Old Race Tracks

[Ray Bell]

My van...

https://i.postimg.cc/VkQnKcNj/0525-19-centreofnorthamerica.jpg

...essentially hasn't been photographed at circuits as I've been taking the photos of the circuits as I drove around them in it.

And no, Roger, it hasn't been around Lakeside. It hasn't actually been to any Queensland circuits, though I might take it to Leyburn some time soon - the old airstrip circuit - and no doubt I'll do a lap of the Southport AGP circuit some time.

As for the Lakeside photos, it's quite possible that they got them from Autopics because Autopics got a lot of images from Chevron publications and both those photos (start of the 1966 AGP and start of one of the heats of the 1965 Australian Tourist Trophy) were used by Chevron.

[Ray Bell]

To fully answer a couple more questions, it remains left hand drive...

When I bought it in 2014 it still had three years to go before I could register it LHD in Australia, so I left it in America for another two years to do a second trip in it before shipping it home.

And I do really like it, yes, it's very good to drive and I'm going to eventually kit it out completely for travel.

I learned today that my trip to Central Australia (via Goondiwindi, Bourke, Peterborough, Roxby Downs etc) may well be extended to take me as far North as Katherine. Which will mean that I go back home via Mt Isa, a place I've never been. No circuits there, however.

[Roger Dowding]

My van...

https://i.postimg.cc/VkQnKcNj/0525-19-centreofnorthamerica.jpg

...essentially hasn't been photographed at circuits as I've been taking the photos of the circuits as I drove around them in it.

And no, Roger, it hasn't been around Lakeside. It hasn't actually been to any Queensland circuits, though I might take it to Leyburn some time soon - the old airstrip circuit - and no doubt I'll do a lap of the Southport AGP circuit some time.

As for the Lakeside photos, it's quite possible that they got them from Autopics because Autopics got a lot of images from Chevron publications and both those photos (start of the 1966 AGP and start of one of the heats of the 1965 Australian Tourist Trophy) were used by Chevron.

Thanks Ray, good to see the van

Re Ken H's van ; Isn't that the small International from the 1950's ??, a Mate in Oregon knew a lot about them !

[Ray Bell]

The wheels look un-American...

More like Austin or Morris, but I don't recognise that windscreen.

Though maybe Dana did do a large 6-stiud pattern at one time. It does have fully-floating axles which is pretty serious stuff.

Maybe Bedford?

[Roger Dowding]

Sorry Ray,
I'm having trouble getting my ol' van back on the road again. I was hoping to join up with you for
the"Tour de Oz" and perhaps make it over to "Van Demon's Land" and check out Longford etc..
I hate to let you down mate.

61862


(Ken H)

Ken H and Ray - That van;

" International Harvester's Metro Van is a step van, also known as walk-in or multi-stop delivery ... In 1959, the "Metro Mite" was introduced. "

and a photo, well two actually - one restored, one in need - indeed !!

61901

61902

and a quick quiz - what is this ???

61903

Well known to Kiwi Motorsport fans .. even ex pats Ken H..

[Roger Dowding]

Centre seat, can only be a Morris J1 Breadvan...do you have them Stateside, hippie love them

Not quite John McK - see later post #255 !! Cheers

[Milan Fistonic]

Ken H and Ray - That van;

" International Harvester's Metro Van is a step van, also known as walk-in or multi-stop delivery ... In 1959, the "Metro Mite" was introduced. "

and a photo, well two actually - one restored, one in need - indeed !!

61901

61902

and a quick quiz - what is this ???

61903

Well known to Kiwi Motorsport fans .. even ex pats Ken H..

The Lycoming engine in Ralph Watson's Special

[Kwaussie]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/150-stories-in-150-days/7995871/British-drivers-pleased-with-road-race

I think the Lycoming with Ralph Watson was there the next year 1957!

[Roger Dowding]

The Lycoming engine in Ralph Watson's Special

Indeed Milan, I had to re-title the photo as had all the details - here is the programme cover - the Sports Car Race entry list and my own photos of the car and engine at Dunedin in 1984 with Ralph Smith.

61921

61922

61923

That engine 30 years later ..
61924

A sad day for the car after a contretemps in 1962 at Wigram.. from Art McKee archives..Forrest Cardon driving.
on its second set of number plates the yellow and black -last of the old style.
Previous [ original plate ] was was Cream and Burgundy " 427.793 " ]

61925

And .. a scruffy but fast Lycoming in the hands of Jim Boyd, at Waimate in 1966 - with new Registration - permanent plates were in .. Flamboyant and FAST ..a great guy all round.
Allan Dick photo -

61926

In Steve Holmes new Book is a story on the Lycoming ..

[Milan Fistonic]

Another shot of Jim Boyd in the Lycoming

61927

[Oldfart]

A quote from Jim "Flat out on the back straight at Puke, it fires every alternate lampost", I never realised there were lamposts down there!

[Ray Bell]

The same was said of the Horsley/Kelly Puff...

It had crook rings in one cylinder, so gave off a puff at every fourth firing.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Indeed Milan, I had to re-title the photo as had all the details - here is the programme cover - the Sports Car Race entry list and my own photos of the car and engine at Dunedin in 1984 with Ralph Smith.

61921

61922

61923

That engine 30 years later ..
61924

A sad day for the car after a contretemps in 1962 at Wigram.. from Art McKee archives..Forrest Cardon driving.
on its second set of number plates the yellow and black -last of the old style.
Previous [ original plate ] was was Cream and Burgundy " 427.793 " ]

61925

And .. a scruffy but fast Lycoming in the hands of Jim Boyd, at Waimate in 1966 - with new Registration - permanent plates were in .. Flamboyant and FAST ..a great guy all round.
Allan Dick photo -

61926

In Steve Holmes new Book is a story on the Lycoming ..



A Supplementary Edition of the book,“Ralph Watson Special Engineer” will be exclusively available here very soon and sales will contribute donations towards The Roaring Season. The book provides absolutely correct and exact technical details covering the Lycoming Special as well as its history.

Watch this space. LOL

[jellywrestler]

Motor-bikes have also been raced at Drury, New Lynn,and Manukau City but the last 2 not in the "nostalgia" era.

Stu anyone know whereabouts in drury they raced?

[jellywrestler]

Gerald, Markec asked me to post these for you, said you'd enjoy them.

6535

one wonders how long Bryndwr went for, it started in 1950 and word has it that it didn't survive that decade, there must be some old racing programs out there that will tell part of the story, classes that were run etc?

[Allan]

Can anyone remember a dirt track or speedway track in or somewhere near Karori in Wellington.

[Roger Dowding]

A Supplementary Edition of the book,“Ralph Watson Special Engineer” will be exclusively available here very soon and sales will contribute donations towards The Roaring Season. The book provides absolutely correct and exact technical details covering the Lycoming Special as well as its history.

Watch this space. LOL

As mentioned on Trevor's thread about the Ralph Watson - Special Engineer " book - mine arrived today -
Much reading to do - haven't bought two Motoring books [ Steve Holmes book as well ] in a week in years, and today the latest
" NZ Classic Driver ' as well.

[jellywrestler]

Can anyone remember a dirt track or speedway track in or somewhere near Karori in Wellington.

not aware of one, in the welly area there was kilbirnie and taita in the hutt valley. any flat land out karori would likely have been a prime spot for building? try Retrolens aerial maps, select a date span and that narrows down the options, a bit labourious trying to search but well worth the effort.

[jellywrestler]

does anyone out there know when pukekohe first used turn one as it is today? the original circuit turned left at the end of the grandstands dissapeared and then joined in at the right hander onto the back straight. Around 66 they run the circuit around the outer of the horse track to essentially what it is there now,shortening the lap by 700meters. The internaughty tells us one year there was one track, then the next the next, but i reckon it would have changed over some time during the years, hence my question please.

[Oldfart]

I have previously posted when the "old" circuit was last used, they did carry on with both for a period, Jellywrestler, so hopefully someone can answer both our queries.

[Milan Fistonic]

The Club Circuit, formed when the new piece of track was laid, was first used on October 22 1966.

The first race meeting on the short 1.75 mile circuit was held on November 5 1966.

The long track continued to be used for the long distance saloon car races. A national race meeting was held on that track on April 6 1975.

[Oldfart]

Thanks Milan, I figured if anyone knew it would be you :)

[stubuchanan]

anyone know whereabouts in drury they raced?

It gets a mention in the Auckland Motor Cycle Club history (Seventy-Five Years on Two Wheels by Dr Calum Gilmour) but only just. It was "out the back of Drury" and included unsealed roads - not uncommon with motor cycle races of the time.
It was seen as a possible replacement for the Mangere circuit, for the Tourist Trophy. but this didn't happen. The TT was run at the NZ GP meeting at Ardmore in 1962, and as a separate meeting at Pukekohe in February 1963 and at the NZ GP meetings in later years.

Lake Bryndwr

I think this circuit was used only in 1957. I have read an article on the Lake Bryndwr track, or perhaps a thread on this forum, with photos of racing there.

Hope this may be of help to you.

Stu Buchanan

[jellywrestler]

The Club Circuit, formed when the new piece of track was laid, was first used on October 22 1966.

The first race meeting on the short 1.75 mile circuit was held on November 5 1966.

The long track continued to be used for the long distance saloon car races. A national race meeting was held on that track on April 6 1975.

i won on the long track at an NZACU national points meeting in 1990,

[jellywrestler]

It gets a mention in the Auckland Motor Cycle Club history (Seventy-Five Years on Two Wheels by Dr Calum Gilmour) but only just. It was "out the back of Drury" and included unsealed roads - not uncommon with motor cycle races of the time.
It was seen as a possible replacement for the Mangere circuit, for the Tourist Trophy. but this didn't happen. The TT was run at the NZ GP meeting at Ardmore in 1962, and as a separate meeting at Pukekohe in February 1963 and at the NZ GP meetings in later years.

Lake Bryndwr

I think this circuit was used only in 1957. I have read an article on the Lake Bryndwr track, or perhaps a thread on this forum, with photos of racing there.

