The State of NZ Motorsport.

[markec]

It would appear that the Safety thread is loosing its way and is becoming a grizzle thread regarding the poor state of Motorsport in NZ.
I like others who have made comment about attending motorsport events have become disillusioned with what is being offered as modern promoted events, the entertainment value is almost nil, with small fields becoming very processional.
I am limiting my attendance to historical events where I spend most of my time looking at the cars and conversing with those I know and making some new acquaintances where possible. I don't view many of the races, only those that hold an inter4est to me.
The word on the ground is that Motor Sport New Zealand is making moves to try and take over the running of the Southern Festival of Speed which includes Ruapuna'e Scope Meeting along with the Levels Timaru and Teratonga events.They have stuffed every thing else up so I would hope the organizers of these events send them packing back to Wellington and tell them to keep their negative thinking,meddling hands off 3 events that are run extremely well, get much bigger attendances and are %100 more acceptable to the general public than anything MANZ can come up with.

[kiwi285]

I fully agree with your comments. I only attend historic meetings these days and wouldn't waste my time with the current offerings by NZ Motorsport. Even the V8 Supercars are lacklustre and the costs forced on all spectators is a sure way of killing casual spectators from ever returning. I don't know how a family could afford to attend such a meeting. Give me the historic meetings any day. Frienfly people, great cars and some special racing. They seem to be totally out of touch with what the paying public want to see.

If Motorpsort NZ ever get their hands on the Southern Festival of Speed series of meetings we will see that ruined as well. God help NZ motorsport.

[Carlo]

I certainly have not heard such rumours, in fact I hear the very opposite and that includes the role and position of TMC in the future. The role of Motorsport NZ does not include running meetings and/or series and sometimes people get the role & title of TMC (The Motorsport Company) and MSNZ mixed.

However, I for one would love to see one ot two true historic classes run as part of the Summer Series alongside of Formula Toyota, FF, and NZV8

[Oldfart]

Hey Carlo, Tier 1 now has fields of how many?
Suzuki last time I saw was 12, FF not much different, Toyota if not for the overseas guys would not exist, why would the historics bolster these failures?
Over 70 paid entries for next weekend Roycroft Trophy! something is out of kilter!

[Dave Silcock]

I fully agree with your comments. I only attend historic meetings these days and wouldn't waste my time with the current offerings by NZ Motorsport. Even the V8 Supercars are lacklustre and the costs forced on all spectators is a sure way of killing casual spectators from ever returning. I don't know how a family could afford to attend such a meeting. Give me the historic meetings any day. Frienfly people, great cars and some special racing. They seem to be totally out of touch with what the paying public want to see.

If Motorpsort NZ ever get their hands on the Southern Festival of Speed series of meetings we will see that ruined as well. God help NZ motorsport.

I totally agree, MSNZ has almost no credibility with anybody I know and my dealings with them over the years has been almost entirely negative. Take the case of someone new to the sport with a purchased race car, he was turned down by the scrutineer because the side intrusion bar did not have certification. How ever as it was a bolt in, he was able to race without it. Obviously much safer now. Or the owner of a factory built Porsche that had done a season in Europe and one in SE Asia being told he needs two more tubes to comply here. The importer of a Nascar truck being told his rool cage would not pass!! Take my own car for instance, the roll cage was profressionly built in 2008 and inspected by the MSNZ technical officer. Because I was well away from completion I decided to do all the paper work at once at the end. Hello my beautiful rollcage, Chrome moly TIG welded, no longer complies. If I had done it in 08 it would have and I could use it today, what makes it un safe now? If they do not pass it the car will not race, as I am not going to rip it to bits to change it now. They have had my application for that and a log book for four months now and I have yet to hear from them.

[Trevor Sheffield]

I have been involved with motor sport for a very long time, early on at club committee level and as a club secretary. I have witnessed the absolute bureaucracy initiated and developed under various veils, which has benefitted only those thereby personally gaining authority, i.e. empire builders.

[AMCO72]

Dave, don't be unreasonable, they have been at the beach. Can't hurry these things.So, bang goes my drive if things aren't sorted?

[Oldfart]

I bought a car which was imported with FIA approved cage, and the paperwork less than 3 months old. It was allowed to run with the overseas owner, but not approved for NZ (ownership and use) by motorsport. The stories abound.

[richard lester]

I certainly have not heard such rumours, in fact I hear the very opposite and that includes the role and position of TMC in the future. The role of Motorsport NZ does not include running meetings and/or series and sometimes people get the role & title of TMC (The Motorsport Company) and MSNZ mixed.

However, I for one would love to see one ot two true historic classes run as part of the Summer Series alongside of Formula Toyota, FF, and NZV8
totally agree with you carlo.
i am hearing rumours of some well needed change to event management for the summer series--i really hope these become more than rumours and i also really hope some 'race management' changes happen as well.
nothing quite like standing at the end of the plank with your eyes shut still thinking all the problems will go away before you step off.
NZ motorsport is fundamentally very strong,just needs to be looked after properly...........

[bob homewood]

Steve,I wonder if you should move the non safety issues to this thread ,so the conversation does not become fragmented ,also it should stop the other thread getting off topic

[Dave Silcock]

Dave, don't be unreasonable, they have been at the beach. Can't hurry these things.So, bang goes my drive if things aren't sorted?
I talked to a guy last week who had waited 3 years for a COD for an E 30. They had to ring him and ask for a new cheque as the one he sent had expired. On enquiring on what took so long the reply was ''we just found it under a pile of papers'' so I am not holding my breath.

[RogerH]

The following remit has been submitted to the MSNZ Annual Conference in May. It address the involvement of MSNZ in commercial motor sport activities :


REMIT TO 65TH ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING 2012


We, the Thoroughbred and Classic Car Owners Club Inc (TACCOC), wish to place the following remit before delegates at the appropriate meeting forming part of the 65th Annual General Council Meeting 2012.


1. Rule No./Schedule or appendix affected: MSNZ Inc Constitution Powers - Clauses 4.11 and 4.15

2. Remit: That MSNZ Inc amend its Constitution to specifically provide that as a regulatory and administrative body it should not directly or indirectly engage in commercial activities.

3. Reason:

MSNZ Inc is an Incorporated Society with a non-profit status. It is the FIA appointed governing body for New Zealand motor sport and undertakes regulatory and administrative functions on behalf of Member Clubs.

• MSNZ Inc has taken majority shareholdings in The Motorsport Company Limited (TMC) and Rally of New Zealand Limited (RNZ). These companies respectively promote, on a commercial basis, the Tier One circuit racing and the International Rally New Zealand based event. As MSNZ Inc is a non-profit organisation it is unable to obtain any financial benefits from these companies either directly or indirectly. It cannot receive, dividends, profit shares, inflated fees or levies without prejudicing MSNZ's tax exempt status. If MSNZ's tax free status was successfully challenged by the IRD it would have a significantly detrimental affect on Member Clubs.

• Essentially, MSNZ's involvement in TMC and RNZ has no financial benefits for member clubs but exposes them to significant risk should either TMC or RNZ have financial difficulties. Both TMC and RNZ are operating in an environment where financial adversity is a realistic prospect.

• Additionally, it is considered that it is wrong in principle that a regulatory and administrative body should have commercial interests in the activities that it is regulating and administering. Such a commercial involvement creates the potential for conflicts of interest.

• One of the fundamental objectives of MSNZ's Constitution (at Clause 3.10) requires MSNZ to "at all times to act on behalf of, and in the interests of, the member clubs ....". It is debatable that MSNZ's majority commercial interests in TMC and RNZ are for the benefit of all Member Clubs. The involvement of these companies is restricted to the activities of only a portion of MSNZ Member Club competitors but the "contribution" from MSNZ to, for example, TMC has been significant. Cash donations by MSNZ to TMC exceed $1 million of Member Clubs’ funds and recently MSNZ announced that it had purchased the intellectual property and jigs for the new generation NZV8 car. It is questionable whether an administrative and regulatory body should be involved in such activities and whether they are in the interests of all Member Clubs.

• The financial and other indirect support MSNZ provides, especially to TMC, serves only a very small minority of MSNZ affiliated competitors. MSNZ is required under its Constitution to act in the benefit of Member Clubs and it is considered that it can best achieve this obligation by utilising funds in a manner that provides benefit to a wider range of MSNZ affiliated competitors.

• MSNZ cannot argue that such "donations" to the likes of TMC are "repaid" by levies and fees as any levy or fee that exceeds that which would normally be paid by an unrelated third party, could be deemed to be profit share by stealth and accordingly prejudice MSNZ's tax fee status.

• MSNZ should exit those companies in which it has a commercial interest in an orderly manner to enable the best return from its investments.

[markec]

Unfortunately Richard, I think Motor Sport New Zealand is fundamentally flawed, why should the situation of commercialism got as far as it has.It would seem the auditors have not done their job properly either.

[timbo61]

As an enthusiastic spectator in Australia, every promotional and sponsorship dollar has gone in to V8 Supercars.
However despite many Government dollars gone in to support the rounds of the series, as a spectator, you are still asked to pay top dollar to attend the events, and that is just the start of the cash drain.
Sit in a temporary grandstand, extra please, walk through the pits, even more please, but if you actually watch the racing, it is no better than a local club race meeting.
I have long gone given up attending V8 Supercar meetings, and instead have bought an "enthusiast" membership to the Australian Racing Drivers Club, which basically enables me free entry to all events run at the Eastern Creek Raceway in Sydney.
This way I know my money goes towards the club that runs day to day motor racing in Sydney, and is not a once a year cash grab and see you later, which is what V8 Supercars basically is.

[Russ Cunningham]

Formula Toyota is our international single seater series which attracts up and coming drivers from many different countries. A fairly well regulated class which gets little or no support from MSNZ who have got it into their heads that V8's are all that matters.

Last time I attended a Formula Toyota race meeting the driving and the entry list was terrific but the crowd attendence was pathetic and the only support races were various BMW classes.

Remember Formula Ford in the 70's. I can recall 45 entries at Bay Park. How many do you get now? 8 on a good day.

Time you retired Kerry Cooper and a enthusiast, preferably ex. racing driver took the reins.

[Dave Silcock]

Steve,I wonder if you should move the non safety issues to this thread ,so the conversation does not become fragmented ,also it should stop the other thread getting off topic

Hi Bob, I think what we are trying to show through the roll bar thing is not safety but the goddamned stupidity of the organisation.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Attention RogerH,

The details you have provided in post #12 surely raises serious alarm. It is not uncommon for attendance at formal meetings to be limited and loaded by the standing executive. What is the situation in respect of proxy votes?

This forum provides TACOC representatives with the opportunity to attend the meeting well armed. With the GM so close, this possibility should not be overlooked.

[richard lester]

Unfortunately Richard, I think Motor Sport New Zealand is fundamentally flawed, why should the situation of commercialism got as far as it has.It would seem the auditors have not done their job properly either.
Markec,i said motorsport 'IN' new zealand is fundamentally strong-i made reference to the lack of proper management of the sport.

[conrod]

The following remit has been submitted to the MSNZ Annual Conference in May. It address the involvement of MSNZ in commercial motor sport activities :


REMIT TO 65TH ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING 2012




Nice work TACCOC, and good to see someone is finally trying to address these issues. Please keep us posted on any updates Roger H.:)

Conrad Timms

[GeebeeNZ]

Roger, At one time the two companies had different balance dates to Motorsport NZ and used that as an excuse not to have to present current company accounts to the Motorsport AGM. This is frowned upon by the NZ Institute of Chartered Accountants and should have been highlighted by the Auditors. Is that still happenening.

[Chris Read]

I have been a continuous MANZ/MSNZ Int race/rally licence holder for nearly 50 yrs. I raced in MANZ events and historics often at the same meeting. In 1989 I heard of a threat to Historic organisers who would not line up with MANZ (one being Country Gents) and wrote a much publicised letter to MANZ (Refer:Skidding the Tyres in Classic style-Eileen McMillan). They replied (also published) to their credit, but it did not dispel the notion I held that GP motorsport as we new it was loosing its appeal to the regulars and we had to accommodate new ideas. About that time Motorsport News (Aug 1990) recorded that circuit owning clubs would ban from their venue any non MANZ member club or group! That left historic racing in a bit of a bind.
MANZ at the time was pointing out that motorsport as we knew it was not working, but clubs were springing up that were. Although clearly each club made their own decision the influence of MANZ was there and the remedy was wrong.
My reasoning was that a GP at Ruapuna in those days pulled say 5000 spectators and a Country Gents at Wigram - (able to be run by a non sanctioned club because it was not at a MANZ sanctioned venue) pulled say 30,000 spectators over two days.
Fast forward to today...have we learnt anything....it is all becoming too difficult and no wonder we have the commentary above. Chris Read- Arrowtown. Have to say Arrowtown and not Queenstown anymore, as that's where we live and my wife comes from Arrowtown and...... you get the picture.

[RogerH]

Attention RogerH,

The details you have provided in post #12 surely raises serious alarm. It is not uncommon for attendance at formal meetings to be limited and loaded by the standing executive. What is the situation in respect of proxy votes?

This forum provides TACOC representatives with the opportunity to attend the meeting well armed. With the GM so close, this possibility should not be overlooked.

MSNZ does not allow proxy votes. As a result TACCOC have submitted the following remit :

REMIT TO 65TH ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING 2012



We, the Thoroughbred and Classic Car Owners Club Inc (TACCOC), wish to place the following remit before delegates at the appropriate meeting forming part of the 65th Annual General Council Meeting 2012.


1. Rule No./Schedule or appendix affected: MSNZ Inc Constitution Section 8.5

2. Remit: That MSNZ Inc amend its Constitution to provide for Members complying with Section 5 of the Constitution to exercise their democratic right of representation through a proxy vote.

3. Reason :

• MSNZ's Constitution provides a fundamental objective that MSNZ conducts it's activities for the collective and mutual benefit of all Member Clubs and acts in the interests of all Member Clubs.

• It appears inconsistent with the constitutional objective (Section 3.10) that MSNZ "... at all times ... act on behalf of, and in the interests of, the member clubs ...", that Section 8.5 of the Constitution specifically limits the exercising of votes to only those Member Clubs that attend the annual Council meeting.

• There are a number of valid reasons why Member Clubs may not be able to attend Council (including the geographical location of a Member Club in relation to the location of the Council meeting) and it seems both draconian and undemocratic that these Member Clubs are accordingly disenfranchised by excluding them from exercising their right of participation in the voting process.

• Remits are circulated to all Member Clubs prior to the Council meeting so Member Clubs who are unable to attend Council have the opportunity to discuss the remit and come to a view which could be exercised through a proxy voting process.

• To be consistent with it's objectives, MSNZ should take every opportunity to encourage participation by Member Clubs irrespective of them attending Council or not and the introduction of proxy voting would assist in facilitating this objective.

[RogerH]

Roger, At one time the two companies had different balance dates to Motorsport NZ and used that as an excuse not to have to present current company accounts to the Motorsport AGM. This is frowned upon by the NZ Institute of Chartered Accountants and should have been highlighted by the Auditors. Is that still happenening.

Yes, you are right Graeme - MSNZ has a balance date of 31 December while TMC has a balance date of 31 March. Of more concern is the refusal of MSNZ to consolidate the activities of TMC as MSNZ is a 60% shareholder in TMC. This is despite the MSNZ auditor tagging the MSNZ accounts and stating :

" Motorsport New Zealand has not consolidated its interest in Rally New Zealand and The Motorsport Company Limited. This is a departure from the Financial Reporting Standard No. 37 "Consolidating Investments in Subsidiaries", as these entities are controlled entities under the scope of the standard and therefore should be consolidated. The financial effect of this departure has not been quantified "

[Trevor Sheffield]

Thanks Roger,

Nothing has been learned. I have been observing this same commentary for 60 yrs. Dare I say comedy? Now, is THE time to rally the/your troupes.

“Section 8.5 of the Constitution specifically limits the exercising of votes to only those Member Clubs that attend the annual Council meeting”
.
Exactly the problem which existed 60 years ago with the original Association of New Zealand Car Clubs. Nothing has changed. I recall as secretary of the Northern Sports Car Club, the cost and difficulties involved in arranging effective delegates to attend the annual GM of the ANZCC, which overall held the purse strings. I called the outfit, “The Treasury.” Obvious who were the tax payers.

The organisation has never and will never under the current set up, -----

”be consistent with it's objectives, MSNZ should take every opportunity to encourage participation by Member Clubs irrespective of them attending Council or not and the introduction of proxy voting would assist in facilitating this objective.”

Unfortunately I do not have access to the current MSNZ Inc. constitution and others with a valid interest could very well be in the same boat. If this can be scanned and posted here, it would present a concrete basis for truly effective discussion.

Involvement in commercial activity surely falls outside of the functions of the organisation as was originally intended. Is the constitution so vague that anything goes? Are loop holes being worked? Exactly what is gong on from a legal point of view? Is the organisation in any way corrupt? Are there stray dividends floating about? Who is serving who and what is being served? There is no question as to who is paying!

Trevor.

[markec]

I have sent you a personal message Chris Read, check the notification button link along the top of the page.

[RogerH]

Unfortunately I do not have access to the current MSNZ Inc. constitution and others with a valid interest could very well be in the same boat. If this can be scanned and posted here, it would present a concrete basis for truly effective discussion.
Trevor.

Don't get me started on the MSNZ Constitution !! It can be accessed here : http://www.motorsport.org.nz/content/constitution

The powers granted to the MSNZ Executive are in reality somewhat irrelevant as any challenge is usually batted off with the justification of the "famous" clause 19 :

19. Matters Not Provided For:
19.1 Any matters which are not provided for in this Constitution shall be decided by the Executive.

This effectively gives the Executive the power to do what it wants.

The other fault with the MSNZ "system" is that for whatever reason the representation process for Executive has resulted in no person north of Hamilton being on MSNZ Executive for at least 10 years. Additionally, there has been no Executive member from the historic and classic fraternity (probably one of the largest competitor groups) for probably 12 years. This lack of representation from two large interest groups may explain the basis of so much dissatisfaction with MSNZ.

[AMCO72]

Hey you fellas, don't you think you are on the wrong thread for this. I think most of what I am reading here belongs in yards & YARNS. I can scarcely believe what I'm seeing here. Where has Mr Cranch/Crunch gone. He was going to answer all our questions, was he not? Is the VCC 'ruled' by MSNZ now. I seem to remember years ago that the VCC was a big enough organisation to operate without the 'help' of MSNZ. We have obviously struck a raw nerve here.

[RogerH]

Hey you fellas, don't you think you are on the wrong thread for this. I think most of what I am reading here belongs in yards & YARNS. I can scarcely believe what I'm seeing here. Where has Mr Cranch/Crunch gone. He was going to answer all our questions, was he not? Is the VCC 'ruled' by MSNZ now. I seem to remember years ago that the VCC was a big enough organisation to operate without the 'help' of MSNZ. We have obviously struck a raw nerve here.

I think the structural issues with MSNZ are at the root of the competition issues so they are probably linked.

VCC is a separate entity from MSNZ although there is meant to be a mutual use of documentation (competition licences etc) for motor sport events with VCC catering for up to 1960 cars. For example, I understand next weekends Roycroft meeting at Hampton Downs is being run as a VCC event (which probably annoys MSNZ).

[Carlo]

The prime reason why there has been no Executive member/s north of the Bombays for some time and why there has been no "Historic" executive member is simply becasue no one from those groups or areas have put their name forward as a nomination. Yes they are successful at the Advisory Commission level but no one appears to want to step up and/or come from outside of the commissions

Has anyone from TACCOC, or any other Historic or Marque clubs from north of the Bombays been nominated this year? There is elections for both an Executive member and a vice President

There is a party of thought that some of the executive should be elected and some appointed so as to overcome such percieved lack of geograpical or area of interest representation.

I am one of the many who attend conference to represent my club at my own expense, a number of us do it becasue we believe that it is important that the views of our club are represented there.

There have been some times in the past when I have attended with very strict instructions on which way to vote on a subject but as one does a little research amongst delegates one learns of other thoughts and reasons of an opposing view one has learnt that our clubs stance may not be in the best interests of the sport and a quick phone call back home has allowed me to vote in the other direction. Proxy voting does not allow for that.
I am also concious of the fact that there will be some groups or individuals who will actively seek out the proxy votes of non attending clubs to use for their own ends.

MSNZ role is one of Governance of the sport not Management of the sport and this is something that has not been identified by many people seeking office in the past and is the cause of some issues today. I think that it has been a people problem rather than a constitutional problem. In the past we have been blessed with some great guardians of our sport and we have had some very good well meaning people who have been a little out of their depth at Executive level.

Lets hope that this year things will be a little different and that we get some really passionate well equiped people standing for office

[jim short]

Yes Amco ..not sure I wish to partake with these so unhappy chappies seems to me the ten tenths site was roger h causing all the moans.. then he belongs to taccoc Now hes started here I had a good day at Taupo met the poms who build the Juno ..50 so far just happen to mention this site Oh no you are a BLOGGER going by there support bloggers are considerd a joke!!!!.

[RogerH]

The prime reason why there has been no Executive member/s north of the Bombays for some time and why there has been no "Historic" executive member is simply becasue no one from those groups or areas have put their name forward as a nomination. Yes they are successful at the Advisory Commission level but no one appears to want to step up and/or come from outside of the commissions



Not quite correct Carlo - for example, Tony Roberts unsuccessfully put his name forward for Executive last year and he's from Auckland and an historic/classic competitor.

[AMCO72]

OK Jim, you stick to subjects you know something about. Go back to Daves Jags and tell us about the D type. Please!!

[Dave Silcock]

I have been a continuous MANZ/MSNZ Int race/rally licence holder for nearly 50 yrs. I raced in MANZ events and historics often at the same meeting. In 1989 I heard of a threat to Historic organisers who would not line up with MANZ (one being Country Gents) and wrote a much publicised letter to MANZ (Refer:Skidding the Tyres in Classic style-Eileen McMillan). They replied (also published) to their credit, but it did not dispel the notion I held that GP motorsport as we new it was loosing its appeal to the regulars and we had to accommodate new ideas. About that time Motorsport News (Aug 1990) recorded that circuit owning clubs would ban from their venue any non MANZ member club or group! That left historic racing in a bit of a bind.
MANZ at the time was pointing out that motorsport as we knew it was not working, but clubs were springing up that were. Although clearly each club made their own decision the influence of MANZ was there and the remedy was wrong.
My reasoning was that a GP at Ruapuna in those days pulled say 5000 spectators and a Country Gents at Wigram - (able to be run by a non sanctioned club because it was not at a MANZ sanctioned venue) pulled say 30,000 spectators over two days.
Fast forward to today...have we learnt anything....it is all becoming too difficult and no wonder we have the commentary above. Chris Read- Arrowtown. Have to say Arrowtown and not Queenstown anymore, as that's where we live and my wife comes from Arrowtown and...... you get the picture.

As you probably know Chris,I was one of the group lead by Allan Bramwell, that started Country Gents and was a President for a couple of years. The threats we received from Manz as it was,then were on going and heavy. When we shifted to Wigram at the encouragement of Colin Rudd,[ Base Commander RIP] we even had a plot brewed by an Air Force officer, based in Wellington, who was involved with motor sport where by he instructed my liaision officer to tell me unless we joined MANZ the following year we would no longer have the use of the base.On referring this to Colin we were told that it was not Air Force policy and said junior officers where reprimanded . These threats were made while they knew the could not be upheld in any court. This is the bit MSNZ do not want us to know. The decision made on14 dec 1989 before the Commerce commission re Speed way Control Board VNz outlaw Racing Inc and the Circle Track association of NZ Inc. The Speedway Control Board had gone to the Commision to prevent the opposing groups from running a parallel operation. They lost on all counts It is decision 242 and A J Smithard and I Snellgrove were there for MANZ. They could not carry out their threats to cancel licenses for drivers and track owners and they knew it. The trouble we had was we were unaware of this at the time. A copy of this decision is readily obtainable from the Commerce Commission

[Chris Read]

We do need a Motorsport structure for safety, co ordination etc but one stop shop often does not apply. Non MANZ/MSNZ Classic racing grew on its own as the 'rules' did not always apply - Schd K etc went some way to appease and allowed classic racing to operate under MSNZ. But many like myself were happy to run at a MSNZ Nat race or rally but when it came to classic racing did not need the overkill.
Example: presented my 1955 Historic single seat for scrutineering. Roll bars pre '60 are not mandatory mainly as the cars do not have the chassis points to properly attach. But nearly all of us with some innovative welding have them fitted best we can however they cannot meet certification standards in many cases. A MSNZ technical officer present said....if you have one it must be certified even if you are not required to have it. If it is not certified you can't race but I could take it out and race.
Now I sorted this out by making sure this well meaning fellow saw the error of his ways but classic racing does not need this.
Disclaimer: there is only one instance where the safety factor is outweighed by aesthetics - you would not put a roll bar on a 250F! Chris Read-Arrowtown

[jim short]

Amco I know plenty I was one of the first members of taccoc ..started out so well I thought they would control all motorsport one day then no this.no that replicare not wanted ect where are they today what was said when I bought the remains of the Paton {$400} Oh no hes not going to join taccoc with that my kids overheard Lady ?????? say then more important where we go to dinner ect ,But have no wish join the negative folk on here I am sure most car lovers know, well Jaguar lovers know about that D Type Jaguar Jack Shelly imported it 1956-7 Bob Gibbons drove it{ex hillclimb champion and cooper driver also deaf as a post}Angus Hyslop was next painted over the pale blue with white paint fitted a 3.8 mtr and so until John Riley owned it in 1960 it sat beside his v8 powered Monza on the front of his yard just before Westfield at the back lay the squalo Ferrari out in the open ,The steering wheel went missing then the gauges finally became the Morriari..Some yrs later John was going to start a race at Puke in his Lotus?/ when a Dutch farmer confessed he had taken up going to church and could not sleep would it be ok to return the wheel!.... The D was then bought by Noel Foster who lived at the top of Peach hill Ramarama! a very steep hill a couple of hillclimbs were held on it before it was decided that to much damage was been done I think that was the reason?/Noel used to take the car to work in Pamure quite often.the biggest problem ws the clutch .After he passed on his son and daughter sent it to auction in Eng sold close to two mill. nz $???

