You are quite correct here Holbay developed these and they were quite successful, but they are very different from a YB, which were developed well after the MK1 and Mk11 Escorts used by date.
Roger
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Take this as a scenario - which just happens to be fairly near to the truth!
1) A standard 1970's Rover 3500S P6 has a CoD as it conforms in all respects.
2) A standard 1956 MG Magnette has a CoD as it conforms in all respects.
3) The engine in the Magnette fails and the body of the P6 is wrecked in an accident, but combining the two into one car doesn't qualify for CoD or acceptance as a Classic, regardless of the DNA.
However, combining a Mazda Rotary with an Austin Seven using the same analogy could also apply, but if no one would let it run, (or maybe someone would let it run!) then the driver/constructor is out in the cold.
Combining a Gyspy Moth aeroplane engine with a sports Riley however, excites us all and yet when you examine it, it is merely our own perception and philosophy and dare I say it, personal prejudice, that accepts one but not the other.
No one has yet given me a REASON for not accepting a period repowered car into the classic fold. The only statement that has been put up so far is that "it wasn't built in period". That is not, in my humble opinion, a valid reason. It is a personal opinion only. No one has yet come up with a genuine reason as to why it shouldn't run.
Even if the ERC Series and/or the MGCC Series were the only events that accepted the car, that would be my problem, no one elses. Certainly not the commission's problem as to where cars may run, as further down the line, rules are already in place to prevent a Rotary Austin 7 running with us. It is up to meeting organisers/promoters to choose to invite Series cars, or, they have an open grid where they decide who can and can't run. If organisers accepted the Rotary Austin, then they would have to accept any potential backlash from other competitors. Not the Commissions' problem.
I wouldn't expect a repower to be allowed into the current HD Festival meeting for example, as that meeting is currently aimed fairly and squarely at conforming cars, the closer to Schedule K the better. If however, the dollar counts, so instead of inviting the BMW E30s for example, who may not make up a full grid, that grid was offered to the ERC Series (which is highly unlikely!) who might fill the grid, then the organisers would have to accept the series eligibility rules, so it is all self policing at meeting level.
Having a car scrutineered to Schedule A rather than AA doesn't appear to be a major problem, given that scrutineers are there for safety reasons not eligibility reasons anyway. We won't broach the vexed problems of roll cages today though...
The question, Crunch, was quite straight forward ... and relevant ... and nothing to do with the Rally Commission Chairman. Historic & Classic rally cars are COD'd against Schedule RH which is your purview.
A "period modification" as defined in RH requires manufacturers homologation. This was not the case with the YB powered Escort and the COD was incorrectly issued. We have all accepted that the mistake was made, the car exists and that is history.
The question remains whether that has set precedent for future applications and whether that precedent is limited to exact replications of this particular COD or other makes and models similarly modified.
I have particular interest in the answer as I am presently looking to import a car for the 2014 Silver Fern. Given your revelation, that there may be "quite a few cars with COD's that should never have got them", others may be similarly interested in the answer.
Although I am not conversant with this particular car, I think I read in an earlier post by Crunch that indicated that the owner had come up with documentation that an Escort ran with this engine/head in period. If this documentation was incorrect then the basis on which the COD was issued was also incorrect and I would have thought the COD could be accordingly withdrawn. You certainly don't want to perpetuate something that is not correct.
I agree Roger. Although Crunch has also stated that, once issued, a COD cannot be rescinded. Which was the comment that prompted the enquiry as, if a precedent is established, it opens significant floodgates.
You can't have a situation where a COD has been issued in error and despite that it can't be rescinded. A COD is applied for by an applicant who provides information in support of the application to a vetting group. The COD is approved or decline on the basis of the information provided. If it is subsequently found the information provided is wrong (either by error or deliberately) then the basis of issue is flawed and it should be reassessed with the correct information. If this results in the COD being withdrawn then I would think the applicant has no come-back against MSNZ.
It seems totally illogical that an applicant can put in a COD application saying his car has X gearbox (which complies) when all along it had a Y gearbox that didn't comply and then demand the COD stands despite the clear error. It should make no difference whether the "error" was deliberate or a genuine mistake.
The issue, in this particular case, is not the accuracy of the information provided by the applicant, but rather the wrongful interpretation of it's relevance as assessed by the COD issuer.
Now, I absolutely agree. The COD ought be revoked.
However 5 years have passed and the car has changed hands, at least once but possibly more, with the COD no doubt forming a sizeable part of it's value. Perhaps the window of opportunity has gone?
In which case, where does it leave the rest of us?
