PUKEKOHE

[ERC]

With a bog standard, front engined, rear wheel drive, heavy cast iron six, cast iron head, cast iron manifolds etc, in a fairly light chassis and a fibreglass body, understeer is a given, even when you turn in late!

[Kiwiboss]

Hampton Downs seems exceptionally tough on the front left tyres and brakes, so Puke is much kinder (and therefore cheaper).

I don't know about that Ray, generally a race car is about consuming products like tyres and brakes, etc, its the nature of the beast i guess and some tracks consume them more than others, to me Puke consumes engines trying to get down that damn long straight(now gone?) and probably a few panel-beaters have gotten rich from Puke as well. I don't find Hampton hard on tyres and brakes at all and im stopping a 1600kg car, sure it does eat them but no more than any other track, i just luv the technical side of racing at Hampton as the racing is close and fun(EG, Ricky Coopers in-car)

To me the vehicle types, technology and speed has changed in 50 years but Puke hasn't been matched in safety or modern improvements and i'd wish they'd actually spent the money doing this as they said they would, but as the Supercars is a "one Weekend" circus its all smoke and mirrors and to hell with the other 51 weekends. I doubt one could build a track like that today with all the resources consent issues, etc. Still, lets make the most of it while its there as surely one day it wont be!! just make sure those barriers don't consume your car in the mean time!!LOL

PS: Just heard that yesterdays BMW Fest at Puke turned into a "Smashfest" half a dozen cars into the concrete barriers and one taken to hospital, thats all i've heard?

Dale M

[ERC]

Heard the same Dale. Quite a badly mangled car I believe. Maybe BMW won't be back either?

I just hope that our final race of the season at the HRC meeting at Pukekohe on Saturday is panel damage free. If it isn't, then maybe we'll have to reconsider too. Roll on the HD track extension being built as I can see a lot of value in making our series 100% HD based if there are three track configurations. Beats having to include Pukekohe and Taupo for variety. I would also be happy running a couple of one day meetings on the new short track as I also see it as more cost effective at the moment.

It won't stop drivers being invited to other tracks but the races just won't count for points -just one of the options we are going to have to consider for the future, just to maintain grid sizes. If that means cars set up to perform/handle better at HD, so be it.

[rogered]

I don't know about that Ray, generally a race car is about consuming products like tyres and brakes, etc, its the nature of the beast i guess and some tracks consume them more than others, to me Puke consumes engines trying to get down that damn long straight(now gone?) and probably a few panel-beaters have gotten rich from Puke as well. I don't find Hampton hard on tyres and brakes at all and im stopping a 1600kg car, sure it does eat them but no more than any other track, i just luv the technical side of racing at Hampton as the racing is close and fun(EG, Ricky Coopers in-car)

To me the vehicle types, technology and speed has changed in 50 years but Puke hasn't been matched in safety or modern improvements and i'd wish they'd actually spent the money doing this as they said they would, but as the Supercars is a "one Weekend" circus its all smoke and mirrors and to hell with the other 51 weekends. I doubt one could build a track like that today with all the resources consent issues, etc. Still, lets make the most of it while its there as surely one day it wont be!! just make sure those barriers don't consume your car in the mean time!!LOL

PS: Just heard that yesterdays BMW Fest at Puke turned into a "Smashfest" half a dozen cars into the concrete barriers and one taken to hospital, thats all i've heard?

Dale M

It was pi$$in down quite a bit if the day, and a few offs but, some of the blocks need to be removed in a few places. Railway as an example.
I wonder who the person is that can make that call?

[Rod Grimwood]

Well, well. Concrete walls and cars don't mix. So much for the safety side of it. Think i would rather root a left tyre than the whole car.
Roger, are the concrete barriers still down the inside of the back straight leaving no where to pull over if you have too stop, and can not see why they are around Railway, once again some one needs to make a call.

[Howard Wood]

I ran with the BMWs at Puke yesterday. Bearing in mind that I haven't raced there since the Grand Prix in 1979 and had a few demons to exorcise I really enjoyed it despite having a mixed day.

Apart from the new complex at the back which is as if someone has parachuted the Taupo infield in, the track is as daunting as it always was. As there were passing rain squalls all day the track was very slippery in all the usual places, especially railway and there was standing water on the inside of turn one. I didn't see the accidents (was a bit busy changing gearboxes) but the damaged barriers and tyre marks on the approach to the hill and on the hill suggest that both cars went straight in or close to it so the position of the barriers would not have made a difference. To be honest I didn't feel the barriers were intrusive from a driving perspective at all but my spectators complained they blocked the view pretty much everywhere except in the stands.

It is hard to see where all the money has been spent, that's for sure. Its still bumpy, the drainage is crap and the new complex had standing water at the apex of the left hander all day. Interestingly, I felt that the grip levels were poor there during testing on Friday in the dry but were better than the rest of the track in the wet. These three new corners are quite slow, especially the second left hander (exacerbated by the standing water at the apex) and it has certainly slowed the maximum speed down. I fitted my longer diff for this meeting which was a mistake.

All in all, I was pleasantly surprised, there are certainly more passing opportunities now, especially for people reluctant to launch around the outside of turn one!

[Michael Clark]

Amazingly Howard I have just come off MyLaps looking for your results...

Shame I was down south yesterday so therefore unavailable to assist with the gearbox change.

"..as if someone has parachuted the Taupo infield in..." doesn't fill me with anticipation for next weekend!

[Howard Wood]

Pleased you can get MyLaps to work!!!

My slaves Kayne and young Phil were wonderful, we changed it between races, got to the dummy grid with about 30 seconds to spare.

Looks like I will have to be there next weekend as a FF mechanic to return the favour to Phil.

[ERC]

You bring along a spare gearbox Howard? Wow... Shows me up for the hobby racer I am! Checking tyre pressures and fluids is about my limit. As for MyLaps, their upgrade has been a disaster...

[Steve Emson]

Raced on Puke with and without chicanes. I think I liked the chicanes better because in my opinion it added a little more skill and daring, but mostly more passing opportunities under brakes. You had to get through the back straight chicane without slowing excessively to be fast.
Many will disagree, I have no idea what it is like now. Cannot remember the last time i was even there. I guess I am luke warm about the place, but I had great success at the track, so i guess I should have fonder memories.
I loved Levin and Manfield however. Before I ever raced there Dad kept telling me stories of a magician who was very quick around Levin. He told me if I could get around there in this certain time i would be doing alright. The magicians name was Kerry Grant.
I vividly remember the first ever race meeting at Manfield. Some people were miles quicker than anyone else. Neville Bailey came and told me the apparent secret to getting around the big sweeper onto the front straight. It is actually the same secret to the carrousel at Lakeside here in OZ. It didn't take long for most people to cotton on.
The long distance races at Puke, that can get my juices going. Being able to work away for your stint was very enjoyable, especially if the pit board was telling you if you were leading the class or needed to catch other cars. Watching the split come down while catching was a study in concentration, especially in the dark. I think I have just changed my mind. I do like the place.

[beowulf]

A couple of weeks ago a car was badly damaged at Hampton Downs. Aquaplaned and hit the tyre barriers by the pit entrance. It can happen at any track, especially in the wet. I would love to see the Aussie taxis at puke ion the wet.

[ERC]

I think that the car that hit the wall at HD wasn't through aquaplaning. The driver arrived late. Missed driver's briefing. Didn't check the tyre pressures. Having spoken to the driver afterwards, believed that one tyre was way low and came a cropper on lap one. However, the following car's in car video showed it doing a hard right alongside the pit entrance and there was a suspicion that maybe a wrong gear grabbed but I haven't heard the final result as I had to leave just as they were going through the video again. It certainly wasn't a circuit problem, though it did take 45 mins to effect repairs to the barrier and remove the car.

[Chris Read]

Raced on Puke with and without chicanes. I think I liked the chicanes better because in my opinion it added a little more skill and daring, but mostly more passing opportunities under brakes. You had to get through the back straight chicane without slowing excessively to be fast.
Many will disagree, I have no idea what it is like now. Cannot remember the last time i was even there. I guess I am luke warm about the place, but I had great success at the track, so i guess I should have fonder memories.
I loved Levin and Manfield however. Before I ever raced there Dad kept telling me stories of a magician who was very quick around Levin. He told me if I could get around there in this certain time i would be doing alright. The magicians name was Kerry Grant.
I vividly remember the first ever race meeting at Manfield. Some people were miles quicker than anyone else. Neville Bailey came and told me the apparent secret to getting around the big sweeper onto the front straight. It is actually the same secret to the carrousel at Lakeside here in OZ. It didn't take long for most people to cotton on.
The long distance races at Puke, that can get my juices going. Being able to work away for your stint was very enjoyable, especially if the pit board was telling you if you were leading the class or needed to catch other cars. Watching the split come down while catching was a study in concentration, especially in the dark. I think I have just changed my mind. I do like the place.

Always liked Puke as it was terror and skill. Grant Aitken and I did a few 8 and 6 hr B & H's in Datsuns and getting it right over the hill into the start/ finish and getting out of jail every time at the end was satisfaction especially as the tyres came in. We did what Leo did and shaved the steel belt radials down on the tyre balancer after cutting a few up to see how far we could go. Was good for 2 sec from the get go and you didn't change it until the sparks starting showing in the dark from the steel on the road. The first race we did was round the long circuit and way too tame. I did a Nissan celeb car race series with several rounds at Puke. They used tweaked Nissan Sentra's and did well except for one race when this Sentra came out looking all the norm, number and all, and started punting everyone to liven things up. It was Skaife in a hot 'Q' car which Nissan had imported and got Skaife to slip into the race to give us all a fright complete with fingers and all, as he created chaos. I enjoyed it especially when I found out but a few were a bit dark. We should have guessed as he was at the meeting along with Jim in Godzilla. Good times and I will never forget that puddle in the middle of turn one. Chris Read - Arrowtown.

[beowulf]

I think that the car that hit the wall at HD wasn't through aquaplaning. The driver arrived late. Missed driver's briefing. Didn't check the tyre pressures. Having spoken to the driver afterwards, believed that one tyre was way low and came a cropper on lap one. However, the following car's in car video showed it doing a hard right alongside the pit entrance and there was a suspicion that maybe a wrong gear grabbed but I haven't heard the final result as I had to leave just as they were going through the video again. It certainly wasn't a circuit problem, though it did take 45 mins to effect repairs to the barrier and remove the car.
Just goes to show that one shouldn't jump to conclusions. It always amazes me the drivers who arrive late, jump in the car without a basic check and head out onto the track. We all have a lot of money invested in our cars, why blow it for an extra ten minutes sleep? The marshalls did a fantastic job, it was a big hit. I am sure the red flag was out before the car had stopped. Very professional.

[ERC]

Yep. Totally agree, We have a great crew trackside, thanks mainly to the tireless and very professional work of the Motorsport Club running race control, the various flag points and the dummy grid, pit entry/exit etc.

[Kiwiboss]

Well, sounds like they wrote a few more of at Puke on the weekend(saturday) !! whether its brain fade, the track or just the conditions i don't know? i went along yesterday as "pit bitch' for a customer, and although the pit improvements stood out, it was still a gumboot wearing mudfest!! If thats 6mill spent well im in the wrong occupation!!

Dale M

[beowulf]

Well, sounds like they wrote a few more of at Puke on the weekend(saturday) !! whether its brain fade, the track or just the conditions i don't know? i went along yesterday as "pit bitch' for a customer, and although the pit improvements stood out, it was still a gumboot wearing mudfest!! If thats 6mill spent well im in the wrong occupation!!

Dale M

I have always found Pukekohe very slippery when wet. Now there is even less room for error with those horrible "energy absorbing concrete" walls. A slow spin at the top of the hill when trying to let a faster car through and getting off the slightly dry line saw the car kiss the wall. I think there is no damage, but it went onto the trailer. The rain was not heavy but there was running water across the track at the new section with the usual water at Railway and the section before the hill. The V8's were very lucky that there was no rain when they were there. It would have been carnage. I ran in much heavier rain at HD a fortnight before and there was good grip. A couple of thousand dollars digging some sump holes, filling them with rocks could be a good investment. Great toilets, sorry toilet. Did the 6 million dollars include the infrastructure from Hamilton? The Auckland ratepayer and the NZ taxpayer got ripped off.
I will race at Puke again, but if it is wet the car will stay on the trailer.

[EType]

I really like the changed lay out - certainly helps even out the power differential but it has been poorly executed as others have said standing water on the track even when not raining heavily.

And the single seaters were bottoming out on the new ramp leading to the practice grid.

And six million and they could only build one toilet?

Also frustrating that we were supposed to start at 9.30 but didn't get away till 10.15 - i'm assuming this was at least partly horse related.

But easily the worst part is the freaking concrete barriers - why? I haven't seen an answer yet.

[Rod Grimwood]

Mate the horse's have caused shit (literally) for years out there, and they only survive on motorsport money. Different people entirely. Holy, follow them on the road with their flash trailers doing 60-70ks in middle of road, hair all done in bun like the horse's tail, they wear funny pants and things, just not right.
They know when things are on but just dick around. I love watching my dog eat his dog roll.

[Carlo]

Mate the horse's have caused shit (literally) for years out there, and they only survive on motorsport money. Different people entirely. Holy, follow them on the road with their flash trailers doing 60-70ks in middle of road, hair all done in bun like the horse's tail, they wear funny pants and things, just not right.
They know when things are on but just dick around. I love watching my dog eat his dog roll.

Grimme, A race horse must be the strongest animal in the world, just look how many people can be taken for a ride on one, and all at the same time too.

[Rod Grimwood]

Love it Carl

[ERC]

The horse training facility based at Puke means they are allowed to train until 10am - which of course, they do. Then the track has to be swept where they cross, so the chances of getting started before 10:15 are very slim, unless prior arrangements have been made.

First practice on Saturday started at 10:21am.

However, the horse fraternity owns Pukekohe, the motorsport fraternity doesn't. I was told Saturday that the land can only be used for both sports and is therefore unlikely to be sold off for housing. We all want Pukekohe as a local race track, but surely, the powers that be need to look beyond one weekend a year?

[John McKechnie]

I really like the changed lay out - certainly helps even out the power differential but it has been poorly executed as others have said standing water on the track even when not raining heavily.

And the single seaters were bottoming out on the new ramp leading to the practice grid.

And six million and they could only build one toilet?

Also frustrating that we were supposed to start at 9.30 but didn't get away till 10.15 - i'm assuming this was at least partly horse related.

But easily the worst part is the freaking concrete barriers - why? I haven't seen an answer yet.

If you saw the bottom hinges on the gate, they are not good and it took them 20 minutes just to close a gate.

[Ricky]

Here is some in car from a Honda Cup car from Saturdays wet meeting, most of us found the river on the exit of the new section very challenging.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv1AcaaEAFI

[EType]

That's crazy, nothing the driver could have done (well at least if I was driving) and two other cars already parked there.