[markec]

The situation is much like many others, everything is fine until a human being becomes involved.Over inflated ego's have been the cause of most of the dissent throughout history, it would seem the operation within MSNZ is no different. The big negative is the perceived power of those who are appointed to do a specific task take on the role of god almighty then perform in such a way that, reason, common sense and where applicable,the application of the technical regs in a fair and just manner.
How often is it that little Hitlers worm their way into crucial positions and cause havoc amongst the competing membership.I personally know of 3 people, who after a minor unnecessary conflict with officialdom have walked away from the sport, 2 of which were quite significant sponsors to other competitors who also lost that sponsorship.The effect of one officials stupidity can have far reaching consequences.

[Carlo]

Not quite correct Carlo - for example, Tony Roberts unsuccessfully put his name forward for Executive last year and he's from Auckland and an historic/classic competitor.

Sorry you are right Roger, Tony stood last year and achieved 24 votes against some very strong candidates, do you know if he is standing again this year as he should be a shoe in if he is for he was the highest poling candidate for the Historic and Classic advisory commission

[Dave Silcock]

I certainly have not heard such rumours, in fact I hear the very opposite and that includes the role and position of TMC in the future. The role of Motorsport NZ does not include running meetings and/or series and sometimes people get the role & title of TMC (The Motorsport Company) and MSNZ mixed.

However, I for one would love to see one ot two true historic classes run as part of the Summer Series alongside of Formula Toyota, FF, and NZV8

In the light of what has been posted here do you still stand by your assertion that MSNZ and TMC are separate entities?

[RogerH]

Sorry you are right Roger, Tony stood last year and achieved 24 votes against some very strong candidates, do you know if he is standing again this year as he should be a shoe in if he is for he was the highest poling candidate for the Historic and Classic advisory commission

I understand that Tony is not standing for the Executive this year which is a pity as in my opinion he fits your criteria of being "passionate and well equipped" a bit better than some of the incumbents.

[RogerH]

Disclaimer: there is only one instance where the safety factor is outweighed by aesthetics - you would not put a roll bar on a 250F! Chris Read-Arrowtown

Surprisingly someone has :

7181

[Trevor Sheffield]

Thanks Roger,

I see that unfortunately it is not necessary for MSNZ to use Clause 19,1 in support of the matter under consideration. Clauses 4.1, 4.11, and especially 4.15 provide an open cheque book. The constitution provides the individuals who finance the organisation, no protection whatsoever against the actions of the executive, who remain a law unto themselves. From a practical point of view the constitution constitutes toilet paper.

As it did 60 years ago, the key to the issue remains the MSNZ claimed exclusive representation of the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile ("FIA"). (Refer toilet paper clause 3.5.) N.B. FIA membership is limited to one National Automobile Club or Association per country. An FIA’ member’s activity must embrace the entire national territory and cover road traffic, touring, the defence of the rightful interests of users and their safety on the one hand, and motor sport on the other. Refer here. ---

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/the-fia/statutes/Pages/FIAStatutesContents.aspx

As it did 60 yrs. ago, the Automobile Association NZ (AA), in fact holds New Zealand membership within the FIA and this was somehow delegated to ANZCC which became MSNZ. Refer ---

http://www.aa.co.nz/about/the-aa/affiliations/

The first step is to establish the exactly how MSNZ legally claims and establishes their exclusive rights to represent the FIA and then, investigate how the undemocratic MSNZ, might be controlled via their overlord, the AA. Surely it is the AA siting in the driver's seat.

How is it that only a single motor sport organisation remains exclusively under the umbrella of the AA?

Trevor.

[Oldfart]

Surprisingly someone has :

7181

And covered it with stickers! Looks more like an Indy car!

[RogerH]

My understanding Trevor, is that both the AA and MSNZ are separately affiliated to the FIA - MSNZ as the National Sporting Authority and the AA an Affiliated Club - see : http://www.fia.com/en-GB/the-fia/member-clubs/oceania/Pages/NewZealand.aspx

I suppose the issue could be how MSNZ assumes, through it's affiliation with the FIA, that it "controls" all motor sport in NZ. I don't think this assumed monopoly would ever stand the scrutiny of the Court. There are a number of motor sport activities that give two fingers to MSNZ/FIA - the likes of stockcars, offroad racing etc. When you think about it, the FIA means very little to the average Kiwi competitor apart from some FIA generated red tape. However, it does mean that every competitor is faced with more costs through licence fees, event entries etc as MSNZ passes on the costs they incur through their connection with the FIA.

The FIA affiliation does provide the ability for MSNZ to "tax" Kiwi competitors who, for example, want to compete overseas. When I compete in Australia, MSNZ obligates me to get a Trans Tasman Visa ($256). The last couple of times I fronted up to do documentation in Australia they didn't know what it was, didn't want to see it and didn't require it! When I questioned a MSNZ head office official what I actually got for my $256, he told me that if I could afford to compete in Australia then I could afford to pay the Trans Tasman Visa fee!

[AMCO72]

So, it's almost a 'like it or lump it' situation. They have got you by the balls. If you want to compete you comply. The VCC manage it, so why not some other new club....HRC for instance.

[Chris Read]

Surprisingly someone has :

7181

Philistine!! Definition : one who is hostile or indifferent to culture or whose interests are commonplace. At least they chromed it!

If Dave McK sees this he will recognise it as probably #2522 with whatever provenance it has today, and will be aware of my brush with the car and one Mr Cottam..... enough said eh Dave! - Chris Read-Arrowtown.

[RogerH]

You have summed it up right Gerald. However, in Australia there is quite a significant group of competitors and some track owners who have broken away from CAMS/FIA and are successfully doing their own thing.

If your car fits under the VCC category then they are an option as they are affiliated to MSNZ and FIVA. A VCC Competition Licence costs $23 and last for 5 years (a MSNZ Competition Licence costs $138 and lasts for one year). A VCC log book costs $10.22 (a MSNZ log book costs $51). No wonder MSNZ don't see "eye to eye" with VCC.

The bits of paper and issuing processes are the same but the costs are very different .................

[jim short]

I think it looks ok quite good

[Trevor Sheffield]

Roger,

Unfortunately copy and paste into my browser does not provide me with entry to the site you have specified. I have also typed it in manually without success. Please check and confirm. --- http://www.fia.com/en-GB/the-fia/mem...ewZealand.aspx is correct.

Thanks, Trevor.

[jim short]

talking about 250f

[RogerH]

Roger,

Unfortunately copy and paste into my browser does not provide me with entry to the site you have specified. I have also typed it in manually without success. Please check and confirm. --- http://www.fia.com/en-GB/the-fia/mem...ewZealand.aspx is correct.

Thanks, Trevor.

It should just link in by clicking on the web address in post #43.

I have re-listed the link which should be able to be clicked on to provide the link :

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/the-fia/member-clubs/oceania/Pages/NewZealand.aspx

Alternatively, go to the FIA web site. Click on "The FIA" (top left), click on "Member Clubs", click on "Oceania", click on "New Zealand" and you will get to the link I listed.

[AMCO72]

Has anyone got a good word to say about MSNZ? It sounds to me as though we should be giving them the one-finger salute and branching out on our own. What's to stop us?

[Russ Cunningham]

talking about 250f

Is this a statement, a question or just nonsense?

[crunch]

Has anyone got a good word to say about MSNZ? It sounds to me as though we should be giving them the one-finger salute and branching out on our own. What's to stop us?

Ah;...I do actually, and I do have some not so good ones as well.
Firstly to address the continous moans that I always see and hear on these types of forums.
1. I dont have an over-inflated ego.
2. I dont holiday at some tropical beach at MSNZ's expense
3. I dont get paid any type of directors salary/gratuity or honararium.
4. TMC THe Motorsport Company and MSNZ ARE two entirely different identities. As far as financial years are concerned, different dates is not an ideal situation for reporting at the MSNZ AGCM, but TMC does have to report to its own AGCM. This is explained every year at AGCM, but people just choose to ignore or not believe this and answers to questions they are given
5. I wont get into the whole VCC scenario, but baically some competitors like it just cause it's a "seemingly" cheaper option. Thier choice.
6. Whomever stated that MSNZ does not value Formula Toyota is blantantly ignorant or probably more to the point; just ill-formed. F/T was set up over 8 years ago as a joint project with Toyota NZ as it continuing to be treated as such with regular contact between Toyota NZ and MSNZ. Toyota NZ supported Prodrive through it's whole life and has always been a valued participant of projects such as the Motorsport Academy.


I guess with any forum, or news type site, negativity sells.
I would like details of any complaints from the previous 12 months regarding service from MSNZ, especially in the field of roll-protection or homologation or anything else that has stopped the person using the vehicle; THAT IS THE FAULT OF MSNZ.
Please email me and I will sort out and will issue any apologies required.

I wont answer slanging comments or just repeated age-old critisisms and urban myths. For instance; why would MSNZ want to take over the SFOS?????? Geez; where did that come from? MSNZ is a governance body, not a promotions one. IF SFOS asked for help; it is MSNZ 's job to help. I nearly snorted my coffee up my nose after reading that one...

As for geographical representation of the Executive...so what? Does any governance board have that as a primary reason for electing someone? I thought we elected people we thought could do the job,..it's not my fault I was born in and failed to escape from Palmerston North!
But if it is a burning issue; then for God's sake; stand for election if you come from somewhere North of real New Zealand!!
In the end; should we have equal representation from all areas geographically; or perhaps more importantly, proportional representation by numbers of members in a club. I prefer that better.

MSNZ is a tax department in essence, and we all hate the tax deptartment, especially if we dont personally see anything for our $$! So then we have to think collectively; are my $$$ helping the sport in my "area" (geographical or interest).

So moving on from that; I wont respond to any generic complaints from people who are pissed with MSNZ for whatever reason (some I am sure are justified, as I am also sure some are a chinese whisper from years ago). But I will answer any questions based on fact or about problems somebody is experiencing with the governance side of the sport.

Maybe just a rider to that is the whole constitution thing; leave that for Conference so make sure your club representative knows what your thoughts are!

Gotta go as I need an early start as I am working in the MSNZ Office all day tomorrow and its a 4 hour round trip, and I'm not getting paid.

Crunch

[DJMcD]

Oh dear, I have heard most of this over many years of involvement. Until Clubs constitutionally change the status quo nothing will change. Wrong thread I know but who was the World Champion who said, "Who the hell is MANZ, I thought they were some Australian outfit!"

[GeebeeNZ]

Crunch, As one who has served on many different motoring organisations for years and given hours of free time without anyting in the bank (like you)I agree that you dont get anything in the way of compensation for your time on the Motorsport executive but you do have a responsibilty to ensure that the stewardship of the not inconsiderable amount from members meets the current standards of the NZ Institute of Chartered Accountants.There is clearly no excuse to ignore the report of the Auditors in terms of the balance dates of TMC and fact that as MSNZ holds a 60% share the accounts should be consolidated.Your comments in (4) above are simply not acceptable and the fact that this has gone on for years is clearly an indication of the arrogance of MSNZ and the complete apathy of the bulk of the membership in things financial. Also let me assure you that the VCC option (5) is clearly not just a "seemingly" cheaper option. The bulk of the 70 odd entries in the Hampton Downs meeting next weekend are from cars that would never have competed in a MSNZ event in MSNZ's present format. Believe me there is more to it than just money.
Having read RogerH's comments, as no doubt you have, I believe they are from very intelligent people who have a deep concern for some of the current practices within MSNZ. They are not negative comments from a bunch of losers. Your Executive would do itself a service to consider them. Graeme Banks

[crunch]

Never ever would I presume anyone's comments are from a bunch of losers, and no where have I indicated that.

I too have some concern with some of the practices within the governance of MSNZ. However under the present Executive I have yet to uncover arrogance as one of them.

The TMC/MSNZ relationship is a mess. It runs a lot more than just reporting dates for auditors. What is done is legal, but perhaps not in the best spirit.

The relationship between VCC and MSNZ is semi-regular at the moment. I communicate coordialy with the President when and if it is required. We have a face-to-face meeting every year (April) where we discuss any issues of concern. This month will be no different

[crunch]

THe President has listened to the concerns of Roger H and others. He has had long discussions with them and given some undertakings as a result. I am not party to those.

Indeed these are learned gentlemen, but they are not the only intelligent people out there. Intelligent people in our sport are at all levels, and I meet and talk with them often.

Thanks for the response Graeme

[crunch]

Who was that World Champion?

...and it's MSNZ.
MANZ is the Motel Association of NZ

[RogerH]

Good to see Crunch posing on this topic - and without trying to "pee in the pocket", he is one of the MSNZ Executive that is approachable and does seem to understand that there are some shortcomings in the structure that need addressing.

One point that Crunch makes that I have an issue with is "TMC The Motorsport Company and MSNZ ARE two entirely different identities". TMC is majority (60%) owned by MSNZ and of the three TMC directors, one is a MSNZ appointee and another is an ex-officio Office Bearer of MSNZ. TMC resides in MSNZ's premises and MSNZ provides funds to TMC. The intertwining between MSNZ and TMC is extensive and they are a long way from being two entirely different entities.

Perhaps part of the problem with TMC is that MSNZ Executive fail to appreciate that having a majority shareholding in an entity (on behalf on MSNZ members) obligates MSNZ to know what is going on with TMC and to ensure that there are proper governance controls. I get the impression that MSNZ just lets TMC do what it wants to.

[Steve Holmes]

Remember, The Roaring Season is a discussion forum for motorsport history and historic racing. I've visited various discussion forums for years and I've yet to read a discussion thread on modern motorsport that doesn't get overly heated and emotional, and end up as an all-out slanging match. Rarely does anything good come from these. As long as this thread stays on topic, is fact based, and doesn't stray towards the topic of modern day motorsport, I'm happy.

[DJMcD]

Who was that World Champion?

...and it's MSNZ.
MANZ is the Motel Association of NZ

Today its known MSNZ but was originally called Motorsport Association of New Zealand (MANZ) The quote was from Denny Hulme. Non de plumes are fine but who is "Crunch"?

[rf84]

Congratulations to Roger and TACCOC. As an Observer at the upcoming MSNZ Executive meeting in Auckland in May I received a copy of their Remit about a month ago. It has been published in our HB Car Club magazine so members have had an opportunity to have some input and direct our Delegate on how to vote.
This is how the system should work. Roger and TACCOC have followed the correct procedure and are to be commended for doing so. If all Clubs affiliated to MSNZ did the same they would be empowering their members by giving them some voice in the decisions made by MSNZ. By not following this model the Committees of car clubs are simply failing their members who (justifiably) feel that they are powerless to change the rules and regulations that govern our sport. In fairly typical Kiwi fashion they bitch and grumble about the situation to their mates and on forums such as this and soon get p----d off with the whole administration.
Perhaps in future you should put the 'hard word' on your respective car club Committees to do what Roger and TACCOC have done with this Remit. Follow the correct procedure. Don't blame the 'system' for failing you when you don't use the system correctly. TACCOC have used the system correctly and as a result have a very real chance of effecting a big change in the organisation of our sport.
This is the only way we will get true representation of rank-and-file car club members at the MSNZ Executive meeting. Maybe then the situation will be as it should be-where the dog wags the tail. Not the situation we have at the moment where the tail (MSNZ) controls us. Or, to put it another way, a situation where "the monkeys no longer run the zoo".

[RogerH]

Today its known MSNZ but was originally called Motorsport Association of New Zealand (MANZ) The quote was from Denny Hulme. Non de plumes are fine but who is "Crunch"?

Crunch is Raymond "Crunch" Bennett who is a Vice-President of MSNZ.

MSNZ have a policy of appointing an Executive member as Chairman of each Advisory Commission. As there are no Historic and Classic Executive members Crunch has been appointed as Chairman of the Historic and Classic Commission even though his background has been in rally (he is a rally co-driver).

I have dealt with Crunch on a number of occasions and found him to be a "good guy".

[logy22]

A major problem with motorsport in nz at the moment is with the event promoters continually competing against each other for example having Timaru and Teretonga NZV8 meeting the same weekends as the festival of motor racing there are people who are involved in both like Motorsport Solutions. Everbody needs to sit down and sort this out it killing NZ motorsport

[crunch]

Certainly right Logy22.

[Russ Cunningham]

Remember, The Roaring Season is a discussion forum for motorsport history and historic racing. I've visited various discussion forums for years and I've yet to read a discussion thread on modern motorsport that doesn't get overly heated and emotional, and end up as an all-out slanging match. Rarely does anything good come from these. As long as this thread stays on topic, is fact based, and doesn't stray towards the topic of modern day motorsport, I'm happy.

Steve,

With due respect, I beg to differ. Modern day motorsport is exactly what the thread is about & it's plain to see that a large number of folk are very unhappy.

The Roaring Season Forum is a ideal place for this discussion to take place if it assists in change.

Regards,

Russ Cunningham

ps. I realise it does not fit into the historical context but where else can enthusiasts and competitors express their thoughts? There are no other website forums that I'm aware of dedicated to Kiwi motorsport followers.

[jim short]

Try ten tenths thats all they do nzv8s. nzv8 tomrrow petch and his pals some use 3 diff names to win there point!!!!

[Steve Holmes]

Russ, The Roaring Season isn't an NZ website, its international. It has international membership and international content. The text at the bottom of the Header reads "International Bench Racing Community For Historic Motor Racing And Motorsport History". It does have very strong NZ content, thanks in part to my passion for NZ motorsport history, but its an international website. I have nothing against modern motorsport, I follow several different formulae around the world, but there are plenty of forums that already cater for this. In my experience, the subject of modern motorsport and motorsport governing bodies almost always gets extremely heated, and ends with people getting pissed off and just leaving the forum for good.

Ten-tenths has an international and national Single Seater section: http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=26 and they have an Australasian Touring Cars section: http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=37 I've read several NZ related threads on both of these.

If I let a debate about the state of modern NZ motorsport run, I then have to let similar threads be created for the US, the UK, Australia, etc etc, and before we know it, The Roaring Season is no different to any other online discussion forum.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Steve,

You are on the right track. An adequate cross section of points has been recorded and the thread can be closed after repitition of this previous post by rf84, which exactly sums up the situation. ----

Congratulations to Roger and TACCOC. As an Observer at the upcoming MSNZ Executive meeting in Auckland in May I received a copy of their Remit about a month ago. It has been published in our HB Car Club magazine so members have had an opportunity to have some input and direct our Delegate on how to vote.

This is how the system should work. Roger and TACCOC have followed the correct procedure and are to be commended for doing so. If all Clubs affiliated to MSNZ did the same they would be empowering their members by giving them some voice in the decisions made by MSNZ. By not following this model the Committees of car clubs are simply failing their members who (justifiably) feel that they are powerless to change the rules and regulations that govern our sport.

In fairly typical Kiwi fashion they bitch and grumble about the situation to their mates and on forums such as this and soon get p----d off with the whole administration. Perhaps in future you should put the 'hard word' on your respective car club Committees to do what Roger and TACCOC have done with this Remit. Follow the correct procedure.

Don't blame the 'system' for failing you when you don't use the system correctly. TACCOC have used the system correctly and as a result have a very real chance of effecting a big change in the organisation of our sport.

This is the only way we will get true representation of rank-and-file car club members at the MSNZ Executive meeting. Maybe then the situation will be as it should be-where the dog wags the tail. Not the situation we have at the moment where the tail (MSNZ) controls us. Or, to put it another way, a situation where "the monkeys no longer run the zoo".

[john l]

could some of the problem re lack lustre meetings be that virtually all modern classes are control classes?

[Steve Holmes]

Steve,

You are on the right track. An adequate cross section of points has been recorded and the thread can be closed after repitition of this previous post by rf84, which exactly sums up the situation. ----

Congratulations to Roger and TACCOC. As an Observer at the upcoming MSNZ Executive meeting in Auckland in May I received a copy of their Remit about a month ago. It has been published in our HB Car Club magazine so members have had an opportunity to have some input and direct our Delegate on how to vote.

This is how the system should work. Roger and TACCOC have followed the correct procedure and are to be commended for doing so. If all Clubs affiliated to MSNZ did the same they would be empowering their members by giving them some voice in the decisions made by MSNZ. By not following this model the Committees of car clubs are simply failing their members who (justifiably) feel that they are powerless to change the rules and regulations that govern our sport.

In fairly typical Kiwi fashion they bitch and grumble about the situation to their mates and on forums such as this and soon get p----d off with the whole administration. Perhaps in future you should put the 'hard word' on your respective car club Committees to do what Roger and TACCOC have done with this Remit. Follow the correct procedure.

Don't blame the 'system' for failing you when you don't use the system correctly. TACCOC have used the system correctly and as a result have a very real chance of effecting a big change in the organisation of our sport.

This is the only way we will get true representation of rank-and-file car club members at the MSNZ Executive meeting. Maybe then the situation will be as it should be-where the dog wags the tail. Not the situation we have at the moment where the tail (MSNZ) controls us. Or, to put it another way, a situation where "the monkeys no longer run the zoo".

Thanks Trevor. There is already quite a bit of discussion on this thread about NZ historic racing, so I'm happy for it to keep running, if anyone wishes to discuss the matter further.

[richard lester]

could some of the problem re lack lustre meetings be that virtually all modern classes are control classes?
i really believe the biggest change over the past decade or two has been TV/playstation/gameboys/music/facebook/computors/drugs/other sports/all night clubs/laziness/rebellion etc etc etc and not in any particular order--the worlds changed.when i grew up we had rugby racing cricket and motorsport and fanny all on the new TV and being indoors was not cool................motorsport events were an enjoyable family outing regardless of what was on show for many.......

[Russ Cunningham]

Russ, The Roaring Season isn't an NZ website, its international. It has international membership and international content. The text at the bottom of the Header reads "International Bench Racing Community For Historic Motor Racing And Motorsport History". It does have very strong NZ content, thanks in part to my passion for NZ motorsport history, but its an international website. I have nothing against modern motorsport, I follow several different formulae around the world, but there are plenty of forums that already cater for this. In my experience, the subject of modern motorsport and motorsport governing bodies almost always gets extremely heated, and ends with people getting pissed off and just leaving the forum for good.

Ten-tenths has an international and national Single Seater section: http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=26 and they have an Australasian Touring Cars section: http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=37 I've read several NZ related threads on both of these.

If I let a debate about the state of modern NZ motorsport run, I then have to let similar threads be created for the US, the UK, Australia, etc etc, and before we know it, The Roaring Season is no different to any other online discussion forum.

Thank you for the reply, Steve. I can see your point of view.

Regards,

Russ

[conrod]

i really believe the biggest change over the past decade or two has been TV/playstation/gameboys/music/facebook/computors/drugs/other sports/all night clubs/laziness/rebellion etc etc etc and not in any particular order--the worlds changed.when i grew up we had rugby racing cricket and motorsport and fanny all on the new TV and being indoors was not cool................motorsport events were an enjoyable family outing regardless of what was on show for many.......

I think you have hit the nail on the head Richard. So many other things competing for the entertainment dollar these days. We will never see crowds again of the size that we used to 20+ years ago.

Which means we have to look at other ways to help fund the sport, rather than relying on selling tickets at the gate. Invariably it means that we as competitors will end up paying a large portion ourselves in the form of entry fees (what, the star performers have to pay to attend??!!!!) but we do still have it very good in NZ. An event in the UK or US will cost many times more to compete in than what we pay here.

As you say, the world has changed, and we must adjust accordingly:)

Conrad

[Lurker]

Interesting article in the Herald - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10798978

[crunch]

Interesting article in the Herald - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/motoring/news/article.cfm?c_id=9&objectid=10798978

An interesting read....lacking in fact in places, but hey; what else is new?

Where do the rumours that Hampton Downs is going broke come from???

[Oldfart]

An interesting read....lacking in fact in places, but hey; what else is new?

Where do the rumours that Hampton Downs is going broke come from???

Tall poppy?

[PaulieG]

I think you have hit the nail on the head Richard. So many other things competing for the entertainment dollar these days. We will never see crowds again of the size that we used to 20+ years ago.

Which means we have to look at other ways to help fund the sport, rather than relying on selling tickets at the gate. Invariably it means that we as competitors will end up paying a large portion ourselves in the form of entry fees (what, the star performers have to pay to attend??!!!!) but we do still have it very good in NZ. An event in the UK or US will cost many times more to compete in than what we pay here.

