Hampton Downs

[kiwi285]

Have just received the Historic Racing Club's newsletter and there is mention in there about the constant negative rumours regarding the Hampton Downs circuit and the Directors Chris Watson and Tony Roberts. Sure times are tough for everyone and there are very few business's that are not hunkering down through this downturn but that is certainly not a reason to start completely unfounded rumours.

We owe a debt of gratitute to these people for having the balls to get this project to the stage that it is currently at and give them every encouragement to keep plugging away and providing us with the facilities that we desparatley need here in NZ. The chances of new circuits being built in this country are extremely low and having such knockers having a go to massage their egos will certainly not encourage anyone else from taking such a massive chance.

Give them all the support that they need as they provide us with such a magnificant facility that is desparately needed in this area. If you don't support them just keep your thoughts to yourself as the rest of us aren't interested.

I know this is a completely different thread but we need to give these people all the support and help that we can. Send the Directors some much needed email support and help them remain positive.

Cheers Mike

[Rod Grimwood]

Fully back everything you say. These people have done a magnificent job, and it has not been a walk in the park. They along with the staff/helpers are approachable, polite and always willing to assist.
To the knockers/rumour mongers, crawl back up your passage and keep your self motivated thoughts to yourself. You are the reason motorsport is in the condition it is in, Split. The them and us brigade.
Wellington is such a nice place on a fine day, but there are a couple of buildings down there that tend to deliver this stuff and stupid self centred thoughts/decisions on how things should be in our world. Look after your rose tinted/self directed world and let the real people look after their's.

[Shano]

I totally agree. It's a horrible country to be in if you put your knackers on the line because there are so many small minded dickheads out there ready to stamp on them.

I have nothing but praise for the experiences I've had at HD as a spectator. The way they managed the communication of the cancelled Amon day last year was first rate.

[lisian_1275]

For the people who have got nothing better to do but start rumours and belittle others, wait until all your race tracks start falling off the planet and turning into housing estates and shopping malls, just as we have been seeing here in Australia.
I am really only new to this site and until recently befriended a fellow in NZ, I did not know that you had so much Vintage/Historic Motorsport. They should all be so LUCKY.
All the Negatives should PUT UP or SHUT UP.
Just my 2 cents.

Thanks
Ian

[woody]

I see in the latest Classic Driver that there is land near Nelson set aside for a motor racing circuit and also at Cromwell. Cromwell will be a club circuit.

[nigel watts]

Hats off to Tony Roberts & Chris Watson for developing Hampton Downs circuit. Even though it's exactly 150 Km's from my home I regard it as my local track and go there several times a year to enjoy the variety of events that they put on. More power to you guys & don't pay any attention to the knockers because they don't usually have the balls or the gumption to make anything happen let alone develop a motor racing circuit, residential apartments & commercial premises.

[kiwi285]

I understand that Steve will be joining us at the BMW Festival for the first weekend only. For those that have not met him here is your chance to put a face to the name. I would imagine that he will be spending a fair amount of time in Dale's (Kiwiboss) pit with the Historic Muscle Car group.

Please make yourself known to Steve and the rest of us.

Cheers Mike

[Oldfart]

If there really ever becomes a difficulty I would hope that we could all put our hands in our own pockets and help.
Even a bit from every enthusiast would wind up being a fairly large lump. Tony and Chris have shown exceptionally large kahunas in putting HD together. They deserve any and all support we can give.

[John B]

For all the overseas readers on this Forum, here are some views of the Hampton Downs circuit along with some of the facilities. Chris Watson & Tony Roberts should be very proud of what they have achieved - it's a great track, and we should all be supporting them!

Views from the trackside apartments...

5251

5252

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The trackside apartments...

5253

And the garages underneath the apartments...

5255

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[John B]

And here are some plans of the track. Below is the current 2.8km 'medium circuit' with six corners; a 1000 metre front straight (with a kink); and 11 metres of elevation change...

5257

Below is the plan for the full 3.8km circuit that is under construction. It will have 10 corners (6 right-hand and 4 left-hand) and a new 800 metre back straight. The circuit direction is clockwise...

5258

These two images taken in September 2009 show both the current and future tracks...


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5260

Once completed, Hampton Downs will in fact have three circuit configurations - the current 2.8km 'Medium' track; the 'Full' 3.8km circuit; plus a 1.2km 'Club' circuit with four corners.

[Kiwiboss]

Magnificent pictures John B, thanks for posting.

Im sure this is NZ's first and only privately owned and built Motorsport complex(others are clubs and councils i think) so quite a major undertaking, and lets face it, if it was all about PROFIT i'm sure this is not the way!! be great if they could list shares so one could have an interest in this complex, i know i'd buy a few thousand, even if i never saw it again!! so in the mean time its our job to say good things, keep both partners positive and not winge when things don't go rite.

Anyone heard whats happening at Pukekohe? seems the council is really coming down on the noise there, and now you have Harvey Norman and other industrial retails stores on the northern boundary, like Bay Park that's the start of a slow death? could be wrong!!

Dale Mathers

[Rod Grimwood]

Dale you are so right, we remember the Bay Park set up. Councillors looking after there own interest.

[Murray Maunder]

Having just returned from Ruapuna I am reminded what a massive step up Hampton Downs is for a motor racing facility in this country. Imagine if Tony and Chris can get all the proposed improvements completed! Hampton Downs is the future for top level car and bike racing in this country, the only venue worthy of an international event in my opinion.

What they have done is truly heroic, I'm sure the only vision was for the motorsport experience, not personal gain. Whatever does happen through troubles, and these are troubled times, no financial corporate is going to drive a bulldozer through what has been built. Let's hope Tony and Chris stay in control because they have done great.

[CUSTAXIE50]

whats up i see on tv3 sport last night that there is talk about getting the super v8s stopped, looking at what was said some are saying that they have used there plans and money to get this off the ground, i have to say the new nzv8 does look good too the ones with the most money are going to come out on top in the end-the b-s-rolls on ,thats nz for you for me i like the nzv8s but thats just me old school look at the number of classes that are not doing very good at all today.

[TonyG]

Interesting read in the Franklin County news;
" Franklin County News
John Key said on the radio this morning that the Govt was prepared to put $1 million towards upgrading Pukekohe Park to try and keep the V8 Supercars in NZ. Good idea? You think it will convince V8 Supercars to stay? Why is Hampton Downs totally out of the picture?"
I wonder what the Cochroach has to say about it. He says that the Gold Coast Street race is safe but the rapid rail is going through part of it so that will make things interesting. The first chicane and hairpin onto the beachfront is part of the new rail line.

[woody]

Have been watching V8's from HD. Not much seating for the general public. I see a lot standing behind fence. "Cockroach" said the other morning on radio talking about future V8 racing in NZ that HD had a lot of problems to sort out. What was he refering to?

[minihaha]

In my experience of HD from a spectators perspective at the McLaren revival 2010, the people you see "standing behind a fence" are the lucky b*stards who get to wander to every corner of the track due to the fantastic walkway under the main straight. It was amazing being able to see the cars mid corner and mid slide from such different points around the circuit, rather than sitting on one side like looking at a slotcar track on the living room floor. I also recommend standing in the walkway when a huge field of F5000's roar over head!! :p

Why don't some of these detractors relocate there businesses to brand new premises built on the border of a magnificent motorsport amphitheatre and support the future rather than be stuck in the past? ( I know its not that simple but....)

[Lee Tracey]

Personally I think that in the remote event of the Govt actually giving any money to Motorsport in NZ the $1million would (and by the time the money got to Brendan Telfers show - straight after Tony Veitch's interview with JK - it was $2 million) be far better being given to HD to complete the track extension. After all I am assuming the Gee Gee lot have done a backflip on the V8s at Puke, but what's to stop them doing another backflip in 2-3 years time?

Cheers
Lee

[TonyG]

I spent from 1961 till 1992 living across the road from the Puke track literally and for as long as i can remember, every time a new neighbour came into the area a petition was started to shut down the track because of the noise. They even whinged about the horse commentary when the wind blew the wrong direction. Bl..dy do gooders and there noise complaints. They will succeed eventually.
They knew the track was there when they came yet they still built - same arguement as Western Springs I believe.

[Shano]

Pukekohe will need a lot more than a million spent on it before it is even a half decent venue. Toilets, food, spectator areas and the bumps in the track - to start with. Then they have to get rid of the bridge over the straight which has ruined the sight lines from both ends of the pit straight - which is where most of the spectators sit at Pukekohe because it's pretty much impossible to walk round the track and see other corners.

One mill is too little, too late.

[Oldfart]

From having been at HD and Puke in recent times, I feel it's about time to let go of the nostalgia surrounding Puke. The Supertourers proved (to me at least) that HD , as a track is well capable of handling such cars, and the crowds would be well served. If the Supercars don't want to go there, I reckon it is their loss.
Of course it would be of financial benefit to HD, the spectators would be well served, and I believe the class would be a great show.

[Murray Maunder]

Yes, Oldfart, Pukekohe may well fade into nostalgic history, I hope not though. Facilities are not the be all of racing, unless you're talking about the ivory tower forms of racing like the Aussies V8s.

