First Generation Pontiac Firebirds With Chevy Motors

[Steve Holmes]

OK, a question. In 1968, Craig Fisher and/or Terry Godsall convinced the Sports Car Club of America that Pontiac Firebirds were sold in Canada fitted with small block Chevy motors, thus allowing them to race Firebirds in the Trans-Am series fitted with Chevys. The SCCA appears to have believed them, as there were Firebirds racing in the Trans-Am in 1968 and '69 fitted with Chevy motors.

I've researched this quite a bit, but have never found evidence that first generation Firebirds were fitted new with Chevy motors. So, its likely I've missed something, and that Firebirds were actually fitted with Chevy motors. Or, porkies were being told to the SCCA, who either believed what they were told on face value, or never bothered to research the facts.

Can anyone shed light on this?

[Homer]

Hi Steve

Hopefully this link may clear a few things up - scroll down untill you come across the headline in orange that reads "Pontiac Special Projects Group creats the 967 PFST"

http://musclecarfilms.com/1969_Firebird_Engineering_Cars_1.html

[Steve Holmes]

Great stuff, thanks Homer. I'll take a read of that.

[Bruce302]

Steve, I've been talking to some guys that were working for Terry Godsall, during the race seasons on the cars, and before, when they e ranks at GM,worked in his dealerships or on his own car collection. Terry was a good friend of John Delorean, who was coming up through the ranks at GM.
Terry's family had several business' including selling Euclid heavy equipment, another company built truck trailers and equipment, and a Kenworth dealership. Terry was also later part owner of Lake Chevrolet, but for the purpose of getting the Firebirds accepted for the Trans Am series, they took a brand new '68 Firebird, and replaced the Pontiac engine with a 327 Chevrolet. This is very simple as the frame mounts and engine mounts are all that need changing along with the actual engine. There was enough BS by the dealership to the SCCA that it was accepted that since a reputable dealer had a brand new Firebird with a 327, it must have been legit.

The car was later put on the sales lot and sold, maybe as a used car as it is possible that it did some ice racing. Whoever bought that car may have never known it wasn't factory fresh.

Bruce.

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks Bruce. Thats really interesting! Those SCCA guys got all worked up over the Penske Camaros running vinyl covers on their roofs, but let Firebirds race with Chevy motors! I love it!

[Bruce302]

Penske was trying every trick he could think of, and it was paying off, The SCCA wanted more manufacturers in the series, as it was the manufacturers that got the points, not the drivers. If Pontiac had been a threat they would have been taken down, but it is very possible that it was Chevrolet (and the inter marque rivalry within GM) that saw that Z/28 powered Firebirds time end. There were instructions at Chevrolet that no one was to sell performance parts to the T/G team, but they had a way around that.

Bruce.

[Kiwiboss]

So the reality is, NO gen 1 Pontiac ever came with a Small Block chev engine from the factory that was sold to the public and the Canadian build 350 Chev engine Firebird was just smoking mirrors!!

Dale M

[Steve Holmes]

Penske was trying every trick he could think of, and it was paying off, The SCCA wanted more manufacturers in the series, as it was the manufacturers that got the points, not the drivers. If Pontiac had been a threat they would have been taken down, but it is very possible that it was Chevrolet (and the inter marque rivalry within GM) that saw that Z/28 powered Firebirds time end. There were instructions at Chevrolet that no one was to sell performance parts to the T/G team, but they had a way around that.

Bruce.

Bruce, do you know if T/G Racing ever attempted to run their '70 Firebirds with Chevy motors?

[Rod Grimwood]

Will do some research, but a mate had a Firebird with 400 small block in it way back then, and it was not played around with, all standard. Did Pontiac have 400 as wel as Chev. Remember a couple of the plugs were a trick to get too.

[Bruce302]

Bruce, do you know if T/G Racing ever attempted to run their '70 Firebirds with Chevy motors?

T/G Racing had 2 cars (70 model) that after Jerry's death, were run as BFGoodrich TireBirds. One was later converted to a Camaro an of course run with the Chev engine.
I will dig out a pic or two.
Bruce.

[Bruce302]

Will do some research, but a mate had a Firebird with 400 small block in it way back then, and it was not played around with, all standard. Did Pontiac have 400 as wel as Chev. Remember a coouple off the plugs were a trick to get too.
Yes Pontiac had their own 400 cubic inch engine, but there were virtually no interchange parts with the Chev, except carb and nearly starter motor.

