Discuss the various formats for historic racing

Hi Old Fart, Your comment about the mainland cars (SI) is very true. When I raced in the 0-1300 Shellsport Championship against Reg Cook and Robbie Francevic, our Datsuns looked very similar to the SI cars. Of course the were not the same. Trevor Crowes car was an OSCA car.
Robbie Lester brought Trevor up to Manfield one time to create a match up with my car. The spectators would never have realised that the cars were running under different rules.
Your comments about Targa are right on. My son and I are about to build an escort for autocross and rallying. We are going to build it as they were, with period parts. It will compete against the classic class cars, which seem to have all sorts of components installed. We will only have a 2.0 pinto engine, and trying to place highly will be difficult against BDG, zetec, duratech and the like engined cars.
The thing I did not mention in Aust was the group C Association. They only let genuine period cars run. They need the original log book as proof. I have driven 3 of these cars. 2 of them were group c Capris ( the old Masterman homes/Bryan Burt Ford cars), and the other was Dick Johnsons Bryan Burt Ford XC Hardtop.
It is a little bit elitist. The owners of these cars have kittens if you get to close to other competitors. I was told DO NOT bend them!
As I have been in Australia since 1986, I really do not know anything about what you guys face with officialdom in NZ. If it is still like the old days, ......good luck. Regards to all. Steve

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Originally Posted by Dave Silcock

Steve, sorry I misunderstood you position on replicas and I agree one does like to drive what ever car you are in as well as one can.Last time I looked, and it seems I don"t have the latset book,any form of series or championship is prohibited by MSNZ, which is how it should be in my opinion.
Dave.

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Hi Dave, You really have got to the heart of the matter, as far as Qld is concerned. When I got the class recognized as a CAMS Championship, I thought I was doing the right thing for everyone. It did give us our own races, rather than be lost amongst club car fields.
It all became too serious over time. The cars started to be built like sports sedans. It also attracted the wrong sort of mind set for this class. I possibly in hindsight made an error.
It should have been about racing these cars for the pleasure of driving them.
It is amazing what some people will do to get their hands on a plastic trophy.
regards, Steve

Hi Steve is your Dad still about I last saw him at the 91 SFOS in yellow Torana

Hi Jim, Yes, Dad turns 80 this month. He lives just a short distance from me and my brother also. I have bought a little escort and he will be driving that in autocross at Willowbank. He got a trophy the other day. The car is std at the moment but we are about to modify it. The Photo is of me, my daughter Krystal, who won a ladies trophy, and Dad. 3 trophies for the Emson Family. A good day.
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This reminds me of when I was at the Easter Show , Epsom in early 70s, a group of Waikaraka Park guys were at the fun go karts.They arranged themselves so that they all got on the at the same time, then they started.It was spectacular to say the least. My take- people who want to race will race. It is only the rules that will limit the technology. Once points, trophys and championships are introduced then its hero time. Historic racing here talks about the spirit , not the ego or competitive edge. Bruce 302 is right on the money when he says that the authentic car is what it is all about , that pulls the crowds. A racing replica is just that, second best. Second best, for me is still better than sitting on the side lines. Choose the class that suits you- thats what HMC is all about.

Best you get that Falcon finished then John. Instead of watching through the windscreen, you`ll be watching from the other side of the fence.

Believe me Steve , it is high priority , even if I keep the original brakes set up on it will be at HD January.Have to keep the Camaro ,Mustang Javelin numbers balanced.Its always easy to race from the other side of the fence, hardest part is getting others to fit my deadlines. Roll cage being painted today.

Hi All

I figured this topic needed a bit of fresh meat tossed into the arena for the boys to tear at!
Surely classic and historic racing is about racing the cars as they were in their day, or as near to the period specifications as is possible with technology and safety in mind? Otherwise, if the vehicle contains modern adaptations and greater sophistication, then it can still race, but in club events. I presume that when the thousands of people went to see the Mosquito flying at Ardmore, they expected it to be running twin Rolls Royce Merlins, not turbo charged Nissan V16's. It is similar with Historic and classic cars. People want to see them as they were and with a similar performance to what they had in period. The most long lasting series and classes have a good set of regulations that keep cheating to a minimum of innovation and provide close racing.

