The State of NZ Motorsport.

[crunch]

With due respect it can surely now be safely assumed that. ----


Trevor.[/QUOTE]

An old mentor of mine (Rob Lester) use to say to me when somebody uses the above statement, they actually mean "with no respect whatsoever"

Personally; volunteers in my opinion do not face the "brunt of the law" as you suggest. That is differnet to your view and lets hope we never have to test it.

[richard lester]

With due respect it can surely now be safely assumed that. ----


Trevor.

An old mentor of mine (Rob Lester) use to say to me when somebody uses the above statement, they actually mean "with no respect whatsoever"

Personally; volunteers in my opinion do not face the "brunt of the law" as you suggest. That is differnet to your view and lets hope we never have to test it.[/QUOTE]
you are so right crunch...we as robs kids grew up on that logic.....this has been an absorbing thread about a not really likely scenario....and seemingly to a degree fuelled by this general dislike of MNZ regardless of the topic .....this thread is of no interest to me at all but watching people grind away is interesting..... i guess if i was affected too much i would stop jumping on airplanes and certainly give up driving on our roads.....(no insult intended to anyone here BTW)..

[ERC]

Whilst it would be nice to think that volunteers do not face the brunt of the law, NZ has a "we must find a perpetrator or someone to blame mentality", driven by a mixturre of OSH and a battery of US influenced lawyers. The police have to find someone to put into court and then let the court/jury decide if they are guilty, so I wouldn't be too complacent.

Even if found not guilty by the court, the stress and mental strain (and possible financial strain) of having a trial hanging over your head for a year or two, does not bear thinking about. Juries are a strange mix of individuals (I spent enough time as a dock officer in places such as the Old Bailey, to really worry about some of them!) and I think we do need a categoric answer (from an MSNZ lawyer?) to state that we stand behind those volunteers, as without them, there ain't no racing.

This is by no means a criticism of MSNZ, just a desire for an open answer and some clarification.

[Trevor Sheffield]

With due respect it can surely now be safely assumed that. ----


Trevor.


An old mentor of mine (Rob Lester) use to say to me when somebody uses the above statement, they actually mean "with no respect whatsoever"

Personally; volunteers in my opinion do not face the "brunt of the law" as you suggest. That is differnet to your view and lets hope we never have to test it.


crunch & Co.,

“With due respect” has exact meaning, regardless of what your old mentor instructed in error and by way of opinion, i.e. I have respect for you, what you say, your opinion, your views. I do not resort to sarcasm as you have done and there is never anything to read between my lines. I resent your insidious side swipe.

Contrary to your implication, I have not suggested that the volunteers will face “the brunt of the law,” but rather that they are in peril of becoming involved in expensive lengthy contentious litigation, possibly leading to a conviction.

Your words, “let us hope that we never have to test it,” exactly confirm the situation affecting volunteers. It is significant that in such an instance of hope, only the “us” will stand protected and and an error in your personal opinion would not effect your well-being.

P.S. Meantime I am carrying out my own research concerning the exact degree of risk involved.

Trevor.

[Trevor Sheffield]

An old mentor of mine (Rob Lester) use to say to me when somebody uses the above statement, they actually mean "with no respect whatsoever"

Personally; volunteers in my opinion do not face the "brunt of the law" as you suggest. That is - to your view and lets hope we never have to test it.
you are so right crunch...we as robs kids grew up on that logic.....this has been an absorbing thread about a not really likely scenario....and seemingly to a degree fuelled by this general dislike of MNZ regardless of the topic .....this thread is of no interest to me at all but watching people grind away is interesting..... i guess if i was affected too much i would stop jumping on airplanes and certainly give up driving on our roads.....(no insult intended to anyone here BTW)..

It is clear that the MSNZ officials have been carefully diligent in keeping themselves safe. However my concern centres on individual volunteers, who as it has been pointed out, form an essential element within NZ motor sport.

By default, as a result of a failure to provide an answer to my simple questions, ---“Are spontaneous volunteers made aware of their precarious position and does MSNZ offer them any degree of cover.” *It has now become clear that
volunteers are not made aware of their precarious position and furthermore are not offered any degree of cover. Granted, there is a limited degree of risk, but volunteers should be devoid of and protected against, any possible risk. Morals are involved.

A lawyers opinion amounts to just that and will be subject to a watertight disclaimer and no guarantee. In no way will an opinion alter the situation and provide volunteers with true protection. As per established precedent the risk depends on the attitude of those implementing the law in respect of individual incidents. Investigation concerning possible insurance cover would determine in real terms, the risk factor involved. No work is called for, insurance reps will line up at the door. If as claimed the risks are small, the premium should be relative and viable.

* Ignorance of law:-
The fact that an offender is ignorant of the law is not an excuse for any offence committed by him.

The Law:-
Crimes against public welfare, 145 Criminal nuisance
(1) Every one commits criminal nuisance who does any unlawful act or omits to discharge any legal duty, such act or omission being one which he knew would endanger the lives, safety, or health of the public, or the life, safety, or health of any individual.
(2) Every one who commits criminal nuisance is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 1 year.

Trevor.

[Racer Rog]

In my version of how MSNZ operates, is this any volunteer, who is operating under MSNZ rules, are covered by those rules, and as been stated by others here,most if not all are given training to carry out these duties, yes I know there has been a call at some meetings for Flaggies, I have done it myself, but all have been briefed and understand the flags, and I would say 99.9% arein radio contact with the CoC, who is giving supporting advice. Now Trevor here is the hard part, with all the good intentions in the world, you are never going to get a real answer to your question, as when you get two Lawyers in a room, they will never agree, so what we really do is limit the damage, by following our written procedure, I have spoken long and hard with a Lawyer (yes he is a friend, just don't tell anybody) and it is a mine field, but put the hard yards in, also of note, the organizor of Le Race, won on appeal, but must have cost a fortune, this is why we pay the big bucks to MSNZ, in my own humble opinion, I don,t think the VCC has the same resources or experience to cover an "Queenstown", and recent experience would indeed confirm it. The Long and short of it is follow the rules, that is our level of protection, and esuring that this is done, is the job of the CoC, so he is the man in the hot seat, Trevor I know this is not the answer you would like, I don't think you will get one one or the other, for any answer you get saying yes, I will get another saying no, your best protection is follow the rules, I can't put it any simpler
Roger

[Oldfart]

