The Race Replica Debate [Archive]

Steve Holmes

11-08-2011, 12:14 AM

Here you go, have at it boys! Kicking off with AMCO72s questions from the Doyle/Dickie Fastback Anglia thread on the debate over race replicas, and the NZ special, the Custaxie. This is a race replica thread, not just limited to the Custaxie, so go ahead and post your questions/arguments/answers on anything to do with people building and racing race replicas:

Does anyone out there actually KNOW that there is a problem with the Custaxie, or is it just 'pit talk'. The last time I saw it racing was at the 'Evolution Motorsport Classic Speed Fest' at Teretonga on the 20th of February this year. We were down there with the Amco Mini and Angus had the pre65 Morris. He had done a deal with Robbie at Ruapuna that they would swap cars at Teretonga. In the event Robbie did not drive the Morris but Angus drove the Custaxie. I think Robbie wanted Angus's imput as to how the handling might be 'improved', and to this end the car seemed to be in a thousand bits after each race getting 'improved'. I'm not aware of any events since that meeting that the Custaxie would run in, but there may have been. Also at that meeting there was a very nice Ford Escort RS that was 'reputed' to have 300hp under the bonnet, and that it was also having problems with COD compliance. But again this could have been pit talk. I raced around with this guy throughout the weekend, and if that car had 300hp then I'm 'a monkeys uncle', as my old bus has only 106hp at the wheels. So fastback55, I'm sure you will put the car back to 'as near as possible' to how it was, and as you say, ALL race cars change from one year to the next so who's to say what is correct.

The responce from RogerH:

My understanding with the "Custaxie" is that it is not a restoration of an existing period race car (like the Anglia in this thread) but an attempt to reconstruct a car that no longer exists.

If it wants to run at MSNZ events with a COD it does so under Schedule CR and it has two choices - either as a "Replica" or as a "Retrospective Special". If wants to be called the Custaxie then it should be under the "Replica" regulations which state " ... means a car built with the intention of replicating a vehicle that existed in any one of the period classifications. The car must comply with the applicable articles of Schedule K as if it was an original vehicle". Essentially this means that a car is constructed today to replicate an actual period vehicle in the configuration that it ran in period.

From what I understand the "Custaxie" has not been built to replicate what it was in period and changes and "improvements" have been made so it is a different animal from what the real Custaxie was in period.

The option that is left for it is for it to be a "Retrospective Special" which is defined as " .... means a car built for racing events which by its design, silhouette and manufacture has created a vehicle that could have been first manufactured in a previous era ...". However, this doesn't allow the introduction of non-period bits, for example, 6 pot callipers (I'm not saying the "Custaxie" has these). Additionally, it couldn't be called the Custaxie because it doesn't replicate what the Custaxie was.

There are people spending the time replicating period race cars, warts and all and if the car doesn't exit then it can be called what it was called in period. However, if the car does exist (even in bits) then someone can't come along and replicate it and give it the identity of the period car. I bet fastback55 would not be too impressed if someone built up an Anglia from scratch and put "55" on it and called it the Doyle/Dickie Anglia.

It probably all seems a bit bureaucratic but the Custaxie was a great car and it would have been just as easy to build it essentially as it was rather than try and "improve" it into something it never was.

Jac Mac

11-08-2011, 01:11 AM

AMCO72

11-08-2011, 01:58 AM

105 Angria.......I love your comment that you made regarding getting your car OK'ed........was all straightforward except for the $680 one off cost for the COD. Flipping-heck. Glad I dont live in OZ, thought the $98 to MSNZ was bad enough. How do they justify such a figure for a bit of rubber stamping. And yes Jac Mac, we should be getting appearance money.....lucky to get a bottle of 'Chardon' for crossing the line.

RogerH

11-08-2011, 02:31 AM

All comes down to who wants what...take the first single seater Begg V8, currently I believe in Daimler V8 powered guise, why shouldnt someone build it also in Chev V8 formatt, The Doyle car with original 'high' roof & sans fastback with stacks up thru the hood is another, There was the Fahey/Tulloch versions of the same car, where do we stand on replicas of say Cobra's, Daytonas, GT40's, Gran Sport Corvettes, D-Types etc..I mean real bolt for bolt stuff like Dave Brown builds down my way--not plastic fantastic sillouette stuff... not likely to see many if any of the original/genuine ones at these meetings anymore are we... the other thing we keep forgetting is anyone with these cars is going to pay plenty for the building/racing of them for absolutely no reward

Most of the historic racing clubs that I'm aware of don't accept newly created replicas - like the Cobras etc. I presume they are able to run at Clubmans type meetings.
The Begg V8 single seater raises and interesting issue. The original car still exits and up until recently was raced in both the Damiler V8 and Chev V8 configuration. Should it be allowed that someone can build a new one today and call it the Begg V8 when the original exits or if a facsimile of it is newly created is it termed a retrospective special and just called a replica period special. In my mind a car can only be called a Begg if it was built by George Begg. Its a bit like trying to call a painting a Picasso when it wasn't painted by him.

Jac Mac

11-08-2011, 03:03 AM

Another bitch I have...there are a few... is the COD thing.. IIRC it took about three years for MSNZ to actually return the actual COD on one car that I had some involvement in, during that period the car was allowed to compete under a ''COD applied for'' basis, funny part was as soon as the COD had been issued they were asked to re-apply & list any changes that might have been made in those three years... more money for jam.. perhaps we/you should all wear open face helmets, throw away the Hans device & triple layer fire suits...if nothing else you will no longer have an excuse for running into the side of someones pride & joy & the lack of fireproof overalls might encourage some owners to take a more proactive interest in the preparation of the car, I for one am sick of finding stuff like fuel lines against header pipes, brake lines being pinched between suspension components...geometry that is tearing mount brackets out of chassis tubes.... all with multiple tech inspection stickers

RogerH

11-08-2011, 03:42 AM

Another bitch I have...there are a few... is the COD thing.. ,

I agree that the MSNZ COD "story" is a sad inditement of bureaucracy. It probably started out with good intentions but the system failed along the way and it hasn't ended up achieving the intention of ensuring cars are "pure" to the regulations. There are cars that have CODs that shouldn't, there are cars that should have CODs that haven't got them and there are cars that have CODs but have changed in the interim to such an extent that they would no longer comply for a COD.
Most clubs don't require CODs as a mandatory requirement to race. The only benefit in having a COD (if you have a pre 1986 car) is that it allows you to use race gas. This is a crazy situation as it was never what the COD was intended for and the MSNZ race gas "ban" was a misguided crusade by some greenies within MSNZ staff - now departed.
I had to end up getting five CODs for my cars and the effort and cost was a joke - with my latest car I have avoided the whole system by getting a VCC identity form and a VCC log book which I understand are accepted by MSNZ and the whole process cost me $23 compared to MSNZ costs of $148.

AMCO72

11-08-2011, 05:06 AM

RogerH

11-08-2011, 05:53 AM

I am just going through this COD thing right now with the Amco Mini. You wouldn't have thought it would be a problem. It's a well known car, has never 'disappeared', still has it's original body, and wheels, and upholstery, and most else, except of course the current engine. The new engine being assembled right now is even better......has the original Arden 8 port head, that had to be extensively and expensively repaired, and the original twin Dellorto carburetors. And I mean the original.... the head and carbs were the ones on the car in 1972. Of course with racing over many years things have worn out, been replaced, and some originality is lost ,inevitably. The alternative is the cars are showpieces. So the Mini is as good as you could get in originality terms..... it certainly hasn't been re-bodied for instance. My application is being 'processed' at the moment. Are you telling me RogerH that my VCC log book and COD allow me to race in,say, the festival of speed in January at HD. My understanding was that the VCC certification only applied to VCC events, other wise I wouldn't have gone to all this trouble in getting a MSNZ form. And if the VCC can issue a COD for $23, why does it cost 5 times that here for a MSNZ one, and 30 times that in OZ, for a rubber stamp. Doesn't add up to me.

Gerald, the VCC option unfortunately only applies to pre 31.12.1960 cars so your Amco Mini will need to go through the much more expensive MSNZ COD system. With your Amco Mini COD I would have thought you would have no issues.
There is an agreement that goes back many years between MSNZ and VCC where each recognises each other's documentation. The matter with MSNZ fees is ongoing and there seems little correlation between the fee charged and the service provided. An example is the Trans Tasman Visa (TTV) which every Kiwi racing their cars in Australia is required to buy from MSNZ for $250 (and it only lasts for a year). The first time I fronted up at documentation in Australia with my TTV they asked what it was and said I didn't need it!! When I came back I asked MSNZ what I was getting for my $250 they said insurance cover (but CAMS provided that anyway!!) and I was then told by the MSNZ staff member that if I could afford to take a car to Australia to race then I could afford to pay MSNZ $250 for the privilege!!
I think both MSNZ and CAMS have evolved into bureaucracies and as such the fees you pay for anything is required to feed the system. On the other hand VCC is much more volunteer based and doesn't have all the "fat cats" and their fees are accordingly much, much more reasonable.

GeebeeNZ

11-08-2011, 07:01 AM

This is a very interesting debate as I understand that the VCC will give a VIC to recently built period specials built out of period parts. Thus it has been possible for more than one C type Jaguar with Mk 7 running gear to be classified as a C type Replica and allowed to run in Vintage circuit events as a pre 1960 car. With enough time and money it is possible to virtually build a brand new model A Ford out of new parts. Many old cars are not really all that old.
The other thing that intrigues me is the reshelling of classic racing sedans. e.g. Is it really still the one that raced at Ardmore in 1957 Whatever the answer I still think that it is great that the Custaxie, V8 Dauphine, Coppins Zephyr Corvette Replicas are out there. As long as there is only one of them.

bob homewood

11-08-2011, 07:25 AM

The replica issue is in some ways worrying ,most of the Saloon cars I have owned and raced have all disappeared ,most of them scrapped ,does this mean I am now free to go out and replicate all of them wholesale ? I mean I still have a pretty good idea in my head how I built them and what I used ,but consider how many people ever really took any notice of exactly of how and what I did ,who is going to challenge me on those issues ,please note I am only using this as a example of what I believe is wrong and leaves itself wide open to misuse ,also would this extend to at least a couple of cars I know off that were built but never really saw the light of day so as to speak

AMCO72

11-08-2011, 07:34 AM

GeebeeNZ.......this business of re shelling classic racing saloons is a subject I bought up in another thread. We seriously considered making a replica of the Amco Mini and keeping the 'real' one safe. I shudder now to think that we even considered going down that road, but we did. Of course a Mini is one of the easiest of saloons to do this to, and we could have make a pretty convincing 'clone' of the car. BUT, then sanity prevailed.....whew, thank goodness for that. The biggest part of the enjoyment of driving that car is that you are thinking, when your roaring down the back straight at Pukekohe , with the rev counter hovering around 8,000, [ 129 mph by the way] and looking at all the dings and holes in the floor-pan, with the water pissing in if it is a wet day, that this old bus is THE very machine that was doing this in 1972 with Rod Collingwood behind the wheel, and I can tell you, it doesn't get much better than that. The replica probably would have done the job just as well, maybe even slightly better, but it would not be the same, and I would have felt like a bloody fraud!! You mention that you can build a Model A out of new parts, and that some 'Vintage' cars are not actually that old. I had a mate who built from scratch a 1924 Crossley 20/70....a very rare car in the world. He started with a chassis and front axle, and because the car was so rare the cost was justified. The finished article was as good as the original, he was a very clever engineer, but it wasn't a 1924 Crossley, was it.