Stewart

[nzeder]

2 cars already parked there + right at the end another one goes in further up - look at round 48second in and around 1:01 the camera jumps which make you think he was hit while sitting there also.

[RogerH]

2 cars already parked there + right at the end another one goes in further up - look at round 48second in and around 1:01 the camera jumps which make you think he was hit while sitting there also.

Here is a clip from the car that went into the car in the previous clip :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsNp_gJ_Kq0

[Carlo]

One would expect that the yellow flag was being displayed and if so then two drivers have produced evidence that they ignored it and in doing so exposed other competitors and trackside officials to risk.

[Oldfart]

One would expect that the yellow flag was being displayed and if so then two drivers have produced evidence that they ignored it and in doing so exposed other competitors and trackside officials to risk.

There are a lot of questions to be answered given the video clips!

[RacerT]

Sad outcome for the Honda Cup cars with 9 of their cars damaged and two written off on saturday. BMW suffered a similar fate the week before with 10+ cars damaged. It’s a pity some of the $6.6 million ‘upgrade’ wasn’t spent on drainage. Let's hope its fine for the V8 SuperTourer meeting in two weeks.

[Howard Wood]

Probably a tough call either way Carl but as I am pretty sure there is a flag point between the right and left hander (turns 4 & 5) in the new complex a yellow flag should appear right in front at approx 25 secs on the first clip. I have looked and can't see one. Does that mean a yellow was not out despite several cars being off the circuit 1.5 corners ahead?

In the second clip the in car visibilty and camera angle are so bad that its impossible to see but at the approach to turn 4 there appears to be a green flashing light. Presumably the all clear from an incident further back.

Either way, the conditions were atrocious for both drivers and flaggies so some leeway needs to be given. The fundamental issue is that $6million plus was spent and clearly not on drainage.

[Carlo]

New seal is all ways slippery in the wet until it has time to age and the oils in the bitumen compound are dispersed, these oils do take some time to work their way out to the surface and hot dry dusty days do help but it does take time and until this process is completed the new seal will be quite slippery in the wet. Even if you had a severe camber on the road and perfect drainage the new seal will still be slippery until the oils disperse.

Just think of what happens when you get a diesel spill on a sealed road and then it rains afterwards for that is pretty much what is happening.

Howard, crap weather conditions are not an excuse for failure to operate flag points correctly in fact this is when they should be at their very very best. In that respect as a Clerk of Course I have been fortunate to have worked with some excellent flag and trackside teams on a number of circuits and in some pretty adverse conditions, they never once looked like letting me or any competitor down and I trusted their actions and their judgement completely.

[RogerH]

I was talking to a driver today and evidently the surface conditions at the subject part of the track where the carnage happened, was not so much to do with dispersing of the new bitumen oils but more with drainage. The track had been slippery but manageable until such time as the drainage (or lack of it) at that section of the track resulted in standing water across the track that caused aquaplaning. On the previous lap it was OK - the next lap you were aquaplaning with no warning.

[Rod Grimwood]

Just watched both videos and yes there are some questions to be answered, Green light when cars are against fence ? in second video as you come down back straight to kink you can see cars going off, why continue at pace ? (mind you GREEN light is on) in first video the guy is sittng there for awhile as another car goes down outside of them and then cops Video car 2 up the arse. Some one was not on the flags or relaying message to control.
Definate green light with cars (plural as in a few more than one) in a very dangerous position.

[rogered]

GeEZz dont blame the flaggies
Its pi$$ing down with rain.
The guy in the second video is on lap 4 ( he has already been over this part of the track 3 times in the last 5 minites) so the surface conditions are Known to him.
There are clearly brake lights on the cars already off on the grass.
our man maybe should have slowed a little, but then again ,he was in a race

[nigel watts]

I thought the green light may have been a railway signal.

[Carlo]

I thought the green light may have been a railway signal.

They are.

[Heartbeat]

AS one of those cars in the Honda race I got off lightly with a repair bill of $2600 after being hit in turn two by an aquaplaning supertourer driver just driving too fast for the scary conditions , yes I have a bill which I shouldn"t have he has a broken hand which is far worse than any damage I incured but have driven on the same track in the same conditions a few years ago in a six hour race where they red flagged it straight away maybe that is the answer the circuit is not the same one we have all raced on before and never will be again.

[Rod Grimwood]

I thought the green light may have been a railway signal.

Good call Nigel, but think V8 Supercars operate a light system as well as flags, No sure but have seen it.

[John McKechnie]

AS one of those cars in the Honda race I got off lightly with a repair bill of $2600 after being hit in turn two by an aquaplaning supertourer driver just driving too fast for the scary conditions , yes I have a bill which I shouldn"t have he has a broken hand which is far worse than any damage I incured but have driven on the same track in the same conditions a few years ago in a six hour race where they red flagged it straight away maybe that is the answer the circuit is not the same one we have all raced on before and never will be again.

You are absolutely correct, any thing done has changed it- especially with the concrete barriers right against the track means the water cannot drain away.

[beowulf]

You are absolutely correct, any thing done has changed it- especially with the concrete barriers right against the track means the water cannot drain away.

This track has a FIA licence and it is a shocker. What is MSNZ doing to correct it? Tracks used to have a log book that had problem areas noted by the steward, does this still apply?
When the Honda's went out for their race some were on slicks. Gambling that the weather would improve. It would be interesting to know what tyres those that crashed were on. Puke is just not safe in the wet now, it always was marginal. I hope it is fine for the V8s.

[ERC]

Given the weather that day was obviously getting worse rather than better, I am staggered that anyone would have gone out on slicks.

Although our final race was wet, all 27 cars that started it managed to get home without panel damage. Insisting on Dot rated, WoF legal treaded tyres, may well have been a lucky rule. I feel really sorry for any driver who was an innocent party and suffered panel damage - and that extends to the owners who were not in the driving seat at the time. I hope the guest drivers front up and assist with the cost of repairs.

There is nothing more frustrating in motorsport than having to drive or trailer a damaged car home when it wasn't in anyway your fault. I think in all three damage causing accidents have been involved in (two at Pukekohe, one at Whenuapai), I was the innocent party and it is a risk we all take.

It does mean that the U2K cup series is looking more and more attractive to regular drivers of classic cars, who may just decide to park them up to preserve them, not just the new guys.

[nzeder]

2kcup does look interesting, points go to the team not just the driver so given the program of either 1 hour race or 2 30 mins races I see cheap fun for 2 drivers and 1 Car for $1000 in each for a car then add in safety gear etc that will spread the cost + both will want to drive = keep it going and tidy so the other can drive.

However this is off topic....back to puke...so drainage appears to be worse than before, it always had it issues, so will these get looked into or will it take a wet Oz supercar v8 race to kick start a drainage improvement project?

[John McKechnie]

Lets look at responsibility here- do racers have to put up with what is obviously risky to dangerous when wet and the track is allowed to be used.
Will those responsible for providing a race track actually take responsibility for what what they provide.
If they were forced to take responsibility then could this important drainage work take place?
If it rains for the Supertourers , and there was mass carnage who carries the can and still would anything get done then?

Or do racers have this situation forever or not race there?

[ERC]

Ask Len Brown...

I'm with Beowulf. Until such time as the problems are resolved, if it rains, my car stays in the paddock/pits. Rain tyres or treaded tyres are fine but they don't stop aquaplaning on standing water - which just shouldn't be there on a supposedly uprated track.

[John McKechnie]

Ray- Thats a passive and not very productive response from a series organizer.
Wheres your Churchillian fighting spirit on this vital matter?

[Frosty5]

The spiritual home of NZ Motor racing, was before but no longer. Lets face it guys, $6million to make it mutton dressed as lamb and it hasn't worked. And the dribble that poured forth from Larkham and Skaife about how great it was. Reciprocal back slapping no less! Well I guess you have to talk it up after conning the council and its ratepayers.Concrete barriers from a---hole to breakfast, obscuring back straight action, standing water at critical points on the circuit. Auckland ratepayers must be wondering if Len has been on K2 to agree to the package that Cochrane and his cronies sold them. I am just amazed at the incompetence of the parties involved and yes the councillors here in Hamilton to be sold such a pup. I have mentioned it previously, how good would that money have been for HD and have a genuine Tier 2 facility while Puke is still a Tier 3 with all that money spent on it. Shades of Bernie Ecclestone you may ask????

[ERC]

Ray- Thats a passive and not very productive response from a series organizer.
Wheres your Churchillian fighting spirit on this vital matter?
Passive it may be John , but as there are only two cars (yes just two) like mine in the country, sometimes, discretion is the better part of valour. Unlike those who have a ready supply of body and mechanical parts available comparatively easily, plus those running cars where the overall production run was in the 1,000s, just spare a thought where there were less than 200 made of a particular make/model. In Beowulf's case, I believe his car is unique.

As for fighting spirit, "He who runs away, lives to fight another day..."

I respect any driver who calculates the risks and withdraws. If it was good enough for Nikki Lauda, it is good enough for us. Fix the track and things might be different but until it is fixed, it is a driver's right to not put himself or his car at risk, let alone other drivers.

Just think what would have happened if the first Honda driver had quickly stepped out and gone behind his car (a natural reaction) to hop over the barrier and been crushed by the next car falling off? We could so easily have been looking at a fatality.

[John McKechnie]

There is a story of a top European F5000 driver in the 70s Tasman Series at a race meeting in Queensland during severe rain.
At one corner , during practice, there was nothing on the corner to stop drivers leaving the track and disappearing into a small lake, there were even divers on standby.
He refused to race unless a chicane went in.
The track organizers put a chicane in, drivers crashed against it, including our hero , in the rain.
Result was no one got hurt or drowned, organizer listened to the complaint and acted.
Do we want drivers leaving their cars at home anytime the weather is overcast?
And yes, Ray, I also have a rare car - I want to be able to run the one and only authentic Team Cambridge Monaro there in relative safety, if there is a shower.
So who needs to have put the pressure on them?
And who will lead this challenge?

[John McKechnie]

Rodgered- you have put this beautifully with such simplicity.
Now who is the person in authority-Car Club , or MSNZ or such duly endowed person who will go to this person in charge at Puke to get this corrected as soon as possible ?
ANYONE PLEASE????????????

[Kiwiboss]

You guys don't get it!! this is ONLY a one weekend a year race track!! :) if for the other 51 weekends others wish to take to this dinosaur track and destroy their vehicles, themselves, no matter what the conditions are, im sure the track owners and others involved couldn't even give a S^*T!!

Who do you think is having the last laugh here!!

Dale M

[rogered]

Actuallay who is getting the last laugh ??????.

[rogered]

Simple operation!
Who is the man in charge at Puke???

Request (nicly) that the contractor comes back and remedies the drainage . (I would think even puke management would want that done, so that should be simple)

Dicide which concrete Barriers need removed (to make the place safer, from a health and saftey view). Puke then gets a hiab truck in for a day and removes the bloody things. They can be put back for the 1 meet a year which need them.

[John McKechnie]

Simple operation!
Who is the man in charge at Puke???

Request (nicly) that the contractor comes back and remedies the drainage . (I would think even puke management would want that done, so that should be simple)

Dicide which concrete Barriers need removed (to make the place safer, from a health and saftey view). Puke then gets a hiab truck in for a day and removes the bloody things. They can be put back for the 1 meet a year which need them.

Rodgered- you have put this beautifully with such simplicity.
Now who is the person in authority-Car Club , or MSNZ or such duly endowed person who will go to this person in charge at Puke to get this corrected as soon as possible ?
ANYONE PLEASE????????????

[ERC]

As Franklin Racing Club are the owners, then surely it must be up to them? As Kiwi Boss says, they are probably now happy with one weekend a year of massive subsidised income one way or another. If hirers stop hiring it for the rest of the year they might do something, but as far as I am aware, bookings for the future are just as solid as they ever were.

Whether those bookings are profitable for the promoting clubs with good race entries remains to be seen.

[Jizim]

Rodgered- you have put this beautifully with such simplicity.
Now who is the person in authority-Car Club , or MSNZ or such duly endowed person who will go to this person in charge at Puke to get this corrected as soon as possible ?
ANYONE PLEASE????????????

I am pretty sure all the issues you are talking about are currently being addressed. Except of course unforseen weather bombs like what occurred out there during the Honda one hour race. It was a pity so many went off as these guys were doing a sterling job in the conditions leading up to this race. I think there were eight off at the pin and two at turn two..(which wasnt a weather problem I'm told...) ......With regards, Tony.R.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Anyone know who will be running in the sport & Gt class this weekend at Puke.

[Rod Grimwood]

It will be very wet, so no one most probably. Unless there is a class for jet boats.

[CUSTAXIE50]

It will be very wet, so no one most probably. Unless there is a class for jet boats.

So its a case of all hands to the pump,maybe puke fire station and some of the boys and girls who man it, may like to show how its done removing water from the track may only cost you one or two beers and a feed.

[John McKechnie]

Not enough pumps today. Ute race cancelled. A bit of water on track would not go away for some reason .

[CUSTAXIE50]

Not enough pumps today. Ute race cancelled. A bit of water on track would not go away for some reason .

Maybe they should have used that $20.000 of rate payers money on some way to fix this up.WHAT the hell is your Len Brown up to-$20.000 on a walk way around the water front of auckland,1km and 5 bullshit questions to answer whats going on up there with auckland today with this Len Brown.

[John McKechnie]

Cant blame Len Brown for continuing unforseen weather bombs, only the track management for still not doing anything about the pooling water-see .speedcafe.co.nz/2013/05/25/udc-nz-v8-utes-opening-race-cancelled/ and #304 above
"It is the third racing weekend in a row that the venue has been affected with standing water"- cant blame weather bombs for this .Serious drainage time needed.

[fullnoise68]

John, you can blame Len Brown, because he was the tool that told everyone on the news with the Supercars announcement that Pukekohe would undergo a `massive' upgrade. All he has done - along with Tony Cochrane - has baffled everyone with bullshit, and bought in his big Lego set with its building blocks and tried to convince everyone that its `fixed'. Next time you drive around a subdivision, you`ll notice the drainage gets done first. They also usually dig the foundation footings before they put the roof on a new house. The fact that the Counties Racing Boards members average age is about 88, probably led to some dementia assisted decisions being agreed to as well.

[John McKechnie]

Track management is the only one that CAN /WILL fix it, not Len Brown.
Go to the people that actually can do something- not play the blame game.
I hope they have good weather today -imagine a delegation of united Supertourer teams going to the Clerk of the Course demanding a course inspection if the track is dangerous with too much standing water.
No one wants their valuable car wrecked or drivers hurt like Andrew Waite-who now cant drive today because of last weekend.

[Rod Grimwood]

Track management is the only one that CAN /WILL fix it, not Len Brown.
Go to the people that actually can do something- not play the blame game.
I hope they have good weather today -imagine a delegation of united Supertourer teams going to the Clerk of the Course demanding a course inspection if the track is dangerous with too much standing water.
No one wants their valuable car wrecked or drivers hurt like Andrew Waite-who now cant drive today because of last weekend.