As you say, the world has changed, and we must adjust accordingly:)

Conrad

While this point is valid, as a younger menber of this forum, and a mad keen motorsport enthusiast, and while a young family and 60+ hours a week at work restrict my participation to watching and attending motorsport events, I must say that I believe the fans can be drawn back to the tracks as a measure of entertainment and a family day out. What the sport needs is effective promoters that can draw the crowd as a full family experience. I realise that money is scarce at the moment but asking competitors to fully pay for a meeting turns the event into a track day. It would be hard work, but the Supertourer franchise have started the ball rolling, with awesome promotion and some very good racing. In the recent years (other than club events) I have been to A1GP, NZV8's, Aus Supercar, and NZ Supertourer. Other than the main category the Supertourer support categories were awesome, especially the Honda Cup and Muscle Cars. As many people stayed to watch these events as the main event. Why can't historic sport cars or F5000 jump on board and fill out the slots with some amazing sounds and racing? Why cant motorsport fraternities stick together, sort out the best classes to run and stick with them to create a series worth investing in? Re-invest in Formula Ford, push Toyota Series, bring back the Minis or Swift Series, include Honda Cup, Historic/Central Muscle Cars, F5000, Supertourers and V8 development, and BMW series. Ten national meetings throughout the year 2 @ Puke, 2 @ Hampton, 2 @ Taupo 2 @ Manfield 2 @Ruapuna. Each track gets the same opportunity to promote the meetings, and get some patronage to help push their club racing. Only ideas and by no means a perfect solution, but worth thinking about!:cool:

[stirlingmac]

I too am a long time motorsport nut, and I find the current fields in the Tier 1 meetings boring. I have watched the new Supertourers and don't find them exciting. I am over the Ford vs Holden stuff.... I relate to my hero cars so classic meetings are more my thing with I guess most of the visitors on this site. I believe as enthusiasts we relate to the cars and drivers we saw as heros when we were first bitten by the bug, be that Denny in a McLaren, Brock in a Holden or Reg in a Nissan. It is the reason that classes like Central Districts Muscle Cars and Historic Muscle Cars are flourishing. Many years ago now I was part of the team which developed the MG Classic meeting and saw it go from strength to strength, so I was a little surprised to be told in the weekend by a reliable source that the next meeting may be the last !! I get excited about seeing a field of ex Shellsport saloons and OSCA and sports sedans roaring around. Having a family of teenagers I have seen where their and their mates attention is grabbed regarding current motorsport. Drifting is number 1, followed by drag racing. Most of them love the old school cars..Escorts, Datsuns and muscle cars. Open wheelers don't get a look in including F1. The future of motorsport in NZ will I believe consist of two distinct factions, as has already developed. There will be those trying to run current cars and championships chasing corporate money and the others that are happy to run in cars /fields of historic and classics running primarily out of their own pockets and volunteers. The feilds of classics obviously will get larger as there are more of them. My interests won't change too much in the next 20 yrs and I think it will be a safe bet that I still won't be interested in watching a 20 yr old fully restored Suzuki Swift racecar in a classic meeting, because I just won't relate to it.. but there will be people who will relate to it and recall at the time what they were doing/experiencing when the cars were current. "Variety is the spice of life"...as my grandma used to say.

[PaulieG]

Funny you should mention the MG Classic meeting. My father Roger has attended the event every year for 15+ years but last year decided for the first time that it was too expensive for a weekend racing. So the Buckler sat in the shed. It hasnt moved since we returned from the NZFMR in 2011! (Albeit we have been hard out restoring the Lotus!) but regardless by the time he paid for three nights accomodation, entry fees petrol for racing and towing and food you can kiss goodbye to 1500 bucks. Shows one example of why young people tend to play the video games etc when its so much cheaper to stay at home, and it isnt surprising why competitor numbers are dropping. As far as heroes go mine too were Peter Brock Dick Johnson etc, but my kids now look up to the likes of Johnny Mac and Greg Murphy as these guys are accessible to todays youth. If only there was a way to bring back the racing of the 60's and 70's to todays market.

[stirlingmac]

Cost is a huge factor, I was shocked at the ticket price for the Leadfoot Festival for instance...I'm used to trudging through stages and watching for stuff all. As for Playstation I am getting pretty good at Gran Turismo 5 and I don't owe any vital organs to a panel beater or engine builder !!

[logy22]

PaulieG i totally agree with your options especially about motorsport fraternities working together we also have to remember that Timaru & Teretonga are also NZ race tracks. It may be more expensive more competitors to travel to this tracks but they are an important part of nz motorsport and always draw good crowds to there meetings.

[PaulieG]

PaulieG i totally agree with your options especially about motorsport fraternities working together we also have to remember that Timaru & Teretonga are also NZ race tracks. It may be more expensive more competitors to travel to this tracks but they are an important part of nz motorsport and always draw good crowds to there meetings.

Timaru and Teretonga would definately be up there. What really bugs me is the lack of consistency within NZ Motorsport. If you look at the Honda Cup or BMW Series, they are built to last, unlike the Swift and Mini series which disheartens people as they invest 40-50k in a car to have it ruled obsolete two seasons later to be replaced by the "next affordable series" Maybe an allcomers series would be the go? Even bringing back the SS2000 series would mean the average punter could go along to a track and see some good reason and the competitors would have immense fun. I know we have to progress in the sport, but we dont have to keep up with the rest of the world as far as club events go. Watching Top Gear on Sunday night, they had an absolute ball for less than a set of golf clubs! And that wasnt just the entry fees either! :p:cool:;)

[Kiwiboss]

This came though today via MSNZ's April E-News, we all have great ideas and some have been bandied about on this post, SO here's your chance to do something about it!! Hmmm anyone willing to step up?

Dear Member
April has marked the conclusion and beginning of various championships and series on circuits and roads around the country. Wellington Car Club hosted the final round of the National Hill Climb Championships and the locals put up a strong performance against the Championship contenders. Congratulations to Sloan and Taran Cox, who are the 2012 National Hill Climb champions.
The Independent Race Classes (IRC) finished their season at Taupo. It was great to see the strength and support of the fields in all ten classes. Congratulations to those that won their respective classes.
Shorter days mark the beginning of the rally season and the Brother International Rally of Whangarei highlighted some fresh young talent. Mixing it with the big boys, 19-year-old Alex Kelsey, in a Group A 4WD, became the youngest-ever competitor to win an NZRC Round. The rule change, which allows Group A cars to contest the NZRC, I'm sure will be watched with interest by many.

Next month sees our AGCM being held in Auckland. As a democratic organisation, it is critical that we have consistent and fresh representation. I am regularly reminded of members' concerns regarding perceived bias and lack of performance, so it is disappointing only a handful of nominees have put their hand up for election.
I realise that people lead busy lives, but please bear in mind that most MSNZ representatives volunteer their time and do the best they can by the organisation and its members. If you feel change is needed, you have to put yourself in a position to facilitate it; otherwise, be grateful for those who do commit to furthering our sport. I look forward to catching up with those of you who are able to attend the AGCM this year, celebrating our champions and paving the way for the sport in 2012/13.

Shayne Harris, President

So good on TACCOC taking the initiative!! my take of adding different class's/vehicles, SS2000, Honda Cup, etc and Historic/Classic's at Tier 1 meetings a tough call, you can't have the so called Tier 1 premier events been watered down with vehicles/class's that have an uneven performance level(Muscle cars, pre 65, GT1, NZGT) due to the nature of the different vehicle types and also ones financial ability to out "Money" the other racers. I too find Swift and Mini's boring but these are vehicles that are available NEW from the dealer today, with an equal performance level(suppose to be) hence show casing the drivers ability, particularly the young up and coming drivers without millionaire dad souping it up to gain that unfair advantage for little Johnny(hopefully). Most new cars don't impress me today at all, but in modern Motorsport this is "all we have" that's why the premier big bucks class's have to go the way of the "Car of tomorrow" and "Supertourers" to level the playing field, although boring but not always!! NASCAR have proved this by taking away the emphasis from the vehicle and putting it onto the driver/team, a NASCAR is just a bunch of pipes, wheels, lift of body, same engine, etc(you guys know what i mean) but look at the crowd they pull, and just like the V8 Supercars, anyone that thinks its a Holden or Ford winning this weekend is dreaming, its the best team and driver that's got there shit together, but they do put on a show. Now here's a thought for us diehards, maybe a supertourer but with old school bodywork, hell atleast they'd LOOK great, XY Falcon, HK Monaro, Camaro, Mustang, yeah that'll work, now wouldn't that be COOL!!

But really as for answer's, hell i don't know!! I'll just stick to Classic/Historic racing for FUN ONLY, and even that's bad enough these days!! and as for Cost's/Money, etc? people will always spend what they think is rite for "them" depending on ones financial wealth, what may seem cheap to one person is expensive to another and it must be true because were/they're still out there doing it while other country's are going broke. I personally think were all quite lucky in this country when it comes to Motorsport, i've just had an American mate out for Beach Hop and Wanaka Air show, he doesn't believe we only have 4.5M people, he thinks it more like 40.5M as to him everyone seems to own a race car, a classic, a Air Plane, race tracks everywhere, etc? interesting observation but i have corrected him.

There you go, Dales thoughts of the day

Dale Mathers

[rf84]

Interesting debate.
A few observations. The Hawkes Bay Car Club set up a "BOS" class some years ago. I believe credit for creating this class should actualy go to the Manawatu CC. BOS is an acronym for Bucket Of Shit. Basically regs said you had to race a car which cost less than $250. This was later raised to $500 (thats inflation). For several years the class was huge in both Clubs-in the case of the HBCC we were regularly getting 20 or more entries in the BOS class and 30 entries in total.ie 2/3rds of he entries were BOS cars. The past 2 seasons we had 1 BOS car! It is hard to imagine a cheaper form of motorsport. Yet it is not well supported. So we can't blame cost for the low number of entries.

[ROTATN]

A very interesting read. I too am one of the younger followers on the forum.

As has been discussed previously the current top level motorsport in NZ isn’t very entertaining. Whilst I had high hopes for super tourers and still think it’s a superb class and a much needed breath of fresh air and technology, it still needs some tweaking to make me want to part with money to watch after what I have seen on the TV. I follow it but only because at the moment its the best of the rest.

For me it’s the lack of variety. Unless you like Holden’s or Fords & V8's there isn’t something to cater for your needs. Whilst I don’t mind Fords, Holden's and V8's & appreciate any race car I’m passionate about other manufacturers and engines. So therefore I am not catered for. There is nothing for me to get excited about other than the driver which I don’t care what he drivers. I can’t really tell the difference between the two in the SuperTourers anyway. Nor does it make me want to go and buy one on Monday.

I enjoy the classic racing for a number of reasons and hence why I run my car at & follow those types of meetings/classes. There is variety. There are different cars and engines in the field. This also makes for entertaining racing. Plus it’s the cars and drivers I remember watching when I was young and the way the cars moved around etc. The likes of muscle car masters & Historic muscle cars & Central muscle cars solve this with the tyres etc which has worked. It’s just like classic rally cars vs. the current 4wd. The top cars are so perfect it’s boring, but seeing a BDA escort at full lock doing 9,000rpm is far more entertaining. The crowds come for the muscle cars etc we all know that so that formula works right?

I don’t think there is anyone amongst us that didn’t like the giant killing performance of Fogg in the Mini. It was entertaining because where one car was weak the other was strong, which meant the cars passed etc. I couldn’t wait to see where he was each lap. With the Supertourers yes the cars are equal but once you get into the lead it seems very difficult to get by. How long before we see DRS or a KERS system to make passing more feasible.

For me the glory days were the Group C & A cars (hence why I own one). You had 4, 6 & 8 cylinders, turbo’s and rotaries all in the same field. Different rounds suited different cars and again one was faster in the corners/braking the others in a straight line. You had staunch followers of the different brands which meant they were passionate fans.

I like Dale Matthers suggestion of the SuperTourer formula with old body work. We all like the old cars a common chassis beneath that you bolt your bodywork to would be great.

I also partake in some of the 4 & Rotary events. Some won’t be familiar as its not there scene (which thank god is why we are all different). However the crowd numbers leave any IRC or tier 2 or NZFMR meeting I have attended for dead. They all like the old cars so it’s not like the youth aren’t interested. So the youth do like motorsport but obviously there isn’t currently anything they want to watch. So how does one change that?

As others have stated when I’m the age of my dad taking my kids to the racing what will we be watching at the classics? I have great pleasure going to the meetings with my Dad having him tell me about the old Custaxie or Jim Richard’s old escort at Bay Park & the Morrari etc. How anyone can get excited about a Suzuki swift, you sometimes wonder if they are on the warm-up lap as the speed & sound doesn’t seem to change.

[AMCO72]

ROTATN........welcome to your first post on the RS, BUT how dare you call the Amco Mini 'WEAK'. Well, as the weekend went on it turned out to be a bit weak, in certain parts. But you are right, the crowd loves a David and Goliath act, small HP v's Big HP. The Mini has serious HP, for a Mini using Mini components; ie not twin cam heads etc. We have a little way to go to get some reliability,as it is now pushing out over 150 HP and the attendant HEAT has got to be got rid of. We think we have a good, ie not weak, head gasket now, and with a bit of attention to the cooling we should be OK. Thinking that a 50 year old Cooper S radiator was going to do the trick, well we must have been dreaming. That is a pretty special little engine it has in it, and with a decent driver behind the wheel, in other words, NOT Grandpa, it can show the way to a lot of the big HP cars. A lot of this is down to handling/road-holding, and being small and chuckable. I'm dam sure I wouldn't like to swing those big Mustangs and Camaros round the track, especially when it's wet. You are right that we need races with a variety of cars competing together, and that is why Dales HMC class does so well......and it will only get better.

[markec]

I didn't think Cooper S radiators were that efficient back in the 60's with almost standard power.It's an area that has been neglected/overlooked since the sport started,now trying to get enough air into the radiator is a challenge.

[screwdriver]

Newbie here (joined today!) - but I believe that an overhaul of MSNZ's promotion and handling of tier 1 is overdue. To push onto free to air TV, grids of 10/12 cars and promote this as "Tier 1", it is no wonder that spectators stay away.
Logic suggests that if that is Tier1 and the cream of NZ Motorsport, then by default, all other meetings will be of lesser interest to the paying spectator.
Those involved at Classic & Historic level know full well that entries of 250+ at Classic events at both Pukekohe and Hampton Downs plus Manfield in the North island, are now the norm.
Even a one day Classic Club meeting has more race entries than tier one - and the racing is often better (variety, speed, drama etc).
But what representation do the 250+ drivers get at conference? Maybe 1 vote from TACCOC, 1 from HRC, 1 from BMW (who represent road cars as well as racecars, as do Alfa and MG).
No wonder the north cannot get an adequate representation, as the sheer number of southern clubs and those with zero interest in racing, have an equal vote, yet may have no idea of the issues facing the active drivers who line MSNZs coffers each weekend.

Even a small club meeting with a total of 90 entries a few weeks ago sent a cheque to MSNZ for $2,400. For what? The larger local classic meetings must therefore be sending a cheque for well over $5000. Minimal representation. Yet a club with a dozen members - none of whom are regular racers, gets the same voting power as say BMW with 150 racers. Even worse is that other long running series such as Arrow Wheels and AES, (also I believe with well over 100 drivers), get zero representation! Crazy and totally undemocratic.

[Racer Rog]

In reply to Screwdriver
Put your name where your mouth is, you are Auckland, do you belong to a Club? the AGM is in Auckland, come along and with your clubs support, you will have speaking rights, and you can put your case, on what ever you like, I have attended for many years, and have managed to be heard ( because I'm louder than most), come along to H & C meeting, support Roger Herricks motion through your club, and tell the top table just where you think they are going wrong ( and in some cases they are) but if people don't go and put their 2 cents forward, it just remains same ole same ole so while people on this tread have been moaning about lack of representation in the dorkland region, sorry Auckland region, the AGM is on your door step, make sure you attend.
Roger

[RogerH]

In reply to Screwdriver
Put your name where your mouth is, you are Auckland, do you belong to a Club? the AGM is in Auckland, come along and with your clubs support, you will have speaking rights, and you can put your case, on what ever you like, I have attended for many years, and have managed to be heard ( because I'm louder than most), come along to H & C meeting, support Roger Herricks motion through your club, and tell the top table just where you think they are going wrong ( and in some cases they are) but if people don't go and put their 2 cents forward, it just remains same ole same ole so while people on this tread have been moaning about lack of representation in the dorkland region, sorry Auckland region, the AGM is on your door step, make sure you attend.
Roger

Thanks "Racer Rog" for the support but just to avoid confusion, I (Roger Herrick) am not "Racer Rog" - I'm "RogerH" - so I'm not beating my own drum. Also, the remit is not actually mine but a remit from TACCOC - I'm a committee member of TACCOC and had some involvement in drawing up the remits.
Any support at the MSNZ Council meeting next month would be greatly appreciated by TACCOC.

[richard lester]

In reply to Screwdriver
it just remains same ole same ole so while people on this tread have been moaning about lack of representation in the dorkland region, sorry Auckland region, the AGM is on your door step, make sure you attend.
Roger
Dorkland,sorry dude you just lost me with that.....
Not all MNZ is a problem.
agreed TMC is a problem.
A lot of barrows being pushed in this thread and general criticism's when specific issues are the problem.
sorry to say after a lifetime in this sport that i dont see much change happening in this fashion.

[Trakshots]

Motorsport NZ Media Release



19 April 2012




New direction for MotorSport NZ’s promotion company


There will be a new approach to the promotion of premier race meetings in 2012. A new name – MotorSport Promotions Limited – a new board and some new faces will complement a raft of other changes for premier classes in the next Championship season.

MotorSport New Zealand has announced a new six-member board as part of a plan to revitalise the promotion of the premier race season in 2012. The appointments supplement existing board members Bill Brown, representing circuit interests, Auckland businessman Shane McKillen and CEO Martin Fine.

Stepping up to lead the charge are Toyota New Zealand’s general manager of finance John Fowke, South Island businessman and motorsport identity Ian (Inky) Tulloch and David Dovey, current president of the IRC, the independent race class series which has supported both the premier series and Toyota International Series this year. Additional specialist appointments are also expected to be made.

“The move to widen the board is a conscious effort to include more stakeholders in the business of promoting the premier end of the sport,” MotorSport President Shayne Harris said in announcing the appointments. “Having the support of key stakeholders like the Toyota Racing Series and NZV8 Championship sends a clear signal to competitors and sponsors alike that the promotions company remains a vital link in creating a real place to showcase the sport at its most competitive level.”

“Careers are made from winning New Zealand Championships and New Zealand is fortunate to have some of the best trophies in its trophy cabinet, including the GP title and the coveted Gold Stars,” he said.

The appointment of the IRC coordinator means closer ties to many of the other promotable and growing categories. “There is a lot of synergy between our respective series,” said Dovey. “This tie-up will help the company offer IRC classes an opportunity to step up to the main game, while supplying additional classes at some championship meetings. It also gives us access to promotional expertise at some of our meetings,” he said.

A new role of marketing manager for the V8 category has also been created, with long-time motorsport marketing guru Brian Lawrence joining the team from Australia.

“This restructure gives us a good opportunity to evaluate our business, access some new talent and harness some new technology,” said Fine. “Motorsport isn’t just about cars racing on circuits; people want to be entertained both on and off track. The opportunity to fill our programmes with a great cross-section of motorsport will satisfy the needs of the true petrolhead, but at the same time we will be offering great entertainment for families in the areas around New Zealand where our shareholding circuits are operating,” he said.

Further announcements are expected following the first board meeting later this month.

-ENDS-

From: MotorSport New Zealand
PO Box 9368
Wellington

Contact: Shayne Harris
0274438455

[Racer Rog]

This does not surprise me, Shane is slippery as a eel in a bucket of snot, but this should not change the game plan, its just rearranging the deck chairs on the Tatanic
Roger

[Grant Ellwood]

Great to see Brian Lawrence coming back with some influence on the future of New Zealand motorsport.
Good luck Brian, from a distance - Grant Ellwood, Virginia, USA

[Trevor Sheffield]

In other forums I post as "Noble Kiwi", trusting that this title will be read and understood on the basis of the applicable phonetics. Furthermore, I can provide ample evidence to the effect that I know my way around when it comes to commerce and the business sector.

I state as a matter of fact, that a press/media release as such, amounts to the excretion of a carefully contrived measure of bovine manure.

As I see it the individual sportsmen involved in NZ motor sport by default, are paying for and even worse are indemnifying the cost of promoting of a commercial product.

Trevor.

[AMCO72]

Goodness me Mr Trevor Sheffield. Fancy you posting on a Forum under a pseudonym. After your outburst on the 'username' thread, post 15, I am beginning to think that you may be full of "bovine manure", and not necessarily "carefully contrived". And as post 96 on this thread is' so subtle that it has gone completely over my head', could you please explain the 'applicable phonetics' in the pseudonym 'Noble Kiwi'.

[Russ Cunningham]

Motorsport NZ Media Release



19 April 2012




New direction for MotorSport NZ’s promotion company


There will be a new approach to the promotion of premier race meetings in 2012. A new name – MotorSport Promotions Limited – a new board and some new faces will complement a raft of other changes for premier classes in the next Championship season.

MotorSport New Zealand has announced a new six-member board as part of a plan to revitalise the promotion of the premier race season in 2012. The appointments supplement existing board members Bill Brown, representing circuit interests, Auckland businessman Shane McKillen and CEO Martin Fine.

Stepping up to lead the charge are Toyota New Zealand’s general manager of finance John Fowke, South Island businessman and motorsport identity Ian (Inky) Tulloch and David Dovey, current president of the IRC, the independent race class series which has supported both the premier series and Toyota International Series this year. Additional specialist appointments are also expected to be made.

“The move to widen the board is a conscious effort to include more stakeholders in the business of promoting the premier end of the sport,” MotorSport President Shayne Harris said in announcing the appointments. “Having the support of key stakeholders like the Toyota Racing Series and NZV8 Championship sends a clear signal to competitors and sponsors alike that the promotions company remains a vital link in creating a real place to showcase the sport at its most competitive level.”

“Careers are made from winning New Zealand Championships and New Zealand is fortunate to have some of the best trophies in its trophy cabinet, including the GP title and the coveted Gold Stars,” he said.

The appointment of the IRC coordinator means closer ties to many of the other promotable and growing categories. “There is a lot of synergy between our respective series,” said Dovey. “This tie-up will help the company offer IRC classes an opportunity to step up to the main game, while supplying additional classes at some championship meetings. It also gives us access to promotional expertise at some of our meetings,” he said.

A new role of marketing manager for the V8 category has also been created, with long-time motorsport marketing guru Brian Lawrence joining the team from Australia.

“This restructure gives us a good opportunity to evaluate our business, access some new talent and harness some new technology,” said Fine. “Motorsport isn’t just about cars racing on circuits; people want to be entertained both on and off track. The opportunity to fill our programmes with a great cross-section of motorsport will satisfy the needs of the true petrolhead, but at the same time we will be offering great entertainment for families in the areas around New Zealand where our shareholding circuits are operating,” he said.

Further announcements are expected following the first board meeting later this month.

-ENDS-

From: MotorSport New Zealand
PO Box 9368
Wellington

Contact: Shayne Harris
0274438455

Shayne,

Am I correct in presuming that Brian Lawrence's appointment will just add further costs to motorsport competitors in NZ.

No disrespect to either of you.

Regards,

Russ Cunningham

[screwdriver]

In reply to Screwdriver
Put your name where your mouth is, you are Auckland, do you belong to a Club? the AGM is in Auckland, come along and with your clubs support, you will have speaking rights, and you can put your case, on what ever you like, I have attended for many years, and have managed to be heard ( because I'm louder than most), come along to H & C meeting, support Roger Herricks motion through your club, and tell the top table just where you think they are going wrong ( and in some cases they are) but if people don't go and put their 2 cents forward, it just remains same ole same ole so while people on this tread have been moaning about lack of representation in the dorkland region, sorry Auckland region, the AGM is on your door step, make sure you attend.
Roger
Unfortunately, I will be overseas otherwise I would have done! Last year, I even booked and paid for a flight to conference for the Classic & Historic workshop, but having been told earlier the scheduled time, it was changed to a later time and it then wasnt worth it for 30 minutes, before catching my flight back and before heading overseas again the following day.

As it happens I belong to a club with a large membership and that means that regardless of my opinions, the club representative is no doubt guided by a committee and cannot therefore represent each member.

[Trakshots]

Motorsport: New body has teething issue
Herald on Sunday By Paul Lewis
5:30 AM Sunday Apr 22, 2012

Moves from within its membership to turn MotorSport New Zealand into an entity which has administrative and regulatory functions but no commercial interests in the sport face a difficult birth, judging by MSNZ's latest move.

An announcement on Thursday revealed the formation of a new motor racing body, called MotorSport Promotions Ltd, tasked with promoting premier race meetings this year.

Its advent comes as car club members of MSNZ are tabling a remit at next month's annual general meeting calling on MSNZ to shed its commercial interests, run through companies in which it has majority shareholding - The MotorSport Company (TMC) and Rally of New Zealand Ltd (RNZ).