There are two schools of thought on the makeup of the grids for H&C racing. One is cars of a similar period, so, say 1960's cars would have Mustangs against Mini Coopers and 1970's would then have the later cars and the 1980's etc. The second is to group the cars together by lap time proximity.
This then could put tecnologically more advanced cars with dinosaurs from previous decades. From a specator's stand point, it would depend if you were a purist, or just want to be entertained, as to which form of racing you enjoy.

I first started classic racing in 1982, so I've seen quite a lot of change over 30 years and not always for the good. Before that I raced in the National classes for a while, so understand where that perspective comes from.

Tony Roberts

[I] Bruce 302 is right on the money when he says that the authentic car is what it is all about , that pulls the crowds. A racing replica is just that, second best. Second best, for me is still better than sitting on the side lines. Choose the class that suits you- thats what HMC is all about.[I]

John, the more I see and hear from other participants I realise I was only seeing from the perspective of one of my cars. Everyone wants to have fun and exercise their cars appropriately. There are plenty of very good drivers in very well built and fast cars. Instinctively I'm sure we all understand that , say, a Maser 250 F has nothing more to prove, it can be exercised a bit less frenetically than newer cars made in greater numbers.
Perhaps each grid needs like minded entrants that are aware of the people they are sharing the track with. Problems are more likely when those racing for trophies and mixed with those that aren't.
In general, we are very lucky to have a high standard of driving in V & C 'racing'.

Bruce.

Well said Bruce. Morse code should stay in the military and not be used in the braking area. Having said that, the need for speed is not paramount, sure it helps, but entertaining and enjoyable racing should be the winner on any given race day.

All you guys have good points, but what really IS "Classic and Historic" racing in NZ? we would all like to own and race the original but these cars are so few in NZ not all can own one, let alone the price! your Pontiac for instance Bruce has made all the history its ever going to make so any further on track events today is purely for the benefit of public entertainment(and yourself), thats why events like the festival is the place and time for your vehicle. Having a very close silhouette "Saloon" class like HMC is about as good as it can get for those interested in NZ motorsport "Saloon" history, that also want to race and to recreate what it must have been like for Fahey, Dawson, Marwood and so on(and the luv of the cars).

What i've learned over the years is no matter what the group is, and what one decides to race, ITS THE PERSONS ATTITUDED that counts, and to help "soften" this attitude you must remove the BULLSEYE and thats why HMC will have NO trophy's, points rounds, yearly series, prize givings, etc. Because with this comes people wanting to WIN with less concern about "the history", and the lenghts i've seen people go to over the years to WIN at there chosen category is truly amazing, and generally to fund ones racing this leads to sponsors but they want value for money(EG, winning on TV) and when they don't get value for money they want to know WHY, and so you start one big vicoius circle. But, luckly here in good ol NZ there seens to be a place for everybody.

I personally think we missed the boat years ago when i comes to sorting out our NZ Classic class's, the Aussies pretty much have it sorted and its strictly controlled by there sancturing body, i know they have there issue's!! those grizzling about can't get old parts anymore, bla bla bla but i tend to think "well you knew what you where in for" why did you do it(or maybe they didnt?)!!

One thing i've noticed with the inception of HMC is AGE, as we get older we tend to see what we do with a bit more insight, interestingly in the US they have a Seniors historic group, no not for the cars, the owners must be 70 plus to race, true!!LOL

Dale M

Dale, I dont think we have missed the boat in sorting out our classic class.In Aus for example cars have disappeared-Terry Allens Camaro for example.Here they can be accounted for as we are such a small country.Second we have never been a disposable car society like them , so consequently car bodies and parts can still be found.Our problem is that we love to tinker and experiment so a period replica will never really satisfy a need to improve the thrill.They are very strict on authenticity of period racers, yet they still complain that not enough cars showing up.Tranzam over there fills a need.You said yourself there was a need for HMC. The other Muscle car class was set up years ago and we all can see when you stray from sensibility,I think the timing is right and these threads show the genuine interest now with all past experience to keep the reins tight on rules-Sir, is this how the car left the factory?One downside is that all the cigarette companies will be loving all the free advertising on authentic and replicas -and no sponsorship money passing hands.