Cochrane's outburst as reported on Radio Sport last week revealed an arrogant contempt for HD and I suspect New Zealand. "HD is facing major challenges." Yes we have the RMA to stumble over every time someone tries to do anything new. But the "problem" with the Aussie V8s at HD is neither Cochrane's, nor Tony and Chris's problem. What AVESCO wants, is an event promotor who will step up and pay the huge fee, hopeful that they might be able to break even or even make a profit. IMHO it would be near impossible to break even with the demands in NZ's current climate and the HD directors are surely well aware of this.

As the Super Tourers apparently showed over the weekend, you don't have to import the Aussie circus to make a great show that the crowds will go and see. Maybe it's better at this point to look forward to a period where much of the motor racing buck isn't disappearing over the Tasman.

[Kiwiboss]

What a great crowd, but i actually found the SuperTourers boring!!! that was until the safety car then the complex of the race changed. But the cars themselves are soo quiet that the gearbox wine was louder than the exhaust note, this needs to change? or maybe im just old school?!! Central and Honda cup put on the best show, the noise of the "Central" cars sounded awesum!!! but all in all for $30 entry, half a tank of gas, a hotdog and coffey it was a great day out that i really enjoyed, no doupt the cheapest i've ever walked away from a race track in recent times, LOL

HD is no doupt the place to be :)

Dale Mathers

[CUSTAXIE50]

I was at that manfeild meeting where Tony Roberts had a drive in the Mclaren canam car,too weeks later i was in auckland and was at the Mclaren museum and tony came out of a room and walked passed me and i said hi ,and i told him i saw him drive the Big Mclaren at manfeild he said someone had to do it (laughing), he said come and have a look over the plans that he was drawing up for HD and i think no work had started on the track at that time ,how long back was that i was there for about an hour and a half we allso talked about robbie and the custaxie, now lets look at the great job he has done with HD a very nice looking track but to me its not a drivers track take levin that was a drivers track not all could drive it , the best was Graham McRac along with Baypark and Pukekohe allso the south island tracks I like Pukekohe because thats an all out Balls track i look forward to them putting money into it

[AMCO72]

I was at HD briefly on Saturday afternoon, and got there just in time to see to first 'race' of the much vaunted 'super-tourers'. RACE, in inverted comas, because as I suspected it was just a display of highspeed lappery. As Dale observed, the cars were very quiet.....a nice whine from the gearbox, but is going to take more than that to entice me back. There was a biggish crowd, however a good few of them were 'free-loaders'......appartment owners and their mates, sitting in comfort on the balconies, enjoying a few beers and the racing. I ran into Jim Barclay while wandering around, and he says that this has got to stop. Promoters and track owners will never make ends meet while this goes on. I know thats how we have often done it in NZ.....sneaked under a fence and got in free..... but the down side is that competitors will end up paying more, a lot more, to be able to compete. This brings me to the 'crowd' at the recent BMW Festival. A huge amount of effort went into this event and there was a magnificent display of cars both competing and static......enough to satisfy any classic motor-race enthusiast. They, the blokes, were there, usually helping with some team or other, but where were the paying public? Was the event not advertised? I was too busy with our own problems with the Mini to notice how many people were wandering around, but not many by all accounts. Editor Tony Haycock in the latest Classic Driver asks "what went wrong". Where was everybody? We are traveling down a slippery slope here and are in danger of loosing this event and facility if we cant get the public in the gates to pay the ever increasing bills. People from overseas are always commenting on how lucky we are here in NZ, but are we taking it too much for granted. In my opinion we had a lot of good racing at the Festival, with interesting mixes of cars, which in my opinion knocked the 'super-tourers' into a cocked-hat. It was the ST's first event and naturally there was a lot of anticipation as to how it would pan out. By contrast on the same day, the muscle cars were their usual noisy, crazy selves and hugely entertaining. I would have been interested to ask some of the departing crowd what they thought!!

[CUSTAXIE50]

Think about it maybe the people who come from the state house side of the railway tracks ,dont like to see all the appartment owners and their mates sitting on the balconies enjoying a few beers and the racing ,if you were to take the super tourers to pukekohe the public would full the place up you just do not put on racing cars, you put bands side shows etc show cars ,the list goes on you have to think outside the box thats how you make your money, the kids will want to go so mum and dad will have to come allso ,thats the way to do it just wait till they go to ruapuna they will full the place up.

[jim short]

Yes I will have my say as well. I have said it before boring boring the 1st 2 races indian file follow the leadermost of the time the last race thanks to the safteycar frustation set in and some push and shove comenced. and that was considered good racing ,,just like the trans ams yrs back.then the A1s the best thing to F1 and all the hoopla from Shuan ?/raving on how great [AS HE told me we did not have TV coverage untill 5 yrs, ago} Sorry I seem to remember in the 80s all events including motorbikes Minis Form Ford 2 ltr. sedsns plus Sports Sedans Hux .Crowe Algee ect Live Live coverage on the same day!!! LAST WEEK AT mANFIELD the first meeting this season I have been to the crowd was great and did not leave untill the last V8 race was over }{15 cars} not 4 as some twisted folk were claming.. .The Muscle cars are really great even on the dummy grid just to admire and smell the race gas,Then the best competetion came in the GT and Sports car the crowd just loved the big car littlecar battle {going by the continual stream of them checking out the Juno honda 250hp }as it batled with that beatiful Camaro *800hp Trimotor .Just like yrs ago the Mini Coopers v Jaguars .Racing is out braking and out sprinting Not indian file 30 mtrs apart at 150mph Yes I know my son drove the Juno So what

[Oldfart]

Please do not take my comments that the Super tourers was the best racing, simply that the circuit can cope.
Apartment holders are "freeloaders"!! Hell they have paid a lot of money to own them, or in many cases to rent them for the weekend as a motel. I, and a few friends are hiring one for the Roycroft meeting, does that make me a freeloader? Rent is very similar to any motel nearby. Purchasers of apartments have paid quite a bit "over the odds" and their financial input assisted the construction to an extent, now they are being castigated for this?? Hell guys you want it all!
One thing we have all forgotten, motor racing ceased to be that many years back, it is now an entertainment package. While I don't agree with anything much Custaxie50 says even he wants bands, side shows show cars etc.
The Supers were processional?? In my opinion the NZV8s are a panelbeaters nightmare/joke. Rubbing is racing? No wonder the sponsors take a pasting and don't want to continue in many cases. Seems like if you don't hit others it's not motor racing!
Sorry, end of rant.

[stubuchanan]

Hell, are the (?)Good Old Kiwi Knockers are starting in on Hampton Downs already!! The paint's only just dry!!

I think it's a great place to watch racing - you can get from corner to corner in a minute or two in the infield areas. There have always been some processional motor races - look at some of the old NZGP's, everyone lapped from 3rd place down.

As far as crowds go, perhaps they all went to the Battle of The Streets at Paeroa on Sunday, they talk about 10000 spectators there watching the motorbikes.

Perhaps I'll say a few words about the much-maligned Pukekohe in a day or so, too.

End of Geriatric Rant #2

Stu

[Neville Milne]

My 10cents worth....I've only been to H/D once..at the suggestion of Bob Homewood, I attended a meeting in 2011, and was impressed by several features of the facility:
Easy access; an interesting lay-out, making sensible use of existing contours; great vantage points; open pit access; friendly/helpful staff; decent eating/snacking facilities and last, but by no means least (if one has a female companion), clean toilets.
The crowd WAS rather small, but then the weather was problematic.
I lived in Pukekohe, before, during and after the track was hurriedly constructed; my mother took in overseas 'roomers' at criminal rates, in the early 60"s when local hotels were few and small.
Pukekohe will always be a favorite, however, I believe there IS room for both Pukekohe AND H/D, and I think that a purpose built facility, will, in the long term, provide more variety and more convenience, for the real enthusiasts, and the casual attendees...............their involvement, like it or not, is critical.
We all can and should support both, else we might well find that we end up with nothing.
Per capita, Kiwis have a lot to be proud of, in all realms of motor sport, we need to support those who put their time and hard-earned cash up to ensure that we retain our reputation in these fields.

PS...I WOULD attend H/D regularly if it were not such a long haul from Baltimore
Neville Milne

[AMCO72]

Yes oldfart, the owners of the apartments have paid good money for their grandstand seat, but their mates haven't. When you hire an apartment for the Roycroft Trophy meeting, who does the rent go to, not the promoters, so everytime this happens they miss out. Of course you may be racing at the meeting, so you have paid a fee for that, and got a couple of complimentary tickets for the team. Not a problem. You could of course say that the people lining the balconies are only there because the owners, or renters invited them for an exciting day of motoracing, and more importantly drinking, and they wouldn't have been there otherwise. So we are back to square one. And by the way, I am certainly NOT knocking HD. I am as desperate as most other racers that HD survives and grows. What I was commenting on was SOME of the racing on the weekend. But it takes all-sorts, and if that is what gives you a buzz, and HD makes money, well thats great. It just a shame that our classic event, which was a far better meeting, drew such a small crowd, because they missed some amazing sights and sounds. I didn't know the Paeroa street races were on the same weekend but dont think that would have made a big difference.