Having pulled a post I wrote in haste last night..
I am not going to defend VCC over the incidents which the oblique references are made on here, I assume Timaru?
From what I understand these came about at a combined MSNZ and VCC meet?
I am also told by a steward that the cars competed with the agreement of both the MSNZ and VCC stewards present on the day. hat I m now asking is why it is that the VCC is having the finger pointed? Surely if both were involved it is a trouble shared?
I was told by a steward who was present, but not officiating that what he saw was a case of red mist. If that is the case, then is it not time that as drivers we take responsibility and stop blaming organisers? I have believed that since the late 60s when I first dabbled the standards of driving have deteriorated. In my book, "rubbing ain't racing", go drive at the stock cars if that is what is what you want. A driver who initiates an accident from over driving should bear all the costs of the others. Car damage, personal injury, loss of income etc. I suspect that might clean a bit of it up.
I was told when I first started, and I have NOT driven at any real level, but did flag to the GP level, that the flags are to help the driver make good decisions. As a sometimes driver now I find that the flags confuse me more than help. Yellow flags used when there is a car pulled well off the track, no greens to indicate the danger has passed, red flag when are car has pulled off and is in a place the drivers have known for the last couple of laps etc etc. And these were from a team who travel as flaggies, get re-imbursed for travel etc etc??

[Racer Rog]

OLDFART, please bush up on the flags before you go out next, and yes it was at Timaru, but it was a VCC race, their own permit, officials tec guys the lot, MSNZ stands aside when they race, but it wqas MSNZ that had to step in when it turned to shit.
Roger

[Carlo]

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/default/files/motorsport/manual/35%20%20NSC%20Part%2007%2066-89.pdf

It would be good if the people involved in this debate were to read the section relating to Part 7 Officials and look at their duties and authority.
With those roles defined you can easily see where the responsibilty lies and whilst using the Clerk of Course as an example, they may delegate the responsibility for a task to be done they cannot delegate the responsibility for that task being undertaken correctly.

[Trevor Sheffield]

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/default/files/motorsport/manual/35%20%20NSC%20Part%2007%2066-89.pdf

It would be good if the people involved in this debate were to read the section relating to Part 7 Officials and look at their duties and authority.
With those roles defined you can easily see where the responsibilty lies and whilst using the Clerk of Course as an example, they may delegate the responsibility for a task to be done they cannot delegate the responsibility for that task being undertaken correctly.


MSNZ can not eliminate personal responsibility as has been defined in law. Rules and regulations set out by MSNZ can do no more than protect MSNZ as an organisation, not individuals who must as such abide by the law. From the outset I have been fully aware of all ramifications involved in this issue. The facts of the matter stand.

Volunteers officiating at a motor race are placed at risk and are vulnerable due to the current law, no matter that the risk may be hopefully marginal. Many are unaware of their situation and remain unprotected, the degree of risk is beside the point.

Denying the situation by arguing as to the degree of risk, amounts to pissing into the wind. ;)

Trevor.

[crunch]

[
Denying the situation by arguing as to the degree of risk, amounts to pissing into the wind. ;)

Trevor.[/QUOTE]

That is it in a nutshell Trevor!
As we have been instructed by our legal advice, if MSNZ cocks up (or any of it's officials that we delegate responsibility to) that leads to a criminal case; the responsibility will rest with the Executive of the sport. eg. me!
Basically; follow the rulebook as Roger and Carl have stated and we all are OK.
Sorry if you took insult from a previous statement by me. :o

[RogerH]

[/QUOTE]

if MSNZ cocks up (or any of it's officials that we delegate responsibility to) that leads to a criminal case; the responsibility will rest with the Executive of the sport. eg. me!
[/QUOTE]

I presume that if an official acted irresponsibly or outside of the prescribed Manual then they could face personal charges. However, if it was a general situation where the established MSNZ procedures were found to be lacking then there could be damages against the MSNZ Executive but as the Executive are indemnified by MSNZ Inc, in reality any fiscal responsibility ultimately lies with all the member clubs ........

[Oldfart]

OLDFART, please bush up on the flags before you go out next, and yes it was at Timaru, but it was a VCC race, their own permit, officials tec guys the lot, MSNZ stands aside when they race, but it wqas MSNZ that had to step in when it turned to shit.
Roger

Roger, you asked me to "bush" up on my flags.
Please can you advise me where my belief is wrong with the attached paste from the MSNZ site.
Yellow Flag:
At all times:
(a) Single Waved: Reduce speed. Do not overtake. There is a hazard on or in
close proximity to the circuit.
(b) Double Waved: Reduce speed. Do not overtake. Be prepared to stop. There is
a major hazard on or in close proximity to the circuit.
(c) The no overtaking zone shall begin at the zone markers prior to the first flag post
displaying the waved yellow flag(s) and cease when the incident is passed, there
is a clear track and a waved green flag is visible to the driver at the next flag point.
Please, I am not being facetious. Are you saying that it is up to me to decide where the danger /hazard ceases to exist? If that were the case I could argue that there never was a danger so I could continue to pass wherever? My understanding is that I must wait until I can see a waved green before I resume "racing".
If I am correct, then if no green is shown anywhere on the circuit then everyone must hold position, and incidentally may not post a lap faster than any other lap(paraphrasing that rule) .
I am happy to be corrected on the Timaru situation, thank you. From a North Island VCC member perspective the cars involved in that incident do not fit VCC rules, pure and simple, and should not have been in the race. I was misinformed by the steward to whom I spoke.

[Carlo]

I presume that if an official acted irresponsibly or outside of the prescribed Manual then they could face personal charges. ........

Would you wish for anything different ?

[Trevor Sheffield]

Kia ora crunch/RogerH,

Yes in a nutshell. ---- MSNZ, you and others are all OK should a charge be directed your way, but the essence of the situation is that as someone else has pointed out #243, volunteers remain out on their own and a precedent exists.

I can not see how a volunteer co-opted spontaneously, could if personally charged prove that he is a delegated official, thus enabling him/her to pass the buck to MSNZ. What is more even if such could be arranged, the volunteer is likely to face substantial costs and hardship. Hence my original and repeated questions. ----

(1) Are spontaneous volunteers made aware of their precarious position as a result of the law and (2) does MSNZ offer them any degree of cover.

As a result of your earlier post, I have been awaiting your direct answers confined to yes and no, and your attention in this regard would be sincerely appreciated.

