Safety Issues

[Grant Ellwood]

Hopefully we can have plenty of positive discussion regarding how we can race our vehicles in period styling while taking advantage of improved safety features. For example, I'm looking for some sort of containment system to stop my legs flailing about in a rollover (for a saloon). I have permanent knee damage from crashing a Begg at Baypark years ago my legs hit the dash hoop very hard on the way over the bank. I was wearing a 6 point harness but that doesn't stop your pins flailing around!
Also there are medical issues for many of us as we slide into our sunshine years, I'm taking blood pressure meds and am interested to see some discussion on this subject. I knew a driver who used to stop taking his meds a few days before an event because they affected his concentration, then had a heart attack during a race.
Plenty to discuss especially continuing the rollbar and helmet subjects...

[Neville Milne]

An excellent subject for discussion.....especially as regards protetctive wear, but also as regards vehicle restoration and prep.
And of course..a big issue is that of expenses.........it IS costly to outfit oneself with appropriate ( approved) flame retardent coverings, a suitable skid-lid and assorted restraint devices.......not hundreds of $$ any-more..more like thousands of $$$.
What about vehicle hardware too......roll bars or cages CAN make an historic car look pretty woeful. Are they better than a life or a life spent disabled or in pain?
Ball-joints, tie-rod ends, axle studs ( lug-nuts ) and the like...all are critical to the safety of the competitor, but most importantly, they are equally critical to the safety of OTHER competitors.....and so we start down the slippery slope of historical (in)accuracy...do we 'improve' known weak-points or items that are known to be possible safety issues?...or do we trundle around in semi-'demonstration' mode?
My own dilemma concerns an early 60's British sports-car..mass -produced..and originally run at SCCA meetings; pro-rallied and then auto-crossed. The currently available BHP, is almost 75% greater than when it left the dealer's yard...so one might imagine that all of the items mentioned above, should be replaced as a matter of course..........and they have been. HOWEVER...when acquiring replacement suspension parts...for a car that's been out of production for almost 45years....how can one determine where they were made and to what standard?
It's all a bit of a challenge...bearing in mind that one has to take care of one's own safety and that of one's fellow competitors
Neville MILNE

[AMCO72]

Well there you go, I didn't get shot down after all!!! Lateral thinking is a great thing, and what started as an innocent comment on what 'looks right' has blossomed into a full blown discussion on safety at motoracing. Not only ours, the drivers, but everyone else who attends these meetings, where you 'ARE AT YOUR OWN RISK'. Maybe thats the attraction, risk. Life is so sanitised as Amerikiwi said, that a bit of adrenaline pumping is what we need. Now that this subject has expanded somewhat, I need to have a bit of a think, and one aspect of the sport is the medical side, of which I have had some issues, as regular readers will know. Have enjoyed all the comment so far, so stay tuned, there is more to come from everyone I'm sure.

[Oldfart]

Steve, are you reading this one? Can the discussion from Leadfoot topic which is more relevant here be moved over? Permission for mine is hereby given.
A few years back I tried to get Dunlop blue overalls remade. I even had fabric lined up, approval from Dunlop (they even supplied the appropriate artwork) but I couldn't find a person to do the short runs at a fair price. Then again when did overalls become a required item?
Perhaps if you run a 1930s Alfa you should be wearing a sleeveless pullover, or a flat hat on backwards in your Bugatti a la PhiPhi? Or if you run a Ford 10 white overalls, pudding basin and Kaydee sandals as in one of the pictures from Tahunanui a while back? (Oh and have a fag while you refuel, same photo)

[markec]

The last comments made in the "Leadfoot" thread is regarding the height of roll bars, my understanding was that they had to be 50mm above the helmet, in a line between the top of the rear bar and the top of the front hoop, normally situated about the front suspension pickup points.

[RogerH]

With rollbars in an historic car there is the issue of where to anchor them in a chassis that was never made to accommodate rollbars. A rollbar is only as good as it's weakest point.
In one of my cars (1960 single seater) the chassis is small diameter space frame tubing. We have looked to put a rollbar in but where it would be anchored is much smaller tubing than the rollbar itself - in a rollover the rollbar would punch through the chassis tubes.
The other issue is rollbar stays. In my car they can't go to the rear as the only thing they could anchor to is the fuel tank! A forward stay would likewise anchor onto a small diameter chassis tube.
I would also need to cut holes in the original alloy body to fit a rollbar which would destroy the originality of the car.
The conclusion was to either park the car and not use it or take the risk and hope nothing happens.

[Dave Silcock]

Go to historicparts.co.uk for your Dunlop overalls

[AMCO72]

Roger, I think your attitude of....'hope nothing happens' is the most sensible and is probably how we all feel. Pretty soon we will be required to put frames on our cars that look like the sort of thing you would find on a modified speedway machine. I have always though that airfield race-tracks encouraged sloppy driving,because there were large run-off areas before something solid was encountered. Street racing on the other-hand was the opposite, with solid walls very close to the action. So surely we drive/race with that in mind and....... 'hope nothing happens'.......don't we??????

[rogered]

With rollbars in an historic car there is the issue of where to anchor them in a chassis that was never made to accommodate rollbars. A rollbar is only as good as it's weakest point.
In one of my cars (1960 single seater) the chassis is small diameter space frame tubing. We have looked to put a rollbar in but where it would be anchored is much smaller tubing than the rollbar itself - in a rollover the rollbar would punch through the chassis tubes.
The other issue is rollbar stays. In my car they can't go to the rear as the only thing they could anchor to is the fuel tank! A forward stay would likewise anchor onto a small diameter chassis tube.
I would also need to cut holes in the original alloy body to fit a rollbar which would destroy the originality of the car.
The conclusion was to either park the car and not use it or take the risk and hope nothing happens.


You can now argue fairly strongly that the use of seatbelts would add to the chances of injury.

[RogerH]

You can now argue fairly strongly that the use of seatbelts would add to the chances of injury.

A good point and a dilemma for the driver.

MSNZ regulations state that for Sch K cars of pre 1960 era the use of a safety harness is not mandatory but recommended.

With the earlier single seaters (1940/50s) I wear a lap belt to stop being tossed around. In the 1960 single seater without a rollbar I wear a five point belt - when you think about it, it doesn't make a lot of sense ................

7151

[Howard Wood]

What a fabulous subject!

For me, the rollcage question is obvious for saloons. Why would you not incorporate a modern roll cage with its attendant safety and torsional stiffness benefits? The cage does not detract from the visual lines of the car and the strength of a 40 odd year old shell will have become seriously compromised. Safely within my car for the period look I choose to wear an open face helmet.

My next project, rebuilding the Bob Wraight Chrysler beach racer from the late '20s, is at the other extreme. The fabric covered wooden bodywork offers no protection at all either from a roll over or side impact and short of a full "tractor safety frame" bolted outside of the chassis and body any protection would be useless and out of the question. The answer? Probably to treat driving it (complete with external contracting brakes) with some respect. I suspect the experience will be more like riding a motorbike and when (if ever) I finish it the helmet will definitely be full face.