[Grant Ellwood]

Neville
have you been to Virginia International Raceway yet? It's about 30 km from where I am based, VIR is a great circuit with excellent amenities, and although I haven't been back to HD, sounds like it is a similar set-up. VIR has bathrooms worthy of the Hilton!
Re Baltimore, I attended the inaugural Indycar event there last year, glad to se that they have scraped together the backing for this year too.
Grant Ellwood

My 10cents worth....I've only been to H/D once..at the suggestion of Bob Homewood, I attended a meeting in 2011, and was impressed by several features of the facility:
Easy access; an interesting lay-out, making sensible use of existing contours; great vantage points; open pit access; friendly/helpful staff; decent eating/snacking facilities and last, but by no means least (if one has a female companion), clean toilets.
The crowd WAS rather small, but then the weather was problematic.
I lived in Pukekohe, before, during and after the track was hurriedly constructed; my mother took in overseas 'roomers' at criminal rates, in the early 60"s when local hotels were few and small.
Pukekohe will always be a favorite, however, I believe there IS room for both Pukekohe AND H/D, and I think that a purpose built facility, will, in the long term, provide more variety and more convenience, for the real enthusiasts, and the casual attendees...............their involvement, like it or not, is critical.
We all can and should support both, else we might well find that we end up with nothing.
Per capita, Kiwis have a lot to be proud of, in all realms of motor sport, we need to support those who put their time and hard-earned cash up to ensure that we retain our reputation in these fields.

PS...I WOULD attend H/D regularly if it were not such a long haul from Baltimore
Neville Milne

[timbo61]

I have only ever been to Pukekohe a couple of times, and I have to say, as a spectator, its fairly ordinary. You are only allowed close to a small portion of the track (legally), and when you are watching the racing in a designated spot, you are looking through catch fencing held up by great big telegraph poles. Up under the shady trees at the top of the start-finish straight is nice and relaxing, and so is up in the horse racing clubs grandstand, but apart from that, its not much.
I can't comment on H.D, I will after a trip across the ditch next year for the Denny Hulme Festival, but having seen footage and photo's, I have to ask, why is there so little run off area along the outside of the main straight? If a car breaks down, they can't even move off the track out of harms way, and I hate to think what the motorcycle racers think about when they see that concrete wall.

[Parnelli]

Whilst differing opinions is healthy to any debate ,I can not let the “freeloaders “ label go unchallenged. As an apartment owner ( actually the bank owns most of it ) I have put my money where my mouth is in support of this development and motor racing in general. I have neither a business to right this expense off against nor an in heritance to pay for it, so to be labeled as such just shows the intellect of a large number of supposed motorsport supporters. If the apartment owners had not stumped up then H.D. would still be just another pipe dream. For promoters to whine about the apartments getting a free ticket is so hypercritical when we all know that these same promoters give away thousands of “corporate freeloader “ tickets to every event they put on ! Whilst some thought they were not loud enough and others found them too processional , I thought overall they put on a slick show. Yes, they need a larger grid and yes, they need a reverse grid race , but other than the purists, I think most spectators would have come away fairly impressed.- especially given the ticket pricing. As for the BMW festival, then it has got to be acknowledged that aiming it at predominately a European marquee then it had limited appeal to the average NZ motorsport supporter. A gamble that may not have paid off ? A return next year to Denny Hulme should see the crowds come back.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Dont you understand oldfart its getting people there in the first place would you say, think about it sit down ,not all want to see the racing so you know that before you start ,like life there are things we all do not want to do ,just look around at what some like to do and see maybe put a free bus on to start with before you start thinking about putting a meeting on ,say how am i going to full this place up, you all get around the table and say shit how the (f) are we going to make some money to make this place work thats the only way to do it ,ok oldfart ,you dont agree with much i have to say so if this is the case ,tell all out here how you would run a meeting and get the people to come ,have your say oldfart.

[AMCO72]

Parnelli........what I meant to say in post 25 and made clear in 31, was the invited guests of the apartment owners who were the freeloaders, not the owners themselves. I'm sure when you have stumped up with $300,000 plus for an apartment, you have in fact bought a ticket for life at the venue........the word YOU being important here. But hey, lets not get carried away by all this, I am involved with motorsport as much as anyone on here, and am happy to pay whatever, to compete, spectate, and leave the worry to other better qualified people. By the way Parnelli, I see you joined the roaring season in June last year. To date you have posted twice. Perhaps you cant be bothered debating with people of doubtful intellect like myself.

[Kiwiboss]

Whilst differing opinions is healthy to any debate ,I can not let the “freeloaders “ label go unchallenged. As an apartment owner ( actually the bank owns most of it ) I have put my money where my mouth is in support of this development and motor racing in general. I have neither a business to right this expense off against nor an in heritance to pay for it, so to be labeled as such just shows the intellect of a large number of supposed motorsport supporters. If the apartment owners had not stumped up then H.D. would still be just another pipe dream. For promoters to whine about the apartments getting a free ticket is so hypercritical when we all know that these same promoters give away thousands of “corporate freeloader “ tickets to every event they put on ! Whilst some thought they were not loud enough and others found them too processional , I thought overall they put on a slick show. Yes, they need a larger grid and yes, they need a reverse grid race , but other than the purists, I think most spectators would have come away fairly impressed.- especially given the ticket pricing. As for the BMW festival, then it has got to be acknowledged that aiming it at predominately a European marquee then it had limited appeal to the average NZ motorsport supporter. A gamble that may not have paid off ? A return next year to Denny Hulme should see the crowds come back.

Parnelli, i believe you are quite rite that the European marquee probably had limited appeal to the general public/come racer. But having just read the editors comments in the latest "Classic Driver" you would tend to believe that even the 60's/70's Historic Muscle car class has a limited appeal as well, Hmmmmm. And at the Skope with probably the worst class's i'd ever raced in, but with a huge crowd attendance, maybe we do have it all wrong!!! but i tend to believe that the Januarys dates collide with too many other automotive events and the paying public can only stand so$$$$$$$ much.

As a point of interest, at the Monterey Historics last year, probably the largest USA west coast historic event, it was spot the spectator!! i question my american mate,(who was racing) about this and his comments were they are not intested in the public as its a "Historic" racers event only and if some public come along thats OK, as for funding? its the competitor that pays and believe me, DO THEY PAY!!

Dale Mathers

[Parnelli]

Direct quote from the promotional sales documentation “ Imagine taking friends or clients along to race day “ To now have track management, promoters and supposed motorsport supporters label said people ‘ freeloaders ‘ is just a little bit ripe ! Whilst I am happy for my quests to pay to go thru to the infield, I don’t think anyone has the right to slander invited quests on to freehold property ! I hope that all supposed motorsport supporters take the opportunity to truly show their support for this development by purchasing either an existing apartment ( some are always for sale ) or one in the new proposal. I believe that this is the best way anyone can support this development, rather than bickering about who has or has not paid to get in. Jeez, I better watchout, two posts in one day, I run out of ink if I keep this up !

[AMCO72]

Dale, regarding the Monterey Historic meeting, and the fact that very few non competitive spectators were in attendance. As I said in a previous post, I fear that this situation will come to NZ. Some folk I spoke to at the Festival said...'so what that there aren't many spectators here, we, the competitors are enjoying ourselves'. True, but in a meeting like that there were some big bills to be paid I'll bet. The paying public help to pay these bills. To cover this eventuallity in the future, you can see promoters upping the entrance fee to cover any shortfall in income. Then it will be only rich fellas like yourself competing!!!!!!!!!!! There is probably some truth in what was said about the theme of the meeting being a single marque, rather than a NZ personality. Nearly everyone at last years Chris Amon festival in the 60's saloon category said they wouldn't be attending the BMW festival, including me. But I changed my mind, as I hadn't done anything racing-wise up to that point during that season. And Dale, dont you ever have any doubts about the popularity of the HMC series.......it is spot on, even though I can see the over 3000cc class will, in the not too distant future, be able to run without the under 3 litre boys. You cant really compare Hd or Puke with Skope.......Christchurch is different, always has been, I come from there and I know. Right now a lot of people are trying to escape from the earthquake syndrome and a bit of Classic Motoracing is just the way to do it.

[AMCO72]

That would be nice Parnelli, unfortunately my bank manager is not as sympathetic as yours, and I will have to resort to renting an apartment, should that be necessary, from someone who had the foresight to buy one at the outset.

[AMCO72]

An interesting observation was made by oldfart in post 28. He says....'.that motoracing ceased to be that years ago, and is now an entertainment package'. I can agree with some of the hooplah that some want at a race meeting...cars and car related stuff is ok, but bouncy castles for the kids?? Custaxie50 says this is ok as it draws the kids in, and by association the parents....all paying at the turnstile. I had never thought of it that way, but there you go, you learn something everyday. By the way Custaxie50, oldfart was, by some miracle, actually agreeing with you about providing entertainment other than cars. [At least I think he was] Things are looking up!!