John, the clerk of course will only stop racing for safety reasons, this is after the fact as they know there is a balls up with the whole set up, and bet the boys don't get the entry fee back. It needs to be layed at Len Brown and his co horts feet and told 'you f&^$#d it, you fix it.

Other option is don't turn off motorway and continue south.

Steve the bodies of the horsey ones maybe 80 odd but their brains are way back in the dark ages and would put them around 5 centuries old.
A bit of information to mull over, the horse racing industry uses 15 times the amount of fuel that motorsport does, so come on you world saving Greenies, lets picket the horsey's and leave the mine alone so we can have more steel which gives us more cars and may save the Falcon.

[rogered]

Not enough pumps today. Ute race cancelled. A bit of water on track would not go away for some reason .

If the flooding is on the new section again, that section at lease has a bypass " route" (the old section) :}

[Rod Grimwood]

Roger, they would have to reset their GPS 's in the utes and tourers, and this would take out a good corner to tag some one.

[rogered]

yeah you right, never thought of that. :)

[Frosty5]

Does anyone know if the V8ST at Puke is being televised live today. I thought TV 3 had the rights but comments from them indicate a sponsors hiccup whatever that means

[ERC]

Televised for transmission a week later. Doesn't worry me too much as it will probably be a better as a planned package.

[928]

Roger, they would have to reset their GPS 's in the utes and tourers, and this would take out a good corner to tag some one.
surely tagging someone while he is water skiing is more spectacular

[CUSTAXIE50]

surely tagging someone while he is water skiing is more spectacular

What a Joke at what i saw on tv3 sport last night,did i hear right one driver say a river running over the track.As i said its a JOKE what the hell are the owners doing putting their cars out there with all this standing water,what are they on K2 or something,i think the time has come that someone maybe from nzms shut this track down before someone is killed, and tell the owners to get there shit together and fix the problem with this water on the track.

[John McKechnie]

Custaxie50- thank you, thats exactly what I also have been saying here.

[Howard Wood]

The issues with the drainage were raised here on TRS over 4 weeks ago. Maybe this is the answer to Steve's funding issues, turn the site into a highly paid consultant group, clearly the Council and others have more money than sense. Pity no one was listening.

[John McKechnie]

Is anyone from Pukekohe track maintenance listening now?

[CUSTAXIE50]

The issues with the drainage were raised here on TRS over 4 weeks ago. Maybe this is the answer to Steve's funding issues, turn the site into a highly paid consultant group, clearly the Council and others have more money than sense. Pity no one was listening. Yes the council does,but its rate payers money after all and needs to be used the right way.

[Kiwiboss]

Is anyone from Pukekohe track maintenance listening now?

I posted this back on 301:

{You guys don't get it!! this is ONLY a one weekend a year race track!! if for the other 51 weekends others wish to take to this dinosaur track and destroy their vehicles, themselves, no matter what the conditions are, im sure the track owners and others involved couldn't give a S^*T!!} and this includes the Len Brown council.

NOTHING will ever happen to maintain or repair this track unless the water issues affect the V8 supercar circus!! Its enter at your peril. You have been warned.

Dale M

[CUSTAXIE50]

I posted this back on 301:

{You guys don't get it!! this is ONLY a one weekend a year race track!! if for the other 51 weekends others wish to take to this dinosaur track and destroy their vehicles, themselves, no matter what the conditions are, im sure the track owners and others involved couldn't give a S^*T!!} and this includes the Len Brown council.

NOTHING will ever happen to maintain or repair this track unless the water issues affect the V8 supercar circus!! Its enter at your peril. You have been warned.

Dale M I hear what you are saying,i understand there is water running across the front part of puke if they know where it is coming from,what plan needs to be put in place to stop this, would like to hear if you have a view on how to fix this problem.

[Carlo]

About 1986 or 1987 I ended up with our car sitting on the start finish line jacked up as high as I could get it onto axle stands as water rushed down the straight and through pit lane al the result of about 20 minutes of very heavy rainfall around the Pukekohe area. Basically the main drain for Puke town runs under the straight and this could not cope with the volume of water hence the overflow so water overflow is not a new issue.

From what I have been lead to believe about development of the area is this (1) the race track area is amongst the lowest lying land in the vicinity. (2) it is basically a drained swamp. (3) When urban development occurs and such things as roads, houses, driveways etc are constructed the rain that would normally be absorbed by the ground that these development cover now has to run off via drains and/or soak into the land that is free to do so which means that it gets very localised into the lower lying areas.

Now a question for all the people with far more knowledge than I on this subject, If the ground surrounding the track was not all ready full to the max with run off water from the town area would it be able to drain off the water that falls onto the track?

[ERC]

Maybe they should have just spent some of the millions creating a lake (same as Mallory Park...) in the centre of the horse track...

[Malcolm McLeod]

Well, I got to Puke yesterday to flag for the first time at the "Circuit Mark Skaife Hamilton at Pukekohe", and can safely say that, with the exception of the 6 Hour race, and maybe the V8 Supercars, um, I won't be flagging there anymore.
It is an absolute joke that at many flag points you have to climb up the wall and clamber through the actual openings that you flag out of, to get on point.
It is also hard to see just where the actual flag points are, unless you see a flag waving (ok, that wasn't a problem yesterday, I waved the red flag more times yesterday then I have for the last 5 years!).
And the racing certainly suffered with having to launch the Safety Car everytime a car stopped on the side of the track, as with the exception of one or two places, there is nowhere for the cars to pull off.
Having said that, the driving by many competitors was absolute crap and undisciplined - the first 6 or 7 races all had either safety car periods, red flags, or both! No wonder Morty was expecting to still be there at 8.30 last night!!!!!
To those of you who have decided not to race there in future - I shall look forward to blue flagging you at HD.... :)

[Malcolm McLeod]

Maybe they should have just spent some of the millions creating a lake (same as Mallory Park...) in the centre of the horse track...
< Like! >

[ERC]

Having said that, the driving by many competitors was absolute crap and undisciplined - the first 6 or 7 races all had either safety car periods, red flags, or both! No wonder Morty was expecting to still be there at 8.30 last night!!!!!
To those of you who have decided not to race there in future - I shall look forward to blue flagging you at HD.... :)
Good post and from someone with zero self interest who we really need on side.

The low grid numbers at this event, where what we saw as a viable alternative to the low grids in Tier one, has now been severely compromised and if Malcolm's assessment regarding driving standards is to be believed (and the red flags probably speak for themselves), then our biggest concern is in fact driving standards, not the track.

If the driving standards are such that they can't stay on the track when the grids are small, then heaven help us. At least our own series race a couple of weeks ago had 30 cars in a handicap, with a large speed differential and heaps of overtaking in less than ideal track conditions, with no panel damage, so surely these semi professional drivers should be able to cope, after all, this is not stock car racing.

[Howard Wood]

From what I have been lead to believe about development of the area is this (1) the race track area is amongst the lowest lying land in the vicinity. (2) it is basically a drained swamp. (3) When urban development occurs and such things as roads, houses, driveways etc are constructed the rain that would normally be absorbed by the ground that these development cover now has to run off via drains and/or soak into the land that is free to do so which means that it gets very localised into the lower lying areas.

Carl you are technically correct, the original track construction 41 years ago was held up because of drainage issues made worse by an unusually wet winter so this is hardly a new or unexpected issue. However, while the property itself is probably a bit of a bowl, the whole Pukekohe area is quite elevated and only 5 or 6 km as the crow flies down to the Waikato river. Therefore getting water drained away from the whole area is not impossible. There is a natural waterway running through the little township of Buckland at the hairpin end down towards Tuakau.

I suspect the whole drainage issue has always been in the too hard basket. I was told last year by someone intimate with these details that the drain running under the approach to turn one terminated under the track, either was broken or possibly had never gone anywhere. The question therefore is: knowing these issues existed was any attempt made to fix it or was the (our) money spent on puffery and corporate facilities instead? As for building the new section, complete with much lauded banking angles and a high curb (dam) with no apparent means of drainage, just unbelievable.

Having said that, anyone with experience of the place knows that its always slippery at Railway after any rain, the approach to turn one is bumpy with the outside line risky and the line on the approach to the hill critical. Its what makes the place so exciting and terrifying at the same time and requiring respect at all times.

[RacerT]

I thought you would like to see the new drain installed at the track to prevent any surface water running down the road and reaching the track in heavy rain.

[stubuchanan]

I thought you would like to see the new drain installed at the track to prevent any surface water running down the road and reaching the track in heavy rain.

Was this the drain you had in mind?

http://s6.postimg.org/t91ydvxf5/Pukekohe_038.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

As mentioned by Howard, this drain is supposed to drain the race track and a relatively small area north of it (about as far as the Council offices) and to the west including the industrial area. It runs south to Buckland (the buildings visible above the 2 water tanks) where it joins the Tutaenui Stream which drains the trotting course and Showgrounds area on the East of the railway line. Then it finds its way to the Waikato River.

An uneducated translation of Tutaenui would be Big(or large amount of) Shit, which may be quite close to the mark. About 15 years ago (?) there was flooding in parts of Pukekohe, and it was later found that the culverts which were supposed to be used for draining the area had been sitting uninstalled on the Race Track property for several years! I presume this work was eventually done, but the commercial/retail growth recently (much of it on land owned by the Counties Racing Club) has very likely increased the run-off quite a bit and the system is likely still inadequate for heavy rain (like the last few weeks!).

Just to add the last fly to the ointment, the boundary between the great(!) Auckland Council area and the Waikato District lies just past the Buckland Township, so the eventual disposal of the water isn't even Auckland's problem.

How do you rate the chances of a quick solution to the problem? Is there a civil engineer out there to solve it?

Stu

[Carlo]

Carl you are technically correct, the original track construction 41 years ago was held up because of drainage issues made worse by an unusually wet winter so this is hardly a new or unexpected issue. However, while the property itself is probably a bit of a bowl, the whole Pukekohe area is quite elevated and only 5 or 6 km as the crow flies down to the Waikato river. Therefore getting water drained away from the whole area is not impossible. There is a natural waterway running through the little township of Buckland at the hairpin end down towards Tuakau.

I suspect the whole drainage issue has always been in the too hard basket. I was told last year by someone intimate with these details that the drain running under the approach to turn one terminated under the track, either was broken or possibly had never gone anywhere. The question therefore is: knowing these issues existed was any attempt made to fix it or was the (our) money spent on puffery and corporate facilities instead? As for building the new section, complete with much lauded banking angles and a high curb (dam) with no apparent means of drainage, just unbelievable.

Having said that, anyone with experience of the place knows that its always slippery at Railway after any rain, the approach to turn one is bumpy with the outside line risky and the line on the approach to the hill critical. Its what makes the place so exciting and terrifying at the same time and requiring respect at all times.

So a simple old motor mechanic from Timaru knows more about the cause of the issue than the locals, well bugger me. As for your last paragraph Howard, just as any real racer would I agree with you 100%. Bloody hell it is magic to race around isn't it. Magic to engineer a car to go quickly around it too.

[fullnoise68]

Was this the drain you had in mind?

http://s6.postimg.org/t91ydvxf5/Pukekohe_038.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

As mentioned by Howard, this drain is supposed to drain the race track and a relatively small area north of it (about as far as the Council offices) and to the west including the industrial area. It runs south to Buckland (the buildings visible above the 2 water tanks) where it joins the Tutaenui Stream which drains the trotting course and Showgrounds area on the East of the railway line. Then it finds its way to the Waikato River.

An uneducated translation of Tutaenui would be Big(or large amount of) Shit, which may be quite close to the mark. About 15 years ago (?) there was flooding in parts of Pukekohe, and it was later found that the culverts which were supposed to be used for draining the area had been sitting uninstalled on the Race Track property for several years! I presume this work was eventually done, but the commercial/retail growth recently (much of it on land owned by the Counties Racing Club) has very likely increased the run-off quite a bit and the system is likely still inadequate for heavy rain (like the last few weeks!).

Just to add the last fly to the ointment, the boundary between the great(!) Auckland Council area and the Waikato District lies just past the Buckland Township, so the eventual disposal of the water isn't even Auckland's problem.

How do you rate the chances of a quick solution to the problem? Is there a civil engineer out there to solve it?

Stu

This photo just might help explain to the idiot non decision makers ( council engineers ) how to at least solve some of the problem. If you dug out half of that paddock between the drain and the hairpin, by doing so increasing the water capacity as in lake, pond, whatever, and use the dirt to form a raised dirt mound angled back from the track which could then be used by families or groups to sit down and watch the motor racing. A bit like what it used to be like at the old Baypark, rather than nowadays where at Pukekohe you become somewhat of a caged animal! This solution to some of the drainage issue would probably be a bit like when the original guy who invented the wheel said: shit, this is too easy!!!
There is an old saying, `water is like ability, it finds its own level' which somewhat sums up Len Brown and his bunch of clowns.

[Jizim]

Just a couple of things guys before you all go off a form a lynch mob....as I said early I thought the drainage issues were being sorted...well in fact they have. It did rain on the super tourer weekend and there was no puddling at all through the new turns 5, 6 and 7. So something is and has been done. As far as the Honda one hour race goes....the moment the first car went in just before the hairpin...the Safety Car was deployed and immediately the race was red flagged. There were a further seven cars that went in at near on the same place. Now I have done more competition miles around Pukekohe than most people I can think of and I have only ever seen a water bomb like this once before and that was at a six hour race. I favour wet weather driving and used to do a rain dance before meetings...but these weather bombs dump more water at one time and I can tell you the the track even before these upgrades with that amount of water on it has or had the same effect....there were eight or nine cars off at the pin back then! It all comes down to driving to the conditions. We could go another ten years and not see weather like that again....apart from the barriers down the back straight and the track being widened at turn one (a lot of folk dont know this..) and of course the new turns everything is the same as before. Me...personally....well I didnt really like the fact that they were changing the layout...in fact I would have preferred the old B & H layout where you hang a left on the front straight...but now I have gotten several laps and seemingly a hell of a lot more to come...under my belt, well I like it it. I have worked out the best line to take turn 6 (particularly in the wet) and if you dont you make turn 7 into a tighter corner as you witnessed the Honda's doing.......and that is on a high part of the track. So guys dont give up on Puke...I will push my barra for you to see if I can swing any weight to get the "inside" barriers maybe moved for the non Aussie meetings. Which should see a bit of off track parking should you break down..........These are by the way only my views. And as someone earlier mentioned...some of the driving standards from our boys need to be looked at before they are looked at if you get my drift. If you want to ask me anything that I can touch base on go for it ...but keep it seemly and constructive....Thanks for hearing me out. Kind regards, Tony Rutherford.

[Carlo]

Hang on Tony, you are starting to use facts, knowledge and common sense here and that puts you in breach of just about every known rule of motorsport forums.

[Rod Grimwood]

Carlo, Knowledge is a big word for Tony you might have to explain it to him, and as for commom sense, well he knows what a 'fact' is.