I am not sure that on its own, a CoD for the majority of cars, adds significantly to the value. In the early years particularly, there were extremes. Some were denied for petty reasons and others slipped through the net. Over the years, the jury is well and truly out as to the real value of the whole CoD system. I also doubt that the average auditor is going to establish or determine the accuracy of the CoD as it stands now, just with a cursory inspection. If the auditor is a marque expert, it is highly unlikely that they are experts on all other marques.
For a genuine single seater or sports racer with history, maybe even a saloon with history, the CoD establishes a degree of provenance, but on its own, doesn't.
For a run of the mill production car such as a VW Golf, or an MGB, I doubt the CoD adds any value at all and is seen by many as no more than a flurry of red tape/paperwork and extra cost, for no real benefit. Once a cage is welded into a classic saloon or GT, the dash modified or rear seat modifed to accommodate it, it is permanently damaged and devalued anyway.
There have been many such cars offered on TradeMe and generally, they fetch a much lower price than an unmolested standard car, even though the owner has spent a thousand or two on safety equipment.
A V8 stuffed into an Escort is obviously not pure, but at least there is no finger pointing and bonnet lifting, which is not always the case with cars presented as standard or period.
At the risk of repeating myself yet again there is no level playing field in classics anyway other than maybe the BMW E30s, which is a control series, so any cars in our series with 300cc or 500cc more than declared, are handicapped according to track performance anyway. They kid no one and therefore there is virtually no finger pointing.
I'm not too sure that documentation like a COD (and a MSNZ log book) doesn't add value in certain circumstances. Not too long ago an un-named high profile person with an un-named car that was an excellent replica of the real thing applied for a log book with a chassis reference belonging to the real car. It was probable that this would have got through the system and a log book would have been issued giving the car an identity which would have been accepted overseas. Fortunately people knowledgeable with respect to this marque got involved and it was eventually issued with a log book that recorded it was not the real thing. Likewise a COD can be used as a "seal of approval" that the car is acceptable for racing in NZ - and this can have a value, especially when there are cars around that for whatever reason are "orphans".
With respect to the matter of cars over the capacity declared, the first question is why didn't they declare the correct capacity? If they have told porkies about capacity what other components aren't true to the declaration? For example, T&C have provision for overcapacity (Groups 1 and 2 provide for a 12.5% increase and Groups 3 and 4 allow a 0.060" overbore). These increases were meant to allow for a re-bore on tired engines but increasingly new engines are built to the increased capacity. I suppose it gets to a position of where you draw the line - today an extra 500cc is OK, tomorrow a sequential gearbox is OK because it looks like a standard gear lever, the next time it may be a supercharger that was never there and then dread of dreads it could be one of Ray's engine transplants :rolleyes: Eventually you haven't got a classic or historic car anymore, just something that use to be one.
Bruce
I am told that the information supplied by the owner of the car at the time was correct. There was no interpretation as it was in black & white.
I am also informed this was the second Schedule RH COD issued. Apparently two or three (1st Silver Fern?) years ago when someone raised this whole thing, it was reviewed again and found to be correct.
Any further issues you have with this subject should be addressed to Mike at the MSNZ office.
I think Roger that your points are 100% valid - for an historic race car. A FF or FJ with an increased capacity is obviously a major issue, but with Ford Escorts (aren't they just a brilliant example!!!) in race or rally spec, they can be anything from a cooking 1100cc to 2000cc and way beyond, in all states of tune and head configuration. As they are likely to be sharing the same gravel or tarmac at the same time, it all becomes rather academic.
The idea of sequential gearboxes which I presume were not a period option is a red herring, but superchargers have been bolted on to all manner of cars for 100 years as period options. Under the old book, we had the classic case of "a car must have a cylinder head of the original material". For a BMC B series engine, this was a cast iron siamesed port. On the next page "period modifcations are allowed" so we also had cars with alloy cross flow heads etc.
None of this however answers the repower issue with period parts... I think Crunch is as keen as anyone for this to be discussed openly but apart from a bit of hijacking and a couple of posters, any form of useful discussion for guidance so far, has been a bit thin.
Maybe most people either don't have an opinion or don't care so it does make it difficult to establish a way forward.
You are correct Crunch. The issue is black & white.
Was the Escort homologated with the YB engine? No, it was not. Therefore it is not compliant and should never have been issued a COD.
I am sorry Ray if you think I have hijacked the thread. That was not the intention.
This is a thread about repowered classics and my question is essentially - if the officialdom knowingly (or otherwise) allow the certification of a non compliant car, what impact does that have on others when they are making buying decisions, in respect of such cars?
