Gee, there are some great old bangers in those pics above, I love the open cars of that vintage.
Here is a picture I found of the old Levin race track.
Attachment 66846
Printable View
Gee, there are some great old bangers in those pics above, I love the open cars of that vintage.
Here is a picture I found of the old Levin race track.
Attachment 66846
Ray,
I have been delayed with my inputs because I have been reading your wonderful detailed writings of travelling around the States. Thankyou for all the good information, better than any travel guide.
Paul, I agree about these race cars from this era. Magnificent machines and I will always remember watching Len Southward drive Mr. Muldoon around Pukekohe before the 1976 NZGP. in his 1915 Stutz. # 5.
Attachment 66853
KH photo.
Attachment 66854
Ken H.
Glad to have you join in, Ken...Quote:
Originally posted by khyndart in CA
Ray,
I have been delayed with my inputs because I have been reading your wonderful detailed writings of travelling around the States. Thankyou for all the good information, better than any travel guide.....
The best part is the first trip, in which my late wife's diary features. She had different views to me on many of the things we saw, such a shame she couldn't make the later journeys.
It's no quick read, though, as I'm sure you realise. I think I'm up to 3,500 photos and maps so far. Seventeen circuits plus bits of the Targa Florio and Mille Miglia.
With regard to this San Diego circuit, I have a friend who lives there in San Diego and who I visited on the second trip. He used to have a big part in the Nissan team in the US, though he came from Adelaide. I'm sure he doesn't know about this track.
The 1915 field description;
With the driver and his "Mechanician"
Attachment 66856
Attachment 66857
Famous American driver Barney Oldfield rounding the corner onto Rosecrans in his Maxwell # 14.
Attachment 66860
1915.Heading along Rosecrans. Note the power poles and spectator parking !
Attachment 66859
1915. Eddie Rickenbacher, who later went on to be a famous pilot and air ace, driving his Peugeot down the straight completing another lap. (Note the position of the pole and the spectators !)
( Were the power lines moved away for the event and there was not enough time to move the pole ?
All opinions are welcome !) They were two brave / stupid spectators !
( Ken H..)
They certainly knew how to throw up grandstands those days...
In 1915 spectator safety was not a top priority as seen in this image showing # 19 Duesenberg powering through the turn going up Chatsworth Blvd.
Attachment 66872
Here an MGB powers through the same corner in this 2019 photo.
Attachment 66873
(Ken H..)
1915. The illustrious Barney Oldfield with the usual cigar clenched between his teeth, driving his Maxwell down Canon St.
His mechanician, George Hill, is hanging on but they seem to be enjoying themselves.
(Note the horses off to the right with their harnesses set up to grade the track surface. The track was surfaced with disintegrated granite. DG. )
Attachment 66886
(Ken H..)
We call that 'decomposed granite' here, Ken...
Wonderful stuff, smooths out nicely and provides a good slippery surface.
Ray,
I got my 1915 DG input from this;
Attachment 66887
I see... 'as DG was called back then.'
So maybe they now call it 'decomposed granite' as I'm used to.
This is all pretty good stuff, Ken, can you keep it coming?
The three Peugeot entered in the race all had engine failures due to broken connecting rods which may have been due to oil supply issues during the long climbs on the course compared to racing at Indianapolis and Savannah etc. on flat tracks.
Due to the war in Europe it was hard / impossible to get replacement parts. One of the drivers, Bob Burman, made arrangements to have his own replacement engine built by his friend, Harry Miller after this event.
Attachment 66893
Bob Burman at the 1915 start with mechanician Eric Schrader in Peugeot # 6.
Attachment 66894
After 7 laps of the 6 mile course the Burman Peugeot was out with a broken connecting rod. Burman and Schrader checking the damage.
(Excuse what may be a dumb question but what did this machine use for brakes ?)
Attachment 66895
Another Peugeot # 9 out with broken connecting rod.
( Judging by the hats the ladies got well dressed up for this racing occasion in San Diego. ( Jan. 9th. 1915.)
(Ken H..)
The Peugeots came from racing in Europe which were not flat courses. As you say Ken it sounds like a lubrication issue, but for me it doesn't stack up to say the hills were causal. Maybe the mechanician had a role in pumping oil as they did for fuel tank pressure? I'm now on the hunt for info! Keep them coming please.
Brakes, rear only, just like my one. I could post a pic, but would be OT.
Rhys,
Why was the braking to the rear wheels only on such a large machine ?
Ken
Simple...
4-wheel brakes were yet to be developed.
Oh yes, there were hills...
https://i.postimg.cc/HsNtZDry/0622-06-longstraight.jpg
This is the 5-mile straight on the circuit on which these cars made their successful debut. And this...
https://i.postimg.cc/fT1x7cP7/0622-14-hills.jpg
...is a part of the return leg on that circuit. Hills were not steep, but they were there, and there was plenty of sustained speed.
