From 1968, the maximum wheel width allowed was 8 inches.
When Terry Allen brought his Camaro with 396 rat motor to Bay Park in 1970, his wheels were 12 inch front and back.
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From 1968, the maximum wheel width allowed was 8 inches.
When Terry Allen brought his Camaro with 396 rat motor to Bay Park in 1970, his wheels were 12 inch front and back.
Steve, I can only quote direct from Motorman magazine that covered this event.May 1970 page 12
Allans iridescent blue Camaro sitting on Minilites and 12 inch Goodyears all around, disc brakes on all four wheels and a 390 cu in "rat" Chevvy engine on 58mm side draught Webers..........
Yes I have that issue too. I assume they were referring to the width of the Goodyears, which bulge out quite a bit from the rims.
Attachment 44198
I am quite happy to accept that I didnt check the article to see if the wheels were 12 inch.
Serious bulge though-2 inches.
Car suspension is set high, so clearance was OK
doesnt look like anyone now could do it in HMC-
3.13 Tyres: Only tyres for legal road use in New Zealand may be used. (ie.
approved road tyres having 1.5 mm minimum tread depth across 75% of the
width of the tyre and around the entire circumference at the tyre, Drag Race DOT
Tyres not allowed, nor is the practice of skimming the tyres. Aspect ratio is
restricted to 50% minimum. Non DOT Goodyear Blue Streak 15” G7 Period
Vintage Race Tyres, along with 15” Hoosier TD’s and HOTD’s are allowed. Non
DOT Period 15” Vintage Race Tyres in Goodyear Blue Streak G7 up to 6.00X15
Front and 7.00X15 Rear, along with Hoosier 15” HOTD’s up to 25.5X8.5 Front
and 26.5X9.5 Rear and TD’s up to P225/60D15 Front and P245/60D15 Rear are
allowed.
Looks like I am not the only one not watching the Test rugby.....
I think the HMC tyre size rule is the same as they use in Historic Trans-Am. Historic Trans-Am caters to the original cars that raced during the 1966 - 1972 era, but obviously the earlier cars originally wore much narrower tyres than those in the later years. The HTA rule is set at a sort of middle-ground so the earlier cars aren't so disadvantaged, as they couldn't fit the much fatter rubber.
The theory in period was that although there was a maximum 8 inch wheel width rule, there was no rule on tyre width, so the wider the tyre, the more rubber making contact with the road, the more grip the car had.
I'd guess that the Historic Trans-Am tyre size falls at around the size of the tyres being used in the 1968 season. By 1969, the tyres had really got fat, and bulged way out from the rim. The below photos are a good example of the differences between what was being used on the Penske Camaros in 1969, and the same car as raced in Historic Trans-Am. You can see how much less bulge there is in the tyre wall on the car as it races today.
Attachment 44211
Attachment 44212
Wheels and Tyres continued:
American Racing wheels were made from magnesium, and were extremely light. The company eventually began producing them in aluminium, for people to fit to their road cars, but most of the racers used the magnesium examples.
Attachment 44213
American Racing 5-spoke wheels continued their popularity in 1967, and 1968, despite there being increased competition from other brands. Throughout both 1967 and 1968, virtually every team used American Racing Torq Thrust 5-spoke wheels.
For 1969, American Racing released their new 200-S wheel design, commonly referred to as the ‘daisy’ wheel because of the shape of its five spokes. The alloy version of the 200-S is shown above. Once again, most of the factory teams opted for this wheel, simply because it was the latest and greatest from American Racing. However, the 200-S suffered some early failures, and while American Racing quickly got to work upgrading it to a more durable 6-spoke design, by this stage many teams had switched to the new 8-spoke magnesium Minilite wheel, which remained the most popular choice for years to come.
I found this image on a model car site showing the Torq Thrust (right) and Minilite wheels, and the design differences.