The question could have and should have been answered when it was raised two pages ago. Crunch's inability and/or unwillingness to acknowledge the issue and answer the question is disappointing yet, sadly, not at all surprising.
No one in their right mind would race the nose heavy Volve B30 engined car, when the better balanced B20 engined car was more suited to track work, so homologation in period is yet another red herring. That effectively rules mine out as getting an FIA Appendix K label, even though it is standard in all except wheels and brakes, because they weren't homologated for racing in period.
Homologation is not the current issue here. Fitting period parts is. So does that include fitting a period engine or not? Is an engine a part of the package?
I have no knowledge of classic racing but I won't let that stop me from having an opinion! :p
Absolutely yes, cars modified with period parts should have a place in classic racing, how un-Kiwi to think otherwise! We need all types of racing. We need the purists who require homologation before the cover can be changed on the fuse-box - these 'stock' cars are our history, we need to see them and they need to have a class that allows them to be competitive and race with like-minded people. We also need the people that put a period blower on a BDA and cram it in the back of their Hillman imp, who doesn't appreciate looking at a well engineered, tastefully modified race-car? Who doesn't like seeing a Hillman Imp nipping at the heels of a Porsche or maybe showing it a clean pair of heels...? Most of us love the old Sports Sedans/OSCA car, aren't period-mod cars a bridge between that class and the 'pure' classics?
How about a class where period-mods are allowed as long as all the components were available within a set time of the car's manufacture? I'm sure we'd see some great cars put together, maybe some old Sports Sedans modified and brought back into the fold? For the less modified or less highly tuned cars, how about a power to weight ratio rule that would allow them to run in a wider field of classics but not single-marque races? Once the power to weight ratio is broken they go and play with the highly modified cars.
I've only got an old S4 Lotus 7. Nothing anyone would get worked up about if I modified and a type of car subject to a lot of in-period modification. I'd like to think that if I decided to put a 70's-spec rotary in the car, there would be somewhere 'classic' to play. I also think that if I was to put a latest-spec rotary with electronic everything and twin-turbos that I should be out in the cold, running with modern racecars.
Anyway, just an opinion from someone who doesn't know much!
Exactly the sort of response I was hoping for. Thanks Paul.
Historic and Classic racing regulation is something the Australians do so much better than us in New Zealand, which is surprising for the offspring of prostitutes and murders. CAM's have a very strong will to preserve older vehicles as they were and to resist change very strongly - probably the strongest in the world in that regard. Is this correct course of action? You would have to think so, because this is the mandate given to their commission and to the NZ Historic and Classic Commission. In a pure sense the cars should be as they were. If it's an E Type Jag, then it is as original as it can be, taking into account some changes in tyre technology etc.
Taking Pauls account above of how much fun it would be to see an Imp beating a Porsche, if the imp was powered by Lotus Twin Cam and the Porsche by a Chev small block, would any of it have much relevance? Sure it would be exciting and may have been possible in period, but it is of novelty value only, as its not a Hilman Imp racing a Porsche.
Unlike Australia, the NZ scene especially up north is dominated by classic and historic race series. In Australia if your are an 'O' class sportscar, then that is what you race in all over Australia and you know that there are stringent rules that you will race under and every car will comply, be it Perth or Sydney. It is not possible to get NZ to line up with this thinking, so the different series will prevail.
We have a set of regulations in the MSNZ book for Historic and Classic racing that form a framework for H&C racing in NZ, along with the COD system to verify that competing vehicles do in fact meet these regulations. This is workable except for the number of series that spring up not quite adhering to the H&C rules. Just lately we have had the new MX5 series start up with its own set of rules that don't compley with the manual. Why? These cars could have just as easily adhered to the Historic and Classic racing existing rules and ensured an easy absorbtion in the future - now they won't. Same thing with the BMW E30 class, old enough for H&C,but misses out by running a single seat and allowing the glove box to be removed. Why are there four Muscle Car groups? Surely some common ground could be found?
Anyway, I digress from the thread. Ray, the possible modified in period cars could be run as a series if you could get enough of them, but would be outside the MSNZ rules. You would probaly find race meeting promoters that would run a grid of these cars for the novelty value. The concept does appeal to some people who dream of moving outside of the existing boundaries of what Historic and Classic racing is about, just as OSCA does in the South Island. The cars that were modified this way in period, with V8's in Escorts and Cortina's are real Sch K cars and another lot of modern 'recreations' could devalue the original cars.
