I agree John, It fills me with dread to think restored drifting cars will perhaps command premium prices in 30 years as desirable collectables.
Bruce.
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You know, Bruce, I had never thought of that. Then again I never filled my garage with 120Y Coupes.Then again , its not worth the emotion thinking this for the next 30 years-you will have all that time with the Firebird- and Mustang -to fill you with exquisite feelings
Better get used to the idea Bruce - my son, who is 25 has what he calls a classic car - it's a mid-80s Mazda 323 turbo. He loves coming out to the classic car and motorbike meetings with me but he drools over Japanese cars. He was fizzing about the TKR Primera at the recent Hulme Festival.
What is nostalgia - surely the love of cars (and other things) that you lusted after back in the day. (Usually before you could afford them!).
The BOAC Fahey Mustang?
That is an awkward one as the car still exists in PDL electric blue form, which makes a case for dead nuts replicas of early forms of several cars that evolved or changed class over the years, there seems to be a number of knockers in & around motorsport classic circles that dont want this sort of thing to happen, but are quite happy to have the originals parade around in funeral procession style, but actually race or inadvertently bump into one another, heaven forbid [ or should it be welcome in!]
That`s right Jac Mac, my ex USA 68 Camaro A Sedan which I imported to run in HMC was originally built as a race car in 1975 as per its original SCCA log book, and whilst it wasn`t a `name' driver car, it still has racing history throughtout the US, and is only 5 - 6 years newer than some of the period cars here in NZ that other owners would rather just parade around in. Same can be said for Nigel MacDonald who bought the ex Red Dawson Shelby back from the Bowdens to run in HMC, which he did with us at the Denny Hulme Festival. These cars were built to race, so get them out and do some skids. Yes it`s important to preserve historic things, but really we are only caretakers for the next bugger to own it, and life isn`t a rehearsal, so get them out for yourselves and everyone else to enjoy!
These two guys have hit the nail on the head. As 'custodian' of one of these 'super valuable' historic racing saloons, I cant see any point in going out, between races, and 'demonstrating' our cars to a public audience who frankly want to see, and hear them how they used to be. Trundling along at 100 k's I'm afraid is just not going to do the business.
We may, as Jacmac says, inadvertently 'bump' into one another, but we would try VERY hard not to........ YES....... To say that most of these cars are original is being a little economical with the truth. The Amco Mini has been rolled, boled and arsholed during its racing life, and it shows. Just look at the crinkly old floor and battered engine bay. Some of these machines have had complete body replacements, as in the old days it was easier to find a replacement body and fit parts to it, rather than repair what is damaged. After the contact with the concrete wall at the festival, the Mini has gone to a panel beater who actually knows how to panel beat, rather than just replace panels. Might not look as pristine as a new panel but much more satisfying.
Most of these old stagers were as rough as guts when they were built, quite unlike the concours examples we are seeing appear now,
and after spending zillions of dollars getting them up and running again, owners are of course reluctant to get them 'scratched'. But here you are loosing site of what they are, and why they were constructed in the first place. To actually get them out on the track and give them a bloody good workout is very satisfying, knowing you are sitting in the cabin, looking out the windscreen that its original owner did.
Some folk say they are too valuable to race. Why..........they might look smart sitting quietly in a display area or, heaven forbid, in a museum, but that, I think is a sad end to a creation that gave pleasure to people all those years ago, and is what those same people want to see again.
And the valuation thing. How do you put a value on an old race car. Is it worth what someone paid to have it restored, plus a premium, or is it worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.......willing seller, willing buyer. We have all heard stories about wealthy business men, who flick out their check-books and invite you to fill in the blanks......yeh right.
To get a large group of these machines together one day would be fantastic. We do have a 'problem' in NZ in that we are two islands divide by a stretch of water, and these two islands seem to have gone their own separate ways when it comes to motorsport. But hey, us owners of these super valuable cars have tons of money, travel the length and breadth of NZ will be no problem. Will it?????
You have raised an issue that appeared in March 2012 Octane magazine, "To conserve or to restore?".