Trevor

[ERC]

It is a fine line between "irresponsible" and "an error of judgement" and I would not like to be in the dock accused of either.

An example from the McLaren festival: Just before the warm up lap, a ute went past a marshal's point and a broom fell off, landing in the middle of the track. The (experienced) marshals chose to ignore it and cars went past on their warm up whilst the broom was still on the track. (I have photographs and yes, I do know the marshals are regulars).

Whilst the cars were forming up on the grid, the marshal(s) still chose to do nothing, despite chants from the spectators. A spectating driver then hopped over the fence and retrieved the broom, to the cheers and applause of the spectators.

Now then. What would the situation be, if during the race, a car had run over that broom, snapped it, and the broken end had flown in the air, stabbed a following driver in the eye, who then crashed head on into a bank, snapped his neck and died?

The marshal was experienced. There had been a full marshal's briefing. The Clerk of the Course runs a good ship and in all other respects, the standard of marshalling was as good as normal.

Put yourself in the position of a widow, with a family to support and a hotshot lawyer. Who is in the gun sights and why? I am pretty sure MSNZ would be clean and the CoC would be clean.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Kia ora ERC,

The law is quite clear in this regard.--- Section 145 of the Crimes Act 1961 states, under the heading Criminal Nuisance, --- “Every one commits criminal nuisance who does any unlawful act or omits to discharge any legal duty, such act or omission being one which he knew would endanger the lives, safety, or health of the public, or the life, safety, or health of any individual."

Surely the marshal who did not pick up the broom or signal for the start to be withheld could be liable, as he did not discharge a legal duty as would be called for within MSNZ rules.

We are given to understand and would hope that MSNZ would accept responsibility, but notwithistanding the marshal would suffer considerable hardship and duress. In any event, the marshal holds no contract or guarantee that he is protected and will be dependent on the goodwill of MSNZ.

Trevor.

[Rod Grimwood]

This could be the answer, or were it would end.

[Trevor Sheffield]

A further interesting scenario:-

A bystander assists two boy racers by giving them a start signal and a crash results in a member of the public being injured. Though obviously involved, the individual assisting the racers is extremely unlikely to face prosecution. Identification is unlikely and no exacting legislation appears to cover their action.

By contrast, importantly within motor racing, a helper has absolutely confirmed and defined duties. In this situation an individual can be absolutely identified and remains in danger of prosecution as a specific law covers any and every misdemeanour. The very rules and regulations which protect MSNZ executives, in point of fact disadvantage volunteer helpers. N.B. ---

Section 145 of the Crimes Act 1961 states, under the heading Criminal Nuisance, --- “Every one commits criminal nuisance who does any unlawful act or omits to discharge any legal duty, such act or omission being one which he knew would endanger the lives, safety, or health of the public, or the life, safety, or health of any individual."

A wide cross section of sporting codes have been represented within efforts to have the current law amended. Pertinent, reasonable question number three. --- Can MSNZ confirm that they have become adequately involved in these efforts?

[Steve Holmes]

OK, this thread appears to be going round and round in circles, and not really achieving an outcome. The current state of NZ motorsport is not why I started this website. The Roaring Season was created to celebrate both motorsport history and modern day historic car racing, and I'm struggling to see how this thread fits in. I can see why you're asking these questions Trevor, but could this not be more simply answered with a quick phone call to the right person?

[Trevor Sheffield]

Kia ora Steve,

I sincerely regret that this thread falls outside of your endeavours which are very much appreciated.

Unfortunately phone calls would be pointless. The questions have been placed before the right persons, notably without reply. A precarious situation has been firmly confirmed and I am content to rest my case and I thank you for the opportunity you have made available. Hopefully some of those who contribute to MSNZ coffers, will take the matter further.

Trevor.

[ERC]

There are very few forums Steve, where these issues can be debated, so don't worry. There are plenty of other threads within this board more closely aligned to what your intentions were.

For too long, the Classic & Historic fraternity hasn't had much of a say and there are issues that should be openly debated by the rank and file. We shouldn't overlook the numbers involved in our section of the sport and the income we generate. Any circuit race organiser knows that the second biggest cheque of the meeting goes to MSNZ for the levies.

Sure, we may have been hung up on one aspect for a few posts, but that doesn't matter to me. We can all walk away when we want.

[Rod Grimwood]

Yep, as a competitor and a Sports Sedan Assoc. commitee person I did in late 80s. Just walked away. (found fishing) This is a subject that will go on forever amen.

[crunch]

Kia ora Steve,

I sincerely regret that this thread falls outside of your endeavours which are very much appreciated.

Unfortunately phone calls would be pointless. The questions have been placed before the right persons, notably without reply. A precarious situation has been firmly confirmed and I am content to rest my case and I thank you for the opportunity you have made available. Hopefully some of those who contribute to MSNZ coffers, will take the matter further.

Trevor.

I did reply Trevor, you just didnt like my replies.
Put your three questions in writing to The Executive, MSNZ PO BOX 3793 Wellington and then you will get an answer that will be informed as it will come from the sports legal people.
How about now we talk about some positive stuff instead of just bashing the governing body?

[crunch]

For too long, the Classic & Historic fraternity hasn't had much of a say and there are issues that should be openly debated by the rank and file.

You actually get an equal say to any other part/facet of the sport at the Executive table.
You have an advisory commission that has what I consider some of the best brains of H&C racing in the country.
On top of that; I co=opt 3 other individuals to sit in on our H&C Commission meetings for their area of expertise.
At our last H&C Commission meeting/catch-up at the conference in Auckland, I let numerous people from any club sit in and they had the opportunity to ask questions.
Towards the end of this year the H&C Commission will meet in Auckland and we intend asking anybody to attend an open discussion over a few beers with the aim of identifying what H&C needs for the future. We will also be doing this in Wellington and Dunedin
It is not a closed shop, that would be irresponsible governance. Where in the above paragraph that I have written can you find where the competitors in H&C motorsport hasnt had much of a say?
Honestly; if it can be improved, tell me how.
Cheers
Raymond Bennett

[Kiwiboss]

I haven't seen or been at the "coal face" as some of you in this much discuss'd post, and there's always room for improvement and that's not just in motorsport, but i must say considering the state of the world, Europe(other countries) and the economy in general i tend to think NZ Motorsport is in not a bad state(for 4.5 million people), not saying the governing body should rest on its laurels but when i look around at the NZV8/Supertourer fiasco(which i have no interest) and the other tier 1 groups onwards and down there's still plenty that want to chuck money in, and be involved in their chosen hobby, and in the Historic/Classic's groups there are those building/buying/importing vehicles, just look at the growth of Formula Junior's as an example!! so when i weight it all up the futures looking bright!! or maybe im just too damn positive and need a quick slap to wake me up!! But really, come on!! motor-sport is our chosen craft, so lets deal with the chosen hand we got and get going before we can't do it any longer!!

