Dave Silcock Jags

[105angria]

An Old mate dropped over with some old instamatic pics of Wigram had a shot of the awesome Red ,lightweight E type with the high wing, any pics or info on this great car, please

[bry3500]

Can you post those instamatic shots Angria?

[kiwi285]

There is an article on Dave and the car in Classic Driver magazine. I have just finished reading a copy of the article supplied to me by a member. Not sure at the moment of which issue it was in.

I think that the red lightweight car you are referring to might be the Scott Wiseman car which I believe still exists in Christchurch. If this is so there are a couple of photos of it in amongst my photos posted on this site.

[GD66]

There are a couple of pics of this Jag already on the forum, in the Mike Feisst collection Part 1 thread, at the bottom of page 11 in the General Discussion index. It was entered and driven by Harding Scott-Wiseman, and caused much drooling and gurgling amongst spectators...

[105angria]

thats it scott wiseman, will get istamatic pics and blow them up,

[David McKinney]

Surname Wiseman, Christian names Harding Scott
Same as Hawthorn, John Michael

And, contrary to the general belief at the time, the E-type was NOT a lightweight

[GD66]

Roger, Blue Leader. Stand corrected on the hyphenation, but I'm sure I read it in a mag of the time. He was invariably entered in the programme as nothing more ornate than simply Scott Wiseman. However, I remain resolute that the sight and sound of the thing wailing round DID cause drooling and gurgling, irrespective of the relative avoirdupois....

[Oldfart]

Not "A" liightweight but was somewhat lightened. The replacement tailgate alone was a huge saving. The noise was pretty good, the wing a real eye opener. Another ex Buckler driver!

[pallmall]

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/RANDOM/WisemanJag001Quicke-mailview.jpg

[jim short]

Hi scott wiseman worked for jaguar but the E was never a liteweight

[jim short]

now and for sometime with ray larsen rangiora of d type builder fame

[105angria]

from elsewere on site

[105angria]

more pics from elsewere on site

[AMCO72]

Jim, why was that aerofoil so high above the roof line. We know from wind tunnel tests, that the air flow over the body would follow the roof quite closely. I think when F1 cars first had aerofoils they were also very high but soon came down. And look at the foils on the NZ V8's....tucked in behind the rear window. Was this car a successful race car?

[stubuchanan]

Almost literally "In Your Face"

http://s6.postimage.org/qz952em0h/Silcock_Beached_Jaguar.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
image hosting jpg (http://postimage.org/)

Baypark December 1969

[105angria]

wigram

[Oldfart]

Jim, why was that aerofoil so high above the roof line. We know from wind tunnel tests, that the air flow over the body would follow the roof quite closely. I think when F1 cars first had aerofoils they were also very high but soon came down. And look at the foils on the NZ V8's....tucked in behind the rear window. Was this car a successful race car?

A lot of the "research" which was done in the time was to put foils in "freeflow" air. Why did foils come down... the rules made it compulsory.
Would they have come lower by themselves? Who knows, possibly.
The rules also mandated that they could only be mounted to the chassis, not the suspension uprights too.
Remember that all this was prior to real windtunnel stuff, and much of what was done was often because someone else did it. McLaren wings were tested on a Mini van on an airfield, Jim Halls' Chaparlas had high wings and he had access to more tech stuff than most others.

[Steve Holmes]

A lot of the "research" which was done in the time was to put foils in "freeflow" air. Why did foils come down... the rules made it compulsory.
Would they have come lower by themselves? Who knows, possibly.
The rules also mandated that they could only be mounted to the chassis, not the suspension uprights too.
Remember that all this was prior to real windtunnel stuff, and much of what was done was often because someone else did it. McLaren wings were tested on a Mini van on an airfield, Jim Halls' Chaparlas had high wings and he had access to more tech stuff than most others.

Gerald, as Oldfart has correctly pointed out, the FIA brought in the rules to ban the high suspension mounted aerofoils in F1 from the 1969 season, following some failures at high speed. They also banned them in the Can-Am, but their decision to do this came too late to be considered safe for the 1969 season, as many teams had already developed cars with these wings.

Jim Hall appears to be the first to have tried them in Can-Am, and USRRC, in 1966. Its interesting that McLaren didn't fit them to their cars until 1969. Its true, many mounted them to their cars because they saw others doing it. The difference was, some knew why they were doing it, others didn't. Also, some knew what shape the wing itself should be, and how air flowed over and under it, others didn't. I was told once that a racing car wing needs to have a larger face underneath, than that on top, so the air travels faster underneath than it does over the top, to help pull the wing down. I don't know if thats correct or not.

I recall reading a story many years ago about a privateer Porsche in the late 50s or early 60s that had an aerofoil mounted very high above the car, and which was quite effective. Can anyone give more info on this? I think this was considered the first time this was tried. And yes, the theory is that the air is cleaner way up there, away from the turbulent airflow that surrounds the car body.

[Howard Wood]

Steve you will get your hand spanked by the forum creator for getting so far off topic!

Early race car aero aids were very much from the "angled bit of tin" school of design but you are quite correct, a proper aerofoil shape has a curved, almost teardrop shaped face on the side you want the force, ie underneath to create down force and curved on the upper side on aircraft to produce lift. However in aircraft terms most race cars are travelling at below stall speed and therefore also need wing angle as laminar flow alone is not enough.

Theoretically a wing in clean air will produce more down force which is why they were initially high mounted but for obvious safety reasons this was banned so more thought went into creating clean air to the now lower mounted wing. Despite this being forced by rule makers, in reality the trade off between down force and drag may well have lowered the wings anyway.

We did extensive wind tunnel tests with the '77 deCadenet Le Mans car and found that the full width rear wing gave the same downforce when tucked behind the bodywork but with a massive reduction in drag, ie something for nothing. It seemed the air tumbled off the rear of the engine cover and onto the wing.

[David McKinney]

I recall reading a story many years ago about a privateer Porsche in the late 50s or early 60s that had an aerofoil mounted very high above the car, and which was quite effective. Can anyone give more info on this? I think this was considered the first time this was tried. And yes, the theory is that the air is cleaner way up there, away from the turbulent airflow that surrounds the car body.
That'll be the car Michael May ran at the Nürburgring in 1956

[Oldfart]

[QUOTE=Howard Wood;7706]Steve you will get your hand spanked by the forum creator for getting so far off topic!

Early race car aero aids were very much from the "angled bit of tin" school of design

I am not sure that I totally agree Howard. Some yes but..
Have a look at Chaparal, one of the leaders, they knw well about endplate and assymetric foils, as did the one on Scotts' Jag. Likewise the ones tested on the Mini van at Colerne and other places by Bruce.
One I did for a lower powered sprint car was calculated to be producing over 500 pounds of downforce at 75mph with much less frontal drag than the flat tin ones. Then we realised that a fair bit of sprint car wing is just to hold up the "sails" on the sides!

[seaqnmac27]

48444845484648474848

This is a very interesting thread to me These 5 pics show 2 different Silcock Jags in very different settings. There are the 2 pics my dad took from Pukekohe, not sure which year, however the other 3 are from the Noosa Classic Car SHow of 2009 and it shows the Silcock XK120? in a state of restoration.

[Howard Wood]

O.F, I should of course have said "MOST early race car aero aids" because there have always been some clever bastards out there. Interesting you mention sprint cars, a subject I know absolutely nothing about except that looking at the way they have evolved with enormous end plates suggests that the rudder effect may be as much their main funtion as pure down force. Do they put vertical angled flaps on the rear of the end plates. a form of trim tab? The end plates on a circuit car are primarily to prevent air spilling off the sides of the wing (and somewhere to place sponsor's messages) and as such don't need to be much bigger than the wing profile, and would probably follow the wing profile if the height regulation allowed it.

[Steve Holmes]

That'll be the car Michael May ran at the Nürburgring in 1956

Thats the one David! Brilliant. Again, I'm working from memory here, but I vaguely recall this car was faster than the factory team cars, and as such, they protested the wing, citing it hindered viewing. Not sure how true that story was, or if it was one of those stories that gets tweaked slightly every time its told. Either way, it seems the wing wasn't tried again?

[AMCO72]

Definately NOT the Silcock X Brian Middlemass XK 120. That car was well up and running by 2007. Different number of louvres on the bonnet.....similar bulge to cover webers, but Silcock car's bonnet was not chopped off above the grill. No wires etc etc etc...... The real thing was for sale for $80,000 3 or 4 years ago. Dont know whether it sold, but certainly did not need re-restoring in 2009.

[seaqnmac27]

That is very interesting because I was just going from the articles they had about the car in front. Itr makes sense as I looked for it again last year, as they said they were going to be bringing it back each year until the project was complete and it wasn't there last year, unfortunately I didn't get there this year.

[AMCO72]

JIM......calling JIM from 'Tok' .....come in JIM. Thats a big ten-four JIM. Info on the XK needed by 'historians'.

[thunder427]

.....Plus the Silcock XK120 was 'Black', as stated in another thread on this subject, I rode in the XK in the early 60's ,had drilled wheel for brake cooling and the bonnet had leather strap ,very 'thoroughbred' looking!!!!...regards thunder427/MJ

[AMCO72]

XK120 is now dark green. Owned by Bryan Wyness in Auckland last time I looked. Think Bryan is a pilot with AirNZ, or something to do with AirNZ....maybe a technician....'mechanic'!!!!!

[AMCO72]

seaqnmac27.......are these guys in Oz CLAIMING this to be THE Silcock XK or are they just building a 'replica' of it. This is just what we have been hammering out in the 'race replica debate' with the custaxie. I guess there are other replica XK's out there in NZ but they are not claiming to be the real thing. The car is too well known here for that to happen, but there are still some cheeky devils out there willing to give it a go!!!!!! JIM from Tok......come in please.

[markec]

In the pits

[Rod Grimwood]

Lyall Martin who had Lyall's Carpainters on the shore painted Daves 120 and yes it was a very dark green. Lyall actually did all Daves work back then. He painted a few classic cars and alot of race cars overh the years.

[AMCO72]

I'm not sure when you look at seaqnmac27's photos, whether you can tell if the body is aluminium or not. Daves', the X Middlemass car was a genuine early aluminium bodied car.....one of the first approx 250 made. The park lights are chromed attachments, not welded and leaded as on the metal bodies. When the car first raced it was on drilled disc wheels...must have been Middlemass who converted to wires. Dave originally bought the car from Sydenham Park Car Sales.....yes Ron Sylvester, for 375 pounds!!! AL6246 was to do a lot of racing miles in the next decade.

[thunder427]

.....David worked at A.R.Mackay's,the Christchurch Routes Group Agent ,also sold Plymouth's (Savoy, with the fantastic fins!!!) were he was a mechanic,I believe on the Commer trucks,I'm thinking the Jag had a dark colour trim, my mind keeps telling me perhaps an Dark Olive Green ?!!!!!!!! ..........regards thunder427/MJ:cool:L

[bob homewood]

Lyall Martin who had Lyall's Carpainters on the shore painted Daves 120 and yes it was a very dark green. Lyall actually did all Daves work back then. He painted a few classic cars and alot of race cars overh the years.

Lyall painted all Don McMillans cars as well ,from memory there was a family connection between Dave Silcock and "Big Don "

[ged]

are we sure middlemas car is x silcock if not brians take on what competion 120 should look and go like was great. i was a big fan . Maybe a thread could be started on his work and influence on the classic scene

[AMCO72]

Yes ged, the Brian Middlemass car was definately the x Silcock machine, and it was Brian that really made the thing go, taking it to a whole new level of performance and probably driving, although Dave was no slug behind the wheel. And yes thunder427 the trim is now a medium to dark green, but has been reupholstered at some stage in vinyl....but nicely done.

[David McKinney]

All this talk of the ex-Silcock XK120 - he raced two. The first was AL6256, later campaigned by Middlemass, and the other AR325. Both were originally steel-bodied

[AMCO72]

Well there you go. It takes a historiain to set the record straight. How thinks do get muddled in the mists of time. Bloody amateurs!!!![Me]

[AMCO72]

Ok.......I am glad that NZ's foremost Motoring Historian has put me straight on that, and that I may have posted some incorrect information, but I am now totally confused. I drove ONE of these cars in about 1974/5 when it was owned, briefly, by Chris Lachner in the JDC. He was using it as a road car...totally unsuitable, no hood, and had come out to the farm to show it off to me. We went for a 'burn' up the Bruntwood Straight...[see yards and yarns 141/142] and had no sooner pulled back into the yard, when there was an ominous clanking from the engine and everything went dead. Chris, who was a singer of some note, had a rehearsal to go to, so we loaned him a car, and pushed the dead XK into the barn. Over the next week or so I dismantled it to find the problem, which should have been obvious....was in fact the timing chain. My JDC friend eventually retrieved the car and I lost contact. NOW, the puzzle is this. Was it AL6246 or AR325 ????? It definately had wire wheels so was PROBABLY AL6246. So, the car in Australia could be AR325....the second of the XK's with the steel wheels, of which I was totally ignorant at the time. Remember these were just troublesome old English sports cars, and this was reflected in what we paid for them back then.....about a $1000 dollars in my case for the XK120C. The fact that FAZZAZ sold AL6246 for $80,000 thirty years on reflects the way the Classic car scene went. SO, seaqnmac27....the car you saw in OZ could have been AR325....certainly had the right wheels. Need to enlarge the sign-board at the front of the car to see what it says. Perhaps you can remember. Now if Jim from Tok had come to my rescue early in the piece I wouldn't have made this stupid mistake. Come in Jim!!!!

[David McKinney]

AR325 is indeed in Australia, and AL6246 in Christchurch

The car Chris Lachner owned was not ex-Silcock, but the ex-Ray Archibald/Alf Bell car (raced in the '50s rather than the '60s). Last I heard it lived in Pukekohe

[AMCO72]

Goodness......another iconic car. We, or should I say David, will get this Jaguar thing sorted for me eventually. I dont remember the car having much get up and go.....probably all the 'good stuff' was removed or wornout over the years. What I do remember was the noise!!!!A short pipe exiting out the side....great. Someone must know of this cars' whereabouts. You cant have the name Archibald on the ownership papers without drawing some attention. And it was 'funny'....fortunate, that the timing chain.....the first one from the crank, didnt break when we were in the middle of our 'burn'. Incredible really.