The new body will take over the sport's promotional duties. MSNZ is effectively owned by its members - the scores of car clubs around the country who pay about $1m a year in fees - and sources within the sport detailed to the Herald on Sunday last week that there was growing discontent at the way MSNZ and TMC manage the sport. Complaints were made about a lack of transparency and suspicions about salaries being paid to key people as well as travel, entertainment and general expenses.

The move to shift the parent body away from commercial interests in the sport includes the reasoning that, as MSNZ Inc is a non-profit organisation, it is unable to obtain any financial benefits from the promotion companies.


"Essentially, MSNZ's involvement in TMC and RNZ has no financial benefits for member clubs but exposes them to significant risk should either TMC or RNZ have financial difficulties. Both TMC and RNZ are operating in an environment where financial adversity is a realistic prospect," says the remit to be debated at the AGM. "Additionally, it is considered that it is wrong in principle that a regulatory and administrative body should have commercial interests in the activities that it is regulating and administering. Such a commercial involvement creates the potential for conflicts of interest."

However, with the formation of MotorSport Promotions Ltd, MSNZ seems to be heading off such moves and persisting with its commercial operations. The new body has a six-member board which includes the current CEO of TMC, Martin Fine, existing board members Bill Brown and Auckland businessman Shane McKillen. Also involved are Toyota New Zealand's general manager of finance, John Fowke, motor racing identity Inky Tulloch and David Dovey.

"The move to widen the board is a conscious effort to include more stakeholders in the business of promoting the premier end of the sport," MSNZ president Shayne Harris said. "Having the support of key stakeholders like the Toyota Racing Series and NZV8 Championship sends a clear signal to competitors and sponsors that the promotions company remains a vital link in creating a real place to showcase the sport at its most competitive level."

"This restructure gives us a good opportunity to evaluate our business, access some new talent and harness some new technology," said Fine. "Motorsport isn't just about cars racing on circuits; people want to be entertained both on and off track."

However, a cross-section of those opposed to MSNZ's commercial functions remained committed to change, saying the new body was the old one in different clothes. One said: "You can put lipstick on a pig but, at the end of the day, it is still a pig."

By Paul Lewis | Email Paul

[screwdriver]

Needless to say, any new structure as above will not be of any advantage to the Classic & Historic fraternity, arguably one of the strongest sections of the sport with the least support. TV yesterday - great Muscle car grid. Can't say the same about either Utes or NZ V8s. If they can't even manage 15 cars on such a high profile (international) event, they need to look elsewhere for support classes.

Heck, they (initially) had over 40 (interesting) entries for the Roycroft pre 1945 sports car grid. Whilst the average one eyed Holden/Ford supporter may think that they are rather pathetic, there are plenty of others who would have had their eyes opened.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Goodness me Mr Trevor Sheffield. Fancy you posting on a Forum under a pseudonym. After your outburst on the 'username' thread, post 15, I am beginning to think that you may be full of "bovine manure", and not necessarily "carefully contrived". And as post 96 on this thread is' so subtle that it has gone completely over my head', could you please explain the 'applicable phonetics' in the pseudonym 'Noble Kiwi'.

The recent Herald article exactly confirms what I carefully pointed out in my post #96. I am not concerned that obvious facts involving common business sense fly over the heads of those that assume they are bigtime.

I say again, "the individual sportsmen involved in NZ motor sport by default, are paying for and even worse are indemnifying the cost of promoting of a commercial product." What is more, without any hope of enjoying any profits which may accrue as a result the use of the capital they have risked. By contrast those involved in administering the free funds can have a ball.

No bull,

Trevor

[RogerH]

The recent media release by MSNZ is, I fear, part PR hype, part re-packaging of the same old product and part an addition of some new components.
The directors (and presumably the bulk of the management) of TMC move across to the new entity and the concerns of principle have not changed one bit.
Among the issues is the question of whether the concept of MSNZ being commercially involved in promoting "Tier 1" is in the interests of member clubs (and by association, competitors) - is the financial and resource input by MSNZ really in the interest of historic and classic motor sport competitors who make up a significant proportion of the NZ motor sport fraternity?

[grelley]

We are all currently paying for TMC. A number of years ago when TMC initially got into financial difficulties with the NZ V8s, all competition licences were levied around $50 per year. This extra levy has never been dropped.

[screwdriver]

The directors (and presumably the bulk of the management) of TMC move across to the new entity and the concerns of principle have not changed one bit.

Positions that don't seem to be voted on by those who pay the annual fees, so yes Roger, you are 100% correct and I hope that conference attendees jump up and down and make some strong noises.

Maybe we should all lobby the Vintage Car Club to accept all classics (even the marginal ones), and then we could organise and race under the VCC banner rather than MSNZ? It would be totally feasible and commercially a lot cheaper for all of us, as not only would the licences and logbooks be cheaper, but race entry fees could drop by at least $25 and we'd probably get even more drivers into the fold!

I suspect that many of the VCC members would like to come out and race more than once a year too, so we might have far more interesting race meetings.

Only people to miss out would be MSNZ hierarchy, but their work load and expenses must also drop. Users pay.

[PaulieG]

I like how they pipe on about having the support of the nzv8s, rather pointless really considering the effect the Supertourers are having on the class. SuperTourers have double the cars of nzv8s and I never saw the likes of Murph, Scott Dixon, Tony Kanaan and Alex Davison come over to race a nzv8. Drop the political BS and just do whats best for the sport! not what some douche behind the scenes wants to do just to get one up on someone else. I'm sure its the same in other countries, but this is NZ, we dont have access to 4 million people in one city, to get the crowds like overseas. I wonder if you took the spectator count at the supertourers and took it as a percentage of the population in..lets say a 100km radius of the track..., I reckon they would be up there with the rest of the world. No science behind that just pure speculation. I just want to enjoy motorsport! :cool:

[jim short]

I surgest you take your idears to the ten tenth forum and perhaps you should join manz and show how to do it rather than drag this foram down jim short

[RogerH]

I surgest you take your idears to the ten tenth forum and perhaps you should join manz and show how to do it rather than drag this foram down jim short

Jim, you are of course entitled to your views (as is everyone else) but I struggle to follow your rationale for wanting to close this thread as it purportedly drags this forum down. This forum deals with both historical motor sport and current historic and classic motor sport (for example, the Roycroft thread). There have been a number of posts questioning what the MSNZ/TMC structure does for the historic and classic competitor and accordingly I believe that at least those aspects of the thread are relevant to this forum.

[Oldfart]

Positions that don't seem to be voted on by those who pay the annual fees, so yes Roger, you are 100% correct and I hope that conference attendees jump up and down and make some strong noises.

Maybe we should all lobby the Vintage Car Club to accept all classics (even the marginal ones), and then we could organise and race under the VCC banner rather than MSNZ? It would be totally feasible and commercially a lot cheaper for all of us, as not only would the licences and logbooks be cheaper, but race entry fees could drop by at least $25 and we'd probably get even more drivers into the fold!

I suspect that many of the VCC members would like to come out and race more than once a year too, so we might have far more interesting race meetings.

Only people to miss out would be MSNZ hierarchy, but their work load and expenses must also drop. Users pay.

It is not that the Vintage Club would not like the classics, it is an agreement with Motorsport precludes that.
Your next statement about racing more than once a year is not accurate as there are quite a few events. At this stage only 2 circuit meetings in the North Island but more other events than is poss for most of us to attend, numbers of hillclimbs where the 1960 date is not enforced, as that date relates only to circuit meetings.
Remember most of these meetings are staffed totally by volunteers, and they have lives too!

[GeebeeNZ]

What a load of weasel words we have in Shane Harris's press release. We can all see throught the new company as being more of the same and it will be interesting to see if they bring their balance date into line with Motor Sport NZ and report their financial results to the M Sport AGM. As for employing Brian Lawrence to promote NZ V8s what a waste of members money. Unfortunately for MSNZ the V8 Supertourers is now the premium V8 category and whatever the legalities or whether you like Mark Petch or not it has happened and one day motorsport is going to realise that promoting NZ V8s as a tier one class is a dead duck. Its like CART and Indy Car all over again and the only way for it to gain strength is for one class to come out of it. As for Shane looking after the shareholding circuits well we all read that as meaning we wont support Hampton Downs. What a disgrace. It has been mentioned that the VCC should extend its date and include more classics. This is not up to VCC who have tried this but MSNZ will not allow this at any cost so VCC is currently going along with 1960 to keep some form of harmony. We dont want the stuation to get back to where it was a few years ago where MSNZ virtually banned the VCC from competing on any circuit in NZ. The VCC has come a long way from then as was demonstrated with the Roycroft Trophy. I know that Jim Short had his son and grandson competing in the NZ V8s today as was Geralds Son but Angus like most of the top drivers has seen the light and moved on. No disrespect Jim but MSNZ clearly has to get its act together and pooring money into a dead class is not in the interest of its membership.

[stirlingmac]

What troubles me the most about the NZV8 vs ST is that the concept was an NZV8 one and had the collective brains that were originally entrusted with it's development stuck with the the plan they would have been onto a winner,and there would have been no division. NZV8s had right idea unfortunately it appears some of the people entrusted with its development were'nt trustworthy....

[PaulieG]

What troubles me the most about the NZV8 vs ST is that the concept was an NZV8 one and had the collective brains that were originally entrusted with it's development stuck with the the plan they would have been onto a winner,and there would have been no division. NZV8s had right idea unfortunately it appears some of the people entrusted with its development were'nt trustworthy....

I did read about that, and while it may be so, supertourers are here regardless I think just get on with the racing and show the world we are a unified front, not torn into little pieces, while I thoroughly enjoyed the nzv8s in their time, someone had to do something.

And if people don't want to read others opinions, maybe stay off threads like these.

[GeebeeNZ]

Racer Rog suggested we go to the MSNZ AGM and with our clubs support have our say. The structure and funding of MSNZ is an interesting one. A few years ago I was a member of 3 clubs and each club paid a capitation levy for me. Yes 3 times for 1 person and yet I had no voting rights. The only contact MSNZ has with its wider membership is with those who have racing licences and yet the majority of members that MG, Alfa, etc pay for never race. Clubs get one vote no matter how many members they have and clubs whose main focus is Rallying can vote on historic matters and vice versa that is why it is so hard to get sometings changed. A dozen of us are thinking of forming a club becoming afiliated to MSNZ and having a vote. Strangely we would have the same status at a MSNZ AGM as Auckland Car Club and the Alfa and MG clubs who have large memberships. There has to be a message there. Not all democracies are truely democratic.

[PaulieG]

Racer Rog suggested we go to the MSNZ AGM and with our clubs support have our say. The structure and funding of MSNZ is an interesting one. A few years ago I was a member of 3 clubs and each club paid a capitation levy for me. Yes 3 times for 1 person and yet I had no voting rights. The only contact MSNZ has with its wider membership is with those who have racing licences and yet the majority of members that MG, Alfa, etc pay for never race. Clubs get one vote no matter how many members they have and clubs whose main focus is Rallying can vote on historic matters and vice versa that is why it is so hard to get sometings changed. A dozen of us are thinking of forming a club becoming afiliated to MSNZ and having a vote. Strangely we would have the same status at a MSNZ AGM as Auckland Car Club and the Alfa and MG clubs who have large memberships. There has to be a message there. Not all democracies are truely democratic.

How many people needed to form a club? You could quite quickly have enough clubs to swing a vote either way! It is a rather strange system really.

[GeebeeNZ]

I guess you need 15 to form an Incorporated Society under the Incorporated Societies Act 1908. That would give it some credibility.

[PaulieG]

Just thinking, would a ballot system work, where each club collected votes etc so every payed up member has a voice? or is it as simple as an online poll?

[GeebeeNZ]

I dont think you will ever change it, MSNZ likes it as it is. Getting money from someone often more than once and not letting them have a vote probably suits their ideals.

[Trevor Sheffield]

How many people needed to form a club? You could quite quickly have enough clubs to swing a vote either way! It is a rather strange system really.

N.B. The Constitution of Motorsport includes Rule 5.1:- Motorsports membership shall comprise of clubs who are interested in automobile sport and who are accepted by Motorsport as its members.

[richard lester]

Racer Rog suggested we go to the MSNZ AGM and with our clubs support have our say. The structure and funding of MSNZ is an interesting one. A few years ago I was a member of 3 clubs and each club paid a capitation levy for me. Yes 3 times for 1 person and yet I had no voting rights. The only contact MSNZ has with its wider membership is with those who have racing licences and yet the majority of members that MG, Alfa, etc pay for never race. Clubs get one vote no matter how many members they have and clubs whose main focus is Rallying can vote on historic matters and vice versa that is why it is so hard to get sometings changed. A dozen of us are thinking of forming a club becoming afiliated to MSNZ and having a vote. Strangely we would have the same status at a MSNZ AGM as Auckland Car Club and the Alfa and MG clubs who have large memberships. There has to be a message there. Not all democracies are truely democratic.
this has been the issue down through the years-who gets to vote for what.
in my lifetime in the sport i still remember well when Morrie Chandler and my father were President and Vice President of manz(for 20 years).--as it was then.
they took the reigns and we didnt have date clashes for major events and we had rally people deciding what was best for rallies and circuit people governing the tarmac series in conjunction with the tracks and classic/historic enthuasists entrusted with their disciplines as well as trials/hillclimbs etc etc being tended by the people involved.
give the job to the correct person sort of deal..
what happened???.
now its a shambles and dis jointed and with so so little trust.
everyone is bagging everyone else and honestly nothing will be resolved this way -emotion has well over ridden common sense.
a structure or re structure is required for sure..
the MG(example) car club should not be voting on what happens with the summer motorracing series as much as the capri car club(example) should be voting on things to do with the rally championship and the NZIGP be voting on classic historic issues.
maybe dont bag MNZ as a whole and work to put some structure back into the various classifications and let the right people work with their areas of expertise and passion..
MNZ hierarchy are not all criminals who need to be hung -drawn and quartered as made out on various forums.some are out of their depth for sure but specific structure needs to be addressed far more than sacking the lot and re introducing the death penalty..........
between this forum and ten tenths things are getting pretty ugly and personal and as per usual being blown out of all proportion.
the various gripes and vitriol on the forums at present are not new and i have spent many a dinner time listening to what the current complaints are(or were) ,but nowadays these are way more personal.
if some of you actually re read some of the threads and stopped to take it all in you may see things a little clearer.....or diferently.
i mean how long has Shane Harris been at the helm--1 term?????? and he's worthy of walking the plank.....seriously...!!!!!
personally i have been a racer/team manager/team owner/driver trainer and coach,parent to a current racer and spent many years chasing the sponsorship dollar and grown up with parents running a circuit as well as being heavily involved in MNZ and the summer series etc etc..i have never seen the sport so muddled with so many people thinking they know whats best and pushing their barrow really hard.
in reality most of you actually dont have the big picture in sight--tho you think you do-----just your particular interest which has become very all consuming.
now i guess i am open for a tongue lashing....

[GeebeeNZ]

Richard, I think its great that people like you who have some credibility in the Motorsport scene can see the same problems that a novice like myself can see. We need more people at your level to raise these issues and hopefully MSNZ will take a good look at itself and see that there are currently problems at mill.

[screwdriver]

What is so difficult these days about an on line poll of licence holders - rally on major rally issues, racers on major race issues etc? It is no longer rocket science as MSNZ have already run at least one poll - but not on the issues. More efficient than relying on a club to collect info.

However, as anyone who has ever polled its club members will tell you, you'll be lucky to get a 15% response rate which in itself is a problem, so, you make it part of the on line licence renewal. (I presume most on here with licences do now renew on line?) I have to say that MSNZ has to be applauded for getting up to date with on line renewals - though I did receive two licences this year.

Re running under the VCC banner - we already have the volunteers and the online entry systems and whether we pay a permit fee to MSNZ or VCC and run under their auspices makes no difference, but it would allow race meetings to run with a mix of pre and post 1960 cars, effectively making VCC a breakaway organisation.

It was rather a tongue in cheek suggestion of course, but MSNZ often do not seem to understand many of the issues of running a vintage car or even a relatively unmodified classic car, without demanding F1 safety standards and an oppressive red tape regime. Better to leave all those issues totally to a separate organisation even if under the MSNZ umbrella, as several of the key issues over recent years have made running a classic or a historic harder, not to mention more expensive, rather than easier and cheaper.

[jim short]

My point was Dont spoil this site ..take you moans to ten tenths and I have my say without including Geof or Martin who do not need any help from me..next year will be interesting as motorsport has been down this road many times Trans Ams all over again!

[RogerH]

N.B. The Constitution of Motorsport includes Rule 5.1:- Motorsports membership shall comprise of clubs who are interested in automobile sport and who are accepted by Motorsport as its members.

The other MSNZ membership criteria is :

Application for Membership: A club or organisation which is interested in automobile sport and which is an incorporated society may apply to MotorSport to be a member.

So a MSNZ qualifying club or organisation needs to be an Incorporated Society which under the Act needs a minimum 15 members at the time of incorporation. However, there is no MSNZ ongoing test regarding minimum members numbers. I have heard of a MSNZ club which fell to one member - yet they had a vote exactly the same as a club with 300 members.

[jim short]

Just a small point how many thousands enjoyed the Hamilton race???

[Kwaussie]

Kwaussie did - the entire weekend was great.
Shame that aussie TV lost the last two laps of the final, the presenters were mortified. They made up for the NZ connection problem by replaying a couple of times.
Very good presentation. Must go - GP about to come in live!

[PaulieG]

My point was Dont spoil this site ..take you moans to ten tenths and I have my say without including Geof or Martin who do not need any help from me..next year will be interesting as motorsport has been down this road many times Trans Ams all over again!

Trans Ams again???? Haven't heard that one, but oh well at least we know what to expect aye :)
No one wants to spoil this site, I for one think its fantastic and it has been invaluable in my research, I seem to spend quite a lot of my free (and not so free) time on here just reading the yarns on here and looking at the awesome photos.

[jim short]

Trans Ams came about when certan folk could not get control over Sports Sedans,thats partly true ,Bob will know all the details.Sports Sedans {north island } and Osca {south island} had a great run in the 80s almost an open book build what you like capri v8s and rx7 v8s were popular plus many other makes and the crowds loved them Bay Park was there home thanks to Peter Hanna most of the muscle cars shown on here pos. ran there, then feb each yr. a north v south 5 car team ran at Teratonga Levels Ruapuna Manfield and Bay Park,then a certan gent and I use that word against my better judgment ,decided lets get some Trans Ams from USA only $150.000 each!!! hell my share into the Porsche was under $5000 and with the prizemoney we picked up I survived over 5yrs. raced at ever track had a great 5yrs .Just imagine starting between Algees Alfa and Huxfords Capri ! the noise the ground shook.with Osbourne right on your tail ,when he put on his overalls it just payed to stay clear!!yet off the track a real good guy.Then the cheating started the Ford Mercure ex USA only 50 made totally eligale{the rules stated 1000 had to be made} but it wiped the field and so on end the end they ran like the ST are already dueing follow the leader {but the costs will be down the motors are so good!! ask Andy Knight!!!} If and if anyone wants the complete storey go to Rotorua and speak to Mr Willis the same man who almost on his own rebuilt and restored all those Cat machines in the NZ Catapillar experiance on old Taupo rd. oppersite the gondalas. He has been involved with motorsport for yrs. and a straight talker,and as far as msnz Roger H and Trevor are propably trying to do the best they can for the sport,But after spending 3days reading the nzv8s and the nzv8s of tomorrow !1 on the ten tenths some and the same man using 3 different names the jelousey they make me feel ill come on motor sport is for fun and more fun I mean it costs enough!! OK Amco now all you have to do is correct the odd spelling mistake made on purpus

[AMCO72]

Jim, I'm far too busy correcting my own spelling mistakes to be worrying about yours. I don't care how many times you read what you've written before pushing the reply button, there will always be words missed, or wrong spelling, or comas and full stops missed out. Really you should get someone to proof read it for you, but who is going to do that. As Steve said, we all make mistakes with grammar..... Now, completely changing the subject Jim, I really must take issue with you about your recent postings on this thread. It is NO use going back to the 'good old days', and WERE they that good anyway, about how motorsport used to be. Those days are gone forever. We have to move on, yes there have been mistakes, and if we can influence how things are done today and in the future by lobbying or other means, well so be it. But it is no use getting an ulcer over it all. You had your fun way back when, just like the guys today are having their fun now, and the next generation will have fun in their own way. As I see it, us OLD guys, yes, you and me Jim, would be far better off joining in VCC events. After the Roycroft Trophy weekend, I am more convinced of than ever. The members, well a lot of them, are more our age..... you wont find the 15 year old hotshots that are racing today, because they would find what we like deadly dull. You have your memories, and I have mine, and on a forum like this it is good to share. Some of our tales of derring-do spun here on Y & Y by Bob, Bry, thunder 427 etc, make great reading, and we can relive those times simply by telling the 'new-boys', how it used to be. Some of them of course couldn't care less about the old days, but I like to think that chaps that browse this forum have an interest in the history of motor racing in NZ, and by crikey, hasn't there been a wealth of stuff posted on these pages, which might have been lost forever if Steve hadn't started RS. Now Jim, after you have read this, two or three times hopefully, to get right meaning, you can sit down with a nice glass of rum and think about what I have said. And I can guarantee there will be some spelling mistakes........ Henry Ford said something interesting, which sort of applys to how the modern generation think...........'History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition, we want to live in the present, and the only History that is worth a tinkers damn, is the history that we make today'....... I know thats not the way you and I think, but thats OK, I'm quite happy just tooling along, glad that I was born when I was.

[Oldfart]

To paraphrase that, my son, now working as a design engineer at Triumph Motorcycles (I am allowed to skite) was discussing with the owner of the company some previous (exciting) projects that did not make the market, and was told "Good to remember those, but we must always look forward, learn from the mistakes, but don't regret the past"

[AMCO72]

......Absolutely spot on. Could have saved myself all that writing, and Jim all that reading!!!.....AND...another Henry Fordism.......'you cant build a reputation on what you are going to do'

[Dave Silcock]

I don't why we are getting into whats happening to modern motor sport, excepting that it shows up what is wrong with the administation we have at the moment, as shown by issues Roger H and Trevor Sheffield among others have high lighted. You have got to ask yourself '' if you were young would you start motor racing to day''? In almost every case I would say the people on this forum would not. Firstly people like Bob, Jamie, Rik, myself and many others are not wanted. Its got to be a level playing field for that nut behind the wheel ! Its Ok to import a top driver but we can't be having any clever engine tuners messing things up can we now. This is why I myself would not race in modern racing today. Interresting to note that formula Ford was one of the first of this type and I am in formed a cross flow Kent for this formula today can cost you $30000!!! Although some of you don"t like a bit of tweaking [they were never this fast in the day sort of thing] if we in this type of old timer racing could not do it, you would not have the Foggy Mini or my Mk2. I think we need a complete break away from the mainstream and do our own thing. If you have been paying attention to my other posts you would realise that MSNZ has no automatic right to tell us what to do . I refer to decision 242 which none of our pro MSNZ members has chosen to refute.

[jim short]

Now Amco just settle down ,,the gist of my learned reply was for PaulieG,,and an ulcer never I actually enjoy debating with tall folk,,But Paulie G asked about Trans Ams .You mention I sort of live in the past not sure about that but to keep a car over 40yrs, pos,explains that loyalty is a good word..and you mention moving on as most of my tirade was {hope you got that word}about sports sedans cant honestly remember you been there and I may go ino the past only in the hope of not making the same mistakes!!But you continually go back to Henry Ford I ask you?? and between you and me I coudnt give a toss about STbut I can understand your stance now that you are one of the Dads,finally if I had known how upset you got never in a million yrs. would have got a ride in that lovelly two seater Austin 7 at HD,,and lastly prune juice is working better than the rum!!!

[screwdriver]

The level playing field does not exist in most classics/historics, unless they were a controlled formula in their day, such as Historic Formula Ford. From memory, and I am sure RogerH will put me straight, in its day, Formula Junior only had one class but the cars developed over time, from the mini front engined GP cars to mini rear engined GP cars. Now, to even things out a wee bit, they have several classes.

It is sad when many walk away from racing, thinking it is too expensive to be competitive, when there are in fact classes where a Jaguar V12 can race against a 4 cylinder Ford Escort, a Ferrari V8 or a Jaguar XJ6 or almost any Porsche. It is called handicap racing and whilst some decry it, those who compete in it appreciate that a midly modified Ford Escort stands just as much chance of overall honours as Bruce Manon's highly modified car, or Tony Roberts 700bhp Chev Corvette or Foggy's Mini. Even Gerald can race it in the other class on the same day if he wants. It means that those who want to apply a bit of classic expertise still can, either as a driver or mechanic, but if they go faster, then the handicap is tougher. Equally, Mike John can race Dave's Mk2, keeping it totally period.

Variety is far more attractive than NZV8, Aussie V8, or Super Tourers, but the majority of casual punters appear to like the V8s - any V8s, nothing but V8s, but I am sure they do want to see full grids and a fair bit of overtaking, not 10 car processions.

[Racer Rog]

One of the aims of the CoD system is give a even field when racing classic's and with the Audit program starting to take effect it is doing that, does it need more teeth? that is something that does need to be discussed, and at the H & C Commission forum at the AGM, maybe this will be talked (shouted?) about, and while Bruces car is well built, it does not comply with any set of regulations other than Schedule A, so its just a club car that looks like a Escort, I am very much in favour of the term, "as it was, so it shall be", and in fact don't mind a replica, as long as it follows that guide line. In Historic racing overseas they are taking a very firm line on this now, the FIA does allow replicas, and you can get a HTP for one,But it must be same as same as
And in taking the subject back to the topic, I do tend to think that some at the top table have lost the plot, in terms of what is wanted in Motor Sport in NZ, as our elected servants, they are there to govern the sport, not to set up so called money making companies.