Putting modern gear in old cars makes them a great club car, but it is not for Historic and Classic racing. Imagine the dissappointment of an old guy wondering up to an MG Magnette and saying to his grandson, "this were great old cars son. I remember taking your grandmother for her first date!" Then "Aaaaah what have they done to the engine, the whole cars wrong, oh my heart!"
Totally agree with this synopsis - keep historic and classic cars as just that - cars that represent "standard" cars of the period with modifications allowed under current regulations. This doesn't mean that there should be no home for re-powered or out of period modified "classics". Although in my mind they can never be a genuine historic or classic car they could find a home somewhere if enough get built and someone puts on events for them. It is probably unlikely that they could race in classic meetings like the upcoming Festival but some clubs could put on a grid for them in their clubmans type meetings?
Ah, and here is the problem. These guys WANT to race with the Classic/Historic brigade, not with some ordinary club meet. There is a perception that the Historic/Classic scene is 'a bit special', like the Denny festival. Not only do these guys want to RACE, they want to be SEEN to race. Mixing and mingling with the 'enthusiasts' at these special meetings carries a bit of cudos, does it not. No club meet that I have ever been to has this feeling of style. Well how can it with a bunch of Evos, Hondas and Toyotas......good as they are for what they are doing.
Time and again on this thread it has been questioned 'where do these guys race'......there are meetings, but the owners arent interested because the admiring public are not there, drooling over there babies.
A different era I'm afraid. Look at the average age of the Classic brigade......oldish!!!!!
Now, as for bolting a supercharger on.....go for it. Note Supercharger NOT Turbo charger. Superchargers have been around since 'Auntie fell off the Tram'. Unfortunately they got a bit of bad press in the old days, as we didnt fully understand what was going on in the combustion chamber......compression ratios. I had Shorrock super charger on my MG TC for a while, and even with the terrible petrol around at the time certainly gave the rather pedestrial TC a bit of get up and go. The TC had as standard a rather low CR so it didnt seem to worry it unduly......and had a lovely sound.
Woops strayed a bit Ray....sorry
I could not agree more, in fact there is a group, including one from the VCC, that have been charged by the H & C Commission to look at the CAMS regulations in Historic racing and try and tie them up with our T & C, to give it more strength, unfortunately another couple of minor events has slowed this down a bit ( Xmas and the Governace review ) but its hoped that this will be back on track very soon, personally, I think if MSNZ had followed this plan, and I hate to note that I think the Aussies got it right, I don't think we would be having a lot of the debates we are now.
Roger
There are a quite a few 'club' cars that should have transitioned into 'classic' racecars. They may have had bolt-on flares and wings etc but they generally had some semblance of the original engine or perhaps a period-repower. Many didn't get the of chance to age gracefully though and have either been wrecked or given totally modern powerplants in order to remain competitive. Personally I think we've missed a trick here, there are a lot of people who would like to see these period racers sliding around the track with their peers. Preserving our local motorsport history and character should be given priority up there with preserving marque heritage. I know classic and historic fields are big right now but history suggests it is much safer to be forward rather than inward-facing.
Anyway, I've said too much for someone that doesn't know terribly much about racing, I've probably made a fool of myself so over and out. Cheers.
A few relevant points here - and thanks for all the responses.
1) Our series was in existence long before CoDs...
2) The reason one or two series, including BMW E30's and Alfa Trofeo (and our own) plus presumably MX5's do not conform is because within the T & C rules, if adhered to the letter, are not 100% workable.
3) With the Alfa's, they run what the drivers want - knowing more about Alfas than anyone else.
4) Ditto BMW E30's.
5) Having standard dashboards, glove box lids, rear seats, headlinings, original window lifting mechanisms, all original exterior chrome trims etc. are generally petty rules that might be OK if it wasn't for the practicalities of sourcing, (particularly with older and scarcer cars - try and get the hockey stick chrome trims for a Magnette...) fitting decent roll cages etc.
6) You have made the assumption that the T & C rules are totally bullet proof and perfect. They are not and never have been. With Alfa Trofeo, we went through every single word and submitted our suggestions and also the reasoning behind them. Had the Commission accepted them in their entirely, (apart from the repower issue which we left open for a new set of rules), then both Alfa and ERC runners and BMW E30's would have conformed without any real dilution of the intent of T & C.
Although all are entitled to an opinion, I fail to see how standard window winding mechanism or a glovebox lid is so important. We insist on a front passenger seat but why is it so important?
Does anyone think that the average paying spectator sitting up on the bank cares a stuff?