Two extreme examples I know, but it seems there is no universal rule which can be applied retrospectively to bring period cars up to current safety specs.

[Michael Clark]

I recall seeing a full face helmet painted in such a way that one had to take a second look to see what was going on - the line of an open faced helmet was followed, and a spotted scarf to cover the 'mouth' was incorporated into the design.

It was pretty darn good.

[Howard Wood]

Michael,

With a Ray Harrou leather cap and goggles design on your helmet the transformation from Cossle 30F to Marmon Wasp is complete.

[Michael Clark]

32F

[Jac Mac]

I remember seeing a TV item of Peter Brock at the wheel of the Daytona Coupe he drove in the Aussie Targa events & thought at the time if he ever went sideways into something solid he would get a fair clout on the side of the helmet due to the proximity of the main roll cage hoop, many saloons need some more thought in this area, the TVR is a similar along with a couple of GT40 replicas I have looked at, in some cases they would be safer without the cage, the Hans device is responsible for a lot of the side by side collisions that lead to some of the high speed excursions we see a lot of today, drivers simply cannot or wont look in the mirrors due to the restricted movement.

[PaulieG]

I am having the same issue at the moment with the Lotus 20, it has a roll hoop, but it is nowhere near strong enouch to survive a serious roll over, as the diameter is about the same as spaghetti! What we will try and do is a double hoop over and following the contour of the original, with a rear wards stay. I have to say that while I understand that to some safety is of the utmost, but some of the modifications to roll hoops can ruin the look of a car, saying that,on youtube,(and maybe posted on here),the Lotus 18 rollover at Philip Island shows a strong case for arm restraints and roll over protection!check it out : http://youtu.be/GWPESLsUfb8

[Wal Will]

A few years apart, but with an open face helmet and no roll protection I rolled over a bank - and was only stopped from a long drop by a barbed wire fence (unfortunately some of it being under my chin). It is clear by the damage to the megaphone at the back, and the bodywork at the front that it landed upside down at some point of the accident. A bit the worse for wear I was still smiling.
When I see the car again it has grown some roll protection. It makes the car look weird to my eye, but I must confess that I would have been a bit better off (seat belt included) in the same scenario.
I said earlier that I felt I drove faster with roll protection, helmet, and belts on - and I think that that is just common sense kicking in. I drive a lot more agressively in my Star Car with a full cage and enclosed wheels, than I do in a Formula Ford - with its open wheels and potential to be catapulted.
The head of Ford at the time they were being forced against their will to fit seat belts as standard equipment, that yes it would reduce injury for a while, but then people would start to feel 'immune' and start taking more risks than they did 'before belts' and the rate would then rise again. Nowdays cars get 'written off' because of Air Bag issues?

[Wal Will]

I saw one painted to look like a man with a bald head Michael - and it made you look twice.

I recall seeing a full face helmet painted in such a way that one had to take a second look to see what was going on - the line of an open faced helmet was followed, and a spotted scarf to cover the 'mouth' was incorporated into the design.

It was pretty darn good.

[Michael Clark]

I remember!

[GeebeeNZ]

I concur with RogerH's comments about rollbars. A few years ago I fitted a rollbar to a Mallock Sports Car. Most of the Motorsport manual is all about fitting a rollbar to a sedan with a full floor, it doesnt offer a lot of help to someone who is trying to fit a rollbar to a car made out of something resembling 3/4 inch furniture tubing. Needless to say we did it but it wasnt easy.
Getting back to the pre 1945 cars that will be running at Hampton Downs on April 14th there is a school of thought that stiffening up the chassis of such cars by fitting rollbars greatly affects their handling characteristics as they were designed to flex. Any comments.

[GeebeeNZ]

The cost of safety is a relative thing. When told that Vintage racers on a circuit had to wear fireproof underwear or double layer fire retardant overalls many vintage racers managed to find fireproof undergarments at a Army Surplus store much cheaper than Nomex so safety isnt always expensive.

[conrod]

Getting back to the pre 1945 cars that will be running at Hampton Downs on April 14th there is a school of thought that stiffening up the chassis of such cars by fitting rollbars greatly affects their handling characteristics as they were designed to flex. Any comments.

While I am certainly not old enough to understand what the engineers might have been thinking on these pre 1945 cars, my guess would be that chassis flex was not something that was actually DESIGNED into these these cars, but rather just a by-product of the way they were built. Or perhaps I am wrong, and the engineers/constructors thought a bit of flex was good? Sure they will handle differently if made stiffer, but like all things, when a change is made (in this case torsional stiffness) to work properly they would need setting up again with different spring rates, geometry etc.

[AMCO72]

Of course the word 'handling' when referring to old cars is relative. A better term is 'road-holding'. Adjustment of beam axles, front and back was very limited, and in fact as Bob Homewood will tell you, to get better road-holding, you plonked on a set of BIG tyres and hoped for the best. All this did in most cases was to increase the unsprung weight, and often made the situation worse. I dont think the designers of old chassis, built in flexibility, it just happened, because of the way chassis rails etc were put together, and coachbuilders had to mount their bodies in such a way as to minimise the flex being transmitted to the body, which in the early days had a wooden frame. Was only when the likes of Citroen's L15 came along, and perhaps others in the USA, that body ridgidity became possible. So I'm not sure that roll-frames on beam-axle cars does make a big difference to the road-holding, and in almost all cases the tyre grip will be the limiting factor as to how a car 'holds the road', so that if big tyres are fitted the car, instead of the car getting itself into nice controlable slides, or drifts, it just starts to act all cranky and completey destroys what little 'road-holding' it had. I tried a similar experiment on my 1935 Jaguar SS1 by fitting modern larger section tyres with much more grip, and it just destroyed the way the car 'handled' when pushed. When you watch the VCC boys racing their old Austins etc that are sliding all over the place you wonder why they dont fit bigger tyres. I suspect they have tried, and it doesn't work.

[Howard Wood]

Conrad, you could also fit a sequential 'box to your lovely M3 and improve your lap times in the process but that isn't going to happen, right!
Gerald is absolutely right, with very old cars, change one thing, eg fit stickier tyres, and no only will the "improvement" be marginal at best but there can be an unplanned flow on effect such as wire spokes breaking.

Which brings us back to the topic, any safety or technology improvements to old cars not only have to be in keeping with the looks and spirit of the car but also actually increase the safety levels not detract from them..

[AMCO72]

Howard, I had forgotten the wire-wheel issue. Any vigorous cornering would almost certainly end up with buckled wheels, especially if you lightly brushed the curb, and this was made worse by the sticky-ish tyres. I think that with technology today we have an advantage over the old days......better wheel bearings, crack testing components, much better machining etc, and I would like to think that a present day restorer of a car being used in VCC events and others, would take advantages of all the improvements available. But as someone pointed out, the origin of some of these parts is dodgy to say the least, but if that is all that is available, your stuck. We had a CV joint, of unbranded manufacture, seize on the Mini during the Festival....down the front straight at 130+ MPH......a very unpleasant and dangerous happening. Fortunately there was no one else around me, as the car was heading for the wall, and there could have been a nasty pile-up. We now use good second hand CV's for 1100's made in Canada, and I feel much happier, and we also use a very special industrial grease, far better than the crap that comes with a new kit. As is being pointed out by others, we not only have to ensure our own safety, but also the safety of other competitors, and I hope we are all thinking the same thing, as things can go horribly wrong in a fraction of a second. Sometimes I think that the best safety precaution that we can employ is 'less lead in the right foot!!!!!