The level playing field does not exist in most classics/historics, unless they were a controlled formula in their day, such as Historic Formula Ford. From memory, and I am sure RogerH will put me straight, in its day, the formula only had one class but the cars developed over time, from the mini front engined GP cars to mini rear engined GP cars. Now, to even things out a wee bit, they have several classes.

It is sad when many walk away from racing, thinking it is too expensive to be competitive, when there are in fact classes where a Jaguar V12 can race against a 4 cylinder Ford Escort, a Ferrari V8 or a Jaguar XJ6 or almost any Porsche. It is called handicap racing and whilst some decry it, those who compete in it appreciate that a midly modified Ford Escort stands just as much chance of overall honours as Bruce Manon's highly modified car, or Tony Roberts 700bhp Chev Corvette. It means that those who want to apply a bit of classic expertise still can, but if they go faster, then the handicap is tougher, but equally, Mike John can race Dave's Mk2, keeping it totally period.
Variety is far more attractive than NZV8, Aussie V8, or Super Tourers, but the majority of casual punters appear to like the V8s - any V8s, nothing but V8s.

[screwdriver]

Appendix K copes adequately with purist competition cars but the CoD does not make a blind bit of difference to the level playing field when all cars are so different, so you are missing the point. I have had my CoD since they first came out and it has never been out of the envelope it arrived in.

The T & C rules are at best a guide, but don't address several issues (what is a thoroughbred?) and insist on originality in areas that do not affect the performance one iota. If you run an MGB or a Ford Escort, parts are cheap and readily available, but have you considered the originality problems of running a Mk 7 Jaguar or a 1965 Ford Zephyr?

As far as most people are concerned, classic racing would be a lot poorer without the likes of Bruce Manon and without them and their cars, MSNZ and the race promoters would be worse off, so every one else then has to pay more for a meeting to break even.

Weeding out every single car that is not 100% period correct is fine if you believe totally in Appendix K and nothing else, but when HRC put in a class for Appendix K cars - there were two... They haven't bothered since as it is not what the majority of drivers want.

The drivers know what they want as do the various series committes or organisers. It doesn't need a set of MSNZ rules to decide what Alfas should and shouldn't run. That is up to the Alfa Trofeo committee and no one else. If they get it wrong, their series falls over. If they get it right, it succeeds.

Dale Mathers is building up support for the Historic Muscle Cars and I for one believe his series will be successful, but at this stage there are many who still want a looser set of rules. Nothing to do with MSNZ.

With any set of series rules, there are always dissenters and their options are straightforward. Either conform, set up your own series or go to a club race meeting, but therein lies the problem. Currently, a one day classic meeting will attract more entrants than a club meeting - and that is without CoDs. TACCOC meeting entries have shrunk dramatically ever since they adopted meetings that are "CoD only" and effectively turned away Alfas and other non CoD series. Are they getting larger grids without the Bruce Manon's? No.

[Oldfart]

Screwdriver, are you confusing Historic Formula Ford with Formula Junior?

[screwdriver]

Screwdriver, are you confusing Historic Formula Ford with Formula Junior?
Sorry, yes. I missed out the "Junior" bit. Now corrected it. Thanks for pointing that out.

[RogerH]

Just a few things related to the previous few posts. Firstly, the remits presented to the forthcoming MSNZ Council meeting have not been submitted in order to create some sort of gratuitous aggravation. They are a genuine attempt by people who care for motor sport in NZ to correct issues that they believe are hindering the growth and enjoyment of particularly the historic and classic fraternity. There are some elements within the sport who, for their own reasons, wish to maintain the status quo and in addition, from what I have experienced, I unfortunately do not think there is a genuine commitment at the top of MSNZ to significantly change anything. I fear that the remits will be "controlled" at the Council meeting and it will be a "fight" to get progress. I know that by taking a stance on this matter there will be those who will turn it into personal attacks but I suppose it just goes with the territory.
Secondly, with the CODs, TACCOC no longer has a mandatory COD stance and hasn't had such a position for over a season. In my opinion, CODs are conceptually great but in practice they have resulted in inconsistency. There are cars that do not have CODs but should and there are cars with CODs that shouldn't have them. TACCOC has taken the position that CODs are preferred but not essential, however we vet entries and assess how each car complies with the applicable regulations - Schedule K, T&C etc. We understand that this does restrict some cars from entering our events but this is something we are prepared to accept as a result of sticking to our principles. New opportunities arise though - TACCOC are going to cater for Dale's Historic Muscle Cars as they are a group that appear to be run against positive period compliant rules.

[AMCO72]

Trevor Sheffield....PM sent. Sorry for the delay, I forget to check my PM's.

[jim short]

Now Dave after a sleepless night and in spite of myself here i go again,,I know i am sick of me as well .But when an old friend foe? states hes not with Bob Jamie "Rick ",dont know him but sounds a fine upstanding chap are Not wanted!!!,Well years ago I played 1st fifteen both yrs.at high school scored the final try at Dilworth in the rain this is rugby Dave,,then as time rolled on I felt the same,no I was still in the team but peeling the oranges for halftime just felt differant.But life can turn out quite strange at times, now this is not guesswork I have read several books on the subject.being of small build like Tazio, no a bit bigger than him,has meant I can fit into most cars,cant always reach the pedals but once moving am fine.Now I must not go back over the past,not my fault I didnt have a motorbike,At Manfield a few weeks back I was there with the boys ,I have mentioned this before,and over the past yrs. I have taken Carols advice Carol was that sexy sec. at Bay Park Look Jim you just sit in the corner and have the young ones make you cups of tea as you have had your day.And she is dead right you soon get sick of being told watch out dad or leave that alone,you dont understand these computers.But now and again someone actually remembers you .Man its great to catch up again!! and when they{sometimes more than one} are gone you ask who the hell was that,,a classic one this rather nice looking women approx 50///60 ws all over me remembered all the old times the parties the tricks we got up to and she was built to ride motorbikes very streemlined, she even comented how many times she was mistaken for some country singer,after agood ten minutes she took off looking over her shoulder and smiling "good to catch up again BOB!!!! so Dave in time you will have that car running on all the jets and the sun will be nice and warm

[jim short]

Gee hope I didnt kill this site but just sitting in the sun thinking about all the neg{help me Amco}atives ,Form Ford always crops up Yet over the last 5yrs, with small feilds somtime only ten cars NZ at the moment we have three young promising future champs competing at Monaco in a couple of weeks and by the same token I have watched large grids of lets say BMWs, That does nothing for me the same as watching the Breakers, nothing but if involved in some way it would be different,Years ago my boys raced pushbikes Geof was Waikato Bay of Plenty sprint champion,,but the road racing was real boring you saw the start then you waited ages for them to return at times so bunched you didnt see what happend Turn the clock when the Muscle cars were curent,how many felt the same way as when they watched the NZ v8s last weekend.It apears some socalled motor enthusiests went home after 2!!!! 2 laps,It didnt stop thousands of others enjoying themselves ,What was the number quoted one hundred and seventeen THOUSAND paid to watch At the last Teratonga NZ v8s in the rain 3 cars produced on of the best races seen, This all that I have written is not to say i watched the whole lot,but the young ones have to start some place today and the v8s are the muscle cars tomorrow

[RogerH]

There is a real dilemma in motor sport that Jim has touched on. In the past such classes as Formula Ford were highly popular with strongly contested large grids. These grids produced a lot of our current top drivers. Now FF is but a shadow of its former self and it is lucky to get a handful of cars.
Where have all the drivers gone to? I'm not too sure but we do seem to have much larger historic and classic grids than we did in the past so maybe this sort of racing is more attractive - at least to a large number of participants.
Despite the spectator numbers at the Hamilton races I don't think the NZV8s were the attraction - the crowds seem to have gone to see the Australian V8 Supercars. When you look at the grids and crowds at the NZV8 races over the last season, it wasn't much better than you get at some club and national meetings - in fact there were so few NZV8s racing that they failed to met the criteria to qualify as a MSNZ championship series (a minimum of 15 entrants at 75% of the races).
I agree with Jim that we need to have a starting series to attract the new young drivers but we don't seem to have produced the right sort of grid to attract them - maybe we have missed the boat completely in that we are trying to provide the sort of grids that interest us but the kids are more interested in Playstation and drifting - not circuit racing??

[screwdriver]

Maybe there are too many grids trying to attract the attention of budding racers? By attention, that means highly sponsored and with TV coverage. With Toyota Race Series as the premier single seater class, plus Suzuki Swifts, V8 Utes, NZV8 and now Super Tourers, all competing for the mighty sponsorship dollar, plus TV coverage (which has to be paid for don't forget -no motorsport is covered for free), where do you position yourself?

There are even budding racers coming through the BMW E30 Series now.

Yet, we probably have more young Kiwis racing internationally than ever before.

The question about the minimum of 15 for a NZ Series needs addressing at conference as from what I have seen of the televised grids this year, there are far too many races where there have been less than 12 starters and if this is televised as the pinnacle of NZ motorsport, no wonder spectators and drivers stay away.

On a different tack, the TV3 coverage I caught up with last night of the last GT1 race at Hamilton was a disgrace. There we were with a massive grid, full of variety and all we saw was about 15% of the runners. TV producers need to understand that when there is variety in the field, we'd like to see it.

In the past, I know that the producers of privately filmed races were told that we wanted to see the whole field, not just the guy at the front - particularly in handicap races.

[richard lester]

There is a real dilemma in motor sport that Jim has touched on. In the past such classes as Formula Ford were highly popular with strongly contested large grids. These grids produced a lot of our current top drivers. Now FF is but a shadow of its former self and it is lucky to get a handful of cars.
Where have all the drivers gone to? I'm not too sure but we do seem to have much larger historic and classic grids than we did in the past so maybe this sort of racing is more attractive - at least to a large number of participants.
Despite the spectator numbers at the Hamilton races I don't think the NZV8s were the attraction - the crowds seem to have gone to see the Australian V8 Supercars. When you look at the grids and crowds at the NZV8 races over the last season, it wasn't much better than you get at some club and national meetings - in fact there were so few NZV8s racing that they failed to met the criteria to qualify as a MSNZ championship series (a minimum of 15 entrants at 75% of the races).
I agree with Jim that we need to have a starting series to attract the new young drivers but we don't seem to have produced the right sort of grid to attract them - maybe we have missed the boat completely in that we are trying to provide the sort of grids that interest us but the kids are more interested in Playstation and drifting - not circuit racing??
couldn't disagree more Roger.
Tier 1 or level 1 motorsport has fallen foul of the economic climate and rising cost's in general for tommorrows talent to try and emerge.
The names Evans/hartley/Stanaway/Dixon have not progressed with mum and dads cash only,all were recognised early and picked up by consortiums or benefactors,but that doesnt happen to all obviously..
most grids are down for the youngsters--look at Karting apart from the big meetings,it starts from there.
a good percentage of parents just cant justify taking a punt and pouring there life into there kids right now when a bit of security is more important.
i have sweated blood with my son Jono to get backing for his racing and to do the TRS season this year we were virtually giving away sponsorship packages and doing all sorts of contra's to make it happen and we were fortunate to get a GT contract in japan out of doing the series(almost free)......
The sponsorship dollar is extremely hard to get now especially if you are unestablished--dont forget that the majority of classic/historic racing has competitors who by and large have reached the mid to later age bracket and are reaping the rewards of their years of toil in the business world.
i think its incorrect to generalise the current state of motorsport here the big grid classes as being the favourite of competitors and crowds alike.
Dont get me wrong the muscle cars etc etc are great to watch and sound fantastic but we also live in a modern world that keeps marching forward.if you guys have been around as long as some of you state you will well know that the top end of the sport goes in cycles of strength and this would be about number 5 or 6 in my lifetime and will come right again in the future as it always does......
Guys V8 SUPERCARS were the main attraction at hamilton-- every other class was a support class to make up an interesting overall program.
Just because one or two of you thought the nzv8's were rubbish doesnt mean everyone thought the same.I have spoken to many people who thought they were great....
remember that most of the new youngsters coming or- not coming into the sport come in because they want.. to and have either parental or commercial backing of some sort....most dont yet know or have not heard the various gripes and complaints about the governing body or event management etc etc that fill the forums, so i dont think MNZ can be soley blamed for struggling grids.
MNZ did years ago start letting individual series registers have more control of what and how they move forward which has resulted in some good and some bad areas of the sport..
i could go on and on but now need a jim beam.........

[screwdriver]

Understand all that Richard, but you cannot deny that if tier 1 is promoted as the pinnacle of motorsport, then surely it is far better to maintain two or three well supported classes only and fill the remainder of the meeting from local competitors and decent grids. It doesn't have to be the same old, same old format at every round.

Concentrating on just two makes is a massive step backwards and as the majority of youngsters don't even support either of them, why are we surprised when they would rather watch smokey drifters using cars they identify with?

It is very telling when you go a to BBQ and the lady of the house says how much she enjoyed her first ever visit to a race track (Hampton Downs in this case), but was surprised that all the people were so friendly. When asked why she was surprised, she said that she expected a load of foul mouthed bearded bogans.

If that is the perception of a mature Kiwi lady, then we have more of an image problem than we realise - and not just amongst the youngsters.

To encourage youngsters, we have to do what was suggested at a recent meeting in Auckland, and get out to the high schools to sell the sport and also the opportunities for helpers. As was also stated, the schools recognise excellence on the rugby field, but those involved in any motorsport no matter how successful, rarely get a mention. Ditto the press coverage.

We all know that after soccer, worldwide, Motorsport is the most watched sport of all, but you wouldn't know it in NZ as the non specialist press can't see beyond rugby in the winter and cricket in the summer. Even the NZV8s get just about zero coverage and they certainly won't even get a mention on TV1!

[Racer Rog]

ScrewDriver, the lady must have lead a very sheltered life, thank your lucky stars she has never meet me, and the Lord only knows what she would have thought if she had visited a race meeting in the early 70's, meetings these days are rather tame compared with what went on way back then, on another subject, level entry single seaters, why do we still have an old nail of a engine, which some people have spent vast amounts of money on, I have been quoted figures of $20k, no wonder grids are empty, the SCCA has addressed this, and called this class Formula F, and they use two engines, the Kent, and the Honda Fit engine, and a package from Honda Proformace is about US$15k, or you can supply your own engine and get the add ons from them, yes its EFI, has a restrictor, but that the extent of any mods to the engine it self ( other than the dry sump, ECU and gearbox adaptor) you can not touch the engine parts, they must remain standard, so there is not the great expense of making a engine that was designed to give 68HP make 112HP, plus being a Honda, you don't need to pull it down every meeting, they are starting to get very good fields in this class, with a lot of old racers coming back and converting their Kent powered cars to Honda.
Roger

[jim short]

I dont disagree with any of the above but my main point is at the moment, when was the last time we had 3 young very very good young drivers competing ay Monaco Stanaway Evans Cassidy not since McLaren Hulme and Amon. The question is do you really need large feilds to produce top class drivers This harping about needing 15 cars at the end of the day proves nothing ,if I am wrong and if I think hard and long there was a time I was sadly mistaken,then again perhaps next year 3 of the BMW drivers will shine as they have large entrys. the future looks exciting manz ST ect roll on 2013

[jim short]

About two yrs. ago the idea was to follow the AUSSIES, There Form. Ford use a Focus unbreakable motor they buy and dyno batch of five or ten?when you need a motor it costs $12.000 and you buy it of the FFclub,but doing this will not keep engine builders happy in NZ

[Oldfart]

Jim, depends whether you are talking about finding world class drivers,entertainment package, or a place for enthusiasts to use their cars.
Currently it seems to me that Motorsport (the organisation) have failed to recognize that there are these distinctions, and more importantly failed to cater for them.
Some people on here have a particular bent, harping about one of these facets, when I thiink all need to be catered for.
In the "good old days" there was less distinction as the first of these was un-needed, as in most cases the "cream will rise to the top". Our best drivers went to grass track, hillclimbs, in fact anything going, that's where the McLaren, Hulme, Amon and countless others came from, including our world class mechanics.
Sailing did the same, when there were thousands of people sailing at club level this country produced many world championship level sailors, now most clubs struggle to hold a race day and there are few.

[richard lester]

Understand all that Richard, but you cannot deny that if tier 1 is promoted as the pinnacle of motorsport, then surely it is far better to maintain two or three well supported classes only and fill the remainder of the meeting from local competitors and decent grids. It doesn't have to be the same old, same old format at every round.

Concentrating on just two makes is a massive step backwards and as the majority of youngsters don't even support either of them, why are we surprised when they would rather watch smokey drifters using cars they identify with?

It is very telling when you go a to BBQ and the lady of the house says how much she enjoyed her first ever visit to a race track (Hampton Downs in this case), but was surprised that all the people were so friendly. When asked why she was surprised, she said that she expected a load of foul mouthed bearded bogans.

If that is the perception of a mature Kiwi lady, then we have more of an image problem than we realise - and not just amongst the youngsters.

To encourage youngsters, we have to do what was suggested at a recent meeting in Auckland, and get out to the high schools to sell the sport and also the opportunities for helpers. As was also stated, the schools recognise excellence on the rugby field, but those involved in any motorsport no matter how successful, rarely get a mention. Ditto the press coverage.

We all know that after soccer, worldwide, Motorsport is the most watched sport of all, but you wouldn't know it in NZ as the non specialist press can't see beyond rugby in the winter and cricket in the summer. Even the NZV8s get just about zero coverage and they certainly won't even get a mention on TV1!

hey screwdriver we are mixing issues with issues here.my post was about the lack of numbers and young guys in some of the tier 1 classes.it was not a rant against MNZ or what is best or most popular or what 'one' lady thinks of motorsports image.
I agree totally with you that Tier 1 needs a few core classes bulked up by a regular selection of the vast number of good register categories that we are fortunate to have.My understanding is that there are some significant program changes afoot for next season.
on press coverage--well nothing new here,i grew up with manfeild and my father battled constantly with the dominion as it was then and even our own manawatu evening standard for coverage--In short you make your own press coverage.the best example i could give would be my own son--google Jono lester sometime and see what you can achieve for yourself by using your smart's......

[Lurker]

--In short you make your own press coverage.the best example i could give would be my own son--google Jono lester sometime and see what you can achieve for yourself by using your smart's......

I did just that and well done, Richard, you have certainly used the web and social media to very good effect. All this exposure at zero cost other than an investment of time.

[Kiwiboss]

As a Classic/Historic guy only i couldn't agree more with Richard Lester, these are changing times with everything, let alone motorsport, a decision made either way can make or break you at the moment and i see MSNZ as no different, we all have great ideas on what they should do and not do etc, but no matter what it is not everyone will be pleased. My main interest "is not" Tier 1 so from an othersider with motorsport interest i view Tier1 as having its ups and down's just like the rest of the world. So in down times you only have 15 cars, wow thats still not bad(for NZ with 4.5 pop) as long as the playing feild is level and the racing good!! so the crowds are down? its just ecomonic times and too many other things to spend money on(i have that problem). You can not take it away from the V8 supercars, they are a travelling motorsport circus, i too thought the racing was great and so did many others i spoke to, and althought "I knew" the support class's didn't have a very level playing field most others were well entertained, maybe, just maybe MSNZ should look at some of the more semi professional class's like GT1 and Central at there events as crowd entertainment? until times come rite and other class' like FF/Porshe/Suzuki's numbers lift?

At the V8's i spoke with Andrew McKenzie about the new NZV8 and i believe by having the Coyote motor in the Falcon and the LS3 chevy in the Holden will have a better look than the Supertourers have with there all chevy engine.

As for organising our "Historic Muscle Cars" group i have learnt by looking overseas that i don't want TV or a high public profile, this is what ruins most low key historic and Class race groups, it attracts the wrong person! and ususaly a person that want's to bring a gun to a knife fight thats NOT in the spirit of classic racing, we don't want that. so Richard is correct in saying most Historic/Class racers are middle age and maybe sold up a bussiness, sitting back with a couple of mill in the bin and looking to have there last hurar!! HMC is not for these guys, i only want the fun racer that is attarcted to the Historic events like the Festival of Motor racing, guess time will tell if i got it rite?.

Dale M

[AMCO72]

Dale, I love your comment about taking a gun to a knife fight. I'm afraid we only bought a pea-shooter; and you dont want the retired entrepreneurial business man with a couple of million in the bin getting in on the act. I think most of these guys have 'better' things to spend their millions on, boats is the preferred thing. I certainly did not see any of that type at HMC, and not at the Roycroft festival either. Having said that, you still need a few bob to do what we do, and there are some pretty well-healed chaps in there. Fun racing or not, it can still run away with a lot of $$$$$$$$ for the two weekends at the HD Festival. As a poor pensioner, I am saving up for the Denny Hulme show in January, and hope that 'my man' will stump up a few dollars for repairs should they be necessary. As I have said before....'you got it rite'

[Grant Ellwood]

Jim, depends whether you are talking about finding world class drivers,entertainment package, or a place for enthusiasts to use their cars.
Currently it seems to me that Motorsport (the organisation) have failed to recognize that there are these distinctions, and more importantly failed to cater for them.
Some people on here have a particular bent, harping about one of these facets, when I thiink all need to be catered for.
In the "good old days" there was less distinction as the first of these was un-needed, as in most cases the "cream will rise to the top". Our best drivers went to grass track, hillclimbs, in fact anything going, that's where the McLaren, Hulme, Amon and countless others came from, including our world class mechanics.
Sailing did the same, when there were thousands of people sailing at club level this country produced many world championship level sailors, now most clubs struggle to hold a race day and there are few.

Some countries rank motorsport up there with soccer and other ball sports, not so NZ, no wonder there is little media coverage.
USA has reasonable coverage of Indy car, ALMS and Daytona Prototypes but nothing compares to NASCAR. A sport that is discussed just like rugby back home by most of the east coast population and a pretty good percentage of the rest of the country.
Not my favourite type of racing but it helps the other classes get coverage.
Cheers, Grant Ellwood

[screwdriver]

Love that bit about a couple of mil in the bank! The guys I race against are very down to earth (includes pensioners and even AMCO72 now and again!) and I am not sure what the average age is these days, but I know it has always been over 50. What we are finding now is that as guys retire, most do not have a vast nest egg and whereas when they were working, a major mechanical could be fixed within a couple of weeks or less, now they may be out for months or even a season.

Oldfart is correct in that we have to look at broad issues and the whole shooting match has to be a balance. It doesn't matter whether it is a tier 1 meeting or a classic/historic meeting.

That balance has to cater for the interests of a) drivers b) promoters c) officials d) spectators.

Having worn all 4 hats at various times, I know only too well you will always upset someone or disappoint someone.

Having been stuck on a marshals post for a NZ GP a fair few years ago, I can remember vividly the abject boredom of about 9 starters and being stuck on a post in the middle of the back straight at Pukekohe. Small grids are a curse as the promoters lose out, the spectators lose out and the officials/flaggies lose out. I am not sure that the drivers are too keen about the small grids either, so for me, one of the biggest priorities is that most grids are a fair bit fuller than what we have seen in recent years. Thank goodness Muscle cars and the GT1 were televised.

I think Jim #147 is totally underestimating the negative vibes that these small grids create. Sorry, but I wouldn't cross the road to watch a race meeting where most grids are under 15 and would consider that paying to watch is a rip off. Dale is correct, there are many other places competing for our hard earned dollar (or pension), so a promoter who tries to encourage one specific class as it grows is acceptable, but a meeting where the majority of classes are small is for club meetings where costs can be trimmed by eliminating such expenses as a pro commentator and PA system, advertising etc and the entry fees have to cover all expenditure. Televising is expensive and like Dale, I would hope that our committee wouldn't waste the money on it again as they did try it few years ago and it proved to be a total waste of money - though one of the sponsors thought it worth a gamble.

[Carlo]

couldn't disagree more Roger.
Tier 1 or level 1 motorsport has fallen foul of the economic climate and rising cost's in general for tommorrows talent to try and emerge.
The names Evans/hartley/Stanaway/Dixon have not progressed with mum and dads cash only,all were recognised early and picked up by consortiums or benefactors,but that doesnt happen to all obviously..
most grids are down for the youngsters--look at Karting apart from the big meetings,it starts from there.
a good percentage of parents just cant justify taking a punt and pouring there life into there kids right now when a bit of security is more important.
i have sweated blood with my son Jono to get backing for his racing and to do the TRS season this year we were virtually giving away sponsorship packages and doing all sorts of contra's to make it happen and we were fortunate to get a GT contract in japan out of doing the series(almost free)......
The sponsorship dollar is extremely hard to get now especially if you are unestablished--dont forget that the majority of classic/historic racing has competitors who by and large have reached the mid to later age bracket and are reaping the rewards of their years of toil in the business world.
i think its incorrect to generalise the current state of motorsport here the big grid classes as being the favourite of competitors and crowds alike.
Dont get me wrong the muscle cars etc etc are great to watch and sound fantastic but we also live in a modern world that keeps marching forward.if you guys have been around as long as some of you state you will well know that the top end of the sport goes in cycles of strength and this would be about number 5 or 6 in my lifetime and will come right again in the future as it always does......
Guys V8 SUPERCARS were the main attraction at hamilton-- every other class was a support class to make up an interesting overall program.
Just because one or two of you thought the nzv8's were rubbish doesnt mean everyone thought the same.I have spoken to many people who thought they were great....
remember that most of the new youngsters coming or- not coming into the sport come in because they want.. to and have either parental or commercial backing of some sort....most dont yet know or have not heard the various gripes and complaints about the governing body or event management etc etc that fill the forums, so i dont think MNZ can be soley blamed for struggling grids.
MNZ did years ago start letting individual series registers have more control of what and how they move forward which has resulted in some good and some bad areas of the sport..
i could go on and on but now need a jim beam.........