[kiwi285]

In a back issue of 'Classic Driver' Allan Dick wrote an article on Dave Silcock and his Jaguars. He mentioned that Dave was currently working on another Jaguar that he wanted to race. The article was written a couple of years ago but I have never heard of this car making it to the tracks. Does anyone know what happened to this car and whether it is stil around ?

[AMCO72]

Another correction!!!! In an earlier post I said that the first Silcock Jaguar had been purchased by Bryan Wyness. Wrong!! Bryan has actually got the ex Archibald car, and IT is in fact the one that I drove in about 1974 when owned by Chris Lachner. I used to think that I knew quite a bit about Jaguars, especially old ones, but clearly both my memory and knowledge are woefully inadequate. The car that kiwi285 is referring to would be the special mk2 saloon that Dave was building with a very special engine. Dont know how far he has got with the project, but one Jim Short will probably know.

[seaqnmac27]

HI Gerald. I am sorry but I had thought I had taken close ups of the information about the Jag, obviously I was wrong because they are nowhere on my hard drive. I will however contact the Noosa Car Club who runs this show and see if I can get some information.

[Milan Fistonic]

Dave Silcock in his XK120 at Pukekohe in February 1967.

4972

[terry mcgrath]

the pic of Silcock in the XK120 posted by milan is his second XK120 chassis number 660206 the car currently in Qld Australia owned by ex new zealander matthew noble.
If any one is interested in the full history of all three Silcock XK120's I suggest you have a look at our new XK120 book that covers the history of all new zealand XK120's
We are working on the 140 volume at present
terry mcgrath

Now Available and almost half of the limited edition sold

The long awaited for, second edition of the book "the Jaguar XK in
Australia" is in fact 1/3 of a 3 volume trilogy.
This just on 500 page, large size format 335mm x 247mm (13"x 10"), full colour book covers
the histories of some almost 1000 XK120's in Africa, Asia, Australia/NZ and
South America.
It contains almost 1,100 photos of which only 25 appear in the original volume.

Sample Pages at http://www.jtpublications.com.au/book/
Visit: www.jtpublications.com.au for full details



CONTACT: tmcgrath@bigpond.com

[Rod Grimwood]

Lyall painted all Don McMillans cars as well ,from memory there was a family connection between Dave Silcock and "Big Don "

Talking with Lyall yesterday, and he said Daves cars he painted were British Racing Green. He also painted Dons Jag that Dave raced and that was the dark blue that it has been restored to by Mr Johns.

[markec]

David McK, is it correct to your knowledge, that the now Bert Govern Jag is the ex Athol McBeath/ Ron Sylvester car. That would be the car Ron rolled at a meeting at Ruapuna.

[David McKinney]

Sorry, Mark, don't know that one

But I can say that all the magazines that referred to Athol McBeath were mistaken - his name was Alistair:)

[bob homewood]

Sorry, Mark, don't know that one

But I can say that all the magazines that referred to Athol McBeath were mistaken - his name was Alistair:)

Thanks David ,Yes sometimes things are not what they say or seem,you have to rely on age ,knowledge and from someone who was actually there

[markec]

Murray Baker told me a couple of weeks ago that it was, he would have been there in that era so I guess he is correct.I thought I had a pic of it after Ron rolled it, he was heading out to participate in a later race on the same day, the right rear roof was a little rearranged.

[markec]

4986

[markec]

Silcock Jag 2

[terry mcgrath]

presumably the person you refer to is bert govan of Fendalton the owner of XK120 660535 ????
the full history of the car can be seen at http://www.jtpublications.com.au/book/ or are you refering to the Silcock race prepared MK2 noted at the time as prepared to group 4 specs?
terry


David McK, is it correct to your knowledge, that the now Bert Govern Jag is the ex Athol McBeath/ Ron Sylvester car. That would be the car Ron rolled at a meeting at Ruapuna.

[markec]

Sorry Terry, I was away from the original topic and was referring to the MK 2 sedan that Mr Govern of Fendalton has owned for many years.

[markec]

Away from the subject again, I have had a 1963 MK11 3.8 4 speed, no overdrive, stored in one of my garages up till 4 months ago, it is now back with its owner. Dark blue, it was reputed to have been owned by the wife of one of the partners of an Auckland Jaguar dealer, and that it had some competition history. I checked back as far as I could, but as it was re registered with new plates the trail went cold and I could not track down the owner of the time of the re registration.Any Idea's where to look, the officialdom were most unhelpful as was the dealer as no reply was received.

[David McKinney]

...and it was ungracious of me not to credit Terry's fine book as my source for the information on the Silcock XK120s

[jim short]

HI the new jag may may be at ruapuna meet scope ,without doubt it will be some car 600lbs lighter 400hp.!!!and loverly to look at but his main interest is in the building

[AMCO72]

Jim, thank goodness you are back.....too many pre Chistmas wines!!!! Here was I getting into all sorts of strife over the Silcock XK's, and you weren't coming to my rescue. As I said, you probably know almost as much about Daves cars as he does. Hope the MK II does make it to Skope, but like all us old fellas, his driving perhaps isn't quite what it used to be. Never mind just seeing and HEARING it will be a treat. You and I need to catch up, will see you at the Festival if not before.

[jim short]

sorry amco but have been away not sure whats going on but dave had 3 xks the one in aussie was the light one that he sold to a sailor who wrapped around a pole more than once the next one was the one he raced the most when he sold it he put the od part into his 120coupe and what a loverly car that was sold to grant mcmillan son of daves sponser had it for quite some time.His next car was the mk 2an ins write off the one in the photos alan dick did a great write up on in auto action {i think} 1970 sold that to the ??south island clive gott brought it back to auck. altered it dramacally? {he still has more parts than anyone of the original car .mike john had dave build a copy using a daimler body only parts of the steering i beleve went into it!!! last time out ran as the millen car !!!!! The archibald car rob whithouse ran at the Admore reunion at puke sold to brian whyness? sadly most of the good parts in archibalds was taken out by a couple jag fans i papatoe!!!!

[jim short]

just been imformed i am not quite correct Watsons jag book has it correct as dave wrote it. he also maintains he is quicker than ever amco take note he still brakes at the same spot but as you grow older of course your reactions are slower there by you lap faster!!!

[AMCO72]

Yes Jim, that dark green XK 120 coupe was just gorgeous. He had it at a Rotorua JDC rally in 1968/9.....the year we won everything in the old 2 1/2 litre MK 4. You will remember. Is the coupe still around? Would love to see it again. I wonder who the 'jag fans' in Papatoetoe were/are.....not the first time special bits have been robbed, eh Jim!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know when I drove the X Archibald car it was pretty 'dead'....I think someone had stuffed an old MK 7 engine into it. Your dead right about slow reactions.....I imagine I am still driving the SS with its terrible...ie hopeless brakes, and truck-like steering, not the Mini.

[jim short]

amco the wing was worth so many seconds at puke dave silcock remembers, as he at marave by the town hall used to work on it

[Dave Silcock]

It is very interesting and somewhat humbling to read all this discussion on my old cars. You seem to have got it right in the end between all of you. Its a pity Jim of Tok did not talk me into joining up earlier than he did . I could have saved you all a lot of trouble. The Wiseman E type has engaged a few of you and as I worked on this machine almost from the time he imported it from the Uk I may be able to cast some much needed light on the subject. First thing this car was a very scruffy Brit club racer. It had a fiber glass bonnet which was very thick and not that light, the perspex back door, Minilight wheels and the usual Mk 9 brakes which were the go in those days . It also had a 4.2 all synchro gear box and massively stiff anti roll bars. The engine was an almost stock 3.8, standard cams ,valves and carburetors. Scot was on of those drivers who was absolutely fearless, but did not have a clue when he was on the limit. Don't you hate racing against those sort of people, they will beat you unless they crash, which they will do. His big on was at Levin, I told Mark Petch, my partner in Marave that he was, about two corners before, it was going to happen. The famous wing was in fact designed at Air NZ and had from memory about 100lbs down force at 100mph. Mark and I thought this whole thing was a bit of PR bullshit, Scot was very good at this, so made him remove it at testing at Pukekohe. The car was several seconds slower with out the wing and in fact could not bet my time in AR 325 without it. Thats it for now, we are not all retired you know Jim!

[jim short]

Or come on dave i worked long hard hours all my life .i didnt get to were i am today on someones back like your chromed mate.and if you think being a consultant is easy you try and organise these kids!!

[AMCO72]

Thank goodness for that. At last, straight from the horses mouth!!! As I said to Jim, if he had come to my rescue early in the piece I would not have got myself into so much strife. Dont know how much spare time you have got Dave, what with building the new MKII and all, but is good to see you on here, and I am sure there is lots you can tell us about your racing exploits. By the way, how is the new car coming along. Jim thought it might be ready for Skope.....is this a possibility? Another legendary Silcock Jaguar. And dont get stuck into poor old Jim. He is feeling his age these days, what with all those years driving logging trucks, he has stuffed his back, and needs to take a shooting-stick to race meetings so he can have a sit down from time to time. Us old 73 year olds need a bit of respect!!!!!!

[jim short]

i will need to think about a reply bloody cheek..not my fault son praised lyne rogers for his fresh motor!!!{does all the work himself!!}

[jim short]

Man i enjoy this site

[terry mcgrath]

this is an attempt to post a pic of a sample page from our new XK120 book showing the page of the history of 660206 terry

5369

not the easiest system in the world for posting pics, computers are suppose make life simple!

Now Available and more than half of the limited edition sold

The long awaited for, second edition of the book "the Jaguar XK in
Australia" is in fact 1/3 of a 3 volume trilogy.
This just on 500 page, large size format 335mm x 247mm (13"x 10"), full colour book covers
the histories of some almost 1000 XK120's in Africa, Asia, Australia/NZ and
South America.
It contains almost 1,100 photos of which only 25 appear in the original volume.

Sample Pages at http://www.jtpublications.com.au/book/
Visit: www.jtpublications.com.au for full details



CONTACT: tmcgrath@bigpond.com

[Steve Holmes]

Thats fantastic Terry, congratulations.

[jim short]

No NO Berts car was owned by some Sir ??? not Allisters Dave will explain shortly when he calms down!!!

[Dave Silcock]

.....David worked at A.R.Mackay's,the Christchurch Routes Group Agent ,also sold Plymouth's (Savoy, with the fantastic fins!!!) were he was a mechanic,I believe on the Commer trucks,I'm thinking the Jag had a dark colour trim, my mind keeps telling me perhaps an Dark Olive Green ?!!!!!!!! ..........regards thunder427/MJ:cool:L

Hi Thunder, A bit wrong there about the employment .I served my time at Farrier Waimak, a local cartage and road building company under Jack Crowe who was Trevors father. He joined the firm a bit later and then both of us went out the Shell Garage that Jack and a relation had bought at Tempelton. I later worked for WJ Scotts on Mercedes Benz in the building used by the Press at the end New Regent St. The Rootes Group outfit were on the Manchester St corner and a young chap called Paul Kirk worked there so maybe thats where the mixup arose
Cheers Dave

[Steve Holmes]

It is very interesting and somewhat humbling to read all this discussion on my old cars. You seem to have got it right in the end between all of you. Its a pity Jim of Tok did not talk me into joining up earlier than he did . I could have saved you all a lot of trouble. The Wiseman E type has engaged a few of you and as I worked on this machine almost from the time he imported it from the Uk I may be able to cast some much needed light on the subject. First thing this car was a very scruffy Brit club racer. It had a fiber glass bonnet which was very thick and not that light, the perspex back door, Minilight wheels and the usual Mk 9 brakes which were the go in those days . It also had a 4.2 all synchro gear box and massively stiff anti roll bars. The engine was an almost stock 3.8, standard cams ,valves and carburetors. Scot was on of those drivers who was absolutely fearless, but did not have a clue when he was on the limit. Don't you hate racing against those sort of people, they will beat you unless they crash, which they will do. His big on was at Levin, I told Mark Petch, my partner in Marave that he was, about two corners before, it was going to happen. The famous wing was in fact designed at Air NZ and had from memory about 100lbs down force at 100mph. Mark and I thought this whole thing was a bit of PR bullshit, Scot was very good at this, so made him remove it at testing at Pukekohe. The car was several seconds slower with out the wing and in fact could not bet my time in AR 325 without it. Thats it for now, we are not all retired you know Jim!

I'm loving your input Dave, its great to have you here. On the Wiseman E Type, where were the bottom mounts of the wing struts attached to? Was it the bodywork, or the rear suspension? And did he tell you where he got the idea for adding the wing from?

[Dave Silcock]

I'm loving your input Dave, its great to have you here. On the Wiseman E Type, where were the bottom mounts of the wing struts attached to? Was it the bodywork, or the rear suspension? And did he tell you where he got the idea for adding the wing from?
Hi Steve, the wing struts were on the boot floor and were located fore and aft by a bowden cable wrapped round a bolt through the roof! I think wings were starting to be used a bit at the time he put it on. it was probably 1968ish. Cheers Dave.

[Dave Silcock]

No NO Berts car was owned by some Sir ??? not Allisters Dave will explain shortly when he calms down!!!

Re Bert Govans Mk2, This car was sold by Archibalds when new to Sir Henry Wrigley the founder of Mt Cook Airlines. Bert bought it in 1979 as a mint un raced car. At that time it was only 12 years old an Bert has the orginal ownership papers. I started modifying it almost at once and have not stopped doing that for the last 30 years. It has not missed a years racing in that time which must be some sort of record.How would you anti replica bench racers sort that one out eh? Cheers dave.