[John McKechnie]

Those big barras make quite a big part of the track hard to park the car off the track , get out safely and almost impossible to climb over these high barriers.-as the drivers are told to exit the car when stopped on the track.
So shifting them would be excellent common sense

[Jizim]

Those big barras make quite a big part of the track hard to park the car off the track , get out safely and almost impossible to climb over these high barriers.-as the drivers are told to exit the car when stopped on the track.
So shifting them would be excellent common sense
Yep hear ya guys loud and clear....pretty sure we all on the same page here. Hey Drifty...keep me in loop if these pages get a bit restless again. Kind regards, Tony Rutherford..

[George Sheweiry]

As a racer, personally I don't see any of it as an advantage to me. Basically I think they f#^*+D my home track!!!! And as usual they wont do anything to fix it!

[Rod Grimwood]

As a racer, personally I don't see any of it as an advantage to me. Basically I think they f#^*+D my home track!!!! And as usual they wont do anything to fix it!



George do not despair, a dickie bird told me that a couple of wheels have actually turned a revolution and hopefully will keep turning, we are fairly lucky that there are a couple of reasonable roosters involved and they have both experience and common sense on there side, lets hope they have success in there endevours.

[George Sheweiry]

Well I certainly wont hold my breath Rod, but to me that track is a NZ icon and it needs to be kept and was my favourite 1st equal with Baypark, and then Teratonga, probably just getting too long in the tooth!

[Malcolm McLeod]

Well Tony, if you get the flag points sorted out so we can park our vehicles a bit closer, and make sure that we get reasonable lunch breaks, and improve the flag points (easier access and some shelter), and ensure that there are some soft drinks available at the end of racing for us marshalls that have a couple of hours driving to get home.....then I shall return and eat humble pie in front of Anna!!!! Malcolm


Just a couple of things guys before you all go off a form a lynch mob....as I said early I thought the drainage issues were being sorted...well in fact they have. It did rain on the super tourer weekend and there was no puddling at all through the new turns 5, 6 and 7. So something is and has been done. As far as the Honda one hour race goes....the moment the first car went in just before the hairpin...the Safety Car was deployed and immediately the race was red flagged. There were a further seven cars that went in at near on the same place. Now I have done more competition miles around Pukekohe than most people I can think of and I have only ever seen a water bomb like this once before and that was at a six hour race. I favour wet weather driving and used to do a rain dance before meetings...but these weather bombs dump more water at one time and I can tell you the the track even before these upgrades with that amount of water on it has or had the same effect....there were eight or nine cars off at the pin back then! It all comes down to driving to the conditions. We could go another ten years and not see weather like that again....apart from the barriers down the back straight and the track being widened at turn one (a lot of folk dont know this..) and of course the new turns everything is the same as before. Me...personally....well I didnt really like the fact that they were changing the layout...in fact I would have preferred the old B & H layout where you hang a left on the front straight...but now I have gotten several laps and seemingly a hell of a lot more to come...under my belt, well I like it it. I have worked out the best line to take turn 6 (particularly in the wet) and if you dont you make turn 7 into a tighter corner as you witnessed the Honda's doing.......and that is on a high part of the track. So guys dont give up on Puke...I will push my barra for you to see if I can swing any weight to get the "inside" barriers maybe moved for the non Aussie meetings. Which should see a bit of off track parking should you break down..........These are by the way only my views. And as someone earlier mentioned...some of the driving standards from our boys need to be looked at before they are looked at if you get my drift. If you want to ask me anything that I can touch base on go for it ...but keep it seemly and constructive....Thanks for hearing me out. Kind regards, Tony Rutherford.

[Kiwiboss]

Well I certainly wont hold my breath Rod, but to me that track is a NZ icon and it needs to be kept and was my favourite 1st equal with Baypark, and then Teratonga, probably just getting too long in the tooth!

Im with you George which although not my favorite track, its still a NZ icon like you say!! Im not sure of the ownership details but i can only guess that the wrong people own it "Horsee racing club i presume" and if that's the case they will want maximum "income" for the least amount of "expense" and in the meantime if cars get written off, hell!!! drive slower will be there answer i guess? but in the meantime please pay up!!

The real shame with Puke is that unlike most historic old race tracks, the likes of Laguna Sega for instance that have had "national Historic" status added to the land and its use!! they're allowed 7 open exhaust weekends per year which gets used up by the historic fraternity. I first went to Laguna in 1984 and have seen many upgrades and changes over time, this track has had modern safety added along with better facility's and so on and with housing getting closer this famous track was once on the brink of closure, can't say the same for puke. So what can be done to save Puke? light industrial is already on the northern boundary!!

Dale M

[CUSTAXIE50]

Well I certainly wont hold my breath Rod, but to me that track is a NZ icon and it needs to be kept and was my favourite 1st equal with Baypark, and then Teratonga, probably just getting too long in the tooth!

Levin, Puke,the old Manfeild with the tin fence along the back ,and Baypark when Graham Mcrae was out there with his F5000.But as we know Levin is gone they are building new houses on it now. Baypark gone,i dont think HD will get up there with the likes of Puke, Levin,Manfeild or Baypark so we do have to keep tracks like Puke going time will tell.

[paul lancaster]

Hi Carlos, as you know, we had similar problems at levels a couple of seasons ago,ala, john McIntyre and clan going in the wall through the kink, now called the ice rink, on the run down the front straight.which has now been remedied .as a drainlayer, yes you are right, if the ground water height is high, or the ground holds water, and not free draining, there is still ways to improve the situation, not knowing too much about the construction, or work above and below ground(soil type etc), I am only going on what I have seen on tv and YouTube, but lets say for instance, the ground is saturated, a combination of novacoil pipe running into collection sumps/tanks, then pumped away from the troubled areas to a outfall or soakpit/pond, there is always away around these problems, and my guess is that there wasn't much thought gone into it, perhaps the concrete barriers on the left side going in to the hairpin need a series of holes bored through them to allow water to flow away from the track, I don't know,.but obviously some more work is required,.although I live in timaru, I will put my hand up and offer my services to help fix the situation, levels is my first love, but like lots of people have said, puke is an icon in nz motorsport.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Hi Carlos, as you know, we had similar problems at levels a couple of seasons ago,ala, john McIntyre and clan going in the wall through the kink, now called the ice rink, on the run down the front straight.which has now been remedied .as a drainlayer, yes you are right, if the ground water height is high, or the ground holds water, and not free draining, there is still ways to improve the situation, not knowing too much about the construction, or work above and below ground(soil type etc), I am only going on what I have seen on tv and YouTube, but lets say for instance, the ground is saturated, a combination of novacoil pipe running into collection sumps/tanks, then pumped away from the troubled areas to a outfall or soakpit/pond, there is always away around these problems, and my guess is that there wasn't much thought gone into it, perhaps the concrete barriers on the left side going in to the hairpin need a series of holes bored through them to allow water to flow away from the track, I don't know,.but obviously some more work is required,.although I live in timaru, I will put my hand up and offer my services to help fix the situation, levels is my first love, but like lots of people have said, puke is an icon in nz motorsport.

What a joke at what i saw on tv3 sport today with the ST race,and the walls around the place do they think someone is going to steal the place.

[ERC]

Just a safety query. Given that we have several drivers well past the first flush of youth, assuming you have to park against the barriers on the back straight, how on earth do you climb to safety? Or maybe the safety car has to be deployed with any and every minor hiccup, thus giving Tony more laps, but potentially, totally stuffing up every handicap race?

Just for starters, it looks to me that they need to not only shift the barriers back, but also remove the catch fencing along the top, where it isn't required. (ie where there are no spectators in the vicinity.)

[Rod Grimwood]

The Dickie Bird has flapped a couple of wings and deposited some information in right direction and hopefully the wheels will keep turning.
Apparently some drainage has already been looked at so lets wait and see.


After watching the Super Dodgems on TV3, Those concrete barriers have to go, especially down the back straight, what do they do except block spectators vision but more importantly expose broken down cars (and as ERC says broken down drivers) to danger by leaving no where to pull off.
Also get them off from the hairpin to start finish line and away from sweeper.
That should just about cover it.

Also the Dickie bird explained why no live coverage, it is a ridiculous amount they want for live coverage and Super Tourers management feel it is better spent among other class's. Sounds good to me if this is true, a very positive step.

[nzeder]

So lets see if I get this right, SkyTV or TVNZ, TV3 have to purchase the rights to motorsport events like F1, MotoGP etc yet local motorsport have to pay them to get any coverage??? WHAT THE F
While having b about TV coverage why is it when we pay SkyTV do we get commercials and not just self promotion stuff I would think if the have commercials then we should not have to pay for the service.....or just have no ads other than self promotion like when it first started.

[CUSTAXIE50]

The Dickie Bird has flapped a couple of wings and deposited some information in right direction and hopefully the wheels will keep turning.
Apparently some drainage has already been looked at so lets wait and see.


After watching the Super Dodgems on TV3, Those concrete barriers have to go, especially down the back straight, what do they do except block spectators vision but more importantly expose broken down cars (and as ERC says broken down drivers) to danger by leaving no where to pull off.
Also get them off from the hairpin to start finish line and away from sweeper.
That should just about cover it.

Also the Dickie bird explained why no live coverage, it is a ridiculous amount they want for live coverage and Super Tourers management feel it is better spent among other class's. Sounds good to me if this is true, a very positive step. TV3 last weekend,yes you could see the water on the track & the puke river,you could also see that wall at the sweeper as they turn right,a tin top driver may get away with it and still have his legs.But say a f5000went in on full song think of that for a minute.

[beowulf]

TV3 last weekend,yes you could see the water on the track & the puke river,you could also see that wall at the sweeper as they turn right,a tin top driver may get away with it and still have his legs.But say a f5000went in on full song think of that for a minute.

Pukekohe rears its ugly head again. I see the the Super Tourers are not going to open their series due to drainage problems and car damage. Going to Hampton Downs instead.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Pukekohe rears its ugly head again. I see the the Super Tourers are not going to open their series due to drainage problems and car damage. Going to Hampton Downs instead. So what has been done so far about this water on the track.

[John McKechnie]

Yes, Custaxie50, I agree with you that some public relations in regards water and drainage is needed.

[928]

I have been reliably informed that summer is coming and therefore the water will evaporate...lol

[Rod Grimwood]

Heard some one went to meeting (club I believe), paid entry 3 races, of 6 laps and did total of 9 laps racing and rest following around infile, or red flag and thats it. Wall damage and because cars were on track with no where to pull off or go, real good.
So with practice (4 laps as long as no one stops) and 9 race laps expensive per lap. Mind you think of the savings on tyres, petrol, engine.
If you want mileage, get a job driving safety car, it does most.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Heard some one went to meeting (club I believe), paid entry 3 races, of 6 laps and did total of 9 laps racing and rest following around infile, or red flag and thats it. Wall damage and because cars were on track with no where to pull off or go, real good.
So with practice (4 laps as long as no one stops) and 9 race laps expensive per lap. Mind you think of the savings on tyres, petrol, engine.
If you want mileage, get a job driving safety car, it does most. What i want to hear is have they put the time and money into stopping the water getting on to the track.

[Rod Grimwood]

Most probably waiting for summer, that will fix it.

[John McKechnie]

What i want to hear is have they put the time and money into stopping the water getting on to the track.

Does this answer your question- headline in todays Herald-

Racing: Rain the key to chances at Pukekohe.Okay, let's take the positive approach and say, for the sake of this column, it will rain at Pukekohe Park for the Counties meeting..Whether it rains will be the difference between eye fillet and supermarket sausages for dinner next week.

If its wet they will be needing spatulas to scrape the Historic Sports Sedans off the walls, and what will the owners be eating to afford to fix their valuable cars.

[Rod Grimwood]

Sorry but when mine is ready it will not be going there, and I loved the place way back.

[John McKechnie]

Thats a big call Rod,understand completely, I am sure many others feel the same.

[Rod Grimwood]

Thats a big call Rod,understand completely, I am sure many others feel the same.

Right John, but heard and seen to much from the concrete and at least you have a sporting chance if you wander a bit wide at other places, which we tend to do some times.

[John McKechnie]

Trouble is that you, and others who feel this way,are not going to influence the decision makers into doing what is sensible

[Rod Grimwood]

Par for the coarse, but we have to make decisions some times, and thats my feeling about the place now and every one else will have there's as is their right.
I don't have lotto backing me so am very conscious of any damage/expense and want to give myself a sporting chance. Maybe a bit gun shy after my biff in rally car which is hurting pocket as well, and that was my fault no one else's.

[bob homewood]

Would be 100 % with you on that one Grimmy,as you probably know of old ,I am brave but not stupid ,no one is going to stomp up up and help with costs when you demolish it ,I went to, two club meetings at the end of last season spectating at Puke ,both were basically wash outs ,its bad enough loosing your money just for admittance as a spectator ,let alone paying a entry fee for the chances of half a days racing ,or doing heaps of damage on a whole lot of water that has got no where to go

[John McKechnie]

So are you both going Escort jiving at Hampton Downs in the very near future?

[Rod Grimwood]

Hopefully

[John McKechnie]

And remember jiving is 176 beats per minute.....
Found the motor under all the stuff at the back of the garage yet , Rod?

[GD66]

You would think they'd get their finger out and get it sorted, if the corrupt wankers, I mean V8Supercars admin get to hear of it and there's a chance of their championship round being compromised by on-track standing water, they would be extremely upset, and when they get cranky there are often lawyers involved...

[Rod Grimwood]

Just trying to sort a dry sump system out for it John, if you know where there may be one lying around give me a yell. (2ltr Pinto block) Taking all brakes off for refresh (only done in 1993 and not moved), then start on body (mine as well)

[John McKechnie]

Rod- by putting a yell here for the dry sump, something may appear.
Just sorted out one for my XA.
By doing a dry sump, you are definitely getting ready for HD.
BTW- what happened to the one off the motor?
Would an accumulator be suitable here?
Car body will be easier and cheaper to get into shape than human body
Bog is cheaper than botox

[Rod Grimwood]

Got a big sump with gates etc, but HD is dry sump territory

[John McKechnie]

Got mine from Shane Johnson at Segedins- possibility here?

[bob homewood]

Bite the bullet Rod ,and buy a decent one ,in the long run it will be cheaper than a engine rebuild
Got a big sump with gates etc, but HD is dry sump territory

[John McKechnie]

Yeah, Rod, imagine if St Nick refused you an entry through the Pearly Gates because you had not been a good boy to your engines.
BTW walking the dog twice a day is good exercise to start getting you back in shape.
Then begin bench pressing Austin 7 cranks -Oldfart will loan you one-working your way up to 1500 Cortina and finally 272 Boatanchor crank. You wont need power steering then.

[Rod Grimwood]

It's got armstrong power steering already, think I will walk by myself and save my sinus's, saves stopping at every bush/post for sniff and pee and bringing hot takeaways back for the rubbish bin.

yea doing some looking in pom land now Bob, if you have contacts or supplier drop me line mate.

Cheers

[John McKechnie]

Rod- have sent you a pm.