What he said

[richard lester]

What he said
;)

[Trevor Sheffield]

The extent of keyboard pounding on display is truly “awesome” but inconsequential.

I am taking a special interest because the current situation mirrors problems I was involved with over fifty years ago when secretary of the Northern Sports Car Club, i.e. the attitude and performance of the governing body and most important the situation effecting individual members who directly finance that governing body.

MototSport NZ confines itself to a single constitutional obligation and that is towards member clubs, not in any way motor sportsmen as individuals. All member clubs have equal voting rights regardless of the number of individuals they represent. The government of N.Z. motor sport therefore is and always has been, undemocratic.

A virtual anarchy holding a monopoly was created way back, whereby a group of not necessarily qualified bureaucrats, can and have over the years, had a ball playing at/with motor sport to the detriment of the majority involved. Change the situation or lump it. I could get no takers in respect of action over fifty years ago and sadly find this thread full of hot air.

Sincerely, Trevor.

[markec]

Perhaps part of the appeal of historic racing is that there are a lot of average drivers putting on a display of little competitions within each race that the paying public seem to enjoy so much, isn't this what used to happen with the Mini 7's and formula fords of times gone by.They weren't the fastest cars out there but they were the most interesting even though at the time people were putting them down.But they were talking about the many close ,incidents and overtaking maneuvers that went on.And then there was the Sports sedans/OSCA cars, but it was the noise and speed that appealed, the slower closer classes were the ones that were remembered.

[jim short]

Well the answere? is right in front but we dont want to see , we are getting bloody old.Fifty years ago we used to spend time at the races just walking in the car park drooling over the cars ,I also enjoyed hillclimbs inspite of having to walk and stand in fern ect!!and beleive it or not the feilds consisted of only one car,one of the worst hills was Peach rd. Ramarama up the top lived Noel Foster D and E Type parked in one shed a couple of Rileys one a Brooklands in another ,this was real steep and quite a few offs I remember a red TD over the side a large tee tree stopped him halfway down, he was followed by a young chap borrowed his dads new red zepher? {I was never a Ford fan} a mk 1 convertable went even further down the hill,The most exciting moment when over the pa system{went all the way up the hill?}was this v12 winding up getting closer and louder the crowd and there was crowds there finally this little Gogamoble appears at about 20mph ,I am pretty sure it had a copper exhaust,it may have been Bob? Merv Neil bobtail was ?/there plus the P3 Alfa

[screwdriver]

The extent of keyboard pounding on display is truly “awesome” but inconsequential.

I am taking a special interest because the current situation mirrors problems I was involved with over fifty years ago when secretary of the Northern Sports Car Club, i.e. the attitude and performance of the governing body and most important the situation effecting individual members who directly finance that governing body.

MototSport NZ confines itself to a single constitutional obligation and that is towards member clubs, not in any way motor sportsmen as individuals. All member clubs have equal voting rights regardless of the number of individuals they represent. The government of N.Z. motor sport therefore is and always has been, undemocratic.

A virtual anarchy holding a monopoly was created way back, whereby a group of not necessarily qualified bureaucrats, can and have over the years, had a ball playing at/with motor sport to the detriment of the majority involved. Change the situation or lump it. I could get no takers in respect of action over fifty years ago and sadly find this thread full of hot air.

Sincerely, Trevor.

Spot on. What happened 50 years ago at a hillclimb is a reminiscence, (sorry Jim, but we could all recite examples of what it was like 50 years ago or name cars and drivers) but it is the administration that is undemocratic and until it either represents the drivers or offers genuine leadership (or both) we are lumbered.

Like any sports association that is a membership of clubs, individual preferences are channelled through one vote and whilst it may be fine when it comes to some issues, it is most definitely not fine when it comes to the day to day issues affecting thousands of paid up members who are seemingly powerless.

[jim short]

Now dont be sorry I agree with most of the concerns raised on here,but it is a bit like NZ today ,I went to school in the 40s and every day we were taught our times table and NZ history some how the 2nd race are now the 1st race and having a ball with our money,so what show have we got of changing manz when they only are getting peanuts,this is of topic so I will not mention it ,I would love to hear more stories of the old days racing and hillclimbs,some how it makes me a happer chap ,I have been imformed a lot or most of you dont like the sh?T I put on, but I get a chuckle sometimes hours later and no rum needed!!

[Racer Rog]

Democracy comes in many forms, more people voted against the National party than voted for it, but its the single party that had the most MP's voted in, that how that works, and in looking at what positions where up for election at the AGM, and the to see who was standing against them, I did not notice any names from those who feel aggrieved that there is no body from the the Northern reaches of our fair land, so I take it that all those up there are happy with the way things are being run? its all very well to write in forums such as this and others about what is happening in motor sport, and the sort of questions and problems being asked here, are also being asked in other countries about their ASN's, we are not really much different, from the SCCA or the RACMSA. Like many here I have had a life long addiction to motor sport, and this is a very common disease amongst the grey beard generation, but it starts to tapper off in the next generation and the one after that as well, and you find thats its the children and grand children of those involved in the sport that have the interest, reasons for this are varied and many, but the biggest is choice, there is more sport that people can get actively involved in now, some of my sons friends will prefer to spend their time playing games on a computer, than go and watch motor sport, he does not get that choice and has to come with me, and so he will be involved, and you will find that its families that play in motor sport that stay in motor sport, to a certain extent, although, I do know of some who could not give a toss what their old man does with his old cars, not interested. So to get back on track, to try and fix any perceived or real ill's of motor sport, people need to get off their soap box's and get involved, there are things in the sport that piss me off, but I make sure I get in the face of people to try and do something about it, most people writing on this thread are members of clubs, make sure they know of your concerns, and if they are not addressing these, or don't have an answer, vote them out, even if you don't win at least you can then say well I have had my say, and it has been recorded, and sometimes at a later date you can also say "well I told you so"
See you all at the AGM
Roger

[Trevor Sheffield]

Exactly Roger,

You have amplified my previous closing paragraph. ---

A virtual anarchy holding a monopoly was created way back, whereby a group of not necessarily qualified bureaucrats, can and have over the years, had a ball playing at/with motor sport to the detriment of the majority involved. Change the situation or lump it. I could get no takers in respect of action over fifty years ago and sadly find this thread full of hot air.

What is required is a block vote organised amongst clubs having a like agenda, in advance of an AGM and this requires time. Maybe next year.

Cheers, Trevor.

[RogerH]

Democracy comes in many forms, more people voted against the National party than voted for it, but its the single party that had the most MP's voted in, that how that works, and in looking at what positions where up for election at the AGM, and the to see who was standing against them, I did not notice any names from those who feel aggrieved that there is no body from the the Northern reaches of our fair land, so I take it that all those up there are happy with the way things are being run? its all very well to write in forums such as this and others about what is happening in motor sport,
Roger

Your point is valid Roger in that someone who criticises from the sidelines is open to a challenge of credibility if they haven't been prepared to put themselves forward in an attempt to resolve matters from within.
Most of the issues that have been raised in this thread and on other forums are hardly new issues - they have been raised both formally and informally over a few years. Prior to last year's AGM most of these issues were formally raised with MSNZ Executive and in an attempt to resolve matters from within, Tony Roberts put himself up for Executive and I put myself up for the Historic Commission - unfortunately we were both unsuccessful and the reasons could be varied dependant on whether you are a conspiracy theorist or not:)
As a result of concluding that braking into the established MSNZ hierarchy was going to be very difficult and that there didn't seem to be any real commitment from MSNZ Executive to change the status quo, the process of working through the remit process from outside seemed to be a democratic alternative (however, I bet there is a good chance that there will be an attempt to close down the subject remits at the AGM).
Unfortunately, there are some elements within MSNZ who think that if you dare criticise the establishment, you must be in league with the devil. They don't seem to understand that in most cases the criticism is constructive comment from people who care about motorsport and want to improve it.

[Racer Rog]

RogerH, some times the devil maybe on your side in regards to some issues, and you know you do have some support for some of them
Roger

[RogerH]

RogerH, some times the devil maybe on your side in regards to some issues, and you know you do have some support for some of them
Roger

Thanks Roger - it is good to know there is some support out there, and yes you are right - there are only "some elements within MSNZ" who have contrary views (unfortunately the ones who might entertain some changes are not the majority or the power brokers).
As long as don't lose sight of the fact that we mustn't let all these politics stop us enjoying competing in our historic and classic cars.

[AMCO72]

Racer Rog and RogerH, talking of enjoying our historic and classic cars, I want you two guys to get the eligability for classic racing in the VCC extended to pre 1965, then I will be able to get my old MG1300 back on the track, just like the old days. I think all the extra cars involved would fit in well with oldfarts proposed class. It really bought it home to me, when at the Roycroft Trophy I was able to do a few laps in the old girl with my 92 year old passenger from the rest home. I might end up in a rest-home myself one day and be riding around with some 'wet behind the ears' classic race car driver, and I would sooner be driving myself!!! And just a question.....is a medical required for racing with the VCC.

[Racer Rog]

It will be a cold day in hell, when the VCC gets to extend out to 1965, down here they can not police their own current fleet, with out going to 1965, I do understand that the Roycroft meeting where they ran, was well run and a credit to the VCC, the North Islanders do get some things right, as for oldfarts racing, no such thing, I have never seen an old fart racing yet, seen zimmer frames beside a couple of race cars, but when watching them on the track, it would appear that they were just sandbaging!
Roger

[GeebeeNZ]

For the majority of us who werent there can anyone give us a report on the remits from yesterdays Motorsport Annual General Council Meeting

[markec]

With attitudes like Racer Rog has,its no wonder Motorsport in NZ is in the quagmire it now is. Absolutely no tolerance to another body having any control over what the members of that body wish to do or the direction that they wish to take. When the classic movement started to take off back in the 90's, there were cars appearing that had been left in sheds for years, after a few meetings the numbers of the original competitors started to dwindle with these cars going back into their sheds, officialdom started making things too hard.Every time there has been a successful form of competition that brings back enthusiasts to the sport officialdom gets in the way. The interesting aspect of this scenario is that most of the officialdom were never competitors.

[RogerH]

There has been a similar request on another forum:

What I am asking is that those who are able to attend, spend a couple of minutes to pass on some info as to what went on, as most minutes manage to be less than a comprehensive record. Items may well be passed, but we often don't hear how close a vote was or both sides of the debate, as many votes are far from unanimous.

In response I posted the following which may help :

"I don't know what the problem is in communicating what happened at the MSNZ Conference - it wasn't secret. In fact one of the issues that was discussed was the need to use more social media as the means for communicating with competitors and I suppose these forums are part of the social media as it appears a significant number of competitors frequent these forums.

The workshops this year were run in a manner that they did not conflict with other workshops so there was the ability to attend any workshop that was relevant. As a result there was a huge increase of attendance at the finance workshop which perhaps indicates people are concerned about the costs and financial performance of MSNZ and it's majority owned promotional company TMC (recently rebranded MPS). In fact, there was a motion passed at Council that in future the financial workshop meeting notes be minuted to ensure the issues raised were formally recorded.

At Council, there was strong questioning of the CEO of TMC and it was clear there were two camps - one which was dissatisfied with TMC and the other which considered the criticism was just "bagging". The outcome was that TMC was to be reviewed again in a years time in order for the new directors to have a chance to turn things around.

The remits regarding MSNZ exiting TMC, proxy voting and representation were all defeated - primarily as the close off date for remits meant that any Constitutional remit was outside the required notice time limit and was therefore invalid.

The big issue was the remit and discussion on MSNZ governance. This remit called for an independent panel to review the governance of MSNZ to ensure it is meeting the needs of the sport. The remit noted that there had been significant changes in a number of NZ sporting bodies in recent years with a swing towards governance by an appointed board. This remit was passed by what appeared to be a significant majority.

I have tried to give a balanced view of what happened but these forums provide the opportunity for anyone to have input if they have a different perspective."

[Kiwiboss]

I was there for the first time as an observer for HRC, most of the main Teir 1 motorsport questioning was new to me though i did understand what was going on, it seem to be a big game of chess!! i guess!!

Offcourse my main interest is in the Historic and Classic commission which i got to sit in on their friday workshop and as they all knew about the implementing of HMC under myself, Steve and Tony i was asked many questions about this, been alighthened to MSNZ T&C does rules help, and also some discussion about T&C and COD's. It seems to me the H&C part of motorsport is the least of MSNZ's worries!! but never lest i have been invided to there next workshop in a months time and will see how it goes from there.

I also spoke with several South Island classic clubs and event organisers and it seems they have quite some interest in alighning the classic Saloon groups, all positive i thought.

Dale M

[Russ Cunningham]

With attitudes like Racer Rog has,its no wonder Motorsport in NZ is in the quagmire it now is. Absolutely no tolerance to another body having any control over what the members of that body wish to do or the direction that they wish to take. When the classic movement started to take off back in the 90's, there were cars appearing that had been left in sheds for years, after a few meetings the numbers of the original competitors started to dwindle with these cars going back into their sheds, officialdom started making things too hard.Every time there has been a successful form of competition that brings back enthusiasts to the sport officialdom gets in the way. The interesting aspect of this scenario is that most of the officialdom were never competitors.

Your last sentence sums things up nicely! Try racing, Kerry Cooper! I hope you enjoy the red tape and bullshit put in your way. Don't worry about the costs though, we'll pay those.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Your last sentence sums things up nicely! Try racing, Kerry Cooper! I hope you enjoy the red tape and bullshit put in your way. Don't worry about the costs though, we'll pay those.

Here it is again ----- "The interesting aspect of this scenario is that most of the officialdom were never competitors."

I go way back and it has always been the same. Self centered decisions made by the power hungry and ego driven with no experience of reality. Only capable of thumping a gavel rather than a spanner, and unable to steer anything much less an organisation along the lines required by competitors..

[crunch]

Here it is again ----- "The interesting aspect of this scenario is that most of the officialdom were never competitors."

I go way back and it has always been the same. Self centered decisions made by the power hungry and ego driven with no experience of reality. Only capable of thumping a gavel rather than a spanner, and unable to steer anything much less an organisation along the lines required by competitors..

OK, in answer to the above broad, generalised statement that I consider inaccurate.
I have and still compete at a NZ Championship level as well as international. Have done for 32 years.

The other MSNZ Vice-President current competes at a National level (circuit) and has done in that class for years.

The current MSNZ President spent years farting around in Formula Vee.

A previous MSNZ Vice-President (Rob Lester) was a competitor in Formula Vee and Formula Ford (for many years), Saloon Endurance and even a couple of rallies.

[RogerH]

OK, in answer to the above broad, generalised statement that I consider inaccurate.
I have and still compete at a NZ Championship level as well as international. Have done for 32 years.

The other MSNZ Vice-President current competes at a National level (circuit) and has done in that class for years.

The current MSNZ President spent years farting around in Formula Vee.

A previous MSNZ Vice-President (Rob Lester) was a competitor in Formula Vee and Formula Ford (for many years), Saloon Endurance and even a couple of rallies.

Crunch, In your capacity as MSNZ Vice-President representing Historic and Classic, maybe you could have a look at the David Silcock Jaguars thread on this forum and read posts #206 to #217. It seems that the MSNZ "system" is resulting in a fantastic historic car being kept off the track - hopefully you can do something. Cheers Roger.

[crunch]

Crunch, In your capacity as MSNZ Vice-President representing Historic and Classic, maybe you could have a look at the David Silcock Jaguars thread on this forum and read posts #206 to #217. It seems that the MSNZ "system" is resulting in a fantastic historic car being kept off the track - hopefully you can do something. Cheers Roger.

Yep, will do.
I have just got home from AGCM this afternoon and am off tomorrow afternoon to the Otago Rally; so wont be able to promise anything until after weekend coming

[Carlo]

I am sure David will correct me if I am wrong but from what I understand from my readings here is that he started the project a few years ago and during that time built the roll cage to the then current specification. By the time that the car was completed time had passed and the requirements had changed to that which is the current FIA specification relating to the diameter of the main roll cage hoop and because of that, his cage was no longer eligble.

I got caught out the other way in that I built my replica RS2000 rally car to the then current specification only to find out that it had changed internationally to the new specification and my thoughts of taking the car overseas to compete have now been dashed as I am not going to cut half the car apart so as to make the changes required to fit in the larger diameter tubing

For sure It would have been nice to know that there was a change in the wind when I could have done something about it but I guess we can not all be mind readers and I suspect that the same could be said for those in the MSNZ office

[Carlo]

OK, in answer to the above broad, generalised statement that I consider inaccurate.
I have and still compete at a NZ Championship level as well as international. Have done for 32 years.

The other MSNZ Vice-President current competes at a National level (circuit) and has done in that class for years.

The current MSNZ President spent years farting around in Formula Vee.

A previous MSNZ Vice-President (Rob Lester) was a competitor in Formula Vee and Formula Ford (for many years), Saloon Endurance and even a couple of rallies.

The advisory commissions are stacked with current & former competitors across all aspects of the sport. The fact that many of them also organise events is just a by-product of their enthusiasm for the sport

[Dave Silcock]

I am sure David will correct me if I am wrong but from what I understand from my readings here is that he started the project a few years ago and during that time built the roll cage to the then current specification. By the time that the car was completed time had passed and the requirements had changed to that which is the current FIA specification relating to the diameter of the main roll cage hoop and because of that, his cage was no longer eligble.

I got caught out the other way in that I built my replica RS2000 rally car to the then current specification only to find out that it had changed internationally to the new specification and my thoughts of taking the car overseas to compete have now been dashed as I am not going to cut half the car apart so as to make the changes required to fit in the larger diameter tubing

For sure It would have been nice to know that there was a change in the wind when I could have done something about it but I guess we can not all be mind readers and I suspect that the same could be said for those in the MSNZ office

It is not the diameter of the tubing but an increase of .4mm in wall thickness,and that is allowable in mild steel. not taking into consideration the greatly increased stiffness of chrome moly. Your claim it is an FIA requirement does not ring true as various people on this forum have had to have FIA approved cars, with the ink hardly dry turned down by MSNZ. The fact of the matter is it nothing to do with safety and all to do about procedure. I am not going to buy into this stupidity and if the cage is not approved as it is I will take no further part in NZ motor sport.

[richard lester]

It is not the diameter of the tubing but an increase of .4mm in wall thickness,and that is allowable in mild steel. not taking into consideration the greatly increased stiffness of chrome moly. Your claim it is an FIA requirement does not ring true as various people on this forum have had to have FIA approved cars, with the ink hardly dry turned down by MSNZ. The fact of the matter is it nothing to do with safety and all to do about procedure. I am not going to buy into this stupidity and if the cage is not approved as it is I will take no further part in NZ motor sport.
reminds me of a few years back when the aussie v8 utes first turned up at manfeild for the tasman clash and MNZ wouldnt allow the australian homologated cages in the falcons ?? and some intense changes were made to the cars to get the event happening......ive never really been able to get my head around that one....

[Carlo]

Thanks for clearing that up David, as I said I got caught out with the changes that occured just after I built mine that they would have been nice to have been avoided

[rf84]

The AGCM was my first. A couple of things quickly became apparent:-
1 A lot of people think of car racing as a homogeneous group. It isn't. There are a lot of quite disparate groups ranging from sporting trials to truck racing. I have not yet decided if MSNZ is a bunch of masochists or a bunch of megalomaniacs. They seem to see it as their duty or right to administer anything with 4 wheels and a motor. In doing so they are making 'a rod for their own backs'.
2 No system is perfect. Another writer has alluded to the fact that we have a National government yet they did not get a majoity of the votes. Remember democracy could be 2 foxes and 1 chicken in the kitchen voting for who they are going to eat for dinner! From what I saw of the AGCM it is not a bad system.
3 A lot of the benefits to be gain

[screwdriver]

Wall thickness etc on roll cages on an existing car should never have been a major issue, as this is classic case of the law of diminishing returns.
I have been a spectator since the early 1950's, a competitor since 1970 and have lost count of the number of racing miles I have witnessed on everything from grasstrack to speedway, F1 to truck racing. In all that time, I don't think I have ever been at a meeting where there was a fatality and from memory, I can recall just three where there was any serious injury and very few where there was any minor injury. One of those was broken arm caused when the fire extinguisher came adrift! Ironic really.

I would be far more concerned at the paucity of fire extinguishers at marshals posts, given that 1 extinguisher is next to useless in a fire and the fact that the distance between posts is often quite long. Even a triple layer suit will not save you if the fire isn't extinguished within 30 seconds, meanwhile, we are fluffing around with roll bar thickness, when fire is the single greatest enemy to driver safety.

Motorsport (personal) safety took huge leaps forwards with the following innovations:
1) Hard hats/helmets
2) Fire resistant suits
3) Seat belts
4) Roll over bars
5) Roll cages.

The only item that has been introduced in recent years is a head and neck restraint. Improvements to any of those items in terms of specifications has such a tiny overall effect, it is immeasurable, so excluding a car with an older roll cage is petty in the extreme.

Most of us are not running F1 cars at F1 speeds and for those who only race less than 10 times a year, some of these so called safety improvements are no more than 'personal choice.'

You can still legally race an unmodified car in NZ with a 15 year old 2" lap/diagonal belt, yet up until recently a six year old 3"race harness could be deemed scrap, even it it had never even been used.

We need to get away from the US lawyer ambulance chasing mindset and apply reality. To exclude any Dave Silcock produced vehicle on a technicality, when quite clearly, the man is a proven engineer, is farcical.

Most updates to the rule book could surely wait until the end of the season, as bulletins every couple of weeks merely show that something hasn't been thought out properly in the first place. Building a race car can take years and I have a car that had its cage fitted years ago, to the then current regulations, but had it photographed and noted by MSNZ at the time. If it fails to be accepted now the car is almost ready, I'll simply remove it altogether, as the car will still be legal without it - and that is a crazy situation.

[Oldfart]

I wonder (as a result of something I was told) if the change to rollcage steel spec was brought about as a result of a worn out die at the steel works.
Of course the change was signalled, but only if you had a competition licence, and had signed up to the myriad of technicalities to be sent you by email, and then took the time to wade through them all. Many have been changes to the fines and other stuff that just overwhelm you, so the real issues slip by un-noticed.

[Dave Silcock]

Thanks for your support Old Fart, if you are right about the dies then as my steel was 08, and probably a lot earlier stock, mine should be OK don't you think?

[Oldfart]

Thanks for your support Old Fart, if you are right about the dies then as my steel was 08, and probably a lot earlier stock, mine should be OK don't you think?

I would have thought so! But then as one of those caught out by an FIA homologated cage (4 months old and OMP) not being deemed "compliant" I might be seen to have an axe to grind! FWIW every tube in the OMP cage was larger, and greater wall thickness than required, but the main issue was an extra curve in the front hoop (near the A pillar)

[Chris Read]

Saw this in a MSNZ conference report by Chris Watson of HRC.
Just thought it should be recorded somewhere in the discussion.

"Of the over 200 car clubs in the Auckland area, only 23 are affiliated to Motor Sport NZ, so of the approximately 97 clubs affiliated to Motor Sport NZ, our affiliated Auckland Clubs are very much in the minority. It is also interesting to note that HRC has recorded 2021 individual drivers competing at HRC meetings and there are only 4942 licence holders in New Zealand. Add in the drivers who compete at other Auckland events, like NZIGP meetings and the Auckland car clubs are providing half the competitors but have only 23% of the voting power. This is probably the main reason for the dissatisfaction with Motor Sport NZ from many Auckland competitors and clubs." Chris Read - Arrowtown

[RogerH]

Saw this in a MSNZ conference report by Chris Watson of HRC.
Just thought it should be recorded somewhere in the discussion.

"Of the over 200 car clubs in the Auckland area, only 23 are affiliated to Motor Sport NZ, so of the approximately 97 clubs affiliated to Motor Sport NZ, our affiliated Auckland Clubs are very much in the minority. It is also interesting to note that HRC has recorded 2021 individual drivers competing at HRC meetings and there are only 4942 licence holders in New Zealand. Add in the drivers who compete at other Auckland events, like NZIGP meetings and the Auckland car clubs are providing half the competitors but have only 23% of the voting power. This is probably the main reason for the dissatisfaction with Motor Sport NZ from many Auckland competitors and clubs." Chris Read - Arrowtown

I think Chris Watson has expressed the sentiment of a number of Auckland clubs and competitors - and backed it up with some hard figures. The situation is exacerbated by there not being a representative on the MSNZ Executive from north of the Bombay Hills for around 10 years. In addition (and of perhaps more relevance to this forum), there has not been a representative on the MSNZ Executive from the Historic and Classic fraternity for many years.