Attachment 44214
The Minilite wheel is hard to beat for pure sex-appeal, but in the Trans-Am series, a 1967/68 model car, such as mine, wouldn’t have worn Minilites when it was new, because the Minilite hadn’t yet made its entrance into the series. It only arrived in 1969. So while pre-1969 cars may have raced during the 1969 and later seasons fitted with Minilites, these were by now outdated cars. Below is the Penske Camaro raced by Mark Donohue from the Continental Divide round of the 1968 Trans-Am series. When new, this car was fitted with American Racing Torq Thrust wheels.
Attachment 44215
At the end of the 1968 season, this car was sold, and the team built two new 1969 Camaros. But Penske bought this car back in 1969, when they became paranoid rival Ford teams may sacrifice one of their cars to eliminate Donohue, who was running away with the championship. Once back in the Penske fold, the year-old Camaro was updated with new engine, and fitted with 8-spoke Minilite wheels, as the team were now using on their latest 1969 Camaros. The Camaro spent the rest of its active career fitted with Minilites, as seen in the below mid-1970s photo when owned by Bruce Belcher, but when it was eventually purchased and restored back to its 1968 guise by Tom McIntyre, it was also refitted once more with 5-spoke Torq Thrust wheels.
Attachment 44216
What a find with the 3 magnesium American Racing rims. They will look very cool
Steve,
With all the rules and regulations perhaps you could get the "All Comers " class going where anything goes and you see cars like this;
Attachment 44256
or this.
Attachment 44257
Attachment 44258
All the best, you are doing a fabulous job in so many areas.
We are proud of you.
Sincerely,
Ken
Hi Ken, many thanks, I really appreciate that. I I appreciate the support you and others have provided me.
I'm already involved in a group in NZ called Historic Muscle Cars and Historic Saloon Cars. Interestingly, the reason we created these groups was because classic and historic racing in NZ had pretty much taken on an allcomer-style flavour, with no regulations and no policing. We actually wanted to introduce rules to create some stability, and provide car owners a better return on their investment, as the ongoing costs that come with technology creep are mostly wiped out. Someone could spend a million dollars building an HMC car, but the rules are created in such a way to really won't be much faster, if at all, to a $50,000 car.
Thats the difference between NZ and other countries, such as the US where you are. The US have introduced stability, and for the most part kept technology out of historic racing. But I can see that there are probably people in the US and other countries who feel hemmed in by having tight regulations and would instead love a free-for-all allcomer group. However, what we wanted when we created HMC/HSC was to have tight regulations, because its something we've never had in NZ. I guess its a case of the grass always being greener on the other side.
Steve,
That was a well written reply to something I should have stayed away from, thank you, but when I went to racing at Pukekohe the fields looked like this; Jan 4 1969. NZGP. Pukekohe.
The Open Race for Saloon Cars would bring the crowd to its feet.
There certainly was a variety of cars. Note the Anglia of Bryan Marshall had a 997 cc engine and Neil Doyle also had an Anglia with a 5463 c.c. Corvette engine in it ! Allcomers Included indeed !
Attachment 44271
It shows how long I have been away from NZ racing !
(Ken H)
I will say no more.
Hi Ken, I love the entry list. Outstanding! By 1969 the NZ Saloon Championship was open to Group 5 cars, and the allcomers had been ousted, but clearly allcomer all-in races still took place, and were still very popular. I think in many cases allcomer races were held at prominent events because there were often international teams competing that didn't fit the NZ rules.
I always enjoy your posts Ken, keep them coming.
That's a yes from me too, If there is some more info, That is so unique. Split window Morrie with a v12........ Morr-guar??
Cheers
Sorry to disappoint you Paul and Grant but I was looking for some Garth Souness Morrari engine shots and came across this Moggy Jag pix. I did not mean to get this thread off track too far but I grew up with All-Comers / Unlimited saloons and it is still in my veins !
Attachment 44306
I did find this USA Jalopy Journal 2007 site had some interesting comments and photos etc.