Jac Mac

11-08-2011, 07:48 AM

Bob, I dont see why not if you built & owned them, the problem as you state is how much 'creative licence' you use in building that replica, after all I assume you probably 'know' more now than you did at the time you built those cars & naturally would with the benefit of hindsight do some stuff different, I wouldnt think that would be a major problem, take for example if someone else fronted up with one of your old cars & asked you to help..would you leave it exactly as it was or make minor developements that might help it. In a perfect world that sort of thing would be self policing, problem is this avenue of motorsport is supposed to be 'country Gents' type racing, more about a brisk demonstration of the car rather than out n out racing.. many of the drivers still think they are 20 odd years old & bulletproof & once out the pit gate it is a free for all, what really worries me at times is how many look like they are about to have a stroke or heart attack at race end

AMCO72

11-08-2011, 08:28 AM

Country Gents, my foot. The way some of these guys go past me is not very gentlemanly I can tell you. Talking about heart attacks, how many fat,sweaty old men do you see squeezing themselves into race overalls at the START of the race let alone when they are trying to disrobe at the end, usually having to get their girlfriends or wifes to help them extract their hairy bodies from the confines of the nomex!!!!Oh dear, too many hot dogs and chips I'm afraid. Thats why I got pissed off when I got a grilling going for my race licence. I think I am reasonably 'slim' and healthy LOOKING compared to some, but I will probably drop dead first......it's in the genes you know.

bry3500

11-09-2011, 01:00 AM

i remember reading an article by the late and great Dennis Jenkinson regarding a fellow in the UK who was restoring a fairly poor example of a Bugatti type 35. It seems a lot of parts and panels were passed their use by date and he set about refabricating or buying replacement parts . The old parts were put in a dumpster behind his workshop. At some point he was a approached by a gentleman who asked if he could have the old parts if they were being disposed of, and our restorer agreed.
You can probably guess what happened...some time later , 2 Bugatti Type 35s turned up a meeting with the same serial numbers, history etc. Which was the replica?

RogerH

11-09-2011, 04:01 AM

Talking about the late great Denis Jenkinson, he put out his interpretation on genuine, replica etc cars. Here it is :

In Denis Jenkinson’s book, “Directory of Historic Racing Cars – The Survivors-Genuine, Authentic & Facsimile, Jenkinson in his own words, “an attempt has been made to sort out the real from the unreal in order to try to retain a sense of proportion”. In doing so he complied a Glossary of terms to try and label historic and non historic cars.

Glossary of Terms

‘Original’ Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have had to have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes close to an original racing car as it is possible to get.
The ‘old-car industry’ frequently uses degrees of originality, such as ‘nearly original’, almost original’, even ‘completely original’ but all such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing car that has only had a few sets of tyres and a change of sparking plugs since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have remained ‘original’ such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles, and so on, and reproduction parts are made to ‘original drawings’ and ‘original material specification’, but this does not make them ‘original’ parts, nor does a complete car built from such components qualify as ‘original’, regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is nothing more than a ‘reproduction’ or ‘facsimile’.

‘Genuine’ This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous lives, with no occasions when they have ‘disappeared into limbo’ or changed there character in any way. Most E.R.A,s come into this category as they have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A as ‘Romulus’ is not ‘original’, as it has been repainted, re-upholstered, new tyres have been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine; but it is unquestionably ‘Genuine’.

‘Authentic’ This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered career through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from view. The ‘Entity’, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has always been around in some form or another, but has now been put back to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old Grand Prix car that was converted into a road going sports car when its useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine replaced by a touring engine, and eventually being allowed to deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank, new wheels made, new body-work, instrument panel, seat, upholstery and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the labours can justifiably be described a ‘Authentic”. There is no question of it being ‘Original’ and to describe it as ‘Genuine’ would be unfair to its sister cars that remained Grand prix cars all there lives, even though such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due to the ravages of time and use.

‘Resurrection’ Some racing cars when they reached the end of their useful racing life, were abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still scattered about. There have been numerous cases were such components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a new car; a new chassis frame and a new body were required and, from the bare bones or the ashes of the original, another one appears. It cannot claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an authentic car. At best it is a ‘Resurrection’ from the dead, or from the graveyard.

‘Re construction’ This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection to the original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left over when decomposition set in.

‘Facsimile’ Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a “replica” of the four genuine cars, but such a situation is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real thing. Other facimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built. The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have brought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.

‘Special’ This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he is racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one. The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car, by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean that the car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally accepted as ‘Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or a facsimile’.

‘Duplication’ This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an incomplete car as a ‘basket case’ and with the left hand sold an incomplete car as a ‘box of bits’ The two buyers eventually found suitable second hand components to replace the missing parts, or had new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand prix Bugattis were there had only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club- and the majority of it’s members-strongly disapprove of this practise. Unfortunately the disease has spread too many other makes, especially those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business borders on fraud.

‘Destroyed” A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in recognizable shape or form.

“Scrapped” This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to recreate a new car. In no way can the new car be describe as genuine. If the factory scrapped a car and removed the number from its records, then that car has gone forever, and a nebulous collection of old and new components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped numbers.

“Broken up” Similarly if a factory records that a car has been broken up, I should mean exactly that. It has gone for good.

“Converted” There have been examples of a type A model being converted by the factory into a type B and then into a type C. The particular car as an entity never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognise that the type C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car back to a type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in 1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well documented continuous history, and is as genuine as they come, but it can never revert back to R4B.

Howard Wood

11-09-2011, 04:50 AM

Hard to argue with those definitions. Its also hard to argue against replicas, as long as they are described as such and continue to be described as such. From the replica pre war Auto Unions to the Custaxie, the historic race car scene is better off with these cars especially where the original no longer exists.

The FIA HTP or MNZ COD system is not there to judge if a car is genuine or not but whether the specification is period correct. That surely is what is important, if you build a car to the correct specs, say Sched K in NZ, which frankly is not a cheap exercise you want to be able to play with similar cars, not some hot rod with carbon fibre, sequential 'box or a later engine.

My experience with getting a Sched K logbook for my BMW Alpina 2002 Replica was actually quite simple and I would be very suprised if the Amco Mini for example would not be the same. Only difference is the Mini will always be THE Amco Mini.

RogerH

11-09-2011, 06:33 AM

There are cars like your superb Alpina 2002 which is built up from a real car and is a replica of a documented car. Gerald's Amco Mini is another example.
However, the cars like the Custaxie are potentially another story in that they are presented as a replica but they aren't actually a replica of the car they are meant to replicate. They may look like the original car at 20 paces but internally they are "improved". This is where the problem lies. If they are "improved" then genuine cars in an historic grid are aggrieved because they have gone to the trouble of doing it properly and they want to, as Howard says, "play with similar cars, not some hot rod with carbon fibre, sequential 'box or a later engine".
On the other hand, the "punters" just want to see some action and aren't too concerned whether the cars are hot rodded or not. There is a place for these cars but it probably isn't amongst a grid a genuine cars or accurate replicas??

Howard Wood

11-09-2011, 08:04 AM

Couldn't agree more Roger.

The nice thing from my perspective is that there seems to be a move towards "doing it properly", just look at what Dale Mathers and HRC are trying to do with their NZ Muscle Car regs and the matching thread on the Camaro transformation from hot rod to "proper" race car.

If enough people take the effort there is no reason why us pedants and "the punters" cannot both be happy, being period correct does not mean the car should not be used as intended.

Kiwiboss

11-09-2011, 09:51 AM

Great topic guys!! we will all never agree on the "Replica" race car debate, just too many variables!!! but one thing i've learn in my overseas(mainly USA) travels is that us Kiwis are our own worst enemys!!! and it comes down to the nature of the beast and im just as bad!! first is "cost" so OK i have this!! want to build a Custaxie(use as example) replica dream because i remembered it as a kid, what is the most least expensive way i can achieve this, its usually a compromise of using modern avaliable parts, a 5 speed supra gearbox is cheaper than trying to find an old "say" Jaguar gearbox, etc and on and on it goes until one day when finished, shit i dont think it is a custaxie replica anymore, oh well not many will know and the "punters" will see the Silhoutte and think it is anyway, job well done!!! so to me its really several things, the state of our economy, our small market, and what you can do youself(with mates helping) but don't get me wrong we need these replicars, recreations, etc, where as in America(a market i kinda know) and American with a healthy cheque book will pay someone(usually a kiwi living over there) to build him a 100% replicar, and when i say 100% i mean 100%!! infact the attention to detail can be amazing, and has amazed me over the years!! now these guys are usually the first to hold there hand up and say hey its a replica, but the value in it is in the attention to exact detail, and the physical COST to build it in todays market, something that just can't be done economically for personal use in NZ. and thats usually why all the exact replicas built in NZ(D type Jags for example) are paid for by some overseas guy and shipped offshore when done!!! and offcourse the reason behind this replica building is usually the original is horrifically high priced at even a replica gets good money to a common man such as myself.

So, all im trying to do with our little "Historic Muscle car" class is to get similar thinking owners to build/rebuild reasonably acurate replicas of a certain era in saloon racing(usually from 66 to 78) as close as possible(with compromises) and go "Historic" racing for only one reson, FUN!! and yet have vehicles that you can identify with when in the pits!! without a doupt the most spectacular "Silhoutte" old saloon class in NZ is Central Muscle cars, they pull the "punters" and most watching couldn't care less, infact im sure some are watching just to see the crash and bash, but to me and others when viewed in the pits they are really just "Sports Sedans" my American mate sumed it up when he raced with them at Taupo, "NASCAR in old cars" but in NZ this group is SO very much Kiwi that its hard to break the cycle and would NEVER live in other Vintage/Historic motorsport country's. As for HMC, well, im just trying to do my little bit to push along my choosen hobby with the knowledge i've learnt overseas, time will tell, but i do have some very good backers.

RogerH, luv the Glossary of Terms!! just so correct.

Bedtime

Dale Mathers

AMCO72

11-09-2011, 07:16 PM

Howard......we can all relax. Got my COD application approved and issued with a K classification, and because it is THE genuine vehicle can apply for a Historic Vehicle Passport through the FIA. Got 2 fancy little stickers to place near the competition numbers on the doors, so is all good.

