Any Timaru Historic Racing Pics?

[lisian_1275]

Hi
Has anyone been to the Timaru Historic Races this weekend?
Hoping someone has some pics of Bernie Hines in his Broadspeed Mini and Fred Sayers in the Don Holland lightweight.
Also any other Mini's would be of interest?

Thanks

Ian

[Steve Holmes]

I got to meet Fred Sayers last weekend. What a neat guy! And that Mini of his is just an absolute ripper!

[lisian_1275]

Yes, Fred is a great bloke to have a talk with and very approachable too. I had an email from Bernie today to say he was doing well.

Thanks

Ian

[kiwi285]

Hi Lisian,

Didn't go to Timaru but was at the Wigram Revival meeting at the start of November last year and took some photos of the Mini's racing there. If you are interested email me at mikefeisst@xtra.co.nz

[Carlo]

I ran against Bernie in a few races today, We let him through at the start of the 2nd one and followed him for a couple of laps. The Mini sure has some boogie down the straights and is quite entertaining in the corners, sure wished we had a camera onboard. After the race I described his passage through McKissock to him as looking like a Salmon trying to swim upsteam over rocks in shallow water as the tail was flicking about everywhere, it looked about as slippery as an Eel making it's way through a bucket of snot.

[lisian_1275]

Hi Carlo
Thats a very interesting analogy :) . Sounds like you are running a quick car yourself ( xu1 ? )

[Carlo]

Allan Farr was kind enough to let me loose in his Shellsport Escort once again.

There was a real Shellsport battle in the small car class with Noddy Murdoch in the Findlays Bakery Datsun 1200 (suspect ex lancaster car) Lyn Hatton in Big Bertha, the 2 litre Datsun 160J and Allan in the Escort, Good old fashoned 3 ito 2 braking duels at the end of the front straight into the right & left corners and lap times all within 0.2 of a second of each other, it sure rolled the time back to great racing days for these cars.

Like other number two drivers I was running with the bigger class cars most of which didn't want to hang around and play with us guys up the straights and Bernie decided that as we looked lonely and he wanted more race time he came and joined with us as well as running in the smaller car class

It was great to see the Broadspeed Mini here for I do get a little miffed with some of the current hotrods that turn up claiming to be all sorts of wonderfull things from the past while forgetting that they have jumbo engines, brakes that never existed when the cars were built or other components of today that give a performance advantage that was not there in yesteryears.

[RogerH]

There was a bit of carnage at Timaru :

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[David McKinney]

Ouch!

[Kiwiboss]

Every-time there's major carnage at a classic event its puts a damper on the whole weekend!! i know shit can happen but what were these guys thinking???????????? because that's some serious damage there!!

Dale Mathers

[Oldfart]

Timaru or Ruapuna?

[RogerH]

Timaru or Ruapuna?

Both actually - there was a prang in the VCC/historic race I was in at Ruapuna with one of the front engine South Island cars getting major damage and then the above photos at Timaru. I don't know if it has anything to do with the different types of cars run in the North Island compared to the South. In the NI we tend to run to stricter period rules and our cars have to be genuine period cars in period configuration - as a result we race hard but always give other competitors a bit of room. In the SI the VCC/historic cars seem a bit more non-period modified and some seem to be a bit less generous with cars around them.

[Oldfart]

Both actually - there was a prang in the VCC/historic race I was in at Ruapuna with one of the front engine South Island cars getting major damage and then the above photos at Timaru. I don't know if it has anything to do with the different types of cars run in the North Island compared to the South. In the NI we tend to run to stricter period rules and our cars have to be genuine period cars in period configuration - as a result we race hard but always give other competitors a bit of room. In the SI the VCC/historic cars seem a bit more non-period modified and some seem to be a bit less generous with cars around them.
Sorry Roger, I was told the red car was the 260M which shunted at Ruapuna. Perhaps my informant was not right. Agreed about the difference of "classic" cars. One of the pictured cars is nothing like it was in period at all.

[RogerH]

Sorry Roger, I was told the red car was the 260M which shunted at Ruapuna. Perhaps my informant was not right. Agreed about the difference of "classic" cars. One of the pictured cars is nothing like it was in period at all.

You are right - at Ruapuna the red 260M hit an embankment hard and appeared to have a lot of damage - I was just behind it and there were bits strewn over the track. At Timaru the Kato and the red Oscala had a coming together (I think on the straight!) and these are the cars in the photos.
I'm not sure about the "period" age of these cars - the Kato is listed in the programme as being a 1954 car but is in a very different configuration than it was in 1954. The Oscala is listed as a 1960 car but to the best of my knowledge was a nicely done one-off recent construction in the style of a 1960 car.