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Originally Posted by Kiwiboss

What i've learned over the years is no matter what the group is, and what one decides to race, ITS THE PERSONS ATTITUDED that counts, and to help "soften" this attitude you must remove the BULLSEYE and thats why HMC will have NO trophy's, points rounds, yearly series, prize givings, etc. Because with this comes people wanting to WIN with less concern about "the history", and the lenghts i've seen people go to over the years to WIN at there chosen category is truly amazing,
Dale M

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About five years ago we dispensed with championships, points and trophies for the Formula Juniors and I think this has, at least in part, contributed to the growth in grid numbers. People race with like minded people for the enjoyment of exercising great period race cars - there is nothing to win so egos and hero passing acts don't really happen. The philosophy for the cars is "as it was, so it shall be" and this along with a reasonable supply of genuine period cars at not stupid prices makes for fun for drivers and a spectacle for the crowd.

It would seem in some parts, even if a car has history and is highly valuable, it still gets beaten to death for the sake of winning. There has been quite an uproar in the last couple of weeks over Martin Brundle destroying Bill Shepherds AC Cobra at Goodwood, trying desperately to keep pace with the leading Daytona coupe. He flew into St Mary's too hot, lost control and fired straight into the Bryant Cobra. Both cars are severely damaged. And all for what?

Answers simple Steve, as plain as a Bulgarian pin-up.Owner gave car to professional race car driver,. End of story.. The word desperate says it all.I dont believe the word desperate comes under spirit of Historic Races .These are old Historics and the ego of the owner matches the drive-MUST WIN AT GOODWOOD winning is everything..No respect for 40 plus year old machinery.In America he would be out the door immediately as Bruce 302 has rightly stated .Having had an Alfa smack into the back of my Mustang when the start lights didnt change reinforces my belief you race with those who have a strong personal attachment to their car.Check the umbilical cords of the other drivers on the grid before you get on the track

Hopefully Brundle won't get invited back to race. That would send a strong message to the red eyed idiots that they won't be welcome if they act that way. That could be most embarrassing for them to be ousted for a period of time.

It used to be 'all care and no responsibility' with some of these characters it 'no care and absolutely no responsibility.' I remember reading of another ex F1 driver who did the same thing to a valuable Ferrari and the just walked away with a shrug of his shoulders.

Question; did the owner ask Brundle to drive, or was this one of Lord Marchs known forays to an owner insisting that his selected drivers take over? (Or either park your car or leave the building)

Its probably a combination of the two Rhys. I know there is quite a lot of pressure to have a 'name' driver either alongside or instead of the owner at this event, and in fact, doing this goes a long way to having entries accepted. Grant C told me he was rejected an entry a few years ago with his Connaught when he told the organisers he planned to drive the car himself, not loan it out to a 'name' driver.

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Originally Posted by Steve Holmes

Its probably a combination of the two Rhys. I know there is quite a lot of pressure to have a 'name' driver either alongside or instead of the owner at this event, and in fact, doing this goes a long way to having entries accepted. Grant C told me he was rejected an entry a few years ago with his Connaught when he told the organisers he planned to drive the car himself, not loan it out to a 'name' driver.

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Its a very fine balancing act Steve, the historic event organisers want a "named" driver to advertise too attract the paying public, the car owners wants to be at this event with his zillion dollar car and hopes the named drive will look after his treasure, the named driver has been a racer all his life(otherwise he wouldn't be a named driver) but still wants to win!! you them put him in a race with other named drivers driving other persons treasures and "CAR-bam" it ends in tears!! although not always!!

At Monterey this year they had 850 race applicants(so i was told) but can only take 530, me mate John Watkins racing his IMSA Boss Mustang in 2010 put his two outside wheels off the racing line corning 4 times in one race and kick up a small amount of dust and was then stood down for the 2011 Historics event as he was considered "over driving" his old car, he was back this year. They are real tuff on this at this event but they have the numbers to beable to do so!!

Dale M

If that is the case then maybe Lord March should be picking up the tab for the stupidity of his 'named' drivers. I guess that the owners have a choice here and most decide to take the risk. Wonder if they are keen to return in the future after such an eye watering experience.

Can see why Paul Morris (Aus )does not drive there then.