H.A.M.B. "Hokey Assed Message Board"
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...aloons.163607/
(Ken H )
Wheels and Tyres continued:
Its popular these days to fit cars of 1965/66/67 vintage with Minilite wheels, and many of the cars competing throughout the world in historic racing are fitted with these wheels. And they look great. But for period accuracy, these cars should wear either factory steel wheels or Torq Thrust wheels because the Minilite was still a few years away when these cars were new.
So too, there are numerous 1967 and ’68 Camaros in historic racing which are fitted with Minilites. But these cars wouldn’t have worn these wheels when new. They would have had Torq Thrust wheels. That’s not to say there weren’t 1967 and ’68 Camaros that raced in period with Minilite wheels. Its just that they would have been two or three years old when fitted with this style of wheel. Meanwhile, a 1969/70 Mustang, 2nd gen Camaro, etc is a better fit for Minilite or American Racing 200-S daisy wheels than Torq Thrusts, as these were the in-thing by 1969. All the factory Trans-Am teams used Minilites in 1969, while both the factory Mustangs and Firebirds started out wearing daisy wheels. Sounds kind of lame, I know, but for an anorak, having the right wheel to match the car is important.
Of course, there are exceptions when it comes to original cars. Many privateer teams competing in SCCA A/Sedan and Trans-Am races had older equipment, either cars purchased second hand from factory teams, or self-built cars, often using a wrecked or older road car as the basis. So it was common to see guys racing 1967/68 Camaros and Mustangs fitted with Minilite wheels in 1969, 1970 etc. And in the cases where these cars still exist, they’re usually restored correctly, as raced in period. So too, cars like Bob Janes 1969 Camaro that won the 1971 and ’72 ATCCs, this car was built in 1970. It never wore anything other than Minilites.
However, for a car like mine being built from scratch as a replica of a semi-factory team car, I think its best to fit the latest style of wheel that was available and popular when that make/model was new. After all, the goal here is to make my car as accurate as possible to the original Craig Fisher Firebird.
Attachment 44328
For my car to look right, only the American Racing 5-spoke Torq Thrust wheel will do. However, American Racing of today are not American Racing of the 1960s. These days they’re a conglomerate who produces a huge number of wheels for an almost endless number of applications, including people movers and SUVs. So too, the 5-spoke wheel of the 1960s is no longer being produced. The closest in the current American Racing line-up is the Torq Thrust D. But the Torq Thrust D has a number of subtle differences to the original 5-spoke items of the ‘60s, with much more rounded spokes. Its no longer made from magnesium either, but that’s not a problem for a broken-arse pauper like me!
For those looking for a wheel that closely resembles the original 5-spoke American Racing wheel of the 1960s, there aren’t many options. Back in the 1980s, Phil Schmidt Engineering produced a beautiful looking wheel from alloy that was virtually identical to the original American Racing 5-spoke wheels. But Phil Schmidt sold his company some years ago, and this particular wheel is no longer being produced.
Attachment 44624
Vintage Engineering produce a gorgeous looking series of magnesium wheels for various racing applications, including an accurate replica of the 1960s American Racing 5-spoke. However, these wheels are expensive, at approx. US$1000 per wheel, which is way out of my league. As much as I’d love to order a set, being way down in New Zealand, I’d really need to also order a couple of spares, so I’d be all-in at US$6000, or approx NZ$10000. I just can’t afford that.
Attachment 44625
So I’ll go with the American Racing Torq Thrust D wheels, which while not completely accurate to the originals, are still a great looking wheel, and are affordable and readily available.
I got my wheels from Ian Woodward. Woody emailed me about getting some Monster Race Wear t-shirts done for his business, and I said rather than you pay for the tees, get me a set of used Torq Thrust wheels. American Racing are one of the sponsors of Australian Trans-Am. This he duly did, and brought them with him when the eight Australian Trans-Am cars came to race with HMC at Hampton Downs earlier this year.