[Rod Grimwood]

Did not seem to get it at home last night John

grimmie64@xtra.co.nz

[John McKechnie]

Did not seem to get it at home last night John

grimmie64@xtra.co.nz

Rod-Have sent now, mate.

[John McKechnie]

In relation to safety fences, I have just been reading about the "Syd Jensen" design when he was in charge at Levin in the 70s .
Jim Richards GTHO was saved from major head on damage, and several Formula As including Frank Gardner also had minor damage.
These seem to be a much safer impact resistant than the current concrete canyons.
Is anyone from Levin or racing at that time have any memories of its effectiveness?
Basically was a sliding mesh fence

[Grant Ellwood]

In relation to safety fences, I have just been reading about the "Syd Jensen" design when he was in charge at Levin in the 70s .
Jim Richards GTHO was saved from major head on damage, and several Formula As including Frank Gardner also had minor damage.
These seem to be a much safer impact resistant than the current concrete canyons.
Is anyone from Levin or racing at that time have any memories of its effectiveness?
Basically was a sliding mesh fence

I was pleased Syd didn't make the fence too high as I was able to leap it inverted in a Formula Ford without getting my head caught in the netting.

[John McKechnie]

Grant- and if if wasnt that fence, instead ,a high Pukekohe concrete barrier what would have happened?

[Grant Ellwood]

Grant- and if if wasnt that fence, instead ,a high Pukekohe concrete barrier what would have happened?

Might have needed a new helmet!

[Grant Sprague]

Grant ,,,,, a bit off the thread ..... not many people know about you & Bob [ex Tga Exhaust shop]building the Ray FF............It was a piece of art ,, you might remember I put my name up for one ,but ended up getting the SI SCANZ car after Bob got very sick .. Kind Regards Grant ...........

[David McKinney]

In relation to safety fences, I have just been reading about the "Syd Jensen" design when he was in charge at Levin in the 70s .
Jim Richards GTHO was saved from major head on damage, and several Formula As including Frank Gardner also had minor damage.
These seem to be a much safer impact resistant than the current concrete canyons.
Is anyone from Levin or racing at that time have any memories of its effectiveness?
Basically was a sliding mesh fence
Similar memories to yours, John
What I do remember is the overseas drivers being very anti about it when they first saw. ISTR Gardner was particularly vocal - until after he'd involuntarily tried it out
The system wasn't used for long - don't know why

[Grant Ellwood]

Grant ,,,,, a bit off the thread ..... not many people know about you & Bob [ex Tga Exhaust shop]building the Ray FF............It was a piece of art ,, you might remember I put my name up for one ,but ended up getting the SI SCANZ car after Bob got very sick .. Kind Regards Grant ...........

Hi Grant, Bob Kiddle was a great welder and fabricator. That deal with Ray UK to build cars under license in NZ just fell apart when Bob passed away. Initially we imported a complete new UK car for Mike Hannel and used that car to make the jigs. The second (NZ) car went to Australia, did pretty well as far as I can recall. Jigs remained In NZ, Russ Cunningham probably knows exactly where the various bits and pieces are! Shame you didn't do the single-seater route, like JR would have been a successful experience I'm sure.

[225sloper]

This is what happens with these concrete barriers now,this is coming on to the back straight,this car would of just spun round on the grass and then been able to carry on with no damage or possible injury.20714207152071620717

[GD66]

Don't wish to divert the thread here, but just how much can you see from the hill stand now of Railway, or of the back straight for that matter?
A couple of years ago the V8 oligarchs stamped and postured, and demanded they turn the stadium part of Wanneroo into a concrete canyon like this, and now you can see bugger-all, at what used to be a great spectator circuit.
Bastards.

[John McKechnie]

It is an absolute canyon.
When the car stops ,rules say you must exit the car- so where the hell do you go, cant climb over the fence with that overhang

[Rod Grimwood]

GD66 You are not diverting the thread at all, this is what it started about and one of the gripes with the concrete crap and fences, you can not see nothing but roofs. As shown above, just roots cars when there is no need as seen above. I have seen (and done it myself) a lot of cars spin here get on grass gather it together and head on off down the track with nothing but damaged pride. (oh and little skiddy marks on grass, so what)
These photos sum up the utter balls up they have made with the left over rubbish from Hamilton that they had to put somewhere, well I suggest a good place to put them would be up the arse kyourmother for sixpence of the morons who insisted on them being there in the first place. I will gladly donate to the drum of Vaseline and even hire a front end loader to it.
Yep sorry but I am pissed with this whole set up

[Rod Grimwood]

This was in practice back in early 80s, Guy still walks properly now, gathered it up on grass and headed off down straight for another go. Imagine if he did this now. Mind you he wouldn't do this now as he will not go near the place in anything and not even to sit in hill stand will chilly bin because 1 you can't have a chilly bin any more, 2 you can only see a little bit of track and is not interested in looking at roofs.
Concrete and strategically placed bridges are just awesome for viewing.

[rogered]

http://youtu.be/hStcyDj830Q
impact obsorbing barriers at work:)

[Racer Rog]

Put a idiot in a car that is a triumph of engineering over design and thats what you get, I think he wet his pants, but we will never know!
Roger

[Malcolm McLeod]

I think the design of those barriers didn't help....
Incidently, some of the unused Hamilton barriers are now in the Waioeka Gorge, protecting bits of SH2 from rockfalls.....

[Frosty5]

I think the design of those barriers didn't help....
Incidently, some of the unused Hamilton barriers are now in the Waioeka Gorge, protecting bits of SH2 from rockfalls.....

There are also some doing the same job just south of Mokau on the way to New Plymouth painted with Holden on them which were used on the Founders theatre corner for the ITM 400 at Hamilton. What a deal Cochrane and his cronies got and they didn't use them all. Perhaps a ploy to prevent HD from getting their hands on them. Another underarm incident!!!

Dave Graham

[Rod Grimwood]

Can we get in touch with the LTNZ and tell them to take the rest from Pukekohe for the gorges, be helping 2 lots out. The NZ motorist/tourist on the road and motorsport at the track.

[928]

what do you mean Rod? Len bought those cause the aussies said he needed them.They are a great investment in auckland infrastucture

[woody]

First G P there.

[woody]

50 years ago.

[CUSTAXIE50]

what do you mean Rod? Len bought those cause the aussies said he needed them.They are a great investment in auckland infrastucture Len Brown...WELL that ONE on that boat will not be giving Len that cup thats for real.

[woody]

Does not sound like the first G P went too well.

[RogerH]

I raced a Puke at the weekend for the first time since the "improvements".

The concrete walls were a bit daunting for the first few laps but after that they didn't seem too much of a worry (although you wouldn't want to hit them).

The new chicane on the back straight took a bit of getting use to. In a single seater it is impossible to see the apex of the first right hander - by the time you see it is too late to turn in. We found that the idea was to get on the brakes at a braking marker (with us just past the 100m board) and then pick a line on the track surface to start your turn in. It was actually quite an interesting section of the track and a pleasant change from just blasting down the straight. It did seem to mean that passing opportunities at the hairpin were reduced.

The worst thing was the bumps leading into and through turn one. These are much worse than before and our cars were really getting thrown around - bruises on my legs today where they were thrown against the spaceframe.

Wouldn't like to try it in the wet - a few guys had run in the wet recently and said they would never do it again.

The noise police were there with their dubious decibel readers and sent at least one guy packing off home.

[George Sheweiry]

I also raced on Puke for the first time since the changes. I ran my Trans am Camaro and the chicane wasn't a problem for that type of car although I still prefer the original layout. Of the 30 odd laps that I did none were the same through the chicane, but I guess eventually I will find a preferred line. I was on old tires that were old when I got the car about 6yrs ago. They took 3 laps in practice before they finally got some grip but in the first race because I missed practice with the class had to start from the back of the grid and by lap 4 I had been working it up faster and faster till I came out of the hairpin and noticed the back move around slightly then as I turned in to the first left hander she just kept on turning in. I had a fair wack of speed on by then so I had to jump on the picks and leave them on and just concentrate on steering angles as it spun because the wall was so close. Normally I would have been on and off the brakes as well to try and get it back facing the right way and just carry on. So I guess that is one of the aspects of the new track, anyway chucked on another set of "black vinyl" in place of the 4 flat spotted tires and finished the day off semi cautiously. The place certainly has a more corporate feel to it now but then the familiar smiling faces of the marshal's and the flaggies helped tone the apprehensions. I am from the old school and I always put my hand in a stop sign up outside the car high to show I have finished racing , have reduced speed and are returning to the pits, as I cruise back past each flag post the flaggies always give you a wave so I change my hand signal to a pointer and point it a them as I go by to show my appreciation for them and our comradery for the sport.

[Rod Grimwood]

I also raced on Puke for the first time since the changes. I ran my Trans am Camaro and the chicane wasn't a problem for that type of car although I still prefer the original layout. Of the 30 odd laps that I did none were the same through the chicane, but I guess eventually I will find a preferred line. I was on old tires that were old when I got the car about 6yrs ago. They took 3 laps in practice before they finally got some grip but in the first race because I missed practice with the class had to start from the back of the grid and by lap 4 I had been working it up faster and faster till I came out of the hairpin and noticed the back move around slightly then as I turned in to the first left hander she just kept on turning in. I had a fair wack of speed on by then so I had to jump on the picks and leave them on and just concentrate on steering angles as it spun because the wall was so close. Normally I would have been on and off the brakes as well to try and get it back facing the right way and just carry on. So I guess that is one of the aspects of the new track, anyway chucked on another set of "black vinyl" in place of the 4 flat spotted tires and finished the day off semi cautiously. The place certainly has a more corporate feel to it now but then the familiar smiling faces of the marshal's and the flaggies helped tone the apprehensions. I am from the old school and I always put my hand in a stop sign up outside the car high to show I have finished racing , have reduced speed and are returning to the pits, as I cruise back past each flag post the flaggies always give you a wave so I change my hand signal to a pointer and point it a them as I go by to show my appreciation for them and our comradery for the sport.

So right about the flaggies and marshalls George, they always deserve at least a wave, they do a great job.

[Rod Grimwood]

Now, what was the casualty rate at this meeting, a guy who is totally new to motorsport tells me it was his first time there for a look and a big car demolished itself on left 'wall' in turn one straight after starting. There used to be a big grass area there, never saw that hurt a car. After listening to the description of how it happened, may be lost traction on a 'new' bump and skewed of into wall.

Can someone who was there fill in on what happened. cheers

This guy has just bought a very nice little (quick) car and had been at Hampton on Wednesday night for a introduction to motorsport and enjoyed it. Watched sons play at Hampton on Saturday and dropped into Puke to have a look on way home on Sunday, said he spoke to a couple of guy's with similar cars and they said it was pretty bumpy around turn one.

[ERC]

The noise police were there with their dubious decibel readers and sent at least one guy packing off home.
This weekend's NZGP Classic, two day meeting, looks like now being a one day (Saturday only) meeting.
I sent a quick email out to try and get more entries and had one reply stating that although he believes his car isn't loud, he (and others with the same feeling) having been pinged, have no intention of racing again at Puke until these "dubious decibel readers" are gone. The emphasis is on dubious.
Sadly, this means that our series entries will be depleted and therefore organisers of events here need to be aware that there are drivers/cars around who have been racing for years who just will not enter.
With the ever increasing costs of running a meeting, no club outfit can run at a loss for long.

[Carlo]

This weekend's NZGP Classic, two day meeting, looks like now being a one day (Saturday only) meeting.
I sent a quick email out to try and get more entries and had one reply stating that although he believes his car isn't loud, he (and others with the same feeling) having been pinged, have no intention of racing again at Puke until these "dubious decibel readers" are gone. The emphasis is on dubious.
Sadly, this means that our series entries will be depleted and therefore organisers of events here need to be aware that there are drivers/cars around who have been racing for years who just will not enter.
With the ever increasing costs of running a meeting, no club outfit can run at a loss for long.

Perhaps if people had been applying the rules of Motorsport NZ and enforcing the noise emission regulations since they were first introduced back in the late 1980's early 1990's you would not be having the issues you face now. The blatant disregard for the regulations contained in the Motosport NZ manual by users of circuits has caused the issue. It has been very irresponsible.

[Oldfart]

Carlo, you may well be right, however I am sure that you are aware that, like dynamometers, all noise meters are not equal, and the method of use can give very different readings. It would seem that a number of cars which have been checked elsewhere (in some cases multiple different checks at different venues), and from what I have been told, in accordance with the manufacturers instructions, fail with the Pukekohe meters.
If that is the case, where to from there? ERC has mentioned the "dubious" Western Springs was another where cars had been checked "properly" and then get pinged?

[GD66]

As well as being a Clerk of Course, Steward and track inspector for Motorcycling Australia, I am also a Sound Control Officer, and the meters we use have to be calibrated at the start of each meeting, but the major factor is that we record ride-by readings at 30 metres from the track, bearing in mind that the accuracy of the readings can be influenced by concrete walls, banks, bush, trees, buildings, other noise sources and wind. I doubt there are many parts of Pukekohe that don't have at least one of those outside influences, so the readings may well be polluted. In the event of a static test, again readings must be taken where concrete, buildings, external noise, wind etc don't influence the recording, so these things have to be considered when noting results.
In MA's favour, they have decided to act early and monitor sound readings themselves, before other outside busybodies and fun police like the EPA poke their noses in and decide they'll close things down for the greater good.

[Jac Mac]

Good chance that all the 'new' hardware around Puke might be having an effect on the noise values recorded at recent meetings.

[Carlo]

As GD66 states, there are number of factors that can influence readings but the test criteria including location as in the distance from the race line, height of meter above ground level, upwards inclination in degrees of the meter above horizontal and clear areas both in front of the test location and all of these behind the location are very clearly documented in the test procedures. For heavens sake you can not stand directly behind the meter or you will influence the readings, that too is spelt out.
At our circuit the club now sends it's own person to undertake the trackside testing as it has been proven by past experience that some outside hirers of the facility have not been 100% up to the task.
Then of course there are the noise emissions from the property that are monitored by the District Council, in our case there are three set test locations off the property where the council test at our expense to ensure that we do not exceed the Resource Consent. Should we continue to run without exceeding the motorsport NZ noise level of 95dba then we stay under our Council imposed limits at the property boundary and at various other off site locations.

Anyone running their car close to 95dba on a clear sunny day after a week of fine weather will be in deep trouble after overnight rain and overcast conditions as their noise will go up by around 2 to 2.5dba simply because of the moisture content of the ground and the low cloud does not allow the sound to be absorbed by the ground or disperse higher up into the atmosphere. Simple advice to all competitors, if you car exceeds 92dba, go do something about it then you will not get caught out by weather conditions. To organisers, review how you conduct the practise, be accurate in your measurements and enforce the requirements.

[Carlo]

Good chance that all the 'new' hardware around Puke might be having an effect on the noise values recorded at recent meetings.