[RogerH]

The wire wheel issue does cause problems. The 1959 Taraschi FJ still runs it's original Borrani wire wheels (4" wide on the rear and 3.5" wide on the front). The chassis and suspension is all original. However, the effect of running the designated historic crossply tyres (Dunlop L CR65) is enough to result in broken rear spokes - for some reason usually after running at Taupo. The CR65 is not a sticky tyre by a long stretch but it is evidently more grippy than the period tyres and the extra grip results in broken spokes.

[AMCO72]

Jac Mac had some interesting things to say about race-car safety that he noticed in his capacity as scrutineer. Some very dodgy engineering practices way back then. Shouldn't happen nowadays, but you never know. Perhaps Jac Mac can refresh our memories and expand. The original comments were back in Yards & Yarns, page 8, about thread No 148, and concerns wheels, and the strength, or lack of it , in them.

[markec]

http://devour.com/video/vintage-race-car-crashes/. Our now PC society seems to get its knickers in a knot when the boys go out and do something enjoyable, but having said that, how many drivers grow horns when they leave the dummy grid and all rational thoughts are left in the pits.Whether we like itt or not there have to be regulations regarding safety and to adapt 1 set of rules to cover all types of car that were built over a 80 year period is not going to find favour with every body, common sense should prevail but it won't.
The link to earlier accidents shows a need for some control.

[conrod]

Conrad, you could also fit a sequential 'box to your lovely M3 and improve your lap times in the process but that isn't going to happen, right!


funny you mention that!... I did have a nice Holinger sequential box from my last M3, and sold it and bought the correct Holinger H pattern box for this car, just for originalities sake:)........

[AMCO72]

Yes markec, we have to ADAPT one set of rules, rather than ADOPT one set of rules. To make any sense at all, rules for the older cars, and here lets say pre61 as that is a class of its own, are necessarily different, or parts of it, from rules for later cars. Most of the components will be similar or the same, but things we have been discussing, roll-frames etc will be different. Would be nice to think common sense will prevail, but common sense today is increasingly absent from discussion. Would be nice to think that we on this forum could put forward some sensible ideas, thrash it around, then have it adopted, instead of having some little clerk somewhere making a decision based on some knee-jerk reaction to an 'incident'.

[AMCO72]

Having said that, lots of things changed for the better after the LeMans crash in 1955, as they did in the Paris-Madrid half a century before. In the LeMans case, drivers reactions were as quick as humanely possible. In the matter of driver reaction there are other considerations than the actual time taken to move a foot off the throttle and apply the brake. One is the time it takes for the brain to appreciate the situation, the primary reaction, which starts the secondary. At LeMans in front of the pits that evening, Hawthorne, Fangio, and Levegh were covering the ground at around 200 ft per second, and even virtually instantaneous action can do very little about that, even if the instinctive reaction is correct. Reaction must not only be swift, it must be right. So if these guys couldn't get it right, what hope is there for a bunch of geriatric drivers like us....well a lot of us. So safety on the track not only involves the cars and their preparation, but also the drivers and their fitness, or otherwise ,to act and react in a proper and correct manner. Did I remember to take my heart pills this morning, or in the excitement of anticipating some thrilling competition, forget them? More on medical matters soon!!!!

[Trevor Sheffield]

Food for thought and debate. ---

I enjoyed motor racing when it was for real, e.g. First over the line was the winner and if you did not remain on a defined circuit it was accepted that you were very likely to hit something. When it became sanitised I went sailing. I had a second attempt at gaining satisfaction from what was once sport. I retired for good, laughing.

My great grand child recently gained fourth place racing a motorcycle and after a spill and getting back into the race. He is Four years old and I am sure he would be prevented from climbing anything while at kindergarten. LOL

Enjoy, Trevor.

[Oldfart]

[QUOTE=AMCO72;12006, When you watch the VCC boys racing their old Austins etc that are sliding all over the place you wonder why they dont fit bigger tyres. I suspect they have tried, and it doesn't work.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps because that is part of the fun? If you are "sliding all over the place" you have passed the limit of adhesion, even if it is only at 50mph (note the mph, not km/hr) that's how fast you can go!
The moderns can slide and skid too, but they don't. Apart from drifters and SVG on a spectacular victory lap.

[markec]

In the latest "Classic Driver" magazine there is a photo I had not seen before of Red Dawson's huge prang in the Monza, the car looks as though it is 6 meters off the ground and we all know what the result was.The beginning of the end for Red, so if safety measures are put into place that will limit the likely hood of that sort of incident happening again, it must be a good thing.

[AMCO72]

And indeed oldfart, that IS part of the fun. As I said, the old SS Jag, which quite frankly had hopeless road holding at the best of times, turned itself into a nasty piece of goods when shod with 'good' tyres. I used to have a whole heap of fun at Baypark with the old girl, especially round the big sweeper, tyres howling in protest, in my efforts to keep up with people. It is reported in one of the early TACCOC magazines, that I was visibly gaining on a TR6!!!! All I can say in my defence is that the TR6 driver couldn't have been trying very hard. Here again speeds are relatively slow, certainly compared to how the Mini would have gone round there. It is actually possible, I think, to have MORE fun at slower speeds, like the Chassis Racers. Some time back I wrote about Rowan Atkinson driving a Fergie tractor at 20 mph across a paddock with sheep as mobile chicanes. Slow, yes, but what fun can be had at 20 mph. If you are on the track with fast cars, you want to be fast as well, whereas if there are slowish cars round you, you tend to fall into the prevailing pace, and the last thing you are thinking about is roll-over protection and race harnesses. Medical safety coming up.

[AMCO72]

OK, it's Good Friday......hot-cross buns and other 'healthy' things to eat, so perhaps a discussion on personal health as it affects motoracing might be in order. I'm not sure when a medical becomes compulsory, if in fact it ever does, but at the moment, answers to certain questions on the application form trigger a red alert at MSNZ HQ and the interogation starts. The medical itself is a very comprehensive document and covers just about every malady known to man, and it's aim is to satisfy the MSNZ doctor that you are fit and able to conduct a race car at racing speeds. Your personal GP also has a say, but so long as you have a regular driving licence, he is unlikely to give you a bad report. If you have been going to the same GP for number of years, 40 in my case, he will have a pretty good idea of you general state of health, and this is where I start to have issues with MSNZ. Their official Doctor has never seen you, and knows nothing about you apart from the answers you and your GP have provided on the form, and this is the only criteria he uses to give you a tick or not. Frankly I dont think MSNZ should have any say in a medical, but I guess there could be some Doctors who would give you a favourable report with a little bit of persuasion, though it is difficult to fake an ECG. I have seen enough fat, sweaty bodies emerging from the Nomex to make me a little concerned as to the fitness of the driver. Unlike when travelling on the open road, where no medical is necessary, we on the track are all travelling in the same direction, concentrating very hard, and are strapped in like fighter pilots, and in the event of a medical incident, will, we hope, just drift into the Armco like Denny at Bathurst. Unfortunately medical incidents can rear their ugly head without warning and this inspite of examinations. I dont think I will be going for another one, after the dramas which you read about on Y & Y, after my last one......I think my blood pressure hit 200/100 during the interminable wait for the document that said I was OK to drive. Probably, sensibly, no one over 70 should be driving a race car; we should all retire gracefully and become flag marshals instead, and maybe get a spot of knitting in between races!!!!