[thunder427]

Hi Thunder, A bit wrong there about the employment .I served my time at Farrier Waimak, a local cartage and road building company under Jack Crowe who was Trevors father. He joined the firm a bit later and then both of us went out the Shell Garage that Jack and a relation had bought at Tempelton. I later worked for WJ Scotts on Mercedes Benz in the building used by the Press at the end New Regent St. The Rootes Group outfit were on the Manchester St corner and a young chap called Paul Kirk worked there so maybe thats where the mixup arose
Cheers Dave

Dave, fistly ,just great to have you on this forum,now, I must apologise for being presumptuous ( had to look that word up!!)regarding your alleged employment with A.R.Mackay,my Father was a 'usedcar salesman' ,both with Mackay and with W.J Scotts,used car div.ran the yard at Papanui,was involved in the early construction of Rahupuna Raceway,were 'famously Farrier Waimak trucks carted clay on one Election weekend (Another Story!!!)he was a member of the Canterbury Car Clup where for a number of years he organised the lap scoring/timming at the 'Lady Wigram' event.......I'm now wondering, as you do at moments like this ..'Was It Your Jag'?????, my recollection was that my father was at work ( A,Rs now maybe Scotts ) one Saturday mourning and came home at lunch time with this wonderful,sleek Jaguar roadster,I had a fixation on Jags which my Father had nurtured (we had a MK5 for a while )it has been my belief that this was your Jaguar,as I believed the owner to be 'Tall' and a Truck mechanic, which fits,I'm thinking this would have to be around 1960,I remember hoping somebody from school would see me in this 'Wow' car when I took the ride back to town that afternoon,alas nobody sprung me at my finest hour !!!!!.........My Fathers name was Lyndsay Johnson,(now deceased) had a yard on Ferry Road called 'Merlyn Motors' with Merv Ellis,later of Blackwalls ,as I said apologise for getting my 'Timeline' fuddled,but there is an answer here somewhere ....with regards thunder427/ Myles Johnson/Melb/ Aust:cool:

[AMCO72]

Dave....greetings from the NI. I have been having a 'chat' with a mutual friend of ours and he tells me you have fired up the new MKII, which had a few residents of the street reaching for their ear-plugs!! It sounds a very interesting machine, as it would be, coming from the Silcock stable. Could you perhaps enlighten the Jaguar fans on this thread about this car, and when we can expect to see it dueling with Bert Govan and Co on the racetracks of NZ. We would love to see both you and Bert up here sometime, and I'm sure that you will have no trouble with the hierachy in getting it on the track, in a suitable class. I for one would welcome you, and although the car has no history, yet, the driver/constructor most certainly has. We might even persuade the owner of a certain Coombs modified car to join us, thats if he can convince the MSNZ Doctor that he is fit and able to get behind the wheel of a race-car. I believe he has joined Les Mills to loose a bit of avoidupois!! He may need to partake of a couple of 'cheeky' wines when he reads this to settle his ulcer! Woops, there's the phone; bound to be 'you-know-who' ready to give me an earful !!!!!!!

[jim short]

Great stuff Amco But why or should that be WHY does the new old car that will be driven to and hopfully home on the road need any history or has enthusiast as we use to be ended .With just a few dickheads trying to push there stagnant idears what you can run.look close not one of them was at the sharp end. The sport originated with different cars and idears i.e. why cant this jag run with the muscle cars???Yes I know the ans but not good eneogh .and as to your thery? we all want to win 30yrs ago I remember Dave explanning why he did not drive an escortI just want to race a jaguar!! and by the way I am not having my hot meal at midday yet.!!
Your freind james {I am so upset i cant spell anymore}

[jim short]

Sorry the 30yrs stated above should read 42yrs.

[Rod Grimwood]

Never noticed you trying to win back then Gentleman Jim, always good to follow as you knew the "Shortest" way around.
Can not wait to see this Jaguar, if it is anything like Dave built before it will be a darling.

PS will catch up soon.

[AMCO72]

What do you mean Jim, that you 'can't spell anymore',!!!! You never could spell. Your wonderful secretary Steph used to fill in all the JDC forms for you!!!! But hey, who cares. You are a true enthusiast from way back, and remembers how things used to be. But I'm afraid we have moved on old son, and whether we like it or not, that's the way it is. Spilling the beans about how those old race-cars were built might end us up in court... and don't start Dave on that one.. By the way, regarding that midday meal, a portion the size of a closed fist is all that is allowed, otherwise all that sweating at Les Mills will be for nought.

[jim short]

Sorry Amco you will have to imagine my reply but sweating and court reminds me of the days gone by when I outplayed you on the sqaushcourt,winning there was important and Rod we had no hope with Algee and Hux but was great days, though cant remember if I turned my car around to see who was behind!!

[Dave Silcock]

Hi to all, I have been biting my bottom lip at some of the comments and opinions aired on this forum for some time, but can contain myself no longer. First of all I like to race cars not history, it makes no difference to me who last farted in the seat. It makes no difference to the way the car looks, sounds and more importantly what its like to drive. The second best car I have built after the present Mk2 was a Mk1 BDA Escort for Gray Mathias. We started with a 1300 stripped, sand blasted, replaced sills, front guards, welded on steel flares and fabricated the Watts linkage and trailing arms. Built a weld on front cross member with the rack and bottom arm mounts inside it like the Fahey car. We imported the proper AP alloy 4 piston calipers and 13 '' Minilight wheels and mounted F2 cross ply tyres just like in the day. We built a 1700 BDA with Lucas injection and F1 cams, the bonnet was flat black and it really looked and sounded the part. Now from some of your comments this car should not be allowed to race, at least it left a Ford factory somewhere unlike some of the cars that were built in the day from a body shell supplied new from Ford, no chassis number you know. You talk of almost seeing the ghosts of drivers past well if you do they are probably lost souls. The UK driver of Cooper Bristols that came here in the 80s with copy of the Wharton car had a real one at home but it was too valuable to race so built a copy of that too and left the real one tucked nice and cosy at home. I have it from someone that knows that the practise is common . If you have a multi million dollar race car and you can have an identical one built for multi hundred thousand dollars which one would you race. Google Dunford Jaguar and order up an FIA legal copy! If you saw Masten Gregory lurking round Leuch;s 341 SG Lister he was lost, the car was a total fake which Paul admitted to me whilst he was in his cups, truth serum some would say. I dont think
MSNZ should have any part in authenticating old racing cars, one day they will have the pants sued of them for authenticating a fake. To me a car is only a fake if someone claims it is something it is not. and if it used to sell the then it is fraud and illegal.

[markec]

Well said.

[AMCO72]

Yep, all makes sense, but Dave I don't know how to respond to that last post without enraging you more, but here goes. You say you like racing CARS not HISTORY. Well, no race car has a history, good or bad, until it is raced, including yours, even though you have a distinguished racing career here in NZ. Whether you like it or not, a car that has a history, especially a good history because it was successful, is worth something to most people; ie something worth having. Here I am thinking of cars that have passed through your hands...been built by you, modified by you, raced by you, are all worth something extra, simply because of your reputation, and who you are. FACT. I did say that your current project had no history YET, but this history, which you so dislike, will have started simply with the discussion on this forum. By your comments, you may not like that, although I can't see why not, and the MKII will continue to build it's history everytime it appears, and people in the know will take notice of it simply because of your association with it. At one point you say you are humbled by all the attention that your creations are getting, well, get used to it, as most people are happy when their efforts are recognised by others. As far as I know, no one on here has said you can't race the MKII in NZ, or that there isn't a class for it, but allowing MSNZ to decide that class is another matter. Dale Mathers has got a very successful class going with the HMC, and those that wish to race with his boys, abide by his rules, end of story. What I am trying to say here is that history is important, not to you maybe, but it is, and not only to the shysters who try to flog off cars as originals, when clearly they are not. But that's another topic altogether. Anyway, my original question to you was.....could you spare some of your valuable time and tell us a bit about this latest creation of yours......please! As to 341SG, there were always whispers about it's authenticity back in the late 80's when it was active. It had a very well patinated seat which fueled the originality claim. Then of course there was the dodgy warehouse fire where the car was stored, and partly or wholy destroyed, depending on who you believe........etc etc etc.

[stubuchanan]

Without wishing to add fuel to the flames, attached picture and story may amuse.
http://s6.postimage.org/lqkjtq0s1/Leuch_Lister_Fire.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

http://s6.postimage.org/7iuv52o35/Leuch_Fire_Story.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

I wonder if the Otahuhu CIB came to any conclusion about the fire.

Stu

[AMCO72]

Hey Stu, that's interesting. I raced at the Ardmore classic meeting in 1986 when this machine was also competing, so was not long afterwards that the 'unfortunate' fire took place.....may 87. I know there was a lot of talk about it at the time, but I didn't take a lot of notice. I wasn't very fond of Mr Leuch's driving style, which could best be described as 'cavalier'. !!!!!! I see there are some new/burnt Trimax mowers in the back-ground. I also see the the reporter said the cars were not insured, which seems very strange to me. I sure as hell would be insuring a Lister if I owned one; you never know when the 'bover boys' might pay you a visit!!!!!!! Dave, did you have any input into this car as one of your projects?

[jim short]

Hey oldtimer Ardmore classic was 1989

[David McKinney]

The 'destroyed' Connaught was sold to England shortly after the fire and rebuilt there. Apparently apart from the 'Dart' body it was pretty much all there. It was rebuilt with the streamliner bodywork that Paul sometimes used, and which wasn't damaged in the fire. The car hasn't raced since then, but it has recently changed hands and I'm told will return to the circuits (in the UK) this year

[AMCO72]

Hey, REAL oldtimer.......it must have been at Whenuapai then; but I thought the car he was driving at Whenuapai was the Aston Martin...DB5 I think. He did nearly take the control-tower out at one stage with a wild slide!!! God I hate being corrected by old fuddy-duddies. Yes, I have just looked it up....your right.....Whenuapai 86 TACCOC.....Ardmore 89 Shell Classic. Go back to your knitting!!!!

[Oldfart]

AMCO, pm sent

[AMCO72]

Oldfart, pm sent.

[RogerH]

Is this this Lister and Conaught man :

Paul Duncan Leuch Obituary
Published in The New Zealand Herald on October 29, 2011
LEUCH, Paul Duncan. On September 24, 2011 in Austria, aged 79 years. Loved father of Joanna Newbigin (Havelock North, Hawkes Bay), Andrea Vautier and Stephanie...

[AMCO72]

We have strayed away a bit on this thread, but I'm sure Dave wont mind as it is a subject close to his heart. The Lister that we have been talking about was to my eyes the most gorgeous car, and I would have given anything to own it. Now Dave says it was a complete fake. Dave, do you mean it's provenance was fake....ie the number plate..341SG. This number did have a good history [there's that word again] in the UK, so how come it ended up on Pauls car. It's probably a long story, and I'm sure someone here knows....David maybe? I remember there was a staged 'race' at Puke between it and a 'modern' Ferrari.....just the two of them howling around the course, trying to prove, I dont know what! Cant remember who won, was a close thing I think. The Lister made up yards on the back straight but wasn't so good in the corners especially over the hill. So with a straight 6 and a V12 together the sound was magic.

[Dave Silcock]

Well Amco I don't think you quite got the guts of what I meant. I am amazed at the importance attached to my efforts. By any standards they were some what less than successful. I haven't got a trophy cabinet because I have never won one . I have never won or even had a placing in any championship. I won my first race in AL 6246 but I think that was it. I had agreat season in AR325 at Pukekohe the first year I raced there, won every production sports car race I entered and ran the car on the prize money! Imagine that today. I never ever got much above 5th place in the Mk2 and if so only if some one DNF ed. So lets take those three cars and consider why I think their history and what they are today are not linked. The first XK ceased to be the car I raced wheen the Bains returned it to standard, it became another car entirely when Brian Middlemass owned it. He fitted a 3.8 litre MK10 motor gearbox and overdrive to. It mattered not that you have to cut the only decent cross member an XK chassis has got to fit the overdrive or that the throttle was connected directly to the carbs so when it was opened the engined to the right and opened it some more! What a bitch of a thing it was and still is the last time I drove it. AR325 was built out of a very badly repaired right off, when the modified production sports car class was canned I had a valueless car with a broken crank and a split bore. What to do? a plot was hatched to put the good bits into an XK120 FHC. I was part way through this when a sailor just out of the navy decided he wanted it . As the job wore on he wanted more bits that were on it as raced. In the end he got the 3.4 8 to1 compression motor out of the coupe the modified head Webers and manifolds. I retained the Konis disc brakes and close ratio gearbox which was ex G Hallens HWM. And another one for the history buffs I fitted the 3.8 motor from Frank Radisch's Humber Jag which had come out of a written off 150S. So what the sailor got was a dangerous piece of crap. He then proceeded to wrap it round a power pole so hard that the chassis broke the sump off! It was written off again of course, but no he bought back from the insurance and repaired it him self at Bob Fielders panel shop. Please be aware the chap was a radio operator. It is a great pity the damn thing was not put out of its misery right there. Last I heard it had a MK 5 chassis fitted to it (its what Jaguar modified to use any way) and is still being rebuilt. I ask the question why bother? Unless I rebuild it as only I would know how its not going to be worth a pinch of poop. Well all I have time for now customers arriving. I'll deal with the other car later and try to find time to fill you in on the NEW MK2. Suffice to say it is the most impressive and beautiful car I have ever built by a very large margin.

[AMCO72]

Thanks for all that Dave. Frankly I dont care what you won or didn't win, you managed to create a legend round yourself which has endured to this day, and whenever the name Jaguar pops up, it is your name that is invariably mentioned. And yes you are right, once a car has left your care, you cannot guarantee it's provenance. I believe you when you say that this latest project...[the last?] is the best by a long shot, and you wont care whether it wins races or not, it will be the joy of sitting behind the wheel and listening to that glorious howl. It has after all got 50 years of experience behind it so it better be good!! Looking forward to hearing more.