Good point Jack. You may remember when we extended the centre embankment and the Armco down the front straight at Timaru, we ended up getting a sound bump from cars changing gear as they came out of the corner onto the front straight and we had to narrow down the field to an area of about 70 metres in length of track from where we accepted the readings as this bump in the reading was having absolutely no effect at the property boundary or off site test areas and it was just a result of the echo effect between the embankment and the Armco of the occasional backfire during the gearshift.

[928]

noise at race tracks should be measured at the boundary of the grounds (where the general public have acess) and no where else. the reading should be averaged over the duration of the race and ALL spikes discarded. readings taken within the grounds are of no use to anyone except idiots who think they are in charge. as a spectator you paid to get in knowing that the event generated noise. should you not like the noise then leave. just my thoughts on the matter

[Oldfart]

Well said 928, the readings at the Springs are supposed to be that, but the council (I have been told) also require trackside, opposite the concrete wall which gives a great noise reflection!

[ERC]

RogerH has sent me an email that clarifies exactly what the problem is and it appears to be that MSNZ and the local council requirements as to the procedures are not aligned.
Totally agree with 928 but I question the impact the noise actually has at any given point - and the duration.
Most meetings running 8 lap races means no better than 3 races per hour. As most races (at the old Pukekohe) were only about 10 minutes long anyway, then only 50% of the hour are any cars circulating at full chat - and in scratch races, they may well be bunched at one part of the track, particularly with the smaller grids at many meetings.
If anyone has lived and worked within the Heathrow flight paths, then you'd know what real noise is!
Last week, a family member was talking about a boy band concert where even the young girls had their hands over their ears, some quite visibly suffering a degree of pain, so don't noise limits apply to concerts and other outdoor events or is MSNZ and/or the council trying to enforce a level that is just too tough?
With many cars being road cars anyway, I'd challenge that the few cars that are outside the 95Db limit have a relatively minor environmental impact, especially when famously compared to the volume of the dawn chorus, plus local lawn mowers, leaf blowers and chain saws.

[Carlo]

If I heard the numbers correctly the highest reading at Timaru last weekend, be it Mazda RX7, V8 Touring car, Mini 7, Porsche or any other vehicle racing during the weekend was 91.2dba.
When TranZam racing was at it's peak most were running around 93dba and some were as quiet as 88dba. Adverse weather conditions did sometimes send crews into a bit of a panic as they repacked their mufflers so as to get back out onto the circuit during testing sessions.

ERC it is the attitude of people such as yourself who want to compare apples with chocolate fish as part of their argument that have caused most of the noise related issues that circuit owners now face. Get over it and comply so that we and future generations can all enjoy our sport. Stop being selfish and just get on with it, save your energy for something you can win and don't fight or create lost causes.

You do a magic job with your race series and I know that it is very disappointing when you don't get the entries you deserve but things happen for reasons rather than excuses and many competitors will use an excuse such as noise limits as an excuse when really the reason is simply that they no longer have the passion to race like they once did and the event is no longer a priority for them.

Lets trust that you get a great turnout for Saturday.

[ERC]

If I heard the numbers correctly the highest reading at Timaru last weekend, be it Mazda RX7, V8 Touring car, Mini 7, Porsche or any other vehicle racing during the weekend was 91.2dba.
When TranZam racing was at it's peak most were running around 93dba and some were as quiet as 88dba. Adverse weather conditions did sometimes send crews into a bit of a panic as they repacked their mufflers so as to get back out onto the circuit during testing sessions.

Stop being selfish and just get on with it, save your energy for something you can win and don't fight or create lost causes.


Those figures are low and therein lies the problem. Are those test results comparing apples with chocolate fish in terms of location, weather, surrounding buildings, topography, etc. because if not...

Fighting lost causes to you is fighting injustices/unfairness for me! Win some, lose some, but not standing up for what you believe in makes it easier for the bureaucrats to ride roughshod over common sense. I hate this sanitized cotton wool protection from cradle to grave. When the day comes, I'd like my epitaph to read "At least I wasn't strangled by the red tape..."

Drivers are not using excuses, they are quoting their reasons for not competing. We'd be foolish to ignore them. Maybe when we are all forced into racing hybrids, or electric cars, someone will stand back and say "How the heck did we allow this to happen?" Noise is an integral part of the appeal of motorsport.

[Kwaussie]

Noise control at circuits was something that I spent a lot of time dealing with from 1999 up until 2010. It was so difficult on one hand but so rewarding when you could get it right. We spent lots of money on the best equipment, lots more on appeals to VCAT and hours and hours dealing with various planning managers [six in eleven years] from local shire council.
When you can get your clubs and competitors on side and they realise that to move forward you have to have some form of noise control in place so much the better.
The ultimate is to have a workable planning permit issued for the site and be able to manage that, with no outside influence that could harm your operations.

[RogerH]

With noise monitoring, part of the problem is that Pukekohe Park uses the methodology contained in the MSNZ Manual. This MSNZ regulation is :

"No vehicle may exceed 95 db(A). The measurement shall be taken 30 metres at a right angle from the track at a point where the vehicle is at maximum power. No compensation for differing climatic conditions shall be applied".

One of the problems with this is that MSNZ specifically excludes compensation for any climatic conditions. This stance is inconsistent with published New Zealand Standards and international procedures such as Nordtest.

Even Auckland Council in their noise monitoring of Western Springs Speedway note :

"Auckland Council Report on Noise Monitoring Western Springs Speedway" - "…. in addition to noise monitoring, meteorological conditions such as wind speed are observed. This is essential information to collect as weather conditions have a significant impact on noise levels.".

New Zealand Standards note that noise monitoring should only occur when the wind speed is between 0 and 5 m/s.

Against all of this MSNZ ignore all climatic conditions and this is likely to mean that results from using their methodology are suspect.

Additionally MSNZ's methodology ignores other accepted influencing factors such as road generated noise, residual noise, reflective noise from adjacent structures and amplified noise from hard surfaces (asphalt roads).

[Kwaussie]

The MSNZ regulation is so similar to the planning permit that I mentioned in my earlier post - but the position of the measuring site must be approved by a registered acoustic engineer. These guys really know their stuff and will give you a point that will satisfy any authority.
In most events any variation caused by wind direction, low cloud, smoke! etc can easily be verified by cross referencing with previous sound records and would not be a problem with the authority.
The one vehicle that caused me more concern prior to an event was the Gould GR55B with Nicholson NME V8 - came in at 93 db[A]

[928]

MSNZ should not have anything to do with noise within the grounds of a race track. It is a local issue only. cars doing rallies are already covered by exsisting road traffic law. as for taking readings during a race they are dreaming. I would be getting any noise regulation taken out of the manual ASAP. if i was running a circuit I would be making the point to the local council that complaints will only be measured at the boundary as i have already made clear.

[rf84]

The point about noise readings being taken at the boundary of the circuit is a salient one. As the rules stand at the moment a circuit built in a very isolated location (e.g. the Army training area on the Desert Road) could breach the noise restrictions even though the nearest "neighbours" are many kilometres away and can't even hear the cars.

[928]

only if a complaint is made.

[RogerH]

It is interesting with the noise at Pukekohe that the necessity to monitor is an Auckland Council (previously Franklin District Council) requirement in relation to noise disturbances with neighbours. As 928 correctly says, it should be tested at the boundary - not in the middle of a race track. A noise at 95 dB in the middle of a track will be less if tested at the boundary.

The problem is that Pukekohe uses the MSNZ criteria which is does not meet by a long way the standards that Council usually adopt for noise monitoring - these are NZS 6801:2008, NZS 6802:2008 and NZS 6806:2010.

Additionally, the testing position at Pukekohe (as far as I can ascertain) is at turn 6 which probably means that in order to be 30m from the edge of the track, the monitoring is taken through the concrete barriers and wire mesh fencing the surround the track.

We ran a meeting at Pukekohe in early October - the first we had run on the new track. It was a bit of a test to see what things were like and whether we would go back again. We had problems with noise monitoring and had a competitor excluded. This resulted in a complaint being made to us from the competitor and as a result we have had to take this up with Pukekohe, Auckland Council and by the look of it MSNZ.

We also had a small turn out of entrants and a number told us they wouldn't run at Pukekohe due to the track re-configuration and noise issues. No doubt we will take all these hassles on board when we decide if we will hire the track again.

Maybe Pukekohe will be forced to do something to sort this issue if their track bookings start to fall off.

[ERC]

Thanks Roger. I was hoping you'd respond. Any comment Carlo, seeing as you think that I am the one in the wrong?

This is a serious issue and if it isn't resolved pretty quickly, we'll be reduced to only running at Hampton Downs with only one meeting a year at Taupo.

Maybe when HD gets its track extension done, we'll have their three track options, plus one Taupo event to spread our races and won't even need Pukekohe to add the variety in what is a minimum of six, maximum of seven races, with the best five to count for points.

Its a great pity that we don't have the annual Whenuapai meeting to look forward to, but that is another story.

[RacerT]

Noise is an interesting issue. We chose the Hampton Downs site after looking at a lot of other areas, such as Helensville, Kaukaupakaupa and the Meremere coal mine quary. Noise was one of the major concerns at every proposed site and it quickly became apparent that the 10 acre block 'Paradise Seekers' were never going to be happy with a nearby circuit - NIMBY's!

The Northern Waikato is sparcely populated and the HD site at the benefit of 1200 acres of Tainui land to the west, 526 acres of Corrections facility to the south, 80 acres of Transit wetland to the north and 530 acres of sheep farm to the east.

Hampton Downs has a noise boundary that extends far from its own boundaries. This is based on the contours of the land surrounding the circuit. All the neighbours within the noise boundary signed of on this noise plan. This took considerable consultation, with many cups of tea and chocolate biscuits! The key to the noise plan is that it is based on the MSNZ 95 decibal rule, 30 metres from the track edge. To add to this, Hampton Downs has a range of days that it can run with varying noise levels. Our noise plan also has quite a degree of contingency in it, so if we have differing weather conditions, we can still comply at the boundary.

Even the 30 metres from the track edge is not definitive enough. I would think that a distance from the middle of the track would be more accurate, because if you take a 12 metre wide track, the cars position on the track can alter the distance to the noise meter by up to 20%.

It doesn't seem to be an exact science! When I was at a Goodwood club meeting in 2001, they were measuring in a static manner with a noise meter behind the exhaust pipe. This obviously takes no account of induction or aerodynamic noise.

A good noise plan with the neighbours buy in is imperative for any circuit to survive. We have many neighbours around Hampton Downs that were consulted and most of these people are supplied with Gold Cards for free access to events as part of our long term strategy.

[Rod Grimwood]

Stop moaning, pull your pants down and bend over and cop it. The 'green do gooders' are right, so they think and have been allowed too much say in all this crap over along time.
928 with you, measure it from the outside boundary and allow for conditions etc.
There is too much of this going on and we are getting shafted by it.
So the 'no smacking' effort is a real winner, 'Yea Right"
No oil of the coast, no mining, all this by dick heads who don't work but live of the tax's from all these products.

Noise at a race track, how terrible, if they don't like it, move on else where and get a life. The tracks were mostly there first. Amazing how a few can stuff it for the majority of people, only because we sit back and let them go on instead of dealing to them. They all have the same hair, beards (some women included) and drive vehicles that pour out diesel fumes or smoke with 'no mining', 'no offshore drilling' etc on back of them.

PS; regarding Puke, the concrete dump will not be helping with noise.

[RogerH]

The 30m issue is very crucial.

The MSNZ regulation is not definitive enough as it just says "The measurement shall be taken 30 metres at a right angle from the track at a point where the vehicle is at maximum power". As Tony says - does this mean 30m from the track edge or 30m from the source of the sound (which could be anywhere from 30m to 42m to the sound microphone).

The sensitivity of this issue is shown by the New Zealand Standard - NZS 6801:2008 which states at 7.2.3 that if the sound source is more than 30m from the microphone, recording can only be undertaken if the wind is in the range of 0 to 5 m/s (5 m/s equates to 18 km/h).

If the MSNZ regulation is interpreted as 30m from the track edge (as I believe is the case at Pukekohe) then the sound source would be more than 30m from the recording microphone. That would mean that all readings taken when the wind is over 5 m/s are unreliable (to the extent that NZS indicates that monitoring should cease).

Against this situation, MSNZ dictates that all climatic conditions should be ignored.


Noise is an interesting issue. We chose the Hampton Downs site after looking at a lot of other areas, such as Helensville, Kaukaupakaupa and the Meremere coal mine quary. Noise was one of the major concerns at every proposed site and it quickly became apparent that the 10 acre block 'Paradise Seekers' were never going to be happy with a nearby circuit - NIMBY's!

The Northern Waikato is sparcely populated and the HD site at the benefit of 1200 acres of Tainui land to the west, 526 acres of Corrections facility to the south, 80 acres of Transit wetland to the north and 530 acres of sheep farm to the east.

Hampton Downs has a noise boundary that extends far from its own boundaries. This is based on the contours of the land surrounding the circuit. All the neighbours within the noise boundary signed of on this noise plan. This took considerable consultation, with many cups of tea and chocolate biscuits! The key to the noise plan is that it is based on the MSNZ 95 decibal rule, 30 metres from the track edge. To add to this, Hampton Downs has a range of days that it can run with varying noise levels. Our noise plan also has quite a degree of contingency in it, so if we have differing weather conditions, we can still comply at the boundary.

Even the 30 metres from the track edge is not definitive enough. I would think that a distance from the middle of the track would be more accurate, because if you take a 12 metre wide track, the cars position on the track can alter the distance to the noise meter by up to 20%.

It doesn't seem to be an exact science! When I was at a Goodwood club meeting in 2001, they were measuring in a static manner with a noise meter behind the exhaust pipe. This obviously takes no account of induction or aerodynamic noise.

A good noise plan with the neighbours buy in is imperative for any circuit to survive. We have many neighbours around Hampton Downs that were consulted and most of these people are supplied with Gold Cards for free access to events as part of our long term strategy.

[928]

racert if you take measurements from the centre of the track surely you are condoning the noise level what ever it is after all you either paid to get there or are being paid to be there. i accept that you have precise knowledge of your situation but disagree with some of your statements. MSNZ must not be involved as they are just another layer of people who will not fight your corner, but will require paying to advise should you get a problem.

[RacerT]

racert if you take measurements from the centre of the track surely you are condoning the noise level what ever it is after all you either paid to get there or are being paid to be there. i accept that you have precise knowledge of your situation but disagree with some of your statements. MSNZ must not be involved as they are just another layer of people who will not fight your corner, but will require paying to advise should you get a problem.

Hi 928. I presume you are saying that noise levels shouldn't be a MSNZ regulation, but should be a council concern, with noise measuring at the boundary? Tony Roberts

[rogered]

Just thinking after reading all this.

A. I thought this noise ruling had been around for a long time, may be 20 years(ish).
B. Why is it suddenly, and currently an issue?
C. How many cars actually have an issue with it?
D. if, say, 5 cars at a meeting, with say 200 entries, are deemed to loud, them I guess they need a muffler. the other 98% need not worry.

oh and dont get me wrong i think that anything (rotarys excluded) should run a straight pipe :)

[rogered]

Just thinking after reading all this.