Hope this may be of help to you.

Stu Buchanan

just read that book last week, was lucky enough to buy a copy within a couple of hours of looking for one, better still it was local, and the only confirmation of one happening at Drury was the fact that Dick Waterer had ridden there. i'd be interested on where the info came that it included unsealed roads, i'm doing some research and like stuff to be as right as possible, also enjoying chasing this stuff up and chatting to old timers who took part

[jellywrestler]

just read that book last week, was lucky enough to buy a copy within a couple of hours of looking for one, better still it was local, and the only confirmation of one happening at Drury was the fact that Dick Waterer had ridden there. i'd be interested on where the info came that it included unsealed roads, i'm doing some research and like stuff to be as right as possible, also enjoying chasing this stuff up and chatting to old timers who took part

dug a little deeper, a 2.7 mile circuit in the early sixties, anyone the wiser now as to where it was by any chance?

[Murray Maunder]

Mt Maunganui hosted car and bike race meetings on Totara Street in the mid sixties immediately prior to Baypark being built in 1967/68. They were hugely well attended meetings and included several top motorcycle riders at the conclusion of the European GP season - 4 times World Champ Hugh Anderson on his works Suzuki a highlight. I heard it said by one of the organising committee some years later that if they had ran those meetings for just a few more years they could have afforded to buy the chunk of land in the dunes that Baypark was bought on but the BOP Motorracing Association pressed on with ambitious plans to build a purpose built track.

Prior to that the racing was held on the Otumoetai streets where the "Trust Hotel" later Bureta Park were. Before that they ran motorcycle races at Te Puna using Armstrong, Te Puna, Snograss and I think Borell Roads, some of it unsealed. You can still drive these rural roads and get an impression how fast it would have been.

[GD66]

The bikes ran two races at each of the International car meetings run at Totara Street in 1963 when world champ Jim Redman rode his Honda 250 four, and '64, then ran a motorcycles-only meeting there in 1965, dominated by the Hamilton rider Bryan Scobie who went on to race cars in latter years. After Te Puna, the motorcycle club had run two meetings in Tauranga around a tight circuit comprising Dive Crescent, Marsh Street, Cliff Road, Monmouth Street (right past the Police station !), Willow Street and McLean Street, featuring international riders and a good crowd, in January 1962 and '63. As well as the bikes-only Totara Steet 1965 meeting, the club ran a couple of standing- and flying-quarter mile sprints in Totara Street.
The triangular Otumoetai circuit, comprising Vale Street, Bureta Road, Ngatai Road and Chapel Street ran in January 1966, with Anderson aboard his world championship-winning 125 Suzuki, and Jan 1967, then Bay Park opened in December 1967 and that was the end of the popular street circuits around Tauranga. Good fun while they lasted, and very popular with the holiday crowds.

[jellywrestler]

thanks for that gary, coincidentally a brochure from hugh anderson turned up in the mail today with those circuits on it, and the tauranga airport one, been on to aerial maps of the day and found where the airport one was, not much left there now, here's a glimpse of what's left of one of the straights. fascinating stuff. https://www.google.com/maps/@-37.6687956,176.2028022,3a,75y,296.97h,87.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svrkdHvCLBtxYuqFoEsCkhw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Allan]

62919

Does anyone know anything about this that I found on the internet recently?

[khyndart in CA]

Allan,
Perhaps Scott Dixon is arranging for an Indy car event as that looks like it could be a pretty quick circuit.

I did not know before that the Auckland and Waikato boundaries went right across the circuit and the Waikato has the biggest share !

(Ken H)

[Roger Dowding]

62919

Does anyone know anything about this that I found on the internet recently?

Horses OUT, Cars IN by the looks .. there have been a few ideas about changing Pukekohe over time but nothing has happened apart from losing the Club Circuit and the back straight Chicane that has changed a few times !!

[Roger Dowding]

Allan,
Perhaps Scott Dixon is arranging for an Indy car event as that looks like it could be a pretty quick circuit.

I did not know before that the Auckland and Waikato boundaries went right across the circuit and the Waikato has the biggest share !

(Ken H)

So we could half a Blues /Chiefs game there and would be a home game for both teams for half the game !! just thinkin' :cool:

[jellywrestler]

62919

Does anyone know anything about this that I found on the internet recently?

it's just someone playing, if you were serious about improving a track the first thing would be make it safe so motorcycles can return. That simply makes decent business sense if nothing else, next is to sort out some esses,

[Ray Bell]

It's another evidence that few people today can think of anything but exaggerated importance of braking areas to improve 'racing'...

Look at the map of Queensland Raceway to see how that pans out.

[jellywrestler]

Getting back to the thread title, Old race tracks, when I lived in Christchurch in the 50's there used to be a track round the perimeter of Lake Bryndwr on the northern side of the city. I didn't ever go to a meeting there, but we used to water-ski on the lake itself. This would have been about 1956. I dont think any of the races there would have been for 'Chassis Racers', but I suspect all sorts of hum-drum saloon cars of the 30's and 40's. That seems to be what these old machines were reduced to, as Pallmall has said, nobody wanted them. I'll bet George Smith and Co also went there to do some skids. The whole area is probably a housing estate now, if it hasn't been shaken to bits by the earthquakes.

so Bryndwr first ran in 1950 does anyone know when the last meeting ran, and why it shut down?

[jellywrestler]

Ronnie moores father , Les, died in a race at the old aerodrome in Timaru in the 1960's. does anyone out there know what sort of meeting he was competing in, or a date so i can track an old newspaper down please?
not being morbid here, I have a friend who raced bikes at the same meeting and interested in that side of the meeting, whether it was grass track or what.

[jellywrestler]

saltwater creek in timaru, anyone intimate with what went on there?, and when?

[Roger Dowding]

saltwater creek in timaru, anyone intimate with what went on there?, and when?

Allan Dick of Autonews in the 1970's now a writer for NZ Classic Driver Magazine and runs the " Classic Autonews " Facebook page may be able to help - it was down his way, I understand - Allan is from Dunedin and now lives in Oamaru.

I may have a couple of photos from there - not mine - will have a look.

[khyndart in CA]

The Saltwater Creek track at the southern end of Timaru was the original airport and was used for racing once the new airport at Levels was constructed.

RA Vanguard information;
" First racing appearance of wires seems to have been with Les Moore in 1960

Moore's fatal accident in the car was at the Saltwater Creek track, Timaru, on Labour Weekend the same year." (David McKinney. April 2013.)
63522

The conditions seemed a bit rough as shown in these photos. Similar to Tahuna Beach, Nelson.
63525
(Doug Algie )

63527
(Fred McLean in his Buckler..)

Info from previous TRS posts.

(Ken H..)

[Roger Dowding]

The Saltwater Creek track at the southern end of Timaru was the original airport and was used for racing once the new airport at Levels was constructed.

RA Vanguard information;
" First racing appearance of wires seems to have been with Les Moore in 1960

Moore's fatal accident in the car was at the Saltwater Creek track, Timaru, on Labour Weekend the same year." (David McKinney. April 2013.)
63522

The conditions seemed a bit rough as shown in these photos. Similar to Tahuna Beach, Nelson.
63525
(Doug Algie )

63527
(Fred McLean in his Buckler..)

Info from previous TRS posts.

(Ken H..)

Ken H, you have been busy - think I have a couple of Allan Dick photos of the events there too !! Cheers

[jellywrestler]

there was a one off street circuit in downtown Timaru in febuaray 1967, odd that this happened after waimate and only just before levels was opened instead of just keeping going with waimate.
Anyone got any ideas as to why the change please?

[jellywrestler]

anyone got any old programs from Mariehau in chch, found three a couple of weeks ago and keen on more to find out how long it ran for etc please

[Ray Bell]

Here's a little video...

https://youtu.be/zWa9gvLygng

And another interesting one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZlKY5oALVU

And from there you'll get the 'Circuits of the Past' videos by their large number.

[bry3500]

Here's a little video...

https://youtu.be/zWa9gvLygng

And another interesting one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZlKY5oALVU

And from there you'll get the 'Circuits of the Past' videos by their large number.

Subscribed! Cheers Ray, nice links.

[jellywrestler]

there was a one off street circuit in downtown Timaru in febuaray 1967, odd that this happened after waimate and only just before levels was opened instead of just keeping going with waimate.
Anyone got any ideas as to why the change please?

appears that the governing body anzcc (motorsport nz) banned street racing at the time but allowed this one off meet in timaru to run in the interim as it was deemed safer until levels was opened later that year.

[stubuchanan]

appears that the governing body anzcc (motorsport nz) banned street racing at the time but allowed this one off meet in timaru to run in the interim as it was deemed safer until levels was opened later that year.

By all accounts it was a pretty rough circuit and the mechanical carnage and accident rate was quite high. I remember hearing at the time that the organisers ran the circuit in the opposite direction to that approved originally by ANZCC. Can't vouch for the truth of this.

Stu

[Ray Bell]

Huh!

Now I discover that the 'Circuits of the Past' website has one of my stories on it!

Along with pictures, of course, the circuit involved being Lobethal. I gave it to Herman, the Dutch bloke who does the sites and videos, about fifteen years ago and I'd forgotten.

https://www.circuitsofthepast.com/lobethal-street-circuit-australia/

[jellywrestler]

Huh!

Now I discover that the 'Circuits of the Past' website has one of my stories on it!

Along with pictures, of course, the circuit involved being Lobethal. I gave it to Herman, the Dutch bloke who does the sites and videos, about fifteen years ago and I'd forgotten.

https://www.circuitsofthepast.com/lobethal-street-circuit-australia/

so if you know about the other side of the ditches tracks what was the first sealed circuit in aussie and what year please?

[Ray Bell]

To the best of my knowledge it was Lobethal...

However, some of the Western Australian circuits, which were street courses around towns radiating out from Perth, might have been all-sealed as well. But only Albany predated the Lobethal 1938 race, and photos from there show gravel spraying up behind a car's wheel, so Lobethal remains - as far as I know - the first all-sealed circuit used in Australia.