[CUSTAXIE50]

AMCO72--when the first apartments went on sale i think they were going for $85,000--now $300,000 plus for an apartment,looking at some of what has been said (they are not interested in the public, is that also the feeling in nz also if some are freehold where would you be if HD fell over.

[nigel watts]

I've been to all three festivals now, buying tickets, programmes, food etc. I enjoyed the first two better than the BMW event simply because Bruce McLaren & Chris Amon were boyhood heros of mine whereas BMW doesn't mean much to me at all. I did enjoy the HMC races immensely - well done Dale.
I was however quite shocked at the lack of spectators on the day I attended. The grandstands were only about a third full at best. Thinking back to the 60's when Pukekohe enjoyed large crowds of race fans, there was no TV to speak of, no Super 15 Rugby, the All Blacks played very few games, there were no swap meets, hot rod shows, classic car events, Drag Racing etc etc. I enjoy classic racing, classic motorbikes, hot rod & classic car shows - there's something on somewhere nearly every weekend. There's huge competition for every spectator dollar. The kids are not that interested in historic racing but they do turn out in droves for drifting and other Japanese car based events [and let's not forget the wet T Shirt competitions]. For classic racing you need to find a way to entice along the teens & twenties, or classic historic racing will die a slow death along with the circuits.
I'm sure you all know all of this already. So it's not about apartment owners inviting along non paying guests [an extra couple of hundred tickets sold is not going to make that much difference].
I know the promoters are trying very hard to come up with events that will attract the punters, so I'm not knocking their efforts BUT they haven't cracked it yet.
What's the answer - buggered if I know, but there must surely be one. HMC is a step in the right direction.
Maybe if everyone on the forum puts their collective thinking caps on we can come up with some workable solutions.

[AMCO72]

Nigel, you are right about the 3 festivals. The first one celebrating Bruce McLaren was certainly the best. It had a real buzz about it. Perhaps because it was the first. Spectators made the effort to dress in period, and we all came away feeling the something special had taken place, which indeed it had. Chris Amon festival was ok, but there was no buzz at this last one, and as I said most of us in the 60's saloon class had decided last year that we weren't going to attend, and save our efforts for the Denny Hulme show. I hope we dont have to resort to drifting and wet T shirt competitions to get the paying public in though. I still think that the advertising could have been better. I know a budget would have to have been stuck to, and advertising is hugely expensive, especially on the telly and sometimes it is not always obvious that you are getting any benefit. Classic and Historic racing tends to be the preserve of 'older' people rather than the teens and twenties you are hoping to attract, but frankly they cant be bothered watching a bunch of fat, sweaty old men doing there thing in an old bomb. They are used to watching real, live, violent action at the movies and on the telly that makes old car racing look deadly dull. Hampton Downs is so close to Auckland that distance cannot be the excuse for not coming, and with unrivaled access from the motorway, and good parking at the venue should be a bonus. We are spoiled for things to do, and perhaps on a nice fine day, in the middle of summer, watching classic motoracing is not one of them.

[Bruce302]

I too have been to all three festival events, I have been invited to apartments also, and as far as I can tell, all the invited apartment guests had paid to get into the track. No one with a hint of petrol in their veins can go to the apartments and not go closer to the action. Imagine not having the apartments. The track would be in a wilderness of the north waikato. Zero ambience.

Tony and Chris have done a stunning job, but there is still a way to go. Custaxie50 has some valid points. It's about entertainment for the widest possible audience. The dates do clash with a lot of other auto activities, Kumeu show and the drags to name two .

The BMW event was the poor cousin to the first two, festivals, but I say that as a common V8 lover. No doubt the German marque lovers were very happy, and I guess they paid one way or another.

Our biggest hurdle is the lack of population, pure and simple, and the average mans income. all things considered we (NZ) do spectacularly well. A Canadian friend here a couple of years ago could not believe the amount of racing happening on the weekend he was here, and the TV coverage it got.

Lets make the "Denny Hulme" one to make the world sit up and take note of. Just think of all the Can Am cars that will be here

Bruce.

[timbo61]

My first trip across the ditch to Pukekohe was in January 2008 for the Tasman Revival as it was then.
It was a mix of historic and modern racing and the one thing I did notice was there were a lot of BMW's there competing both in a controlled class and an open class.
Perhaps having a Tribute to BMW meant the promoters could be guaranteed good grids which also means good entry fees being paid. It sure helps when balancing the books at the end of the day.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Go wash your mouth out AMCO72 we cant have that can we,OLDFART AGREEING--(Laughing)--Bouncy castles dont know about that but if it beings them in do it.

[Oldfart]

Custaxie 50, as Amco has said, I agreed with you! So what did I say that was a problem for you?
In the "good old days" even the humble grass track meetings at Waharoa, Raglan etc attracted a very good crowd, and the entry fees were low enough for pretty much all of us to compete and more to the point have a hell of a lot of fun. There were winners, of course, but from my distant memory it was not too important. Now please accept that I am NOT an advocate of the school athletics where the kids get an award for participating, winning (or more to the point trying as hard as you can) is bloody important, real life is like that.
So why have recent events (well from the 80s on) got less and less crowds? If you have been to a "proper" Grand Prix, you know that you see a shedload more on the box than you can at the circuit, just bugger all atmosphere.
How do you turn that around and get huge crowds? For me, personal opinion, reverse grid is a sham. Then again speedway often has fastest off the back and they still drag in the crowds, without the bouncy castles etc.
I don't profess to know.
I suspect that promoters get more $$$ from TV than the gate, so perhaps they don't mind?
Bruce302 I reckon you are right, we ALL need to make sure that 5 of our mates get to the Denny meeting, isn't that what we used to do, get a crowd of our own, I don't know how many are on this site but multiply that alone by 5! Our personal enthusiasms are probably the greatest weapon. Lets all be positive.

[Oldfart]

Go wash your mouth out AMCO72 we cant have that can we,OLDFART AGREEING--(Laughing)--Bouncy castles dont know about that but if it beings them in do it.

Hey you actually intimated such things by saying bands side shows show cars etc you have to think outside the square. (I kept your lack of punctuation :) )
Of course it does mean you might not be there for the motor racing at all!

[Oldfart]

Just had a random thought!
I don't go to a lot of meetings any more and was trying to think why.
Part of it is the lack of really slick organisation. Back in the day we very rarely had races stopped, pace (safety) cars were unknown and it was pretty common for the next race to be doing their lap to the grid while the others came off. We, as flaggies, had lunch grabbed when we could, not walk back to the race HQ and come back some time later.
Perhaps the spectators simply get turned off by bugger all happening?
I started going to Speedway, stock cars etc, and the don't mess around anywhere near as much.

[RGM]

I went to Hampton Downs on Sunday watched the morning races then went home and watched on telly,much more comfortable and not so hot(not much shade) and enjoyed a few cold ones at the same time.Apart from the Muscle cars I thought the racing was fairly boring.As for Hampton Downs it is going to devalop into a great facility in time but I still like Pukekohe and feel there is a place for both and as a competitor we need all the circuits we can have.
On the subject of crowds Kiwis are a fickle lot and turn up to something new and then drop off as a couple of years go by (Hamilton)

[AMCO72]

Now there's a thing....speedway. I haven't been to a speedway meet for some time, but I hear that they still manage to draw in the crowds. Why? Rapid, quick fire races, no buggering around with safety cars, except in the event of a bad crash, and plenty of action on the track, and an occasional stoush in the pits, and they do actually RACE. All good fun, and as oldfart says it WAS all good fun. I wrote ages ago on Yards and Yarns, that it was a long time since I had seen a smile on the spectators faces, but just occasionally we can drag them away from the hot-dog stand and get them enthralled in the action on the track. Of course it is the same old story....participation is better than anticipation, and I can see that to a lot of people motoracing is about as boring as America's Cup sailing or bowls, but I'm sure that actually participating in those events is hugely exciting. All this to see if we can improve the image of Classic car racing, and I'm sure if we bandy it about long enough some ideas will come out of it.

[Kiwiboss]

I've been to all three festivals now, buying tickets, programmes, food etc. I enjoyed the first two better than the BMW event simply because Bruce McLaren & Chris Amon were boyhood heros of mine whereas BMW doesn't mean much to me at all. I did enjoy the HMC races immensely - well done Dale.
I was however quite shocked at the lack of spectators on the day I attended. The grandstands were only about a third full at best. Thinking back to the 60's when Pukekohe enjoyed large crowds of race fans, there was no TV to speak of, no Super 15 Rugby, the All Blacks played very few games, there were no swap meets, hot rod shows, classic car events, Drag Racing etc etc. I enjoy classic racing, classic motorbikes, hot rod & classic car shows - there's something on somewhere nearly every weekend. There's huge competition for every spectator dollar. The kids are not that interested in historic racing but they do turn out in droves for drifting and other Japanese car based events [and let's not forget the wet T Shirt competitions]. For classic racing you need to find a way to entice along the teens & twenties, or classic historic racing will die a slow death along with the circuits.
I'm sure you all know all of this already. So it's not about apartment owners inviting along non paying guests [an extra couple of hundred tickets sold is not going to make that much difference].
I know the promoters are trying very hard to come up with events that will attract the punters, so I'm not knocking their efforts BUT they haven't cracked it yet.
What's the answer - buggered if I know, but there must surely be one. HMC is a step in the right direction.
Maybe if everyone on the forum puts their collective thinking caps on we can come up with some workable solutions.

