston sizing, pads and mounting spacing - so who copied who? I know Bremtek Racing and JFZ were around in the early 70's if not before and Wilwood was formed in mid 1978 going by their history on their web site.

Here are some pictures for comparison
Bremtek
Attachment 22872
Wilwood Suerlite II
Attachment 22873
JFZ XL Series + JFZ mini GN single
Attachment 22874

You can see how the Sierra XL Series is the same as the JFZ just branding is different.

Calling Howard Wood or anyone else who has a Schedule K Sports/GT/Saloon car.

Given all the work I have done to find out what was used in period and I have a number of supporting documents - FIA papers, Sport Option Catalogs, articles etc should I look at applying for Schedule K on my COD for this car?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nzeder

Calling Howard Wood or anyone else who has a Schedule K Sports/GT/Saloon car.

Given all the work I have done to find out what was used in period and I have a number of supporting documents - FIA papers, Sport Option Catalogs, articles etc should I look at applying for Schedule K on my COD for this car?

---

Absolutely and in my experience it is not too difficult, easy in fact. As discussed, I can only advise on my experience with the '02. I built the car following to the letter a build sheet I drew up after obtaining Homologation papers, the FIA Group 2 regulations for 1973 (because you need to nominate the actual period/year the car represents), some info gathered on the net (Frank de Jong's "Touring Car History" http://touringcarracing.net was a good starting point) and the current sched K regulations (because there are some catch-alls in there not necessarily covered by the other documents).

When the car was ready for its paperwork I simply filled in the MSNZ form which basically outlined the modifications with supporting evidence from either of the above sources together with photos. MSNZ emailed me back over a few weeks with a couple of questions, I assume from their Historic Committee. With the application I included a quick (2 pages) overview of the race history of the model, the Homologation history (because in 1973 Ford and BMW were engaged in a furious homologation war between the works BDA Escorts and Alpina's 2002Tii to win the European Touring Car 2 litre class) and anything else I thought relevant.

Within a few weeks the application came back, honestly as simple as that. Frankly I found the roll cage certification process to be much harder, partly because the rules changed mid build and because a certain well known race preparer and MSNZ technical officer's advice turned out to be totally incorrect.

Rather than get involved in more detail here, I am happy to show you copies of my application and supporting documents.

Perfect reply Howard - I have downloaded the correct FIA papers for the period in question in my case the 1975 FIA Appendix J regs for Group 3 & 4 much like your Group 1 & 2 options - in fact Group 4 references the Group 2 regs for all its allowable modifications just the fact it is for 2 seater, 2 door cars not 4 seater (be it two or four doors) aka Grand Touring Cars (Group 3 and 4) is Touring Car (Group 1 and 2).

I have all the info I need and I think I will apply for Schedule K - are you running this weekend? Anybody know how I see the entries list - I have signed on to the motorsportentry.com website and there is a section for entries but nothing shows up - I guess you have to register for the event - bit hard when your car is still in bits :(

Regards
Mike Lucas

I have an entry list Mike. Will try and email it to you tomorrow.

Just a little bit more work done on the car in the last few days.

1. Tidy up of the loom has started. I started on the rear of the loom, removing the factory wires for speakers, electric aerial, and rear window demister. The rear screen the car has does not have the rear demister - this was an option on the early cars, becoming standard later on in the zeds - so no point in them staying I will not be fitting a different rear screen or a radio again.

2. Installed the front brakes - and found an issue with the rears need to modify the rear caliper brackets as the offset is about 1mm out causing the calipers not to fit - this will be sorted in due cause and one of the issue one comes across when replicating period setups when 40+ years has passed by and brake kits that are available now are for later/larger Wilwood setups that were not used in period on the car in question.

I did get a bit of Xmas press for my self too - just before Christmas I was surfing the internet for more info on period setups and other info I could purchase to help me better understand all the parts that were available to races back in the day, anyway I found a copy of the 1974 Datsun Competition Parts Catalog for sale in the USA. I could not get my credit card number out fast enough to order that bad boy. It arrived yesterday and I am very please with my $50USD purchase, it came in the original franked envelop dated 9th April 1975 from "Nissan Motor Corporatation in USA" - and looks like new.

Hopefully not a dumb question - what class are you intending racing this great car in Mike ?