Rod Grimwood

11-09-2011, 09:05 PM

AMCO72, good news, that wasn't hard was it. Now get out there on the tread mill and rowing machine to get rid of all your worry lines.

I wonder what i face with my rebuild. It is Original (panels) and Genuine ? I will be intersted to find the ruling on roll cage as i would like to Add 2 bars for safety. Does this mean a whole new cage ? If so maybe she can wait awhile.

AMCO72

11-09-2011, 10:56 PM

Thanks Rod. And no, it wasn't too bad. I'm such an impetuous bastard that I expect things to be done yesterday!! Stuff this treadmill thing....walking to the gate to get the mail is about as much as I can manage, and all the trips to the letterbox lately to see if my COD had come, amounted to several miles, so that should do! We had a similar debate about the original roll frame in the Mini, which was just a very simple affair. Angus decided that he would start again, and get it homologated, and as he is a certified roll-cage builder was no problem. So good luck with your build and hope to see the car out soon.

Steve Holmes

11-10-2011, 12:22 AM

Interesting debate, and one that doesn't really have a right or wrong answer. I like Rogers post with the various Jenks explanations. For me personally, I don't have an issue with replicas being built, if the original car no longer exists. But if a replica is to be built, I think it needs to be as exacting to the original as possible, warts and all. To build a replica when the original vehicle is gone is to bring back to life, as much as possible, the essence of that car, all its quirks, good and bad. So to build an improved version of it doesn't make much sense to me. But you know what they say about opinions and arseholes! Thats just mine.

The one thing thing that can't be recreated when building a replica is the character, and the sense of history. I love race cars with history, you can almost see the ghosts rising up off them, of the people that have raced them, the people that have worked on them, the tracks they have raced at, and the crowds they have entertained. I once drove Robbie Francevics GTHO Phase III. It had been fully restored when I drove it, but for me it was buzz to be sat on the seat where Robbie sat his arse (OK, it had been reupholstered, but you get my drift), holding the same wheel Robbie held, when he slid that car around Bay Park or Pukekohe. When Gerald climbs in behind the wheel of his AMCO Mini and stares out the windscreen, he knows the battles his car has endured, and the history and lives his car has come in contact with over its 40 plus years as a race car. Thats the one thing you can't replicate or recreate.

But hey, accurate replicas, if built true to the original, can allow people to gain an appreciation for the original car.

timbo61

11-10-2011, 12:52 AM

It never used to worry me that much, but at the recent Muscle car masters at Eastern Creek, there were so many replica's of famous Touring cars that I thought it was getting a bit too much.
If a car no longer exists, then perhaps a replica could be built (but not allowed to race against cars which are the genuine article, and only able to run in regularity events, demonstrations etc), but it all got too much when TWO identical Peter Brock Marlboro VK Commodore touring cars turned up for demonstration laps.
Perhaps a register of replica cars is needed so we don't end up with multiple examples of a car which is no more.

AMCO72

11-10-2011, 02:58 AM

Absolutely true Steve. What is especially nice in our case is that not only do we have the car, but also to two guys responsible for it's creation. Rod and Dave worked long hours in Daves' garage in 1969/70 getting this machine up and running, and on a pretty tight budget. The rest, as they say is history. We all got together for the first time in 39 years at the Bruce McLaren festival, and it was quite an emotional meeting. Dave Panckhurst had been in on the rebuild for some time, and has been invaluable insofar as he has given us tips as to how they did it originally, and has attended a number of race meetings as our Honorary mechanic, being with us at both Skope and Teretonga early this year. During some demonstration runs at the Bruce McLaren, Rod took me out in the car and talked me round a lap of Puke as he used to drive it in 1972......a bit slower I have to say!!!!! Was rather amusing, when we were about half way down the back straight he was looking for a 5th gear......he had forgotten what 8,000 in a Mini sounded like, and he used to regularly rev it to 10,000. It all made me feel part of a very special team.

RogerH

11-10-2011, 03:22 AM

Do I sense a consensus that a today built replica of a period unique car should be as close as possible to the configuration and look of the original car without modern "improvements" and that no such replica should be allowed when the original still exists or if it doesn't exist and there is already a proper replica in existence?

Oldfart

11-10-2011, 03:47 AM

Certainly my feelings Roger. What happens then if at some stage in the future the orignal turns up? After all there are still lost cars turning up!

RogerH

11-10-2011, 04:46 AM

Certainly my feelings Roger. What happens then if at some stage in the future the orignal turns up? After all there are still lost cars turning up!

I suppose the replica would need to change it's identity if the original subsequently surfaced. For example, if a proper replica Custaxie was made and then the original car (or enough parts of it to reconstruct the real thing) turned up, then it would be the real Custaxie and the replica would then be described as something like the "Ford Customline Special".

bry3500

11-10-2011, 04:59 AM

What if someone wanted to build an earlier version of a car ...let's say the Doyle Anglia for example, without the chopped roof , reshaped guards and fastback..would that be kosher?

Jac Mac

11-10-2011, 05:47 AM

What if someone wanted to build an earlier version of a car...let's say the Doyle Anglia for example, without the chopped roof , reshaped guards and fastback..would that be kosher?

I like the idea of being able to do that..The PDL Mustang is built now as 'Electric Blue', but why not another as ex Fahey-non flared with 15" minilites.. Rod Coppins Camaro in Winfeild? non flared dress...but I do think it should be as close as possible to its overall configuration for 'that' point in time....however, that is also a double edged sword...some of these cars had 'engineering or basic design faults' built into them at the time of which the constructor concerned was possibly not aware of...where do you draw the line on that sort of thing... I know in my own case I just fix the problem... then the car if I have done it right ends up being a bit faster or better to drive...and yes then you get some crusty old bastard that remembers exactly how it was built originally poking his nose in & start telling you that is cheating...cant win with some people

Does it really matter, I reckon there are more replica 'Allan Moffat' GTHO's than most others, This HMC class that Dale & Co are trying to get up & running will likely end up having cars painted up like Smokeys Camaro, Bud Moores Mustang, Donohues Camaro etc, I hope they do anyway & the more they reflect the technology of that time the better & if someone comes along with a 'Williment' escort to keep them honest- great.

bob homewood

11-10-2011, 06:04 AM

Yes its interesting ,one car I owned raced in its time with three different brands of engine , with and without a roof chop and in my time had a completely different front nose ,thats six variations of the one car you could recreate ?.my Toyota raced in two different body styles,and I guess I am free to recreate the mk2 Escort I had once as there is no way it is coming back ,strange if we are not careful ,we will end up with more cars than ever raced

RogerH

11-10-2011, 06:33 AM

strange if we are not careful ,we will end up with more cars than ever raced

A bit like the Mk1 Lotus Cortina - of the 3306 built, over 5900 still exit today.

Rod Grimwood

11-10-2011, 07:43 AM

Kiwiboss

11-10-2011, 07:59 AM

It seems to me only certain vehicles seem to get "Replicated" those from an era where they created a bit of there own history and mystique, and that live in the mines of ones dream to own(but never will) the real car!! probably just how i see it but thats why i race my dear ol Mustang, 14 years old hanging though the fence at Baypark watchin Jim Richards cain the sidchrome Mustang around the track, open exhaust, etc set me thinking "I gotta get me one of those" so years later the original can't be bought oh not a problem i'll build me own!! not that im trying to past my orange mustang of as a Sidchrome replicar, im just living the dream on what it must have been like to race back then!! my Mustang as with most these days has modern technology added, it just can't be helped, wilwood brakes are cheaper than finding and buying the original parts and they last longer, along with other items but to me atleast i went someway to making sure my racer still "has that Vintage look and feel" that the car should be, EG: a Mustang with certain major correct parts still fitted!! and as Jac Mac say's we at HMC are trying to replicate an era in over 3L Saloon racing with replica looking cars because lets face it, they aint no way here in NZ we will ever get all the original cars(Mustangs, Camaro's, Pontiac's, Falcon's, Monaro's) back on the track racing together. But then there are other Mustangs racing in the Central group that have big modern air dams, fibreglass doors, fenders, high scoops, aluminum engines, the list goes on, but i guess to there owners they are living the dream in there own mines as well, and they must be otherwise why would you even bother!!! so thats why at HMC we have decided on a set of rules and boundaries where they must "Replicate that era" to beable to race, especially anything visual like body work, hidden items like Wilwood brakes, Dog gearbox, etc we can live with.

And as we haven't had a race yet, i guess time will tell?

Dale Mathers

RogerH

11-10-2011, 10:37 AM

What was the thing/things about the Custaxie, it obviously put some nose's out. So what were the differences. Lets get this out in the open, as it has obviously upset someone. Alot of work went into this vehicle, and involved alot of people who were there at the start, so lets air the difference's.

I don't know all the specifics but I understand that what happened was that a COD application was put in for the "Custaxie" on the basis that it was a true replica of the original car - it needed to be this to be able to race in MSNZ historic events as a Schedule CR Three car (Replica Saloons up to 31.12.1977). The application form was evidently not comprehensive and some basic clarifications were asked of the applicant along the lines of its built format being consistent with the original car (I presume clarifying that it was in fact a true replica). From what I understand, no response to these questions was ever received back from the applicant so no COD was issued.
I suppose interpretations of the lack of response could be that the "Custaxie" was not in fact a replica but something that just looked like the Custaxie from 20 paces or that it was not in replica period format but was "improved" with modern performance enhancing components.
It would be interesting to find out what the differences actually were between "Custaxie" and the original car.

Rod Grimwood

11-10-2011, 07:12 PM

Have a good look if you get the chance and you may not find too much "modern" in it. At 2 paces it still looks very much like the original set up to me, and I am only going off what i remember and photos from past. I would have it at a guess, and it is only a guess that the people involved have had there fill of paper work over the years, and as they are not running the car to win a farm most probably can not be bothered with the paper work as each bit of paper has $'s attached. Another point is, Who knows how the original was built. Robbie and Tony were the original builders. Another factor is Robbie likes his golf.

Steve Holmes

11-10-2011, 08:33 PM

I like the idea of being able to do that..The PDL Mustang is built now as 'Electric Blue', but why not another as ex Fahey-non flared with 15" minilites.. Rod Coppins Camaro in Winfeild? non flared dress...but I do think it should be as close as possible to its overall configuration for 'that' point in time....however, that is also a double edged sword...some of these cars had 'engineering or basic design faults' built into them at the time of which the constructor concerned was possibly not aware of...where do you draw the line on that sort of thing... I know in my own case I just fix the problem... then the car if I have done it right ends up being a bit faster or better to drive...and yes then you get some crusty old bastard that remembers exactly how it was built originally poking his nose in & start telling you that is cheating...cant win with some people

Does it really matter, I reckon there are more replica 'Allan Moffat' GTHO's than most others, This HMC class that Dale & Co are trying to get up & running will likely end up having cars painted up like Smokeys Camaro, Bud Moores Mustang, Donohues Camaro etc, I hope they do anyway & the more they reflect the technology of that time the better & if someone comes along with a 'Williment' escort to keep them honest- great.