Unless the circuit at Benalla was all-sealed. But I'm pretty sure it wasn't, at least one stretch of it is very unlikely to have been sealed. Lengthy stretches of Victor Harbor and almost all of Phillip Island were unsealed. The Wirlinga-Thurgoona circuit wasn't fully sealed either, its first meeting was either April or June, 1938 anyway.

So it was most likely Lobethal, first raced on January 1, 1938.

This is not counting Maroubra Speedway, of course, which was a concrete bowl, I am only referring to road racing circuits.

A better question might be, "Which Australian circuit was the last one that wasn't all-sealed?"

[Ray Bell]

Double post, sorry...

[jellywrestler]

To the best of my knowledge it was Lobethal...

However, some of the Western Australian circuits, which were street courses around towns radiating out from Perth, might have been all-sealed as well. But only Albany predated the Lobethal 1938 race, and photos from there show gravel spraying up behind a car's wheel, so Lobethal remains - as far as I know - the first all-sealed circuit used in Australia.

Unless the circuit at Benalla was all-sealed. But I'm pretty sure it wasn't, at least one stretch of it is very unlikely to have been sealed. Lengthy stretches of Victor Harbor and almost all of Phillip Island were unsealed. The Wirlinga-Thurgoona circuit wasn't fully sealed either, its first meeting was either April or June, 1938 anyway.

So it was most likely Lobethal, first raced on January 1, 1938.

This is not counting Maroubra Speedway, of course, which was a concrete bowl, I am only referring to road racing circuits.

A better question might be, "Which Australian circuit was the last one that wasn't all-sealed?"

interesting, in nz Bryndwr was our first purpose built circuit, fully sealed, i'm curious as to what aussies first purpose built circuit fully sealed was, rather than a street circuit. nice to see people with similar interests out there

[Ray Bell]

The first fully-sealed purpose-built circuit not based on an airfield circuit was Altona, near Melbourne...

This was essentially the shallow dry area around a little lake called Cherry Lake and it as sealed for racing in 1953. But Mount Druitt had preceded this, with the proviso that it used an airstrip as its main straight, a year or to earlier. Of it's 2.2 or 2.4 miles, perhaps a mile as on the old airstrip, the rest was purpose-built and sealed for racing.

It wasn't long before a wet season saw this flooded and within three or four years it was beyond repair.

Phillip Island came in 1956, but there were plenty of fully-sealed airstrip circuits around which used the strip and taxiways or service roads to complete the circuit. Mooliabeenie and Caversham had the main strip and what was called a dispersal road joining one end to the other and going off into the bush. These were intended for use during the war to hide aircraft under the trees.

Nowra - 1946. Caversham - 1946. Lowood - 1948. Mooliabeenie - 1950.

[Roger Dowding]

Great information Ray Bell,

Have been given the " Australian Motor Racing Annual 1967 " which has a summary of the 1967 Tasman Cup Series - " In the Mirrors "
Covering from Pukekohe NZIGP through Levin Wigram Teretonga then the Australian part of the series at Lakeside Warwick Farm AGP Oran Park Sandown and Longford.
Not sure if the list is in order as the article is a bit hard to follow as not headlined for each track.
There are maps of Pukekohe [ without the loop ] Wigram Lakeside Sandown Park and Longford.

A few Lost tracks among the " Old Race Tracks "- that list Levin and Longford, among them.

[jellywrestler]

port wakefeild 1st jan 1953. all of our military airfeilds particularly had three strips in a triangle shape giving 6 different landing options 60degrees apart so none needed extra seal to run races and as you said service roads were used too

[Ray Bell]

I'm sorry, I forgot Port Wakefield, though in working on memory I would have said it was inaugurated in 1954, a year or so before the AGP there in 1955...

Are you in Australia?

Yes, in the main, airstrip circuits had a triangle to work with. But not Mt Druitt, nor Marsden Park, Strathpine, Lowood, Point Cook, Mooliabeenie, Ringwood, Tomago, Gawler, Beverley or Quorn Hall. So I guess it's not even 'in the main' when you count them up. Then you look at some, like Schofields and the main Caversham circuit, they had the triangle but didn't use it, racing in part on taxiways etc.

[jellywrestler]

I'm sorry, I forgot Port Wakefield, though in working on memory I would have said it was inaugurated in 1954, a year or so before the AGP there in 1955...

Are you in Australia?

Yes, in the main, airstrip circuits had a triangle to work with. But not Mt Druitt, nor Marsden Park, Strathpine, Lowood, Point Cook, Mooliabeenie, Ringwood, Tomago, Gawler, Beverley or Quorn Hall. So I guess it's not even 'in the main' when you count them up. Then you look at some, like Schofields and the main Caversham circuit, they had the triangle but didn't use it, racing in part on taxiways etc.

no i'm in nz, we had bryndwr opened in 1950 fully sealed, was trying o establish whther it was nz's or australasias first circuit.

[jellywrestler]

Milan,yes the Titirangi Motor Cycle Road race ,at least two of the older Bike racers from that day have told me about it ,one of them just recently there's speculation this run twice, was scheduled a third time but the event was moved. the auckland motorcycle club history book mentions this (a second meeting) but no further details

[Allan]

There were motor bike races around the streets of Whakatane in the 1950s.

[jellywrestler]

There were motor bike races around the streets of Whakatane in the 1950s.
i have a 55 program which was the second and a 56 and 57, no circuit map which is something i'd be very interested to pinpoint , do you know where it was allan, also did it run after 1957? tried uploading piccies but the file size is too big and it's nearly midnights....

[Allan]

I don't know exactly but I think somewhere around the High School in Kopeopeo.

[jellywrestler]

This is a List - not complete, I am sure as know of a few others ;

" Street circuits
Cemetery Circuit, Wanganui (a.k.a. Southern Hemisphere's Isle of Man)
Dunedin Street Circuit, Dunedin (see also Southern Festival of Speed)
Paeroa Street Circuit, Paeroa (a.k.a. Battle of the Streets)
Port Nelson Street Circuit, Nelson

ii know of 56 street circuits where motorcycles raced in the north island, without closed circuits, haven't counted the south as yet.

[Roger Dowding]

ii know of 56 street circuits where motorcycles raced in the north island, without closed circuits, haven't counted the south as yet.

One I did forget Jw - the Onetangi Waiheke circuit used in the 1950's - would like to see the list.

There is a list of NZ Motor Racing Circuits that was created a while ago in Australia - Ken H, posted it on a thread here.

[jellywrestler]

the only time Waiheke Island was used in the 1950'si was on the first of january 1950 as the second part of a two day meeting. It was first raced on in 1931 through to early forties and then again after the war

[Roger Dowding]

the only time Waiheke Island was used in the 1950'si was on the first of january 1950 as the second part of a two day meeting. It was first raced on in 1931 through to early forties and then again after the war

Thanks Jw I was unsure - remembered it being talked about in my family when a youngster !

[jellywrestler]

the only time Waiheke Island was used in the 1950'si was on the first of january 1950 as the second part of a two day meeting. It was first raced on in 1931 through to early forties and then again after the war

the NZTT was run on Waiheke from 1931-50, then seagrove for one year then mangere then ardmore then pukekohe

[Milan Fistonic]

Brief report from the NZ Herald on the first TT race on Waiheke. June 3 1931 was a Wednesday, which I thought was a strange day to hold a race, but then I discovered that it was Kings Birthday and a holiday. Obviously not Mondayised like today.

65650

[Oldfart]

mentioned by an old friend was the "Prosperity Grand Prix" on Waiheke after the depression. Does anyone have any info at all?

[Milan Fistonic]

mentioned by an old friend was the "Prosperity Grand Prix" on Waiheke after the depression. Does anyone have any info at all?

The only Prosperity Grand Prix I have heard about is the one held on a street circuit in Orakei on the 29th July 1933. It was won by Arthur Dexter in his Riley

[jellywrestler]

Brief report from the NZ Herald on the first TT race on Waiheke. June 3 1931 was a Wednesday, which I thought was a strange day to hold a race, but then I discovered that it was Kings Birthday and a holiday. Obviously not Mondayised like today.

65650

it was interesting that in depression times they chose to do the 'first' road race on an island in the middle of winter, there were no dry runs on the mainland to speak of, and the fact that is was a wedensday meant travel was even harder. It must have worked as they continued aside from the war for two decades. what's also interesting is that it didn't spark more meetings, even just to practice at or get rankings, there were no north island 'road races' till post war and only cust in the south island.

[Milan Fistonic]

it was interesting that in depression times they chose to do the 'first' road race on an island in the middle of winter, there were no dry runs on the mainland to speak of, and the fact that is was a wedensday meant travel was even harder. It must have worked as they continued aside from the war for two decades. what's also interesting is that it didn't spark more meetings, even just to practice at or get rankings, there were no north island 'road races' till post war and only cust in the south island.

There was a motorcycle race at the Prosperity Grand Prix meeting in 1933. It was won by B. Bray (Rudge) from Len Perry (Velocette) and A. McLaren (New Imperial).

[Roger Dowding]

Interesting, thanks for the details, I was told about them and think my Grandfather on my Mothers side went around 1950, probably with my Dad who loved Motorcycle racing - used to take me to Western Springs in the early 1960's -
Unusual as my Fathers Mother [ my Grandmother ] was living on the Island, Onetangi at the time - there from 1947 to 1980 and her Sister in law my Aunt owned another house in the same road mid 1930's to early 1960's The Aunt passed away in 1962.

Wonder if anyone has a map of the roads used - all shingle in those days I imagine -
Electricity didn't come to island until 1955 so many houses had a petrol/diesel generator to run lights for a time in the evening

Onetangi - before Electricity - early 1950's a Whites Aviation photo..

65658

The two family houses upper left, the Aunts hard left and Grandma's across the road - no power poles in the photo - The Onetangi Hotel is surrounded by Pine Trees in the centre by the Beach.