[Grant Ellwood]

Perhaps because that is part of the fun? If you are "sliding all over the place" you have passed the limit of adhesion, even if it is only at 50mph (note the mph, not km/hr) that's how fast you can go!
The moderns can slide and skid too, but they don't. Apart from drifters and SVG on a spectacular victory lap.

Just received the latest issue of Victory Lane (US vintage racing mag) and there is an article about vintage tyres by Phil Lamont, a race tire distributor. He reports that his company does not offer super soft compounds for vintage racing (unlike some other suppliers) preferring to stick (pardon the pun) to harder Dunlop 204 compounds. To quote Phil - "in most cases they are not slower, they are often more driftable and allow the car to corner in the manner it was designed to do". He also opines that the softer tires "can stress older suspension pieces and designs".

[Horizon]

Hopefully we can have plenty of positive discussion regarding how we can race our vehicles in period styling while taking advantage of improved safety features. For example, I'm looking for some sort of containment system to stop my legs flailing about in a rollover (for a saloon). I have permanent knee damage from crashing a Begg at Baypark years ago my legs hit the dash hoop very hard on the way over the bank. I was wearing a 6 point harness but that doesn't stop your pins flailing around!
Also there are medical issues for many of us as we slide into our sunshine years, I'm taking blood pressure meds and am interested to see some discussion on this subject. I knew a driver who used to stop taking his meds a few days before an event because they affected his concentration, then had a heart attack during a race.
Plenty to discuss especially continuing the rollbar and helmet subjects...
Amerikiwi :)
Take a look at a Sprint or a midget car. There are Knee Guards to protect your knees/pins from banging away at the steering box. Simple and works well. Good luck with your quest:o

[AMCO72]

And there Amerikiwi you have it in a nut-shell.......'in most cases they are not slower, they are often more driftable, and ALLOW THE CAR TO CORNER IN THE MANNER IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO. With the SS on the 'better' tyres, it was neither fish nor fowl. It wanted to grip but couldn't, or made a half-arsed attempt at doing so, and every time the rear stepped out, once it let go, it was all over, rather than being in a nice controlable speedway type drift. Will be watching the boys at the Roycroft festival next weekend with renewed interest.

[markec]

Gerald, you tell Kenny he's past it and should retire, I agree that some of the bodies that are peeled out of their Nomex cover's are less than healthy looking, but are probably within the medical requirements. I like you take medication for a couple of disorders, including blood pressure and know I am now longer fit, but in my case my length precludes me from fitting into a race car so that issue has never arisen.Mental health is an issue that is not covered within the competition licensing medical, perhaps it should be.

[AMCO72]

Actually markec, mental health is part of the question and answer on the medical examination form. It is the first question in a list of disorders and you are required to answer yes or no.......[a] have you ever had, or do you now have any of the following.....Nervous breakdown, mental disease or disorder? So one has to ask, who would say yes to that!!!! And a bit later...[g] Dizziness, fainting spells, epilepsy, fits or black-outs? It's my guess that if the answer to any of those was YES, then it's all over.....back to the knitting!!! Who would have thought that a discussion on race-car safety would have touched on so many issues.

[Wal Will]

I always thought you had to be mad to go motor racing!

[bob homewood]

Its optional Wal ,but as time moves on I'm sure it helps

[AMCO72]

markec, I'm certainly no Kenny, and if he still enjoys the game and passes his medical, I suppose that is alright. The fact of the matter is though, that the older we get the more likely we are to have a medical incident. Maybe, just maybe, his accident at Manfield was a warning. In my case, while I enjoy racing around in the Mini, it is not really my thing, and to be honest, I'm pretty bloody slow. On any race-track in NZ, Angus is at least 4 seconds a lap, in the same car, quicker than me, so that should tell you something......I'm past it!! I would be much better getting a pre61 saloon, and 'race' in oldfarts proposed class.......driving the cars 'vigorously' I think is how he put it, slipping and sliding all over the place. Sounds like fun to me, but I still need a medical.

[markec]

The other issue which has been addressed to a degree but it seems that competitors are getting around it is, the requirement to have competed in 4 other meetings before being eligible for a Scope entry.Scope is primarily an invitation meeting so they have some control, but under normal circumstances competitors only have to have a competition license, a vehicle with enough money to run it and they are away.
On our open highways come holiday time we have the roads full of drivers who have not driven much over 50kms all year and are let loose to travel distances they only do once a year at speeds they are unaccustomed to.Hence lack of concentration, speed,road conditions are foreign to them and so there are mishaps.
It would seem this is the case with some classes of motor racing, classics being one of them. Late middle aged males who can now afford to take to the circuit,who don't do their own building ,maintenance but are basically cheque book racers who's perceptions of the efforts that go into rebuilding damaged cars only goes as far as their bank balance and is not really relative to anything like reality.
These are other area's where the modern safety direction is needed to progress to, you can't legislate against idiocy.

[AMCO72]

I didn't know that was requirement of Skope entry. Do you mean 4 meetings in total, or 4 meetings within a certain time frame? You might only do one meeting a year, say the Skope, which is not much better than none at all. And cheque book racers......yes well, that is now par for the course. We all get a certain amount of work done by professionals, as there would be few of us capable of tackling every job in a rebuild. I am lucky in that respect for I have my 'man' to do most stuff for me. Quite often he pays the bill as well, so I am really fortunate!!!! Dodgy repairs etc don't always show up at scrutineering, and Jac Mac has discovered 'things' that have escaped the eagle eye of previous scrutiny. As I said, I would hope that we put some value on our own skins and did things properly, but I have seen repairs done at meetings after crashes that would not stand too much inspection, and safety is compromised.

[Grant Ellwood]

Gerald, you tell Kenny he's past it and should retire, I agree that some of the bodies that are peeled out of their Nomex cover's are less than healthy looking, but are probably within the medical requirements. I like you take medication for a couple of disorders, including blood pressure and know I am now longer fit, but in my case my length precludes me from fitting into a race car so that issue has never arisen.Mental health is an issue that is not covered within the competition licensing medical, perhaps it should be.

Hopefully Kenny wil be racing for many years ahead, the crash at Manfield could have happened to any pro.
He is the inspiration for all of us old boys (and girls).