I asked Woody to get me four 15 x 8 wheels, which is the correct size for a Trans-Am car. For some reason he got me two 8 inch and two 7 inch wheels. Having spoken to a couple of people running 7’s on the front of their cars, they reckon they provide excellent turn-in. However, I'd prefer to have 8 inch wheels on the front. I’m now thinking I might have to get a pair of 8.5 wheels for the rear, as the off-set is better, and provides a little more space within the inner guards for the fat tyres we run. So I have a few options there to consider. Once again, this was a really generous contribution from a good friend trying to help me out.
Attachment 44626
The still will look cool on the car Steve.
As a side-note, I'd really like to thank Ken Hyndman for sending me this beautiful book. Ken tracked down a copy, which is no longer being printed, and shipped it to me. It ended up making a few unplanned detours, but Ken persisted and it eventually found its way to me. Thanks Ken, I really love the book and really appreciate the gesture.
Attachment 44719
Thank you Steve,
I can verify it is the same book I sent as I see the tape in the bottom right corner.
This book went across the United States twice as the US postal tried to figure out NZ from NY !
It also spent time in NZ customs before it was released so I guess everyone there had a good read of it also, Steve..
Also hope you are able to check that Firebird site that seems to cover a lot of interesting items.
Cheers,
Ken
Tyres:
Back in the late 1960s when the SCCA Trans-Am series was in full swing, there was a tyre war going on between Goodyear and Firestone. And tyres made a huge difference to performance. Each company was constantly one-upping the other with new, stickier offerings. The Trans-Am was one of the biggest road racing championships in the world at the time, and success, be it car manufacturers, oil companies, engine builders, teams, or tyre manufacturers, was hugely important.
By todays standards, these tyres were pretty slippery old things, and really offered little grip. If you look at old Trans-Am videos you’ll see how much the cars moved around. They were four-wheel-drifting much of the time, and crossed up out of corners. It was part of what made racing so exciting.
The Goodyear tyre was called the Bluestreak, and featured small white embossed lettering as well as a thin blue stripe running around the circumference of the tyre. The Firestone was called the Indy, and featured a gold stripe. These were sexy tyres.
Attachment 44890
Attachment 44891
Attachment 44892
Photos courtesy Camaro Research Group
Back in the late 1960s and very early ‘70s, racing tyres, like road tyres, were of a cross-ply, or bias-ply design. They also had tread on them. It wasn’t until the early 1970s that radials and slicks began appearing in motorsport. That said, these cross-plies were proper racing tyres, the best money could buy, and the best the manufacturers could muster.
Impressively, both the Goodyear Bluestreak and Firestone Indy are still in production today, and have changed little in their design since the late 1960s. The rubber quality is better, and they do offer a little more grip. But they’re essentially the same tyres, manufactured to the same design and with the same tread pattern. The reason they’re still in production is very simple. Its because of the huge worldwide participation in historic racing. Such is the worldwide demand for correct historic racing tyres, these massive companies are still producing them. And the reason there is such demand is because the FIA, SCCA, CAMS etc etc, require period correct tyres in historic car racing, just as they do other aspects of cars be period correct.
Todays Goodyear Bluestreak looks a little different to that of the late 1960s. The white lettering is now much larger, applied with a stencil, while the neat little blue stripe is gone. Its too bad really, these tyres just looked so good in period. The tyres Goodyear produce now look outwardly similar to those they manufactured in the early 1970s, in that the blue stripe was gone and the lettering was much larger.
Attachment 44893
The Firestone Indy, however, is aesthetically an exact replica of that manufactured in period, including the small lettering and gold stripe. However, these tyres are now much more expensive than the Goodyears, produced in much smaller numbers, and are used mostly by people restoring historic race cars that are used for display purposes only. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a set on a car actually being raced.