[Roger Dowding]

The Track - part of an article on the History of the NZ TT Races on Waiheke Island - image from Jellywrestler.

It all looks familiar to me as have been going to Waiheke - specifically at Onetangi, since Christmas 1947 as a Three Month Old -last there in January 2020 - you do the Maths !.

65669

It used three roads ;

Onetangi Road - the main road from Ostend to Onetangi, described as FAST STRAIGHT.

Sea View Road - a windy road that runs on a ridge up above Onetangi beach and then winds down towards Ostend.
It begins at Devils Corner - Top right and ends at Centre Left

Ostend Road - which becomes Onetangi Road at the O'Brien Road [ Rocky Bay ] intersection - where the TRIG is.
Bottom Centre of the Map

An unusual map of Waiheke - in the Hauraki Gulf from the Shirley Maddock Book " Islands of the Gulf " -
Map does not point North as is usual.
The Book, a copy owned by my late Uncle Eddie Dowding of NSCC fame - he inherited his mothers house at Onetangi, which is now with his for our family to use.

65670

[jellywrestler]

Bell block New Plymouth street circuit 1980's Does anybody know anything about this circuit please folks?

[Roger Dowding]

Jw - nothing known of that but did find this ;

" Bruce Ovenden and Dave Reader were New Plymouth's only entrants at the 1960 Grand Prix at Bell Block Aerodrome. " - presume you have that one on your list.
and this photo - article by Graeme Duckett is on Stuff NZ [ scuse spelling on the image ]

65896

[Roger Dowding]

Good article here about a Track I did not l know ;


" http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/features/9576052/Speedway-thrills "

Part of the article relates to Speedway Midgets and Bikes ;

" Motorcycle racing was also popular, and events from the early 1920s were held at the New Plymouth racecourse and drew large crowds. These events included road racing at Tikorangi, Bell Block Aerodrome, the Paritutu circuit and Patea, and scramble events.

From 1937, midget car racing was introduced into New Zealand. By 1950, only two places were holding race meetings regularly - Auckland's Western Springs, where it all started, and at Blanford Park after World War II. Later on, it would be held at the Olympic stadium at Newmarket.

Locally, a small racetrack was built on the corner of Mahoetahi and Devon roads in 1949, and was used until 1950. It was known as the Bell Block Speedway track and used for motorcycle racing and midgets.

In 1950, Waiwhakaiho Show Grounds were chosen as the most suitable venue for speedway events and, after much opposition from the A&P Society, permission was granted and an agreement drawn up with the newly formed Taranaki Midget Car Racing Club. "

Nothing about the 1980's though.

[stubuchanan]

it was interesting that in depression times they chose to do the 'first' road race on an island in the middle of winter, there were no dry runs on the mainland to speak of, and the fact that is was a wedensday meant travel was even harder. It must have worked as they continued aside from the war for two decades. what's also interesting is that it didn't spark more meetings, even just to practice at or get rankings, there were no north island 'road races' till post war and only cust in the south island.

The choice of Waiheke seems in line with Australians using Phillip Island for their early car racing. Interesting, too, that both islands have places named after seaside places in UK and Ireland. Cowes, Blackpool , Ostend on Waiheke and Cowes, Ventnor and Rhyll (should be Rhyl N Wales) on Phillip Island, and many , many more around Port Philllip.
This seems to be a follow-on from car and motorbike racing on the Isle of Man when roads couldn't be closed (?for motor sport) in mainland Britain, only Isle of Man, and Ireland (Northern wasn't separated from rest of Ireland until 1922).

There is no mention of prohibitions in NZ or Oz at the time. Perhaps Waiheke was always a place where the law was a bit further away and in smaller numbers. Just like Great Barrier NZ where the locals are complaining about lockdown- breaking boaties turning up for Easter weekend.

Stu

OOPs : Ostend is in Belgium, and there is a Belgium St where the circuit runs through Ostend ,Waiheke

[stubuchanan]

The choice of June 3rd was because it would have been a Public Holiday for the King's Birthday. It was also my mother's birthday, so when it fell on a weekday she got a day off school or work!. It was later "Mondayised" .

Later TT's were held on Auckland Provincial Anniversary Weekend (nearest Monday to 29 January).

Stu

[Milan Fistonic]

I explained about the date back on post 317

[Ray Bell]

Most of the state governments in Australia did have bans or racing on public roads, whether they were legislated as bans or the road use regulations required applications which were much easier to reject than approve...

Phillip Island got away with it because they claimed they weren't part of the mainland. The government, it seems, looked the other way because it was good for the tourist industry there. But a few years later the police stamped hard on an attempt at a race meeting in Benalla, stopping it before any racing took place (AFIK) and then authorities prevented the use of Albert Park for racing.

Motorcycles tended to be looked upon more leniently than cars, so races for bikes at Goulburn and the Vale circuit near Bathurst, for instance, ran for years before cars got a look-in in NSW.

In Queensland there was a ban and an attempt to get that ban lifted was made with the running of a 'High Speed Reliability Trial' at Woody Point, again a bit of a local tourist outlet. The event looked, felt and smelled like a race and afterwards there was so much animosity due to the behaviour of some of the drivers that the ban was further cemented in secure legislation. Only the running of the AGP at Southport when the Gold Coast was beginning to grow saw that altered.

Western Australia was more fortunate, there the closure of roads to run races was at the behest of the local councils. The club (clubs?) running the events were always careful to ensure that the circuits contained a lot of tight corners and no long straights so that speeds were kept down and safety was good. Except for when they ran the AGP at Narrogin and ran two long straights out of town and also at Geraldton in 1965 when a fast back section saw an horrendous Holden rollover. That was the last of such racing in WA.

South Australia allowed racing from 1936 and the SCCoSA did a great job of picking out circuits and running the events. But a ban came in 1952 and that ended that.

[Roger Dowding]

We know about Beach and other venues that were used ;

- Muriwai, Beach races in the 1920's [pre NSCC ]to 1940's/50's , after Northern Sports car Club was formed in 1942

- Sprints at places like Aka Aka Road, near Waiuku,

- Hillclimbs at Wharepapa, Ostrich Farm and others.

Have been given some photos by Duncan Fox - the Arthur Siddall collection of events in the 1940's 1942 to 1949.

They include events
- Orewa - Beach Races,
- Sprints at Seagrove Airfield and " Time Trials "at Whitford
- Hillclimbs at Pokeno, and Taylors Bay - - It is in Hillsborough below Frederick Street.

Plus more on the regular Trials at Starting and / or finishing Helensville, using Mackies Rest on the Scenic Drive for a Mud Section and Starting at the Auckland Railway Station.

a couple of photos from Helensville in 1946 - the scene is the same as seen in the Roycroft Book by Scott Thompson
" Up to Speed " and another photo that I had in my collection.

65905
Photo not cropped at this stage

The photo from my own collection provided to me by my late Uncle Eddie Dowding back in the 1970's he and his wife with the Riley Ken Hemus and Mate in the Singer
65904

Will be putting the collection on the Northern Sports car Club thread when sorted - there are 30 pages and around 130 photos.
Thanks to Duncan Fox for the images from the Album of Arthur Siddall - a competitor and member of NSCC in the 1940's

[jellywrestler]

Jw - nothing known of that but did find this ;

" Bruce Ovenden and Dave Reader were New Plymouth's only entrants at the 1960 Grand Prix at Bell Block Aerodrome. " - presume you have that one on your list.
and this photo - article by Graeme Duckett is on Stuff NZ [ scuse spelling on the image ]

65896

yes thank you, I was doing this one today, old aerial maps in three areas of new zealand, including new plymouth were unavailable when i started a year ago, but checked yesterday and found some. i have sent an map to a gentleman show was there at that meeting and with a whole lot of numbers denoting features and am ringing him tommorow to confirm exact track. appreciate the info thank you Roger. Here's a photo he sent me that he'd took back then. I'd post more piccies but the file size is quite small on this forum.

[jellywrestler]

The choice of Waiheke seems in line with Australians using Phillip Island for their early car racing.

not so sure, but interesting theory, phillip island was by no means the first racetrack in aussie, nor was waiheke our first road racing circuit.

[Ray Bell]

Were motorcycles ever raced at Phillip Island? I mean on the circuit used for the AGP...

According to Fast Tracks (admittedly a book primarily about car circuits in Australia), motorcycles raced on a longer 12+ mile circuit which included most of the AGP circuit from a date somewhat later in 1928 than the 100 Miles Road Race, which later became renamed as the Australian Grand Prix.

By the way, everyone I've ever met who was present for the 1928 100 Miles Road Race called it by that name. As if they weren't comfortable with the renaming of it as the 'Australian Grand Prix.'

[jellywrestler]

Were motorcycles ever raced at Phillip Island? I mean on the circuit used for the AGP...

According to Fast Tracks (admittedly a book primarily about car circuits in Australia), motorcycles raced on a longer 12+ mile circuit which included most of the AGP circuit from a date somewhat later in 1928 than the 100 Miles Road Race, which later became renamed as the Australian Grand Prix.

By the way, everyone I've ever met who was present for the 1928 100 Miles Road Race called it by that name. As if they weren't comfortable with the renaming of it as the 'Australian Grand Prix.'

yes plenty of times

[Ray Bell]

Specifically on the circuit used for the AGP?

If so, were they support races? Or their own meetings?

The one mentioned by Terry in his book was definitely not at a car race meeting.

[jellywrestler]

the GP started at eastern creek, now sydney motorsport park, i went to meetings before that at phillip island and they've raced bikes there for decades

[jellywrestler]

found this earlier today, book to big to look for more without 30 others things grabbing my eye

[Ray Bell]

Are you trying to test me out or what?

I said the AGP, to me that means Australian Grand Prix and by the context it means the AGPs for cars, not bikes.

So, to revert to my question, did bikes ever race on the Phillip Island road circuit used for the AGP?

[jellywrestler]

Are you trying to test me out or what?

I said the AGP, to me that means Australian Grand Prix and by the context it means the AGPs for cars, not bikes.