No problem I have been supporting Ray and the ERC series for a while. First as pit b...h for Ricky and his Datsun 240z and on on occasion a mk1 Escort for over 10 years now. I have been a financial member of the ERC group for a while now so that is the group I intend to run with. The driving standard and the group are just a great bunch of characters. Also the fact most of the cars are from the same period ie the same make/models the Datsun 240z/260z raced against on circuits all around the world or on rallies at the top level of the sport.

When I first got this car with its modern Skyline DOHC EFI, later Wilwood brake setup it would have been much quicker to complete the project as it was and run in the All All Japanese class (don't think the word classic applies to this bunch of Honda's. If the grid had more Datsun 1600, 1200, 160j SSS, 240z/260z, Skyline C10 (first model car in the world to have the GTR badge with the 2000cc DOHC 4valve engine), Prince GTB (s54), Toyota Sprinter/Levins TE27, Mazda RX2 and RX3 ie all the Japanese models that have racing history in the 70's on the world stage of circuit and rallies then classic can be used but a $4000 or less Honda Civic is not a classic car in my eyes (given finding a good 240z today will cost you 2 x MGB GTs.)) Then the driving standard of these Honda's etc was not at what I would call ideal. I guess that comes down to cost...if the cost of a replacement shell is only $2000-3000 or less then you might have a different take on the cost of fixing a car. Having purchased a number (and maybe the last bunch of NOS) geniune panels for my road zed I can say a bonnet and front guards are the cost of one of these entire cars plus some and that does not include bumper or more to the point many of the NLA parts that go with a car that is over 40 yeard old.

Have to agree with you Mike. I felt more comfortable in the wet with Ray's ERC guys than i did in the dry with "classic" jap.

Great bunch of guys to chat with as well.

So long time no post or work on the car :( kids little time vampires

Anyway it is now decision time - front spoilers. The zed cars had 4 options in period depending on market and customer requests. Well there were other options like the ZG nose and the 3 different type of fender flares from factory ZG fender flares, type A works fender flares and the super large works type B fender flares (like those used on the Le Mans enter zeds)

Option 1 = no front spoiler
Option 2 = UK, EU and NZ factory/dealer delivered/option Urethane front spoiler (super rare and most are damaged)
Option 3 = USA/CANADA factory/dealer delivered/option non ducted front spoiler
Option 4 = USA/CANADA factory/dealer delivered/option ducted front spoiler

As I have decided to go Schedule K with my application once the car is complete - then all of the above options are open to me. If I go T&C then no front spoiler is allowed (however I see many cars in that claim to be T&C compliant have front spoilers including HMC) this is from 3.2 (1) which stated only rear wings that were available in period can be fitted.

Under T&C must be of the original materials etc - the factory fitted Urethane front spoilers have an issue that their mounting brackets tend to rust off/out of the Urethane. I have managed to locate one of these spoilers but like most it has seen better days now they are some 40+ years old. I see CAMS in AU due to this reason they allow replica version of these to installed as does the FIA - so I assume MSNZ/HRC too will allow Fiber Glass replica. I have seen FIA HTP 240z for sale with option 4 fitted.

As I am 99% sure I will go down the Schedule K path so that means any period spoiler can be used so what say you??

Sample Image time.
First up the Urethane item - my old 240z NZ new
Attachment 24533
UK Press picture from back in the day
Attachment 24531
Datsun 260z in a museum in Germany
Attachment 24532

Now the non ducted USA/CANADA option
Attachment 24528

And now the ducted USA/CANADA option (as used by BRE race car and others)
Attachment 24529
Period race team pic as completed in an event - notice no bumpers fitted, usually only the front bumper was fitted during transportation and photos pre event.
Attachment 24530

Another pic of the ducted front on a racecar with ZG over fenders fitted.
Attachment 24534

So what are the general con censors on this forum? I am leaning towards the ducted as that is what most race teams in the USA used + that allows me to run ducts to the brakes which aid in cooling period brakes which I will be running. Who is with me Option 4 (there are 2 version of this option the ones posted and later version for the USA Spec 280z which is more curved)

Reason I have posted these options up as I have one of each of these spoilers. I have not included other IMSA type or the number of ZG types that were used in period as there are just so many different looks - even the Macau 240z that had a very odd custom front end used back in the day.