Attachment 44894
Tyres continued:
With the worldwide growth in historic racing being what it is, a third manufacturer has also come to the party; Hoosier. Hoosier didn’t have a presence in high profile road racing in the 1960s, but they’ve cleverly tapped into the large historic racing market, and produce a nice cross-ply tyre that is significantly cheaper than the Goodyear Bluestreak. And as such, the Hoosier is in widestread use by historic racers around the world. At first glance, the Hoosier looks relatively similar to the Goodyear, but the tread is slightly different, and the side walls are more rounded.
One of the requirements of Historic Muscle Cars is that the V8s be on the correct 15 inch diameter wheels, and also be fitted with period correct cross-ply tyres. When HMC was first started, most teams used the Goodyear Bluestreak, but when the guys from Australian Trans-Am visited for the first time, they were all racing on the Hoosiers, and the majority of HMC teams have since followed suit. Its really only guys like Nigel MacDonald, with the ex-Red Dawson Shelby Mustang, who have kept using the Goodyears. And this is only to be period correct. The main reason for the switch to Hoosiers is the cost. But Cardwells in Auckland also supply these tyres, so availability is another strong point. With the Goodyears, Dale Mathers was buying vast stocks of lightly used tyres and selling them on to HMC teams, but this obviously wasn’t an ideal situation for him. He isn’t a tyre supplier.
Attachment 44895
For me, I’ll probably end up using the Hoosiers, but initially I’ll build the Firebird around a set of Goodyears. The reason for this is, the Goodyears have a more squared side wall, so its better to get all my clearances with these tyres during the build phase. The Hoosiers aren’t accepted everywhere, so there may come a time when I take the car to Europe and find I have to race on Goodyears. I don’t want to suddenly strike clearance problems.
I was hoping to just get a set of used Goodyears, but couldn’t find a complete set. Nigel MacDonald had a pair of used fronts off the Red Dawson Mustang which he kindly donated to me. Dale Mathers had a pair of rears which only have one heat cycle on them, which I purchased. As the rears are so good, I’ll purchase a set of fronts when it comes time to actually race the car, and these will be my first racing tyres. The Goodyear tyre sizes are 6.00-15 front and 7.00-15 rear.
Its amazing to think that when we first started HMC, a number of classic/historic racing event promoters didn’t want us racing on the cross-ply tyres, because they stipulate that cars must be on DOT road tyres, and the cross-plies all state they’re for racing purposes only. This is true, but they were for racing purposes only back in the 1960s. They’re not a modern slick radial. Despite the Hoosier and Goodyear tyres being widely accepted, and often demanded, throughout the world, a small group of HMC cars were prevented from racing at an event a few years ago because of their tyres. New Zealand really does have some catching up to do. However, with some careful education, these period correct tyres are now widely accepted in NZ and we’re now even seeing several small capacity Historic Saloon Cars being fitted with them, which of course is also correct for these cars.
These big tyres make the cars rock and roll through the turns, they break traction easily, and they look fantastic. Furthermore, they’re extremely durable. A set will easily last a season, and generally run out of grip before they run out of tread.
Who would have thought I could ramble on for so long about such an uninteresting subject as tyres! Truth is, there is no point building a period correct historic race car if you’re not going to fit period correct tyres.
Interior:
The interior of my car will have to be a bit of a compromise, as I’ll be building the car for both Appendix K and HMC/HSC, and it needs to be legal in both. Trans-Am cars had a gutted out interior. They had nothing, just a single drivers seat, and very basic dash. Some cars retained the factory dash, others just had a basic dash cluster. Trans-Am cars weren’t required to have side windows, nor window winders, arm rests etc. But these are all required in HMC. So I’ll need to fit them. This will add weight to my underpowered car, but I don’t have a choice.
Below is a photo of the Gagnon Springs Camaro that became Craig Fisher's Firebird. You can see it does have the door cards and handles, but the dash is a flat sheet of aluminium, while the gauge cluster is an alloy box.