Bruce.

[Bruce302]

So the reality is, NO gen 1 Pontiac ever came with a Small Block chev engine from the factory that was sold to the public and the Canadian build 350 Chev engine Firebird was just smoking mirrors!!

Dale M

That is correct Dale, but the Firebird was homologated to run with the Chev engine, but had to run a 68 front grill.

Bruce.

[Bruce302]

Here is a pic of the Camaro bodied and Chev powered "Tire Bird" after a little incident in warm up.
By this time the SCCA were firm on the cars having the correct corporate engine, hence the Firebird being changed to a Camaro so they could run the Chev engine.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2druzyc.jpg

Bruce.

[Steve Holmes]

Wow, amazing photo Bruce! Its obviously a Camaro here. Is this the car that now competes with the Historic Trans-Am group? http://www.historictransam.com/Drivers/BruceCanepa3.html

[Steve Holmes]

T/G Racing had 2 cars (70 model) that after Jerry's death, were run as BFGoodrich TireBirds. One was later converted to a Camaro an of course run with the Chev engine.
I will dig out a pic or two.
Bruce.

Thanks Bruce, T/G Racing appears to have entered just a single Firebird in most Trans-Am races in 1970, with David Hobbs, Jerry Thompson and John Cordts driving after Titus was killed. The motor was said to be the cars achilles heel, because of its weight, being based on a 400 block. But I was just wondering if T/G Racing had ever tried to convince the SCCA to let them use Chevy motors in 1970?

[Bruce302]

The Pontiac engine was not very reliable, the Chev of course was well developed, but the game was up. They had to run the Pontiac engine in the Firebird, and if they wanted to run the small block Chev, they had turn one of the cars into a Camaro. BF Goodrich liked the Tire Bird / Firebird tie up, so the Firebird lived on, for a while.

I'm not sure which chassis is the one under the car that Bruce Canepa has.
Here is a pic of two T/G Firebirds, Hobbs and Cordts driving.

http://i48.tinypic.com/fnrdpt.jpg

[Steve Holmes]

I guess it comes back to your earlier post Bruce, the SCCA wanted manufacturers in 1968 when they first let the Firebirds run with Chevy motors. By 1969 they were a serious threat for outright victories with Titus on board. They probably wanted to get the Pontiacs running the correct engines before that happened, otherwise they'd be opening a whole can of worms. Love the photo!

[Bruce302]

There are some that are convinced that it was the Chevrolet division who convinced the SCCA that Pontiac were not being entirely honest about Chev powered Firebirds. There was actually a 303 Pontiac powered all race ready at the Wolverine T/A race at Michigan in '69, but wasn't allowed to run as there were not sufficient production 303 powered cars to homologate. There was 6 Chev powered Firebirds in the race. So while they were ready to use the 303, the 302 Z/28 engine was vital for continued participation.

[Bruce302]

This was one of the early Titus/Godsall Chev powered Firebirds. It was built by Southern Californian Jon ward, a quick privateer and talented car builder. The car was converted from a Camaro by T/G Racing, and it was very competitive right away. This is Jon Ward in the car at Daytona where he co drove with Jerry Titus.

http://i49.tinypic.com/1gngif.jpg

[Steve Holmes]

Bruce, this photo would be from 1969 wouldn't it? That car still exists. Does anyone know what happened to the other '68 T/G Firebird?

[Steve Holmes]

There are some that are convinced that it was the Chevrolet division who convinced the SCCA that Pontiac were not being entirely honest about Chev powered Firebirds. There was actually a 303 Pontiac powered all race ready at the Wolverine T/A race at Michigan in '69, but wasn't allowed to run as there were not sufficient production 303 powered cars to homologate. There was 6 Chev powered Firebirds in the race. So while they were ready to use the 303, the 302 Z/28 engine was vital for continued participation.

Bruce, they say in motorsport the most important person to beat is your team mate. Titus was immediately quick in his first race in the Firebird in '68. I'm sure Chevrolet wouldn't have wanted Pontiac there anymore than Ford wanted Mercury there in '67.

[Bruce302]

Steve, the other '68 T/G Firebird (Craig Fishers #77 car with Gagnon Spring sponsorship) has not been found, it may have been converted to a Camaro. Gagnon advertised used race cars for sale, one mentioned the Firebird, 6 months later he was selling a 68 Camaro, that is when it may have had the switch.

