MHDT Commodores

[aussiemonza]

Hi All,

I currently own two Group ‘C’ Australian Touring Cars from 1980, the Marlboro Holden Dealer Team (MHDT) VB Commodore (1980 ATCC winner) and the MHDT VC Commodore (1980 Bathurst Winner). I will reference these cars as Car 1 and Car 2.

Over the past years I have spent countless hours establishing the authenticity of both of these cars so that they are presented in as close to original condition as is possible.

I have been able to establish a clear line of history for both cars, their racing histories and chain of ownership demonstrating to me that vehicles I purchased for restoration are undisputedly authentic (see below).

As with many historic race cars, there are always stories, innuendo, he said-she said, rumors, supposed little known facts etc, from both dubious and respected sources that, unfortunately, more than often leads to misinformation becoming fact or folklore.

That is not to say that there is no other information out there. There well could be!

Therefore, I ask that if any person has any information or detail, be it supportive or contradictory to the authenticity of my cars, that they please let me know as soon as possible, either on the Forum, by email or hard mail (P.O.Box 5030, Studfield. 3152). Sometime before the end of May would be appreciated.

I also refer those interested to the document “The Case of Old Bentley Number One” - http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html which is conclusive as regards “authenticity” of Historic Vehicles. It is a good read.

To me, my two vehicles represent a very important and respected part of Australian motor racing history so they have to be right!

Best regards, Rowan Harman.

Car 1.

1979. First built as the prototype VB Commodore Group C by the MHDT.
1980. VB. Brock. ATCC, Brock/Harvey CRC 300. VB. Harvey, Adelaide Enduro.
1980. VC. Moffat, Sandown. Harvey/Harrop, Bathurst. Sold to Benson-Brown.
1981. VC. Benson-Brown ATCC. Benson-Brown/Rogers Bathurst. Damaged.
1981/82. Repaired as VH, later back to VC, then VH for Enduro’s. Benson Brown ATCC, Benson-Brown/C. O’Brien Sandown/Bathurst.
1982/83. Rebuilt using new VH shell. Benson-Brown ATCC, Benson Brown/Rogers, Sandown/Bathurst.
1984. Sold to Keogh, Northern Territory Team car, Stack/Clift/Keogh, Sandown/Bathurst.
1985. Converted to VK Group A. Keogh ATCC. Sold to Ray Ellis. Ellis/McLure Sandown/Bathurst.
1986. Ellis ATCC. Ellis/Baily, Sandown/Bathurst.
1987. Ellis ATCC. Ellis built a new VL, (the VL now owned by Mark Taylor – Qld). Car 1 partially converted to VL “show car”.
1987 – 2003. Car 1 in storage.
2003. Purchased by Rowan Harman.

Car 2.

1980. Second MHDT Commodore built. VB. Brock, Adelaide. VC. Brock, Sandown. Brock/Richards, Bathurst.
1981. Brock ATCC. Harvey/Schuppan, Sandown/Bathurst.
1982. MHDT
1983. Sold to Keogh. Keogh ATCC, Sandown. Keogh/Leonard, Bathurst.
1984. Keogh ATCC. Keogh/Shiel, Bathurst/Sandown.
1985. Sold to Burgman/Stevens.
1985/86. Sold to East. Converted to VK.
1987. Sold to Blackney
1988. Converted to AUSCAR. Blackney, AUSCAR, 1988 – 1992.
1992/93. Sold to Jones.
1994/95. Jones AUSCAR Sportsman. Damaged at the Thunderdome Nov 95.
1995. Rebuilt into new shell.
1995/96. Jones AUSCAR Sportsman.
1996/2009. Jones.
2009. Purchased by Rowan Harman.

ENDS.

[AMCO72]