Part of the article quotes Doug Nye (precis) "Cars are an assemblage of consumables, from brake pads to cranks, spark plugs to in some cases, bodywork and crankcase" etc. He also postulates that unlike the owner of a painting, by enjoying the use of your car, you are effectively consuming your possession.
Your choice to lock it away, display it, cruise around in convoy at 100kph or race it. I for one am happy enough to see (and hear) the cars in action. I am happy to make parade time available at any race meeting I run for any group who wants to cruise around the track at lunchtime behind a safety car, but going any quicker raises issues with the Steward and MSNZ's rules for issuing a permit, where even convoy runs have to be specified.
As an arena, you'd really only want a higher profile event where the owners of such cars can then mix and mingle throughout the meeting and show the public. Racing (even low key) would only come about if the numbers are there to justify grid time which has to be paid for; cars (and drivers) would be subjected to the normal criteria for any race meeting.
What the well heeled in Europe are doing, is to have a replica built then race the replica, the Drummers Auto Union is said to be just that. The issues will surface later in time when two cars appear as being both the same car.Greed and quick profits will overcome common decency.
John, I have re-read my post above, and NOWHERE does it mention having fun!!!!!!!!!! Or indeed ALLUDING to having fun.
Sorry to be so pedantic, but I sure as hell wasnt having FUN when that bloody wall jumped out and devoured large chunks of my precious.....VALUABLE Historic Race car.
When the paramedics arrived to drag me from the smoking wreck, they thouight I was off my trolley, as I was raving on about the damage to the car. Clearly I had had a serious BUMP on the head rendering me temporarily insane. The very kind lady asked me how I was as she was concerned about my well-being. I said to her...'stuff MY well-being, look at the f###ing car'.
She managed to calm me down sufficiently to get me into the back seat of her vehicle, where I sat like a stunned mullet contemplating, not my navel, but my incompetance behind the wheel. How was I going to face my No1 driver and tell him the bad news. She assured me that cars can be fixed, but sometimes bodies are a bit more difficult. She was infuriatingly calm about the whole episode and I felt like wringing her neck!!!!!
No, she was very professional about it all. Aren't we lucky to have such a service at out tracks. Out on the main road I would probably have flung myself under a truck and ended it all.
But there we are. .......owning these 'valuable' cars what do you do. Stick em in a shed with a cover over them, or get them out and shoot the breeze, even if every now and then disaster takes over. If I was a car, I know which I would prefer. If I was a car I wouldn't be writing this......would I ??????????
There is another issue beneath all this talk of ' demonstration/procession ' type event, the cross section of drivers and their respective skill levels becomes wider, you get those who wish to drive around with something like 75% effort and are just there to enjoy driving the car at higher, but not on the limit type speeds, and those who are there to race, one of the frequent comments you will hear from drivers of faster cars is that the slower [ cars & drivers ] tend to swap lines and wander around on the track rather than maintain their lines/position & often misjudge the closing rate of a faster car. I think you have to come to terms with either your there to race or not. Those that are actually racing at somewhere near the limit will usually find a defined racing line around the circuit, those driving at something like the 75% level will find they can wander all over the place and end up becoming mobile chicanes to the faster cars/drivers.
Wow, some seem to get the wrong end of the stick entirely. It seems to me that there will be the opportunity to see the cars on the track, making plenty of noise and doing some skids, but NOT banging into each other, or they won't be brought to the track at all because there is no invitation or place to be. (arena)
Why 100 K ? I was told I couldn't go in the noon parade as it was a "high speed" display, yet the cars in the later afternoon "demos' were well going over 200 kph.
Last time I looked I couldn't find any acid dipped '69 Firebird Trans Am body panels on Trademe . And damn straight I don't want it banged up.
Gerald, you banged the Mini, and packed it all in. Steve, I recall how upset you were that your Camaro was damaged, and rightly so. But there were grids of 40+ privateer Camaros in many T/A races. Hundreds were raced if not thousands. 6 factory backed 69 Firebirds raced.
Who is going to pay for new alloy fenders flares on the PDL Mustangs, or the Sidchrome, How about the Nazer Victor ? None of those on trademe either. I'm sure Tony Boyden won't be happy if his beautiful Camaro gets wrinkled.