So, to revert to my question, did bikes ever race on the Phillip Island road circuit used for the AGP?

not at all, why would i take the time to photograph stuff, reduce the data and post, the bike meeting is also called the australian grand prix too.

[Ray Bell]

But clearly the timing and the context showed I was not talking about a bike race...

[jellywrestler]

Were motorcycles ever raced at Phillip Island? I mean on the circuit used for the AGP...





But clearly the timing and the context showed I was not talking about a bike race...
it seemed pretty clear to me, sorry I was confused Ray

[Ray Bell]

Not wanting to prolong this, but the next paragraph gave the full meaning...

"According to Fast Tracks (admittedly a book primarily about car circuits in Australia), motorcycles raced on a longer 12+ mile circuit which included most of the AGP circuit from a date somewhat later in 1928 than the 100 Miles Road Race, which later became renamed as the Australian Grand Prix."

The circuit the Australian Grand Prix for motorcycles has used is just under three miles. It was three miles, but they shortened the inner section a tad because the ground there was always wet and caused it to break up.

[jellywrestler]

i finally managed to get this on you tube. There's some motorcycle footage from twyford 1964 Ahuriri 1956 and some cars at ahuriri later on plus some other stuff too


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ITAtA0sHF4&fbclid=IwAR137OzIynO-KSKTZKqngEGPpRxM-u2p3abRU9EU2RMRDUYbP8LBYDaqLpE

[Roger Dowding]

Cars from the Arthur Siddall albums, thanks to Duncan Fox, The Northern Sports Car Club albums
There are several pages of racing at Seagrove - Will put the NSCC related stuff on that thread too !
This is just one of the pages Event in 1947;

66173

Cars a report from an article event in 1949 - thanks to Bob Homewood - another NSCC guy who has a good archive of NSCC early years - not the 1940's but more into the 1950's and 1960's
One page of Arthurs album is from November 1949 - could be the same event.
The article mentions a lot of NSCC members and also mention the " Competitors Car Club of Auckland " holding an event in November 1948 the season opener - was that actually Northern Sports Car Club ?

66170

Bikes - some details of a Motorcycle event at Seagrove in 1947 the Magazine report from December 1947 of an event in November - also from Bob Homewood - this is for " jellywrestler "- have sent it to him separately.

66171

66172

[jellywrestler]

today taurangas old photo news went on line, good resource https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10157488865183720&set=oa.952248448522968&type=3&theater

[Allan]

If you go through the rest of the booklet you come across this colour photo. Someone may be able to identify the cars and drivers for us.

66193

[Milan Fistonic]

No 7 - Ken Sager Lotus 20

Green & Yellow Cooper-Holden - Brian Rice

No 18 Ken Kaye - Kato Special

Red Car at the back is Ivan Cranch's Maserati-Jaguar

The red car at front left could be John Riley's Lola Mk 1 sports car.

[jellywrestler]

bell block 1980's, my understanding is that there were car races there, does anyone know anything about it? thanks

[jellywrestler]

talking to someone today local and asked about a circuit in wingate in lower hutt, he confirmed there was but no more info on dates etc.does anyone here know anything about it? sounds like 1950's

[John McKechnie]

No 7 - Ken Sager Lotus 20

Green & Yellow Cooper-Holden - Brian Rice

No 18 Ken Kaye - Kato Special

Red Car at the back is Ivan Cranch's Maserati-Jaguar

The red car at front left could be John Riley's Lola Mk 1 sports car.

John Courtney owns and runs the Kato Special

[Roger Dowding]

An old Airfield circuit - 3 runways with connecting Taxiways in the middle of farmland, near the Rakaia River, at Hororata, close to Rolleston ..

Te Pirita ..
This is an image he sent me.
1st added as a better image..

66513

** 2nd photo - originally posted .the track overlay is in the wrong position.. . oops.
66512

[jellywrestler]

yeah second one didn't have the b and w image scaled to the correct spot. would love to see photos of the racing that took place there, beleieved to be one meeting only

[khyndart in CA]

I recently saw this old race photo from the 1915 San Diego Exposition Road Race and recognized the names of the streets.

When I first arrived in California, I had no money, no job, no tools and no immigration papers but I had a return ticket to London in case the lovely woman I was after, threw me out. Well I found a job near this road circuit working in a British Foreign Car Shop where Jimmy the Scotchman who always had a flask of whisky in his tool box, was a wonderful mechanic and mentor also set me up so I could get settled in and allow me to marry my bride 46 years ago on July 6th, so this area has a special memory for me.

" On January 9th, 1915, the world’s fastest race-car drivers vied to complete 305 miles on a six-mile elliptical circuit of dirt roads for a winning purse of $5,000. Of the eighteen starters, including Barney Oldfield, Eddie Rickenbacker, Earl Cooper, and San Diego’s own “Bad Bill” Carlson, only five cars finished the race, which was won by Earl Cooper."

66825
The # 4 Mercer leads the # 7 Peugeot driven by Eddie Rickenbacker around the corner from Canon St onto Rosecrans St.

The same corner today does not look nearly as exciting but the beer and fish and chips taste good !
66826


(Ken H..to be continued.)

[Ray Bell]

Do you have a map, Ken?

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
My map is a bit rough but the course circuit was on roads still used today not far from San Diego Airport.
66827

66828
(Note location of the British Foreign Car Shop.)

66829
1915 winner climbing Chatsworth Blvd.

66830
Chatsworth Blvd today from approx. same location.


(Ken H..)

[Ray Bell]

Great stuff...

My lap of the Savannah circuit was interesting:

https://dodgeforum.com/forum/members-rides/426498-ride-along-with-me-4.html#post3459183

21 miles in one version...

[Roger Dowding]

Ken H,
great story, good to see you posting again, after your medical bit got sorted
I knew of races at Coronado - the Airforce Base but not the Road Circuit at San Diego - even though I visited a mate in 1982 who ran this Healey and came from San Diego, is still there and still into Healey's although mainly Sprite's these days - Terry Cowan -he may deal with Moss Motors too.

66840

BMC BOY on the left, Bryan Harris also from NZ, and Terry Cowan.. whose workshop was called the Toy Shop - back in 1982 ..

[Ray Bell]

Those races were done and dusted before Healeys were ever a twinkle in Donald Healey's eye...

As were the ones at Savannah.

[khyndart in CA]

Roger,
I have driven these roads many times and it wasn't until last month that I learned about this 1915 race taking place.
Thanks for allowing me to ramble on once again, I hope to start work again within 2 weeks.

The Start / Finish line was set up towards the end of a two mile straight along Rosecrans St. and the main grandstand was situated to show spectators the cars going by at their top speeds around 100 MPH. But many of the crowd assembled at the corners as they wanted to see the action at those points.
Some scenes of the start to the 1915 race.
66841
(Note the winning Stutz # 8 started away back in the field. )

66842
Waiting for the flag to drop. The # 3 Tahis has an interesting torpedo shaped extra coolant reservoir above the engine.

66843
Temperatures and tempers are rising in this photo of the start as the cars are about to head north along Rosecrans.
Air pollution apparently was not an issue back then !

66844
The start line area today looking north along Rosecrans St towards the first corner.

66845
The start line area today looking back south along the Rosecrans two mile straight.


(Ken H..)

[Paul B]

Gee, there are some great old bangers in those pics above, I love the open cars of that vintage.

Here is a picture I found of the old Levin race track.
66846

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
I have been delayed with my inputs because I have been reading your wonderful detailed writings of travelling around the States. Thankyou for all the good information, better than any travel guide.

Paul, I agree about these race cars from this era. Magnificent machines and I will always remember watching Len Southward drive Mr. Muldoon around Pukekohe before the 1976 NZGP. in his 1915 Stutz. # 5.
66853
KH photo.

66854



Ken H.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by khyndart in CA
Ray,
I have been delayed with my inputs because I have been reading your wonderful detailed writings of travelling around the States. Thankyou for all the good information, better than any travel guide.....

Glad to have you join in, Ken...

The best part is the first trip, in which my late wife's diary features. She had different views to me on many of the things we saw, such a shame she couldn't make the later journeys.

It's no quick read, though, as I'm sure you realise. I think I'm up to 3,500 photos and maps so far. Seventeen circuits plus bits of the Targa Florio and Mille Miglia.

With regard to this San Diego circuit, I have a friend who lives there in San Diego and who I visited on the second trip. He used to have a big part in the Nissan team in the US, though he came from Adelaide. I'm sure he doesn't know about this track.

[khyndart in CA]

The 1915 field description;
With the driver and his "Mechanician"

66856

66857
Famous American driver Barney Oldfield rounding the corner onto Rosecrans in his Maxwell # 14.

66860
1915.Heading along Rosecrans. Note the power poles and spectator parking !

66859
1915. Eddie Rickenbacher, who later went on to be a famous pilot and air ace, driving his Peugeot down the straight completing another lap. (Note the position of the pole and the spectators !)
( Were the power lines moved away for the event and there was not enough time to move the pole ?
All opinions are welcome !) They were two brave / stupid spectators !



( Ken H..)

[jellywrestler]

The 1915 field description;
With the driver and his "Mechanician"

66856

66857
Famous American driver Barney Oldfield rounding the corner onto Rosecrans in his Maxwell # 14.

66860
1915.Heading along Rosecrans. Note the power poles and spectator parking !

66859
1915. Eddie Rickenbacher, who later went on to be a famous pilot and air ace, driving his Peugeot down the straight completing another lap. (Note the position of the pole and the spectators !)



( Ken H..)

no flour spray cans to mark the hazard in those days either

[Ray Bell]

They certainly knew how to throw up grandstands those days...

[khyndart in CA]

In 1915 spectator safety was not a top priority as seen in this image showing # 19 Duesenberg powering through the turn going up Chatsworth Blvd.

66872

Here an MGB powers through the same corner in this 2019 photo.

66873


(Ken H..)