[markec]

That would be correct regarding the Oscala,Kerrin McNeil has built the car within past 10 years,he is from Dunedin.It was built period with modern safety features.

[RogerH]

That would be correct regarding the Oscala,Kerrin McNeil has built the car within past 10 years,he is from Dunedin.It was built period with modern safety features.

It's something I can't really get my mind around - how can a car that didn't exist before, say, 2000 be listed in the programme as a 1960 car? For example, if someone built a Cobra replica in 1998 then it should be a 1998 car not a 1964 car?
Probably digressing from this Timaru photo thread ..........

[Howard Wood]

The engine looks like a pre cross flow Ford Kent engine. Roger, your knowledge of F Juniors is better than most, were any front engined FJ cars built with that engine? Plenty with Italian engines and BMC A series.

[Howard Wood]

And I can answer my own question: The Lola Mk2 was built around a 997cc 105E engine.

[RogerH]

And I can answer my own question: The Lola Mk2 was built around a 997cc 105E engine.

That's right Howard - my Lola Mk2 has a 997Cc 105E engine and there were four front engine Gemini Mk2 FJs with the same engine. However no FJ in 1960 had a 1500cc pre cross flow with disc brakes ....... in fact the FJ engine capacity max limit was 1100cc.
I suppose this issue still is - what year do you ascribe to a car built from scratch in say, 2000 that doesn't replicate anything of an earlier era but is in the style of an earlier era?
This is taking nothing away from the Oscala which is (was:() a very nicely put together car.

[Howard Wood]

But sadly is nothing more than a representation of the aura/ style of generic cars of the period. To then "race" against period correct cars is a nonsense (in my humble opinion, but you should hear the views of my Historic Formula Ford friends!).

[RogerH]

But sadly is nothing more than a representation of the aura/ style of generic cars of the period. To then "race" against period correct cars is a nonsense (in my humble opinion, but you should hear the views of my Historic Formula Ford friends!).

I tend to agree - it becomes a bit frustrating when you have gone to the effort of racing a period correct car with correct engine, drum brakes and correct cross ply racing tyres and you come up a recent built car that looks a bit the same but has a bigger engine, disc brakes and low profile radial tyres ............

[AMCO72]

I know that this post and the half dozen before it aren't 'pictures of Timaru' thread but what came out of that meeting.....the damage and discussion about period cars. Of course it is possible for these people to build 'correct' cars with period parts....some might be a bit hard to find but they are out there. The problem is that these guys are 'racers' and they are not interested in going slowish, so if the car LOOKS roughly how it should, then that is ok. The real enthusiasts like Howard and Roger, for instance, can spot these fakes a mile off and get pissed off when these 'hot-rods' sail past them, not only on the straights, but in the corners as well. Someone asked have these machines got a COD and if so how did they get them......'crunch', perhaps you can tell us. I think all it takes is a bit of determination like Dale did for the HRC group, get everyone in line, NO excuses, and then everyone gets the message, otherwise we are going to have a 'them and us' situation again....Nth Island/Sth Island.... which means that us North Islanders are going to be reluctant to go South and race, knowing we are going to be beaten by some 'special'. Now there's an idea....all these recreations could race together as NZ Specials.......we have always been good at special building ,and we are still doing it apparently. There is of course the temptation by the organisers to fill grids that are a bit light, with non compliant cars and you can understand this. Golly, the more you think about this, the more issues arise. The South Islanders have always had a bit of rebel in them, which has worked down there, but NZ is 2 small Islands and it would be nice if we could work together.

[Steve Holmes]

Interesting discussion guys, definitely food for thought. I wonder if crunch is reading this? Be interesting to hear his thoughts.

[Steve Holmes]

Hi
Has anyone been to the Timaru Historic Races this weekend?
Hoping someone has some pics of Bernie Hines in his Broadspeed Mini and Fred Sayers in the Don Holland lightweight.
Also any other Mini's would be of interest?

Thanks

Ian

Ian, you originally started this thread asking if anyone took photos of Fred Sayers Mini during the South Island historic events? Sorry I can't help, but I did find these gems in amongst the huge collection of photos sent to me by Bruce Wells. I'm pretty certain this is the same car Fred races now, the Don Holland machine which competed in Sports Racing Closed (pre-Sports Sedans). I told Fred I thought I had a couple of pics of the car, I'll send him here to see them.

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[Rod Grimwood]

This is similar discussion to what was on other thread "replicas etc" maybe should go back to there and then Ian can have this one for photos etc. Very interesting though how these cars are popping up. And tend to agree with Howard and them, real with real and specials with specials.