[Dave Silcock]

markec, I'm certainly no Kenny, and if he still enjoys the game and passes his medical, I suppose that is alright. The fact of the matter is though, that the older we get the more likely we are to have a medical incident. Maybe, just maybe, his accident at Manfield was a warning. In my case, while I enjoy racing around in the Mini, it is not really my thing, and to be honest, I'm pretty bloody slow. On any race-track in NZ, Angus is at least 4 seconds a lap, in the same car, quicker than me, so that should tell you something......I'm past it!! I would be much better getting a pre61 saloon, and 'race' in oldfarts proposed class.......driving the cars 'vigorously' I think is how he put it, slipping and sliding all over the place. Sounds like fun to me, but I still need a medical.

Well Amco I always thought we did this for fun,I know I have in my stop start involvement with motor sport [took nearly a decade off to race classic bikes]. It could be that you are enjoying the Mini more than Angus, so whats wrong with your lap times?

[Dave Silcock]

A good point and a dilemma for the driver.

MSNZ regulations state that for Sch K cars of pre 1960 era the use of a safety harness is not mandatory but recommended.

With the earlier single seaters (1940/50s) I wear a lap belt to stop being tossed around. In the 1960 single seater without a rollbar I wear a five point belt - when you think about it, it doesn't make a lot of sense ................

7151

There seems too much emphasis on the rollover accident, you can have plenty of health threatening incidents with out a roll over. Which is why I choose to wear seat belts in my Cooper Vincent. I was driving a Cooper Bristol at Wigram once when I was hit with a fair amount of force in the left rear wheel while exiting the hair pin. I was later shown a photo of the incident and to my surprise both arms where flung above my head and my whole upper body was out of the car and my helmet almost scraping the track. Rollbar or not I'd still have belts.

[Rod Grimwood]

Think Dave hit it on the head AMCO, are you enjoying what you are doing, and who cares about your times. Looked like a smile on your face last time i saw you in the Mini, so surely thats all that matters. I hope to be back one day so we can give each other a wave at the back as we strive for that position.
Yep definately belts.

[markec]

The Scope requirement is for 4 race meetings within the past 12 months.

[AMCO72]

I seem to remember some years ago that competitors who were new to the game, or only competed at a few events, had a series of white strips on the rear of the car to warn other competitors that the guy in front MAY do something unusual, so be on your guard. Haven't seen these for years; was the practice discontinued. I suppose the idea behind it was a safety thing, but don't remember it being very effective. So to qualify for a Skope meeting, you would have had to have been fairly active in the previous 12 months, so that would rule me out.

[AMCO72]

Seeing as we have touched on the age thing here with Kenny, we might as well expand on it, as it definately applies to me, and I'm sure it could be a safety issue. I dont know the ages of the drivers around me, but those who have been paying attention on this forum will know that I am 73. Now, I ask you, truthfully, do you really want to be racing, half a hairs breadth away from me, knowing that because of my advancing years, I could have a medical incident? Or, that because I am old,YES OLD, and am a bit cautious, and as Angus is fond of saying, 'wobbling all over the track'. The Guys behind me must feel like giving me a serve up the arse so they can get on with the business of racing. Perhaps we can have a class of 70+ racers, then we can all wobble all over the track together. No seriously, ours is a dangerous sport, lets not make any bones about that, and things go wrong with the most alert minds behind the wheel. Here I am, sitting on the starting line, right foot shaking, left leg getting cramp, squinting through my bifocals to see the lights, having a good cough from all the fumes around me, and sitting in a sauna, and I am expected to go out and do battle with all these hot-shots around me. You tell me that's OK.

[Grant Ellwood]

Obviously revolves around how good your faculties are, some of us age better than others (I'm in the others).
Paul Newman was darn quick into his 80s and Elliot Forbes Robinson still competes at pro level in US road racing at 69. A lot of guys here don't start any sort of racing until they retire, some prefer to take their racing quietly in the stricter vintage series, others jump into single seater classes with the young guns. Oh and I just remembered Brian Redman, just fantastic to watch in action.
He told me he was kicked out of a vintage race meet for going too quick so he went and started his own series which is very popular with drivers who want to race a bit harder than most organisations allow.

[Carlo]

Here I am, sitting on the starting line, right foot shaking, left leg getting cramp, squinting through my bifocals to see the lights, having a good cough from all the fumes around me, and sitting in a sauna and you tell me that's OK.

Hell yes !!!!!!

[Grant Ellwood]

Amerikiwi :)
Take a look at a Sprint or a midget car. There are Knee Guards to protect your knees/pins from banging away at the steering box. Simple and works well. Good luck with your quest:o

Thanks Horizon, I should have thought of the speedway guys, they have more rolls than Amish pastry-cooks (my neighbours).

[AMCO72]

And I dont want some smart alec to come on here and tell me 'your only as old as you think' because that is nonsense! We all feel as though we are still 25, but I put it to you, have a go at doing the things you did at 25, and you will find your woefully inadequte in ALL departments!!!

[Rod Grimwood]

AMCO, back when 25, something we used to do all night now takes all night.

[Grant Ellwood]

And I dont want some smart alec to come on here and tell me 'your only as old as you think' because that is nonsense! We all feel as though we are still 25, but I put it to you, have a go at doing the things you did at 25, and you will find your woefully inadequte in ALL departments!!!
Yes AMCO, brings to mind the medical checks you mentioned earlier, hard to require 25-75s to meet the same standards.
For example, typical of many 60 plussers, I don't like driving after dark any more, luckily there are some activities you don't need good (or any) vision for....

[Rod Grimwood]

When you live up here no sense driving after dark as they all off the beach and in a bar or back at the backpackers, so to the bar, bugger.

[Jac Mac]

I didn't know that was requirement of Skope entry. Do you mean 4 meetings in total, or 4 meetings within a certain time frame? You might only do one meeting a year, say the Skope, which is not much better than none at all. And cheque book racers......yes well, that is now par for the course. We all get a certain amount of work done by professionals, as there would be few of us capable of tackling every job in a rebuild. I am lucky in that respect for I have my 'man' to do most stuff for me. Quite often he pays the bill as well, so I am really fortunate!!!! Dodgy repairs etc don't always show up at scrutineering, and Jac Mac has discovered 'things' that have escaped the eagle eye of previous scrutiny. As I said, I would hope that we put some value on our own skins and did things properly, but I have seen repairs done at meetings after crashes that would not stand too much inspection, and safety is compromised.If all the rules/guidelines were followed as per the MSNZ book these faults would probably have been 'found', if your car is involved in an incident where components are bent or damaged ,you the owner/driver are supposed to re- present the car at scrutineering before racing again, in the cases I have observed this either did not happen or the recheck did not uncover the damage, further competition in the cars with the bent/broken parts caused further damage to the point where the cars were virtually undriveable & the owners approached me to try & diagnose the problems, it was obvious that several attempts had been made with some scary stuff like rod ends with only 3 or 4 threads engaged, heaps of spacing washers / longer bolts to get suspension parts to line up etc...the list goes on... gets pretty hard to find the root cause unless you strip the whole car down. Part of the issue I feel comes from owners/drivers who really dont want to take ownership of the problem...lets say you do the Skope series for example...you get the initial scruitineer check @ ChCh, you are then not reqd to be rechecked until the next meeting after Teretonga( Assuming ChCh, Levels, Teretonga) which might a club meeting in september etc, now if you have been involved in a minor incident that was ' fixed on race day' without a 'recheck' at the time the chances of finding the damaged component gets pretty slim.