You guys here on this forum are a great bunch and show your concern by the fact that you are prepared to post!!! but lets not get carry'd away and snipe at one another!! after all AMCO called me RICH, and if he only knew, but im not about to take that outta txt. You all have great ideas and fantastic comments and you all are rite, in different ways!! i can only view what i know and think from my own personal past learning's, in particular historic racing in California. For the size of the surrounding population in California you could say that the HD Festival crowd was huge? in proportion? so that would mean last weekends Supertourers had a US NASCAR size crowd (in-proportion)? my 3 day gate pass at Monterey was $195USD, could you image how many spectators we would get if we charged that? NOBODY!! yet in the USA that is just the accepted price to pay for the capital outlay in the said facility, yet here at HD even some thought the weekends $30 was too much, i had such a good time i felt like giving them more money when i left, WHAT A BARGAIN. When i ship my Mustang to the Shelby Nationals at Somona(San Francisco) 2 years ago i tried to get out of the $1000US entry fee as i knew the event organizer personally, but he said he couldn't do this as the track hire alone was $30K a day, i felt guilty and paid as this was a once in a life time bucket list adventure for me!! but he said if the racers don't pay then they don't have an event, quite a sorry state if you ask me!! and that's why when i bought my American mate down 2 years ago, he couldn't believe how cheap it was and he was winning on the exchange rate as well. I actually shipped his Mustang to NZ and back cheaper than he can haul it up to Kent, Washington and back to his CA home. We are spoilt here NZ and we are truly the last frontier of the wages come poor-man racer, yet i had to travel overseas to find this out. Lets look at our Aussie Trans Am racers, they had the time of there lives, infact i should post some of the E-mails of thanks that myself, Jim, Tony and Chris received, they said they have never been treated so well at a major motorsport event and how well organised, welcoming and friendly we all are(take a bow you guys) just the little things like the grid stickers on your steering wheel, they had never seen that before and will now use that back in Aus!! I guess what im tryin to say is lets look at the BIG picture, and maybe for Hulme next year we may draw more spectators? but i have a funny feeling that RMG(post 51) is rite, that kiwi crowds are a fickle lot, and McLaren was a great crowd because it and the track was new, bit like the Supertourers? the recession we(and the world) is in is only a "state of mind" so once we get over that i guess things will look up and maybe, just maybe we will see some crowds back at Historic events, and really that's all there is too it.

Dale Mathers

[Neville Milne]

Neville
have you been to Virginia International Raceway yet? It's about 30 km from where I am based, VIR is a great circuit with excellent amenities, and although I haven't been back to HD, sounds like it is a similar set-up. VIR has bathrooms worthy of the Hilton!
Re Baltimore, I attended the inaugural Indycar event there last year, glad to se that they have scraped together the backing for this year too.
Grant Ellwood


Grant, I have not been to VIR, yet. Of late, work schedules and the restoration of both an old car and an even older house, have put a crimp in apre time activities. Over the years I have been lucky enough to get to Sears Point, Talladega, Daytona, Summit Point. Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen and Indy.
Like some, I was surprised that Baltimore managed to attract AND host an Indycar race...Although it was quite successful, from an attendance point of view, it was still problematic, financially, and that's with both city and state involvement and commitment. No wonder, then, that H/D are still finding their way. It's early days yet, for H/D; it's a brave effort and they deserve to succeed

[Steve Holmes]

We're living in a changing world, and as a form of entertainment, motorsport has had to adapt to the changing times. Modern day motorsport has to provide a more appealing package than it did 40 years ago. The paying public just won't accept watching one car drive off into the distance and win by 2 laps. The competition to relieve people of their hard-earned is huge, and if motorsport can't keep up with the times, it loses out. Thats why there are more and more racing formulae in which the cars are all identical. Like or hate it, there aren't enough enthusiasts for motorsport to survive, it has to appeal to the general public also. So the racing needs to be close and unpredictable, the cars loud, there needs to be an atmosphere, and if there is a crash or two, thats even better. NASCAR is a perfect example of this.

Historic racing is slightly different, it appeals to a different breed. But it still has to keep pace with the changing times. Consider the growth of discussion forums like this one, and compare them to magazines. Discussion forums are interactive. Everyone gets a voice, and gets to give their thoughts on a subject. A magazine is more one-sided. Before the arrival of the internet, magazines were it.

One of the best interactive historic racing events I've been to is the Australian Muscle Car Masters at Eastern Creek. That event attracts a larger crowd than the V8 Supercars when they race at Eastern Creek. And I think a large part of that is because the MCM is an interactive event. The organisers have built into the event the attraction of the car clubs, and those involved in the car clubs get to journey to the event with their club mates, and be part of the event, rather than just be there to be entertained. And there is a HUGE number of these people who attend so they can park their cars up together, interact with fellow members, and chat with fellow enthusiasts. I'd say a good portion of them don't even watch the racing, or even have an interest in the racing. But they've paid to be there, and the organisers benefit from them being there, both in terms of the dollars they pay to be there, and the additional crowds they attract. So the MCM is a sort of double-whammy. There are those who attend as spectators, to be entertained. And there are those who attend as car club members, to show off their cars and interact. Of course, you need the space to cater for all these car clubs, and even Eastern Creek is bursting at the seams. But its probably a nice problem to have.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[AMCO72]

Dale and Steve, thanks for your ususal well measured and thoughtful replies. And Dale, I hope all the exclamation marks after my remark on your wealth, not health, was an indication that my statement was 'foot in mouth', no thats not right...'tongue in cheek', Should have had a little LOL face there somewhere.

[timbo61]

I agree with everything said about the Muscle Car Masters at Eastern Creek.
It is very much a motor racing meeting designed for the fans at the track and not a television audience, which is what V8 Supercars is.
It is a very relaxed atmosphere, there is always something happening on the track, and once you are in the gate, you don't get charged an arm and a leg to sit in the grandstands or enter the pits like you do at V8 Supercars.
The end result is, a very large crowd.

[jim short]

Looking back way back 1955 the 2nd Ardmore G P .We sat on the back straight on the blanket and I quess it was boring except we had never seen such cars Bira in his blue and yellow 250f Gaze and Whithead red Ferraris plus diferent makes all making a great sound,close to 3 hrs they raced positions never realy changed,I remember the one car I really wanted to see was the Jaguar xk120 John Horton perhaps, sadly only showed itself towing the HWM {I may be wrong??}No a little spell helps Horton drove the ex. Gaze car of 54.The saloons what a mixture mk7 Jags down to Y model Fords,a morris minor was real quick Harrington perhaps Windlburn in a Austin a30??.But the sports cars were my favorite still are,.I sit up in the early hours of the morning watching Form.1 why ! man they can be boring why do we do it{this has been a senior moment}

[CUSTAXIE50]

Now oldfart- dont get off your bike i was having a laugh and some fun with what AMCO72 put up ,bouncy castles i dont recall saying that, now SPEEDWAY i see there is a big sprint car meeting in palmerston north this weekend the usa drivers will be there last year they were doing just over 13 sec lap times ,and one said if he had his car here from the usa he would be doing just over 11 sec lap times so if you want to see some all out balls racing get along this weekend ,and being the kids and get the cook out of the kitchen for a good night out allmost forgot the sidecars may be there also so get along and see some real racing, last weekend a lady came into the sidecar pits with her boy they just loved them the boy just wanted to know all about sidecars i told him to come back in 10 years ,these days i am into real speed bonneville and i am looking at going to wendover this year, i do have a bike in the shed that i started working on 18 years ago so maybe one day

[Howard Wood]

New Zealand Motor Racing has traditionally enjoyed huge crowds. The New Year meetings at Bay Park being a good example but probably for 90% of the paying spectators they were there for the accidents, looking at the bikini babes and drinking beer (not necessarily in that order) but it was the thing to do while on holiday and probably the best entertainment available and there was less competition for the entertainment dollar. Even more so, the claimed crowds at Ardmore were unbelievable, partly because it was new and exciting but let's be honest, in NZ at the time there was very little other entertainment on offer.

Because of the crowd revenue it was possible until the late '70's to pretty much fund your Motor Racing from prize money. Certainly I did but maybe we are just catching up with the real world.

In the '70's I spannered on a range of cars in Europe including Le Mans where the crowd number was estimated at 250,000 and European F3 Championship rounds where 3 men and a dog paid to go through the turnstiles. Why? Frankly the racing at Le Mans is boring but it was a "name event" but also a 24 hour carnival with bars, ferris wheels and the whole range of entertainment. European F3 by comparison was a grid of future F1 champions who were prepared to die for the cause and the racing was probably closer and harder than any other class anywhere in the world at the time. For a purist like me, no contest but the event was funded by the entrants which in this case was not an issue as it was the established way to F1 and the fields were over subscribed.