By agreeing and disagreeing makes it just prefect

Dale M

[Trevor Sheffield]

I did reply Trevor, you just didnt like my replies.
Put your three questions in writing to The Executive, MSNZ PO BOX 3793 Wellington and then you will get an answer that will be informed as it will come from the sports legal people.
How about now we talk about some positive stuff instead of just bashing the governing body?


Crunch or whoever, whatever?

As a matter of courtesy towards Steve, I endeavoured to bring this debate to a conclusion, but now can not let still further side stepping go without correction.

You are correct in pointing out that I did not and do not like your obtuse, irrelevant buck passing replies. You put aside what is an important, positive issue, claiming the bashing of the governing body. I prefer a straight forthright approach.

N.B. ---- Your reply post # 246 “I will contact our legal advisor to get a more legally worded reply.” --- No legally worded reply has been forthcoming. What is more, in spite of ongoing requests no direct answers have been posted

There is no need for me to extend inquiries. The content of this thread and the lack of answers to simple questions, by default, provides ample evidence as to the true position. No legal clap trap as a means of excuse can alter what is fact and points to negligence by way of MSNZ.

The forum is still waiting for three simple answers of yes or no. --- (1) Are spontaneous volunteers made aware of their precarious position as a result of the law and (2) does MSNZ offer them any degree of cover.

It transcends that. --- (1) Spontaneous volunteers are not made aware of their precarious position as a result of the law and (2) MSNZ does not offer them any degree of cover.

Post #269. A wide cross section of sporting codes have been represented within efforts to have the current law amended. Pertinent, reasonable question number three. --- (3) Can MSNZ confirm that they have become adequately involved in these efforts?

Any member of the executive should be aware and able to answer the above simple question (3). Therefore by default it can be taken that MSNZ have not been adequately involved in these worthwhile efforts.

It would have been encouraging if at the outset, we had been informed simply, “MSNZ is aware of the indicated shortcomings and the matter is in hand.” The silence is telling.

Trevor Sheffield.

[ERC]

Crunch, bearing mind we had tremendous suppport for the meeting in Auckland a couple of years ago, you challenged us to rewrite T & C as we thought it should be. We invested a lot of time, effort and consultation and had a consensus of opinion representing about 200 local classic drivers.

You took on board some of what the drivers wanted, but we still have several sticking points that you are well aware of. We, Alfa and probably many of the BMW fraternity are working happily within "our" rules. We are happy enough accepting the spirit of T & C even if not the rules as written.

We are always happy to discuss, but have not been persuaded to change our stance.

[Carlo]

I too would like to see this subject ended and focus on the things near and dear to us all which is of course the real stars of the show the cars themselves and the characters and stories around them

However I can not resist this continual head bashing by people who obviously are not aware that sometimes you have to take ownership of the problems that you yourself create and stop expecting evryone else to tidy them up for you afterwards

People continue to use the words "Spontaneous volunteers" to describe situations in questions of the sport so perhaps someone could enlighten me as to What Why and Who

Are these people required because the organisers of an event have failed to ensure that they actually have organised sufficient skilled and trained people to man their event?

If so is this the fault of Motorsport NZ or the event organisers?

The real question is, What effort have the organisers of the event done to cover the point raised Are spontaneous volunteers made aware of their precarious position as a result of the law

I would expect that any responsible organiser would have ensured that sufficent training had been undertaken with these " Spontaneous volunteers" to ensure that they undertake the duties that are asked of them correctly and safely so as not to place either themselves, the competitors, any spectators, the Clerk of Course and / or the Event organisers and as a consequence Motorsport NZ and it's membership at risk.

The question is "Do we have responsible organisers of these events?"

Once we have answered that can we please get back to the cars and the stories..................Please :)

[ERC]

As far back as I can remember, ALL people who entered a UK race track, either, signed on the dotted line, as officials or drivers OR, had an entry ticket with a warning on the back, reinforced by strategically placed signs, saying "Motorsport is Dangerous" and therefore by being there, you accepted the risks in whatever capacity.

Although it might not satisfy OSH or the courts, in the pre-litigation times, it seemed to work well enough. Maybe we need to step back a wee bit to those times, but I can't see it happening.

[crunch]

[QUOTE=Trevor Sheffield;15974]Crunch or whoever, whatever?


N.B. ---- Your reply post # 246 “I will contact our legal advisor to get a more legally worded reply.” --- No legally worded reply has been forthcoming. What is more, in spite of ongoing requests no direct answers have been posted

1. Trevor; the sports legal advisor is a busy man, we need to submit requests for work on our behalf in writing. That is all I'm asking for. An email is not enough.

2. ERC, yep; T&C has been changed but not as much as some wanted. However we had to take into account not only the submissions from that meeting we had in Auckland, but also submissions from other competitors around NZ. Some wanted NO change at all.We hope we achieved a balance

Raymond Bennett

[ERC]

As we said before Crunch, our stance has always been that we need an "umbrella" code that we can all accept (we being those who run either race meetings or race series). Under that umbrella, series convenors/committees can apply TIGHTER rules if they require, but not looser, to remain within T & C.

The areas that don't work, are where competitors are running older or rarer cars where conforming to some aspects of originality are impossible under T & C. As they do not affect track performance one iota, we do not see the need to have them applied.

Running a Mini, MGB or Ford Escort where model numbers and spares availability (and external trim) are easy, T & C works well, but we are trying to attract variety in the cars and to that end, as you well know, we have succeeded, so we don't see the need to change, to lose that variety, just to conform 100%.

[Trevor Sheffield]

[QUOTE=Trevor Sheffield;15974]Crunch or whoever, whatever?

N.B. ---- Your reply post # 246 “I will contact our legal advisor to get a more legally worded reply.” --- No legally worded reply has been forthcoming. What is more, in spite of ongoing requests no direct answers have been posted

1. Trevor; the sports legal advisor is a busy man, we need to submit requests for work on our behalf in writing. That is all I'm asking for. An email is not enough.