It's all easy when it someone else's car, and you want to see them out there getting wild. You want me to race the Coppins car, I'll build one of those 600 hp race engines like the Aussies run. (history be damned) Might as well run a replica, but I'm not well healed, and not in Europe.
I'm looking at getting the cars out there. Isn't that what we want ?
McKechnievich, how much is a new rear quarter for a 68 Monaro ? and where do you get them ?
Gerald- a very touching piece,especially as I saw that wall jump out in front of you, happened right in front of me, think I even saw your glasses fly off- no double tie downs there. We must do this for fun, as we dont get money for it., However you have not answered my question.
I've read this thread with interest. It is a subject I can relate to.
I decided to sit on my hands and bite my tongue but Bruce302, as he does often, has eloquently stated more or less exactly what I was thinking. Owners of historic cars or any car for that matter are exactly that, owners. That gives them the right to do exactly what they want with that car. Park it under a tree, park it in a barn, restore and park it in a museum, restore and race it or even park it in a concrete barrier. Bottom line nobody has the right to 'guilt' anyone into doing anything other than what they want or can afford to with a car they own.
Should the day come I own a restored piece of racing history will I put it on the track and race it. No. If I could afford to go racing I'd build a racing car and would have done it 30 years ago. Fact is I could only afford to do it once, bend it and it stays bent. The point is not everyone can afford to do it all. Good on you if you can but shame on you for criticising those who can't.
Bruce 302, clearly if I had read your post more carefully I would not have got the wrong end of the stick. Any 'demonstration' laps that I have seen have been behind the pace car at a very limited speed. You are obviously thinking along the lines of the Can Am cars at the Festival, where they had 'claytons' race........racing but not racing, and well spread out so there was no chance of contact.
But things can also happen where there is no contact between cars and things just go wrong for whatever reason. In my case it was probably old age, but when you are driving at 200kph, a slight error, a slight malfunction and things happen very quickly, and walls are very unforgiving.
And frankly whats the difference in repairing the replica as to repairing the real thing, which MAY not have its original panels anyway. You still have to find replacement panels or repair the damaged ones.
Most race cars carry scares from battles fought. It is part of their history, that is why we are beating out the Mini rather than replacing, which with a Mini is dead easy as I'm sure you can appreciate.
I suppose the main thing here is each owners enterpretation of what they want with their car. Value? well how much is a F5000 to buy these days, let alone run one. Enjoyment? it`s all right mate all the others will be back soon. History? yeah the longer you keep it the more historic it becomes.Satisfaction? yours or other like minded people. Bruce, I asked Craig Stacey at the Festival if he would consider selling me the Nazer Victor so I could get it going again for such events as we`re talking about here. He declined as he wants to do just that himself. When I leave this world, I don`t want to have a dribble stained bib around my neck wondering why my Triumph Stag wheels didn`t fit my Triumph Herald, or why didn`t I get my cheesecutter hat drycleaned more often. Hell no, I want to go out knowing that I`ve enjoyed myself, have helped others along the way, and can chuckle to myself `man, what a ride...........
couple more colours (got a photo of her in pink/purple somewhere)
Just see you Steve, with your Magenta walker all crossed up scarpering out of the kitchen.
Actually put a couple more bits together on old girl, time and money and not actually in that order, but it will happen.
Rod- what track and when is the Fahey 104 Mustang? That looks like my Mini Cooper S number 51 (my Number) in the background
Aussie trip John.
Odds are that with all the two tone Minis, there had to be more than one with 51 on the side.
John, to reply to your question. I am a danger to shipping out there, and while I got away without hitting anyone this time, who knows, next time might be different, and bruce302's worst nightmare might come true!!
SO........plain 1, purl 1..............bedsox anyone?
Bruceshvilli- have just got a slightly used, low rust right rear quarter. Price confidential as publication may affect the market value of them.If I bought it, it was affordable
I figure if you have one, then you wont need one.
I am grateful to Steve H for drawing a line in the sand and wanting to provide something different for you , me and the others, to let the public see the icons from the past still run and not museum pieces .