Great info Nzder, much discussion on the weekend over Ricky Coopers 240Z front area and bumper/spoiler, etc as i don't believe it to be to T&C which seems to be as you say above? infact not just his spoiler but the whole front of his Z? Ricky says its period but that doesn't count under T&C or K?

You are correct in that HMC front spoilers don't have to be T&C although my Mustang still is and will remain so, we have added our own front spoiler rule over and above T&C to give the cars that historic Trans Am look as seen on the new Roger Williams 69 Camaro that raced on the weekend, but our spoiler rules are quite detailed and in-fact we stole them direct from the 1970 Trans Am rule book so still "era" compliant which is important!! Also, all HMC front spoilers are an addition and we don't allow for the remove of any other front sheet metal so these items must remain to also comply with T&C.

PS: I wish more would do there homework before they build a MSNZ compliant historic race car as you have done

Dale M

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kiwiboss

In fact not just his spoiler but the whole front of his Z? Ricky says its period but that doesn't count under T&C or K?

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Did I just read that even if it is period, it doesn't count for T & C?

Had a chat today with Tony and the question of originality cropped up.

The conundrum is this. If you have a rare car where replacement body panels are impossible to source, is it better to fit replacement fibreglass panels and store the decent originals under the bench, thus incurring the wrath of the purists, who seem happy to criticise, but don't ever have to risk destroying their own pride and joy, or, do you accept that you are better off not racing at all and depriving the public of seeing what may be an iconic car?

At times it is a tougher call than some realise. Cars that may have been fairly common in their day are now remarkably scarce, so risking them on a race track isn't as easy as it was in period.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the front of Ricky's car (and don't forget he was the innocent victim of a race mishap that damaged several panels, when it was still the original colour) as to me, it now looks totally period and is a credit to him. As has been pointed out before, I can't see him getting a race advantage out of it.

Sorry Mike for butting in, but I really admire your total dedication to purity and anyone else that puts that amount of effort into a build.

For many competitors, bearing in mind there is an element of risk attached, they see it as an expensive, time consuming gamble when all they want to do is race the car, not build it. Others like yourself may enjoy the research and build process rather more than the racing.

With more pure cars out there, it will certainly strengthen that sector of the sport.

With regards to Ricky's car is that only issue as you see it?
I have been a zed owner for a long time, not as long as Ricky who was driving/racing/playing with cars while I was still at school - primary school I bet too, but in the 21 years I have been a zed owner I have studied the marque a fair bit, I have collected a lot of info/catalogs/books and recently some period info to assist with my application for Schedule K

Ricky's wheels 15" and in the factory sport option style = check (I arrange the custom group buy in the correct offset)
Ricky's rear spoiler = check (there were 3 variations over the years from 1970-1978)
Ricky's engine L28 = check (engine available/FIA homologated in 1975)
Ricky's triple mikuni carb = check (sport option Mikuni's however some also used Webers or Dellortos in period too)
Ricky's gearbox = check (standard Nissan spec, close ratio option)
Ricky's diff = check (standard 260z/280z spec with FIA approved ratios/LSD)
Ricky's brake = check (all 4pot alloy bolt together calipers on 2 piece rotors as in period)

All other parts on Ricky's car is correct for the period of the car - and yes the front is not 70's period correct it is a common mid 80's type that first appeared in Australia I believe.

Now here is 1970's image (period correct spec) of a IMSA GTU spec'ed zed car (could be 240z/260z or 280z) this has the full GTU body kit that was and is still available today.
Attachment 24535

How is Ricky's front any different to this? Ok not based on the ZG longer nose like on the Red 240z that Earl Cruickshank races. The ZG as it is known has the longer front (all FRP from factory) and over fenders - these Fairlady 240Z (G-Nose) as they were marketed in Japan) were built to homologate the longer nose cone and over fenders.

Here is a pic of stock ZG
Attachment 24536

My other zed has a factory ZG kits (of the factory 5 pieces I have 4 with a custom made lower our of steel, I live on a gravel road = FRP would be gone in no time) The factory light covers for both the stock nose and the ZG nose are moon beams now days - I sold one set of NOS ZG light cover to help purchase the race car that is how much they go for $1000 USD a set. The remaining 4 factory parts to the ZG kit I have are NLA. There is a place in Japan that makes the best replica parts but they will cost you $6000 NZD. So most ZG you see are one piece replicas as pointed out by Ray - too much of a risk to even think about going near a track.