Raymond Bennett

Kia ora Raymond,


Trevor; the sports legal advisor is a busy man, we need to submit requests for work on our behalf in writing.

You had the option of writing and if this was too much trouble, the alternative of excusing yourself by posting advice that communication was proving difficult. You did nothing and failed to abide by your words, i.e. “I will contact our legal advisor to get a more legally worded reply.”


That is all I'm asking for. An email is not enough.

I have carefully perused the thread and can not find where you have asked me for something, email or something more, or is it that you are now asking for something? You are unable to say what you mean, or are being intentionally obtuse. Whatever, I cannot see you being effective within a committee situation.

Those who have genuine interest in the matter, as a result of the defensive backhanded replies, now have the answers called for and a very clear picture of the overall situation. It is time to abide by Steve’s request and close the subject.

As a good sport I have afforded you the opportunity of having the last word, but be careful. Ongoing procrastination has dug you a very deep hole and one more side step will drop you right in it so deep that you will never climb out.;)

Trevor.

[Chris Read]

Haven't followed this thread much but on the Queenstown race - I was racing that day and what a sorry state of affairs as to the ultimate police action but I will say no more as I have been in trouble before for my opinions on this.
BUT that day the racing was held up as the track inspector wanted some changes. When we got to practice and immediately at the end of the straight at the 270 degree L turn was a row of water filled drums......booompha - 120mph to zero in 5 yards as it was then. (having spectators on the other side of the drums was ok)
I asked the inspector and he said no run off allowed as cars would turn around against the traffic - fair enough. So I suggested we move the drums down the road a reasonable distance and paint a yellow line at the entrance and if anyone goes over this then they continue out the exit at the end and wait for the race to end. My interests were that we were all in 50 yr old cars and we did not need to test the machinery nor our bodies...... response NOPE!
Many others (espec the single seaters) had the same concerns over the daft situation so I asked for a second drivers briefing where we all agreed to the change and under this weight of opinion in 10 minutes we had it all done, albeit with a grumbling inspector.
The point being (finally) that at times practicality and safety has to triumph over 'the Rules' especially when they don't make sense such as the brief flirtation with having the red flag meaning you stop immediately where you are on the track instead of 'stop racing and continue back to the start/finish'.
There has to be a compromise so its MSNZ and (not or) organisers if we want to sort this out. Chris Read - Arrowtown.

[Oldfart]

I think this is well reasoned and sensible. Probably too much so to get the consideration it deserves!
Too sensible for me to have penned.
NZ MOTOR RACING – A SPORT IN CRISIS
Prologue
The writer has not been involved in the sport for several years now and acknowledges that handicap (or benefit) in drafting this paper. Looking from the outside it is clearly in turmoil with what was the premier category torn asunder and support categories either no longer existing e.g. Porsche and Formula Ford, or mere shadows of them former selves. The one exception to this being TRS, which can now legitimately claim to be the premier category in the MSNZ, stable. No doubt largely due to the professional discipline and resources of Toyota. The new SuperTourer product is now clearly the greatest attraction for owners, drivers, sponsors and spectators. I do however question its viability as a stand alone product.
Of course I know not what strategic and business planning processes are being worked through but I will not let that deter me from proposing a complete makeover. It is acknowledged that the problem is not unique to NZ with even FIA categories in deep bother. This is largely as a result of the GFC but the aftermath of that is not going away any time soon so get used to managing within it. Is it appropriate that the promotions company drives the sport?
This paper is confined to Tier 1 categories and events. The lower levels seem to be alive and well. When I refer to product it is in the context of Tier 1 categories, events and people.
The current product is jaded, same old, same old and needs a paradigm shift of categories, events and people. It is not a time to be footling around with Quaife v Hollinger et al issues. Whilst TRS is admired let us accept that NZ, like AU, is a tin top society. Sadly, we do not have the sophistication of Europeans. If a product is to be commercially viable it must play to its audience. The product cannot be taken seriously if the sport’s major attraction is playing in another sandpit.
1 The Categories
A. Premium Categories
[Sponsor] SuperTourers (From 2012/13)
Germane to any of this is integrating SuperTourers into the MSNZ stable not only assuaging their egos by recognizing them as the star category but deploying some of their good people in meaningful roles and giving them a disproportionate share of the financial cake (small as they may be). Almost the entire latest investment in NZ motor racing has been into this category. The sport’s leading competitors be they owners or drivers have demonstrated their disenchantment with the current MSNZ product by voting with their feet. Sure the end is nigh for Commodore and Falcon but other world cars will take their place and we should tag on to AU for make extension.
NZV8s (2012/13 only)
That brings into question the place of the new generation NZV8. I have constructed many such space frame cars and do believe myself to be knowledgeable enough to form a view on their respective merits. All I can say is that the NZV8 is indeed an unfortunate experiment no further advanced technically than an old OSCA car. I was incredulous at the low cost numbers being bandied about for them. I know what they cost. It would be farcical to see them in the company of SuperTourers. However as a new plan is rolled out the old cars probably have a season left in them. Appropriate resource needs to be appointed now to reconcile the technical/parity issues.
TOYOTA Racing Series (From 2012/13)
The good offices of Toyota have ensured the success this currently is and it should just be left alone for them to manage.
Junior Open Wheelers (From 2013/14)
Given the success of TRS is driven off aspiring internationals and a super short series contemplation needs to be given to a replacement for F Ford so that there is a serious single seater category outside the TRS rounds. A wonderful solution would be for Toyota to amortise their on track investment across another category but on a commercial return basis e.g. engine leases and parts supply. Appropriate resource could be part of the package.
[Sponsor] Saloons (From 2013/14)
The NZ market is predominantly compact to mid size saloons with a rapidly increasing Asian presence. To encourage a proliferation of these into the sport a new 2WD category to be developed with engines uprated to a level readily obtainable by all (and capped) and performance equalized by capacity to weight breaks. Modified road cars not BTCC type.
e.g. 1300cc – 750Kg, 1600cc – 900Kg, 2000cc – 1050Kg
As with all categories maximum deployment of controlled parts and strict cost control. Maximum age? This is a very significant exercise ideally headed by senior resource seconded from MSNZ technical.
B. Entertainment Categories
(Sponsor) Utes (From 2013/14)
This is off the wall! As I understand it 25% of new vehicle sales are diesel utilities so there is plenty of cheap stock around. Virtually standard but equalized, as are the V8 utes in AU. Trucks are dying (and an effront to the senses anyway) but the utes would have appeal to a different group of competitors. Once again dedicated resource.
Allcomers (from 2012/13)
No rules, as long as it complies with Schedule A. Impossible to police the vehicles or the people so let them rip, “race what you bring”. A home for the new generation NZV8s. A reasonable contemplation would hopefully be oversubscription with pre qualifying needed.