As for running repowers in a separate series, by all means, but let's walk before we run/race. Unless there is a viable grid (which there isn't at the moment), then I am quite happy with them in our series to the agreed limitations as stated earlier. When and only when are there enough around to make it viable will it happen.
AMCO72 - I have give up doing the festivals as much as it is nice to race in front of an appreciative crowd, several of us have opted out having supported the earlier festivals, as scratch races only, with such disparate cars and massive speed differences, is neither racing nor enjoyable and in the wet, distinctly unsafe. Mixing under 3 litre cars, several of which are very standard, small and not very quick, with Muscle cars may appeal to the David & Goliath supporters, but in truth is not very apealing either.
I am not advocating putting a modern engine into an old car. This message board is full of people raving about Zephyr Corvettes, Morraris, V8 Starlets etc, so let's get this in perspective. A Morrari recreation is not exactly going to upset grandad when he spies a Ferrari engine under the bonnet of a car he did his courting in.Quote:
Putting modern gear in old cars makes them a great club car, but it is not for Historic and Classic racing. Imagine the dissappointment of an old guy wondering up to an MG Magnette and saying to his grandson, "this were great old cars son. I remember taking your grandmother for her first date!" Then "Aaaaah what have they done to the engine, the whole cars wrong, oh my heart!"
People have modified cars since day one and sorry, but restoring a totally knackered Magnette to original was never going to be worthwhile, as it was too far gone in all respects and just not worth it, much as I love the Magnette as a standard car.
There are times when people tend to forget that we are a small country with just 4m people and the heritage of NZ has always been to adapt with what is available. Purism is wonderful, but once again, who wants to see a grid of six pure 1100cc Ford Escorts and more to the point, it is not a viable, economic race grid unless race entry fees aren't to skyrocket - and who would pay to watch them anyway?
Several smaller "pure" race groups (super historics stands out here and Clubmans a year or two ago) have been very heavily subsidised by the larger less pure groups so be careful what you wish for... Any grid with less than 15 cars on a regular basis is not contributing much to the financial viability of the meeting.
Ray,
Don't think we don't have an opinion, I'm willing to bet there are some pretty strongly held views here on the subject but the various views were being reasonably well articulated. However, surely there is room for all combinations and permutations, a chrome and polish rodder may not want a rat rod but can appreciate it never the less.
For classics the issue used to be getting enough entries to run a class which I guess is why regulations were initially loosened and that probably still applies at the "lesser" meetings. More prestigious meetings such as the HD Festival meetings can be picky about purity and Goodwood can command a full grid of Ferrari GTOs at 10 million quid each.
For me, the beef is more about modern components and the VCC stance where a car's age is determined by the year of the MAJOR components seems to make sense. The Cosworth YB example is clearly an '80s engine, any car with a YB, whether its a Mk 1 Escort or a Sierra should run with "80s cars, similarly a sequential 'box is probably '90s therefore any car so fitted is a "modern" as far as I am concerned. I am not sure you can legislate about minor components such as shocks and springs, oil or even tyres except as regards size. The unavoidable fact is that the technology is those areas has improved vastly and even your GTO will be running modern oils because to do anything else would be lunacy.
As regards engine transplants, I can see no issue as long as it was done as in period and nobody is trying to pass the result off as some famous car from whenever. Of course a repowered car would never comply with sched K for example and if that were the entry requirement of a particular series or meeting organiser, then so be it.
On the other hand, if a series organiser such as the BMW series draw up regulations too far away from accepted H & C regs, that is their perogative but anyone building a car purely to those regs would be well advised to remember that the world is littered with redundant one make series race cars.
Perfectly well balanced response Howard. Thanks.
Just so that you can see what I am talking about! Thought it was about time we had a pic to lighten the words.
Cruddy interior
Attachment 14491
Even worse bodyshell with the whole of the sills and underfloor area and lower bodywork stuffed. The front was even worse. The engine and brakes were seized. Front suspension tie bars so corroded that they snapped on dismantling.
Attachment 14488
Work in progress last year
Attachment 14489
Ditto
Attachment 14490
Ray, your Magnette looks a very interesting project (I was following it on your site for a while) but it reminds me of a project I did a few years ago. The intent was to built a race sports/saloon and although it was not as radical as yours (the same engine was used), I soon clicked that with the "improvements" I was making (predominantly suspension and brakes) it was not going to find a home in classic racing. It is now a fast road car that I'm very happy with it in that guise but it taught me a lesson of checking to see if my project would have a home before I started planning the work and buying components.
The difference is Roger that mine does have a home if I decided to race it, as our rules allow it - and if yours is Euro, probably your's would also be welcomed.