So we as historic racers (or the promotors) have to decide if we are entertainment or a niche sporting event funded by entry fees. Timing of the events to avoid clashes or to cash in on a ready made crowd as New Year Bay Park certainly helps and there does need to be other attractions but if our racing becomes "crash and bash" in order to satisfy the paying public, I for one will stop doing it.

[Grant Ellwood]

Neville, I'm with you in wishing Hampton Downs the best of luck in their very brave bid to build a world class circuit, and during the recession too, big cojones those guys!
VIR hosts some great events, about 8 spectator race meetings this year including ALMS which takes over from the Daytona Prototype round. They have a major vintage race around September but the biggest draw spectator-wise is the AMA motorbike event. Other club type races I attend are SCCA and SVRA (vintage) but spectators aren't encouraged, probably the insurance costs are too high for the clubs. VIR survives by hosting track testing, driver schools etc and with a combo of track layouts they sell about 450 days per year. I guess HD might be aiming for that broad market also.
When I moved here circa 1999 I was shocked to realise how popular NASCAR is, kind of like rugby is in NZ (I can only speak for my part of the east coast), for example when I go to diners for my cholesterol jolt the general topic of conversation from a cross section of all ages was how Earnhart was better than Gordon etc etc and most people are polarised around drivers or the four car manufacturers. Indycar, F1 never seem to get mentioned at this level, thank goodness for Speed Channel and Versus!
Dale Mathers also mentioned the high entry fees here and I agree with that, for me to run some vintage races fees and insurance are a major part of the budget, thousands not hundreds of bucks.



Grant, I have not been to VIR, yet. Of late, work schedules and the restoration of both an old car and an even older house, have put a crimp in apre time activities. Over the years I have been lucky enough to get to Sears Point, Talladega, Daytona, Summit Point. Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen and Indy.
Like some, I was surprised that Baltimore managed to attract AND host an Indycar race...Although it was quite successful, from an attendance point of view, it was still problematic, financially, and that's with both city and state involvement and commitment. No wonder, then, that H/D are still finding their way. It's early days yet, for H/D; it's a brave effort and they deserve to succeed

[kiwi285]

[QUOTE=Steve Holmes;10401]We're living in a changing world, and as a form of entertainment, motorsport has had to adapt to the changing times. Modern day motorsport has to provide a more appealing package than it did 40 years ago. The paying public just won't accept watching one car drive off into the distance and win by 2 laps. The competition to relieve people of their hard-earned is huge, and if motorsport can't keep up with the times, it loses out. Thats why there are more and more racing formulae in which the cars are all identical. Like or hate it, there aren't enough enthusiasts for motorsport to survive, it has to appeal to the general public also. So the racing needs to be close and unpredictable, the cars loud, there needs to be an atmosphere, and if there is a crash or two, thats even better. NASCAR is a perfect example of this.



I wholeheartedly agree with Steve here. I have been to about three Australian Muscle Car Masters and even when it is wet they seem to get great crowds. With the car clubs included there are as many cars in the car park areas as there are in the pit paddock worth looking at and photographing. There were as many people around the car club areas as there were in the pits and there were plenty of enthusiastic kids around as well. I think that the draw of Fathers Day also helps here.

I am looking forward to the Hulme Festival and feel sure that this will see a lift in entry numbers and attendance if we all do our parts and stir our mates and old motorsport friends to turn up and enjoy the experience.


Historic racing is slightly different, it appeals to a different breed. But it still has to keep pace with the changing times. Consider the growth of discussion forums like this one, and compare them to magazines. Discussion forums are interactive. Everyone gets a voice, and gets to give their thoughts on a subject. A magazine is more one-sided. Before the arrival of the internet, magazines were it.

One of the best interactive historic racing events I've been to is the Australian Muscle Car Masters at Eastern Creek. That event attracts a larger crowd than the V8 Supercars when they race at Eastern Creek. And I think a large part of that is because the MCM is an interactive event. The organisers have built into the event the attraction of the car clubs, and those involved in the car clubs get to journey to the event with their club mates, and be part of the event, rather than just be there to be entertained. And there is a HUGE number of these people who attend so they can park their cars up together, interact with fellow members, and chat with fellow enthusiasts. I'd say a good portion of them don't even watch the racing, or even have an interest in the racing. But they've paid to be there, and the organisers benefit from them being there, both in terms of the dollars they pay to be there, and the additional crowds they attract. So the MCM is a sort of double-whammy. There are those who attend as spectators, to be entertained. And there are those who attend as car club members, to show off their cars and interact. Of course, you need the space to cater for all these car clubs, and even Eastern Creek is bursting at the seams. But its probably a nice problem to have.

[Kiwiboss]

Don't forget that Sydney has over 3 Million people that all live in close proximity to Eastern Creek, of-course not living there we don't know what other automotive events are on but if they have that timed right it probably makes for the event they have, and i do agree that the car clubs and other added features help pull the punters!! and i've heard they may event move it to Melborne? What we need is someone here to step up and help poor old Jim Barclay with a similar arrangement!! any takers? and don't forget they can't even make the "Big Day Out" event for the kids work so we can't blame that on the age generation? i still think that us "Fickle" kiwi's will tackle certain events and then disappear to save up for another day. The Denny Hulme next summer will surely bring a larger crowd as even the name will conger up the more poorer of us Motorsport followers and public alike!!

Dale Mathers

[Steve Holmes]

Yep, Sydney has the population, but the Muscle Car Masters draws a larger crowd at that venue than the V8 Supercars. And yes, I agree, the Denny Hulme NZFMR in 2013 will be massive! The NZFMR really is a superb event, and Jim and the rest of his team should be proud of their efforts.

[Kiwiboss]

Interesting enough, after watching the news lastnight it seems that Otago Rugby, and Rugby in general is in financial trouble as well, with Waikato carrying big dept too, one comment from an offical was that the rugby season goes to long and not just the winter sport it use to be!! and with too many games the punters aren't coming out!!!wow!! give them all a ball i say!! So there you go, its not just Motorsport? its that "Fickle NZ Crowd" tryin to stretch that dollar!! under the circumstances Motorsport's probably not doing TOOO bad!!

Dale Mathers

[Lee Tracey]

Perhaps not fickle per se but just stretched for the Pingas so want to ensure they get the best value for money when they do spend. And Timing is very much an issue. With my job I generally have all my hols in Jan as it is the quietest time, however car interests alone that month include World 240s (speedway), Kumeu Show, FMR, probably at least one other Speedway event, add to that Ellerslie, Stockcar Teams, Galaxy of Cars all within the first two weeks of Feb plus whatever Tier 1 race meetings are happening in the top half of the NI and there are definitely more events than $$$. Not to mention the fact that the 240's (Fri & Sat nights) -Rotovegas, and Kumeu (Sat/Sun) and last year IIRC FMR were on the same weekend.

But agree Dale that as a sport we are definitely doing better than most sports, maybe what we need is to discover Crickets secret, as that is one sport I can not work out the finances of!

Cheers
Lee

[timbo61]

Yep, Sydney has the population, but the Muscle Car Masters draws a larger crowd at that venue than the V8 Supercars. And yes, I agree, the Denny Hulme NZFMR in 2013 will be massive! The NZFMR really is a superb event, and Jim and the rest of his team should be proud of their efforts.

The Muscle Car Masters at Eastern Creek is always held on Fathers Day, with the slogan of "Take Dad somewhere he really want's to go this Fathers Day", and it has been a very successful promotion with a lot of families in attendance. The trick is to get those people along to a "proper" Historic meeting.
Perhaps H.D. should start having a Muscle Car Masters type event.

[GD66]

Like the way you think, Timbo !:cool:

[Shano]

The Muscle Car Masters at Eastern Creek is always held on Fathers Day, with the slogan of "Take Dad somewhere he really want's to go this Fathers Day", and it has been a very successful promotion with a lot of families in attendance. The trick is to get those people along to a "proper" Historic meeting.
Perhaps H.D. should start having a Muscle Car Masters type event.

Simply brilliant.

[Lee Tracey]

Perhaps H.D. should start having a Muscle Car Masters type event.

How did the recent Chrome event go? Perhaps that might give an indicator.

Cheers
Lee

[AMCO72]

When do you think this was written?

The key to success, is to present a sound and raceworthy car, even if it is not tuned to give its full potential, on the starting grid for the first race of the series. Adherence as far as possible to this principle is essential for two reasons. Most members of the public, as opposed to enthusiasts, go to motoracing to be entertained. Unless the competition is keen they will seek less boring attractions. If there is no competition, there wont be many spectators, and if there aren't many spectators, there wont be many sponsors, many of whom look to motoracing as a means of advertising their products, many of which bear no relationship to cars or the motor business. Whether enthusiasts like it or not, the present relatively high level of New Zealand motoracing will not be maintained without this sponsorship.

Sounds like today, doesn't it. Actually it was written in 1972...40 years ago, as part of an article on saloon car racing. Taken from the Shell Book of Motoracing. Seems nothing changes!

[woody]

A good write up in this mornings Herald on page A7 about Hampton Downs. TR said "Cockroach" is playing games.

[Kiwiboss]

A good write up in this mornings Herald on page A7 about Hampton Downs. TR said "Cockroach" is playing games.