2 The Events
Clearly 2012/13 would be a transitory year and it could well be that resource limitations push a new category(s) out until 2014/15. Nothing too much wrong with the product evolving so that there is a continual reason to go watch.
Circuits
[75%] of the population (and competitors) are in the North Island so commercially that’s where the events should be. This will mean something like 6 meetings in the North (two at Pukekohe) and 3 in the South from Labour Day through to Easter but not all categories at each meeting e.g. TRS compressed into 5 weekends. A genuine enduro for SuperTourers (circa 500k). The sport can squabble over this.
The Races
The premium categories have this recognized with longer races and a genuine enduro for SuperTourers. The entertainment categories with for example full reverse grid 10 lap derbies for Ute’s split start 6 lap sprints for Allcomers (Ruapuna distance equivalents).
3 People
The same people doing the same thing is likely to produce the same result. This is not a criticism of the current people nor a questioning of their endeavours. Sadly there needs to be, demonstrably, a clean out. No doubt some blood will be spent and some wrong choices made but irrespective of who is right or who is wrong there must be a complete review at all levels of the current players and a refresh.
High levels of delegated authority must be granted to additional dedicated resource to drive the new categories in a professional disciplined manner. It is not a time for “good old boys” to have a chin wag. I have not addressed identifying or securing this resource. A prerequisite would be establishing a new steering group, no not a committee.

[HD TR]

:mad:

Whether this has been caused by the review meetings, or what-have-you we may never know, but it is no doubt the beginning of licence-holders money being further squandered.

I suspect we can forget the term "bail out" and go straight to "submersible pump"

I'm not really prepared to keep pumping my licence fees, and a chunk of my entry fees into this, and I'd like to hear how others feel?


Media Statement - MotorSport Promotions Ltd
Wednesday 1 August 2012

MotorSport Promotions Limited, the body charged with the running and management of the MSNZ Championship race series and summer series events has made significant changes, signalling a changing of the guard and a new approach for the company.

Following on from the appointment of new directors and the adoption of a new trading name, the company wishes to advise the resignations of Kerry Cooper and Martin Fine from the positions they previously held. Kerry and Martin will remain available to wrap up the last financial year and assist with the setup of the company for the coming season as required.

As the motorsport community is aware, the company requires some urgent action and this required the implementation of a new, interim, structure. Shareholder representatives have been advised of these changes in advance of this message.

An interim management team lead by David Dovey will take responsibility for the company's operations. The administration functions of the company will be contracted to MSNZ, supervised by Brian Budd. Amanda Tollemache assumes the role of Event Manager. Brian Lawrence will continue in his role of NZV8 Marketing and also extend this to series marketing.

There has been comment that change was not happening quickly enough, however some interim steps were required to establish the correct position and plot a way forward. There has been comment from some quarters that MSNZ should not be involved in the business. However, given the events of the past seasons and the current state of the company we require administrative and if necessary, some financial back up from MSNZ. MSNZ support will strengthen the company for the future and ensure security of the Gold Star titles.

The company faces a number of challenges, but the team now in place have a genuine commitment to ensure that MotorSport New Zealand's Championship Gold Star series remains positive and in good health.

John Fowke
Chairperson
MotorSport Promotions Ltd


Ends

[GeebeeNZ]

I notice they may require some financial backup from MSNZ. This is exactly why the membership feel that MSNZ should not be involved in commercial activities least of all a second rate V8 series. Will they never understand.
Graeme

[Racer Rog]

The President of Motor Sporft New Zealand gave an assurance to a question I put to him at the AGCM, there would be no more monies put into this new company? while I do support MSNZ, and some of the resaults of the press release, are a step in the right direction, I do wonder what has changed? comment Roger H?
Roger

[RogerH]

The President of Motor Sporft New Zealand gave an assurance to a question I put to him at the AGCM, there would be no more monies put into this new company? while I do support MSNZ, and some of the resaults of the press release, are a step in the right direction, I do wonder what has changed? comment Roger H?
Roger

Hi Roger - my understanding is that the comment in the MSP (TMC rebranded) media release about the possible need for MSNZ financial assistance was generated by the less than satisfactory financial position of MSP. However, MSP may have not verified with MSNZ that financial assistance would be available as I agree with you that there was an unambiguous statement at the MSNZ Conference that no more member club's money would go into MSP. I suppose the next question is what happens to MSP if they can't get the financial help they need in order to survive?

[Russ Noble]

For anyone that's interested in the state of SIFF, this announcement just released.


Ace Hire South Island Formula Ford Championship

$30,000 for South Island Formula Ford Championship.

The SIFF Club has completed negotiations with long established Christchurch machinery hire company Ace Hire for naming rights of the SIFF Championship for the next three years at $10,000 per year. That amount is to go into a prize money pool to be distributed at the end of the season.

The SIFF Championship is a low cost single seater formula which, over its 30 plus year history, has been won by many drivers now successful on the international stage. As well as being a training ground for youngsters moving up from karts with their eye on Formula 1, it also has a core of regular competitors who enjoy the close and exciting open wheel racing that this class provides.

The SIFF Championship is divided into 4 classes and $6000 prize money will be allocated over these 4 classes based on points won by each driver. With this concept all drivers will receive prize money, how much, will depend entirely upon their points haul. Additionally $4000 will be paid out to the outright Overall Top 10 placed cars.

The way the prize money is structured is designed to boost the championship, reward the overall winner well and also provide tangible and excellent returns for consistent competitors who compete in all rounds of the series.

The Championship is run over six rounds, two each at Ruapuna, Levels and Teretonga, with points going down to 15th in each class. There are up to 40 eligible cars in the SI that have not raced for some years and it is hoped the generous prize money pool will draw them out, either in the hands of existing owners or maybe with new owners. One of the four classes is a pre93 class and that gives pre93 cars the ability to “double dip” in the points tally for prize money, so even these older and slightly slower cars have the ability to perform well in the prize money stakes. It is thought the prize money pool will also entice some North Island drivers to travel south to compete.