My Monaro when restored will not be a pristine over restored work of art.It is quite simply the car that I fell in love with in 1969 and I will never have to opportunity to own anything like this EVER again.. we wont even discuss that I have looked for this car to OWN for 43 years. Not an impulse buy just to be a big noter.
I am on the same side of the fence as Bruce in regards looking after my car and not wanting it banged.
I can always do skids in the Smurf Coupe.
Hi everyone. I'm the JD with the Halliday Escort and the race Aston Zagato (rebuild finished just last week, and will be at the Leadfoot).
Thanks to Steve for promoting this discussion here and happy to share my own thoughts. Firstly, I have to admit to being influenced by how the UK and Europe get their historic cars out on the tracks, competing in a wide variety of series. It's relatively easy for them of course, with literally hundreds (probably thousands) of historic saloons running on circuits from Mondello in Ireland, to Snetterton in the UK, and all points in between. I fully understand that the challenges here are quite different, but there are some interesting things that might be relevant.
1. How people run historics there is entirely up to the series organisers; they decide what cars will run. If the owners don't like the series, they go elsewhere. It's a common misconception that FiA/HtP predominates there. It doesn't, and the MSA does not dictate documentation or regulations for historic motorsport, other than the Historic Rally Championship (which is an FiA event anyway). Goodwood, U2C, Gentlemen Drivers, Heritage GT etc etc, all run their own series, and papers not required and non existent. There are races for historics with FiA papers only, but they are usually one of a number of races at a meeting (eg, I ran a Group C car in support races for FiA ETC and F3 championship races, but we had nothing to do with the FiA; very simply, the meeting organisers could pick and choose who came to support, and they chose us). The MSA provides governance and safety parameters for all motorsport. Quite why MNZ here wants to get involved in dictating (to my mind, completely misguided and ultimately pointless) T&C and CoD regimes, is beyond me. However, that's not for this forum (sorry Steve, will desist).
2. The emphasis is on getting cars that ran together in period together. That means Minis, Alfas and Escorts with Falcons, Camaros and Mustangs. The Anglo American series that ran there in the 80s and 90s was a huge success, and entirely self administered. I have to admit to being disappointed at the curious aversion that some people have here to seeing that sort of racing which is obviously entertaining and will bring crowds back. Rather than splitting the U3L grid off when there are enough cars, wouldn't it be better to just have two grids separated only on times? The best fun I ever had racing was being on track with Andy Rouse in his epically wild Camaro, surrounded by a gaggle of British saloons heading into the Old hairpin at Donington.If you can't learn to race with anything other than identical iron around you, you probably shouldn't be racing at all; ask Paul Radisich, Foggy or Andy Booth.
3. Everyone needs to get over the slicks thing. As I've tried on countless occasions to explain, there are no (and I mean a very big NO, so please don't point me in the direction of some tyre manufacturer or other, as I have spoken to very single one), 50+ profile DOT tyres that will fit on my period correct (bought at some expense) minilites. I run Kumhos, and they are fine, but they look daft on my rears as they are 45 profile (I've got 50s on the front, but they are a stretch as I can't get the correct width). I can get period correct slicks and groove them and the car will look as it should do. Someone please explain what the problem is, as I haven't heard a single rational explanation yet. It certainly isn't performance, as a six lap race at HD is hardly going to push the envelope on cold tyres. "Bonkers" was the word used by my man at Avon performace tyres in the UK.
4. I think some of the engineering of cars here is exceptional. Paul McCarthy's Escort is superb (and driven well). It's his choice as to how he builds it, and series organsiers will make their own decisions about whether they want his car and others like it to enter. Ironically, he'd be in big demand in the UK in series like the Heritage GTs. The same goes for the front running cars in Arrows, and without Ray Green, I have to wonder where many of the cars would go. The point I think I'm making is that there has been no compelling reason up to now for owners of period cars to engineer them 'backwards'. Why put on four pot girlings, small SUs, unreliable drivetrains and lever arm suspension and sit at the back of the grid, when you can buy off the shelf reliable performance parts? Of course it's a shame that so many of the period cars have disappeared or been compromised with non period mods, but that's the way it has been here, and it has resulted in some epically good cars.