[Russ Cunningham]

Food for thought and debate. ---

I enjoyed motor racing when it was for real, e.g. First over the line was the winner and if you did not remain on a defined circuit it was accepted that you were very likely to hit something. When it became sanitised I went sailing. I had a second attempt at gaining satisfaction from what was once sport. I retired for good, laughing.

My great grand child recently gained fourth place racing a motorcycle and after a spill and getting back into the race. He is Four years old and I am sure he would be prevented from climbing anything while at kindergarten. LOL

Enjoy, Trevor.

Good Man,

I feel the same way. Motor sport today is crap & certainly not helped by the drop kicks in NZ motorsport who think that donating $1,000 to a pit girl competition assists competitors.
Do the decent thing Kerry Cooper and resign!

Russ Cunningham

[Russ Cunningham]

Hopefully we can have plenty of positive discussion regarding how we can race our vehicles in period styling while taking advantage of improved safety features. For example, I'm looking for some sort of containment system to stop my legs flailing about in a rollover (for a saloon). I have permanent knee damage from crashing a Begg at Baypark years ago my legs hit the dash hoop very hard on the way over the bank. I was wearing a 6 point harness but that doesn't stop your pins flailing around!
Also there are medical issues for many of us as we slide into our sunshine years, I'm taking blood pressure meds and am interested to see some discussion on this subject. I knew a driver who used to stop taking his meds a few days before an event because they affected his concentration, then had a heart attack during a race.
Plenty to discuss especially continuing the rollbar and helmet subjects...

Mate,

Your legs never looked great at any time. Your attempt at the "Miss Papamoa" title was an absolute joke and even high heels did'nt make them look any better.

As regards you going motor racing: You're bloody old & too likely to do a "Jonny Herbert" when the stress hits. Leave motorsport to us young blokes.

[bob homewood]

[QUOTE=Trevor Sheffield;12022]Food for thought and debate. ---

I enjoyed motor racing when it was for real, e.g. First over the line was the winner and if you did not remain on a defined circuit it was accepted that you were very likely to hit something. When it became sanitised I went sailing. I had a second attempt at gaining satisfaction from what was once sport. I retired for good, laughing.

Got to agree with you there Trevor ,its now but a shadow of what we knew it as ,for some reason people have to keep reinventing the wheel and come up with all sorts of bull to try and equalise what is happening ,or else as Russ says they are milking the system in some way ,what ever happened to first across the line was the winner and everyone else had to catch up.sorry I just don't go to motor racing anymore other than to catch up with a few old mates

[Grant Ellwood]

Mate,

Your legs never looked great at any time. Your attempt at the "Miss Papamoa" title was an absolute joke and even high heels did'nt make them look any better.

As regards you going motor racing: You're bloody old & too likely to do a "Jonny Herbert" when the stress hits. Leave motorsport to us young blokes.
Apparently if I'd shaved I would have done OK. Russ, good to see you back on the site, been a while. Thought you might have gone camping with Custaxie. Cheers, Grant

[AMCO72]

Bob, when you say you don't go to motoracing these days, I presume you mean 'modern' motoracing. I'm sure I saw you at the festival back in January, in fact I KNOW I did......you gave me some good advice, and you have business dealing with motoracing. It is a pointless exercise blokes on here complaining about racing as it is today. We all know it's crap, but no one is forcing you to go. Perhaps that is why 'classic' racing has taken off the way it has, but don't hold your breath on that one either. As Dale says, he has to keep moving on from the 'hot-shot' boys, usually with big check-books, because of the probability of damage. But this has always been the case......look at Go-karts.....started out with lawn-mower motors and wheel-barrow wheels, now they look like a formula one car. In a sport like ours it is natural that drivers and builders want to push the boundaries. I remember in the mid eighties when classic racing was quite new, someone turned up at Taupo with a hot car, then what do you know, next meeting 3 or 4 turn up with hotter cars, and so the dreadful spiral started. Then someone puts the brakes on, usually MSNZ, and we all start from scratch again. I suspect Bob, that given the opportunity, you would hop into a nice Anglia and have a go again, and as you have nothing to prove on the track, would enjoy the ride. And as we are talking safety on this thread, you MAY have decided to stop racing because of your age, your health, or whatever, or maybe you just ran out of money like the rest of us, but you looked a happy chappie at the festival doing what you do well...talking about the 'good old days'.

[jim short]

Dead right Amco I am off to Taupo soon as Geof picks me up ,he returned to Auck last night as his Juno v8 has hopfully been fixed ,Never have I seen a race like last Taupo. the computer made no sence nomater what{wrong password}to give the 740bhp Camaro over half a lap start and real it in was unbelevable .like the old days the jags streaking ahead then the mini out braking them third was a ex LE MANS r s r PORSCHE THEN A aUSSIE V8..It all comes down what you like ,If he was not racing I would stay home and watch the ST follow each other at Ruapuna As for complaning about the folk who run the event perhaps you can do better certanly sound like it, but I shure hope this site does not get like the ten tenths

[Rod Grimwood]

Upto us not to let it degenerate into that Jim, and i hope it does not. Have a nice day and i look forwaed to seeing you in the Juno ?

[Trevor Sheffield]

Russ/Bob,

Thanks guys, I had become a little disheartened, presuming my comments had been too subtle and gone over the heads of all current readers.

It is pointless to argue the points raised. Much of sport involves danger as an intrinsic ingredient. Watered down those sports become insignificant.

QED.

Trevor.

[Oldfart]

All this has gone a long way from the title of the thread!

[Wal Will]

I am not sure if I am alone with this, but I dislike the concept of safety issues being compulsory. I am not against helmets on pushbikes, or seat belts, helmets, HANS devices, whatever, I just object to the point that we are forced to do it/wear it.
There is no doubt that I would still wear a helmet and fasten seat belts whilst racing if it was not mandatory, but it should be my choice.
I am 71 and hope to continue with my racing for a few more years. I hope it will be my choice when I stop - and not because someone somewhere has decided that age should be a barrier.
I think that if forced to do things by 'them', one tends to hand over resonsibility, and starts to assume that 'they' will be in control of your fate. I for one was pleased to see the 'use by date' on seat belts relaxed. I am sure the supplier/manufacture chain was not, because they were the sole beneficiaries.
At the moment I don't wear a HANS device, I will alter that choice in the light of changing circumstances. If someone somewhere were to make that compulsory I would have to think serious about continuing to race. I want the choice to be mine.
I am all for regulations that protect third parties, but we have to be responsable for our own safety. If it is thought that something aids driver safety, then it should be recommended, and information supplied as to why. The choice should be given to the only person it applies to, you the driver.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Kia ora Wal Will,

You hit the nail on the head!

Trevor.