[khyndart in CA]

1915. The illustrious Barney Oldfield with the usual cigar clenched between his teeth, driving his Maxwell down Canon St.
His mechanician, George Hill, is hanging on but they seem to be enjoying themselves.
(Note the horses off to the right with their harnesses set up to grade the track surface. The track was surfaced with disintegrated granite. DG. )

66886



(Ken H..)

[Ray Bell]

We call that 'decomposed granite' here, Ken...

Wonderful stuff, smooths out nicely and provides a good slippery surface.

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
I got my 1915 DG input from this;
66887

[Ray Bell]

I see... 'as DG was called back then.'

So maybe they now call it 'decomposed granite' as I'm used to.

This is all pretty good stuff, Ken, can you keep it coming?

[khyndart in CA]

The three Peugeot entered in the race all had engine failures due to broken connecting rods which may have been due to oil supply issues during the long climbs on the course compared to racing at Indianapolis and Savannah etc. on flat tracks.
Due to the war in Europe it was hard / impossible to get replacement parts. One of the drivers, Bob Burman, made arrangements to have his own replacement engine built by his friend, Harry Miller after this event.

66893
Bob Burman at the 1915 start with mechanician Eric Schrader in Peugeot # 6.

66894
After 7 laps of the 6 mile course the Burman Peugeot was out with a broken connecting rod. Burman and Schrader checking the damage.
(Excuse what may be a dumb question but what did this machine use for brakes ?)

66895
Another Peugeot # 9 out with broken connecting rod.
( Judging by the hats the ladies got well dressed up for this racing occasion in San Diego. ( Jan. 9th. 1915.)




(Ken H..)

[Oldfart]

The Peugeots came from racing in Europe which were not flat courses. As you say Ken it sounds like a lubrication issue, but for me it doesn't stack up to say the hills were causal. Maybe the mechanician had a role in pumping oil as they did for fuel tank pressure? I'm now on the hunt for info! Keep them coming please.
Brakes, rear only, just like my one. I could post a pic, but would be OT.

[khyndart in CA]

Rhys,
Why was the braking to the rear wheels only on such a large machine ?



Ken

[Ray Bell]

Simple...

4-wheel brakes were yet to be developed.

Oh yes, there were hills...

https://i.postimg.cc/HsNtZDry/0622-06-longstraight.jpg

This is the 5-mile straight on the circuit on which these cars made their successful debut. And this...

https://i.postimg.cc/fT1x7cP7/0622-14-hills.jpg

...is a part of the return leg on that circuit. Hills were not steep, but they were there, and there was plenty of sustained speed.

These photos are going up tonight in the next episode of my trip thread. My last day in Europe.

[Oldfart]

It was probably a whole lot more windy when they raced there too!

[Oldfart]

Brakes, check this out! http://www.grandprixhistory.org/peug1912.htm
Perhaps the Americans took them off because they show on the site I have copied. It doesn't give the year though for the pics showing brakes, although does say 1912 .
Lubrication; reading more I discover they were dry sump engines, front and rear mains were roller bearings, and the centre one a double row ball bearing. It doesn't give any clues to big ends.
Another link https://primotipo.com/2015/12/11/191213-peugeot-gp-car-especially-its-engines/

[Ray Bell]

I went through all that stuff and saw no front brakes...

A transmission brake and, in the case of the EX3 and L76 models, external contracting rear brakes. Internal expanding rears came on the 3-litre models built from the end of 1913.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Oldfart
It was probably a whole lot more windy when they raced there too!

Windy? I don't see the relevance.

[Oldfart]

Windy? I don't see the relevance.

Windy road (not wind) sharper corners, steeper climbs than the smoothed out roads a century later?

[Oldfart]

I went through all that stuff and saw no front brakes...

A transmission brake and, in the case of the EX3 and L76 models, external contracting rear brakes. Internal expanding rears came on the 3-litre models built from the end of 1913.
OK, on Grandprixhistory link I posted, first photo after the one of Zuccarelli at the drawing board, 4 cars lined up, if those aren't front brakes then they carried pie plates around :)
Next photo #5 front brakes?
Small photos at the bottom, car #5 one with OS on a signboard, maybe at Coupe de La Sarthe (which we now know as Circuit Le Mans) front brakes?
Next one, possibly same corner but exit, car 19 brakes?
Last photo, side on, brakes?
I guess they could be later photos than the site says, but they tally with the entry list.
There is so much conflicting information on this topic though it's very hard to make any definitive statement I believe, without any chance of being disagreed with.
According to "Blue Blood" by Serge Bellu Peugeot used front brakes in 1914 and those cars went to the US.

[Oldfart]

Ken, sent you a message.

[Allan]

"Winding" perhaps.

[Ray Bell]

All the pictures with front brakes are the 1914 models...

Right click on the photo of the four cars lined up and click on 'inspect element' and you'll see in the title to the photo there that it's the 1914 Peugeot team.

Then you'll see that the front of these cars is narrower than the ones from the 1913 races, and the American races at San Diego and elsewhere as shown by Ken.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Allan
"Winding" perhaps.

These roads have not changed signficantly, other than being sealed.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9mcTulLtNrY/Xc21fqJw5EI/AAAAAAAAHD8/JrMxFWDLsjguSlgvTcHWPyIZ29C_VPAHACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Amiens%2B1913FsmNEW.png

Except, of course, at places where modern 'incursions' have re-routed them or cut them short. This has happened at the 'sharp' end of the Amiens circuit, which you can check on Google Earth, working NW from Boves.

[khyndart in CA]

Whatever the braking it must have been scary coming down the 2 mile Rosecrans straight at speeds approaching 100 MPH and making the first corner to go up the hill back in 1915.
I have a special memory of rear wheel brakes when my mate took me to the Mount in his early all drum Mini and on the way home over the Kaimas it was raining and every time he braked the car went all over the road so we stopped and put two small vise grips on the front brake hoses and with me applying some handbrake to take up the rear brake adjustment we made it back in time for him to help his dad with the milking ! (The brakes worked great'.)


Ken H

[Ray Bell]

Tyre technology at the time would have been no help either...

Brave men.

[khyndart in CA]

Here is a listing of components on the 1915 race cars. (Even with TIRE brands !)

66913



Ken H

[Roger Dowding]

Here is a listing of components on the 1915 race cars. (Even with TIRE brands !)

66913



Ken H

A few names that are still around many that are not ;
Splitdorf, Raja
Some of the cars - specials " I built my own "
Brilliant, Ken H

[khyndart in CA]

I just had to add to the Peugeot brake questions and put this information in.

" "There were two EX3 type 1913 Grand Prix Peugeots in the U.S. after May 1914. Peugeot sent the two cars (i.e. Goux's and Boillot's) over for the 1914 Indianapolis 500, and sold them both after the race. One went to Kauffman and the other was purchased by Erbes." ( From John Glenn Printz )

The Bob Burman (Erbes) Peugeot # 9 at San Diego in 1915 was the # 7 car that French driver Georges Boillot drove at the 1914 Indianapolis which was a 1913 EX3 Peugeot with an L56 engine..

This photo clearly shows only a brake drum at the rear which was a feature to come back and haunt the racing fraternity in 1916.
66914

In 1914 this ($ 7 million beauty ) was built by Peugeot and had drum brakes all around.
66915

This Bonhams site has some good Peugeot information from that period.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24733/lot/408/





( Ken H)

[khyndart in CA]

As quoted from the above site;
" In January 1915 Bob Burman destroyed the engine of his Peugeot L56 in a race at Point Loma (San Diego), California. Peugeot declined on account of the war to provide a replacement. Burman turned to Harry Miller in Los Angeles, then the ranking genius in racing engine carburetion, not only to repair the bits and pieces of his shattered Peugeot but to configure it to the new 300 cubic inch limitation.

In the process of doing the almost-impossible – delivering a competitive 300 cubic inch engine to Burman in time for Indianapolis – Miller and Fred Offenhauser succeeded also in examining the innermost workings of the Peugeot L56. A 50-year history of Miller, Offenhauser and Meyer-Drake dual overhead camshaft engines followed."

[khyndart in CA]

Some more information from various sources regarding Bob Burman and his 1913 Peugeot with a mostly new engine.

" The AAA contest board was reducing the displacement rule to 300 cu. in., and Burman was in a quandary. He took the car to Harry Miller’s shop in Los Angeles. Reportedly, he paid $4000 (probably more than he paid for the car to begin with) for a rebuild to meet the new displacement rule. A new engine was created from a few parts of the Peugeot engine in collaboration with Miller and Fred Offenhauser, Miller’s machinist, both well-known names in racing now. This engine was the first to use Miller’s “Alloyanum” lightweight pistons. Miller was using the alloy to make carburetor bodies, and coincidentally, most of the Point Loma race cars used Miller’s Marvel carburetor. The success of this engine generated a lot of interest and was the start of Miller’s and Offenhauser’s racing engine reputations.
In April 1916 he raced in Corona, California. The town had a three mile long, 70ft wide circular main street called the Grand Boulevard than ran around the city center. Races were held there in 1913 and 1914 with great success. After a break of some 18 months a third race was organised in 1916.

Corona is a city between Anaheim (Disneyland) and Riverside in California. Today the circular street can still be clearly seen although surrounded by freeways etc.
66920
2020 Google map.

66921
Looking away from the start line area. (2020)

66922
The Corona 1916 finish line area in 2020.

66923
The same area in 1916 after the racing was and crowds of perhaps 100,000 had to make their way home !


(Ken H..)

[Oldfart]

Alloyanum, an interesting name that reminded me of being told about the front suspension arms on the Healey (before Austin). They were made from "pistominium" according to the Healey family. When I asked what that was, "melted down Merlin pistons" was the reply.

[Ray Bell]

Not as good as the opening of The World's Fastest Indian.

"One of Ford, two of Chevy..."

[khyndart in CA]

The 1916 race continued;
66928
Bob Burman and Eric Schrader in their # 7 Peugeot before the start of the fateful race.
With the Miller built engine it was the fastest car on the track but it still only had rear wheel braking.