Actually thats a good point, as it raises another question about what I call 'tribute cars', ie, cars which race and have copied the colour scheme of a historic race car, but nothing else. There are quite a few of these racing in the various muscle car racing classes; eg, Coppins Camaro in its Cambridge livery, Chickadee Commodore, Penske Javelin, HDT Marlboro Commodores and Toranas, Moffat/Geoghegan 1973 Bathurst winning XA Falcon hardtop etc etc. I quite like these cars. The owners aren't trying to pass them off as the originals, they're just paying a sort of tribute to them. There are also several red and gold MkI Escorts that race at historic events that have copied the Alan Mann paint scheme.

Murray Maunder

11-10-2011, 09:45 PM

Roger, thanks for posting the Jenks guide to historic categories. Amazing that it reads so well today with the recent proliferation of cars across the little guy's classes! Thanks to Jenks of course for everything!

The NZ saloon class has dominated this thread as one would expect, from those early monsters of ingenuity which way predated the Custaxie, to the HMCs being fettled for next January and beyond. May I just introduce another example of interest to some of us kids of the 60s/70s - the 1968 McLaren M8A "restoration?" project, near completed in the hands of Duncan Fox on behalf of the Bruce McLaren Trust.

I have traced much of it's history (with Duncan and others) and documented on video major stages of it's rebuild, with comments recorded from Duncan and others who were there in '68. That's as close to building racecars as I have ever been - just a dyed-in-the-wool enthusiast! I am passionate that what we, as enthusiasts, see at historic/vintage race meetings is categorised and classified accurately. I feel a need to know whether this is a faithful reproduction, a rebuild, or that rare "original".

Back to M8A/1. A small piece of original fibreglass was put into the bodywork (or moulds) of the new incarnation as I understand it. One of the bulkheads (rear?) is repaired but most of the chassis and all the alloy skins are new. A number of mechanical components have been saved or found from the original. The chassis number tag defines it's pedigree. It's history after it's glorious winning of the CanAm series of 1968 with Denny at the wheel is - errr.... chequered. Excuse the pun! Motschenbacher raced it, crashed it, modified it, and eventually via GoodYear it came back to NZ via Denny, Motat, Northern Sports Car Club, to the BMT.

My point is that the Jenks rule seems to place considerable worth on this type of reincarnation (or what ever term you care for). I do too, for no other reasons than;

It represents a glorious piece of NZ's international motor racing heritage
It's one of only 3 McLaren M8A's built and will always be the only one in existence from this point on
Many of us 60s/70s kids only ever saw these amazing cars in photos.

I am interested to hear other people's reflections and opinions on how something like this car sits in the world of historic racing, especially in terms of validity. Does it's historical importance and rarity make any difference to it's modern day existence? What are informed fans of international historics likely to say for example if/when M8A/1 turns up at the Goodwood Festival of Speed and Revival meetings?

We all come from different sectors of the historics wheel. Constructor types may consider anything that has required much "interpretation" to build back to it's present state, as less than totally valid. Or is that more arbitrary in line with how well researched and executed the rebuild was? I certainly was blown away by this research aspect to the 21st century M8A with the huge photo archive, old plans and conversations from Bruce McLaren Motor Racing personnel.

A grid full of genuine CanAm cars of the era is not just a possibility but a reality, I must get to Elkhart Lake one day! Without good discernment of "values", grids like this would either not exist or would have no value to the "true" enthusiast.

(Steve, I don't know whether this belongs with the context of this thread so feel free if you think it could form a new thread to do so.)

These comments just represent my own opinions and concerns and a precis of what I have gleaned from Duncan Fox about his project. I am prepared to be corrected on matters of detail wrongly reported. I'm really interested to hear what others think on some of these issues. Good health to you all and keep the wheels turning! :)

Muz

pallmall

11-10-2011, 10:49 PM

My guess is the M8A is 'authentic' in terms of Jenk's descriptions. I doubt that its provenance could ever be challenged, there is probably more research gone into this project than any other.

On the subject of tribute cars described above by Steve, I am a little uneasy about these. While the owners intentions are probably well placed, some of these cars are just so different, yes it may be a Camaro of the same year, but nothing really at all like the original apart from the livery, which in some cases isn't correct either. I wonder a little in some cases it is a chance to run in tobacco livery under the pretext of replicating an original car or having a tribute car. And, it is going to get even more silly when an original car is restored and you also have tribute cars looking the same from 100 metres away. I guess it is still a free country and I just have to accept it, but I don't have to agree.

Murray Maunder

11-11-2011, 03:12 AM

Pallmall, I tend to agree. Tribute cars are well meaning attempts to honour a favourite of the past but can give a false impression on track as their racing characteristics tend to be nothing like the original. Sound, performance, handling should ideally be only slightly an improvement on the glory days, for example 585HP F5000 cars (or whatever they make these days) reflecting ongoing inprovements in metallurgy etc.

It's an interesting argument if kept friendly but I can imagine could become very heated in the paddock between car owners.

RogerH

11-11-2011, 03:34 AM

Another component of this issue is the mechanical adherence to period specs. With Formula Junior for example, there is a philosophy supported by an ever increasing rule book that subscribes to the "as it was, so it shall be" approach.
The intent is to have all mechanical components of the cars as they were in period (1958 - 1963). However despite the intent and the rule book, performance from engines has spectacularly improved. Period works engines that put out around 100 bhp at about 8000 rpm are today approaching 130 bhp at 10500 rpm. How much of this is down to improvements in such things as metallurgy (should you be able to use titanium parts when they weren't used in period?) and how much is the bending or "interpretation" of rules?
How do you question, say, potentially dubious head modifications made today when all the period heads have long disappeared?
Would a 30% improvement in performance from a engine be expected using the same period components - could these gains be down to improvement in such things as head flow technology etc?

Oldfart

11-11-2011, 06:15 PM

, for example 585HP F5000 cars (or whatever they make these days) reflecting ongoing inprovements in metallurgy etc.

It's an interesting argument if kept friendly but I can imagine could become very heated in the paddock between car owners.

If only some of them were that simple! I believe that some somewhat more exotic material than metal is being used in F5000 cars, and to me that is way outside, at least, the spirit and probably even the rules for the 5000. But someone is claiming to be making and selling these components. Not really their fault, but the buyers are probably crossing a few lines. It's a bit like complaining about the tabloid press, if no-one bought the things the publisher would not print the crap!

Murray Maunder

11-13-2011, 09:22 AM

If only some of them were that simple! I believe that some somewhat more exotic material than metal is being used in F5000 cars, and to me that is way outside, at least, the spirit and probably even the rules for the 5000. But someone is claiming to be making and selling these components. Not really their fault, but the buyers are probably crossing a few lines. It's a bit like complaining about the tabloid press, if no-one bought the things the publisher would not print the crap!

If these components being used now do so to overcome scarcity and costs or to improve safety then surely that is forgivable. However as always happens without really strict rule interpretations the chequebook starts to dictate the winner's circle. I don't know if I have it right but I had the impression that about a 20% increase in power was the major difference. I can see that almost 30 years of progress would find these increases through porting, metals, lubrication and detail work. But surely the chassis and most running gear is close to 70s spec?

Can Dale and co pull it off in HMC and keep the lid on it? That will be one to watch!

GD66

11-14-2011, 08:43 AM

I don't know if I have it right but I had the impression that about a 20% increase in power was the major difference. I can see that almost 30 years of progress would find these increases through porting, metals, lubrication and detail work. But surely the chassis and most running gear is close to 70s spec?

Can Dale and co pull it off in HMC and keep the lid on it? That will be one to watch!

I reckon they can. You've got a small group of hard-core enthusiasts, who have a clue.

Interesting to see you've included lubrication : I reckon this is one of the most-undervalued improvements in race prep ever. It's bloody good now, and by comparison still cheap to put fresh stuff in every race day.

AMCO72

11-21-2011, 05:50 PM

AMCO72

11-21-2011, 06:16 PM

Hey, I wonder if I could sneak it onto the grid in Oldfarts class. Do you think he would notice. Might be a little bit too modified!!!!!!!!!!!

RogerH

11-21-2011, 06:21 PM

This is interesting. The 'Custaxie' is for sale on Trade Me !!! Asking price $30,000. Whats going on here. Will be interesting to see if it sells and who buys it, and sorts out the COD compliance issues.

TradeMe link (hard to find as they spelt "Custaxie" with a "z" - maybe that's why it didn't get a COD :rolleyes:) : http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/custazie/auction-425725024.htm

It is perhaps a bit naughty to say in the advert "The famous championship Allcomers Race Car has been restored to it's original condition." as it implies it was the restored original car rather than a completely new built replica.

The seller is Robert from the North Shore - I wonder if Robbie is selling it?

105angria

11-22-2011, 12:24 AM

are there any bits of the Custaxie in this car ?

Eagle512

11-22-2011, 12:42 AM

...be only slightly an improvement on the glory days, for example 585HP F5000 cars (or whatever they make these days) reflecting ongoing inprovements in metallurgy etc.

Just FYI, I have seen the original dyno sheets from some of the F5000 engines around 1970 and they were WELL over 500hp. One Plymouth in particular was near 600. Fragile, yes. The top teams brought many sets of heads to each event and changed them nearly every session. I think lots of people said "oh, it's about 450hp" because it made the driver appear to be the the key component in winning ;)

Heck my car still has the original Hurst Airhart brakes. Last thing I need is more power!

AMCO72

11-22-2011, 12:55 AM

Howard Wood

11-22-2011, 12:59 AM

(Quote:It is perhaps a bit naughty to say in the advert "The famous championship Allcomers Race Car has been restored to it's original condition." as it implies it was the restored original car rather than a completely new built replica.)

And there in a nut shell is the main issue regarding replicas. A replica is not the original car, no matter how well (or badly) replicated and should NEVER be passed off as such. Possibly the wording of this ad gives a hint as to the reason for the issues/ controversy surrounding this particular car?

RogerH

11-22-2011, 01:52 AM

Well, you need to read NZ Classic Car....March 2010 [Vol 20 No 3] Page 56 onwards details what has been done. Seems as though some of the original body survived, but most had to be re-made. It appears that John Miller is responsible for most of the new work. Robbie and Co were trying to trace Tony Kriletich, who did the original car, as he had the best knowledge of how it was built, but for some reason couldn't get hold of him. The most up-todate feature that I can find in the present car is a fuel-cell rather than a petrol tank, other than that they seem to have been very careful to do the rebuild as close to the original as possible.......if you believe what is written, and I do. It's 45 years ago since the Custaxie 1 was out there, and although you think you might remember how the job was done, in real terms you don't. We shall see.