Hi there aussiemonza.....by the tone of your letter, you are trying to convince yourself and everyone else, that what you have in these two cars is something special; something worth having; something with history. Well, they certainly have history, a bit checkered in places, but you have done some serious research on them and come up with the continuous history lists that you have. The best thing we could say about the 2 cars is that they are the ONLY cars that can CLAIM to be the Brock and Co cars that competed back then. A bit like Old Number One Bentley......As it is today, it is NOT the Bentley that raced in the 20's and 30's, but it is the ONLY Bentley that can claim to be Old No 1.... Mr Justice Otton's summing up of that case, involving Hubbard and Middlebridge Scimitar, as you say makes for interesting reading, and had far reaching effects in the Classic car world. The difference between your cars and old No1 is that at least the Bentley had a chassis, most of which has survived, albeit somewhat modified, whereas your cars, once the body gets changed so does the chassis, and you say both have been re-bodied. So your cars are NOT the bodies,the engines,the seats, the windscreens etc that Mr Brock and Co sat behind, and of course as any race car ages these things become even more unlikely. I have got Michael Hay's book on old No1, my email address is bentley6@......and I have had an interest in these old war-horses for longer than I dare think. You are lucky that you have been able to trace these histories, as with most race cars they just get dumped as soon as they become uncompetitive. Continuous history is the basis for evaluating a classic race car, and Justice Otton, who wasn't a car enthusiast as such, didn't let a whole lot of market talk get in the way of his verdict.....in other words he approached it with no preconcieved ideas. He was very brave, I think, as there was some BIG money talking here. I appreciate that you just want to get the cars right, and I say, go for it.

[aussiemonza]

Hi there aussiemonza.....by the tone of your letter, you are trying to convince yourself and everyone else, that what you have in these two cars is something special; something worth having; something with history. Well, they certainly have history, a bit checkered in places, but you have done some serious research on them and come up with the continuous history lists that you have. The best thing we could say about the 2 cars is that they are the ONLY cars that can CLAIM to be the Brock and Co cars that competed back then. A bit like Old Number One Bentley......As it is today, it is NOT the Bentley that raced in the 20's and 30's, but it is the ONLY Bentley that can claim to be Old No 1.... Mr Justice Otton's summing up of that case, involving Hubbard and Middlebridge Scimitar, as you say makes for interesting reading, and had far reaching effects in the Classic car world. The difference between your cars and old No1 is that at least the Bentley had a chassis, most of which has survived, albeit somewhat modified, whereas your cars, once the body gets changed so does the chassis, and you say both have been re-bodied. So your cars are NOT the bodies,the engines,the seats, the windscreens etc that Mr Brock and Co sat behind, and of course as any race car ages these things become even more unlikely. I have got Michael Hay's book on old No1, my email address is bentley6@......and I have had an interest in these old war-horses for longer than I dare think. You are lucky that you have been able to trace these histories, as with most race cars they just get dumped as soon as they become uncompetitive. Continuous history is the basis for evaluating a classic race car, and Justice Otton, who wasn't a car enthusiast as such, didn't let a whole lot of market talk get in the way of his verdict.....in other words he approached it with no preconcieved ideas. He was very brave, I think, as there was some BIG money talking here. I appreciate that you just want to get the cars right, and I say, go for it.

Your on it AMCO72. I can only claim "authenticity" not "Original" and a clear line of history.

"The difference between your cars and old No1 is that at least the Bentley had a chassis" is correct though No1 did get a new chassis in 1931/32.

I have responded on another forum that production based race cars are treated the same as "traditional" race cars. That is that the repair of a production based race car that uses a new body shell is acceptable. As an example, say a Lola F5000 has a big crash. It is rebuilt using a new tub, bodywork, suspension, wheels and rear wing. When it next races, is it a new car or the original car repaired?

[AMCO72]

I'm sure you have read the threads on this forum about replicas etc. We have been thrashing this subject around for weeks. These issues only seem to rear their ugly heads when a vehicle is sold and is misrepresented, and all the 'history' is lost in the mists of time. I am sure you are going about this in the correct way and everything is above board. We don't want someone in the future of accusing you of 'fiddling the books'. Back to the Bentley. Wasn't it just the side rails that were replaced by Wally Hassan and others. Looks like I will have to do some serious bedtime reading again!!!!

[aussiemonza]

I'm sure you have read the threads on this forum about replicas etc. We have been thrashing this subject around for weeks. These issues only seem to rear their ugly heads when a vehicle is sold and is misrepresented, and all the 'history' is lost in the mists of time. I am sure you are going about this in the correct way and everything is above board. We don't want someone in the future of accusing you of 'fiddling the books'. Back to the Bentley. Wasn't it just the side rails that were replaced by Wally Hassan and others. Looks like I will have to do some serious bedtime reading again!!!!

I haven't read the Replica thread but will do. I have posted the subject to flush out as much info on the cars as is possible and Forum's like TRS offer that opportunity.

Re No1, Barnato requested Hassan to "rebuild the car"..."Mr. Hassan started with a 4+ litre chassis frame which was stronger than the old 6.5 litre because it was feared it would break or crack". Later... "It was really only the side-member which were replaced" ... "the old chassis number LB2332 was marked on the new chassis frame".