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks Bruce. I've never seen a colour photo of the Titus car from '68. Was it the same yellow colour as Fishers car?

Quite a few of those Trans-Am cars ended up in the rival Nascar Grand Touring (http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?41-Nascar-Grand-Touring) series. That series included everything from super speedways such as Daytona, right through to dirt bullrings, and many of the cars got wrecked.

[Bruce302]

The converted Camaro was painted yellow for the '68 race at Kent Washington, and had "Pacific Euclid" ( a Godsall company) painted on the rear quarters, but later for Daytona it was red and white again as it has been restored.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2iht6va.jpg
Photo courtesy www.historictransam.com

You're right about the cars getting beaten up and driven into the ground at the secondary tracks, dirt was the worst, That claimed a lot of good cars.

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks Bruce. Didn't this car come up for sale a couple of years ago? It really is a fantastic looking race car.

This was typical of many of the tracks that were part of the Nascar Grand Touring series. Tough dirt bullring ovals. This (#55) is Tiny Lund who won the series several times:

9605

[Steve Holmes]

Plus a few more. You can imagine the survival rate on these cars would be pretty low.

9606

9609

9608

9607

[Steve Holmes]

9610

9611

9612

9613

[Bruce302]

Wow that # 9 took a big hit in the front, She won't be coming back. Too bad a lot of otherwise good cars died on those dirt tracks.
The Jon Ward Camaro, T/G Firebird has changed hands a few times in the last decade since it was found in Mexico.
It still appears occasionally at West Coast Historic Trans Am events.

Bruce.

[Steve Holmes]

Note how all those cars have full windscreens, unlike most dirt track cars which usually just have a mesh screen on the drivers side. I expect they'd be junk after a race on the dirt.

[Bruce302]

They raced the same cars on paved tracks too Steve, the dirt was not their permanent home, but it certainly contributed to the deterioration.

[Steve Holmes]

Yep thats right, here is Tiny Lund racing his same '69 on a road course, possibly Daytona infield. I'm just surprised they leave the glass in for the dirt races. But maybe they had to as part of the rules.

9640

[Rod Grimwood]

Further to post #12 & #13 it looks a lot better here and a little history.

1970 Pontiac Firebird Trans-Am
First production car to win a race using radial tires
Raced in Trans-Am, The Daytona 24 Hours, Sebring 12 Hours, SCCA and CSCC club events
Built by Jerry Titus’ TG Racing
Restored to a very high concours standard by Mark Mountanos
Sponsored by BF Goodrich Radial Tires and driven by Canadian champion John Cordts and Larry Dent, this car was raced in Trans-Am, The Daytona 24 Hours, Sebring 12 Hours, SCCA and CSCC club events. BF Goodrich made special tires for the team and they eventually became the first production car to win a race using radial tires.
This was the third of three cars built by Jerry Titus’ TG Racing for the 1970 Trans-Am season. Titus’ partner Terry Godsall secured BF Goodrich sponsorship for the team at the end of the 1970 season. The team convinced the SCCA to allow this car to run with a Chevy engine instead of the problematic Pontiac engine base on the fact that Canadian Firebirds were delivered with Chevy engines. This car was entered in the 1971 Daytona 24 hours as a Firebird and then was converted to Camaro body work in time for Sebring. It remained in Camaro trim for the remainder of it’s active racing carrier. The car was sold to Alfie Ruys de Perez and raced in Trans Am in 1972 with assistance from Mo Carter’s team and then to Don Clement who campaigned the car in IMSA and local CSCC events.

This car has been restored to a very high concours standard by Mark Mountanos and his team. The attention to detail down to the nut and bolt level is second to none. A huge collection of documentation, historic photographs, and interviews with Titus team members has insured a proper period correct restoration. The car has participated in just seven races since the restoration was complete including the Monterey Historics.

Today the car is in spectacular condition, fully sorted, and race ready. Owned by a prominent west coast collector and vintage racer it has always had top quality care and preparation. The car looks as if the restoration had been completed yesterday!

The car has only three race weekends since a complete race-prep. Tony Oddo built the Chevy engine which has only 12 hours of track time, and produced 485.1 hp and 377.6 torque on the Dyno. The T10 transmission has just been completely rebuilt by Tex Racing.

1970 Record
Watkins Glenn Trans Am — Cordts , 22nd. (Goodyear tires)
Canadian Trophy Race, Mosport — Cordts
Watkins Glenn SCCA National — Cordts, 1st, A Sedan (first production car to win a race using radial tires.)