[Racer Rog]

I think Chris numbers are somewhat astray, but as I have said before, put the people up to stand in a election, there were positions available as you know Roger, but there was a lack of people from the Auckland area who could have or would have etc put their names forward, as you know a support a few of the things that have been noted here, and we agree that the Governance of MotorSport NZ does need a review, but on wheather there is enough people from Auckland on the exc of the motor sport, that is another matter altogether, this and extending the date that the VCC can run vehicles, those that went to the H & C commission meetings, the informal one and the formal one will understand why this will not happen, a solution to this was agreed with the VCC at a meeting in Christchurch and I was there to hear the summary of the points of agreement, but within 24 hours, the VCC went against it, and decided not to honour it. While the VCC meeting that has just been held, The Roycroft meeting was very well run and I am told a real pleasure to watch, the same can not be said of VCC meetings in the South Island, where vehicles fail to comply with their own rules, and in light of a incident at a recent race meeting, we are lucky that we are facing Queenstown type case, and for those that think that could never happen, pull your heads out of the sand, if you don't follow the rules set out on your paper, the Police will nail you to a cross, as happened in that case, which most people are aware of. These days there is no accidents, some one must to blame, I don't agree with this myself, I think thing have gotten to PC, but this is the world we are living in now.
Roger

[Oldfart]

In reply to Racer Rog, I as a person attending the Roycroft (and having problems with my car) spent a huge amount of time discussing the "cut off" with VCC speed stewards (note the plural). I was informed that "with the agreement of both Motorsport and VCC speed stewards of a particular meeting cars of later date can be allowed to run with VCC on a case by case, and meeting by meeting basis". Another person in the same room had not asked for this, and was not allowed to run, although the car would have been asllowed to run, without question according to those present. I specifically asked about, by name, the cars involved in the recent south island events, and was told that both stewards (Motorsport and VCC) had agreed to them running. I asked about the incident, I was told that it was down to overdriving, and a desire to pass in stupid places. According to that information, you can hardly lay blame on the agreement over cut off date!
If you look at the state of tyres etc in the published photos you could argue that the entrant/driver of one of the cars signed a declaration in a manner that would be questionable, and that audits(not scrutineering) also failed to pick this up!
As I read the numbers quoted by Chris Read, these are numbers from Motorsport, as he quoted their own material, so hard to say "his numbers are somewhat astray"!

[Oldfart]

Interesting, I think, that Roger has commented that the Roycroft meeting was well run, but that VCC meetings in the South Island cannot be said the same of.
For absolute certain the Roycroft is a pure VCC run meeting, please correct me but most, if not all, of the SI race meetings have been combined with MSNZ?
Nuff said?

[screwdriver]

Last year's Roycroft might well have been a combined permit one, but I am not sure about this year's.

VCC Waitmata's committee appear to be fairly new to circuit race meeting organisation, and without the Hampton Downs permanent staff stepping in at the 11th hour, I doubt the meetings would have been allowed to start, either last year or this year. My involvement doubled, trying also to carry out a regular role that had been overlooked!
They are learning fast and one can only hope that the meeting will continue to grow, as it really is a joy to be there.
It would be nice to have a grid of VCC cars at a few more classic (MSNZ) north island meetings, as they represent tremendous variety and are on occasions, very dramatic.

A later cut off date could entice more saloons out to play, as they were conspicuous by their absence and there is only one pre 1960 saloon that regularly appears at local MSNZ events - or did.

[RogerH]

A couple of points :

I understand that the numbers quoted in Chris Read's post (from the HRC newsletter) are pretty accurate and indicative of the situation. The only question is that the 2021 individual drivers running at the HRC events (primarily at HD but also at Pukekohe) may not be all from Auckland - however I think the vast majority of them would be Auckland based.

With my mate Racer Rog - the "why don't you put your name forward" is a hardy annual response to criticism of the MSNZ structure. From my experience with MSNZ Conference there is a degree of parochial voting and with Auckland clubs having around a quarter of the votes it is pretty hard to get onto the MSNZ Executive. Even if you do get on you are just one of six and getting any traction for change is nigh well impossible. Last year Auckland candidates stood for the Executive and the Historic Commission and didn't even get close to getting elected. Also, its not whether there are "enough" Aucklanders on the Executive - there aren't any and it has been that way for over 10 years. I wonder what the reaction would have been if, for whatever reason, there had ben no Executive member from the Mainland for ten years.

I was fortunate to be able to run at both the South Island VCC events (at Ruapuna and Teretonga) and at the Roycroft meeting at Hampton Downs. I don't think the issue is how well the meetings were run but what sort of cars ran under the VCC banner at each of the meetings. Firstly, the Roycroft meeting was pure VCC while the South Island ones were VCC included as part of a general meeting. The issue that I noticed was that the Roycroft cars seemed true to the VCC spirit in the way they were configured and presented. With the South Island VCC grids there were a number of cars that would never have had a look in at being accepted at the Roycroft meeting primarily due to "modern" improvements. There seems to be a different view between the two groups as to what constitutes a complying VCC car.

[Racer Rog]

Whoa!!! you guys don't sleep! well there are lies, damm lies and then there are statistics, the numbers will only mean something if you can say where the people entered come from and how many events are entered and then I think you may be surprised, but in saying that, overall I think about 45% of licence holders are active in H & C racing, but as I have said before democracy comes in many forms and you can only please some of the people some of the time.there will always be some one pissed off that's a fact of life.You are right about how the VCC run their meetings north and south, they are not on the same page, both cars involved in the incedent would not comply, in fact one car wasn't allowed to compete in VCC North Island events.
The Pre 1960 rule is a international one is is in line with FIA policy which the VCC is a party to, but as I said a deal was done that would allow members of the VCC to race in the correct class with the need to belong to a MotorSport NZ club, they decided not to honour that agreement for reasons unknown.
MotorSport NZ has many faults, but has many good points as well, and one of these is the training that it puts its officials through, and has procedures to follow, and this ongoing training cost a lot of money, this is one of the reasons why our licences cost what they do, and really the VCC ride on the coat tails of all that training that we are paying for, in fact the VCC is represented on the FIA by MotorSport NZ, and their President has said that that motor sport represents only a small fraction of what they do so they are not that interested, they do have a very nice magazine, that I buy all of the time so that's a plus from me, but I don't think they understand what can happen when it all goes pear shaped, and what costs are involved and the disputation of peoples lives, the lengths that the Police will go to, when it does go all wrong, the days of racing in a paddock, I'm afraid are long gone, without a written up procedure, and adherence to that procedure.
Roger

[Racer Rog]

Whoa!!! you guys don't sleep! well there are lies, damm lies and then there are statistics, the numbers will only mean something if you can say where the people entered come from and how many events are entered and then I think you may be surprised, but in saying that, overall I think about 45% of licence holders are active in H & C racing, but as I have said before democracy comes in many forms and you can only please some of the people some of the time.there will always be some one pissed off that's a fact of life.You are right about how the VCC run their meetings north and south, they are not on the same page, both cars involved in the incedent would not comply, in fact one car wasn't allowed to compete in VCC North Island events.
The Pre 1960 rule is a international one is is in line with FIA policy which the VCC is a party to, but as I said a deal was done that would allow members of the VCC to race in the correct class without the need to belong to a MotorSport NZ club, they decided not to honour that agreement for reasons unknown.
MotorSport NZ has many faults, but has many good points as well, and one of these is the training that it puts its officials through, and has procedures to follow, and this ongoing training cost a lot of money, this is one of the reasons why our licences cost what they do, and really the VCC ride on the coat tails of all that training that we are paying for, in fact the VCC is represented on the FIA by MotorSport NZ, and their President has said that that motor sport represents only a small fraction of what they do so they are not that interested, they do have a very nice magazine, that I buy all of the time so that's a plus from me, but I don't think they understand what can happen when it all goes pear shaped, and what costs are involved and the disputation of peoples lives, the lengths that the Police will go to, when it does go all wrong, the days of racing in a paddock, I'm afraid are long gone, without a written up procedure, and adherence to that procedure.
Roger

[Racer Rog]

Sorry failed to proof read, left out one very important word, " without"

[AMCO72]

Some extraordinary revelations on this thread regarding the VCC, and it's ability or otherwise of organizing a race meeting. To a casual observer, me, the Roycroft meeting seemed to run extremely well, and yet we are hearing that all was not what it seemed behind closed doors. The comment was made that they, Waitemata branch, are new to motorsport and that they have a lot to learn, and but for some timely intervention, these meetings might not have taken place. Amazing! Also that the VCC are not experienced in speed events that only form a very small part of what the VCC is all about. Ok, but there are some very experienced VCC members involved in motorsport, and they should be able to steer people in the right direction.

It surprises me that the South Island clubs are even more inept at running these events, or is it that they are a bit more relaxed as to what participates. When grids are small there is a tendancy for promoters to allow stuff to race that perhaps shouldn't, and the recent example of an 800 hp Porsche racing in the same class as Bernie Hines is ridiculous. Actually I dont know what satisfaction the Porsche driver got from racing with an old Mini, bugger-all I would have said. When we did the South Island tour last year, we were very surprised at the machinery that was in our 'class' but as the grids were so small, the organisers lumped us all together. Nothing worse than a grid of ten cars. I actually didn't care, as I raced with stuff I wouldn't normally, but certainly not an 800 hp Porsche!!!

Oldfart has been doing his best to get some enthusiasm for some pre 60 saloons, which as someone said are notable by their absence, but he has also said that he does not want to see Anglias and Minis in this class, because in his words, they would clean up. He is probably right, as it is very easy to put 'modern' stuff into both of these cars without in any way altering their looks. I would love to get the MG 1300 back on the track, but it doesn't look as though it's going to happen. I could theoretically stuff a very potent engine in the car, adjust the suspension a bit, and have a mighty quick machine.....we have the technology, but it's not going to happen. Same with an Anglia.

Would be nice to see a grid of proper VCC cars, that are in the spirit of the VCC, as was the entry at the Roycroft meeting, at a regular MSNZ meeting, but would the VCC cars then have to comply with MSNZ rules rather than the VCC rules, especially as regards seatbelts and roll-frames. I dont know, it all seems a balls-up to me, and there are a lot of disaffected members throughout the country that have just said to themselves.....stuff it, I'm not going there, and park their cars up, where someone in the future is going to find them tucked away in a shed and claim them as 'barn-finds'.

[Racer Rog]

AMCO72, I think that you are right, both Roger H and myself, along with others would like to see this sorted, and I think the ball lies with the VCC, but as some people would say, I'm biased, but not in the way a lot would think, a true VCC field is what I'm interested to see, if they wish to race other cars, there are fields out there to cater for them.
As a committee member for the ENZED Historic and Classic meeting, we try to do the best we can, when placing cars in grids, and we do take into account the driver, car and speed, and so try and put like with like, eg Formula Juniors with NZGP cars, and that went very well, unforgettably the one star driver for Formula Junior was unable to attend, but Nigel Russell said it was he would beat him, but Roger H has promised a return match!, For our meeting next year, it is planed to have between 20 and 30 formula Juniors on the grid, and depending on the final numbers, the same grid match with the NZGP cars will happen, but if we get enough of them they will have their own grid, we also have invited the Porsche Club for a stand alone grid, and Dale is trying to get his guys down as well, the meeting we put on at Levels is a top meeting, and we endeavour to place a great social emphases on it with the cars as the stars, and I think we get about 85% of it right, and the meaning to that is there is no perfect meeting, but we are aiming for it, but most go away with a smile on their faces.
Roger

[jim short]

Good to see common sense at last

[RogerH]

The VCC / MSNZ matter is a bit of a minefield but as Racer Rog has pointed out, it is being slowly sorted. In a pure form the VCC field should stop at 1960 cars (or continuation cars the same as a 1960 model) - after that, the MSNZ structure takes over even though the MSNZ Appendix K rules cater for cars back to those built before 1930.
I think MSNZ has enough trouble getting it's mind around the particular requirements for 1960 cars (race gas issue, roll bar issue etc) without trying to cope with earlier cars. On this basis the VCC is a better structure to deal with these earlier cars. However, it is pretty evident that the VCC clubs do not have the experience of running circuit meetings and this is an area that needs improvement, if only for their own protection. At a recent unnamed VCC event (not Roycroft) I had my log book signed off for a scrutineering audit without anyone setting eyes on my car!
The mixed grid at the southern tracks earlier this year did cause a few problems and eventuated in a complaint to the Clerk of the Course on safety grounds. To their credit it was resolved but grids of more like cars usually get around these issues. We are in contact with Formula Junior drivers in the UK, Europe and Australia and it looks reasonably positive that there will be a large contingent coming out here over January / February 2013. Hopefully we have enough cars to have our own grid. Interestingly, when the Juniors race at the Denny Hulme Festival in January 2013 it will be under MSNZ jurisdiction but when we subsequently go south with the same cars we will be racing under VCC jurisdiction.

[Oldfart]

It seems to me that there a few "seeds of confusion".

RacerRog has said "a deal was done that would allow members of the VCC to race in the correct class with the need to belong to a MotorSport NZ club, they decided not to honour that agreement for reasons unknown". Now I may be prepared to try to understand this, but I think a few more details are needed. If there were members of VCC who went and raced in other meetings in violation of this, surely it was the officials of that meeting who allowed them to do so, so the officials should have insisted on the appropriate membership, and of course this implies licences.
If they did not have the right licences it is even worse. And of course you can not have either a VCC competiton licence, nor an MSNZ one without being a member of an affiliated club.
In regards "my proposed class" I am happy to restate, all cars will be only allowed to compete as long as they have a VIC (vehicle Identity Card) issued by the VCC which shows a pre Dec 31 1960 date. I have been considering actually moving this date older, ie (or eg) pre 1959 as it is pointed out in the VCC constitution that you can not prevent any member competing as long as they have an appropriate dating on their vehicle, so having a rule banning 105/109e and minis would violate this constitutional right.
I do have to say that if some of my money for my National MSNZ licence is used for training, for example flag marshals provided at HD Roycroft meeting, the training needs re-visiting. I am not prepared to publically debate this issue, but would accept emails via the PM system.
In regard the true VCC cars, I cannot but agree with Racer Rog, with the small proviso that there are some cars which do not have anywhere else to run. My own Buckler, now being taken back to pre 60 format being an example, and there are a fair few others.
The numbers of both car clubs and members of those clubs who do not belong to MSNZ is a wonderful red herring. There are a huge number of "Car Clubs", most based in Auckland, who have zero interest in Motorsport, eg's which spring to mind are Peugeot, MicroCar, etc. They have no need to belong, and the cost would have a significant negative impact on them for no benefit whatever. Our beloved govt calls this cost/ benefit ratio I believe.
I guees that it is great that we have a forum to debate this, we just all need to remember why we do this!

[Racer Rog]

Oldfart, I made a mistake when I typed that out, what I meant to say, was, "with out belonging to a MotorSport NZ club" my mind was racing away from my fingers at that point, but the short and sweet answer to that was, the VCC circuit competitors would get a MotorSport NZ licence, ( Level Playing Field in terms of cost) and MotorSport NZ would make a couple of changes to their log books and both log books would be recognized by the auditors and the meeting and races would be run by MotorSport CoC etc, thus ensuring the level of protection needed in case of major accidents. What this meant was the present age barrier to competition, post 1960, for the VCC, was then negated, as vehicles would then be placed in the appropriate class, problems solved, as I think there would only be about 20 to 30 VCC competitors that don't already hold MotorSport NZ licences I personally did not see a big deal in all this, but they changed their minds, and pissed a few off in MotorSport NZ for their troubles, and soured the relationship they once enjoyed.
Roger H, you will under MSNZ governance at the ENZED Classic, the only field that will run under VCC will be there mixed bag field if they run at all, we are trying to encourage some of the true VCC cars out, but who knows?
I hope that throws a bit of light on the subject for people, there was a couple of other things but really of a minor nature, and made no difference either way. Any Questions?
Roger

[Oldfart]

It would seem that there are always some individuals who will sour things for the majority, and this seems a good example.
I think you would be very wrong in your 20 to 30, my suspicion is closer to 10 times that number. We move in different circles!
VCC certainly recognizes the MSNZ licence and logbook, reciprocal does not appear to be the case.
If it did "piss off a few in MSNZ"....

[RogerH]

I would think that at the Roycroft meeting about 80% of the competitors didn't have MSNZ licences, so I tend to agree with Oldfart that the number is much greater than 20 to 30.
Does the VCC actually issue a log book? If not, how do they record scrutineering and car audits?

[Racer Rog]

You could be right, its hard to know, what I do know is that a few let their MSNZ licences go when they learned that the vCC would accept their vehicles and that a licence cost $35 for 5 years or something along those lines, but that only applied to circuit racing, not trials or hill climbs, which would appear that they have been the traditional facets of VCC competition as I understand it, but I am only speaking with knowledge of the South Island, and the VCC does not recognize a MSNZ licence down here , but most Auditors will use their log books.in fact I believe that a vehicle should only have one log book this is just from a safety angle, and personally I don't care who's it is, as long as there is a record of competitive events the vehicle has been entered in and any faults that may have been found corrected etc but that was part of the deal that was rejected, I did thnk it was a win win for all concerned, most other countries have the same licence for competion, in the UK the RACMSA handles all those.
Roger

[Oldfart]

Yes to both Rogers, VCC do issue log books after the issue of a VIC. The VCC licence applies to VCC Speed events. If they are run by a MSNZ club solely, obviously the appropriate MSNZ licence is needed. If it is a combined event then the licence can be for the event (or part of) you entered. Roger H like the Taupo December meeting, you used your MSNZ, I used my VCC.
Log book, total agreement that should be only one for a particular vehicle.

[markec]

Apparently Brian Lawrence has been appointed by Motorsport New Zealand to sort out the classes and to undertake the promotional duties within the The MSNZ Promotional Company. Wasn't he one those who stuffed it up originally and was the reason MSNZ now are the owners of what to all intents and purposes is an illegal organization.

[RogerH]

Apparently Brian Lawrence has been appointed by Motorsport New Zealand to sort out the classes and to undertake the promotional duties within the The MSNZ Promotional Company. Wasn't he one those who stuffed it up originally and was the reason MSNZ now are the owners of what to all intents and purposes is an illegal organization.

I thought that Brian Lawrence had been employed by MSP (MotorSport Promotions Limited - the old re-named TMC). However on reading the press release on the MSP web site I'm not too sure :

Marketing Management – Brian Lawrence
After 11 years in Australia Brian returns to Auckland as Marketing Manager for NZV8 Touring cars working in conjunction with MotorSport Promotions Limited.

It actually says "working in conjunction with MotorSport Promotions" which does not necessarily mean working for them. If he has been directly employed by MSNZ then this would be another example where MSNZ has lost sight of who's interests they are meant to be acting.

From my recollection Brian was the GM of Global Promotions who ran Tier 1 many years ago. They got into strife and MSNZ had to bail them out. In the process they increased their (actually member club's) shareholding from 40% to 60% and levied a "one-off" $50 charge on all competition licences to pay for the bail out - however the $50 surcharge was never revoked and we are still paying it today!

[Carlo]

Keith Jones was the GM of Global Sports & Promotions and they were involved with a number of sports, Athletics, Soccer & Netball just to name a few, remember the Countrywide atletics meetings on TV, well that was all promoted by Global Sports & Promotions.

Brian Lawrence was their Motorsport man, John Adshead was their soccer man and I think that John Walker may have had something to do with athletics but I can not be too sure.

Keith was an absolute bundle of drive and energy and if I recall correctly, and I do stand to be corrected on this, some serious health issues affected his ability to run and control the business and he was unable to secure some of the sponsorships needed and some groups were left with activities planned and just about under action but without the required funding of the sponsorships. This in turn lead to the formation of TMC by the circuit owning clubs and MSNZ as they set about trying to recover the situation. Remember too that this all happened about the same time as the cars were on the water from the USA & UK etc for the summer series so there was no time to be lost.

All part of history now.

[GD66]

Apparently Brian Lawrence has been appointed by Motorsport New Zealand to sort out the classes and to undertake the promotional duties within the The MSNZ Promotional Company. Wasn't he one those who stuffed it up originally and was the reason MSNZ now are the owners of what to all intents and purposes is an illegal organization.


You could also be forgiven for mentioning Global's efforts with the World Superbikes at Manfield, or the varying misfortunes of DJR a few years back... Brett Stephens Racing...one would wonder what the successful cv entailed when the position was allocated.
Anyway, onward and upward...:cool:

[screwdriver]

However, it is pretty evident that the VCC clubs do not have the experience of running circuit meetings and this is an area that needs improvement, if only for their own protection.
Thank goodness someone who was there can confirm my opinion of the Roycroft. There were crucial manning positions totally overlooked - and it wasn't a shortage of manpower.
RogerH is well aware of how most local classic meetings run and how well they run when manned correctly. AMCO72 may well be surprised at these omissions, but it is to the credit of one or two non VCC people that the meeting ran as well as it did as they were drafted in or had their original roles expanded. Outsiders (meaning those who have never actually run a meeting) are always blown away the first time they get involved as from the driving seat, meetinmgs "just happen".

HRC and TACCOC for example, make it all look so smooth and easy, as they have well honed system and personnel, who know what they are doing. The development of the internet and the on line entry system for example, has made race organisation so much easier, as no longer do organisers have to print and circulate 400+ sets of regs for every meeting.

VCC elected to do everything manually and this in itself creates problems for those who have an involvement and need comprehensive and accurate information. Just as an example, the 2011 Roycroft programme didn't even have the VCC driver's Christian names published and there were several instances of the same car race number being used more than once in a race grid! (That still happens now and again at many meetings and is up to the meeting officials to sort out before the programme is published. No fun for a marshal or race official, dummy grid marshal, timekeeper, scrutineer, commentator, race reporter, photographer or even spectator.) Thankfully 2012 was slightly better.

Ironically, post Roycroft, I am not sure that the organisers have those manning omissions covered for next year. I would have thought that the logical thing to do would be to have a debrief from those from outside the VCC who got stuck in to make the meeting run and add to the knowledge base.

We look forward to the DVD of the meeting.

[GeebeeNZ]

Perhaps if Screwdriver would be kind enough to email me privately and explain what he is actually talking about, the VCC might just be able to "have those manning omissions covered for next year." Yes it would be logical to have a debrief from those from outside the VCC who got stuck in to make the meeting run and add to the knowledge base if only we knew who they were. This is all a surprise to me as the meeting was run with close consultation with the Hampton Downs management who I believe are very close to the same HRC that you say make the meetings run smooth and easy.
Graeme Banks
Secretary Treasurer
Waitemata Branch Vintage Car Club of NZ
email. waitemata@vcc.co.nz

[screwdriver]

Would do Graeme!

But:

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

waitemata@vcc.co.nz (http://www.theroaringseason.com/webmail/src/compose.php?send_to=waitemata%40vcc.co.nz)

[GeebeeNZ]

Sorry should be waitemata@vcc.org.nz

[Oldfart]

I feel the need to respond to Screwdrivers "copy and paste" from another thread.
Please be aware that I have almost no involvement with the organisation, but am a very willing participant, so I am not defending the organisers, just expressing a view from one who participates.
Please have a look at the origin of the piece you pasted from Roger Herrick, and make sure that you have not taken it out of context.
You make mention of "doing everything manually and this creates problems...." now I am curious who these people are who need such detailed information. There are no prizes, no results, handicaps are treated with no seriousness at all, so who really cares?
In 2011 there were NO lap times taken and the entrants gridded themselves where they liked, generally finding others with whom they could play, and the vast majority, if not all, loved that.
In 2012 there was an offer from someone to manually time, this offer was accepted (and help offered) and as far as I could see it worked just fine.
In regard programmes, please remember that the "spirit" of the event is what matters, and if you can find programmes from the "good old days" they rarely (if ever) had other than initials, perhaps this is what was intended? If you look at the "advertising" in the programme it was likewise period, does this come in for criticism as well?
I also think you need to discover who it was that asked if they could cover the on circuit manning BEFORE you make further comment in this regard. (And I won't comment on the ability of some of those either)
I do have criticisms, some of these relate to the abilities of the on track officials, some are at a management issue, but I have taken the (unusual?) step to address them to the organisers, rather than a forum, and also used my name.

[RogerH]

The running of an event is not an easy task - from a competitor and spectator perspective it all seems pretty straightforward if things run smoothly. However, if things go wrong the repercussions can be very significant if proper procedures were not followed.

Having attended (as a competitor) many events over the years, it is evident that the standards of race organisation varies considerably. The VCC type events are usually more "relaxed" and while this may be part of the "spirit" I fear that this relaxation and lack of officialdom may be a bit of a time bomb.

Through my committee involvement with TACCOC, I know of the extent of effort required to put on a meeting. TACCOC has a well proven system honed over several decades. The system works well and relies on a lot of volunteer input but a significant part of the system is ensuring that if anything goes wrong there is no room for comeback on the club or officials.

The VCC events (such as the Roycroft meeting) are a very welcome addition to the calendar and I hope that they grow in popularity. With that growth in popularity comes demands for greater efficiency and the requirement for slicker event structure - this may impact on the relaxed atmosphere, at least behind the scene.