[Dave Silcock]

Could not have put it better myself well said

[Oldfart]

Absolutely

[Grant Ellwood]

There seems too much emphasis on the rollover accident, you can have plenty of health threatening incidents with out a roll over. Which is why I choose to wear seat belts in my Cooper Vincent. I was driving a Cooper Bristol at Wigram once when I was hit with a fair amount of force in the left rear wheel while exiting the hair pin. I was later shown a photo of the incident and to my surprise both arms where flung above my head and my whole upper body was out of the car and my helmet almost scraping the track. Rollbar or not I'd still have belts.

Regarding belts, a friend in NZ sent me a recent issue of New Zealand Racer, I guess it is free and available NZ wide. Issue 176 has a great article by Bernie Gillon about safety harnesses, in particular the benefits of poly versus nylon belts. I picked up a lot of new info, perhaps we could get permission to have it published on this forum?

[ERC]

I have only just found this thread and I have a few safety issues - which are probably a mix of the transport authorities rather more than MSNZ.

Firstly - why are harness belts illegal for road use?

How is it that you can race a car legally in NZ without harness belts?

Once a car is built and has its first warrant, then regulations change, how come it is suddenly illegal/unsafe?

How is it that 100's of examples of an imported car are on the road in NZ, then regulations change and you can no longer import that model, but the others can can still run?

With an authority card (for belts), if you just change the brand of belts, to another approved belt, you have to present the car to a scrutineer and apply for a NEW card?

If like my car, (the Marcos) which has a removeable diagonal bar from the rol over hoop (no cage) to the chassis, you will fail a WoF with it in, but the car is OK and perfectly legal on the road (or track) with it out.

The original seat belt mountings were no more than tabs welded on to the square section chassis, but a reinforced plate, tubed and threaded mountings for full harness belts only, with no facility for a lap and diagonal when we restored the chassis, somehow now renders the car a racing car and cannot then be used on the road with those strong, wide, belts without an authority card, yet the originals belt mountings were dangerous?

How come you can use a 15 year old lap and diagonal 2" belt every day on road and track, yet up until recently, a $400 harness used 5 or six times, had to be dumped like a pottle of 2 week old yogurt, because it was "old" at 5 years and 1 day?

Why aren't gloves compulsory?

Why the obsession with fire extinguishers in all cars when we all know that they are generally so small, they are ineffective and often, your number one priority is to escape the vehicle altogether and not scrabble around to unclip it (now two clips required and not one)?

Cage safety is for the driver's benefit, steering and suspension items are for both driver and other competitors safety, yet I know that even the most fastidious of drivers can have a component fail with dire results - I know, I nearly hit a TR6 that was flipped on its roof when a component failed, at Pukekohe.

Safety, now we have belts and hard hats and fire resistant gear, is at the point of diminishing returns and we are not running F1 cars. Many of us are running road cars and at speeds that in many cases are not that fast, when the average modern hot hatch accelerates faster, has a higher top speed, has ABS, airbags and brakes that are much better than ours.

So, safety and risk is all relative but the red tape is often strangling us.

[Dave Silcock]

Well said, these things need addressing sooner rather than later. It has been said on other threads 'what are we doing to to even retain our present stock of cars and drivers' Removing some of these obstacles would go along way to ensure we don't lose any more.
Must talk to you about my Jaguar and the series you run.
Cheers Dave.

[Racer Rog]

With the Southern Classic series, any damage at Skope would be checked at the ENZED meeting the following meeting, and anything happening there would be checked at Invercargill the next weekend, the series Auditors keep at good eye on what has happened, but according to the book, any damage must be noted in the log book and signed off at the next meeting, some competitors get abit anti when that happens, but hey shit happens!
Roger

[Trevor Sheffield]

ERC ---
I have only just found this thread and I have a few safety issues - which are probably a mix of the transport authorities rather more than MSNZ.

Firstly - why are harness belts illegal for road use?.


Probably due to the fact that they are inconvenient thus preventing regular use and would fit only the one driver. Anyone else could find it difficult to use the harness and there would have to be rule limiting the car to a single driver.


How is it that you can race a car legally in NZ without harness belts?.


Are you saying without a harness or belts, or without harness type of belts?


Once a car is built and has its first warrant, then regulations change, how come it is suddenly illegal/unsafe?.


You presumably are referring to MSNZ. Because the regs. are being constantly upgraded due to ongoing paranoia. WOF regs. have been changed but are aligned with given dates and are not especially onerous.


How is it that 100's of examples of an imported car are on the road in NZ, then regulations change and you can no longer import that model, but the others can can still run?.


For good reason laws can not be enforced as being retrospective.


With an authority card (for belts), if you just change the brand of belts, to another approved belt, you have to present the car to a scrutineer and apply for a NEW card?.


Possibly as a means of ensuring that mechanically the change has been carried out correctly.


If like my car, (the Marcos) which has a removeable diagonal bar from `the roll over hoop (no cage) to the chassis, you will fail a WoF with it in, but the car is OK and perfectly legal on the road (or track) with it out..


Please advise the exact position of the bar. In respect of the WOF, would it endanger or adversely effect a passenger? Have you been made to be remove it for motor racing? If so is it being portrayed as a danger, rather than an advantage? If so this is strange logic.


The original seat belt mountings were no more than tabs welded on to the square section chassis, but a reinforced plate, tubed and threaded mountings for full harness belts only, with no facility for a lap and diagonal when we restored the chassis, somehow now renders the car a racing car and cannot then be used on the road with those strong, wide, belts without an authority card, yet the originals belt mountings were dangerous?.


Refer to answers to the first question raised.


How come you can use a 15 year old lap and diagonal 2" belt every day on road and track, yet up until recently, a $400 harness used 5 or six times, had to be dumped like a pottle of 2 week old yogurt, because it was "old" at 5 years and 1 day?.


The powers that be, restrict themselves to abiding by international regulations to cover their back sides, rather than the covering the interests of those who constitute Mew Zealand motor sport.


Why aren't gloves compulsory?.


Because some drivers find them clumsy, liable to a catch in controls and very much a disadvantage. Damn it, surely drivers must be left with some freedom of choice and not be forced to always conform with the opinion of others who do not necessarily know better.


Why the obsession with fire extinguishers in all cars when we all know that they are generally so small, they are ineffective and often, your number one priority is to escape the vehicle altogether and not scrabble around to unclip it (now two clips required and not one)?.


Tradition and the fact that changing the existing rules would require effort on behalf of the powers that be.


Cage safety is for the driver's benefit, steering and suspension items are for both driver and other competitors safety, yet I know that even the most fastidious of drivers can have a component fail with dire results - I know, I nearly hit a TR6 that was flipped on its roof when a component failed, at Pukekohe..


Agreed, but what is your point? These items are covered as a result of scrurineering.


Safety, now we have belts and hard hats and fire resistant gear, is at the point of diminishing returns and we are not running F1 cars. Many of us are running road cars and at speeds that in many cases are not that fast, when the average modern hot hatch accelerates faster, has a higher top speed, has ABS, airbags and brakes that are much better than ours.

So, safety and risk is all relative but the red tape is often strangling us.

Absolutely, but why do you insist on driving g gloves? ( I am aware of the advantages in case of fire, but also of tactile advantage when driving a car.)

Otherwise you point out and confirm the very reason I gave up motor racing. Refer posts #32 #62 #64 & #69.