If you compare the interior photo on the TradeMe advert with a similar interior photo on the inside back cover of the 1967 Shell Book of New Zealand Motor Racing, it can be seen that although the layout is similar it is not a replica (an accurate facsimile). It is disappointing in that regard as it appears that it would have been just as easy to get it right as it was to not get it right.

The article in the Oct/Nov 2009 Classic Driver infers the original car and body were dumped and the new car was made out of a 1955 Customline - the story I heard was that none of the original car existed.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4615/custaxietrademe.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/155/custaxietrademe.jpg/)

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/10/custaxieshell1967.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/custaxieshell1967.jpg/)

105angria

11-22-2011, 02:18 AM

I agree if its a replica at least make it look like the car you are copying, that would be the basic Ist rule , is the Renault- Chev the real thing?

AMCO72

11-22-2011, 02:55 AM

I think not much more than the rear-axle is from the original Renault-Chev. Then all of this debate gets very mucky......how much of Kenny's Lola will be salvageable to rebuild into a 'new' car. How much of the Dickie/Doyle Anglia will be in the recreation........and while we are at it, I think that is a better term than replica for all of these cars. I say again....who cares....so long as we all KNOW what it is. Things like the Custaxie/Anglia etc etc etc will only be recreated ONCE. Unlike, say a Jaguar C type of which there have been probably 100's built.....some hardly distinguishable from the real thing, and this is where it gets mucky......these perfect REPLICAS get passed off AS the real thing a bit further down the track, and this is where the $$$$$$$ start kicking in. There is at the moment a REPLICA works Mini Cooper S for sale in the UK for, wait for it.....85,000 POUNDS. A couple of years back you could have bought the REAL thing for about half that. Needles to say it wont sell, in MY opinion, but you never know. Somebody in the Land of the Rising Sun might think it is worth it. Of course this is the reverse of what it should be with the replica being 'worth' more than the genuine article, thats why I think the guy is dreaming. April the 1st anyone!!!!!!!!!!! Anyway we need these recreations out on the track again, as we are not so inundated with entries YET that we can afford to be that fussy. One day we may be able to be, till then all these recreations liven up the racing scene.

105angria

11-22-2011, 04:00 AM

rogered

11-22-2011, 04:37 AM

He He He the great debate.This has been gone over numerous times for years and years.

The first thing that comes to mind is the bentley Ol Number 1.

The Aussie Group C-A chaps have this as best sorted as can be i think.
I think if you can provide a complete line of "history" warts and all, so it can be reasonably clearly stated .
"this is the car from new" through to "this is the "same" car as it stands today". :)

AMCO72

11-22-2011, 04:40 AM

Are you trying to trip me up here 105angria? Plenty of race-cars have been rebodied, and I have said before that the Mini is one of the easiest to do and replicate. For instance, the Coppertone Mini as it is today has been rebodied. The original was crashed and burnt. Still owned by the same guy who raced it originally. Is well documented that it has a replacement shell, but it is still entitled to be called the Coppertone Mini. I know of other cars that have been rebodied, and so long as everyone is keeping secrets no one will know. As I have said if it is only recreated ONCE I dont have a problem. Some of these machines are like Grandfathers axe......but so long as the panels etc are replaced AS THEY ARE DAMAGED that is OK, continuous history. It's when they are all replaced at once...ie rebodied....that the issue becomes a bit clouded. Think of all the ERA race cars in the UK. Some of them have almost nothing left of the original 1930's car after 60 odd years of hard racing, YET, they are still entitled to be called R4B, or whatever. I dont believe engines/gearboxes count in this debate because NO ONE would have their original engine without it having had numerous reconditions. Beowulf jokingly said once.....do they still have the original oil in the sump, water in the radiator, air in the tyres......silly, yes, but THAT is original. Your mythical historic saloon is NOT the car that actually did the business all those years ago but having been resurrected [another term] using some original parts, is quite entitled to be called the genuine article. Knowing that the Dickie/Doyle Anglia has a lot of remade parts in it's construction, will NOT diminish its worth or history in my eyes, as it is the ONLY one that is entitled to be called that.

RogerH

11-22-2011, 04:56 AM

question for you Amco, if heaven forbid you damaged the shell of the mini{back corner into armco]and you reshelled it ,followed all the details of existing car ,holes dents etc and put all the bits into car.would that still be the same car ,its not a recreation . another example, you found an historic saloon ,its been outside for 30yrs but its all there, 98% complete but the shell is stuffed with rust and not safe, you rebody the car seam weld it use the bonnet doors boot ,guards,refurbish all the running gear etc get it perfect to pics from the era thats not a recreation is it ?

Isn't it the difference between a recreation (or replica) and a restoration. A restoration is the re-building of a genuine original car around at least some of the major components of that original car. It may end up being re-shelled or having a replacement engine but it has always derived from the original car.

A recreation/replica starts from scratch with either nothing of the original car or nothing of any consequence from the original car. However to substantiate a claim of being a replica, the new car needs to replicate the original car not just pay homage to it. This is where I think the "Custaxie" had it's problems. It claimed to replicate the original car but it fell short of actually achieving that. That doesn't mean it can't compete but it turns into a retrospective special based on the Custaxie rather than a replica of the real thing.

There are grey areas but common sense should prevail. A recent example was a Birdcage Maserati up for auction last month in the US. It claimed the identity (chassis number) of a car broken up in the 1960s on the basis (unsubstantiated) that it contained some switches and tail lights from the original car. Apart from these switches and lights being generic parts bin items that could never be traced to a particular car, there was clearly not enough of the original car to support the claim of "restoration". It was criticised in forums and the press as a fake and didn't sell at auction.

pallmall

11-22-2011, 05:20 AM

Regarding the Custaxie, the original was long gone, but one article about the recreation did allude to original parts being used, which was not correct. They couldn't even get the colour scheme correct on the recreation, probably the easiest thing to get right as there are plenty of photos available, so it dosen't give you much confidence in the accuracy of the mechanical bits.

105angria

11-22-2011, 05:31 AM

Not a trick question Amco, in the course of the 2 year resto of the Anglia i had a lot of peoples point of view , the panel beater that would do things a better way, the cams guy that was happy as long as it had the original firewall, no poly bushes, no electronic ignition,allsorts, for me it was a case of not overrestoring it,patina , being true to the guy that built it,giving people a sense how these things were in the day, if you have good reference how it was [Group U you have to pick a time ] be true to its history ,re the one only recreation ,as an example Doyle /Dickie Anglia with Fastbacks reference id love to see the pre breadvan car with the stacks through the bonnet, but would have to respect Fastbacks view as he holds the car, but what a great pair and slice of history they would be .I may "own" my Anglia but its there to reignite memories and joy of a time that was freeer more alive exciting and inovative

AMCO72

11-22-2011, 06:34 AM

Now we are getting into the heavy stuff..........'.re ignite memories and joy of a time that was freeer, more alive, exciting and innovative.......sigh !!!!! We as enthusiasts of course can recognise all this, and keeping things as they were is important. Unfortunately, the great unwashed public who spectate at these events dont know, or care, whats under the skin, or even the skin itself. I had a fella come up to me at Hampton Downs and suggested that I put BIGGER wheels on the Mini, as this would make the car go faster!!!!! As you can imagine my response was not very polite. So we say, stuff the spectators, we know we are doing the right thing, but there is a big temptation to improve performance by what ever means, to make the car look good in competition with others, and you mention poly bushes and electronic ignition as examples. I get pissed off when I am lapped by 300hp Escorts, for instance, so perhaps this new classification started by HMC with pre 78 over 3000cc and pre 78 under 3000cc will work better than a decade system. I'm not convinced, but we will see.It sounds as though regs are much tougher in Australia....... maybe you have a lot more cars to choose from, and it could get that way here, but at the moment encouragement rather than discouragement should be the order of the day.

thunder427

11-22-2011, 07:43 AM

Shano

11-22-2011, 06:49 PM

I see the Custaxie is for sale on Trademe,except it's listed as the Custazie in the classic car section.

"The famous championship Allcomers Race Car has been restored to it's original condition.The car is still very competitive having won its ist race after restore.It's value will just keep growing.Reluctant Sale is someones Unique opportunity to own a Appreciating assett.No need to list details as many articles are available in motor mags"

AMCO72

11-22-2011, 07:19 PM

Sorry thunder427.......an unforgivable mistake. I will consider myself suitably chastised. Moving on, even though you say you were careful not to over restore the car, I will bet my bottom dollar that your restoration is 'better' than the original. Should I say the workmanship is better, because I cant see you doing a shoddy job. This will be the case with all of these restored/refurbished/recreated/rehashed icons that are starting to appear now. Just take a look at these things when they were racing, even straight out of the box, some/most were as rough as guts. We just used to think differently back then. The Classic car scene didn't really get going till about 1972, although the VCC was under-way, so beautiful restorations hadn't surfaced. Once a benchmark has been set then everyone follows suit, though now, overseas, if a genuinely original car turns up, maybe as a barn find, the message is getting across...... leave it alone, and do not turn it into a Pebble Beach super star.

Murray Maunder

11-22-2011, 08:11 PM

......how about we refer to these 'Iconic' Race Cars by who built them, then who owned then ,in the correct order where possible ,EG: Doyle/Dickie Anglia........picky!!,picky!!,I know but I'm trying to impress Our David Mac !!!!!....regards thunder427/MJ

NB;the 4 to 5yrs I spent building the Bob Jane Camaro encompased all the points of discussion so far,after considering that the job was to 'big' for me and that I should fly to Alaska before I rang Bob and told him I had failed the job/project, someone thinking outside the 'square' subjested, in a throwaway remark..." so which configuration are you going to build,these 'Bloody' things changed from one meeting to the next and sometimes back again"!!!!.....point comprehended, I went on to build it in the 'Spirit' of 1970/71, to which I left all 'hammer' marks, welding trails......I built it as 'Tribute' to the 70's and the ability and creativeness of the the 70's Crew , sure I've been criticised for possibly 'Over Restoring' the Camaro,but I can tell you it was built,not merely as an asset, but for People/Fans to enjoy.....the first time I had it on display at Bathurst 2002, Bob asked me why I had created a fence around the Camaro,I explained to keep the people of the finished article, ....his response was, quote,"Loose the fence,I want people to feel they can get up close and personal with the o'l Girl, she as earnt the right to be an o'l 'Show Queen' , don't you think" ??? .......had the fence down immediately and to this day I have probably done more damage to her, than her Legion of Fans.......let's not loose sight of the enjoyment factor in the effort to Build Pollitcally Correct 'old' race cars........and I'm talking about our NZ/Aust 'open class' vehicles ,not the Pat Hoore Ferrari type of Racer.......regards again!!!:p:):):):)

Another good point about the elusive authenticity claims. I know that the Bruce McLaren Trust's McLaren M8A is restored to a spec which applies to only one of the six 1968 CanAm races. And the car went on to be the "mule" for the following year's M8B winged incarnation and on down the line to be sold to privateer Motschenbacher and so on.