These photos are going up tonight in the next episode of my trip thread. My last day in Europe.
It was probably a whole lot more windy when they raced there too!
Brakes, check this out! http://www.grandprixhistory.org/peug1912.htm
Perhaps the Americans took them off because they show on the site I have copied. It doesn't give the year though for the pics showing brakes, although does say 1912 .
Lubrication; reading more I discover they were dry sump engines, front and rear mains were roller bearings, and the centre one a double row ball bearing. It doesn't give any clues to big ends.
Another link https://primotipo.com/2015/12/11/191...y-its-engines/
I went through all that stuff and saw no front brakes...
A transmission brake and, in the case of the EX3 and L76 models, external contracting rear brakes. Internal expanding rears came on the 3-litre models built from the end of 1913.
Windy? I don't see the relevance.Quote:
Originally posted by Oldfart
It was probably a whole lot more windy when they raced there too!
OK, on Grandprixhistory link I posted, first photo after the one of Zuccarelli at the drawing board, 4 cars lined up, if those aren't front brakes then they carried pie plates around :)
Next photo #5 front brakes?
Small photos at the bottom, car #5 one with OS on a signboard, maybe at Coupe de La Sarthe (which we now know as Circuit Le Mans) front brakes?
Next one, possibly same corner but exit, car 19 brakes?
Last photo, side on, brakes?
I guess they could be later photos than the site says, but they tally with the entry list.
There is so much conflicting information on this topic though it's very hard to make any definitive statement I believe, without any chance of being disagreed with.
According to "Blue Blood" by Serge Bellu Peugeot used front brakes in 1914 and those cars went to the US.
Ken, sent you a message.
"Winding" perhaps.
All the pictures with front brakes are the 1914 models...
Right click on the photo of the four cars lined up and click on 'inspect element' and you'll see in the title to the photo there that it's the 1914 Peugeot team.
Then you'll see that the front of these cars is narrower than the ones from the 1913 races, and the American races at San Diego and elsewhere as shown by Ken.
These roads have not changed signficantly, other than being sealed.Quote:
Originally posted by Allan
"Winding" perhaps.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9mcTulLtN...1913FsmNEW.png
Except, of course, at places where modern 'incursions' have re-routed them or cut them short. This has happened at the 'sharp' end of the Amiens circuit, which you can check on Google Earth, working NW from Boves.
Whatever the braking it must have been scary coming down the 2 mile Rosecrans straight at speeds approaching 100 MPH and making the first corner to go up the hill back in 1915.
I have a special memory of rear wheel brakes when my mate took me to the Mount in his early all drum Mini and on the way home over the Kaimas it was raining and every time he braked the car went all over the road so we stopped and put two small vise grips on the front brake hoses and with me applying some handbrake to take up the rear brake adjustment we made it back in time for him to help his dad with the milking ! (The brakes worked great'.)
Ken H
Tyre technology at the time would have been no help either...
Brave men.
Here is a listing of components on the 1915 race cars. (Even with TIRE brands !)
Attachment 66913
Ken H
I just had to add to the Peugeot brake questions and put this information in.
" "There were two EX3 type 1913 Grand Prix Peugeots in the U.S. after May 1914. Peugeot sent the two cars (i.e. Goux's and Boillot's) over for the 1914 Indianapolis 500, and sold them both after the race. One went to Kauffman and the other was purchased by Erbes." ( From John Glenn Printz )
The Bob Burman (Erbes) Peugeot # 9 at San Diego in 1915 was the # 7 car that French driver Georges Boillot drove at the 1914 Indianapolis which was a 1913 EX3 Peugeot with an L56 engine..
This photo clearly shows only a brake drum at the rear which was a feature to come back and haunt the racing fraternity in 1916.
Attachment 66914
In 1914 this ($ 7 million beauty ) was built by Peugeot and had drum brakes all around.
Attachment 66915
This Bonhams site has some good Peugeot information from that period.
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24733/lot/408/
( Ken H)
As quoted from the above site;
" In January 1915 Bob Burman destroyed the engine of his Peugeot L56 in a race at Point Loma (San Diego), California. Peugeot declined on account of the war to provide a replacement. Burman turned to Harry Miller in Los Angeles, then the ranking genius in racing engine carburetion, not only to repair the bits and pieces of his shattered Peugeot but to configure it to the new 300 cubic inch limitation.
In the process of doing the almost-impossible – delivering a competitive 300 cubic inch engine to Burman in time for Indianapolis – Miller and Fred Offenhauser succeeded also in examining the innermost workings of the Peugeot L56. A 50-year history of Miller, Offenhauser and Meyer-Drake dual overhead camshaft engines followed."
Some more information from various sources regarding Bob Burman and his 1913 Peugeot with a mostly new engine.