If that is the case Ray, why do you want a CoD?, its just a club car, you can't call it a classic, nor is it historic, the interior looks nice, (and very modern) but in many ways, its no different in mechanical terms, to the Hot Rod owned by my next door neighbour, his only took 5 years to build, its well engineered, as I don't doubt yours is, but in essence, they are the same type of car.
Roger
I suppose Roger, you are saying something along the lines that what is the difference between a "re-powered classic" and this : http://www.ipernity.com/doc/155265/13271072
Yes, totally correct, the next door neighbours is a Chev coupe, its repowered, early S/B Chev, runs like the devil is after it, put a roll cage in it and its a classic race car, NOT, this might be a extreme view, but what is the difference between what Ray has done, and what he has done, none in my mind, on the face of it both well engineered, but Classic or Historic, Nah.
Roger
Racer Rog you have hit the nail on the head! If you want to built a T bucket, or hot rod, say a '38 Chev Coupe, then go for it, but it will be a 'hot rod'. As a 'hot rod' it can join a Hot Rod Club and meet in parks, go for drives etc. The point is, that the 'hot rod' doesn't try to join the local VCC Club and expect full entrance to all their events and benefits of being a vintage car.
Ray, you mention that your series existed before COD's. Bit of a red herring, as it didn't exist before the MSNZ regulations.
Like many off the series running today, the promoters seek to put their own personal stamp on the series. In their minds it is for the best of reasons, but the result is still an array of invented regulations that almost line up with T & C, when with a bit of effort we could have a coordinated approach for the long term future - pity really!
Howard's last paragraph sums it up.
"On the other hand, if a series organiser such as the BMW series draw up regulations too far away from accepted H & C regs, that is their perogative but anyone building a car purely to those regs would be well advised to remember that the world is littered with redundant one make series race cars."
Fair comment, BUT, the hot rod doesn't want to go on a race track, it is a show pony and therein lies the difference!Quote:
Racer Rog you have hit the nail on the head! If you want to built a T bucket, or hot rod, say a '38 Chev Coupe, then go for it, but it will be a 'hot rod'. As a 'hot rod' it can join a Hot Rod Club and meet in parks, go for drives etc. The point is, that the 'hot rod' doesn't try to join the local VCC Club and expect full entrance to all their events and benefits of being a vintage car.
In my own case I am not after a CoD but the MSNZ rules for T & C have a milder requirement for scrutineering, recognising the safety requirements, particularly cages, which are very much a modern afterthought, and the design of the older cars was somewhat different to today's cars.
In simple terms, there exists a protocol and a structure for pure classic and historic cars, so in that respect, owners of such cars are catered for and catered for very well. I have no problem with that at all.
My point is that there is no coverage for the cars that sit between a modern club car and the genuine classics/historics with the intention of doing some track work, however mild or serious.
To simply state that because it isn't a pure classic, therefore it must be a modern is somewhat missing the point. That is like saying there is soccer and rugby, but rugby league or Aussie rules don't exist, both having their roots in the two former codes, or, one day test cricket, cricket max and 20/20 don't exists either.
The above examples are merely catering for a need that may always be a niche, but they do have support. How many here can't stand the tedium of a 5 day cricket test, but will happily watch a one dayer?
I love the purity of front engined GP cars of the fifties and the formula juniors of that era and even the pre 1970 GP cars, but I also love the way-out saloons and sports racers of the era. I really can't see the problem with accepting that not all want to adhere to the period purity, when so much of the period was anything but pure anyway.
The biggest complaint of modern racing is that in their quest for total parity, they have totally stifled the sport to the extent that it has little or no appeal to the average spectator let alone the enthusiast.
Within the classic fraternity, even at the Festivals, there have been so many one offs and specials that add a bit of interest to the grids. You may think that the "Comic Book Special" is indeed a joke, especially alongside the Coopers and period race cars but I thought it was just great to see it out there.
In a few years time, if we are not careful, we'll see a continued decline of genuine classics simply because they are getting too valuable to race. Take a look at the 1983 Pukekohe Le Mans relay race entry for example, then take a look at what is NOT racing any more on a regular basis, locally.
Examples: Morgan 4/4; Morgan Plus 4; Jaguar XK 120, XK 150, XJ12, E-type; Triumph Spitfire; Fraser-Nash Replica; Daimler SP250; Austin Healey 100/4, 100/6, Healey Sprite; Porsche 356; Triumph TR6, TR5, TR4A, TR3; Lotus Elan; Ferrari Dino; Reliant Scimitar; Lotus Europa - and bear in mind several of these were fielding teams, so there were several examples.