This discussion is really interesting but destined to have people regularly having to "agree to disagree". The rulemakers have their work cut out, walking a line between inclusivity, encouragement on one hand and exclusivity and strict adherence to originality criteria on the other side. Central Muscle Car became a very strong class with big fields and fierce racing, it served a need. As HQ bodies were dragged out of the wreckers and wrapped around all manner of V8 contrivance with all sorts of modern running gear the class started to lose most of it's cred as a real historic class. I stopped watching a couple of years ago and thought it sad that all the fences had come down. The inclusivity became the hole in the fence and the point for escalating costs.... but I digress.

Rod Grimwood

11-22-2011, 11:47 PM

The Custaxie very close to the original build. Mr Krilitich was found awhile back apparently and sorted the suspension etc. The reason i believe it is for sale is that Robbie suffered eye damage during the original Hampton which involved a operation and in reality i don't think he really wants to go through all the drama of "thats not how it looked inside", "thats not the original so & so" "can you produce this". He is a very good golfer as well. As stated earlier it is a long time since the original was built, and the person involved in most of this (re-build/replica) along with Robbie, is a pretty reputable person, and if he built as close too, then it is as close too. It is NZ motorsport history in what ever shape it is presented and i don't think the average guy is going to loose any sleep because it has different paint, interior set out, or what ever. One thing I will remember is the first time i saw it 40 odd years ago over the hill at Puke and then a couple of years ago over the hill at Hampton, both times sideways and going quick. The driver had alot to do with that and at least he has most of the original bits, and looks the same and sounds the same when you chat to him. PS Tony Krilitich is one very clever fabricator and engineer.

Howard Wood

11-23-2011, 12:42 AM

Rod, I don't think anyone is questioning Tony Krilitich's skills, he built a lot of innovative cars back in the day. The issue is; like the increasing incursion of red tape and paperwork in the sport or not, the COD, HTP etc system is in place to help authenticate "historic" cars and if a car has been accurately replicated the issuing of the paperwork is there to confirm that. It is not at all unusual or onerous for MNZ to request clarification or evidence to back up the application.

And having been issued (or not) with the correct paperwork there should be no argument from the armchair critics, the car is deemed to correct unless further modified or changed. However, the paperwork cannot confer "original" status on a replica and neither should any owner!

bry3500

11-23-2011, 03:43 AM

http://www.sharknose.net/

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240853

AMCO72

11-23-2011, 04:08 AM

AMCO72

11-23-2011, 04:19 AM

Please everybody on here, read the ferrarichat forum posted by bry3500. Some very thought provoking stuff there.

RogerH

11-23-2011, 04:38 AM

I have recently been through this COD business as you know. I filled in the correct forms, all 18 pages of it, took some lovely colour shots of the car, inside, outside, upside-downside. Sent them all off with the fee to MSNZ and waited. They eventually came back, all the pages and photos with a nice red MSNZ stamp on them, and I was given a schedule K classification with an A compliance, plus a little red sticker for the side of the car telling people that this was something special......an Historic Vehicle. The only trouble is that NO ONE from MSNZ has actually looked the car to compare it with the photos supplied. I have no doubt someone will at the Festival, but meantime I have got my precious COD. Seems a bit back to front to me......not that I am growling. If I change the engine specification in future, which I intend to do, I have to notify MSNZ that I have done so, and supply more photos , and more money, to verify the change. And just suppose that an MSNZ official finds that the the photos dont exactly match the car, what then. Perhaps, as Howard has said, some people HOPE that the paperwork WILL in fact confer 'Historical Status' on the car, which will very definately have an effect on the value of said car. The asking price for the Custaxie II doesn't seem out of the way to me. I'll bet it cost plenty if all the hours were added up.

Gerald, my understanding from getting a few CODs and going through the COD check process at meetings, is that there is an element of trust involved with the initial application. What happens subsequently, is that your car could be subject to a COD audit at a meeting it enters. The rules are that 15% of entrants should be COD audited each meeting but in reality it is much less than that. However, you do face the risk of having your car checked and if it doesn't match the documents (either through an initial "porky" or subsequent alterations) then there is a chance the COD will be revoked or the car will be required to be bought back into line. If the alteration is period compliant then all that is needed is an amendment to the COD form to record the new configuration of the car.

It is a bit tedious, there is red tape involved and it is not a perfect system - however it does attempt to keep some control on ensuring that when you go racing in an historic grid it should be against compliant cars.

The COD doesn't necessarily give your car the seal of historic authenticity. All it means is that your car complies with the MSNZ requirements under Schedule K. I am aware that some CODs actually note that the car is a replica - this happened recently with a well known Kiwi (ex F1 connections) who had an exact replica built of a genuine historic race car that he owned. The replica was given a MSNZ COD but it was noted on the document that it was built in (say) 2007 and that the original period car existed. The chassis plate of the replica had the same number as the original but with a "C" (for copy) added. The marque registrar in the UK was advised of the situation so it is noted in the official records.

RogerH

11-23-2011, 04:51 AM

Another good read is this thread on the replica (fake?) Maserati Birdcage that was recently passed in at auction after the owner tried to claim it was the real thing. The thread exposed the situation under threat from the owner of legal action :

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=149777

Howard Wood

11-23-2011, 11:14 PM

Phew, fell asleep a couple of times but Anorak power is alive and well. However, when that sort of money is at stake there is no wonder some people behave unethically.

AMCO72

11-23-2011, 11:49 PM

Yes, would still be nice to own, but at a fraction of the reserve. Where would a car like this be able to run? Frankly it is not much worse than a lot of RESTORED cars, except that this vendor was trying to bullshit everyone into thinking it was the real thing, with lots of the original in the rebuild. Took some reading through didn't it???

markec

11-24-2011, 08:00 AM

What is the Custaxie listed on TradeMe, under Classic Cars.

rogered

11-24-2011, 08:47 AM

[QUOTE=AMCO72;7085]I have recently been through this COD business as you know. I filled in the correct forms, all 18 pages of it, took some lovely colour shots of the car, inside, outside, upside-downside.

got some shots of it myself, upside down;)

AMCO72

11-24-2011, 06:16 PM

rogered......as you come from Hamilton, I suggest that you were at the 1993 Classic street race when Angus had an argument with a large earth-moving machine tyre.....and lost!!! I have a photo of the car on the recovery truck, but not one of it inverted lying wounded on the road!! If you feel so inclined you could email it to me so I can add it to the collection..........bentley6@xtra.co.nz

AMCO72

11-24-2011, 06:59 PM

Going back to Howard's use of the word 'anorak'. Not a description of a 'raincoat' we use here in NZ. Must have come from the UK trainspotting brigade, where these chappies would pass a lonely vigil, in their 'anoraks' to keep out the often inclement English weather, hoping to catch a glimpse of the Flying Scotsman as it thundered past pulling the 10.25 express from Euston!!!! Another one to cross off their list as they tucked into some hot broth from the thermos, and devoured a fish-paste sandwich. Howard used the anorak description for the car spotting brigade, and woe-betide any restorer who tries to pass off something that is not correct, as these characters will pick it up in a flash. My experience of these folk is that they dont actually DO anything constructive except to pick holes in other peoples hard work. Ah well, takes all sorts.

AMCO72

11-24-2011, 07:25 PM

Yes, I know. The 'anoraks' here will be quick to point out that an anorak is a waterproof jacket, usually with a hood, rather than a raincoat, and worn by studious or obsessive people with largely solitary interests.[trainspotters/carspotters]

Shano

11-25-2011, 01:11 AM

It's worth throwing a couple of wrong facts into something on the Autosport Nostalgia Forum to see the reaction. It's like throwing a chip to a flock of seagulls at the beach. And as I specialise in dodgy facts, all the more entertaining.

AMCO72

11-25-2011, 01:47 AM

Talking of flocks of seagulls.......birdwatchers, looking at both the feathered and the long legged, would probably come into the anorak brigade too.......'Dodgy facts'......surely there are no dodgy 'facts' in our hobby Shano. I must take a look at ANF.

105angria

11-25-2011, 02:14 AM

thats one of the great things on this site, your allowed a bit of an allowance for age, memory and bad spelling,plus a bit more of a relaxed down under attitude, Steve must be blowen out at the things that keep popping up here is an anorak different to a rain coat

AMCO72

11-25-2011, 02:38 AM

I'm waiting for Steve to lower-the-boom on all this non roaringseason stuff. Fair go you guys, we are supposed to be into meaningful discussions on halibrand diffs, top-loaders[what ever they are] and dodgy facts. But thats what I like about this forum, nobody jumps down your throat if you say something outrageous. Yes an anorak is different from a rain coat. A raincoat is worn by dirty old men with dodgy mechanicals, and anoraks are worn by obsessive people with largely solitary interests......probably one in the same thing. I seem to have lost the thread of this thread......which thread is it by the way?

rogered

11-25-2011, 02:49 AM

i will dig it out :)

bry3500

11-25-2011, 02:55 AM

AMCO72

11-25-2011, 03:07 AM

Thanks rogered. I presume you mean you are going to dig out the photo, and not your plastic mac or anorak.

markec

11-25-2011, 03:51 AM

My understanding is that Talley's fisheries have a big stake in it

AMCO72

11-25-2011, 04:18 AM

Come again markec.....what have Talleys fisheries got a big stake in...... the Maserati birdcage, the Custaxie, or anoraks??????

105angria

11-25-2011, 04:23 AM

what sort of races are the Coppins and Spague Zephyrs allowed to run in

thunder427

11-25-2011, 06:20 AM

.....when I told my Dad that my girlfriend was pregnant,He just looked at me with a cloud of disappointment,hands on hips,gave a sigh of frustration and said,Quote;"don't you ever listen to what I tell you,I said, if you remember ,that if your going to sleep with her make dam sure you where a 'Rain Coat'!!!!!!!!.........Jez!!! He seemed that pissed off that I didn't dare tell him that it got to hot!!!:(:confused::D:rolleyes::o....... :cool:Regards thunder427/MJ.......!!true story !

markec

11-25-2011, 06:42 AM

markec

11-25-2011, 06:43 AM

I should have said Brabham chassis plates can be bought new.

markec

11-25-2011, 06:45 AM

Both the Custaxie and the Dauphine, Mr Millar is an employee there I am told.