The SIFF Club expects to further strengthen the prize pool by attracting other companies as supporters for the individual rounds of the championship to provide prize money on the day. That round would then be known as “The (Supporters Name) Round of the Ace Hire SIFF Championship”

Ace Hire managing director Russ Noble says “The benefits to Ace Hire from the exposure associated with this long standing premiere South Island single seater championship will be considerable. That exposure can only be beneficial in creating greater awareness of Woolston based Ace Hire and its ideal location with regard to the Christchurch rebuild in the eastern suburbs.”

Ace Hire has a reputation in the building trade for reliable and well maintained equipment, this is a direct result of the experience Russ Noble has gained preparing and building his own race cars, and that same meticulous approach to equipment maintenance ensures that only very reliable gear is always available for hire.

The championship has had a very stable set of rules over the last 30 odd years and the certainty of at least $30,000 prizemoney also over the next three years means competitors can plan their campaigns with a high degree of confidence that there will be no significant unexpected changes in the near future.

[jim short]

Yes I read it and a big thankyou Russ that makes a welcome change to read

[Russ Cunningham]

Russ Noble...........a "fecken" noble fellow. Great stuff Russ...I hope all enthusiasts in Ch.Ch. support your business. Now, all we need in someone in the Nth.Is. to do the same and we might have FF back to where it was in the seventies.
Regards,
Russ Cunningham

[jim short]

Hey any truth in storey Amco is heading back home to England with his Mini to many sh/t cars in NZ who dont care if they dont win I myself dont beleive a word of it????

[Jac Mac]

Good on you Russ, I know we have bounced these ideas around in the past when you visited during your annual southern expeditions to the Teretonga SFOS meets, now we just need OSCA to reorganise itself along these lines, back to the way it was in the 70's...

[worsel]

Great stuff Russ, can't wait to see a full field of FF going through Castrol again!

[Russ Noble]

Thanks for the expressions of support fellas. Paul, that‘d be a fantastic sight through Castrol once again! There are a heap of cars down your way so spread the word. My support of this series is the easy bit, the hard bit, as always, will be to get all the guys with cars onto the grids.

So anyone who knows someone with a FF, give them a bit of encouragement to get it out there.

As we all know, FF is cheap, competitive racing and to be eligible to run in the Ace Hire South Island Formula Ford Championship and pick up the prize money, you need to belong to the SIFF Club, annual membership $75 and register for the Championship, registration fee $50 for the season. Not too onerous one would think……

For club membership and Championship registration contact :-

South Island Formula Ford Club
Ian Bisman
26 Milesbrook Close
Rangiora

Ph 03 3106441 03 3106441
i.biz@xtra.co.nz

At this point it might be worth elaborating on the classes. There is overall of course, and competitors are fighting for $4000 prize money. $1500 for 1st down to $50 for 10th.

SIFF has also historically had the following four Classes and these classes will collectively share the other $6000 prize money based on points gained
.
Class 1 is for Hewland LD 200 trans cars from 1989
Class 2 is for Hewland Mk type trans 1984 – 1989
Class 3 is cars up to 1984
Class pre-93 aligns with the Tier 1 National class

As can be seen, early Class 1 and all Class 2 & 3 cars are eligible also for Class pre-93 points so they get 2 bites at the cherry. Class1 cars of course should get their second bite from the overall prize money stakes. Pretty equitable we think rewarding the overall winner well and the guys in the older cars will do OK too.

A couple of examples based on last years results. Last years Class 1 and overall winner would have received $1986. The Class 2 winner who was also 4th overall and 2nd pre-93 would have received $1147. The Class 3 winner $770. At the other end of the results, the guy in a Class 2 car who finished last overall and only did two rounds would have taken home $301.

It is interesting to note that last year there was only one Class 3 car. There are a heap of points and hence money to be picked up by anyone choosing to run in Class 3, the same, to a slightly lesser extent, applies to Class 2.

Generally we think the prize money structure gives a little bit for everyone and rewards well those that really put in the effort. Now we just need to get them out there….

First round is Levels Nov 11, then Dec 1 & 2 a double round at Teretonga one on the Sat one on the Sun, then Dec 15 Ruapuna.

The Tier 1 national championship is down this way in Jan so the SIFF rounds are the perfect opportunity for serious Tier 1 competitors to bring their cars down early to get some competitive seat time in the month/s immediately prior.

The final two rounds are at Levels and Ruapuna in March.

[Oldfart]

Just to drag this out aagain...
I watched the last 8 or so laps of the NZ Superstockcars racing around Ruapuna this afternoon. Oh sorry Supertourers.
I don't know about anyone else, but I am heartily sick of the crash and bash. There's more on the race tracks than Waikaraka Park!

[Kiwiboss]

WHO care$, let em go!!! a$ thi$ i$ profe$$ional racing it at lea$t created entertainment in an otherwi$e boring race.

Dale M

[Oldfart]

In a way you are right Dale, however if we want to expand the "bloke in the street" into motorsport, they think that there is a need for a panelbeater as a sponsor or more.

[Rod Grimwood]

That lot are just pulling all the money away from the grass roots racing IE Formula Ford, small class saloons, etc and until it stops NZ motorsport will stay in lumbo. There is more than V8s in NZ

Great watching, first race first corner half field in biff, race stuffed straight away, at least in second race they waited.

They all need to take a big look at the way they behave, mind you that is hard with some big ego's. Couple of young fellas look good but hope they don't drop into trough with the others.
Some sponsors would be better off just going to the dunny and flushing it away if they want to shift there money.

Any way back to the classics and the gentlemen.

[jim short]

As I am not one to complain, at the end ,were you lucky eneogh to spot that old white haired gent walking back and forth to get on the camera,bloody egos!!

[ElCoyote]

As I am not one to complain, at the end ,were you lucky eneogh to spot that old white haired gent walking back and forth to get on the camera,bloody egos!!

Gent? I think not!!

[CUSTAXIE50]

I know it has been said to me i have to be nice here,yes i did see that gent he comes from the same place as len brown is that right,what do they call that place again ---auckland big little city is that right.

[jim short]

I know it has been said to me i have to be nice here,yes i did see that gent he comes from the same place as len brown is that right,what do they call that place again ---auckland big little city is that right.