You can argue that scrapping a 1956 Magnette would be less ignominious than repowering it, but I suggest you try and take a look forward. Do you just want E30 BMWs, Ford Escorts, Capris and MGBs to be the only cars on the track, because that is the way it is rapidly heading as parts for them is relatively easy? Heck, you can even get a brand new Heritage MGB bodyshell and retain your existing rego number. Woodsman's axe anyone?
We have NOT seen a spectacular growth of support for Schedule K cars despite the constant pushing for it. We have seen a massive growth in drivers just wanting to go out and have fun, with a minimum of red tape.
Ray - this is good robust debate and we haven't had to resort to abusing each other :)
A couple of issues :
I don't think the point about the hot rod not wanting to race is relevant as a hot rod is a rod hot irrespective of whether it sits inside as a show car, goes on runs, competes at the drags or anything else.
The genuine period "way-out" saloons are catered for under MSNZ's regulations but the problem is when someone wants to recreate a car that is meant to be something that use to exist but doesn't do it properly (Custaxie) or someone wants to create something that never exited but maybe could of. These perhaps could sit under Schedule CR but most Classic meetings don't provide for these cars as they are generally acknowledged as not being true classics.
The "Comic Book Special" is actually a genuine period car built in 1952 : http://bmhspecial.bigpondhosting.com/
Robust debate was always the intention Roger. I always appreciate different views and have been aware since the day I started that it was always going to be contentious. My greatest support was from the MG Car Club, right from day 1 and they are still the keenest of all groups to see the car completed.
As long as people don't throw beer cans at it or key it, I can live with any written or verbal criticism, but everytime I see under the bonnet or inside a so called genuine classic and see Kevlar air boxes, engine management systems, shift lights and yes, even gps video/data recorders, forgive my wry smile!
Terrific debate on this thread and dignified. Hopefully some good things may come of it but just remember?....the world ends on the 21st of this month! Personally, I'm going to write myself off on the 20th and if I find we're all here still on the 22nd I'll continue my build on the Austin Princess. Already half way through with the kevlar bodywork.
Russ; can I respectfully suggest that if you are rebuilding an Austin Princess....you have already written yourself off!
Bruce; forgeting the personal attack last statement of yours, the reason I have referred you to Mike at the MSNZ office is that he is doing the research for me as the office has all the original paperwork submitted, and the email trail of the time. The reason I have not written an earlier reply is that I have been in Wellington since Friday and the two days before that were taken up with family time with a brother home from Spain for the first time in 5 years. Mike will get back to you and/or me with an answer. As I stated in my first reply to your question we obviously try to limit mistakes. If there is a mistake made, obviously no other cars will be given a Schedule RH COD is this configuration.
In future; I would appreciate less of the personal slurs.
I hope the world doesnt end on the 21st December as on the 22nd I am viewing a personal collection of historic race cars!
Great discussion, which I am sure the H&C Commission are following. Ray; your car is looking great, but in my humble opinion please find a better steering wheel??? It's a credit to you
Merry Christmas one and all and stay safe
Raymond Bennett
Russ, Will the car be ready for the Denny Hulme Festival?
Actually Crunch, I think the steering wheel might be from a MG Montego. If it is, then its all in period. Cant see Ray using one from a Toyota Hilux!!!!!!!. Instruments look to be from a MK2 Jaguar, inserted into a dashboard from........Rays fertile mind.
ERC commented
"In a few years time, if we are not careful, we'll see a continued decline of genuine classics simply because they are getting too valuable to race. Take a look at the 1983 Pukekohe Le Mans relay race entry for example, then take a look at what is NOT racing any more on a regular basis, locally.
Examples: Morgan 4/4; Morgan Plus 4; Jaguar XK 120, XK 150, XJ12, E-type; Triumph Spitfire; Fraser-Nash Replica; Daimler SP250; Austin Healey 100/4, 100/6, Healey Sprite; Porsche 356; Triumph TR6, TR5, TR4A, TR3; Lotus Elan; Ferrari Dino; Reliant Scimitar; Lotus Europa - and bear in mind several of these were fielding teams, so there were several examples".
Ray I still look at and enjoy old tapes I have of races like the Porsche Lemans relay and wonder why we cant get those cars out racing again. I dont think that its just because they are valuable I think the modern regulations have had a big impact on it. Many of those cars ran without rollbars and were normal road cars. Once the roll bar regs came in along with the increase in fire safety requirements for overalls etc plus an increase in the cost of competition licences. many of the gentleman racers decided to call it a day. I am not saying the increase in safety requirements is a bad thing but I believe it has had an effect on the number of road going sports cars that we used to see race in large numbers.