AMCO72

11-25-2011, 07:26 AM

AMCO72

11-25-2011, 06:14 PM

Ok, I should have looked first. Cars like the Coppins Zephyr will race in class 6....Pre 85 Invited open saloons and GT's.....which can include some of the old 'allcomers'

bry3500

12-02-2011, 05:59 AM

http://www.automotto.com/entry/replica-of-napier-race-car-resembles-the-original-every-bit/

AMCO72

12-02-2011, 07:03 AM

Yes bry3500, and the one in the picture is the REAL thing. I mean what is the point of all this......the replica has a bloody commercial DIESEL engine of nearly the same HP as the original 24 litre aircraft engine, and some turkey from Cummins wants to RACE against the real thing. Well you can still see and hear the REAL thing, and it is bought out on occasions to do demo laps etc, so why anyone, at vast expense, would want to build a diesel powered 'replica' is beyond me. If they had slotted in some old V12 aircraft engine in it, I could perhaps be a little more generous towards it but as far as I am concerned is just a publicity stunt for Cummins to show off some newer technology. AND, it is NOT a replica.....is it?

bob homewood

12-02-2011, 07:37 AM

Well with all the talk here about replicas ,how about buying the real thing ,Peter Bennett stopped by at work on his way through today and he wishes to sell his Lotus TC powered A40 Farina ,now here is a chance to get something that is a least very close to what it was when I raced against it in 67/68 and it has a COD etc,If ayone is genuinely interested either get in touch with Peter or get hold of me for his contact details,there can't be too many cars out there left from the allcomer days that you can have a chance of owning

105angria

12-02-2011, 08:51 AM

what sort of $ would something like that be bob $30k

bob homewood

12-02-2011, 08:57 AM

what sort of $ would something like that be bob $30k

I believe you are close

bry3500

12-02-2011, 10:39 AM

Eagle512

12-03-2011, 02:00 AM

This replica debate will go on for years, there are at leas 3 F5000's that have only the chassis plate as the only original part.New chassis plate can be purchased online,its not difficult to stamp them.

I've thought all along there should be an FIA registration process for "replicas", "recreations", and "resurrections". A chassis plate is not a car.

I believe FIA doesn't want anything to do with this after an expensive case involving a Ferrari parted out and then many years later resurrected as TWO with the same VIN.

Which is real?

AMCO72

12-03-2011, 03:05 AM

Getting back to more mundane cars, Fords! Isnt it funny that almost all the Cortina Lotus 'replicas' are of the MK I version rather than the MK II. Perhaps the builders of these things imagined themselves 3 wheeling through some corner like Jim Clark, in a beautifully controlled drift, or was it just the fact that there might be a monetary gain down the line somewhere. And why is it that the genuine MK I usually sells for twice the figure of a MK II.....the Jim Clark thing again??? This chassis plate business is not unlike the VCC boys who find a hub-cap from a rare, long disappeared car, and set about it's rebuild, and nobody to my knowledge in the VCC has ever challenged that. As someone said on here a while ago, a lot of vintage cars aren't actually THAT old. I know that a lot of enthusiasts search for years collecting bits, then when they consider they have enough to start a rebuild, or enough of the important bits anyway, they begin. The Maserati Birdcage that we were discussing was started with a few parts-bin pieces that could have come from anywhere, and certainly couldn't be traced to any one particular car. At least with most VCC restorations there is at least 50% of car to begin a rebuild. They may not have come from the same car, but probably from the same factory, and what was able to be made 80 years ago, can certainly be remade today if $$$$$$$ are no object. And here we get back to the value of the completed article. No one, I dont think, is going to replicate a Trabant for instance, as the end result doesn't justify the expense.

AMCO72

12-03-2011, 04:47 AM

Hey fellas, you had better be quick. The Custaxie II auction is underway with 'furious' bidding. Clearly it is going to sell....but to WHO ??

Jac Mac

12-03-2011, 04:57 AM

You have a funny notion as to 'furious' Gerald....No sign of that '''you are within 15% of the reserve yet'' that usually pops up on T/me so that means we are still at least $5k away, probably more, find out reserve @ auction end as we have bids, or will Robbie pull the auction before time....! oh the suspense the NZ classic racing fans must be going thru.... I wonder if Angus has offered a trade on both the 1100 & victor:):)... time will tell....

AMCO72

12-03-2011, 06:23 AM

Yes Jac Mac, 'furious' in inverted comas!!!! Now do you know, I am absolutely sure.....well nearly absolutely sure, that in the original ad which was changed, which spelt Custaxie with Z...Custazie.....that the figure of $30,000 was the ASKING price. Now it is the start of bidding price. I thought $30,000 was very reasonable figure at the time, and said so on here. Maybe it's my eyes that are playing tricks with me.....should have gone to 'Spec Savers'.!!!!!!!!!!

Kiwiboss

12-03-2011, 09:15 AM

105angria, previous Festivals catered for these cars when the 'decade' system was being used, but now we have pre '78 over 3 litres, and pre '78 under 3 litres. So the Sprague car should be ok, but where the Coppins Replica goes I'm not sure...I presume it's over 3 litres, but dont see it fitting in with Dales group. There will be something, but not sure what.

Gerald(an others) the replica cars like the Coppins Zephyr do pose a problem, so this car and others(over 3L) will be in the pre 85 open saloon group, at the start i wanted all "Replica" and others modified outside T&C to race in a strickly controlled pre 78 open saloon group but i didn't get my way(sorry) and as i have enough on my plate handling the current HMC over 3L group i didn't need any further work, so pre 85 it is and it looks like some older sports sedany type cars will run in the pre 85 open group which i don't think is rite(not my choice) anyway, after Jan we will have a better idea on how it all works out, but sofar we have 24 under and over 3L cars registered for our pre 78 class and more to come so i'd say we'll get a 30 car grid and if you race a MK2 escort atleast you wont have Manon in there as he's way to modified, he'll be in the open group!! As for the Replica debate, wouldn't it be great is enough of them got together for there own "Kiwi Replica" class, now that would be worth the watch!!

Dale Mathers

AMCO72

12-04-2011, 02:50 AM

Custaxie....she's up to $40,000!!!!!! Dont know who..'.ynottony' is. Not on this forum anyway.

CUSTAXIE50

12-04-2011, 04:27 AM

who told you he had most of the original bits.

CUSTAXIE50

12-04-2011, 04:59 AM

who was there this time

Jac Mac

12-04-2011, 06:31 AM

'Who told you he had most of the original bits'
'who was there this time'

I just love it when folk talk/post in half sentences, without quoting who or what they are refering to, really helps us understand what they might be on about...if anything.

AMCO72

12-04-2011, 07:42 AM

Jac Mac, I thought that was just me. I was/am trying to figure out what is being said here, and indeed what it is referring to.

Rod Grimwood

12-04-2011, 08:24 AM

It may refer to my post #66 at end, but still can not work it out.
Any way some one will have a fun car to play with. If only another 5 numbers in Lotto and it may have been me.

RogerH

12-04-2011, 09:43 AM

Any way some one will have a fun car to play with.

As long as they don't believe they are buying the original restored car ..... there is usually a value difference between the real thing and a recreation and there may be less events where you can "play" with a recreation.

AMCO72

12-04-2011, 05:08 PM

Rod, in post #66, you actually said that HE......meaning Robbie, had most of his original bits, sounded the same 'when you talked to him' etc. A clever play on words, implying that although the car may not have all it's original bits, the DRIVER certainly did. And this is a car that is inextricably linked to ONE driver.......one season etc.

AMCO72

12-05-2011, 04:32 AM

'The Great Replica' countdown has begun!!!!! Will it, or wont it. Less than 60 minutes to go.

RogerH

12-05-2011, 05:06 AM

'The Great Replica' countdown has begun!!!!! Will it, or wont it. Less than 60 minutes to go.

Interesting to see what the reserve is and what the unanswered questions are - wonder if they are anything to do with the recreation issue?

AMCO72

12-05-2011, 06:13 AM

bry3500

12-05-2011, 06:53 AM

Roger, will we find out what the reserve is? I am not familiar with this Trade me thing. And yes I see there were unanswered questions, well in public anyway, or maybe they were just unanswered. I wonder what will happen now. Was probably valuable for testing the market for a replica/recreation, although one doesn't know how genuine those other bids were. Anyway, it COULD have sold.
Reserve was 50,000 and the 4 unanswered questions were

whats up with slow,my wife always said to me slow is best. sorry to see you are selling it. custaxie50 (0 ) 3:21 pm, Thu 1 Dec

Good luck with the sale Robbie. A brilliant car from the best car racing era in NZ. Oh to bring back the allcomers. I recall you racing at Teretonga along with many other NZ car racing legions. fantastic. That is when you could build a real race car and it didn't cost the earth. Pity my bank manager today is a pain in the butt. den11 (74 ) 8:33 am, Fri 2 Dec

Just hope she comes down south, perhaps to relive a Waimate 50 !! True nostalga. firob (69 ) 10:18 pm, Fri 2 Dec

Robbie ,mate ,hate to see you with parting with that (Bob Homewood ) hitek (120 ) 8:26 pm, Sat 3 Dec

AMCO72

12-05-2011, 07:07 AM

Thanks for all that, now we can get on with living!!!!!!

Rod Grimwood

12-05-2011, 07:49 AM

Do you have the "recreation answers", hope you are not holding info back on the boy's

CUSTAXIE50

12-06-2011, 01:59 AM

I DO.

CUSTAXIE50

12-06-2011, 02:36 AM

I HAVE SOME OF THE PARTS FROM THE OLD CUSTAXIE, IF I WAS TO MAKE UP A CAR WITH THE PARTS THAT I HAVE WHAT WOULD YOU CALL MY CAR. A RESTORED ORIGINAL CAR OR A REPLICA OF THE OLD CAR.

bry3500

12-06-2011, 03:28 AM

I HAVE SOME OF THE PARTS FROM THE OLD CUSTAXIE, IF I WAS TO MAKE UP A CAR WITH THE PARTS THAT I HAVE WHAT WOULD YOU CALL MY CAR. A RESTORED ORIGINAL CAR OR A REPLICA OF THE OLD CAR.
well . according to post #13 on this thread, that would fall somewhere between a resurrection and a reconstruction......depends on the number of parts and what they are I suppose. What have you got?