[jim short]

Hey replicar oldtimer I hate to be correct .but you seem to getting quite confused latley.but dont worry it will come write if you listen more,, Pauls Aston was a DB4 gt.A little story about Paul he had won some important hillclimb in Austria .had a badge on his Morgan.This day at puke we were having lunch sitting on the hill overlooking the club track when he asked me if I had the money what car would I have?Hell a D Type off course,or a Lister Or posibly a DB 4 GT .imagine my suprise when he turns up with these cars! To me of all the cars I have sat in Fosters D was made to suit me .the Lister was not anything like the D as with the windscreen rules in force.the screen was lowered down close to your knees . but in the D every thing was just great ,pedals gearlever .and to think it sat on Rileys yard for sale 1500 pounds, I bought a Buckler for 550 pounds on time payment at the same time..wages were around 12 pound a week a house was 1600 ,and Daves car is real good even if it goes bang{430bhp}unheard off a real car with Real muscle

[kiwi285]

Hi to all, I have been biting my bottom lip at some of the comments and opinions aired on this forum for some time, but can contain myself no longer. First of all I like to race cars not history, it makes no difference to me who last farted in the seat. It makes no difference to the way the car looks, sounds and more importantly what its like to drive. The second best car I have built after the present Mk2 was a Mk1 BDA Escort for Gray Mathias. We started with a 1300 stripped, sand blasted, replaced sills, front guards, welded on steel flares and fabricated the Watts linkage and trailing arms. Built a weld on front cross member with the rack and bottom arm mounts inside it like the Fahey car. We imported the proper AP alloy 4 piston calipers and 13 '' Minilight wheels and mounted F2 cross ply tyres just like in the day. We built a 1700 BDA with Lucas injection and F1 cams, the bonnet was flat black and it really looked and sounded the part. Now from some of your comments this car should not be allowed to race, at least it left a Ford factory somewhere unlike some of the cars that were built in the day from a body shell supplied new from Ford, no chassis number you know. You talk of almost seeing the ghosts of drivers past well if you do they are probably lost souls. The UK driver of Cooper Bristols that came here in the 80s with copy of the Wharton car had a real one at home but it was too valuable to race so built a copy of that too and left the real one tucked nice and cosy at home. I have it from someone that knows that the practise is common . If you have a multi million dollar race car and you can have an identical one built for multi hundred thousand dollars which one would you race. Google Dunford Jaguar and order up an FIA legal copy! If you saw Masten Gregory lurking round Leuch;s 341 SG Lister he was lost, the car was a total fake which Paul admitted to me whilst he was in his cups, truth serum some would say. I dont think
MSNZ should have any part in authenticating old racing cars, one day they will have the pants sued of them for authenticating a fake. To me a car is only a fake if someone claims it is something it is not. and if it used to sell the then it is fraud and illegal.

Talking about having copies built because of the value of the original, I believe that one of the specialist companies in NZ recently built a copy of the 250 GTO which was worth several million, because the owner of the original, now worth about 20 million, still wanted to race a 250 GTO. In the same vein I have been told just recently that Roger Wills has had a replica March 701 Cosworth built in the UK to race as the original Amon car was too valuable and he wanted it kept in its current state, patina and all.

[AMCO72]

Jim, you of all people should know that I am the best listener in the world. I am just getting a little confused.....so many years, so many cars. Of course the D type was made for SHORT-arsed poms.....no adjustment anywhere. Give me a C type any day. DB4, DB5, they both looked pretty similar to my untrained eye, and I have never been an Aston fan....funny, me that is. No more long telephone calls from you please, I can't take all that you are saying in anymore. Do you think Lofty would have approved of Dave's 430 hp.....200mph down the Mulsanne straight, before those stupid chicanes were installed. Listening to videos of cars going down there in the old days was spine tingling. It sounds as if that obituary that RogerH mentioned, is of the Mr Leuch, if your info on an Austrian hillclimb is correct, which I sincerely hope it is....we dont want another 'OK Corral' episode here.

[jim short]

Gee Amco can you delete that last phone call please?? {bad sport}

[Dave Silcock]

Hi Roger, yes that was the PD Leuch we learned to know and love. He was born in England ,his father was a German Swiss the poms brought over before the war because he had invented multi coloured copying when previously one could only do blue prints. They realised that they were going to need a lot of maps. His mother was a Duncan from the East coast or the North Island. He was sent to Germany for some of his schooling and was fluent German and had working vocab in some others. Hench his return to Europe when his health began to fade. Now I have got so many threads to reply to I dont know where to go next

[David McKinney]

Perhaps I could help with the story of the Lister. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a fake, but it wasn't the Masten Gregory Spa winner, as claimed. That was the Ecurie Ecosse car, BL104, reg 341SG, and was written off at the British GP meeting in July 1958

The same year Ecosse ran the 'Monzanapolis' single-seater, BHL109. This was rebuilt as a sportscar, reg RSF301, and run by the team in early 1959 races until May when, what do you know, Gregory wrote it off at Silverstone

As a replacement the team used the undamaged from frame from BHL104 and the undamaged rear of BHL109 to build another sportscar, which was raced for the rest of the year. It was then sold to Phil Scragg, who ran it with modified Monzanapolis body and cycle-type guards, and was unbeatable in the sportscar class of British hillclimbs (reg KTU254)

It then passed through various hands until the 'historic racing' era, when Gordon Chapman restored it to Monzanapolis single-seater form, using a new chassis, and raced it from 1978. This car is currently campaigned by Rod Jolley

The old BHL104/109 chassis was subsequently used by John Pearson to "rebuild" the 1958 Spa winner, 341SG, which is the car Paul Leuch raced. I believe it's now back with the Pearsons in the UK

[Dave Silcock]

So here's the next bit, the Mk2 of Metropolitan Cranes. Once again it was built out of an insurance company write off. My 120 FHC was robbed of the 150S straight port head, manifolds and carbs and the CR gear box. Spears made up a set of 10.5 comp pistons and Ken Lawrence on the same premises ground up some hot cams for it. And thats the total engine mods, standard crank rods and valves. As I have said elsewhere it was not my favorite car by any means. After Millen bought it,it was painted maroon after being fitted with MK1 escort flares and wider American racing wheels. He then proceeded to over rev it and tossed a rod and in typical Millen style did not take the trouble to fix it properly and bunged in a stock 8:1 short block. He could not believe how much power that cost him. I don't remember it ever going back to blue, but by that time it was a sad old racer and I had lost interest in it. It passed through a few owners { Classic Driver has a full list} and ended up with Clive Gott who turned it into a sports sedan, moved the engine back, fiber glass one piece front section, you know the sort of thing. By this time anyone still referring to it as the car I raced would have to be in cloud cuckoo land! Now the modern part ,the present owner crushed what was left of it ,had a mate down here purchase a nice clean 2.4 body shell, engaged Mike O' Neil of Wire Wheel Services to do the panel and paint, and myself to do the mechanical work. Clive had retained the motor and gearbox for his Lister project so I sold M John a motor I had built for myself, built new inlet manifolds and a CR Moss box. The brakes were off a 420 saloon with Falcon vented discs. It went to Auckland for Les Parkinson to complete. At this point it was probably a schedule K car, later I was informed by the owner that it had been fitted with a Toyota 5 speed and Willwood calipers and rotors. It is now A T&C car is it not. Which makes it no different from my disgustingly new car or the one I have just built for Mike Laney. Amco you say things have changed, they have not, K is still K and T&C is still T&C. The last time I had a competition licence was in 93 and the regs in that year book are the same as this years. It is not up to MSNZ to decide where my car can run it is a T&C legal car

[Dave Silcock]

Hi David interesting thought on the so called 341SG thing. It is my understanding that Paul bought the car from John Harper not John Pearson. It was certainly Harper we visited at his Blockley premises in regard to another dodgy Lister, the Costin bodied one we tried to campaign in Europe. When I repaired the 341 SG thing the only part I could find that could have come from a Lister were some parts of the left front corner which had a different style of welding and BSF bolts while the rest of the car was UNF.

[AMCO72]

Dave.....I should have known better than to try and tell you what's what in NZ motoracing. Please accept my sincere apologies, and best wishes for a successful debut with the 'new' MKII. I hope I can see and hear it running one day.

Regards Gerald.

[David McKinney]

It is my understanding that Paul bought the car from John Harper not John Pearson
Harper and Pearson were in cahoots with a lot of the Listers that "appeared" in the 1970s

I'd forgotten about the Costin car - that too has a Pearson history

[stubuchanan]

Hi Roger, yes that was the PD Leuch we learned to know and love. He was born in England ,his father was a German Swiss the poms brought over before the war because he had invented multi coloured copying when previously one could only do blue prints. They realised that they were going to need a lot of maps. His mother was a Duncan from the East coast or the North Island. He was sent to Germany for some of his schooling and was fluent German and had working vocab in some others. Hench his return to Europe when his health began to fade. Now I have got so many threads to reply to I dont know where to go next

Strange coincidence. While pursuing another "nostalgia" interest of mine today, reading a recent book about Otiwhiti Station, up the Turakina Valley in Rangitikei, run by people named Duncan, I came across a picture of a memorial to a Kate Leuch-Duncan - PD's mother. Also wedding photo of her and Werner Leuch on the homestead lawn. One of those annoying books that doesn't have an index so I'll have to read carefully to see if the wayward son rates a mention.

Stu

[AMCO72]

Continuing the Paul Leuch theme on this, the Dave Silcock Jaguar thread. If you look at page 59, of the october 2011 issue of 'Classic and Sports Car' you will see a full page ad for 'Autoglym', a product that JD Classics obviously use on their cars. Behind the LeMans Jaguar you can catch a glimpse of 341SG....the ex Masten Gregory/Paul Leuch car, or a reconstruction/restoration/replica of that car. Mmmmm....has had a chequered history, thats for sure. Was bloody gorgeous, and I would have it in a flash....to hell with the history, and I wouldn't have any competition from my old mate Jim, because he cant fit into it...LoL....

[Dave Silcock]

Continuing the Paul Leuch theme on this, the Dave Silcock Jaguar thread. If you look at page 59, of the october 2011 issue of 'Classic and Sports Car' you will see a full page ad for 'Autoglym', a product that JD Classics obviously use on their cars. Behind the LeMans Jaguar you can catch a glimpse of 341SG....the ex Masten Gregory/Paul Leuch car, or a reconstruction/restoration/replica of that car. Mmmmm....has had a chequered history, thats for sure. Was bloody gorgeous, and I would have it in a flash....to hell with the history, and I wouldn't have any competition from my old mate Jim, because he cant fit into it...LoL....

Im with you on that one Amco, absolutely gorgeous and what a buzz to drive! It was also very fast,
at one stage at the Whittakers Manfield meeting it was the fastest car of the day late Porsches, and whatever not withstanding. I was staying with the Leuchs when the cars were burnt and PD near killed us both on trip to the factory in his Range Rover. He burst into the factory in spite of the brigade warning him not to. The damage was horrific, a DB4 GT cylinder head was also lost, it was fortunate that the body and one wheel were stored elsewhere. Both cars were shipped to me for rebuilding the prioitry being the Lister. We had to make new wheels as Lynx were not making anmore for six months. In the end we rebuilt it in six months but the Connaught was a different beast and the magnesium final drive was no more. It was sold back to Harper for him to repair. Which is why I was left with two sets of Dunlop knock on peg drive wheels. Needless to say they are now on my Mk 2 which I have sent Steve some phots of to post on here as you are so keen to see it I'm flattered.

[Dave Silcock]

Strange coincidence. While pursuing another "nostalgia" interest of mine today, reading a recent book about Otiwhiti Station, up the Turakina Valley in Rangitikei, run by people named Duncan, I came across a picture of a memorial to a Kate Leuch-Duncan - PD's mother. Also wedding photo of her and Werner Leuch on the homestead lawn. One of those annoying books that doesn't have an index so I'll have to read carefully to see if the wayward son rates a mention.

Stu

Thats really interesting Stu, PD always told me that his father in law only bought land with trees on it as he reckoned if it would grow trees it would grow anything. In true pioneering fashion he then cut them down and grew grass. He always refered to his father as Walter prhaps an Anglicised version of Werner. He had tales of he and his mother flying across the Pacific in the flying boats and stopping each night at a smart hotels on thier trips home to NZ.

[AMCO72]

Dave, when you look at the picture of the remains of the car after the fire, it is surprising that the tappet covers etc survived the heat, though you cant see the other side where the webers would have been to see what was left of them. What do you do with a chassis like that after it has been 'cooked'.

[AMCO72]

Go and stand in the corner Amco.......CAM covers please!!!!!!!

[Dave Silcock]

Strange coincidence. While pursuing another "nostalgia" interest of mine today, reading a recent book about Otiwhiti Station, up the Turakina Valley in Rangitikei, run by people named Duncan, I came across a picture of a memorial to a Kate Leuch-Duncan - PD's mother. Also wedding photo of her and Werner Leuch on the homestead lawn. One of those annoying books that doesn't have an index so I'll have to read carefully to see if the wayward son rates a mention.

Stu

Hey Stu I just remembered that PD some times paid me from the Mangpapa Land Co account. This farm was still owned by his mother who resided in Switzerland,although PD said he had 2% holding in it. It was accessed from Taihape and must have quite large as at one stage he did not have the use of the EFI truck which could take 2 cars and was an artic as it was carting wool to Wanganui all week!

[Dave Silcock]

Dave, when you look at the picture of the remains of the car after the fire, it is surprising that the tappet covers etc survived the heat, though you cant see the other side where the webers would have been to see what was left of them. What do you do with a chassis like that after it has been 'cooked'.

The heat generated was quite strange, the wheels melted because of the tyres, the Webers did not melt but only one was useable, ended up on my sons Mini Cooper[ Rep of course]. On the Connaught the heat from the spark plug wires melted the cam cover and the front bearing cap. That head is now on M Johns MK2. The Chassis is only mild steel so pretty hard to stuff up as was proved when PD tipped it end for end at the last, or one of the last Bay Park meetings without damage to the structure. I was quite pleased as it landed entirely one one of our new wheels and we could not detect any run out. So then myself and Auto Restorations had to rebuild it allover again.

[AMCO72]

It's becoming clear that the Lister story quite rightly belongs in this thread....'The Dave Silcock Jaguars', as you seem to have had a hand in it's rebuilding a number of times. I described Paul Leuch's driving style earlier as 'cavalier', not being unkind. He was a bit like a continental playboy with tons of money that he could willy-nilly throw at cars in the event of an 'accident', that happened after some rather over zealous driving. You obviously knew him as well as anyone here in NZ, but he came across to the rest of us as a rather arrogant chap, maybe because of his breeding. You on the other hand says he was the Paul that we grew to know and love, so clearly he was a complex character. I would have killed him for that car!!!!