Times are changing as historic motorsport is the fastest growing branch of our sport world wide. Part of it is driven by money of course and there's no doubt that genuine period race cars fetch serious money. Not only that, but any car rebuilt to period standards and specs (and that is where FiA/HtP papers have come into their own) will fetch equally eye watering amounts. Whether we like it or not, that's a fact, and maybe that alone will prompt rebuilt cars to head towards the period correct specs...maybe.
Hats off to all pushing the historic scene here; Steve, Chris and Tony at HD, Arthur Vowles and Dale Mathers and all the owners. We don't have to do it, but it's bloody good fun and racing here in NZ is certainly that.
JD......I'm glad someone else on this forum is as puzzled as we are about the use of slicks, as in paragraph 3 of your post. If you have read some of my other posts you will see that I am continually asking the question.....what is the problem with slicks. Your car and ours and several others ran with these things in their day. The suspensions were designed for them, the wheels made for them, and like you we cannot get ANY decent dot rated tyres to fit our 10 inch rims.
All tyres are expensive, so that cant be an objection, and as to a performance advantage, well you hit the nail on the head when you say the heat required for the slicks to operate at their optimum, is hardly an issue in a 6-8 lap race.
Thank you for a thoughtful and comprehensive piece of writing, and I'm glad someone is on the same page as us.
I will be interested in the replys we get.
I have the utmost respect for the above two gentleman as drivers, car owners and also being able to promote their ideals.
We bent over backwards to allow John's car into the ERC series, even though it is in most respects, rather more of a race car than a road car. The reason for allowing it to run is simply that there was then, logically, nowhere else for it to run!
Our series has always been promoted as a series for cars effectively to WoF standards, and that therefore includes DoT rated tyres. Some have pushed the envelope a bit too far, but until such times as grids are over subscribed, far better they have a sand pit to play in.
In my very humble opinion, the major difference between a road car and a race car is not stripping out the interior, installing a miniature of the Eiffel Tower and souping up the engine, but the tyres, as they are NOT able to be used on the road. Simple as that. Right from the day I drew up the original rules, I was also aware that there were many Targa cars that wanted some race action and made sure that we could cope. Gordon Burr's ex-Proctor Escort (Ford V8) is the perfect example. It was road registered. I am not sure that there is a compelling case to change our stance as I suspect ther would be a rush from those with deeper pockets to go out and buy another set of rims and tyres for some sort of temporary advantage, nullified immediately by a shift in the handicap.
We need entry level race groups. We have them.
JD also made the quote after the Auckland driver's meeting to thrash out T & C that is now my mantra, regarding repowers (with certain limitations). "If it looks like an Escort, it probably is an Escort."
What is under the skin is indeed up to series organisers and race promoters and has nothing whatever to do with MSNZ, and very little to do with the H & C commission either. If it isn't schedule K, it is not really your problem. (Crunch already knows that is my opinion!)
HMC has its rules. End of story. We have our rules. End of Story. Ditto BMW & Alfa. As John points out, if those series rules don't work, the series' fall over. Couldn't be simpler.
Allowing people to run slicks (without a very good reason, such as John's) changes the whole ethos of the series, which was always aimed at the drive to the meeting, empty the boot, stick on the numbers race brigade.
Over the years, most have elected to use trailers (myself included) as it is cheaper overall to tow the car than to pay all the various charges, including that high ACC content, an annual authority card, WoF, insurance etc for 200-300kms a year.
John's car is a classic case of when there is a more appropriate arena, he will probably move to it, though we'd never refuse his participation in the ERC group. One of the reasons for that is that we have never had a complaint from another driver - and I have a soft spot for Aston Martins...
So there we have it. If you cant get a WOF with the tyre for road use then we cant use them on the track. Well I can tell you that several [a lot/most of ] the U3L cars had tyres that although they were dot rated, they were NOT RECOMMENDED FOR ROAD USE.
Why, because as I have said before, they are thinly disguised slicks and cant manage anything more that a DAMP road. Not a big problem on the race track, but a major one out on the highway.