A. I thought this noise ruling had been around for a long time, may be 20 years(ish).
B. Why is it suddenly, and currently an issue?
C. How many cars actually have an issue with it?
D. if, say, 4 cars at a meeting, with say 200 entries, are deemed to loud, then I guess they need a muffler. The other 98% need not worry.

oh and dont get me wrong i think that anything (rotarys excluded) should run a straight pipe :)

[RogerH]

The MSNZ noise regulations have been around for a long time but in all the years I have been racing I had never come across it actually being monitored until Pukekohe in recent times. For that reason I suppose it has never an issue until now and people are therefore starting to focus for the first time on what the MSNZ regulations actually say.

As a committee member of a club that puts on meetings, the noise monitoring at Pukekohe has become an issue. I think it is having an effect on entries as some people don't want to take the risk of paying their entry fee and then finding they are sent home after one race. They say the monitoring results are variable and they could be OK one weekend and not OK the next.

Also, from an organisers perspective, there is extra hassle in dealing with the noise monitoring process - especially when we end up having to deal with complaints. It is hard enough to put on viable meetings without the extra issues related to noise to deal with.

I was thinking about the matter of boundary noise being the real issue. At Pukekohe the monitoring is done from inside of the track not at the boundary. My car has an exhaust exit on the left hand side and has no muffler - when passing the noise monitoring station the exhaust points towards to boundary of the circuit and the car body shields the noise from the monitoring station. I am sure any noise reading for my car would be much higher if taken at the boundary (where the real issue is). It all seems a bit dumb.




Just thinking after reading all this.

A. I thought this noise ruling had been around for a long time, may be 20 years(ish).
B. Why is it suddenly, and currently an issue?
C. How many cars actually have an issue with it?
D. if, say, 5 cars at a meeting, with say 200 entries, are deemed to loud, them I guess they need a muffler. the other 98% need not worry.

oh and dont get me wrong i think that anything (rotarys excluded) should run a straight pipe :)

[Malcolm McLeod]

Ohhh, I gotta reply to this.... :-)

The people who have the best, um, idea of noise from competing cars are certainly not the drivers, the neighbours, the clerk of the course, event organisers or the track owners......it is us flag marshalls!!!!!!

We are the ones standing right next to the track, the car's exhaust pipes pointing towards us, so if we think it is loud, then it is.......loud!

Now, to give credit where credit is due, I have actually been troubled by very few cars in my fairly short time of flagging, obviously I DO wear hearing protection for most races, depending upon what classes are racing.

In fact, if I recall correctly, the only time I have suffered from PAINFUL noise, was during a sports car race at Pukekohe, where I was at point 4 down the back straight. In fact, I actually reported it officially, however I couldn't work out which car out of a group of 3 it was. As it was, the CoC was unable to action it....I believe Morty said it was because the sound meter was monitoring elsewhere. He did admit however that yes, there was a couple of cars that were making his ears ache.

Not trying to be a goody-two-shoes, but I believe it is everyones duty to report a car or cars that is/are obviously causing painful noise to persons wearing ear protection.

Unfortunately, unlike some of Brunty's flaggies, I can't just go and remove hearing aids...lol :-)

Rant over!

[Carlo]

As just about the only person on here who is a member of a car club that actually owns as well as operates a race circuit in NZ and one who was actually part of the team that built the place some 47 years ago I very much understand the concerns of the circuit owners for after much prudent fund raising we were able to purchase the block of land alongside of the back straight at Levels with a view future development only to a few years later being forced into the position of having to sell it off so as to gain sufficient funding so meet the legal costs in fighting the battle with the District Council, the RMA and the problems that started after the amalgamation of various councils that put us into the position of having to go through the whole consent process again. We were not assisted while this very long expensive process was undertaken by some users of the facility ignoring requirements. For many years of this on going legal process I was the Clerk of Course, hell we even had to totally relocate our public address system so as to reduce noise emissions off the property.

The Council do not need a complaint, they are bound by the act and the courts to measure our noise emissions whenever we conduct a race meeting and to issue an abatement notice should we be over the limits. We still get the account for this service after every race meeting held

For what it is worth, it was usually during testing or free practise that we had issues at National meetings and this was usually with V8 engined cars that were Auckland based for the other northern circuits such as Bay Park and Manfeild were policing the on track limits for they too had resource consents to comply with. Once the adjustments were made to the cars, usually a simple case of repacking the mufflers we never had issues and I have difficulty remembering having to black flag a car off the circuit during a race for excessive noise unless it had been damaged. During the past 15-20 years it has not really been an issue as all comply. There were 44 cars on the circuit last weekend during the Endurance race, no issues

The fight to keep Timaru Motor Raceway open took up the lives of a few of our group for the best part of 10 - 12 years and while they were doing that the other few kept all operations running. The personal cost of this commitment by the likes of Bill Brown and those assisting him cannot be measured but it was immense.

Now if those of you from Auckland actually owned Pukekohe, and it is a damn shame that no car club up there can make the commitment to own a circuit, I am sure that you too would be doing everything to protect it so as to ensure future generation could derive the pleasure from it that those of previous and current generations do.

We all need to forget about ourselves and think about our sport and as a final observation I sometimes get the feeling that Pukekohe is more important to those south of the Bombays and I include the South Island in that, than it is for those who live north of the place. For sure we enjoyed our many visits with the cars and the challenges presented by the white coats.

I am sure that if you, the members of Auckland motorsport actually owned the facility then these current issues you are facing up their be it noise, barriers or catch fencing would no longer exist.

We all need to realise where we sit in this world for there are users and then there are providers and without the later the former would have nowhere to exist.

You really should get a consortium together an purchase Pukekohe and then be both

[Kwaussie]

I can recall an incident at Teretonga Park when Aucklanders pressured the club officials on the day to black flag Craig Baird for an over the noise limit vehicle at an International event. The same vehicle was not noise tested at Pukekohe or Wigram prior but the poor old southerners had to bow to Mallard & Co from the north. Baird blamed the over/ noise on the fact that TV3 were filming the event as he had never been called out prior!

[928]

Hi 928. I presume you are saying that noise levels shouldn't be a MSNZ regulation, but should be a council concern, with noise measuring at the boundary? Tony Roberts
yes, racerT, MSNZ should not have anything to do with noise regulation. it is already covered by helf and safty ( spelling is deliberate)

[ERC]

Good post Carlo and thanks for the background.

When a few years ago, Pukekohe was in strife, (unpaid bill regarding resurfacing I think) I was certainly one of those who attended a meeting to try and resolve it. The only others I can remember were Racing Ray Williams and Warwick Chandler from Lotus and the late Bob White from NSCC.

The fact that Franklin Racing Club owns the site and whether we like it or not, means that horses take preference and always will, purchasing Pukekohe is never going to be a possibility. The costs of doing so, even it it was available, would be prohibitive and there is no car club in the country or even the southern hemisphere who would be able to afford it.

I'm not sure when you last went Carlo, but there are now commercial buildings built adjacent to the track at the esses and you don't need to be Einstein to know where some of the noise complaints might be coming from.

We bought into Hampton Downs on the strict understanding that there were no grounds for complaint regarding either noise, the tip or the prison. As Tony points out, all locals had been consulted and there were no objections from locals when the track was being proposed. The only objections (just in case you have forgotten) were from Corrections and what was Transit NZ - both effectively government departments under the previous labour Government. They lost their case at a huge cost to the developers (and the taxpayers).

I totally understand where you are coming from, trying to preserve your track for the future, but much of the noise issue is driven by emotion rather more than elf and sanity. Play opera at 95db and some will open their windows to hear it better. Play traditional jazz at 95db and different windows will open, whilst the opera lovers complain to noise control.

The fact is that to some people, hearing the BRM V16 on full song whilst shopping in Towcester in 1951 would have them rushing to Silverstone several miles away, hoping to see the car running (it didn't usually last long!), other shoppers wouldn't even be aware of it. So it is around Pukekohe. Apart from that brand new shopping area, from outside the track, you'd hardly be aware of the cars running.

We live several miles away from Western Springs Speedway, but even with their 85db limit, we can still hear them when the wind is blowing our way - but only because they are always bunched and you cannot say any individual car is loud, it is the cumulative effect. Is it intrusive just because we can hear it? No. Ditto speedboats racing on Aucklands upper harbour. Much noisier than the speedway anyway, but we can still hear them - for a few days each year.

The local school's PA system is far more intrusive.

Back in the UK, we could hear the soccer crowds several miles away when Forest were playing at home. Notts County rarely had a big enough crowd(!) yet the grounds are only a few hundred metres apart. The significant thing is that one man on his own yelling, even if if it was a loudmouthed Chelsea supporter, couldn't be heard several miles away.

So I don't see cars as any different. A close grid of 45 BMW E30's can be louder than one 2 litre Ford Escort that fails the flawed Pukekohe test.

[Spgeti]

I agree with you Ray on this one. To me the track was built in 1963, and where were the commercial buildings and housing then...? Sadly by the lack of planning skills the council has allowed development right up to the edge of the race track over the years and its been a few since I was last there.....like 20 years ago. I was taken back recently and shocked that the buildings are right on the boundary. No wonder there are complaints.
They call it progress but by the sounds of what your are all saying our beloved Puke is no more....ruined by people who just are not interested in motorsport.
I live not more than 1 km from Manfeild Park and yes we hear the cars and bikes but it doesn't bother us as our economy is dependent on that facility and long may it last.

[Shano]

I know this is not about motor racing but it is the same issue - people buying property near something that is inherently noisy and then complaining about it.

Some years ago in another life I worked for the New Zealand Dairy Group and for my sins part of my job was dealing with the media.

At Waitoa there was a huge dairy factory. The houses that immediately surrounded the factory had been built years ago by the company so there was somewhere for workers to live. As the population throughout the region grew, things changed and the company sold off most of the houses.

They were cheap then, and they still are, because there is a sodding great factory next door and it operates 24/7. Trucks come and go, so do other vehicles. They are noisy too.

But inevitably there have been complaints about noise and light at night. Not initially because people back then knew the score and that living next door to a big dairy factory would be noisy.

One complaint that fell on my desk involved Fair Go - the reporter contacted me and put the complainant's side of the story. I pointed out that the Waitoa dairy factory was one of the oldest in the world and had been a major production facility for decades and decades. Responsible for the town being there in the first place.

"Why would anyone want to buy a house next door to it and then complain about the noise?" I asked, pointing out that anyone who put a little bit of thought into it would realise that noise levels would be high and the factory was not going to vanish any time soon, if ever.

The Fair Go reporter saw sense and that was the last we heard of them - although I suspect the problem will be on-going. Someone looking to buy a cheap home will snap up a bargain in Waitoa and the first night they try to get some sleep the reality will hit hard.

[Carlo]

This 95dba thing is not just a New Zealand requirement, it is common throughout the world and came from the FIA, Aussie as an example enforce it with a passion, remember the issues with the B&H BMW's of Longhurst & Morris being black flagged off the circuit on live TV, Uncle Frank certainly did not like that. The world exception of course granted by the FIA is Formula One

We just have to live with it same as we live with capacity classes, weight limits, valve lift measurements etc. It is just part of the sport. For sure if we had not have had the FIA MSNZ limits to use as a tool in our favour then I am quite confident that both Timaru and Manfeild would have lost out when we had to go through that resource consent process all those years ago and that it is the work of those two clubs that is now recognised as the standard by the District Councils.

In all of the arguments that I have heard or read about in recent times there are no new ones and none that I have either not heard or used myself.

I guess that the thing that turned my thinking around was one day when I was looking after a test day and a car started close by, I had our two boys with us and they both quickly put their hands over their ears and started crying. Those same two boys were quite happy in our workshop when I had my RX3 or BDA running. Such was the noise of those particular V8's at the time.

Does anyone remember Don Grindley's OSCA RX3. At Wigram where there was wide open spaces, we all used to drop down behind the concrete pit wall and block our ears when he came by as none of the so called half deaf battle hardened pit crews could remain above the wall height such was the effect of the noise on your brain and your body.

As for familiarity with Puke, yeah I was having a bit of a nose around there a few weeks ago, I have family & quite a few motorsport mates up that way

And for buying Puke, well if you look at the facts that Auckland has 40 time the population of Timaru than you should be able to replicate the Sth Canterbury Car Club but with a club membership of 6000 people rather than our 150 and then when you ran your bigger meetings you would be getting somewhere between 200,000 and 260,000 individual paying spectators in attendance.

However I do appreciate that one ever said that it was going to be that easy.

[ERC]

And for buying Puke, well if you look at the facts that Auckland has 40 time the population of Timaru than you should be able to replicate the Sth Canterbury Car Club but with a club membership of 6000 people rather than our 150 and then when you ran your bigger meetings you would be getting somewhere between 200,000 and 260,000 individual paying spectators in attendance.

Not sure where you get 260,000 from! That is 1 in 4 of the whole of greater Auckland. Apart from the Aussie V8s, I don't think anyone has even cracked the 20,000 barrier in recent times. You'd have to be at the Le Mans 24 Hours or the Indy 500 to get anywhere near that. Goodwood festival has a 50,000 a day maximum and I think that Silverstone gets around 100,000 for the British GP.

Remember that Pukekohe as it is now and has been since I first clapped eyes on it, has had a covered grandstand and buying in now is not even the same as the buy in of Hampton Downs on virgin North Waikato farmland.

I can't see Franklin Racing Club letting it go at any price as it is the motorsport track hire that currently probably pays the majority of the bills. If track hire falls off, who knows, but until it does fall off, there is probaby no urgency to change, as they get their track hire fee regardless of whether or not the promoting club makes money.

There are all sorts of cars that can hurt your unprotected ears and it is not confined to V8s either. In the past I have come across Minis and even Vauxhalls that I consider painfully loud. There are also some cars where the resonance is a pain rather than the outright noise.

Currently, it appears that a couple of 2 litre Ford Escorts have been pinged and neither have been noted as excessively loud in the past.

PS: Just had a decibel test at the exhaust on my silenced road going V8 at 3000rpm. 95db...

[Rod Grimwood]

Sorry Carlo, can't buy into your thought's on Puke. Even you would have had your tongue in your check writing that. (like the figures, wish you made my wages up)
Timaru is still Timaru, limited in what is available to do. Sorry but Puke is not as it was when it all started.
As stated above, take the car money away and the horse outfit will go tits up. Maybe this could be an omen in the end.
They have lived off motorsport for years.

[Carlo]

Not sure where you get 260,000 from! That is 1 in 4 of the whole of greater Auckland.

PS: Just had a decibel test at the exhaust on my silenced road going V8 at 3000rpm. 95db...