[jim short]

Hi Dave when can we see a photo of blue thunder???

[Dave Silcock]

Hi Dave when can we see a photo of blue thunder???

I'm afraid posting photos on here has defeated me, can anyone over 60 do it?

[Dave Silcock]

It's becoming clear that the Lister story quite rightly belongs in this thread....'The Dave Silcock Jaguars', as you seem to have had a hand in it's rebuilding a number of times. I described Paul Leuch's driving style earlier as 'cavalier', not being unkind. He was a bit like a continental playboy with tons of money that he could willy-nilly throw at cars in the event of an 'accident', that happened after some rather over zealous driving. You obviously knew him as well as anyone here in NZ, but he came across to the rest of us as a rather arrogant chap, maybe because of his breeding. You on the other hand says he was the Paul that we grew to know and love, so clearly he was a complex character. I would have killed him for that car!!!!

I'm afraid to say the love bit was sarcasm although he could be very charming. I had two trips to UK and Europe with him. He went first class and I had to pay to up grade myself to business so he did not feel guilty, but I declined the third trip enough was enough.

[AMCO72]

Sure-as-hell not me mate, and I am over 70. I did manage to get a picture of FF52, the last 3.8 to be imported to NZ, on here but it took about 5 hours one night when I had nothing better to do. I'm afraid us old fellas, bought up with pencils and paper, just seem to get into a panic when asked to do these things, but there are some smart-alecy 'oldish' guys that seem to manage it. Maybe they get their 4 year old grandchildren to help!! Frankly, the computer does NOT talk my language.

[Dave Silcock]

Was that the car imported by Harvey Hingston, I serviced it once when at Shorters in Auckland. No OD high ratio diff great car.

[AMCO72]

Thats the one Dave. One of those cars I should never have sold. Harvey specified no O/D. Apparently he distrusted o/d....dont know why. Harvey as you know was HM at Opunaki school and the word is that he used to get the kids to clean the wires as a detention punishment!!!! I bought the car in Oct 74 and sold in Nov 76......too many speeding tickets was my excuse. Sold it to Jerry Clayton for $5,250.....gave the bloody thing away. It went through a number of owners, along the way getting an E type steering wheel, and the present owner Grant Baker has/or is going to instal an O/D. Dont know whether he will retain the high diff. The Shorter boys had it for a while, or David did. Put that terrible white number plate on....67 Jag. It wasn't a bloody 67, it was a 66....he should have known better. I had a scrap with Tony Shelly, who claimed he had the last MKII. After some discussion I pointed out that my car was registered on the 31st of december 1966.....couldn't get much later than that. Harvey had specially ordered the car back in september of that year with the features he wanted. I didnt know you could do that sort of thing. It still has its original paint according to Grant. It had done 75,000 miles when I sold it. As you say GREAT car......Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
ps. Have you found the pic of it on the forum.....might see if I can post it. Or send me your email and I'll foward it.

[AMCO72]

Dave, check out, 'Yards and Yarns'....page 18....post 344. 'The Black Cat'. God isn't she gorgeous!!!!!

[AMCO72]

More on the MKII........I said once that I had got more speeding tickets in that car than in ALL the rest put together. The damm cops used to see me coming and give chase. Bloody hell, I was only doing 70'ish!!!! Once when one off these insects was demanding some information from me, I got a bit fresh, and suggested that he climb in behind the wheel and see if HE could keep it below 70. I dont think it did me any good at all, and he probably added a few mph on the bluey he was writing!! The car was my everyday transport back then; towed the caravan to the beach, and collected trailer-loads of fence posts for the farm. She was no pampered primadona kept warm and dry under a dust sheet. I purchased her from John Martin Motors in Hamilton.....John was a keen JDC man, and the chap that traded it at Johns' was a Mr Vincent, who lived in River Road. Paul Tavan was one of the owners after me...one of quite a few in Auckland. Dont know what the present owner paid, but $70,000 plus.......Another NZ Jaguar you have had a hand in, and I'm going to ask you about my 120 shortly as I'm sure you know about it.

[AMCO72]

Dave, just as a starter on the 120, if you havent already done so check out.....Yards and Yarns....page 5...post 92....the story of the 8 mile chase. And in the meantime get your brain cells going on a chap in ChCh by the name of Penny....maybe Dave/John..cant remember his name....maybe a bit of a dodgy character......maybe a mechanic. It concerns the 120.

[Dave Silcock]

My e mail is dsilcock@clear.net.nz. I got the shot of ff52 off here ok. Harvey had a 150 that the overdrive on failed, so he would not have another. Far better car that way the high ratio diff made first gear a lot more usable , madness to change it. Send me your email address and I'll send some photos of the new car. I have heard of this Dave Penny I think he was ex Archibalds mechanic and from memory was involved with some dodgy business with the Ransleys when I worked there and yes he did own an xk120 and later may be an E type

[AMCO72]

Dave, thanks for that. Will be really interested to see the MKII. Yes Penny was an ex Archibald mechanic, and I heard he was up to no good, but dont know the details. Will tell you more shortly.......my address......bentley6@xtra.co.nz

[AMCO72]

Now, the XK120C DHC.... was Sherwood green with Suede green interior, mohair lined hood and all original when I owned it. Had a fully louvered bonnet top, which was a pain in the arse when you parked the car in the rain, as the plugs got soaking wet ,and a can of CRC was an essential part of the kit. The car was imported by Ron Barrow....you may know him too....he was a good customer of Archibalds. My Dad owned a '58 MKI 2.4 that Ron had owned. Think it was the first 2.4 that Archibalds sold....I liked it, was a sweet little motor car....not much get up and go but nice to cruize around in. Ron tried his hand at racing the XK at Wigram, but he was so shocked at the tyre wear that he retired virtually on the spot. I purchased the car in 1963 from Des Wild for 625 pounds!!! And the bloke who sold it to Des was the infamous Mr Penny. I had dealings with Mr Penny because the rear springs on the car had sagged and needed resetting, so on Des' advice took it back to Penny to do the job.....which he did. Was only afterwards that I heard he was on the make somewhere, but I think it was to do with footy not cars!!! could be wrong. The engine was C type modified...2in sand-cast carbs etc. and ran very well. It didn't however have the usual cam cover with 'Jaguar C type' on it so don't know what the story was there......maybe a Dave Penny mod. I did all my girl-chasing in that car, and when I eventually got married in 1966 my wife Judith was not very comfortable driving it to the shops, so it had to go. Bought a Morris 1100!!!!! I had a devil of a job getting a buyer for it, and eventually sold it for 500 pounds to some turkey who proceeded to wreck it by pulling it to pieces. Needless to say he gave up and a new owner put it back together....minus all the good bits, and sold it to a guy in Perth. This same Perth resident many years later bought my SSI tourer from me, and I have a photo of both cars on his front lawn.......small world. I mention all this because I'm sure that you with your ear to the ground regarding XK's may have come across it at some stage....a long shot but you never know.

[AMCO72]

And thanks for the photo of the MKII. Unfortunately I cannot pick it up in that form on my machine. Is it possible to send it another way....jpg I think it is. I'm bloody hopeless on the computer, thats why I don't/can't post pictures.

[rogered]

500 quid!!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh for so
me hinesite
would have looked the part towing the mini, if you had kept it:(

[David McKinney]

I'm afraid posting photos on here has defeated me, can anyone over 60 do it?
Yes:)

[Steve Holmes]

Dave, I hope you don't mind me posting these up for you? I see you're struggling with posting pics. Will do the first four pics, let me know if you're happy for me to post the rest? This car is a work of art, and certainly deserves to be enjoyed by all on here.

6941

6938

6939

6940

[AMCO72]

Rogered, you have to remember that these things were just worn-out, old, troublesome, oil-dripping, English sports cars and no one wanted them. The situation with my car was the same as the Jaguar D type that Jim Short used to see on a car yard in Auckland, sitting out in the weather, with a price tag of 1500 quid....and it sat and sat!!!!! It almost beggars belief nowdays, but that is how it was. My XK was only 10 years old when I had it, and still in very nice order, and in the 3 years I owned it hardly spent a penny on it, other than a set of tyres and some spark-plugs. [tyres from Wally Darrell no less]. Was used as an everyday car, and I could park it in the street and know it would be there when I got back. Imagine that today; the likely-lads would have sliced open the top with a box cutter and driven off into the sunset. I have to say that it's performance was pretty average compared to today.....we used to say they pulled like a train, meaning the acceleration was hardly neck-snapping, but compared to what was around at the time was pretty damm good. Mostly it was that glorious exhaust note that was so captivating, and if you had managed to fabricate a pipe that exited out by the passenger door, that was something else!!! Did some long fast trips in the old girl, and even though it's thirst for Super petrol tested the wallet a bit, we didnt realise how cheap in fact fuel was. I agree with your statement when you say it would have looked good towing the Mini......now that would have been a very sharp equip.

[Dave Silcock]

Thanks Steve, yes post the rest of them I would like people to see how I think a classic car should be presented, pity about the rollcage buggared a good car.

[Steve Holmes]

Here you go folks, enjoy! Congratulations Dave, this is a stunning car!

6949

6950

6948

[Steve Holmes]

6952

6953

6951

[Steve Holmes]

Last ones. Thanks for sharing these Dave.

6955

6956

6954

[Oldfart]

Wow, certainly brings back memories of how I felt when I saw the old cars, same reaction!

[AMCO72]

Dave, just a couple of questions. The webers on an angle.... have never seen that before....usually level. Did you have to modify the float chambers at all, or did they work ok as is. The other comment/question......those gorgeous instruments....rev/mph.....are they the original ones refaced and turned......There is some very nice detail in the whole car....is a credit to you. Mind you I didnt expect any less from you, as I said if you can't get it right after 50 years, well your a slow learner!!!!

[Rod Grimwood]

Another beautiful car Dave, as said before, I new what was coming as your standards are the highest. I will forward these photos to Lyall Martin if that is alright with you along with your email. Lyall would love to catch up. He is still pointing a spray gun occasionally on classics.

[Dave Silcock]

The Weber thing is a bit unusual I have to admit, when I worked for the Ransleys they were the agents for them and had a general sort of manual on them which stated that they could be mounted a certain number of degrees in any direction. Trouble is can't remember what the angle was but do remember it was a lot. This car was designed to run Lucas timed injection but switched to Webers to try and save time, which it did not, so the angle was something I was stuck with. I had to forget setting the float level buy the book and do it with a dip stick and reference to a set mounted level. The speedo /tacho were made here buy Parrots from a photo of the real thing I down loaded from E bay!

[Dave Silcock]

Yeah Rod that would be fine,thanks for your complements Glad to here Lyall is still creating his magic. He painted my 120 FHC the MK2 and my 3.8 E roadster. I even flew him down to Ch CH to paint out some accident damage on the E. Man he is good!

[Dave Silcock]

I think I can remember seeing and admiring that car but no more. Terry Mc Grath's book will have it in it I am sure.

[Rod Grimwood]

Dave, a couple of shots of Lyall and another bit of magic he did about 5 years back. As you can see he still looks reasonably as he did back then and his skill is the same. Know this is not Jag but Lyall thinks he may have some photos of your cars and he having a look. PS i did a "bit" of rubbing on the 120 along with Robin and Lyall down at Archers Rd way back then. That was a beautiful car when finished, one of my favorites.

[Dave Silcock]

Your right Rod the old bugger looks good, dose he not , when I come up to race the blue car we will have to have a reunion would 'nt that be a hoot?

[Rod Grimwood]

Yea, be great to catch up after all these years. Lyall is keen to come out. will keep intouch with you.

[AMCO72]

Dave, you say....'when I come UP to race the blue car'. Are you planning to attend the Denny Hulme festival in January 13? Am really looking forward to seeing and hearing it. Are you going to keep calling it the 'blue car', or perhaps you will dream up some exotic name for it!!

[jim short]

You can bet it will never be the Millen car as the other one is now called!!

[Dave Silcock]

Dave, you say....'when I come UP to race the blue car'. Are you planning to attend the Denny Hulme festival in January 13? Am really looking forward to seeing and hearing it. Are you going to keep calling it the 'blue car', or perhaps you will dream up some exotic name for it!!

Yes Gerald I am planning to do the NI starting at Manfield in Nov and move on up.I am only about what I enjoy, and Manfield is my favorite track followed by Pukekohe. I have ridden around HD courtesy of some ones video on U tube and I'm sure I'll like that as well. You have to under stand that the cylinder head on this car, is the cars only reason for being, and is very experimental. Reliability is not a given till tested . If you and Jim play your cards right you may get a drive in it, I have no problem with your age, I'm in my 70th year myself.,and still doing the mechanic thing 40 hours a week. And I think it will always be the blue car, now I'd better go and see why we have water in No 1 cylinder our you won't get to drive it.

[AMCO72]

Woops, dont like the sound of that Dave. That head you have designed and constructed is certainly rather special, but as you say reliability is what is needed now. As you know Angus has built this very exotic, well exotic for a Mini, engine incorporating the original Arden 8 port head that was on the car in 1972. He and Lyn Rogers have spent countless hours welding, fixing,machining, etc etc etc, and here we are dealing with old alloy, which is a problem in itself. The engine, like yours is now putting out DOUBLE it's original horse-power, and with a 13:1+ compression ratio, she is stressed to within an inch of it's life. These things take time and some testing, and I hope you can get a few hours on the track to sort things out. Meantime I might attend some gym classes to get myself fit and able to get behind the wheel!!!!! And Jim, no more cheeky wines for you.