I got a NOS bonnet our of Japan for my road 260z but Nissan said that was it - no more so I must have gotten one of the last bonnets out of Japan. When I got my ZG light covers NOS out of Japan I was told there were only 5 sets left from that supplier so I purchased 2 sets (only have one set now for the road car but did double my investment on the sale)

My road 260z has replica type A over fenders - but I did not like bolt on look - so had custom steel ones rolled up and installed.

Here is pic of the other zed - still a work in progress too (17 years so far - keep purchasing other zed and motorbikes to shift my focus from this car + keep having kids, I know the problem not spending enough time in the sheds working on the car so 4 kids I need two more cars so I can leave them one each)
Attachment 24537
That is a very old pic - test fitting the rims with no springs in to check flare clearances before painting - still a shell in my shed at home (sold the Red 240z above to build the shed to house this car)

This is a great thread Mike and valuable for anyone building a Zed. Keep it going.

Yes Nzeder, great job you’re doing and very informative and I admit my knowledge of 240’s is very limited hence great to have you on here!!

Personally I have no issue’s racing with Rickys Z and would race side by side with him any day of the week, he is one of the cleanest and smoothest drivers I know, but I keep getting question "only" about his frontal panel/spoiler work and no rear bumpers but I don’t know the answer, when I read T&C as attached below I get it as “original materials as per STANDARD SERIES PRODUCTION VEHICLE” and then this gets over ridden with “Period modifications are permissible”

3:2 Exterior The vehicle shall be smartly maintained and have all exterior trim in place. It must retain bumpers if originally fitted. All panels,bumpers, mouldings, spoilers etc. must be made of the original materials as per the STANDARD series Production vehicle. eg; steel panels must be retained if originally fitted. Period modifications are permissible.
(1) Only rear wings (aerofoil) which were available for the car in period may be fitted. These must be
made of materials from that period. ie; no Kevlar.
(2) Any/all modifications must be in period (refer definitions).

But when I read what “Period” means it states when “first used actively in Motorsport Competition in New Zealand, or a minimum of three(3) separate overseas examples” so with that being the case does Rickys Z fit these descriptions hence making it correct as it currently sits? your help and thoughts appreciated Nzeder!!

“Period” means the era (years) during which a vehicle model and/or its components were first used actively in Motorsport Competition in New Zealand, or a minimum of three(3) separate overseas examples, and

Dale M

Hi Dale, now that is interesting. You see I have never taken the rules as you have pointed out. I will quote your post from above.

Quote:

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"original materials as per STANDARD SERIES PRODUCTION VEHICLE” and then this gets over ridden with “Period modifications are permissible”

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I have never read the rules that way. I read it as "stand series production vehicle" without the other over the top of that. This is how I come to the conclusion that an escort with bubble arches (forest flare) or an ISMA 240z (pic off car #33 above, that car in question is a good story) is not T&C as they don't have standard series production body work. The should however fit schedule k if all other components fit schedule k ie escorts with arches must run 13" rims as that is all that was used in period with the flares.

Now to answer your point about NZ racing. The 240z did not start running here in NZ until after the Datsun Z Club formed in 1981 and it took a few years to the marque accepted by others so 240z started to actively race at taccoc, datsun z club, lotus club and other until mid 80's so for NZ racing period correct.

If Ricky's car is to represent the period "era" of one of the international zeds then sure ideally the front should change. I guess after Ricky's car was damaged (only panel not bent was the roof) then he could have imported an isma body kit like the car above thus giving him 14" more width in the rear 7" a side, running 15x15 rims or 15x12 for wets and have hugh grip and therefore be faster than he is now but still be 100% 1975 period correct.

I have thought about building an isma 240z after all they won the 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1979 GTU driver championships and manufacturers championship in 1975, 1976 and 1979.

Dale, what you have pointed out its basically one of the issues we have always had regarding T & C rules. There are anomalies and the wording in the rules and MSNZ manual have always had these problems.

Way back, the book said "cylinder block and head material MUST be standard" (my emphasis).

A page or two later - "period modifications are allowed". So fitting an alloy cross-flow head to a Mini or an MGB is not allowed on one page and allowed on another.

These issues have been around for at least the 18 years I have been involved in the series.