Just take the Timaru attendance figures and multiple them by the 40 time more population that Auckland has than Timaru. Yes we probably do get 1 in 4 of the local population when you look at it that way mind you we do have a few outlying towns to call on such as Temula, Geraldine, Waimate, Ashburton & Oamaru etc much in the same way that you can draw on Hamilton up your way

Review the test requirements and test correctly for that figure is far to high for the engine on full load acceleration for a road car. Our race ones used to come in around 92.5 to 93dba with headers, large bore, Coby mufflers twin pipes and a tail pipe expansion chamber before we went to a better type of muffler and dropped it to around 88dba and an increase in performance.

Vauxhall noise was probably piston slap, gudgeon knock and tappets just before the bearings failed

At 95dba you would fail both an Entry Level and a WOF inspection.

[John McKechnie]

Sorry Carlo, can't buy into your thought's on Puke. Even you would have had your tongue in your check writing that. (like the figures, wish you made my wages up)
Timaru is still Timaru, limited in what is available to do. Sorry but Puke is not as it was when it all started.
As stated above, take the car money away and the horse outfit will go tits up. Maybe this could be an omen in the end.
They have lived off motorsport for years.
The Avondale Racecourse fell over when they put the lights in and did not generate enough extra income to cover it. They had to sell off a huge parcel of land. The Sunday market is their money earner.
Next to me , the Ellerslie Racecourse also got neck deep in the brown stuff. Over the past 20 years they have only survived by a consistant selling of land . Soon they will have about half of what they had in 1975.
So, Rod, you are correct, it is shown that horse racing itself only barely covers. Pukekohe horse outfit could easily go, although i am sure the horsey set have plenty if needed.

[Spgeti]

Horse racing has been for quite sometime in the brown...excuse the pun but Len might have to swallow some of it or maybe the land could be used for high density housing.....

[ERC]

Sorry Carlo, your logic is somewhat flawed. Sure, Auckland has 40 times your population base, but it also has 50 times as many events and - even more options for the leisure dollar running at the same time as the Timaru area - and these do not have to be large events to suck away the potential either.
Pukekohe took over from Ardmore where they used to have massive crowds. Pre war Donington and Brooklands also had massive crowds, but in those days, the average family was starved of entertainment. Look at the programme for the late 1930's Donington meetings and it was pathetic - other than the silver Arrows, but there were coachloads and coachloads of spectators. Heck, we had no family car and used to catch an excursion coach to a bank holiday Mallory Park meeting and the crowds were huge in the late 1950s early 1960s.

Over the years, the crowds have dropped and dropped from tier one down, as families became more mobile and now mum has her own car, she no longer gets dragged to a race meeting. Unless something pretty drastic happens, attendances will continue to drop and one of the reasons is the tiny grids of Tier 1 cars, televised, as the supposed pinnacle of NZ racing. As I have posted on here many times before, race meetings now have to be self supporting from race entries.

If you'd care to provide attendance figures (if they are known - and I don't see turnstiles at NZ meetings doing a count) for say the top 10 meetings of the year at Timaru, maybe we can see how that stacks up, because I know for a fact that the majority of meetings at Pukekohe would have less than 1,000 paying spectators and at many, it isn't even worth putting anyone on the gate.

[928]

think about this.... should a race track or organiser get taken to court on a noise issue they can stand up and say the they complied with MSNZ regulation (insert number) and the FIA regulation (insert another number) but this will not help as that the case will be heard on local laws as they stand. This is the reason that I say forget MSNZ. the regs that they have are nor worth a pinch of (insert or extract you know what) by all means do your home work and monitor noise in the direction of any potential complaints. note weather conditions (photos) and any other relivant things and keep them all together in a big file. forewarned is forearmed

[Howard Wood]

Just to get this one back on the subject, the meeting this Saturday was the first time I have had a chance to race at the revised Puke in the dry and I have to say the place has not lost its magic. The new infield, (in my humble opinion) adds another dimension and a potential passing opportunity and the existing quick corners, Turn 1 (still Champion to me) and over the Hill (ditto Rothmans) are as challenging as ever.

Yes there are marks on the walls where people have hit them but don't forget plenty of people went into the earth bank at Rothmans that used to be there too. Those corners have always required some respect.

Unfortunately, quite possibly due to potential entrants being daunted by the place and certainly because of the perceived risk of being pinged for excessive noise, the number of entries was well down meaning the meeting became a one day only and I don't mind betting the organisers still took a bath.

The noise issue may be stupid but it is there and not going away anytime soon. Making a car comply isn't too difficult, often a simple down turn on the exhaust outlet will do the trick. As for the walls, in the dry they need respect, yes but that's all, possibly a little more in the wet I agree.

If collectively we don't support meetings at Puke, nobody will risk running a classic meeting there and the opportunity to race there will be lost. To my mind that will be a great loss and the history of the place deserves more than that.

[ERC]

Several drivers seem to have overcome their trepidation and settled down.
Just one of our cars was pinged yesterday and he managed to put deflectors on the exhaust pipes.
At least two drivers have stated that they believe it is induction as much as exhaust noise!
The extended garaging area appears to be fine for those who want to pay out an extra $100 for a garage, but the area behind appears to be a bit cramped and if there had been 12 classes rather than 6, (normal for a two day meeting) then half the cars would have been located on the outside of the circuit, which can be a pain if a car is entered in two classes and one is located on the outside and one on the inside. A nightmare for dummy grid marshals.
Oh, and just one gents WC now for the whole paddock?

[nigel watts]

I wonder how the noise monitors would go out at the Meremere drag strip? Probably explode along with the operator!!

[Allan]

To go back to the concrete jungle again for just a moment. I have just watched the aussie v8s at Winton and the lack of barriers puzzles me. Can anyone explain why Winton has little or no barriers or wire catch fences and a gum tree in the middle of one of the corners and Pukekohe is like it is?

[nzeder]

I think because v8 supercars had to purchase the barriers from the Hamilton race so they had them. Installing them at the track was to create a street circuit feel and with its bumps still in place they feel that was achieved.

[Frosty5]

I think because v8 supercars had to purchase the barriers from the Hamilton race so they had them. Installing them at the track was to create a street circuit feel and with its bumps still in place they feel that was achieved.

You are quite right Allan, neither has Philip Island, Symmons Plains, Barbogello and the list goes on. Hamilton CC wanted out of the contract early so in order to make the deal sweeter they offered all the barrier gear to Cochrane and his cronies for $1.8 million instead of the $9million they paid for it. Bargain time, so they took it but left it in Frankton for almost a year with council paying the storage bill! How good is that. I bet HD could have somehow come up with the cash to buy at that price for future track expansion. And we look to our politicians to lead us. Another Tui ad I think.

[Oldfart]

To go back to the concrete jungle again for just a moment. I have just watched the aussie v8s at Winton and the lack of barriers puzzles me. Can anyone explain why Winton has little or no barriers or wire catch fences and a gum tree in the middle of one of the corners and Pukekohe is like it is?

Rather than some of the answers posted... I was told by someone on the inside of the deal that either our friend Mr Cochrane or the V8 Supercar organisation bought the barriers from Hamilton at a very low price, then passed them on to Auckland City/Pukekohe for a substantial profit and insisted on their use. This has never been officially confirmed nor denied. I would be interested to know the real truth though

[Rod Grimwood]

Oldfart, you got more chance of being told lotto numbers than truth about that lot.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Um, having experienced today's impact with the concrete walls at a closer then desired position (I was flagging right there!), can I now withdraw my objections to the "concrete jungle".
I think if there had been the old armco and posts, then we would have had a much more serious incident.
I now know that the old brown stains in your pants story is just a myth....and I can still run!!!

[Frosty5]

Rather than some of the answers posted... I was told by someone on the inside of the deal that either our friend Mr Cochrane or the V8 Supercar organisation bought the barriers from Hamilton at a very low price, then passed them on to Auckland City/Pukekohe for a substantial profit and insisted on their use. This has never been officially confirmed nor denied. I would be interested to know the real truth though

100% correct

[Frosty5]

The damage infected on DJR #17 just shows the damage caused by these barriers. It is a race track for crying out loud not a street circuit. Check out the other circuits they race on and hello not a lot of barriers there. Politics in the true sense of the word.
Dave Graham

[ERC]

Um, having experienced today's impact with the concrete walls at a closer then desired position (I was flagging right there!), can I now withdraw my objections to the "concrete jungle".
There is a distinct difference between siting them where they will do some good (as you point out) and lining both sides of what is a fairly narrow back straight and therefore preventing failing cars from parking safely, well out of the way.

If there is one criticism that probably does need addressing, it is the time taken to recover stricken vehicles and get them to a place of safety so that racing can continue.

[Frosty5]

ain't it good to see HENRY take out the round win in NZ although young Scott McLauglin put up a great performance from what I've seen on the the tv. Regardless it's good to see Kiwi's taking it to the Ozzies. Pity about the Chiefs though

[Roger Dowding]

Very pleased to see Scotty get second, first would have been magic, in the final race, the barriers - the track looks way different because of them, not like it was in 1983 when I last raced there, the Jag Drivers Le Mans teams relay race, or even a track day in 2004 with the MX5 club, the basic track still is the same, remember every corner, what about when the loop was still there, hard left after the start, and take out the stables if not careful.. memories ..

[Rod Grimwood]

Seen cars skid down the inside on grass, clip bank and then continue back over track onto grass on outside and then spin off across what used to be a big vacant grass land with out that damage/impact. There are some places for the concrete barriers, but not right next the track with no where to go. 4 NZed cars rattling into each other on what is left of grass, but behind that little bit of grass is more concrete barriers (for storage) on grass run off.

Mind you that was a very nasty accident Malcolm, and as you say, you were in the firing line, you do a grand job, do you ever just watch or always swinging a flag.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Firing line...the first bit of wall he hit on our side was a few inches along from the opening for our flags so almost beautifly aimed!
Um Grimmie, how do you spectate? Never tried it before - I'm afraid I might enjoy it!!!


Seen cars skid down the inside on grass, clip bank and then continue back over track onto grass on outside and then spin off across what used to be a big vacant grass land with out that damage/impact. There are some places for the concrete barriers, but not right next the track with no where to go. 4 NZed cars rattling into each other on what is left of grass, but behind that little bit of grass is more concrete barriers (for storage) on grass run off.

Mind you that was a very nasty accident Malcolm, and as you say, you were in the firing line, you do a grand job, do you ever just watch or always swinging a flag.

[GD66]

It is a race track for crying out loud not a street circuit. Check out the other circuits they race on and hello not a lot of barriers there.


Bang on, mate. Winton, anyone ?

[ERC]

A permanent circuit has no excuse for no run off areas. It is safer for all and it's all very well containing the car in a concrete tunnel, but how many times have we seen cars badly damaged both sides, back and front after bouncing off the concrete?

One could argue that even in the lower echelons of the sport, something more substantial than a roll over hoop and backstays bolted into a classic car are no longer advisable at some of these tracks, but a full cage, (thus totally destroying the originality, usability and enjoyment of driving on the road and also therefore the value) is almost essential.

Permanent circuits should be as safe as possible and you only have to look at Foggy's crash at Highland Park to see a classic example of extremely poor track design. Zero run off at the very a point on the track where a bit of a safety margin would be useful, not just whilst racing, but also in the event of a stalled car at the start. Hampton Downs at least doesn't have the final corner surrounded by close concrete, but again, the start finish line has no real safety margin trackside either.

[rogered]

I read a comment from Dick Johnson, after the binning of his car, bemoaning the concrete barriers and questioning whether a better alternative was available. (see he is now having to build a new chassis for the next round).
Now whist that is never going to be a good area to come unstuck, I do thing other traditional runoff areas should be opened up again.
The inside of railway exit first comes to mind.

[Terry S]

I was realy surprised at how many cars in the V8 supercars couldn't stop at back of circuit and had to go through the chicane.
Is the chicane too open.

Most seemed to regain the track without losing position. Is this fair? They have made a mistake so should be punished.
I think there used to be a rule that you had to re-enter the track as close as possible to where you left it.
Having only seen the V8 supercars, I'm wondering if this is common at this circuit?

[Bryan]

I was realy surprised at how many cars in the V8 supercars couldn't stop at back of circuit and had to go through the chicane.
Is the chicane too open.

Most seemed to regain the track without losing position. Is this fair? They have made a mistake so should be punished.
I think there used to be a rule that you had to re-enter the track as close as possible to where you left it.
Having only seen the V8 supercars, I'm wondering if this is common at this circuit?

It happened in all the classes - just have to rejoin in the same position as you left it. Same rule as for F1.

Was the damage to the DJR #17 worse than the almost identical Paul Morris shunt in 2007 (except the Armco launched Morris into a series of flips. Video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgvqTNe4aWU).

[Oldfart]

Without really knowing facts, it would seem to me watching the attached video, that while Paul rolled, and perhaps the Armco contributed, there seemed to be some softening of the impact which the Cockroach barriers don't do.

[ERC]

I wouldn't call it a chicane. It is two new corners. However, the tyre barriers on the escape road do form a chicane.

[Rod Grimwood]

The video explains it all. Same sort of accident, even to the cause of it, impact partly obsorbed by fence, and bet it was easier to repair than DJR's car.

[Grant Ellwood]

The video explains it all. Same sort of accident, even to the cause of it, impact partly obsorbed by fence, and bet it was easier to repair than DJR's car.
Having raced at Puke and clobbered a few solid objects there in my limited racing career, I am just amazed that someone would put more solid targets for anyone to attack. It just looks like a street track now, not the wonderfully flowing road course of yesteryear.
Rod, have to agree with all your criticisms.

[Bryan]

The video explains it all. Same sort of accident, even to the cause of it, impact partly obsorbed by fence, and bet it was easier to repair than DJR's car.

Might be a close run thing, as far as repair cost/complexity goes, according to this (http://www.crash.net/v8/news/106207/1/morris-unhurt-after-big-crash.html) 2007 news item.


All body panels on the car, plus front and rear suspension, and the differential were destroyed in the crash, and the chassis rail was partially bent.

Initial cost estimates for damage are a minimum $100,000. The figure could be doubled if further assessments reveal the engine and gearbox are damaged beyond repair.

:eek:

[Jeff]

These photo's really sum up the old Pukekohe... Lots of room and so casual you could lie on the infield near the track !
Meanwhile the BMW's are going hard out and a Fiat is already parked on the railway tracks
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[ERC]

and note the position of the marshal's post!!! I remember flagging there at the first truck meeting and we retreated about 30m as we deemed it too dangerous...

[Bryan]

Just as well the bloke in the FIAT doing the three point turn onto the railway line didn't meet one of these coming the other way!:eek: 25043

[Bryan]

Somewhere in my mother's china cabinet is the first motorsport photo that I ever took, of a FIAT 125T at the B&H in 1973 or 74, standing behind the No. 8 wire fence on the outfield, where the track turns left just along from the hairpin. As a youngster with a cheap camera, that was pretty exciting stuff.:D

This year at the Supercars, I wondered up to the same spot, and replicated the shot. Can you spot the differences?:p

Apologies for the crap photo quality, I might have dropped my cellphone once too often:o.

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