[jim short]

Gee Amco after reading about shaky leg ect.I never would have guessed.I think you would enjoy a larger car with pow. steer. I mean 130mph in a little front drive brick cant be easy,perhaps if you had a trailor on the back its not that hard to do I beleive.As to the wine used to be a ladies drink once. then in the early 80s I had my E Type down at the country gents wigram and met a real hard case friend of Daves refusing to let some yuppy trying to enter his Lambo? after entries had closed but its a Lambo he said over and over I dont give a f///k you cant run!!.Wow hes my sort of chap old mate.He was a conersure conersure? real man and he drank wine even gave a book on the stuff to Dave who in turn passed on to me.and my leg doesent shake anymore.plus the Italians drank it during pit stpsin the 50s. as to your eyes I had that with one eye the left one at bay park only in the porsche .man that thing was quick and the cure was in the end was to block of half the visor so that eye could not see .never had any more trouble

[Rod Grimwood]

The right one was too busy looking in the mirror Jim. Lucky you were just quicker than us or you would have been looking out the front with tears in them.

[jim short]

Gee Rod I forgot about that those Escort did fume a lot when driven hard

[Rod Grimwood]

Now having re-read your bit about the left eye at Bay Park, this was in a left hand drive car on a left hand corner track (except one) and you had the left half of visor blocked out. I always thought "christ Jim's blocking again and got some strange lines driving around the middle of the turns" but it was all part of the plan Jim. Always the crafty one ah.
My poor old girl never got to fume Jim, it was either up there or only one cough and reasonable puff and then the dreaded noise around your feet.

[jim short]

You know Rod I think the laughs I get of here there might somrthing wrong with me. but apart from the bulls//t I had 5good yrs in that class .Bay park thanks to the vidio its still there.I pity these ST no fun unless they hit each other.and here we are nealy 30yrs. later still enjoying it.looks like I will be in the red Juno next yr.!!!??

[jim short]

Sorry meant to mention when my eyes and tears that was from the fumes??

[AMCO72]

Jim, I always knew you were 'one-eyed', but if we dont get focused again on the subject of this thread...Dave and his Jags, things will all turn to custard, and we wont get that drive which you and I so desire.

[jim short]

hey dont include me in your desires

[Rod Grimwood]

Yea sorry to diverse maybe 'yards and yarns"

Back to Jaguars

Now here is one for you Jaguar boy's to work out. This photo was in a collection given to me by Robin Irving and he said it was along time ago and he can only remember it came from a family (he thinks name Foster) had an engineering business in South Auckland. Apparently it is the car that Angus Hyslop raced (then white) and the family had it for ages stored away. Robin thinks it went to Southerby's and was sold.
You guy's will know more.

[AMCO72]

Boys, I think, in fact I know, that Jim from Tok will be able to give you 'chapter and verse' on that car, and yes it did go back to the UK.

[Oldfart]

This looks very like the car that was in my parents gagage for the day at the Matamata street event.
A guy was driving up and down our street looking for a place to park. I went and asked what the issue was, and he said he wanted somewhere safe, so NATURALLY I offered the garage, and was accepted! We then walked the couple of hundred yards to the circuit, I had showed him where the key was and when I got home he (with the car) was gone. It would have been polite of him to have left it I think. :)

[AMCO72]

The information on this car, the D type, can be found on page 2....State of NZ Motorsport...post 35. What Jim failed to tell you is that the car sat on John Riley's yard for some time with a price tag of 1500 pounds....$3,000!!!!! No one wanted it. Because it was an early short-nose example, with a very original body, almost a barn find, it was keenly sought after in the UK. Might even get $5,000,000 for it today. Hind-sight is a wonderful thing.

[jim short]

Sorry Amco 3 mistakes there 1st a couple of weeks back I wrote about the car been 1500 pounds{you replyed made for SHORT asse people} 2nd no one wanted it are you jokeing 3rd basket case hardley all he did take it back to original!! white I politly asked him why he didnt go back one more coat to blue ???but what would a Kiwi know?/ so no ans. Now why did you ask me to explain when you appear to know more than I

[AMCO72]

Jim, answers. [1] You did write about it, but we are all a bit forgetful on this site,especially me.
[2] YOU wanted it, but couldn't afford it. Almost 1/2 the price of a new house.
[3] It was a sort of barn find in that it hadn't been mucked around with.
[4] Jim, when it comes to Jaguars, I have to bow to your superior knowledge.
And, do you remember when we competed against it in a gymkhana, at a supermarket carpark back in 1970?

[AMCO72]

Or was 1968? You will have it in your little black book somewhere. I wonder if Dave ever had anything to do with the car.....like the engine swap, for instance.

[jim short]

Yes ran like a dog not meant for that sort of thing and living alone and comenting on here is taking it out of ..having dave burn my ears about manz hell iam not happy with what goes on But its like changing the goverment, and not picking on anyone but over the yrs.some things are hard to come to turns with and I dont wish to start only yesterday my son was up at 4am travel back from Taupo as Juno given an entry into sportscar race pick it up mt wellington. back to Taupo really wanted to seeif problem gone.Then problem if he starts 2 cars will go home as dont want to run against it!! it turned out ok but who needs it, like my Spyder 22yrs ago Alan Dick arranged an entry to sfos Timaru Queenstown and Dunedin. we drove down raced then drove home ,went back 8times over the next ten yrs allways invited and looked after recieved a lovelly trophy peoples choice along side a rare 2z2 Alfa and so on i decided to give tacoc another try with this nz built car entry accepted race 1 over then please report to stan What car is this ,He had no hell whats the word,I did tell him I had papers from FIa I think that Allan Currie had arranged that let me run anywhere in the world!!tacoc no thank you. Then the Paton cant run in the realays car has no doors this put all the Lotus out as well and so {we all ran but with some people it does not pay to win}Yesterday I loved watching and listening to ex Le Mans RSR run at Manfield I sat on the seats beside the dummygrid and admired all the muscle cars the noise the smell I am not all that interested in the rules .imagine fronting bup with the LYCOMING TODAY for the first time or a 34b coupe with a v8 in it.. I might have a rum now

[AMCO72]

Well, I'm glad you have got all that off your chest Jim. You deserve a rum, or two, just to recuperate. Yes I remember the D type being not very suitable for a gymkhana.....an in-or-out clutch. What isnt appreciated today is how SMALL they were....about as big as an old Mini.....with 265hp......Whew...... Bloody hell, Daves 'Blue Car' with 400+ should be able to go like stink, even though it is a wee bit heavier than a D type!! Found the problem with the water in No1 yet Dave?

[Dave Silcock]

Yes Gerald, small hole in the inlet port, epoxy putty is doing the trick, fingers crossed. Looks like your drive is safe as our contributing MSNZ VP has almost assured us that no one will be stopped racing on the basis of roll cage Homolagation. And as the Tui ads say Yeah right. Im still waiting.

[jim short]

Hi back on Jaguars received a photo of Daves jag after Millen had put his touches to it .sadly I cant come to grips with loading photos on here .I can still drive a 190 with 2 gearboxs though{I wonder how many know whats involved} 18gears in all .Hopfully Steve can put his copy on for us. then we can sit around and compare with the MILLEN CAR {sorry dont mean to use big letters but somhow my left hand feels left out}we can compare it with the Millen car that has been running the last 2 years. the only thing I.. and remember I am old IS the number 100

[markec]

I gave the drivers seat of the blue car a rub for you today Gerald, I'm thinking you might need a cushion.

[jim short]

Possibly a leg brace as well the way it revs a shakey right leg !!! could be like Jan and I had a ride at Philip Is. 3yrs back in with Bob Jane in his 4.1 jag..He was 80yrs.old that yr. didnt think he would make 82 but hes still going he had just put a restraining order on his wife after a kitchen knife attack.His Pastor friend sat in the front with him while we squeezed in amongst the rollbar.Along with Norm Beechy in his Chev Imparla with 6 passengers who payed $500 for the one lap we started side by side ,then Beechy was gone Bob was rather timid but bloody brave to even try ,but 2nd gear it was just coming on to the cam and sounding real good but scarey thankfully he lifted off sad that it was ,downhill turning right the two in the front were both trying to engage 2nd gear with the whole convoy behind ,at the end he parked it on the road and his helper parked back on display,ever since watching it at Puke 1964? I loved that car and am real proud to have had a ride in it slow as it was thank you Bob

[jim short]

Hi ,just heard what was thought to be another earthquake in Christchurch, the roar and ground tremble.A blue flash and it was gone,turned out to be some hoon in what looked like in the moment it took to pass ,a MK 2 Jaguar!!!

[AMCO72]

Jim, yesterday I said you could have 2 rums, NOT the whole damn bottle!!!!!!!

[Dave Silcock]

But he's right Amco it was the blue car, how are those sessions at the gym going? keep them up because its far more powerful than I'd have thought possible.

[Steve Holmes]

Motorman article many of you will be familiar with.

7251

[Steve Holmes]

7252

[Dave Silcock]

Thats really interesting Stu, PD always told me that his father in law only bought land with trees on it as he reckoned if it would grow trees it would grow anything. In true pioneering fashion he then cut them down and grew grass. He always refered to his father as Walter prhaps an Anglicised version of Werner. He had tales of he and his mother flying across the Pacific in the flying boats and stopping each night at a smart hotels on thier trips home to NZ.

Hey Stu I'm not sure if this is the place to post this but some time ago you posted a photo of my MK2 on the spectator banking at Bay Park. The reason for this indiscretion was that I had a very good start and was right there on the first lap , Paul Fahey got a bit wide on the exit to the start finish straight and knocked a bit of wood off the fence. This I tried to avoid and got into a bit of a slide. now real blokes don't back off in these circumstances, especially when your only 27 years old. So I ended up on the spectator bank, but worse was to come as my Mother was on same banking and even as you shot the picture was descending the stand with her skirt hoisted round her knees crying out'' thats my boy'' now you can see why I was in such a huury to leave the scene. I will also add that my Wife has also chosen to use that shot as the screen saver on my part of her computer , thanks mate

[markec]

8076

One of his early cars,an Ansaldo 6AN 1923,

[jim short]

Come on Steve show us the Millen car so we can kick start this site please

[BMCBOY]

Here's a few photos for you to look at from the past Jim871087118712871387148715

[BMCBOY]

871687178718871987208721

[AMCO72]

OK Jim.....go for it. Twelve pics, I bet you can't get them all right. I will pick up on your mistakes!!!!!!

[jim short]

Amco just back from Rorstan Bob Whakatane.check lost cars ..Now the 1st one C pos Tutons Archibald then Fosters D... Parkys 140the paptoe twins both gone not sure where?/ L Taylor 120 and John karnon Hey I only count 6

[AMCO72]

Not bad Jim, but you will have to go over to the end of the previous page for the rest.

[AMCO72]

Just a question or two Jim as I dont know the answers. Who's was the other 140 racing in that TACCOC meeting....the 'Papatoetoe Twins' as you called them. And is that last pic of John Karnon's car the one that Bryan Wyness now owns. That fuel filler cap looks familiar.
Des Wild in Christchurch purchased the C type from Jack Tutton, and traded David Young from Timaru's 120DHC in on it, then I bought the ex David Young 120C from Des in 1964. The C type ended up with Ian Archibald and eventually sold overseas.
The XK120DHC is the only NZ new 120 DHC still in existence, now lives in Perth, and is the car that featured in the 8 mile chase....Y & Y page 5, post 92.

[jim short]

Amco after a baily or two starting to warm up ..bob has never had a phone so no mater how many times I ring He wont ans. as to the 140 Paul Taven and the distrib, man are the twins with a room full of goodies!! the C Type out side the NSCClub is Parkys?? the xk120 is Rob Whitehous ,,,Wyness some Rev,, and I just heard Whitehouse has it again,originaly Archibalds{its the same one that was second to the Paton with the wrong wheels ,,wrong body.. and wrong motor that thrilled the crowd of 67 spectators 1983 Ardmore reunion at Puke}taken from the 8 oclock..The Mk 2 is very famlilia? think its the one that just headed of Archibalds at the same meeting FTD though Archibald passed it up the back straight along with Dennisis STANDARD Rover v8 and Angus in Lotus Cortina , I think from memory the primrose Jag did a 1.23 Ray a 1.24 and Angus a 1.26 as if they were standing still..I will proof read this after dinner

[Oldfart]

Please Jim, have your dinner and a cuppa or two and proof read this, my feeble peabrain is struggling!

Amco after a baily or two starting to warm up ..bob has never had a phone so no mater how many times I ring He wont ans. as to the 140 Paul Taven and the distrib, man are the twins with a room full of goodies!! the C Type out side the NSCClub is Parkys?? the xk120 is Rob Whitehous ,,,Wyness some Rev,, and I just heard Whitehouse has it again,originaly Archibalds{its the same one that was second to the Paton with the wrong wheels ,,wrong body.. and wrong motor that thrilled the crowd of 67 spectators 1983 Ardmore reunion at Puke}taken from the 8 oclock..The Mk 2 is very famlilia? think its the one that just headed of Archibalds at the same meeting FTD though Archibald passed it up the back straight along with Dennisis STANDARD Rover v8 and Angus in Lotus Cortina , I think from memory the primrose Jag did a 1.23 Ray a 1.24 and Angus a 1.26 as if they were standing still..I will proof read this after dinner

[AMCO72]

Oldfart, you will have to be patient with Jum. He's just had a day behind the wheel visiting and old mate in Whakatane, who is not on the phone...Bob Moore to check on some facts for another thread. When he got back to Tokoroa he was frozen, hence the Baileys drink. Now the Papatoetoe twins are Paul Tavan, and Les Parkinson, both now deceased.....the bit about distributor man and goodies, is a private matter between Jum and me, concerning these guys. The rant about the Paton, a car Jim used to own... the statement....wrong wheels etc made by a well known motoring journalist when describing the Paton as HE saw it.....no matter, water under the bridge, but it upset Jim at the time, and still does!!!!The 8 oclock mentioned was a sports tabloid, and there must have been a write-up about the race which Jim is very proud of, having beaten some more fancied rivals. The primrose Jag is of course Jims own MKII 3.8......primrose colour. Have I covered everything? Had to read it a few times to get the gist. One has to remember that Jim is very passionate about his cars, and does not readily forget when someone passes comments about them that he considers to be false and derogatory!!!! Over and out.