66929
A scene during the race showing how close the crowd was to the track.

" Burman had led most of the race but about 12 laps from the finish, the rear wheel of his Peugeot collapsed, sending it crashing off the track at over 100 mph. The car hit a parked spectator car and rolled into the crowd. Burman and his riding mechanic, Erick Schroeder(Schrader), were thrown out and landed nearly 50 feet away. "

66930

" Schroeder died instantly along with William Speer, a track steward. A number of other spectators were also injured. Burman was taken to Riverside hospital where he died shortly after. The tragedy prompted his friends, Barney Oldfield and Harry Arminius Miller, to join forces to design and build a racing car that incorporated a roll cage inside a protective streamlined driver's compartment. The result was the famous Goldern Submarine."

66931

66932

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2014/08/27/one-off-handbuilt-car-pays-tribute-to-barney-oldfields-groundbreaking-golden-submarine
(The story of a "Golden Submarine" replica with 4 wheel brakes.)

" The events at Corona in 1916 effectively ended racing away from the coast in Southern California for almost 40 years."



(Ken H)

[Ray Bell]

Superb history lesson, Ken...

Thank you for that. I knew nothing of any of this. I guess my reading has always been more Euro-centric, Australian and some Indianapolis. Even Savannah's big races have required specific searching.

[khyndart in CA]

We had a family gathering last weekend and reminisced about how we were in Spain 10 rears ago at the time of Easter. 2011.
We stayed in Barcelona before driving to meet our daughter in Pamplona as she walked the famous religious hike across Spain known as the Camino de Santiago. clip by Peter Windsor
While in Barcelona I made sure to at least drive the Montjuic Circuit which was closed to major races after a tragic accident in 1975.
It was known as a fast but dangerous circuit but to some such as Chris Amon it was one of their favorite tracks to drive on.
I was too busy driving to capture any decent photos but I found this clip by Peter Windsor which ably gives the history and sights of this challenging circuit. Compare this to some of todays tracks except for Monaco.
I did walk from the top of the hill by the Olympic Stadium down to the first turn hairpin and thought of the 1969 scenes where the Lotus 49 rear wings collapsed, miraculously without killing Jochen Rindt or Graham Hill.
69315

69316
Hyndman wandering aimlessly around the streets of Montjuic Park. April 2011.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wont7Ns0FdY&t=38s
Peter Windsor's informative tour of the Montjuic Circuit.




(Ken H )

[Ray Bell]

I can tell by his comments that he'd have loved to have driven the Nota Formula Vee he used at Warwick Farm around there...

And a good many quicker cars too. But through his commentary you could tell he was referring to Tasman Cup times - "Just imagine Jochen Rindt here in the Lotus 49!" Of course, Peter saw him in the rain at the Farm. And he's a Jim Clark fan through and through and spent time with Jim just eight weeks or so before he was killed.

[Oldfart]

Have you come across the site www.circuitsofthepast.com site. Some interesting stuff.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, that Dutch (?) enthusiast's site...

In fact, he quotes some of my writing about a circuit, or maybe two. He comes up with some very interesting circuits.

[jellywrestler]

Have you come across the site www.circuitsofthepast.com site. Some interesting stuff.

i'm not far from publishing a book on motorcycle road racing circtuis in new zealand, 88 circuits in the north island and still to do a final tally but looking at around 63 in the south island 151 ish all up

[Roger Dowding]

i'm not far from publishing a book on motorcycle road racing circtuis in new zealand, 88 circuits in the north island and still to do a final tally but looking at around 63 in the south island 151 ish all up

Go for it - looking forward to seeing the result. A car man but, bikes are a huge part of the NZ Motor Racing scene.. ehh !! Spyda.

[jellywrestler]

many of the circuits ran cars as well of course.

[Roger Dowding]

Nobody mentioned Seagrove yet.
Southern shore of the Manukau harbour. I went looking in the early to mid 1980s, there were still some of the hexagon concrete slabs evident even then.
Just had a look on the Auckland GIS viewer, I was surpised to see that the airstrips are still very evident. They are not clear at all from ground level!

A lot of stuff is scattered through this thread on Seagrove and recently quite a few photos from the Arthur Siddall albums now in Duncan Fox hands [ found at Whitford Tip by Duncan ].

Could be worth putting into a separate story - a bit like the Matamata thread that " Oldfart "started a few years ago.

I have also recently acquired a couple of Maps of the Seagrove Track - one from the 1940's and the other a more recent Google image.
There was a book written about Seagrove some years ago - must check out the details.

" jellywrestler " is writing a book on New Zealand Motorcycle Racing and has quite a bit of information on the track from a Two Wheeled perspective.

[jellywrestler]

A lot of stuff is scattered through this thread on Seagrove and recently quite a few photos from the Arthur Siddall albums now in Duncan Fox hands [ found at Whitford Tip by Duncan ].

Could be worth putting into a separate story - a bit like the Matamata thread that " Oldfart "started a few years ago.

I have also recently acquired a couple of Maps of the Seagrove Track - one from the 1940's and the other a more recent Google image.
There was a book written about Seagrove some years ago - must check out the details.

" jelliewrestler " is writing a book on New Zealand Motorcycle Racing and has quite a bit of information on the track from a Two Wheeled perspective.

Seagrove.... Where's that? by Max Poole I got a copy from Max, was about $90 he gets them done in very small runs, from memory he only really got what was pre ordered rather than kept a couple in stock. covers a bit on the car racing, more on the bikes. My book covers 156 differnt circuits in new zealand. this includes closed circuits, airfield circuits, street circuits and road racing circuits, (coutryside venues) it's getting close to being published, and i'll pop in here and advertise it no doubt. I will be selling it myself, at this stage apart from selected motorcycle shops that's my plan. A number of the circuits of course included cars, or probably more correct, the cars ran a meeting and invited the bikes.

[khyndart in CA]

If one lands at Los Angeles Airport and heads north toward Santa Barbara on Interstate Highway 405, a few miles up the road you can go west on Interstate Highway 10 toward the Pacific Ocean and Santa Monica. (Remember I have mentioned previously hat the north to south highways have odd numbers and the east to west highways are even numbered. Just remember that when you come to visit !)
In 1909 Santa Monica had established a road course for the "ill handling, temperamental machines "of that era. They were heavy, high torque beasts which required long stretches of straight road to get up to full speeds. Therefore some of the Vanderbilt Cup circuits were long, such as the Savannah, Georgia circuit which was over 17 miles around ! This meant that spectators wandered around without restrictions and race drivers had to also contend with the occasional dog or horse on the course.
The Santa Monica course was 8.4 miles and had races there from 1909 to 1919.

69882




The same roads can be driven on today.

(Ken H )

[Ray Bell]

You could always see if it's on here:

https://oscarplada.blogspot.com/

Oscar does brilliant maps.

[khyndart in CA]

Thanks Ray,
That first map was pretty cruddy.
After the start going in an anti-clockwise direction the first corner was a left hander onto the almost 4 mile straight along Wilshire Blvd.
That corner was named Dead Man's Curve or Death Corner and although it was the scene of some hair raising accidents there were no fatalities at this spot over the 10 years of racing at Santa Monica.
The accidents were often caused by the failure of the wooden wheels and tire blow outs as tires were still in the early stages of handling the strains of racing.
A popular tire at the time was the Diamond brand.

This is a scene which is remarkable that it was captured by the early cameras at exactly the same moment from the front and the rear.
1914 as the race leader John Marquis in his Sunbeam, rolled after a tire blew rounding Dead Man's Curve amazingly the occupants were not killed and Marquis was pulled from the wreckage and lived to drive another day.
69883

Another popular driver, Eddie Pullen crashed at the same corner during the 1914 Vanderbilt Cup Race. He also was leading in his Mercer when a tire blew. Neither he nor his mechanician were seriously injured and were back racing the same car two days later !
These guys were tough and very brave !

69884

( Eddie Pullen has an appointment with the barriers, as a wheel breaks loose. Note spectators (left) running for their lives, the brave camera-man, and onlookers up a telegraph pole. )





Ken H..

[khyndart in CA]

The same corner today at Wilshire Blvd and Ocean Avenue in Santa Monica is not quite as exciting as it was in 1914.
69890
(Google maps.)

(Ken H)

[khyndart in CA]

In 1909 before it became a popular track and European cars arrived, Santa Monica hosted some early US manufacturers as seen in this listing of the race results.
69892


The winning race car was a "Apperson Jackrabbit"
69893

Second place was a Chadwick racer # 16 driven by Bruno Seibel.
69896




Also in the field was popular local driver Ted Tetzlaff driving a Lozier

69895


69897



( ( Ken H )

[Ray Bell]

It must have been fun racing that 1912 model in 1909!

[Roger Dowding]

It must have been fun racing that 1912 model in 1909!

Ray, Ken H said a Lozier not that Lozier .. Cheeky beggar ..

[khyndart in CA]

Roger,
Ray Bell was correct as at the time he posted I had carelessly put in a fine rendition of a 1912 Chadwick in action.

I changed my post as I knew I would be corrected from afar !


Ken H

[Roger Dowding]

" changed my post " Yep done that a few times too !! As you know ..

Cheers Ken H,

Roger

[khyndart in CA]

I am amazed at how many automobile manufacturers were in the USA at the early part of the 20th century and were mostly gone within 25 years.
.
The Lozier automobile was a prime example.

" Loziers were top line luxury cars and for a time were the most expensive cars produced in the United States. The 1910 model line featured cars priced between US$4,600 and US$7,750. The same year, a Cadillac could be had for about US$1,600 and a Packard US$3,200. A pre-assembly line Ford Model T of the same year retailed at approximately US$850 (after installing assembly line production a few years later, new Model Ts sold for as little as US$240). The average annual salary in America that year was approximately US$750.