[John McKechnie]

Hi, in regards safety issues i have a serious question and that is the drivers seat.Can some knowledgeable person tell me if the original front seat on my falcon XA Coupe is allowable/eligable. As a HMC car I want to keep this car accurate.I dont want to put a purpose built race seat in, or have to weld my frame together to make the back fixed.The seat does not have recliners, but has the tilt mechanism for access to the back.

[Carlo]

Hi, in regards safety issues i have a serious question and that is the drivers seat.Can some knowledgeable person tell me if the original front seat on my falcon XA Coupe is allowable/eligable. As a HMC car I want to keep this car accurate.I dont want to put a purpose built race seat in, or have to weld my frame together to make the back fixed.The seat does not have recliners, but has the tilt mechanism for access to the back.

Best place to ask for information is the Motorsport NZ website and then go and have a look at the motorsport manual as every thing you need to know is there and it is current information.
Below is an extract that may assist you but you should read the complete section from the schedule before finalising your decisions:

4.7 Seating:
(1) Requirements: Seats shall:
(a) Be securely attached to the vehicle and adequately support the occupant(s) in competition, and
(b) Be installed in accordance with Part One Article 4.7(4), and
(c) Allow for the correct fitment/use of the Safety Harnesses.


(2) Seat Types: All of the following seat types are accepted under this Schedule:

(a) Original Seat: being a seat originally installed by the vehicle manufacturer to that particular vehicle model and type. All original seats shall comply:
(i) With the requirements of Part One Article 4.7(1)(a) and Article 4.7(1)(c).

[John McKechnie]

Hi Carlo, thank you very much for the extract and the direction to find it ,Have now read complete section.

[Carlo]

No trouble John, from my experience it is best to be armed with the knowledge from the rule book for often I have encountered officials and other participants most of whom are very well meaning but, they are adding their personal thoughts to the requirements rather than just complying with and / or enforcing the requirements of the sport.
They do it with the best of intentions but it can be miss leading and cause conflict.
Sometimes this occurs simply because they are out of date with current requirements.

[John McKechnie]

Hi Carlo, that reminds me of a building inspector-you know the one above God-he looked at my work and declared 6 inch nails dont hold anything .Only coach screw in his mind would do the trick.Regs didnt state that.
If in doubt, never argue -only question.Position of neutrality.

[Chris Read]

No trouble John, from my experience it is best to be armed with the knowledge from the rule book for often I have encountered officials and other participants most of whom are very well meaning but, they are adding their personal thoughts to the requirements rather than just complying with and / or enforcing the requirements of the sport.
They do it with the best of intentions but it can be miss leading and cause conflict.
Sometimes this occurs simply because they are out of date with current requirements.

Like the time an official said my roll cage on my pre 60 single seater (K) did not comply. I said the regs were clear that it was not mandatory to have a roll bar at all but I chose to put one in for safety but it could not comply as the 60yr old chassis design did not allow it but it was professionally done with the right material but could not have the correct angles -hence the rule the way it is.
Answer: either have it complying or take it out!
Personal opinion getting in the way of common sense rule.
I raced anyway.
Chris Read - Arrowtown

[Howard Wood]

The BMW series organisers in their wisdom have upped the minimum weight for the new under 2 litre class by 40kgs for older cars such as my '02. Given that I already had 10kgs of lead bolted and strapped securely under the passenger seat to meet the previous minimum weight this means 50 kgs of ballast potentially flying around inside the car in the event of a major shunt. Wisely ( I think), I have withdrawn from the series.

My question is, is there any way a scrutineer could pass this and is there anything in the safety regs that allows or covers this? I had already, correctly, been closely examined by the Manfeild scrutes to ensure that the 10kgs was secure!

[Russ Cunningham]

The BMW series organisers in their wisdom have upped the minimum weight for the new under 2 litre class by 40kgs for older cars such as my '02. Given that I already had 10kgs of lead bolted and strapped securely under the passenger seat to meet the previous minimum weight this means 50 kgs of ballast potentially flying around inside the car in the event of a major shunt. Wisely ( I think), I have withdrawn from the series.

My question is, is there any way a scrutineer could pass this and is there anything in the safety regs that allows or covers this? I had already, correctly, been closely examined by the Manfeild scrutes to ensure that the 10kgs was secure!

Isn't this typical in NZ motor sport.......rules are set, then some bright bastard decides to play with them. Good on you for with drawing from the series Howard.

[Steve Holmes]

The BMW series organisers in their wisdom have upped the minimum weight for the new under 2 litre class by 40kgs for older cars such as my '02. Given that I already had 10kgs of lead bolted and strapped securely under the passenger seat to meet the previous minimum weight this means 50 kgs of ballast potentially flying around inside the car in the event of a major shunt. Wisely ( I think), I have withdrawn from the series.

My question is, is there any way a scrutineer could pass this and is there anything in the safety regs that allows or covers this? I had already, correctly, been closely examined by the Manfeild scrutes to ensure that the 10kgs was secure!

Wow, thats like carrying around a passenger. A light one, granted. But thats a lot of extra weight to add further strain to suspension, brakes, etc.

[Rod Grimwood]

With you Howard, where are you meant to put that much weight. have the organisers given a reason for the weight change.

[Howard Wood]

Under the old regs there used to be a base minimum weight of 1000kg including driver with an additional 20kg penalty for EFI and another 40 kgs for multi valve engines to try to give some parity to older cars, certainly not a performance advantage. They have decided with 4 weeks to round one that all cars must be minimum 1040kgs including driver, no reason given.

I think anyone who runs older race engines knows how hard ( and expensive) it is to get decent useable power, but as I built my car to be period correct and to sched K there are plenty of other places to play. My concern is only with the safety issue of the potential of 50 odd kgs of ballast flying around and wondered if indeed there was a precedent or accepted way of adding ballast short of getting real fat. Maybe run a swinger like a sidecar unit?

[Rod Grimwood]

Howard I could solve the problem for you, but may have to adjust the seat.
The 50kgs is definately a problem, where do you put it and not good timeing. See you running with other guys and enjoying yourself, that is what is about, enjoyment.

[Racer Rog]

This is a problem with many "home made series" the goal posts keep changeing, to my mind, if built to schedule K, this is a good legal car, and with the H & C commission working on schedule CR saloons for CoD's, there is hope, that these issues will be a thing of the past, and a good set of rules established for the series, like Dale has done for HMC, there is going to be a open H & C forum in the major regions soon, to ge.t to grips with what is wanted, within the bounds of schedule K and T & C, in simple terms as it was, so it shall be. There is a growing movement to this form of racing, where the cars are the stars, its more enjoyable, and in some cases cheaper, but not all, and lets face it, Bernie's not likely to come knocking on anybody involved, door.
Roger

[Howard Wood]

Unfortunately many series are run by and for the organisers seemingly with maintaining the status quo being the priority rather than encouraging new competitors.

In my case, running in Dale's HMC series is the priority and there is no way I can be pulling 50kgs of ballast in and out of the car between races at the same meeting and I'm certainly not giving those V8's any more advantage!