"A minimum of 3 overseas examples" of something also means that you can't build a Marina V8 for example, if the factory only produced one.

Good point Ray and then the definition of

Quote:

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“Standard” means a vehicle identifiable as belonging to a production series, with a minimum
model run of 100 identical units, distinguishable by external general lines of the bodywork and
identical mechanical construction of the engine, transmission and suspension to the wheels

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It all gets a bit messed up when you see statements like "Standard" then "Period modifications are permissible" so which is it? Does the body work have to be standard or period modified or both? If this is the case forest flares were a period mod as is an IMSA body kit on a 240z or wide body Porsches, MGB etc.

So under T&C I was under the impression I would have "Standard" body work and for a NZ new car like my 260z that includes the front Urethane chin spoiler and the rear spoiler like Ricky has. I could not change the front spoiler for any other type as that is clearly stated as 3.2(1) only rears can be changed for other period rear spoilers.

However with the way Dale has pointed out after the statement about standard series production vehicle there is the "Period modifications are permissible." so a period modification was to remove the bumper which part of that whole line trumps the other?

I thought I had these rules down....now I am not sure...no wonder people say to hell with it all let just race and forget these COD, rules for this and that. When the rules themselves say you can't do X in the first part then say X is allowed later WTF

This is where we need a "tech-line" direct to MSNZ so anyone can phone(or E-mail) for a definition!!

Dale M

The 100 examples rule is equally flawed, given that the of various full sized Marcos models prior to the 1980's reincarnation, out of 13 major (production) variants, only 4 exceeded 100 units and 7 had less than 50 (plus two or three well known prototypes that I haven't even counted). Are they still classics? Of course they are. The ex-Jackie Stewart "Ugly Duckling" was one of just 9 built, but it was later raced successfully by Jem Marsh in UK Historic events.

Even when the models where numbers were higher, it is doubtful that 100 were ever identical, given the various options on offer.

Most were never homologated in period anyway making Schedule K a bit of a mission. I investigated it briefly at one stage and decided that there was no point whatever given that I can race the car anyway.

Fair call Dale, but I think most classic/historic people would prefer it went via a panel of people with sufficient knowledge and interest who at least understand why. Putting the option of a definition or ruling to one person is back into small black moustache territory!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nzeder

Another pic of the ducted front on a racecar with ZG over fenders fitted.
Attachment 24534

So what are the general con censors on this forum? I am leaning towards the ducted as that is what most race teams in the USA used + that allows me to run ducts to the brakes which aid in cooling period brakes which I will be running. Who is with me Option 4 (there are 2 version of this option the ones posted and later version for the USA Spec 280z which is more curved)

Reason I have posted these options up as I have one of each of these spoilers. I have not included other IMSA type or the number of ZG types that were used in period as there are just so many different looks - even the Macau 240z that had a very odd custom front end used back in the day.

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Brilliant thread Mike, I'm really enjoying this.

This would be my choice for the front spoiler. Its period correct, as you say, and looks fantastic on the Z. One of the nicest aspects of these cars, in my opinion, is the nose, and this spoiler compliments the nose really well, and doesn't detract from all the nice shapes and curves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nzeder

Hi Dale, now that is interesting. You see I have never taken the rules as you have pointed out. I will quote your post from above.


I have never read the rules that way. I read it as "stand series production vehicle" without the other over the top of that. This is how I come to the conclusion that an escort with bubble arches (forest flare) or an ISMA 240z (pic off car #33 above, that car in question is a good story) is not T&C as they don't have standard series production body work. The should however fit schedule k if all other components fit schedule k ie escorts with arches must run 13" rims as that is all that was used in period with the flares.

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My understanding is as you've written here Mike. Using the Escort as an example, you can either fit larger diameter wheels as per T&C, but you can't fit the forest flares. But under Schedule K, you can fit the flares, but you must then run original diameter wheels, as raced on in period. I view Schedule K as being similar to FIA Appendix K, in that what you're essentially building is a car that is a mechanical and aesthetic replica of a car as it raced in period.

A common sight in NZ classic racing, is when people mix and match T&C with Schedule K: eg (using the Escort again) they'll fit the forest flares as allowed under Schedule K (but not T&C), but then also go up a size in wheel diameter, as allowed under T&C (but not Schedule K).

But that just my interpretation of the rules, and it seems I'm just as confused as everyone else.