I don't think we can expect a club that is new at this (eg: the Waitemata Branch) to come up to speed overnight. Clubs like TACCOC are happy to help (in fact, TACCOC provided assistance at the Roycroft meeting) but I think the VCC clubs putting on events need to balance the "spirit" and relaxed atmosphere with ensuring that they protect themselves in case something does go wrong and have a structure that can cope with the demands of putting on a large event.

The Roycroft meeting was a good and popular event and was an improvement on the previous one. There is room for improvement and I trust the organisers are aware of these issues. I'm sure that if they approached people like HRC and TACCOC who have considerable experience, they would be pleased to offer advice.

[Oldfart]

Agree with everything you say Roger, and there is ALWAYS room for improvement. One of the reasons I gave up on motorsport in the 70s was that there were clubs, some still in existance that refused to change, or learn from anything. One of the clubs you name has in the past accepted money for entries, cashed the cheques and then argued black and blue on the day that it had not been received, and this for more than one competitor who had travelled hundreds of kilometers, and it took some fairly hefty discussion to be allowed to compete. No apology, no acknowledgement and no results. Not every event runs smoothly, and for what it's worth this was not very many years back.
One of my comments to Screwdriver was in regard to computers and timing, I still have no reason to alter my stance on that.
Cheers Rhys

[screwdriver]

Just to expand. (as Roger has attempted to do).

Using the local computerised on line system (available to all race organisers) creates all the info needed for all the officials of the event - automatically. It relies on:

a) The driver supplying ALL details required - DoB, licence, contact details etc - just once
b) Someone supplying all the relevant car details - just once.
c) Selecting the appropriate car(s) for each meeting (if someone runs a saloon and a single seater, they merely select the correct vehicle).

Once these are in the system, it is all accurate (presumably) and therefore can be speedily extracted in various forms to suit whoever needs it. That includes several officials who need different info, the programme, the scrutineers, meeting secretary and so on. Whilst timekeeping may not be a serious issue at Roycroft, how do you think the timekeeper gets his information into his computer? Do you think he wants to sit there with an inaccurate programme and type everything in?

The system also records the date and time of entry, which makes it very difficult to deny a requested entry has been lodged. It doesn't guarantee the entry has been accepted, but it is there in black and white to say it was lodged.

How many of you are aware for example, that the secretary of the meeting, (certainly for National race permits) has to submit an age breakdown of all competitors? Male and female?

Whilst it may well be old English to refer to Mr G B H Farrington-Smythe, have you ever tried commentating or writing a race report from minimal information? Have you tried cataloguing your photographs accurately and comprehensively? OK if you know the guy as Gerard, know his car and know a bit about him, but the purpose of a race programme is to not only inform officials, and spectators, but over time, it becomes an historical document.

If there is race incident and you are a race marshal and have to radio it in, and you only have an inaccurate programme to refer to, it can lead to the wrong driver being put in front of the Stewards. (Yes, it has happened.)

You may have short memories, but the lack of structure and adherence to publishd ASRs, cost not only the Queenstown Officials a lot of grief and stress, but also cost all licence holders a substantial levy.

If you elect to run a race meeting in this day and age, you have to be aware of your responsibilities and as Roger states quite correctly, if you don't do the job properly you are putting yourselves at risk.

I know of one race series organiser and at least one club, who have been through costly legal battles with dissatisfied drivers - and this is supposed to be amateur sport for older guys with older cars? Another series organising committee was threatened earlier this year with legal action from a classic racer, so don't think that it couldn' happen at a VCC meeting.

I choose to use a nom-de-plume as it is too easy to throw stones at the messenger instead of listening to the message. It is not a form of cowardice, but sometimes you have to play devil's advocate to generate robust debate. No progress was ever made by agreeing with everybody on every issue.

I share Roger's wish for a more professional race meeting, but still with the low key fun and participation. It is a common misconception that because any event is deemed low key, that it doesn't need to be slick and efficiently run and that the officials will never find them selves in the dock. This is not in any way a criticism of VCC or their committee, who are dedicated to putting on a great event, which hopefully will continue to improve, and I am sure it will.

Some contributors on here need to accept that whether we like it or not, organisers have a more onerous responsibilty than in the 1970s and earlier.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Screwdriver ------”I choose to use a nom-de-plume as it is too easy to throw stones at the messenger instead of listening to the message. It is not a form of cowardice, but sometimes you have to play devil's advocate to generate robust debate. No progress was ever made by agreeing with everybody on every issue.”

Pull the other tit. :eek: :)

Trevor.

[Racer Rog]

Agree with what Roger H and Screwdriver are saying, and it is a concern, having run a few meetings over the years now, I can tell you all, no matter how many times you do it, at the debrief, you will always find that there was something missed, or something that could be done differently, or better, eg, the forms you used at the last meeting may have changed for the next, you have to check all the time, and I don't think that a lot of people (competitors) could even dream about the amount of time is involved, as has been noted earlier, we try to make it like it was, in a relaxed manner in Historic and Classic meeting, but have to be mindful of living in the real world, when it all turns to shit, it is at this point I have serous concerns, about the VCC having the procedures and traing in place, to be able to avoid another Queenstown.
Roger

[markec]

Queenstown wasn't about the organizing it was about those who were directed to do a task, then were lax in fulfilling those duties.

[Racer Rog]

As one who was involved, I can assure you, it was a little more than that, I had the Police chaseing me all over the South Island at various stages and spent two days being grilled in the Police station in Q/T after the event, Eric Swinbourne and myself did extensive reports on the car involved, the others involved could not beleive just what was happening, but it all came down doting the "i's" and crossing the "t's", and it has changed just how MSNZ does things, and a very expensive and mind boggling experience for all involved, plus some very very strange happenings.
Roger

[RogerH]

Although I was not involved in the Queenstown incident (unlike Roger), I have seen the repercussions that have impacted the way we have to organise meetings. Much of the process is bureaucratic and onerous but it does serve to protect clubs and club officials in the event that something goes wrong.

Motor sport is inherently dangerous and incidents do occur from time to time - VCC type cars and events are not immune to this and that imposes potential risk on the VCC, VCC clubs and those club officials. My concern is that while MSNZ has reacted to the Queenstown outcome and established protective procedures, the VCC has not enacted similar processes.

While VCC events such as the Roycroft meeting are positive contributors to the sport and are proving increasingly popular, the potential risks do not seem to have been addressed. In recent times I have competed at VCC circuit events where the processes in place were such that in the event of an incident the organising parties would have probably been found culpable.

We don't want to detract from the relaxed atmosphere of these VCC events but that doesn't mean that the proper procedures need to be ignored. The "behind the scenes" processes can be properly done and the meeting can still run in an outwardly relaxed manner.

It would be a terrible outcome if these welcome VCC events unfortunately became the subject of another Queenstown incident.

[markec]

All the initial Police input was disorganized and misdirected, being pushed by a then MANZ steward. If good investigating had been done from the start without all of the emotionalism that took place, MANZ would have been included in the charges instead of having to admit to having some responsibility, when those accused were found not guilty.They were found not guilty as the directives they had made were correct to the International Motorsport laws, as I said in an earlier post the duties of some of those involved were not carried out effectively.not those who organized the event but by those who chose to take on duties running the event.

[Trevor Sheffield]

As one who was involved, I can assure you, it was a little more than that, I had the Police chaseing me all over the South Island at various stages and spent two days being grilled in the Police station in Q/T after the event, Eric Swinbourne and myself did extensive reports on the car involved, the others involved could not beleive just what was happening, but it all came down doting the "i's" and crossing the "t's", and it has changed just how MSNZ does things, and a very expensive and mind boggling experience for all involved, plus some very very strange happenings.
Roger


Some interesting factual information is available. Click here. -----

http://rivers.org.nz/article/criminal-nuisance-prosecutions-in-recreation

N.B. the included statement. ---- “As the law in New Zealand stands at present, (i.e. 2004) criminal nuisance can arise from ordinary errors of judgement. In Britain, Canada and Australia, gross negligence is required.”

Has there been any amendment in the law, or does this situation still apply? In the event that the law stands, it is surely idiotic for any person to become involved with organising a motor racing event, given the current attitude of the police in pressing ahead with doubtful prosecutions.

Trevor.

[Racer Rog]

I can well remember the Officier in charge, who was a rising star in the Police at that time, arriving on the scene, and he knew more about Motor Sport regs, than the CoC and Stewarts, and the fact that there was Police personal involved in the accident( ask Karen Clearwater about that, she was the point marshall, and this is where things got very strange), but that man was on a mission to make a name for himself, I guess when looking back on the whole thing, we where lucky it was not worse, and it was a wke up call, but one that Motor sport, was really not fully prepared for, but I must say now, there are systems in place, and are being continually evolved as a direct resault, so that is one positve point about Motor Sport NZ today.
Roger
Trevor, as I understand it, from a lawyer mate( if they ever have mates) that is correct.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Thanks Roger,

I gather that you are advising that the law still stands in its original form with no amendments, in which case:-

Section 145 of the Crimes Act 1961 states, under the heading “Criminal Nuisance, --- “Every one commits criminal nuisance who does any unlawful act or omits to discharge any legal duty, such act or omission being one which he knew would endanger the lives, safety, or health of the public, or the life, safety, or health of any individual

Does the work of a non paid volunteer involve a legal duty and just how much specific knowledge is an individual expected to have? All and sundry appear to remain culpable and the extent of possible liability is endless. Anyone in any way receiving remuneration traceable to a payment made by a competitor or spectator, would surely be in shit street.

The honorary club secretary slips up by not checking that a competitor has presented a valid vehicle inspection, or a volunteer helping with the dummy grid lets out a car not properly verified. Subsequently the car brakes are found defective following a prang involving several spectators. Where in fact does everyone stand and are volunteers aware of possible liabilities? What sort of public liability insurance is put in place towards their protection?

Trevor.

P.S. We must presume that the medical profession remains outside of this law. :rolleyes:

[ERC]

I'm a newbie on here but have followed this thread for some time, even whilst travelling overseas.

My biggest fear as a series organiser and occasional promoter, is that there is a fatality either at the meeting or within our series. It haunts me, and some of my decisions, even today, are driven by the Queenstown accident.

The toughest decision I have made in recent years was suspending a likeable and friendly series driver, following a second incident within 5 years, plus a couple of other respected drivers' complaints. Had this same driver subsequently been involved in a fatal and I had done nothing, then in my eyes, let alone the courts', I would have been culpable. No doubt about that. (I spent six years working in the UK Prison Service and have no wish to be in one of Her Majesty's Hotels in NZ.)

VCC cars have a massive speed differential and some of the drivers may not be as track savvy as say the Formula Junior drivers and you do not need to be going fast, to be thrown from a vintage car with no seat belts.

Having been part of Roycroft for two years as an invited commentator, I can verify earlier comments regarding some aspects of the meeting. The programme was indeed improved for 2012 after I had explained that it was almost impossible to commentate without accurate information in 2011, and no pre-event info.

Fortunately, for me, I know most of the Formula Junior cars and drivers, so that race wasn't too difficult in 2011. Trying to commentate when you aren't familiar with the VCC cars or the drivers, with race numbers in the programme not always matching up was a problem. Fortunately, Graeme was a massive help trackside, and I then had to rely on memory when I moved to race control, in the apartment blocks, away from the timekeeper and the results.

For 2012, I was one of those who ended up doing something other than my primary role. As commentator, my job, as I see it, is to inform spectators (if any!) of what is going on, that they can't see for themselves. A task that was impossible when trying to call up the paddock to the dummy grid, as this job wasn't being covered by VCC.
The sound system at HD leaves a lot to be desired so I spent part of the time chasing latecomers to the dummy grid. Maybe that is what screwdriver was alluding to. For my part, with better info from Ian G, I did know a bit more than in 2011 and several cars were repeats, which helps.

This is a fantastic meeting with fantastic cars and Waitemata VCC are moving forwards, but I did wince a few times... I urge Graeme and his team to consider using the motorsport entry system, as it does indeed take a load of work away from the secretariat. Used properly it is a massive time saver.

I'd love to be able to promote a meeting with our regular classic grids and also a grid of VCC cars, as they are great to watch and 1000% better than the NZV8 and Tier 1 races.

[Racer Rog]

Trevor, Think that If you were a volunteer, or a paid official, you would be liable under section 145, [B]IF you failed to discharge your duties as set down by your own regulations[B] so this why we are protected by our manual, step outside of that when it all turns to shit, and you do at your own peril, along with the added levies imposed on the rest of us to bail you out, but the short and sweet of it is that you could be looking out of a small window, in a small room with Bubba. I do know that there are many here that share these concerns, Motor Sport NZ has asked the VCC for a formal accident report, from a serous accident at Levels, to my current knowledge, this has not been done, the vehicles involved did not conform to the current agreement with MSNZ, the VCC respnse was very poor, at best, and it was MSNZ officials to took charge, and this accident was only a click of the neck away from having a dead competitor, in fact I think he has just got rid of the bits of steel that held his head on his neck!!, avery close call, while it still may have happened, its the Failure of doting of the i's and crossing the t's, and this is where Section 145 would have got them, and we may or may not have, been a party to any libility, as it could have been argued that we were aware of these facts, even though we are just being nice to the competitors. ( a problem I don't have, I'm not nice to anyone!!) BAH Humbug
Roger

[ERC]

One of the early lessons I learned in my Prison Service training, from a wise old Principal Officer.
"If you are in management, then you have to be prepared to be a b*st*rd when required."

So, yes, totally agree Roger. Being nice to competitors is fine until such times as you invoke the responsibilities of your position, be that as an event official, series organisor, or marshal. The book is there. We have to abide by it. Our series regulations or articles are only there to give me the backing for any decisions and also a degree of consistency. If that makes me/us unpopular, so be it and no amount of threats, legal or otherwise, from a disgruntled driver who has been excluded for dubious driving, is going to change it.

[Carlo]

Hi Racer Rog, nice to see that my continual lectures at the post event Stewards meetings have been listened too and that we are reading from the same page.
Yes the Clerk of course is responsible for the meeting from the moment that the regulations are released until his closing report is received. The C of C is reponsible for the actions off all officials working under their control be thet gatekeepers, scruitineers of flag marshals
When the Stewards sign off the clearance certificate at the beginning of a meeting they are confirming that the C of C has demonstrated to them at all the safety aspects of the event are up to the requirements of the safety plan and fully operational. The Stewards constantly observe to ensure that competition is fair, safe and conducted within the rule of the sport. This applies to all events be they hiilclimbs, sprints or race meetings etc.

As you can quickly see both the C of C and the Stewards have one hellave responsibility, a responsibility that should someone downstream of them not conduct their role or task as per the rule book will see that their personal liberty is at risk

[Trevor Sheffield]

Thanks again Roger,

Therefore anyone providing assistance at a motor race who does not know about, or fully understand MSNZ regulations, which would apparently set down the legal duty to be provided, unwittingly remains at substantial risk, even though normal diligence was applied.

My point, which I now rest. --- Are spontaneous volunteers made aware of their possible culpability and does MSNZ offer them any degree of cover? Having regard for the essential services provided by so many willing helpers, this is surely an important subject.

Trevor.

[Racer Rog]

Trevor, you are right to a degree, but Carl has nailed it, it is the chain of responibility, and flows to the top,so when the Stewards sign it off for the meeting to start, there has been a lot lot of water flow under the bridge at that point, trouble starts if you do not follow the plan, so to speak, and this is where MSNZ spends considerable time money and effort, in training to get all officials reading off the same page, and I would say, in the most part they have done well in doing this, our rules and regulations are being looked at questioned etc all the time, to ensure the competitors and officials get the most upto date protection, in both a legal, as well as a physical sense ( current safty standards) For MSNZ to ignor, current safety standards, could in fact, have cause of action under Section 145.So just for fun racing is not quite so for running it, and as Carl has said, the debrief is a very important factor, and this is done so any issues can be addressed ( Yes I do Listen Carl) and systems improved.
Roger
BUT one thing I would say, is that althought all competitors get a manual, very few will carry it with them, or read it!!!

[Trevor Sheffield]

Again Roger,

Unfortunately I am unable to let the matter rest due to my two simple questions calling for a “yes” or “no”, not being answered. ---

“Are spontaneous volunteers made aware of their precarious position and does MSNZ offer them any degree of cover.”

At this point it must be assumed that volunteers accept responsibility and unwittingly place themselves in danger of serious litigation without insurance protection, which however is no doubt available to those receiving remuneration at the top.

Yes the chain of responsibility flows to the top, but it starts at the bottom where the can is in fact carried and where investigation will be initiated and blame first directed.

Trevor.

[screwdriver]

“Are spontaneous volunteers made aware of their precarious position and does MSNZ offer them any degree of cover.”
Trevor.
No and yes I presume.

Although I have attended many marshal's briefings and a fair few driver briefings, I would hope that every volunteer does his or her best and that MSNZ will back them.

As a long time flaggie, about to return to the UK (sadly), I'll pose a question to those of you with experience of running a meeting. Quite a few of you it seems.

Are you satisfied by the fire cover at meetings? Is the MSNZ book of words acceptable to you? If you adhere to the MSNZ directives, to the letter, then are you safe - or is MSNZ safe?

I ask this as my flaggie fire training was quite structured, in as much as the UK flaggies used to use a 4 x 2 system when dealing with a fire. (This was a fair few years ago. I know fire extinguisher technology has improved somewhat.) Two extinguishers were used to knock the fire down and two were then used to smother it. On arrival in NZ I was staggered to find that they only ever had one extinguisher per post and in those days, with single layer Proban suits, driver protection was minimal.

Suit technology has improved too, but your modern Flamecrusher suit is only good for about 30 seconds in a fuel fire.

So I ask again, are you satisfied that a single extinguisher on a post is sufficient and that the marshal, with thinking time included, say 10 seconds, can get to a fire and do something positive in 20 seconds?

Again, a fair few years ago, I drove a so called fire car in NZ. The roll cage wasn't even attached to the car.

Without crossing ALL the Ts and dotting all the I's, we can always improve our systems but motorsport will always have an element of danger, but we have to stand by our officials and unless they have been grossly negligent, I would hope we never have another Queenstown.

[crunch]

Would be nice to see a grid of proper VCC cars, that are in the spirit of the VCC, as was the entry at the Roycroft meeting, at a regular MSNZ meeting

Could not agree more! That would be fantastic and after all; I assume what we all want.:cool:

[crunch]

Apparently Brian Lawrence has been appointed by Motorsport New Zealand to sort out the classes and to undertake the promotional duties within the The MSNZ Promotional Company. Wasn't he one those who stuffed it up originally and was the reason MSNZ now are the owners of what to all intents and purposes is an illegal organization.

MotorSport NZ DID NOT appoint Brian Lawerence to any position and he does not hold any position paid or unpaid within MSNZ

[crunch]

Queenstown wasn't about the organizing it was about those who were directed to do a task, then were lax in fulfilling those duties.

There were facets in this unfortunate saga that were due to a breakdown in organisation. Basically; "follow what the rulebook states and do not stray from it and you will not face the same consequences" was the lesson we learnt from Queenstown ...a harsh and expensive one at that.

[ERC]

Would be nice to see a grid of proper VCC cars, that are in the spirit of the VCC, as was the entry at the Roycroft meeting, at a regular MSNZ meeting

Could not agree more! That would be fantastic and after all, I assume what we all want.:cool:

Great! We are running a one day meeting the Sunday after Roycroft next year, also at Hampton Downs. I am happy to offer the VCC a grid if they are interested and as long as there are no MSNZ issues. I don't want to devalue the Roycroft in any way at all but my thinking is that if we can get more South Island cars up to Roycroft, maybe they would consider it more worthwhile staying for the week.

Maybe this should be a separate thread... I'll go ahead and repeat this message in a new thread.

[Trevor Sheffield]

There were facets in this unfortunate saga that were due to a breakdown in organisation. Basically; "follow what the rulebook states and do not stray from it and you will not face the same consequences" was the lesson we learnt from Queenstown ...a harsh and expensive one at that.

Kia ora crunch,

Having been unable to secure a difrect answer in respect of an important situation, I now direct my questions to you. Please, first off with no preamble, a direct answer, yes or no and yes or no.

(1) Are spontaneous volunteers made aware of their precarious position as a result of the law and (2) does MSNZ offer them any degree of cover.


You state ---- "follow what the rule book states and do not stray from it and you will not face the same consequences" (Conversely, otherwise you could very well suffer the same serious consequences.)

Are all volunteers provided with a rule book, or made exactly aware of the contents of the rule book? Are they in truth aware of the possibly serious predicament they face?

The law as it stands. --- “Every one commits criminal nuisance who does any unlawful act or omits to discharge any legal duty, such act or omission being one which he knew would endanger the lives, safety, or health of the public, or the life, safety, or health of any individual.”

Although endeavouring to abide by the rule book a volunteer who by chance “omits to discharge any legal duty” remains at risk, particularly as it can be proven by the book that “such act or omission being (is) one which he knew would endanger the lives”. In point of fact the rules hang him rather than offer protection. Bully for the administrators.

A new flag marshal on a club day confronted with an accident, flustered confused and without real experience inadvertently in haste grabs and waves the wrong flag. As a result other points do not immediately display the correct red and a disastrous pile up results involving the public as spectators. Alternatively, a crowd marshal does not prevent a spectator invading a dangerous area. There are endless similar dicey situations, in all of which it would appear that the marshal involved stands alone facing an ill defined law.

By contrast,those at the top, having provided adequate rules and instructions, remain isolated from any alleged unlawful act and what is more are no doubt covered via MSNZ public liability insurance. The unpaid marshal or helper, can well be left carrying the can. Just where do these important volunteers stand if they were to face litigation.?

Trevor.

[markec]

Like Queenstown Trevor, out on their own.

[Carlo]

To put it in simplestic terms, if I as a clerk of course empower an incompent person who does not follow their instructions and training that maybe I should have provided then that is my fault. The guys at the bottom of the heap are ok, it is the ones at the top who are in strife if underachievers and the incompetents of our world go out on their own agenda cause we let them. If we follow the rules and documented procedure then everyone is safe. If the procedures are wrong then everyone can learn from that and changes will be made. The problem occurs when you go outside of the requirements. It is exactly the same in industry, follow the rules and impliment a practise of continious improvement

Our biggest mistake is that we feel sorry for people and as any good old garage proprietor will tell you. the moment you feel sorry for someone, back off as it will hurt you in the end, their problem is their problem, don't make it yours.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Like Queenstown Trevor, out on their own.

Thanks markec,

Exactly as had I had assumed. The diversion and side stepping by others is starting to tell its own story and confirm an unfortunate situation.

Trevor.

[crunch]

Thanks markec,

Exactly as had I had assumed. The diversion and side stepping by others is starting to tell its own story and confirm an unfortunate situation.

Trevor.

Hello Trevor

My personal understanding is that a flag marshall or similar should have a briefing at each meeting they attend. Within that briefing should be a review of what their function is and how to do it. Anything less would be irresponsible.
Attendance (and hopefully listening & understanding the briefing) is all that is required so that can function in that role.

At the end of the day; the "buck" stops with MSNZ Licencsed officials. That is the CotC.

I will contact our legal advisor to get a more legally worded reply.

[crunch]

And to you and Markec, I am not side-stepping any issue as you insinuate. I am endeavouring to get a correct reply.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Greetings crunch,

The questions are simple and straight forward and every executive member of MSNZ should be aware and capable of providing the required yes or no.

With due respect it can surely now be safely assumed that. ----

(1) Are spontaneous volunteers made aware of their precarious position as a result of the law, (i.e. directly and specifically.) NO they are not.

(2) does MSNZ offer them any degree of cover, (e.g. insurance cover, guaranteed legal assistance or a written disclaimer.) NO it does not.

No “legally worded reply” can alter what is fact, no matter the jargon employed. The crunch of the matter involves where blame will start, not where at the end of the day, the buck stops.

Trevor.

[ERC]

I am glad you raised this issue Trevor. Each licenced driver gets a rule book when they get a race /rally licence. Volunteers do not.

In the days before I started racing, I'd be on a flag point at Whenuapai and Pukekohe and have many happy memories of those times. I know that current flag marshals' briefings are very comprehensive compared to what we had and whenever possible, you have an experienced point chief, who basically controls the point, but not always.

However, I know I am not the only one in this forum who has been competing at a race meeting and heard the call for volunteers to assist, as there are insufficient flaggies to man all points and the meeting cannot start until the points are covered. I just wonder how many on those flag points are indeed inexperienced?

Locally, the Motorsport Club has made huge strides to get people involved on a more structured basis, but we are always going to get inexperienced volunteers and even then, even experience doesn't mean you always make the right decision.

I sincerely hope we never hang a low level volunteer out to dry for an error of judgement.

As an aside, I still believe that before anyone gets a race licence, that they should spend at least two or three days on a flag point at a national meeting.

And another aside, I believe that even Mike Pero earlier this year, didn't realise that flaggies and officials were unpaid.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Thank you ERC,

You wisely comment --- "I sincerely hope we never hang a low level volunteer out to dry for an error of judgement."

The very point if this exercise is that it is the law which will decide and then due to factors beyond control. Therefore unsuspecting, unpaid helpers, should be protected. Current NZ law renders the situation you fear a very real possibility. I very much suspect that argument from the MSNZ camp will centre on and be limited to efforts to show that volunteers are not in fact vulnerable and therefore do not require protection.

Trevor.