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Originally Posted by kiwi285

If that is the case then maybe Lord March should be picking up the tab for the stupidity of his 'named' drivers. I guess that the owners have a choice here and most decide to take the risk. Wonder if they are keen to return in the future after such an eye watering experience.

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Read the reply from Steve above. It was Grant who told me too. It is not as if he does not have pretty good driving pedigree himself, and would not be a dissapointment, but I guess it proves fairly well the the "Cars are NOT the stars" at that event, and they should be.
If it needs the "named drivers" I would be surprised, I suspect that most spectators are there for the cars, and the drivers are a bonus, not the other way round.

Interesting drift for the thread. Having been to three Goodwood Festival of Speed (hillclimb) and two Revival (race) meetings, my own perspective may not align with others, but I go to see the cars, not the named drivers. Same applies at Hampton Downs or any other meeting.

Lord March's sandpit, Lord March's rules. There is absolutely no doubt at all that these two events are world class, but ironically, I have never been on the Sunday, (for various reasons) and my memories are of stunning cars, iconic noises (BRM V16 for example) and guest appearances by celebrity drivers, not as racers, but just being there. Practices are interesting and photogenic enough to make the trips worthwhile.

We all aware of the amazing restoration work done by Hall & Hall, Dick Crosthwaite etc., and we are privileged to be able to see and hear these cars being exercised. Whether at 6/10ths or 8/10ths is irrelevent for me.

As others have pointed out, the win at all costs attitude of some drivers, does the sport no good at all.

Here in NZ, with our ERC Series we don't take points scoring too seriously, but I'd like to think that the guys enter because of the camaraderie, a more pragmatic attitude towards the cars and an acceptance that we have the right to suspend or bar them if they get out of line with our aims and objectives.

Ask any of them who turn up for the annual awards dinner, and I doubt that any of them will tell you it has anything to do with the awards, other than the silly ones, and everything to do with a very social get together at the end of the season for a nice meal and a few laughs.

Few seem to remember that classic grids 20 years ago were somewhat mismatched, with bog standard GTs sharing the track with Owen Evans, Racing Ray Williams et al and there was very little for the amateur low budget racer at all. TACCOC dumped all series as their philosophy was as stated above, but grids were somewhat haphazard, other than Whenuapai which was a real annual event with great grids.

Whilst we have our critics, (who doesn't?) we still believe that if driver behaviour is well controlled, it counts for rather more than whether or not the car is 100% period. Democratically, if enough people believe a car is deemed to be outside the acceptance criteria, or the spirit of the rules, or the driver doesn't understand what we are about, they go.

Simple enough, but the costs of running a meeting are getting a bit too high to be too precious about every single aspect, about every single car, which is why we have allowed a couple of non-registered cars to run with us this weekend, at TACCOC's Pukekohe meeting.

No doubt there are wealthy drivers in any country with expensive, original cars, who can afford to get them fixed, and who drive with rather less care than the amateur with a good replica. Goodwood Revival is the classic example of purity not being respected and there are more dings there each year than there should be. So the hoary old argument about genuine classics not wanting to race against replicas doesn't really stand close scrutiny when you see what they do to themselves! There is NO level playing field anyway, when you can pitch a 7 litre 700 BHP V8 against a 75bhp 4 cylinder on the same grid.

I remember well the grids from 20 years ago in TACAC . Porche had their own series , but wanted to run with the easier older cars. However, I loved the series as it was fun, nobody seemed overly worried about points,except Jim Chrystal. Whenuapai had a magic of its own, no track specialists there.Definitely a low budget era, you could drive to Hamilton Street race in your race car ,it was just like a bigger go-kart track. Ah nostalgia.lets do it again. Just look at Bruce Anderson, he keeps going,and going- a fine example

Ah, Jim Chrystall... He was equal winner of the BMC Trophy when I first ran our series. At that time, it was one scratch race and one handicap race, so inevitably, the winner was always one of the faster cars.

When I announced at the trophy presentation, that for the following season, both points races would be handicaps, Jim marched off into the distance, clutching the trophy (that he refused to return until shortly before his passing), muttering that I had turned the series into a lottery... Correct. And we have never looked back.

I did seek permission from his widow to rename the trophy, the "Jim Chrystall Memorial Trophy", which is still awarded to the driver of the top points scoring 4 cylinder BMC car.