[jim short]

Sorry oldfart only meant for those involved and under stand there cars and drivers,,sugest you contact Amco

[jim short]

Amco you amaze me

[tweaks]

He amazes all of us Jim ..

[Russ Cunningham]

Amco after a baily or two starting to warm up ..bob has never had a phone so no mater how many times I ring He wont ans. as to the 140 Paul Taven and the distrib, man are the twins with a room full of goodies!! the C Type out side the NSCClub is Parkys?? the xk120 is Rob Whitehous ,,,Wyness some Rev,, and I just heard Whitehouse has it again,originaly Archibalds{its the same one that was second to the Paton with the wrong wheels ,,wrong body.. and wrong motor that thrilled the crowd of 67 spectators 1983 Ardmore reunion at Puke}taken from the 8 oclock..The Mk 2 is very famlilia? think its the one that just headed of Archibalds at the same meeting FTD though Archibald passed it up the back straight along with Dennisis STANDARD Rover v8 and Angus in Lotus Cortina , I think from memory the primrose Jag did a 1.23 Ray a 1.24 and Angus a 1.26 as if they were standing still..I will proof read this after dinner

Ahh! very cunning Jim. I can't crack the code but I've emailed copies to MI5 and the KGB so we'll see how good they are.

The Mk2 is very familia? A result perhaps of a late night dalliance between a Jag and a Mazda? Yes, cunning indeed!

[AMCO72]

Russ, you have to understand that to crack Jims codes you have to have stayed at school till you were married, like me, as Jim will gleefully tell you. He on the other hand left school as soon as his feet would reach the pedals on the Bedford, and at this stage of his schooling, they hadn't got up to constructing sentences with full-stops and capital letters!! But he still knows how to go through the full 18 gear gate on a logging truck......beat that.
Sorry Dave, I know you will put up with all this crap, cos you understand Jim better than me, and we have to cut Jim a bit of slack from time to time. I didn't think you would mind this being on your thread, as we are talking about the love of your life, well one of them anyway, Jaguars.

[Dave Silcock]

Gerald, of course I don't mind ,what you have to understand, you Philistine car enthusiasts, is that Jim adheres to the stream of consciouness school of writing. Considered by some to be very avant garde. My excuse for spelling errors are the same as Jim's, left school at 15 to work on trucks. I used to test 18 wheelers round Sydenham untill it was realised I was too young to hold a licence to drive such machines. On the matter of the Blue car, have now done 120 miles in it and am still amazed by it, not just the power but the handling and steering are well above expectations. I now have to spend $1200to $1500 on an engineers report on my roll cage because I was 12 days late filing my application for approval from our masters in Wellington!!!! The hi ratio diff option was looking pretty good there for a while. But not to worry Foggy, you will still get your bum in the seat.

[jim short]

Amco ,,there are somethings for saftey sake ,that up till now had to be a secret seacret seccrett??.When I was working in the USA for three yrs, my employment consisted of allways using codes for them as well as this country And if you had the slightest inkling to the importance of this mision you would hang you head in shame,,But if you really want to upset me Bedford are you joking the bloody Poms never built a mans truck God forbid RL190 then RF190 and upwards my old mate over fiftyfour yrs ago .Now thats not code and to help oldfart out they where a big truck,,Another suprise I was reading an old Taupo progam 1986 7, there is another R Cunningham actually racing a clubmans,,wonder if he is any relation to the Paraparam Flyer???,

[Steve Holmes]

Ahh! very cunning Jim. I can't crack the code but I've emailed copies to MI5 and the KGB so we'll see how good they are.

The Mk2 is very familia? A result perhaps of a late night dalliance between a Jag and a Mazda? Yes, cunning indeed!

You have the email addresses for MI5 and the KGB? I'm impressed!

[AMCO72]

Jim, I'm not up on my trucks, all I know about are Bedfords and Austins.......Yeh yeh, I know. Not a MANS truck. But you dont have to be a MAN to drive a modern truck......just watch 'Ice Road Truckers'.....there are some pretty cool, and just pretty, dames driving these things......automatic transmissions, I ask you!!!!! Anyway the truck model you used to drive...rl190/rf190, are these MAC trucks? I guess in 1965 they didn't have auto trans for real 'He-men'. Just gobble a few more Big Ben Pies to build up the leg muscles. I'm sure they had power steering though, unlike the K Bedford. You had to be a MAN to drive that!!!!
Trouble is they buggered your back as you well know......no ergonomic seating.
Now Dave, you have got to be joking about the engineers report. And why were you 12 DAYS late. For Gods sake, get off the grass.
How do you justify $1200 for a half-hour inspection. Do you have to strip the car so all the anchorage points can be inspected. This is ridiculous. Cant you tell them to go jump!!!! Don't answer that....they will probably tell YOU to go jump....grrrrrrr.

[Russ Cunningham]

You have the email addresses for MI5 and the KGB? I'm impressed!

Yeah Steve! DGM passed them on. How did you think he survives?

[rogered]

r190 was an international, cronins transport had a few of that type of thing at tamahere.
Alot of gear from that vintage had twin gearsticks
So a gear change ment,
clutch in , 1 hand on one stick, another hand on the other stick, and another hand on the steering wheel;)

[Russ Cunningham]

Amco ,,there are somethings for saftey sake ,that up till now had to be a secret seacret seccrett??.When I was working in the USA for three yrs, my employment consisted of allways using codes for them as well as this country And if you had the slightest inkling to the importance of this mision you would hang you head in shame,,But if you really want to upset me Bedford are you joking the bloody Poms never built a mans truck God forbid RL190 then RF190 and upwards my old mate over fiftyfour yrs ago .Now thats not code and to help oldfart out they where a big truck,,Another suprise I was reading an old Taupo progam 1986 7, there is another R Cunningham actually racing a clubmans,,wonder if he is any relation to the Paraparam Flyer???,

Would'nt be the first time someone has entered using my name. Last time it happened It turned out to be Markec. He entered the 'Christchurch Nude Abseiling Championship' but was disqualified because his toes touched the ground. It was your toes! wasn't it Mark?

[jim short]

Amco.meat pies, Macs,truck drivers are always{by macs I asumme you mean big macs} . now I must calm down but big trucks like big women allways excite me,the 190 as we called them was the largest truck in NZ in the 50s made by The International Harvester Co.they had 110,,120..170 and the 190 later on I had a210,that had a Cummins 220hp 2 4speed gearboxs .The 190s{think xk same feeling}started with an L model.petrol motor two gearboxs a 3sp and a 5sp,No power steering untill the 210,,The early ones we had vacum brakes to the 4axel GMC trailers leaf springs,,roll over real quick ,this means on a hill if you miss 1st gear {crashboxs by the way] you had one and one only chance to stop before your reversing was put to a rather nervious test,.The steep hill between Tokora and Whakamara called No 7was a testament to this test with 7 loads of logs all on top of each other for quite some years,we had one truck with a real low diff and it used to take close to 30 mins to reach the top{today probably 3 to 4 mins if that} .A kilometer before the hill there was a stream that in the summer we would soak our boots completley and by the top of the hill they would be dry,.As this is of subject I will just say in 95 at the last Wigram meeting I was chating about the gearchanging in these trucks explaning when I was joined by Spencer Martin and had had the same experiance with these 190s

[jim short]

There was various was of changing .when a driver moved on the new one took over that unit ,straight around to the trailer bay borrow the gas and reshape the levers to suit

[Oldfart]

My memory was that the old main rd hill into Cambridge (South side of town) could be used to see whether you could use all the gears too!

[jim short]

Sadly a thing of the past ,to hit a hill and go down using both boxes bit like music sadly there a few who know what I am saying.you talk to the moden trucky and he thinks you smoking something strange!!

[markec]

I drove a 120 back from Middlemarch to Dunedin as a favour one night, middle of winter snowing heavily,only a windscreen, the others were gone, vacume wipers, talk about sweat. Melted the boot rubber,how guys drove them in the summer I'll never know.What about the Ford Thornton's, when they broke off all the crown wheel rivets.

[Dave Silcock]

Jim, I'm not up on my trucks, all I know about are Bedfords and Austins.......Yeh yeh, I know. Not a MANS truck. But you dont have to be a MAN to drive a modern truck......just watch 'Ice Road Truckers'.....there are some pretty cool, and just pretty, dames driving these things......automatic transmissions, I ask you!!!!! Anyway the truck model you used to drive...rl190/rf190, are these MAC trucks? I guess in 1965 they didn't have auto trans for real 'He-men'. Just gobble a few more Big Ben Pies to build up the leg muscles. I'm sure they had power steering though, unlike the K Bedford. You had to be a MAN to drive that!!!!
Trouble is they buggered your back as you well know......no ergonomic seating.
Now Dave, you have got to be joking about the engineers report. And why were you 12 DAYS late. For Gods sake, get off the grass.
How do you justify $1200 for a half-hour inspection. Do you have to strip the car so all the anchorage points can be inspected. This is ridiculous. Cant you tell them to go jump!!!! Don't answer that....they will probably tell YOU to go jump....grrrrrrr.
No Gerald I kid you not,the roll cage was professionally built out of chrome moly and TIG welded in 08, and inspected by a MSNZ tech person.He informed me that I did not need one as it was a road registered car. I had decided to future proof the car and fit one in the construction stages as you would. I stupidly decided to wait till I could do all the paper work for the car at once not thinking it would take another 4 years.LOL. I sent the application form to them on 12/1/12. on 31/12/11 the regulations changed in that the extra strength of chrome moly, was in effect not recognized, and the main hoop had to be made of thicker mild steel. The upshot of this is that I either have it modified to comply or pay a professional firm of engineers to certify that it is strong enough. There are only two such firms prepared to do such work as the insurance they have to have is very expensive. it 12 days earlier previously it was strong enough.

[woody]

Markec, Would have been tricky getting through Lee Stream and Deep Stream areas.

[Howard Wood]

Dave,

I have sent you a pm with the contact details of someone who may be able to help you. I had exactly the same issue with my "02 cage, having been assured that the design which varied slightly from the MNZ book drawings was all OK, only to be told at final sign off that an engineer's report was required.

[AMCO72]

Dave, I really hope Howards advice has been of use to you. This is a ridiculous situation. If MSNZ want to change a specification for something on a race car, thats fine. Everything constructed AFTER that date has to comply. But you had not only started your rollcage before the advised date, but finished it. They might as well tell all of us to modify our cages to suit the new specification, which is not going to happen, I hope. As you know, all we have to do normally is supply some photos of the frames construction showing anchorages etc, which someone at MSNZ studies, and so long as the job is done by a recognised fabricator, all is sweet. I think that if any official was to actually look at the 'Blue Car', they would very soon come to the conclusion that this machine was assembled by a very dedicated engineer with many many years of experience.
Why would you built a substandard frame in a car anyway, it might be vital in saving your life one day. Think I'll take up 'Chassis Racing'.....just got to find some rusty water-pipe for the frame on the old Plymouth!!!!!!
J.P. Morgan, shipping magnate said.......'A man always has two reasons for doing the things he does: a good reason, and the real reason'.

[AMCO72]

Well, that was probably an over simplification of the roll frame requirements, but you get my drift. What I want to know is how can an engineers report be of much use anyway. The ONLY way you are going test your frame, is to crash the car and see what happens, as used to be done years ago when new designs were propelled into concrete blocks to see what deforms and what doesn't.
I dont want to be around when they crash test the 'Blue Car'.....might need more that a bottle of Jim's rum to calm me down!!!

[markec]

The Inter was a 6x4, partly loaded so had some traction,just a fair bit of wheel slip on the hills, Deep stream was the worst.

[jim short]

Thank God .I thought I had realy lost the plot ,the 120 was a truck !!thought it was Daves 120 now perhaps you will understsand why I am like I am in the sumer it was pumice dust in winter pumice mud bush roads wide eneough for one and a half trucks The empty one must give way and as you were always trying to catch the one ahead you developed good reactions believe you me

[Rod Grimwood]

After reading about this crap with Daves car, some thing is telling me that after my tidy up of my little car, some one in Wellington is going to stuff it all up. As i stopped years ago because of this crap, and it looks like there is still a lot left in the bowl. I just can not be bothered with over the top officialdom any more. I am desperately tying to find my old log book, if i don't find it, that may be it, as i am not changing any thing. Thats how she has been since about 1967 with little bits changed over time so we shall see. (it is still away off yet, so things may mellow/change) TUI Yea Right

[markec]

The ease of finding the log book may depend on how tidier a Kiwi your better half is.If you were married to her at the time of taking the netball players back for a drink etc, you may never find it.I hope you do as it would be a shame for another colourfull character from the past not return to the track.

[Dave Silcock]

After reading about this crap with Daves car, some thing is telling me that after my tidy up of my little car, some one in Wellington is going to stuff it all up. As i stopped years ago because of this crap, and it looks like there is still a lot left in the bowl. I just can not be bothered with over the top officialdom any more. I am desperately tying to find my old log book, if i don't find it, that may be it, as i am not changing any thing. Thats how she has been since about 1967 with little bits changed over time so we shall see. (it is still away off yet, so things may mellow/change) TUI Yea Right

I would not go to too much trouble finding thst log book Rod, they will scew you no matter what you do. Like you I gave up racing cars because of idiot officals. in my case 19 years ago when a clerk of course black flagged me for draggind off two cars in front of me on the grid. He threatened me with fines and cancellation of licence. I put my Cooper Vincent on the trailer and went home never to return. Sold the car to the Canadians. Niel Stuart retired the same day when I told him why I was going home. So I have decided that the Blue car is not going to race under the current regime. There is no point in it, if I can have this much troble over a rool cage. imagine the licence and the COD!!! Fourtunately it is a superb road car and with some higher gearing will be even better.

[AMCO72]

Dave, I am going to pen an answer to that letter, but I need to sit down and think about it!! A couple of 'Jums Rums' might do the trick.