Graeme
Interesting topic Ray, I have been for the last 8 years or so been a regular spectator/helper for a few racers in your series. I now have 2 x Datsun 260z 2 seaters as my first one has body mods out side of T&C rules and an opportunity came up to purchase another part finished Targa/race car 260z. This new project did have a repower that also did not fit T&C so I am in the process of correcting the drive train issues and finish the assembly.
What I find interesting is how even MSNZ own rules have changed. I recall the T&C rules stated that body parts could be substituted for alternative material if the original parts where NLA (no longer available). However now in manual 35 this has been removed and body must be of the material as supplied at manufacturing. So does this mean cars that once conformed to T&C with fibre glass guards as original steel items are unavailable then today that car is now illegal under T&C?
The way I see it/read the regs schedule k is there for standard production cars (that is 100% as they were made with no option/catalogue parts allow to be added) or for the, let me state that again, for "the" 100% period race car as it was as it should be. So using your escort example Ray, a schedule k escort 1300 sport will be as it left the factory no mods no exceptions or it must be "the" one and only "Hannu Mikkola" winning car. Anything else fits under T&C no exception. Or am I reading it wrong?
The current T&C rules are clear allow for period mods and the use of period parts for those that want to race a modify classic. I personally believe schedule CR needs room for saloons, for those that want to build a replica of "Hannu Mikkola" winning escort, or a retrospective special of a 1970 formula Ford chassis with a Toyota 3k engine or Mazda 10a rotary or a rover v8...someone could have build these in period or did, so why not an MG with a V8 using period chassis and engine how is that different to the single seater retrospective special? Or am I missing something there too?
For me I like the series Ray runs, different marques have good clean racing and a handicap grid can aid in any performance advantage a V8 MG has over a pinto power mk2 escort. I hope that one day I can finish my track 260z and be allowed to join such a grid/series. In the mean time I wait for room in a certain fabricators shed/hoist to get me car there to sort out my installation of a stock drive line ;)
Regards
Mike Lucas
We look forward to seeing you Mike. People have already made representations on your behalf! Good post. My car is now off the hoist and home as I try to finish off a small mountain of jobs...
A good point about fibreglass panels. As soon as I can, I'll revert to getting fibreglass front wings done for mine, as the ones I have are now just too scarce to risk on road or track. Ditto boot and bonnet lid. I have advertised for a spare bonnet and so far have only been offered two - both from the other side of the world and not exactly cheap, even without the cost of packaging, shipping and insurance, which is also a major factor when we are located so far from Europe.
As you point out, we are pragmatic about such things for very sound reasons - scarcity of originals. Once again, easy for an MGB or a Mini, not so easy for many other makes.
Well spotted. It is indeed an MG Montegeo wheel because the steering column and switches and wiper motor and delay unit are also Montego, and the column includes hazard flashers and switch. The speedo and rev counter are in fact MGB, the rev counter has been converted for a V8 and the instruments are period Smiths - of course. I'll happily move to a woodrim wheel when finances allow - and I can find one that fits!
The dash follows the shape of the original but is completely home made, as the original Magnette didn't have a rev counter or oil temperature gauge - and I can't stand "pod" or bolt on additions, so the original dash shape was simply stretched to incorporate the tacho and oil pressure gauge. Mixing mahogany and burr walnut never worked for me so it is now all burr walnut, with a padded dash top which is much safer than highly reflective polished wood.
If you have studied ergonomics at all, you'll also know that both MGBs and Aston Martins have a fatal design flaw - with hands at a quarter to three, you can't see the essential instruments... When you are doing a project like this, it seems rather pointless replicating the mistakes of the past when it is is so much easier to make improvements that are sympathetic to the whole car, hence incorporating a fan overrride switch and fuel pump switches with warning lights and a warning light for a low fuel level.
All those of us who ran Minis in our youth, went out and bought a stage 1 or 2 cylinder head, bolted twin carbs or a Weber, a LCB exhaust, added an oil cooler, dumped the grotty seats and fitted Corbeau or something similar and fitted a set of Cosmics, Dunlop or even Minilite wheels and fitted a straight through exhaust and an alloy rocker cover. Most also added a rev counter, possibly with an after market dash. Keeping a Mini bog standard just wasn't done and we accept all those mods today as period.
Hot rod? Customised? Call it what you will, but there is nothing that couldn't have been done in period and in that respect, I maintain it is rather more period than many cars we see out there.
Good debate - still - and hopefuly more will join in.