Lozier tried to expand into the mid priced car market and in 1914 offered a four-cylinder car priced at US$2,000. It faced competition from the US$2000 Enger 40,[6] the cheaper FAL at US$1750,[6] the US$1600 Oakland 40,[7] The Chalmers Super Six at US$3200, Cole Four at US$1925,[8] and Western's US$500 Gale Model A roadster,[9] to name just a few. The new four was not a sales success and company finances continued to falter. After a failed attempt to merge with Ford Motor Company, the company declared bankruptcy in 1915. (Wikipedia)

Due to WW1 and the Depression years things did not go as planned for many.

This site covers those defunct automobile manufacturers of the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_automobile_manufacturers_of_the_United_States#L





(Ken H..)

[Ray Bell]

Many car makers benefited from the war years...

Their manufacturing facilities were going full-time making munitions, aircraft parts and the like. Packard built lots of Rolls-Royce Merlin engines, something which is very well known of course. I was reading recently that the difference in plan-reading between the US and the UK meant they had to re-draw the plans before building the engines. And that they were more consistent in their manufacturing standards.

Willys, of course, built the Jeeps. Ford built plenty of them too. Willys was the original designer and builder, they didn't see out the fifties. Nor did Studebaker, who supplied trucks for armies in large numbers.

Back in WW1 people like Hispano-Suiza were famous for their aircraft engines, as were Rolls-Royce. It's hard to see a car maker who got defence-oriented contracts in those years going under. Unless, of course, they changed course after the war because of what they'd learned, or the under-quoted.

An interesting subject to ponder...

[Roger Dowding]

Ray Bell,

: " Packard built lots of Rolls-Royce Merlin engines, something which is very well known of course. I was reading recently that the difference in plan-reading between the US and the UK meant they had to re-draw the plans before building the engines. And that they were more consistent in their manufacturing standards. "

You must have been reading what I have just read or something similar
- the latest issue of " New Zealand Classic Driver " has an article by Allan Dick about the" Packard Museum "
- actually a collection of Packards, a lot of English Cars and Farming Machines.
I thought the collection had gone as the owner whom I knew back in the 1980's had passed away.
Turns out that indeed Graham Craw passed away in 2007,however his son Fenton Craw who I also knew is the current Owner /Custodian..

I digress, sorry - old timers issue ....

The story is, as you say, Packard built a better - as in more reliable - version of the Rolls Royce Merlin.

To you and Ken H - keep this stuff coming.

[Trevor Sheffield]

"The story is, as you say, Packard built a better - as in more reliable - version of the Rolls Royce Merlin."

Possibly, but notably without bombs falling around them and not needing housewives and daughters on the assembly line. The fact is that they could not come up with a near equivalent design. Refer Mustang.

[Roger Dowding]

"The story is, as you say, Packard built a better - as in more reliable - version of the Rolls Royce Merlin."

Possibly, but notably without bombs falling around them and not needing housewives and daughters on the assembly line. The fact is that they could not come up with a near equivalent design. Refer Mustang.

Well said Trevor,
Recently read a couple of book about - " Home " - England / Britain, during WW2 and yes, a very tough life with severe rationing while the Americans had a war that apart from Pearl Harbour, their lifestyle just kept going.

Good to read a comment from you.

Cheers
Roger

[Kevin Hirst]

Many car makers benefited from the war years...

Their manufacturing facilities were going full-time making munitions, aircraft parts and the like. Packard built lots of Rolls-Royce Merlin engines, something which is very well known of course. I was reading recently that the difference in plan-reading between the US and the UK meant they had to re-draw the plans before building the engines. And that they were more consistent in their manufacturing standards.

Willys, of course, built the Jeeps. Ford built plenty of them too. Willys was the original designer and builder, they didn't see out the fifties. Nor did Studebaker, who supplied trucks for armies in large numbers.

Back in WW1 people like Hispano-Suiza were famous for their aircraft engines, as were Rolls-Royce. It's hard to see a car maker who got defence-oriented contracts in those years going under. Unless, of course, they changed course after the war because of what they'd learned, or the under-quoted.

An interesting subject to ponder...

I was always of the understanding that Bantam was the original builder / designer of the jeep but could not build enough of them to supply the military

[khyndart in CA]

In the 1909 Santa Monica Light Car Race there was a Buick # 9, entered by the Howard Auto Company.
This was one of the first races for Charles Howard. Early on Charles Howard bet on the future of the automobile, buying a ticket to Detroit. There he finagled a meeting with Will Durant, the owner of Buick Automobiles and future founder of General Motors.69914
Durant sent him back home to establish dealerships and soon Howard, at age 28, was in charge of the Buick franchise for San Francisco. Howard sold 85 cars in just one year, at the astronomical price of $1,000 each. In 1909, Durant showed his gratitude by giving him control over all distributorships in the western United States. Almost 20 years later he bought a cheap racehorse as he saw it had potential.
You can see that story in the movie "Seabiscuit."

69911


69912


69913




p.s. Why were most US built cars RHD at this time in 1909 ?







(Ken H)

[khyndart in CA]

I found this article regarding steering wheels on the right and then the left.
69923


(Ken H )

[khyndart in CA]

I found this collection of the early Santa Monica races at a library which I contacted and they were happy to have them put on TRS but they would be grateful if I could identify the photos a little better than "Two Cars in Motion" or "Two cars and Crowd " etc..
So I will give it a go. They are not in order by year.

First the two cars in motion is a photo taken at the February 1914 event.
William Carlson and his mechanic are anxiously looking back from their Mason # 10 as they round the Deadman's Corner ahead of the fast approaching Mercedes # 12 of eventual race winner, Ralph De Palma.

69943



I also found this clipping of how important these races were to the growth and establishment of Santa Monica back in the early 1900s.

" The Santa Monica Road Races were held 1909-1919. They were instrumental in keeping Santa Monica from being annexed into Los Angeles.

Put on by the city, auto dealers, and real estate developers, they were used as a promotion to bring people to Santa Monica from across the country. The course (which can be run today) ran from Ocean & Montana to Wilshire Boulevard, uphill to San Vicente and back to Ocean. Barney Oldfield, Ralph DePalma, Eddie Pullen, and Terrible Teddy Tetzlaff competed in what were the biggest race meets in the country at that time."




(Ken H..to be continued )

[Roger Dowding]

" Ken H..to be continued " We hope so,
what a good find..
my latest picture is much newer, but still old, have a look at the Northern Sports Car Club thread.

Cheers Ken H.

Roger

[khyndart in CA]

Thanks Roger,
Motoring and racing history is fun and I enjoy plunking away at it even it is regarding a location / event far from Aotearoa.

The early Santa Monica races were photographed by Bartlett, Adelbert, 1887-1966 (photographer)
The copyright holder of these items has granted permission to make them publicly available on the web.

This next photo was titled; "Is this the Start or the Finish ?"

This a scene from the grandstand by the Start / Finish line on October 14, 1911.
It shows the first event with Bert Dingley being flagged away at 8.30 am in his Pope-Hartford # 2.
The cars were set off in 30 second intervals for as you can see due to the smoke and dust etc. !
The next car is the # 5 National driven by Charles Merz.

69945

Note the large crowd in the stands and also notice how well the women that were present, were dressed.
The Los Angeles Times reported on the 1911 event;
" The crowds stretched around the entire eight mile course and down the sides of Ocean Front Boulevard as far as the eye could see."



(Ken H..)

[khyndart in CA]

February 26 1914. Vanderbilt Cup Race. Santa Monica.

Starting in front of the large crowd.
Gil Anderson in his Stutz # 3 ( This was the first Stutz ever built )
in front of Fiat # 9 driven by Frank Verbeck.

69952





( Ken H ..)

[khyndart in CA]

1914 February 26th.
As seen in my earlier post. the LHD Mason # 10 of William Carlson was still leading the RHD Mercedes #12 of Ralph DePalma further around the course.
69953

But at the end the Mercedes had come through to win easily as shown in this scene from a Mercedes brochure.
" Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday "

69954

For the first time on TRS. A short clip of Charlie Chaplin at the 1914 Santa Monica races.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn83OIxaF5s&t=4s

Some slapping shown that would not be tolerated in any filming today !


(Ken H..)

[khyndart in CA]

More photo identification.
"Two Cars and Crowd."
Is actually Harry Grant in his Isotta # 1 waiting to start alongside the # 2 Mercer of Spencer Wishart before the 1914 event.

70003

The number 12 Mercedes was a two year old car in 1914 but with the skillful driving of Ralph DePalma made it a winner here at Santa Monica and a year later the same car and driver won the 1915 Indianapolis 500.
70004

70005


It was surprising to find that a Mercedes powered Mercedes would not win a Grand Prix event in the US for 100 years when Lewis Hamilton won the 2014 US Grand Prix at Austin, Texas.




( Ken H)

[khyndart in CA]

Another fast Mercedes at that time was known as the "Blitzen Benz" driven in 1911 by Bob Burman who sadly lost his life at the at the 1916 Corona race as told in the Post # 395.
A good description of the car and it's history can be found in this article.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-BlitzenBenz&A=2745


70010



(Ken H...)

[Oldfart]

I purchased the Klemantski book on Blitzen Benzes, interesting how much muddied "history" there is. I didn't realize there was more than one. Muddied like NZ history is becoming :)

[Ray Bell]

While Benz and Mercedes were close at that time, they weren't to merge until 1926.

[khyndart in CA]

When one sees how little crowd control there was at early Vanderbilt races, it is surprising there were not more incidents like the one that happened at Santa Monica in November 1916 that hastened the end of road racing at this site.

Vanderbilt road racing and lack of crowd control, 1904

https://www.loc.gov/item/00564552


This peaceful present day photo of the place in Santa Monica where in 1916 a Marmon racer driven by Lewis Jackson, had steering failure on this slight curve and jumped the curb across about where that white vehicle is parked.
Although there were 4 fatalities and others injured and it happened on the 13th lap, the race carried on and finished as scheduled on the 48th lap !

70019

A graphic of when things go horribly wrong.

70020




(Ken H)

[jellywrestler]

Plenty of Old Race Tracks in this new NZ book on Road Racing Circuits, 160 of them actually. http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?2662-New-Zealand-Motorcycle-Road-Racing-Circuits-New-book-on-the-market