[grelley]

The reason MANZ require an engineers report is to absolve MANZ from any liability should the sh-t ever hit the fan. If this did happen and it went to a court of law, a lawyer would ask the approving official what his qualifications were to approve the cage, which unless he was a suitably qualified engineer,would be none. I have a Cortina with a cage in it to Sched AA. This cage would not pass the current regulations, but because it has a log book, I could still race it, so if you can find the logbook with the cage specification approved you should be ok. I know of instances in NZ where owners of BTCC and DTM BMWs (genuine cars) have also had to supply engineers reports for the cages because they differ from those in the manual. A lot of the enforcement of regulations came about after the Queenstown saga, where volunteer officials were left facing criminal charges.
Grelley

[Trevor Sheffield]

I would not go to too much trouble finding thst log book Rod, they will scew you no matter what you do. Like you I gave up racing cars because of idiot officals. in my case 19 years ago when a clerk of course black flagged me for draggind off two cars in front of me on the grid. He threatened me with fines and cancellation of licence. I put my Cooper Vincent on the trailer and went home never to return. Sold the car to the Canadians. Niel Stuart retired the same day when I told him why I was going home. So I have decided that the Blue car is not going to race under the current regime. There is no point in it, if I can have this much troble over a rool cage. imagine the licence and the COD!!! Fourtunately it is a superb road car and with some higher gearing will be even better.

You can add my name, the late Ron Roycroft and no doubt many others, to the list of those involved in this same saga.

Trevor. :(

[AMCO72]

Dave, it sounds as though you have made up your mind about the Blue Car. Because of the hassle you think you are going to have to get it on the track, you will give up now, and just have some fun with it on the road. That is sad because the enthusiasts are going to be denied the pleasure of [a] watching you race again and [b] seeing and hearing the mighty machine that you have created.
Officialdom has won! I know you are not the kind of person who takes kindly being told what to do. It must be our generation, because the younger fellas going motoracing seem to accept all this 'paperwork' as part and parcel of the sport. I know my son goes through all this quite regularly, but as he says to me....'Dad, if you want to go racing, get used to it; they have got you by the balls'. And as Theodore Roosevelt said.....'if you have 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow'!!!!!!!
The problem is that our generation, the over 65's, were used to, as Frank said, doing it our way, then all it takes is one stupid accident, and one jumped-up official. and the whole scenario changes. We should all probably accept that the 'good old days' have gone for good, and all us 'old farts' are good for is maybe flag marshalling, important though that is.
I dont know whether you have any health issues, but if you do you will be in for a grilling, and if you don't suffer from a mental illness now, you very soon will. I can't see you having trouble with the COD as the car is clearly T and C, a lot more so than some of the machinery out there, but this roll frame thing has got me puzzled. Greeley, this car has not got a log book, yet, and you say that you have one for your car, which is just as well, because it doesn't comply with todays rules, and yet you can race it if you want. Well I'm sorry, but what has the rule got to do with safety then, if you can race a non compliant car, simply because it has a log book from away back, which is Rod's problem too.
I was hoping that Howards tips were going to be of some assistance to you, as if anyone can help you, he should be able to.
Ah well, I have to tell you that I am coming to the South Island early next year, doing a tour of the restoration shops, and of course yours will be high on the list, including a drive. Perhaps we could recreate the 8 mile chase from ChCh to Leeston, in the 'Blue Car' instead of the XK120 C, and I have a pretty good idea which car will be the fastest, and it's not the 120.!!!! Back to 'Jums Rum'.

By the way markec.......interesting observations!!!!!

[Russ Cunningham]

AMCO! Hope you're not suggesting that you may break the speed limits between CH.CH. & Leeston? Jum would not take kindly to that.

[grelley]

Referring to the log book was for the situation with Rod Grimwoods car, not the Jaguar.
Grelley

[Dave Silcock]

The reason MANZ require an engineers report is to absolve MANZ from any liability should the sh-t ever hit the fan. If this did happen and it went to a court of law, a lawyer would ask the approving official what his qualifications were to approve the cage, which unless he was a suitably qualified engineer,would be none. I have a Cortina with a cage in it to Sched AA. This cage would not pass the current regulations, but because it has a log book, I could still race it, so if you can find the logbook with the cage specification approved you should be ok. I know of instances in NZ where owners of BTCC and DTM BMWs (genuine cars) have also had to supply engineers reports for the cages because they differ from those in the manual. A lot of the enforcement of regulations came about after the Queenstown saga, where volunteer officials were left facing criminal charges.
Grelley

Grelley old chap you miss the point, if the barstards from the black lagoon had not changed the regulations then an engineers report would not be required. Consider this, the first car i drove with a roll cage was the TC Escort Don Mc Millan bought from Roy Harrington, the cage , actually it was'nt one , was a hoop of 1.5'' exhaust pipe tubing that went from the floor over the drivers head but secured to the shoulder seat belt mountings on the B pillar, end of story. So if I had that car now with an old time log book, and I had an accident, MSNZ would not be liable in a court of law, but because the one I have now is 12 days out of date they would be!!!! Talk about the Peter Principle [ see Lawrence J Peters on Google] This is complete bullshit

[grelley]

Regarding the Escort, if the logbook were available then as it complied with the regulations at the time then I understand it would be ok, rightly or wrongly. I dont know why the regulations have been changed, or whether the changes originated in New Zealand or overseas, but I still think the main reason is to cover MANZ officials. Do they still have schedule AA for classic cars. This was a slightly lower requirement for classic cars. It seems you are the victim of very bad timing.
Grelley

[Trevor Sheffield]

I still think the main reason is to cover MANZ officials.
Grelley

Really ?????????????????????? :confused: --------

In consideration of the acceptance of this entry and of my being permitted to take part in the Meeting or Events detailed, I agree to save harmless and keep indemnified MotorSport New Zealand Inc., The MotorSport Company Ltd., and it's Shareholding Car Clubs, and Race circuit owner/operators. All the owners and tenants of private property traversed, and the respective officials, fellow competitors, servants, representatives and agents from and against all losses, actions, claims, expenses and demands in respect of death, injury, loss or damage to persons or property of myself, my drivers, passengers or mechanics or any other persons whatsoever howsoever caused arising out of or in connection with this entry or taking part in the events this entry covers specified notwithstanding that such death, injury, loss or damage may have been contributed to or caused by the negligence of the Inviting Club or MotorSport New Zealand Inc or any of their respective officials, servants, representatives or agents or by any other person.

9.4 Indemnity: Every Office Bearer shall be indemnified by MotorSport against any liability (including costs) incurred by them in the discharge of any duty undertaken by them as an Office Bearer of MotorSport, to the extent of MotorSport's funds.

[Rod Grimwood]

The ease of finding the log book may depend on how tidier a Kiwi your better half is.If you were married to her at the time of taking the netball players back for a drink etc, you may never find it.I hope you do as it would be a shame for another colourfull character from the past not return to the track.

Read it again Mark, "I woke up beside car in trailer" not others as I was the shy one. Come to think of it I was the single one. Oh well, they missed out. We will approach it when it happens. Thanks for your thoughts.
Missus actually reckons its all in a big box of stuff she stacked away downstairs years ago, So will have to start digging. Iam actually lucky as she love the Escort and has given permission to go back and play if I give up Rallying.

[markec]

Circuit racing will be cheaper and probably more fun as there is still a little comrardery amongst the players.And yes I was aware of the fact that your were a very noble young feller with good principles,during your travels around the tracks, a bit lonely though.

[crunch]

Hello Dave

If you still wish to progress the roll cage stuff, give me a ring on (06) 3564058.
I wont be home however this week as I am off to Dunedin for the Otago Rally. Home next Monday evening.
Cheers
Raymond Bennett

[Dave Silcock]

I have to thank everyone on here and The State of NZ Motor sport for your support over this matter, as it looks like something good may come of it and not just for me. I have had discussions with Peter Cunliffe of Auto Tech Design, who built the cage and he informs me the quote for the report ,from Opus Engineering, was in the vicinity of $3500!!!!! He has shown a MSNZ chap name of Dave MaCahn the file on my car and others in the same boat as me and he agrees it is a nightmare. Crunch has offered his help so fingers crossed.

[Rod Grimwood]

Dave, Crunch is pretty good bugger, so good to have him here actually.

Got to have this Jaguar racing, as me and Lyall will make trip to have alook.

[jim short]

Just who and when was the last saloon driver killed in NZ????

[conrod]

Just who and when was the last saloon driver killed in NZ????

I can remember a crash at Puke maybe 10 years ago, in a testing accident before an endurance race. Old Holden Commodore, big Chev engine, last minute panic to build/finish car. Brakes failed at end of straight, car hit tyre wall at end of runoff head on. Had very flimsy 6 point cage, car basically folded in half. Can't remember guys name, but had spoken to him a day or so earlier as he wanted a radio set for his car.

[Carlo]

Just who and when was the last saloon driver killed in NZ????

Perhaps not killed but rather died in a race car would be a very good friend David Brown of Timaru. When Davids car did hit the embankement every part of the safety systems / design etc in the car worked as it should and the emergancy services were able to attend to his needs promptly and without difficulty.
Sadly though it was with no success for David's race had been run

There have been some pretty serious injury accidents, Derin Greenslades one at Teretonga being a prime example

[jim short]

I hear a modern ST at Ruapuna recently with a modern rollcage failed!!!???

[jim short]

The most important thing in any crash is luck

[RogerH]

I hear a modern ST at Ruapuna recently with a modern rollcage failed!!!???

What do you mean by "failed"? Did the rollcage collapse?

[bob homewood]

I can remember a crash at Puke maybe 10 years ago, in a testing accident before an endurance race. Old Holden Commodore, big Chev engine, last minute panic to build/finish car. Brakes failed at end of straight, car hit tyre wall at end of runoff head on. Had very flimsy 6 point cage, car basically folded in half. Can't remember guys name, but had spoken to him a day or so earlier as he wanted a radio set for his car.

That was in the race proper ,they were pitted next to us ,he had been in bleeding the brakes just before he went out on that lap

[conrod]

That was in the race proper ,they were pitted next to us ,he had been in bleeding the brakes just before he went out on that lap
yes you are correct Bob, my memory is a little hazy on that one. I heard they were having brake issues, and there was also some question marks raised afterwards about some of the brake fittings that had been used, that may have been the cause of the brake failure. I personally did not see the car afterwards, but was told it basically folded in two.

Conrad Timms

[jim short]

A rollcage does not have to colapse to fail ,,awaiting results!!

[Racer Rog]

Yes I did the report on Daves car, and had been talking and joking with him about 10 minutes before it happened, the car stood up to the crash very well and every thing worked as it was meant to, the one good thing, if you could call it that, was that he got better help at the track than he would have home or work, the medic's gave it their all, and it was very hard on them as they all knew Dave very well, and if he was to have survived, he would have there.
Roger


Perhaps not killed but rather died in a race car would be a very good friend David Brown of Timaru. When Davids car did hit the embankement every part of the safety systems / design etc in the car worked as it should and the emergancy services were able to attend to his needs promptly and without difficulty.
Sadly though it was with no success for David's race had been run

There have been some pretty serious injury accidents, Derin Greenslades one at Teretonga being a prime example

[Powder]

I can remember a crash at Puke maybe 10 years ago, in a testing accident before an endurance race. Old Holden Commodore, big Chev engine, last minute panic to build/finish car. Brakes failed at end of straight, car hit tyre wall at end of runoff head on. Had very flimsy 6 point cage, car basically folded in half. Can't remember guys name, but had spoken to him a day or so earlier as he wanted a radio set for his car.

That sounds like Glen Hawkins' crash during the 1999 Pukekohe 6hr race. Dave Moran (Aussie guy, used to race a VL Walkinshaw) was the codriver and he'd just hopped out of the car.

Malcolm.

[conrod]

That sounds like Glen Hawkins' crash during the 1999 Pukekohe 6hr race. Dave Moran (Aussie guy, used to race a VL Walkinshaw) was the codriver and he'd just hopped out of the car.

Malcolm.

Yes thats it, I remember those names. Is it possible a more "comprehensive" roll cage might have saved this guys neck? From the reports I heard, the cage that was fitted did very little to protect the occupant.

Conrad

[crunch]

I have to thank everyone on here and The State of NZ Motor sport for your support over this matter, as it looks like something good may come of it and not just for me. I have had discussions with Peter Cunliffe of Auto Tech Design, who built the cage and he informs me the quote for the report ,from Opus Engineering, was in the vicinity of $3500!!!!! He has shown a MSNZ chap name of Dave MaCahn the file on my car and others in the same boat as me and he agrees it is a nightmare. Crunch has offered his help so fingers crossed.

Hi Dave;

Sorry to use this format; but can I get your email address and phone number?
Please ring me tonight after 8:30 or tomorrow if suits.

Sorry to everyone else

Cheers:rolleyes:

[Carlo]

Hi Dave;

Sorry to use this format; but can I get your email address and phone number?
Please ring me tonight after 8:30 or tomorrow if suits.

Sorry to everyone else

Cheers:rolleyes:

A little off topic but I trust that you and Alex are not suffering too much after effects from your extensive roll cage testing efforts last weekend Crunch, it sure did not look pretty when we passed by

[crunch]

A little off topic but I trust that you and Alex are not suffering too much after effects from your extensive roll cage testing efforts last weekend Crunch, it sure did not look pretty when we passed by

...my wife tells me I've never looked pretty!
Left road at 176.2kph, 5 or 6 barrel rolls and g-meter registered over 6.
Roll cage did not squash, bend or kink....but I think Alex and I did....

[markec]

8944

[jim short]

Looks like hes cheating no windscreen!!

[Rod Grimwood]

Looks like hes cheating no windscreen!!

Think that was next race Jim.

[jim short]

Rod I try to be ahead what about the wide wheels>>>

[GD66]

Is that Gary Sprague in third spot ?

[crunch]

Hi Dave;

Sorry to use this format; but can I get your email address and phone number?
Please ring me tonight after 8:30 or tomorrow if suits.

Sorry to everyone else

Cheers:rolleyes:

Just an update. I have already spoken to Dave.
Dave's rollcage application was 1 YEAR and 12 days late.
SO what we are trying to source now is a qualified engineer in the Christchurch region who will fill out the roll protection homologation form for a reasonable price. Not the 000's that OPUS quoted.