Attachment 45001
Photo courtesy Camaro Research Group.
Below is a current photo of one of the 1968 Penske Camaros. Although the dash pad is a factory part, the rest of the dash is custom made, and very business-like.
Attachment 45002
Attachment 45003
The interior of my car will be a light grey, which was commonly used in most Trans-Am cars of the day, including the Fisher Firebird. Most Trans-Am cars during the late 1960s and early ‘70s had light grey interiors, and this often continued underneath. The reason for this is not clearly known. I’ve asked several people with much greater knowledge on the history of the Trans-Am series than I have, and it appears there are at least three reasons for it.
Firstly, the grey paint helped keep cabin temperatures down, compared to say, black paint. Trans-Am races were long, and while the drivers were tough as hell, the cars had no power steering, and there were no such things as cool suits.
Secondly, having light grey paint allowed any oil leaks to be more easily spotted.
Thirdly, all the factory teams, and many of the well prepared independent teams, heavily acid dipped their body shells to get weight out of the cars. Remember, race cars were only designed to last a season, if that, and longevity wasn’t important. So they acid dipped the shells to within an inch of their lives. In the case of the Autodynamics Dodge Challengers from 1970, the shells weren’t properly neutralized following the dipping, and they continued to etch. The light grey paint allowed crews to easily spot any cracking where the metal had become too thin and was breaking apart. Dodge Challenger driver Sam Posey relates how his car would actually break apart during races, and he could see the ground racing past as the shell pulled apart around him. Sounds like fun!
I haven’t decided yet who I’ll get to build the rollcage. This will happen right towards the end of the build, after most of the fabrication is complete, as the cage will need to be built around items such as the doors handles etc. One of the things I won’t be having are the A-pillar braces that are a common sight in many race car builds these days whereby there is a plate welded in the space between the vehicles inner A-pillars, and the A-pillar section of the cage. The cage needs to look period correct, just like the rest of the car, and not like something from a V8 Supercar. Besides, I’m not sure these A-pillar braces will go down too well with the FIA. I’ve never seen an Appendix K car with these bracing plates, so assume they’re not allowed.
I asked Chad Raynal what type of steering wheel the Historic Trans-Am guys like to use to create the right period correct look, and he said Superior Performance Products. They come in different shapes and sizes, but he recommended at least 14 inches, and preferably 15 inches, from the outside diameter. These wheels are no longer being produced by are offered fairly regularly on Ebay. Chad also said I’d need to get one with a foam grip, as opposed to vinyl.
Below is Chad’s wheel. I’ll need to keep an eye out on Ebay to get one for myself.
Attachment 45004
Have you looked at Grant Steering Wheels Steve ?. I think Kirby Seats also sold those cushion centres for the steering wheels as well.
Steve, I have a 14.5 inch Grant you can try to see if you like it. Same style type as above.
Its pretty old, just how you like it!
Cheers
Sorry no, its solid PVC grip, guess it is from 1970s.
Cheers
This showed up a couple of days ago, sent down by Shane at Segedins. A 3 inch Eagle crank. The Chevy '001' engine block has a 4 inch bore, and combined with a 3 inch crank, provides an near perfect engine size for the Trans-Am series of 302 cu.in. This combination was what the original Z28 Camaro was based around, as this model was specifically designed for the Trans-Am series.
The Trans-Am series had a 5 litre engine limit, so the serious Chevy teams bored the block slightly to bring them up to around 305 cu.in, which is just a smidgen under the 5 litre limit.
Attachment 46329
Steve- should that be a 010 block ?
Looks nice Steve, it will all be coming together very soon, you have a great collection of parts.
I will have those rear caliper mounts for you soon.
B.
Hi Bruce, thanks heaps. Means a lot coming from you. After much to-ing and fro-ing, I've decided to fit a Chevy 10 bolt, after speaking with Ian Woodward. He is building it for me in Queensland.