Received the article today via Mike Feisst(kiwi285) certainly made for interesting reading!!! can you imagine the political bullshit Tony and Chris have to put up with just to get this event, let alone run it!! makes you wonder whether its even worth it, but we have to presume as a track owners they need all the events they can get and this is certainly a big-gee.

You know the next comment will be "you can't see all the track at Hampton" sure as hell will be a S#@T load better than any street race, which is the very reason i only ever went to Hamilton once, viewing was terrible!! and can you imagine the spend to bring Pukee up to today's safety standards, that is one dangerous track for cars as fast as V8 Super-cars!!!

Interesting times ahead for sure!!!

Dale Mathers

[Kiwiboss]

Sounds like a done deal according to the radio today!!! the AKL super council will spent 10.5 Million on Pukekohe over the next 5 years for the Supercars!! quite amazing with the recent noise issue's let alone the poor facility's!! i guess been the council the can side step any resource consent issues and buy of the complainers!! Hmmmmmmmmmm

Dale M

[GeebeeNZ]

The Auckland Council spending millions on Pukekohe when we already have Hampton Downs is like Motorsport NZ spending money on what has become a second rate series called NZV8s. Its a no brainer. Its amazing what people do when they have someone elses money to spend.

[GD66]

I heard Cochrane (and that's as politely as I can describe the man) interviewed on SportFM here last summer when he was announcing the death knell of the Hamilton race (quite a different story from when he was trumpeting its' debut !) and he said then that there were NO suitable venues at all in NZ. The announcer, who had a clue, suggested HD may be a contender, and Cochrane instantly and sniffily dismissed it out of hand as unacceptable for V8SC requirements. Never having been there, I can only assume that means there aren't limitless swank penthouses for the free-grazing corporate elbow-rubbing hoi-polloi that get jammed into the best viewing spots at all their other circuits. On the surface of it, you would think Cochrane and his yes-men may co-operate with the HD developers to sort this seemingly-minor issue out to mutual gain, but if you're not prepared to kiss up to him, forget it. Does anyone remember why that lot stamped out of Pukekohe, vowing never to return, in the first place ? Sigh...:mad:

[Oldfart]

What is so great about the Aussie V8s that makes it worth worrying about them? Serious question!
Perhaps if the citizenry of the "Supercity" formed an uprising over the mis-spending of their rates there may be a result. Yeah right.
It seems that we get more and more imposed on us by the bureaucraps. The supercity itself being another example.

[RogerH]

I suppose a factor in the decision to go to Pukekohe was the fact that while Pukekohe lies within the Auckland City boundaries, Hampton Downs is 2km outside of the boundary in the Waikato District - despite each track being almost the same in travelling time from Auckland CBD. I couldn't imagine the Auckland City bureaucrats spending $$ (our money!!) in someone else's territory no matter how good the logic.

The only upside is that Pukekohe will be improved and then we will have two good circuits in the Auckland area.

[ERC]

Does anyone know if any proposed work at Pukekohe will mean the cancellation of meetings planned before the V8s?

Does anyone know if the planned upgrades will mean higher circuit hire fees and therefore, higher race entry fees and higher spectator admission fees?

[woody]

Does anyone know what the money will be spent on ie track surface or facilities or a corporate box for Len Brown.

[kiwi285]

Having seen the facilities recently I would think that the proposed money won't go that far to doing wehat is needed. The pit buildings were an eyesore.

[Kiwiboss]

Im sure there's alot more happening here that we could ever imagine!! first Hampton is privately owned and although it would be nice to see Hampton have the V8's and get finished can you imagine the public outcry of rate payers and gov money been spent on a privately owned race track, sure we all know they are struggling but i reckon once the dust settles over this they'll be better of, and i'll bet as i write this that there's no way they'll improve and upgrade Pukee for the cost's bandeed about, there'll be over runs and it'll all get messy and turn into a shit fight(though some contractors will do OK, thats if they get paid)!! im am though, all for pukee been upgraded as mentioned earlier on this forum, its another track to race on but from what i've heard theres other issues at hand once the V8 Super Circus leaves town anyway, that been noise for one!!.

Watch this space i guess

Dale M

[Racer Rog]

The issues that need to be addressed to get Puke to a state wher it can be raced on, with out gambling your life, can not be resolved on 10 million spent over 5 years, I wonder what MSNZ would have to say about track upgrades, they can not be seen to be any softer there, when other tracks are hammered. I rgards to them running at Hampton Downes, I would think that Tony and Chris would to a little bit hard nosed, in their dealings with T/C, and would want him to PAY THEM money, not the otherway round.
Roger

[Shano]

Rog, while I sympathise with your comments on the state of the track, my biggest concern as a spectator is the facilities at Pukekohe which are utterly appalling. I went to the first round of the V8s there and never went back. Wading through 30 metres of urine swamp to get to a foul, overflowing portaloo is not my idea of a good day out.

They crammed so much advertising hoarding and corporate grandstands onto the track that the sight lines were ruined - ditto for the bridge half way down the start/finish straight.

Where we do agree is that it needs way more than 10 mill spending on it and if Auckland council think they are going to get away with that they are dreaming. How much did it cost Hamilton? OK they won't have to drag concrete and wire barriers around to make the circuit but there is just as much preparation work needed in other areas.

No, the ratepayers of Auckland better bend over and enjoy what's coming...

[nigel watts]

When I made my one & only visit to the V8's at Hamilton I was shocked at the amount & loudness of the backfiring that goes on. They must block it out of the TV broadcast somehow but I can't imagine that the visitors to the shopping precinct, located hard up against the track boundary, will be too pleased with 3 days of very loud bangs.

[RogerH]

Im sure there's alot more happening here that we could ever imagine!! first Hampton is privately owned and although it would be nice to see Hampton have the V8's and get finished can you imagine the public outcry of rate payers and gov money been spent on a privately owned race track,

With respect Dale, I don't see a lot of difference between the taxpayers and ratepayers money going into a track owned by a private company (Hampton Downs) or a track owned by a limited membership club (Counties Racing Club who owns the Pukekohe track). Both entities are essentially private organisations, not public bodies.

[woody]

This morning's Herald. $1million a year to sponsor the weekend event, $454,000 in interest costs, $237,000 for the Counties Racing Club and $550,000 a year for marketing, transport and OTHER costs.

[Rod Grimwood]

Counties racing club have lived off motorsport for years, and done nothing to assist motorsport. They have let all the ammenities turn to crap and just ride along on motorsports back. Why do they get $237,000 and what will they do with it, bet they don't put one cent back into the amenities, what was once a grandstand is a bloody disgrace with the wooden slats rotten and broken or missing, steel frames rusted and shagged, covered in bird shit (if they cleaned it, it would most probably fall apart), shit house's just that. The hillstand is completly rooted with seating broken and missing, but apart from that its the same as it has been for years.
PS I am not a fan of horse's or the kind that tend to associate with them.
This post sponsored by FIDO

[ERC]

...not to mention a track surface through the left right onto the front straight, that was lethal the last time I drove it in the damp; (has it been improved?) plus an inadequate run off area where it is most needed - on the right hander onto the front straight.

I had a bad bang there back in 2003 that topped and tailed my car extensively as I spun and hit the concrete on the inside rather than hit a car that was on its roof and spinning towards the outside. Maybe concrete barriers so close to the track edges are the norm on a street circuit, but a permanent circuit needs run off areas and escape routes where possible and space isn't really a premium.

Pukekohe is not a good spectator circuit and particularly bad for an amateur photographer. The bridge over the front straight, whilst necessary for spectator movement, blocks out the view from the stand.

You can't easily spectate at normal meetings to get at the hairpin or the esses, as for some reason, these days, access is denied to both.

Inside the track at Hampton Downs has probably given me some of the best motorsport photographs I have ever taken, all from the public areas too.

[RogerH]

Following on from Ray's comments, it would be a real pity if Pukekohe is altered to a configuration that only really suits the Australian V8s that race on the track two or three days a year.
What about all the locals who run on it for the other 51 weekends who don't want a chicane on the back straight and don't want street circuit concrete barriers (from Hamilton) around the track.
In fact, if there were concrete barriers and catch fencing placed around the track (in lieu of run-off areas) then the track could actually be too unsafe for most historic and classic racers who don't have the levels of inherent car safety features such as comprehensive roll cages that are found in the Australian V8s.

[Kiwiboss]

With respect Dale, I don't see a lot of difference between the taxpayers and ratepayers money going into a track owned by a private company (Hampton Downs) or a track owned by a limited membership club (Counties Racing Club who owns the Pukekohe track). Both entities are essentially private organisations, not public bodies.

Yes, but the Counties Racing Club is a membership organisation benefiting the members(supposedly) which is probably many persons so the spread of funds would look to be allot more fairer were as Hampton is owned by 2 individuals or a company with shareholders(not sure how its structured) but what im really trying to say is its more HOW it would be perceived to the general public because we all know that any and all funding/$$ spent is going to be under extreme public scrutiny!!just need to read the herald this morning to know that!! and im not sure what Hampton's take is on all this as there's certainly been little or no mention in the papers or TV, in fairness its probably best they keep it that way and just carry on, business as usual(i guess)

Also, look at the Sydney Homebush street race held just down the road from Eastern Creek, you can't tell me that ain't political manoeuvring at its best!! without getting into detail, GO FIGURE?