Ray you summed it up when you said that most [all ? ] of the competitors in the ERC series trailer their cars to the track for all the reasons you say, PLUS in the event of a major malfunction you can get them home again. Events like classic trials should be ok with WOF's and being driven to and from the track with their dot rated tyres, but all these other machine are to all intents and purposes RACE cars, and should be dealt with accordingly.
I have bought the matter of the Amco Mini up with you before, as we both know it is not, and never has been a road car. Your reply to me, and I have it front of me, is that it is entirely within the spirit of the meeting, and please hurry back.!!!!!! Now I couldnt have a more welcoming invitation than that, could I.
John, who are you referring to when you say 'not an impulse buy just to be a big noter'?
Thanks Gerald. Yes, you and you know who, are always welcome. The U3L group run to their own rules regarding tyres but as I understand it, to T & C rules.
There are in fact quite a few ERC cars still driven to the event - and not just up the road either. I see quite a few heading north after the events. As an entry level series, drivers can graduate from Classic Trials, seamlessly, as budget and experience dictates.
Drivers with limited or no track experience who may want to shake down a muscle car prior to an HMC run, or any other sports, saloon, GT, can do so at their own pace and with no expectations of going too fast. (They have a speed bar anyway). An ideal stepping stone or transition to racing.
I better get this thing in the garage together so John can come and run around with me. The more I read the more I wonder were I will run it. 1 roll cage ?. 2 slicks, never had anything else. 3 it has no inside except alloy panels. 4 only glass in windscreen, plastic elsewhere. 5 no muffler. 6 no radio. 7 no heater. 8 owner has no money but has a trailer.
I only suggested DOT or period correct cross-plies because I'd originally suggested a 1973 cut-off date, and most of the cars I'd listed would have been built and raced in period on treaded tyres. Then again, in period, what actually constituted a slick tyre? Was any racing-only tyre that was not for road use considered a slick? Or did it have to be completed free of any tread to be considered a slick?
Here is a photo of Allan Moffats Mustang at Pukekohe in 1972. Note the tyre next to the car. This is a Goodyear Bluestreak tyre, which is still being produced today for historic racing. This tyre has always labelled for competition use only, therefore, its not a DOT tyre. This was the ultimate in racing tyres at the time. Was this considered a slick tyre in 1972? This seems to be what most cars were fitted with at the time, hence my suggestion tyres by either period correct cross-plies such as this, or DOT tyres.
Attachment 16495
Then again, if as Bruce suggested, you're opening the cut-off date right up to allow '70s and '80s Sports Sedans, OSCA, ShellSport etc which were all built for and raced on slicks, then obviously anyone who wants to fit slicks, could do.
John Weston in Tauranga a bit of a rascal
There has been a lot of talk on this thread about restored race cars, where, how, and even IF they should be 'raced'. Everyone has their opinion, and they have a right to that opinion, but fortunately there are still a lot of restorers out there who are happy, some very happy to give their precious machines a good workout on the track, in the company of others.
I think this is the time and place to quote Mr Justice Otton, the presiding judge in the 'Old Number One Bentley' court case...........
'Continuous history is the basis for evaluating a classic car; the car has a life of it's own that transcends the sum of it's parts, and this is surely how it should be.
A motor car is not a painting or a piece of antique furniture that you put in your house. It is a functional piece of machinery to be driven and enjoyed, and then repaired when it breaks, and driven again.
The motor car is a product of the machine age, not the craft age. The obsession in certain quarters with 'all matching numbers', is to loose the sense of what a motor car is, and risk consigning them to mothballs and museums. The thought upper most in your mind when out driving should NOT be that the car is loosing value if you break the engine'.
Amen to that.........
Well put Gerald, my father in law is in the process of whittling down his quite large collection of assorted cars and motorbikes - 22 of his motorbikes are going through Webbs Auctions this Sunday - and many of his cars haven`t seen the light of day for 20 odd years. He has a few favourites that he gets about in, but as much as he has enjoyed `owning' them, the next owner is no doubt going to enjoy `driving them.' This scenario is relevant to the various views on this thread.