1971 Record
Daytona 24 Hours — Cordts, Pike , DNF
Sebring 12 Hours — Cordts, Pike, DNF (converted to Camaro)
Bridgehampton SCCA — Dent, 2nd
Cumberland SCCA — Dent, DNF
Lime Rock SCCA — Dent, 1st
Bryar Trans Am — Dent, 16th
Thompson SCCA — Dent, 2nd
Road America June Sprints — Dent, 3rd
Mid-Ohio SCCA — Dent, 3rd
Nelson Leges SCCA — Dent, DNS

1972 Record
Bryar Trans Am — Perez, 8th
Mid Ohio Trans Am — Perez, 29th
Watkins Glenn Trans Am — Perez, 9th
Donnebrooke Trans Am — Perez, 26th
Road America Trans Am — Perez, 8th
Saniar Trans Am — Perez, 14th

About Jerry Titus
In 1967, Jerry Titus was the Trans-Am Champion racing a Ford Mustang for Carroll Shelby. In 1968 and 1969, he was third in the Trans-Am series.
He had 43 career races with 4 wins in the 1967 race season. He had 5 poles, and 7 wins in his career as a driver or co-driver.

At the final 1968 Trans-Am race at Kent, the big news was that Jerry Titus was leaving Ford and moving to Pontiac. Terry Godsall, a young Canadian businessman, offered Jerry a chance to run a team of his own Pontiac Firebirds.

In going with Pontiac, Titus found that he was handicapped by the need of a great deal of developmental work, especially on the engine. Early on, Godsall pulled out of the Trans Am series, saying that the SCCA was inconsistent in its rule enforcement policies. Jerry then carried on the administrative responsibilities as well as driving for his team.

In 1970, Jerry Titus decided to stop building Firebirds for customers and concentrate on his own race cars. Three cars were built. This BFG " Tire Bird" and the Titus car are the only cars that still exist.

The third Trans Am Firebird was severely wrecked in a crash and eventually destroyed.
The 1970 Season was Jerry's last season.

[Bruce302]

Thanks Rod, that is a good write up.
Here is an article about some tire testing that went with the territory. I believe T/G Racing got something like $1 per mile to test the tires. To see the pics you click on the box in the upper right "View Image gallery" There is also a pic of a Corvette that Ron Grable was involved with. The car was supposed to have raced at Le Mans but was wrecked during a night time pre race incident that was meant to impress a female passenger.

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2008/12/01/hmn_feature10.html

Bruce.

[mike barone]

Replying specifically to the picture in post #16 - the # 79 and #73 cars. Sorry to get laser-focused, but I am very interested in the cars as I think it's a pretty cool story. Not only is the team suffering from the crushing loss of Jerry Titus, but they are fighting the convergence of changing SCCA engine requirements and running engines with academic flaws which have not had the benefit of complete testing and tuning. Literally, the smartest guys trying to make the impossible happen.

My understanding is that the post-Titus team ran one Trans Am event in '70 at Riverside. Although from records and other pictures, they might have run a Can Am race in '70.

My second point of understanding is that they ran the destroked 400 Pontiac for this race--the 303 tall block. The team had been experimenting with the famous 303 short block Pontiac in the '69 season. They ran two races, but the SCCA nixed it because not enough had been produced. The rules changed in '70 for destroking.

I also believe the 303 tall block had troubles not from the weight, but oil pressure (large crank journals and rod journals eat pressure) and spinning mass weight (2.83 stroke, but long 7.08" rods). Compared to the proven king 302, the bore and stroke are better as are the RAIV heads. Pontiac crank dimensions and the longer rods were the killers. These cranks did well in NASCAR (Tiny Lund) with the short blocks and dry sumps.

Like stated in the thread, David Hobbs brought #79 in for a 9th place finish at riverside. I am unclear if the #73 car was driven by John Cordts or Jerry Thompson; but it DNF.

My understanding is that the Pontiacs went back to the Chevy 302 in the '71 season as the well documented Tirebird.

With all this said, I am looking for photos of these cars for a clone I am building. I have a duplicate set of side pipes from the Tirebird and a Tiny Lund crank. The #16 post picture and one from Watkins Glen (month earlier/John Cordt)(crazy exhaust--big, long curved pipe and not side pipes) are all I have been able to find.

Any help is much appreciated.

Mike