As for me personally, i only ever went to the first and last Hamilton V8 race and that's only because i got a free invite, its not me so don't see me paying in the future, best watched on TV!! if Hampton held a Classic/Historic event on the same weekend, that's where I'd be!!

Dale M

[Oldfart]

What about the Mayor of Hamiltons accpetance of a price for all the grandstands WAY below valuation, then bleating about the cost of having the cars there.
I suppose (yeah right) that the incredibly cheap price will be passed on to Pukekohe. Laughs uproariously!

[Lee Tracey]

V8's returning to Puke - what a joke. There is no part of the facility that would meet the required standard to host the V8s in Oz - so how come it is allowed in NZ. Forget about the upgrades to the facilities for the fans, the Cockroach (as he is known to many Aussie race fans) is not interested in them. However the Teams will not accept 5 years of the crap facilities that are laughingly called 'The Pits' (or perhaps it is a very apt description) which will mean that in year 2 or 3 at the latest they will be rquired to be bulldozed and a complete new pit/race control/media area built. How much is budgeted for that? HD's non involvement - I would agree has more to do with the non kowtowing not totally overawed by the V8 'juggernaut' attitude of Tony and Chris. And Good on them!!

Re Hamilton's too cheap sell off of the infrastucture that was due to the apparently standard Bernie Jnr (the cockroach's other nickname) tactic of only giving council 48 hours to make a decision. Wondered at the time what his rush was as there was still 18 months to find a new round when he did it to Hamilton and at least 3 more months before he will have to finalise the 2013 calendar.

As the V8 show itself, will it actually be any good? There are two cars running this year with no spobnsorship. Apparently there are 19 cars with no major sponsor announced for next year - including both FPR cars an both T8 cars (though it seems fairly certain they at least have the sponsors but are just delaying the announcement)

/rant
Lee

[RogerH]

I think there is a lot of truth in your comments Lee. Unfortunately Mr C may have done a job on some gullible and ignorant local body bureaucrats and politicians.
I just can't understand how the bureaucrats from ATEED came up with their 50,000 visitor nights that generates the $7 million annual "benefit" to the Auckland ratepayers.
The last time the AV8s ran at Puke was in 2006 and the biggest attendance was on the Sunday when 42,400 turned up. It is generally accepted that 80% of the spectators would come from either Auckland or Hamilton (or surrounding local areas) - those people will travel back home at night and won't stay in local hotels or motels so can't qualify for generating ATEED's visitor nights projection. Of the remaining 20% (8,480 based on 2006 Sunday's peak attendance) some will stay with friends or family but even if we take an extreme position and say they all stayed in hotels and motels then that would produce 16,960 visitor nights over the weekend - a very long way from ATEED's 50,000!
The other thing is that attendance at the Aussie AV8 rounds has been dropping over the last few years and this was also evident at the Hamilton AV8 events with the first year total attendance of 172,000 and the last year falling to 105,000 - maybe its not as popular as it was?

[ERC]

Don't forget to add in the teams, 'officials' and 'freebies' to the attending numbers Roger.

Agree though, a lot of the figures bandied about are very questionable.

What I find puzzling is that when we used to get our "Football Post" at 5pm on a Saturday night in the UK, or, even today, the Weekly (UK) Express, the attendance figures for all 4 UK soccer divisions are always published.

I question why NZ never publishes attendance figures for all Rugby/League and cricket matches, or horse racing events. The NZ "Rugby, Racing, Beer" obsession never seems to extend to crowd figures, yet the rugby and racing (cricket in the summer) seems to take up most of the sporting section of the newspaper every day, not to mention several exclusive TV channels, yet we have no idea how many people are the remotest bit interested. I wonder why?

I am sure that the real obsession with horse racing has nothing whatever to do with the actual potential dogmeat on the turf, but every thing to do with gambling. I doubt that the average punter would know whether the horse was black, chestnut or purple with pink spots.

Meanwhile, the Monday Herald had no race report on the Aussie V8s last weekend, just a couple of column centimetres on the results. The general media can make or break any event and the Herald is only really interested in the politics, not the event or the sport.

Who is televising the V8s next season? TV3 are apparently out. TV1 is out, so if it is free to air, that also rules out Sky - unless they televise it and put it out through Prime.

[Habu]

Time to add my uneducated 5 cents worth to this interesting debate...

I for one, have never attended a V8 Supercar meeting, and have no intention of. The idea of spending hard earned money on overpriced tickets, and having to spend my time listening to the ramblings of some clown sitting next to me talk about how much better they could steer a car around the track than professional drivers doesnt bear consideration. The great Ford / Holden debate doesnt appeal. Joe Public has been brainwashed into the belief the cars they watch actually have a relationship with something that is sold from the showroom floor.
How Pukekohe has been selected as a suitable venue over Hampton Downs is just another demonstration of how taxpayers will be used as the pawns to justify New Zealands association with V8 Supercars. Pukekohe is a dinosaur, and the amount of money needed to be spent on it wont make a lick of difference to its layout. Anything spent will only be for the pleasure of Mr Cochrane, and a weak attempt to justify involvement in this country. Hampton Downs is a superior spectator facility, and the official statement that its non-selection is based purely on its proximity, only reinforces the brown and mushy that the V8 Supercar franchise continues to sell to its guillible partners.

Irrespective of the view of ownership of either track, Hampton Downs as a venue offers much more to Joe Public in the way of value for money from a spectators point of view, than Pukekohe will ever be capable of. As a ratepayer from "Jafa land", and despite being an avid supporter / competitor in motorsport, Im none too happy about having to "bend over" and take whats coming.
I'll wager that despite the enormous loss the Hamilton ratepayers have suffered, they will ultimately be the ones who get to laugh last at their neighbours north of the Bombays......

[ERC]

Good post. I think you echo the view of a lot of people in Jafa land who are still enthusiasts.

[RogerH]

Looks like Hampton Downs has finally got it's consent for 50,000 spectators :


Media Release
28th August 2012
HAMPTON DOWNS RESOURCE CONSENT APPROVED
Resource consent enabling daily spectator numbers to be increased from 20,000 to 50,000 for major events has been approved for the Hampton Downs International motor racing circuit.
The Waikato District Council approved the Resource Consent application this week and the documentation was received by Hampton Downs management today.
“This is the start of an exciting new development phase for Hampton Downs,” said Tony Roberts, the Managing Director of the 450 acre Motorsport Park located 60km south of central Auckland.
“This is a very important day for the future of Hampton Downs as New Zealand’s premier motor racing facility” said Roberts, “This approval enables Hampton Downs to host major national and international events; and also removes the impediment that V8 Supercars said prevented it from bringing their event to New Zealand’s best race circuit.”
“Hampton Downs is just 40 minutes from the centre of Auckland City and the road is dual carriageway motorway for the entire 60kms. Already Hampton Downs has 250,000 people passing through its gates each year and 2.5 million people reside within 90 minutes of the circuit. This consent allows for the continuing development of Hampton Downs.”
Hampton Downs worked closely with the Waikato District Council and the New Zealand Transport Agency to develop practical solutions for the anticipated traffic volume at major event with up to 50,000 spectators per day.
“In particular I would like to thank Nath Pritchard and the team at Waikato District Council who provided assistance in processing this Resource Consent and the support of the New Zealand Transport Agency, who worked through the issues in a positive manner”
Parking will be available for up to 9,150 vehicles at the Motorsport Park, and to accommodate the remaining car parking demand and ensure that traffic is efficiently distributed on the roading network, park-and-ride facilities will be established at Mercer and the nearby Meremere Drag racing facility.
“This Resource Consent secures our long term future because the way is now clear for Hampton Downs to fully achieve its potential; and become a significant event centre and tourist attraction for the Auckland and Waikato regions.”
“Future development will provide significant economic benefits for both Auckland and the Waikato region.”
Construction of the Hampton Downs Motorsport Park commenced in early 2007, with the original Resource Consent authorising the establishment and operation of the Motorsport Park and the establishment of various business, industrial and rural-residential uses on and around the Motorsport Park site, including 80 apartments.

For further information please contact:
Tony Roberts
Managing Director Hampton Downs
Telephone: +64-9-280 6584
Mobile: +64-21-133 2895
Email: tony@hamptondowns.com
Website: www.hamptondowns.com/

[John B]

Bloody great news!

[kiwi285]

Have sent an email to Chris, Tony and the team congratulating them on a job well done. I see that the total attendance figures for last year were 250K Bloody great job !!

[Lee Tracey]

Speaking of the attendance requirements it seems Mr Cochrane overates his series judging by the 24,000 total weekend crowd at the Eastern...I mean Sydney Motorsport Park round last weekend.

Cheers
Lee

[ERC]

Still away overseas but best news I have had on the whole trip! Justifies the faith we had from day 1.

Back for Sunday's Icebreaker (will miss Saturdays as still in mid air!)