JAFAS

[CUSTAXIE50]

Is that all jim thats not like you thats a bit short for you, there was a lot of talk about this gent sometime back ,about him and nzv8s how did that turn out.

[jim short]

Is that all jim thats not like you thats a bit short for you, there was a lot of talk about this gent sometime back ,about him and nzv8s how did that turn out.

My Mum said if you cant say something nice say nothing

[ERC]

There are times I wish I knew what some of these posts were about - and what they have to do with the thread subject.

[CUSTAXIE50]

just had a look again at what i put up i see where you are coming from jim ,did not look at it the way you have so shall we put that to one side .what about this gent and nzv8s how did that turn out.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Look at it this way erc, maybe there are some who think this old white haired gent had a lot to do with the state of nz motorsport today, telling nz what we need not what we want maybe you could look at it this way.

[ERC]

That would be fine if I knew who you are talking about, but I don't, hence my comment. The same would presumably apply to everyone else who didn't see what you saw. I haven't seen the TV coverage that I presume you are referring to.

[Rod Grimwood]

I think he appeared in the herald in an article very recently about taking the circus overseas, they would fit in with all the other bang ups and fights going on in the region.

[CUSTAXIE50]

right erc i will see if i can,it was after the last race for the supertourers at ruapuna that was on tv3 on sunday,the reporter was talking to a driver who had raced in that last race for the year for supertourers.There was this gent who was in the back ground walking back and forward in and out of the view of the reporter and the driver he was talking too,as jim said that old white haired gent walking back and forth to get on camera .my view is that gent was mark petch the boss of supertourers ,is he not the gent who was fighting with the ones who run nzv8s it was all over tv some time back ,so like i said before there may be a lot out there who think this gent had alot to do with the state of nz motorsport ,and the shit that is going down today and you must understand this is only my view at what i see and hear about this sport today.

[ERC]

Thank you for that clarification. I think you'll find that most "one man bands" can have a postive and a negative effect. I always hark back to the Issigonis comment (I think it was his) - "A camel is a thoroughbred horse designed by a committee."

A dictatorship is fine as long as the dictator gets it right and doesn't polarise people too much. However, there are very few of those.

By their nature, these 'leaders' or 'innovators' can be difficult to deal with as they generally only see things through their own eyes and sometimes, they poke their noses into areas they shouldn't. Whatever your opinion, ST got off the ground, when many said it wouldn't.

The real test is which classes survive 3, 5 or 10 years or more. Motorsport is littered with classes that have appeared and disappeared and all that means is that there must be 100's of ex race cars sitting in sheds, unused, which augurs well for the future of classic racing, where many cars will be able to run - just as long as people don't get too hung up on the level playing field or purity concepts and like the Hulme Festival, fill the grids with a variety of cars, just for our entertainment.

[CUSTAXIE50]

I did see jim richards on tv at puke he was asked about his view on this class,from what he had to say its all a bit of a joke and is going no where.

[Russ Cunningham]

I did see jim richards on tv at puke he was asked about his view on this class,from what he had to say its all a bit of a joke and is going no where.

CUSTAXIE50,

This entire thread has become somewhat of a joke but they do say that a sense of humour, keeps one going. But going where? the toilet?

[CUSTAXIE50]

How about your view on the state of nz motorsport russ.

[Russ Cunningham]

How about your view on the state of nz motorsport russ.

Now that you ask! The toilet is in my opinion where NZ motor sport is right now. "Money motor sport" - even at historic level. A bloody good pastime ruined by self important/self interested pricks.

[ERC]

Would you care to elaborate where you believe Historic motorsport is in a mess?

It certainly isn't "Money motorsport" at our level, even though a small group are indeed moneyed, but that doesn't mean they will get any more points than the guy with a $5,000 MG. The only meeting that I can think of locally where money/time is an issue for some, is the Hulme Festival, but if you want a top class international event in NZ, of course it is going to be a bit more expensive than a clubbie, but it is not over the top.

[jim short]

Is that all jim thats not like you thats a bit short for you, there was a lot of talk about this gent sometime back ,about him and nzv8s how did that turn out.

I have no wish to see us go down the ten tens road but its hard to see how to run a ST that cost this past yr.$400,000 is cheeper than Martin{grandson} who pays $20,000 per race x 6=$120,000 a yr .The white haired man on tv stated there motors will do 3 yrs with out touching{perhaps he ment 3 motors a yr}ect

[CUSTAXIE50]

So your grandson pays all that out to race in a st for what, $400,000 to make up a st my view is nz does not have to go down that road .what would it cost to being back sports sedans,tranzam and cars like that there must be a lot of cars like that out there just sitting around .Thats the racing most would like to see out there racing again is this right or not ,Allso have a look at some of the new central muscle cars that will be racing next year that class is going somewhere ,as JR said st are going no where and he may be right.

[jim short]

So your grandson pays all that out to race in a st for what, $400,000 to make up a st my view is nz does not have to go down that road .what would it cost to being back sports sedans,tranzam and cars like that there must be a lot of cars like that out there just sitting around .Thats the racing most would like to see out there racing again is this right or not ,Allso have a look at some of the new central muscle cars that will be racing next year that class is going somewhere ,as JR said st are going no where and he may be right.

What planet are you on,or has the illness returned?? where did I say Martin spent $400,000???

[CUSTAXIE50]

why dont you read what i put down again let me help you with this jim ,did you not say my grandson pays $20,000 per race--$120,000 a year is that right. so where did i say he spent $400,000 jim on a st ,sometimes jim you can be one dick head and know all.

[crunch]

why dont you read what i put down again let me help you with this jim ,did you not say my grandson pays $20,000 per race--$120,000 a year is that right. so where did i say he spent $400,000 jim on a st ,sometimes jim you can be one dick head and know all.

Perhaps some full stops might help me understand the point you are trying to make?

[ERC]

Don't worry Crunch. There are one or two posters on here where it is far too difficult to try and work out exactly what is being said. If you try too hard, your brain hurts, so it is far easier to overlook those, as the chances are, you won't get their intended message anyway!

It is a bit of a worry, as I sometimes wonder if they actually read what they have written.

[CUSTAXIE50]

before you shit on what we put up here have a look at what you have just put up ,and you must understand we can not all be like you a bright and shining pin from the north shore.

[Steve Holmes]

Thread closed!