" The AAA contest board was reducing the displacement rule to 300 cu. in., and Burman was in a quandary. He took the car to Harry Miller’s shop in Los Angeles. Reportedly, he paid $4000 (probably more than he paid for the car to begin with) for a rebuild to meet the new displacement rule. A new engine was created from a few parts of the Peugeot engine in collaboration with Miller and Fred Offenhauser, Miller’s machinist, both well-known names in racing now. This engine was the first to use Miller’s “Alloyanum” lightweight pistons. Miller was using the alloy to make carburetor bodies, and coincidentally, most of the Point Loma race cars used Miller’s Marvel carburetor. The success of this engine generated a lot of interest and was the start of Miller’s and Offenhauser’s racing engine reputations.
In April 1916 he raced in Corona, California. The town had a three mile long, 70ft wide circular main street called the Grand Boulevard than ran around the city center. Races were held there in 1913 and 1914 with great success. After a break of some 18 months a third race was organised in 1916.
Corona is a city between Anaheim (Disneyland) and Riverside in California. Today the circular street can still be clearly seen although surrounded by freeways etc.
Attachment 66920
2020 Google map.
Attachment 66921
Looking away from the start line area. (2020)
Attachment 66922
The Corona 1916 finish line area in 2020.
Attachment 66923
The same area in 1916 after the racing was and crowds of perhaps 100,000 had to make their way home !
(Ken H..)
Alloyanum, an interesting name that reminded me of being told about the front suspension arms on the Healey (before Austin). They were made from "pistominium" according to the Healey family. When I asked what that was, "melted down Merlin pistons" was the reply.
Not as good as the opening of The World's Fastest Indian.
"One of Ford, two of Chevy..."
The 1916 race continued;
Attachment 66928
Bob Burman and Eric Schrader in their # 7 Peugeot before the start of the fateful race.
With the Miller built engine it was the fastest car on the track but it still only had rear wheel braking.
Attachment 66929
A scene during the race showing how close the crowd was to the track.
" Burman had led most of the race but about 12 laps from the finish, the rear wheel of his Peugeot collapsed, sending it crashing off the track at over 100 mph. The car hit a parked spectator car and rolled into the crowd. Burman and his riding mechanic, Erick Schroeder(Schrader), were thrown out and landed nearly 50 feet away. "
Attachment 66930
" Schroeder died instantly along with William Speer, a track steward. A number of other spectators were also injured. Burman was taken to Riverside hospital where he died shortly after. The tragedy prompted his friends, Barney Oldfield and Harry Arminius Miller, to join forces to design and build a racing car that incorporated a roll cage inside a protective streamlined driver's compartment. The result was the famous Goldern Submarine."
Attachment 66931
Attachment 66932
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/201...lden-submarine
(The story of a "Golden Submarine" replica with 4 wheel brakes.)
" The events at Corona in 1916 effectively ended racing away from the coast in Southern California for almost 40 years."
(Ken H)
Superb history lesson, Ken...
Thank you for that. I knew nothing of any of this. I guess my reading has always been more Euro-centric, Australian and some Indianapolis. Even Savannah's big races have required specific searching.
We had a family gathering last weekend and reminisced about how we were in Spain 10 rears ago at the time of Easter. 2011.
We stayed in Barcelona before driving to meet our daughter in Pamplona as she walked the famous religious hike across Spain known as the Camino de Santiago. clip by Peter Windsor
While in Barcelona I made sure to at least drive the Montjuic Circuit which was closed to major races after a tragic accident in 1975.
It was known as a fast but dangerous circuit but to some such as Chris Amon it was one of their favorite tracks to drive on.
I was too busy driving to capture any decent photos but I found this clip by Peter Windsor which ably gives the history and sights of this challenging circuit. Compare this to some of todays tracks except for Monaco.
I did walk from the top of the hill by the Olympic Stadium down to the first turn hairpin and thought of the 1969 scenes where the Lotus 49 rear wings collapsed, miraculously without killing Jochen Rindt or Graham Hill.
Attachment 69315
Attachment 69316
Hyndman wandering aimlessly around the streets of Montjuic Park. April 2011.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wont7Ns0FdY&t=38s
Peter Windsor's informative tour of the Montjuic Circuit.
(Ken H )
I can tell by his comments that he'd have loved to have driven the Nota Formula Vee he used at Warwick Farm around there...
And a good many quicker cars too. But through his commentary you could tell he was referring to Tasman Cup times - "Just imagine Jochen Rindt here in the Lotus 49!" Of course, Peter saw him in the rain at the Farm. And he's a Jim Clark fan through and through and spent time with Jim just eight weeks or so before he was killed.
Have you come across the site www.circuitsofthepast.com site. Some interesting stuff.
Yes, that Dutch (?) enthusiast's site...
In fact, he quotes some of my writing about a circuit, or maybe two. He comes up with some very interesting circuits.