AMCO72

12-06-2011, 03:30 AM

Dear Custaxie50, I am sure that with a question like that, you are going to receive a veritable avalanche of replies. Now, starting with your 'nom-de-plume'....Custaxie50, one would have to assume that you have an intimate knowledge of the car, or of CustaxieI, as I have been calling it, so you are either Robbie himself, which I dont think you are, or a person who has parts of the original, which was by all accounts stripped of the GOOD bits and the rest taken to the land-fill. I always thought that the rear half of the CustaxieI still existed, but maybe I am wrong, however if as you say you do have some parts of that car and you decided, for whatever reason, to rebuild it, then the provenance of CustaxieII, which has been offered on trademe, is called into question. In fact we suspect that MOST of Custaxie II is new, so that would make your replica/recreation with SOME original parts more authentic, wouldn't it? BUT, if you did that, and at some future race meeting BOTH cars turned up, there could be a problem. One has to assume that you offered the bits you have to the builders of Custaxie II, but they decided that it was easier to start from scratch. As to what you would call your replica/recreation/rebuild/restoration......well take your pick. But actually I dont think you are going to do that, so it is a question that will be forever unanswered, and I think you are just winding all us armchairs critics up. I for one am quite happy with CustaxieII. I know what it is, or isn't, and is no worse than a lot of 'original' cars out racing that are claiming to be something they aren't. Robbie built CustaxieII so you cant get much better provenance than that.

AMCO72

12-06-2011, 03:43 AM

RogerH

12-06-2011, 04:28 AM

It's just the old Grandpas axe thing, except all the heads and handles were replaced in one smack, instead of over a number of years. So in that respect there is no continuous history with the car, but it still does the business.

It may not be exactly like "Grandpa's axe". With a "Grandpa's axe", the axe always existed but with different heads and different handles from time to time. With the Custaxie, it appears that for many years it had ceased to exist only to be reborn in a configuration that may or may not be the same as when it originally existed.

With "Custaxie50" (which if he is the same "Custaxie50" on TradeMe is Norm from Manawatu) it depends what parts he actually has and what he does with them. If the parts are significant components of the original car (and can be verified as such) and they are used to build a car that really replicates the original Custaxie then, as Gerald says, there is a problem between the status of this car and the TradeMe "Custaxie" ............

AMCO72

12-06-2011, 06:37 AM

Well, we will have to wait and see if 'Norm from Manawatu' if that's who Custaxie50 is, will tell us what he has of the old car. If he does have some significant bits, then the CustaxieI did NOT cease to exist, but was just dismantled awaiting restoration/reconstruction. Parts may have been lying under hedges and workbenches ready for the big push to a race-car again! Now, there is another car in a VERY similar position to the Custaxie.....the Dauphine Corvette. Here is a car that is racing around today with none of the controversy that surrounds the Custaxie. As far as I know, only the rear axle and it's components came from the original Dauphine....everything else is new, yet no one is jumping up and down proclaiming it to be a fraud. Like the CustaxieII the 'new' Dauphine has been rebuilt by the builder of the original, and has also been 'improved' along the way....a 350 Chev instead of the original 327, Richmond gearbox in place of the Muncie, and a new/old body. So it seems that it is only when these things come on the market that problems start to arise, but I dont see why they should. For instance, if I was going to buy the Renault Dauphine, and fork out a lot of money to do so, I would do my homework very very carefully on the cars history, and there are plenty of anoraks out there that could put me straight. I watched both these cars competing at Teretonga early this year and it was great to see them. Frankly I dont care that they were replicas, just listening to them howl round the track, and imagining the skill of the drivers to keep the bloody things off the grass was worth it..... and the skill of the builders to get these things up and running. I watched the drivers get out of the 'cockpit' after each race and by the look of them they had been through the mill!!! They certainly add a bit of colour to the classic racing scene, and when a few more come on stream......Morrari, Doyle/Dickie Anglia, and others, will make exciting watching, and may even bring back SMILES to the watching public.......wouldn't that be great!

Rod Grimwood

12-06-2011, 07:11 AM

With you AMCO. Wonder if it was another car from way back, or more to the point some one else who fronted up with the custaxie, would there be all this carry on. As mentioned above the "axe head and handle" theory exists in a hell of alot of classics out there, but at the end of the day they are classics/history (old or new) and people are peddling them around for fun, Opps sorry, no such thing as "fun" we are all so serious. Lets all relax, sit back, take a big breath and think why we are really there. Lets not be so precious about it all.
It was great to see Robbie back peddling and either way regardless of how you think of him, he can drive. (and putt)

In regards to "parts" that is a big field. What are they and are they still alright or would they need "upgrade". Be awesome to own some of that historic car. A guy in Matamata has the crumpled front guard and weslake heads off Moffats mustang, along with numerous other bits from famous cars, so there is a bit of history in that place. (know it is not him as don't even mention Chev within a mile of him)

bob homewood

12-06-2011, 07:23 AM

Food for thought ,I have a whole shed full of bits that came from all sorts of Motor racing history over the last 40 or 50 years ,so what could I recreate from them it makes the mind boggle ,all I need is the time and money ,which I don't have ,but then if someone came along with the money ,how many cans of worms are sitting there ,that could be opened

AMCO72

12-06-2011, 07:41 AM

And getting back to the selling thing. None of these 'old heaps of junk' is likely to be sold off shore, not even to Oz, so I think that the history that they have now will always be with them. Is not like a Ferrari or even a F5000 which could end up somewhere other than NZ, and be misrepresented. I wonder if they had log books in their day, cant remember, but if they did, and they were still around ,could muddy the waters a bit. Yes, there was a bit of 'theatre licence' in the ad for the Custaxie, but the buyer would have come from NZ and would be smart enough to check it out. I mean all us EXPERTS knew about it. NZ is only a little place and word soon gets around. And Bob, you would never stoop so low as to create fake history......you have a reputation to uphold, and once that is gone, your the one thats history, not the car.

Rod Grimwood

12-06-2011, 08:12 AM

Bob, I have some thing you can hide some of your bits in. Santa deliver a nice little Twin-cam I have been a good boy. If I do the dishes can i have some new wheels. And do the lawns for some tyres. Bob I have the time just the other is missing at moment.

bob homewood

12-06-2011, 08:38 AM

Rod I'm struggling just to finish getting the one I have going ,I keep getting these inspirations ,but then reality kicks in,oh yes and my past is catching up with me on another thing I used to do,now I am being hammered to do some more of that stuff as well,I seem to be achieving less and the evenings are getting shorter

Rod Grimwood

12-06-2011, 09:42 PM

Stick with the car Bob, the other thing can wait (drinking with your mates, racing seats and getting lost in paddocks etc.)

Oldfart

12-07-2011, 06:22 AM

4769Is this relevant to the main thread?

AMCO72

12-07-2011, 06:32 AM

Oldfart

12-07-2011, 07:02 AM

The main thread is....The Race Replica Debate. Here we have a picture of the original Custaxie, with the question.....'Is this relevant to the main thread? Is this a trick question? If not, perhaps Oldfart could expand.

Not a trick question, just a not so subtle way to drag the discussion back to the cars. Cute little Mini beside it though? It would be "interesting" to have a similar photo of C2 to compare though. Wasn't the reserve affordable too?

AMCO72

12-07-2011, 07:34 AM

OK, thanks for that O.F. We do tend to do a bit of lateral thinking in these posts, and I am probably one of the worst offenders....just letting our thoughts drift along which ever way the wind blows. Not such a bad thing....amazing what comes out of the woodwork. Woops, here I go again!!!!!!

pallmall

12-07-2011, 09:51 AM

4769Is this relevant to the main thread?

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/1%20FE%20Race%20Cars/Custaxie.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/1%20FE%20Race%20Cars/350Quicke-mailview.jpg

bry3500

12-07-2011, 10:13 AM

Front doesn't look right..not 'dropped' enough...Also, maybe it's just me , but the distance between the front wheel arch and the door looks a couple of inches longer

AMCO72

12-07-2011, 06:01 PM

......and the #50 is in the wrong place. Maybe, but a blind man on a galloping horse wouldn't notice the difference. AND, there will never be the real thing to park alongside to compare....will there. It's pretty damn close with the time-frame between the two builds, considering the work necessary, and only memories and photos to go on. I doubt that Kriletitch and Co had any plans.....L.A.R.....'looks about right', and the fact that the new front is now fibre-glass rather than ply-wood, chicken-wire and papier-mache [or what ever it was] and the colours aren't quite the same, I still think they have done pretty well. Instead of having a nice round of golf, Robbie was slaving away getting this thing built, and he would not have been thinking that a lot of 'anoraks' would be coming out of the woodwork to measure up his new creation!!!..... Robbie himself, leaning on the car in black cap, and my old mate Jim Short with his bum parked on the front guard. Woops, hope I havent strayed too far from the main thread!!

bry3500

12-08-2011, 05:22 AM

Gee AMCO , that's opening up another can of worms...If you make a Replica of an iconic car, is a she'll be right. measure it by the thumb approach good enough in the recreation process..hmmmm

AMCO72

12-08-2011, 06:07 AM

Well, as I said, I doubt that the team had plans for the #1 build, and if there is nothing left to copy, then the reconstruction will be from photos, memories and 'common sense'. Do you not think that comparing the two photos of the car, #1 and #2, that they are as close as humanely possible. Yes there are slight differences to the inside and instruments, but they haven't shortened it, or widened it, or put mags on it ,though I think there was some talk of doing that. I dont quite know why I am continuing to defend this car, as it seems that everyone else on here, with about one exception, is not at all supportive of my stand. I have nothing whatever to gain from all this, except that having done a few restorations on old sports cars, I can appreciate the time and effort that goes into these things. I know what you are going to say.......why didn't he get it EXACTLY right from the start. I suggest to you, that if anyone else had attempted the rebuild, they wouldn't have got it nearly so correct, and unless you are over 60, you were not there to see it performing in 1967. So I rest my case.I shall just enjoy watching the car on the track, thats if it is still allowed to run, and will stick to my knitting!!!!!

Rod Grimwood

12-08-2011, 07:17 AM

You stick with it Amco. A point worth considering is. Robbie and friends built the first car. Robbie raced it. No one else raced it or owned it as a race car. Robbie and friends built (rebuilt) this car. Robbie raced it.
Who really cares if the front guard is 30ml longer (easy fix, just extend/cut wheel arch a fraction) It is THE CUSTAXIE in what form you want to accept it or not accept it. There is no other Custaxie built or raced by Robbie Francevic, wether it was 1967 or 2009/2010.
Agree it is not the "original" but closer than some "originals" i have noticed. Remember my garandma saying "don't throw stones in glasshouse's"

Rod Grimwood

12-08-2011, 07:19 AM

Now Amco, talking about "original" there is one in Mr Short

AMCO72

12-08-2011, 07:47 AM

Thanks for that Rod.....I appreciate your comments more than you can imagine. And Grandmas are a great source of wisdom aren't they. As for Jim, yep, when he signed up for the forum I thought we were going to get chapter and verse on the race car scene. Unfortunately, as I said somewhere in yards and yarns, he didn't spend any more years at high school than were necessary or legal, so his literary skills are not great, BUT if someone could sit down with him with a tape recorder and get him talking, there would be some gems of insight and information to ponder on. On second thoughts Rod, are you telling me to 'stick with my knitting' or 'stick to my guns' ????????

ged

12-08-2011, 08:10 AM

one from left outfield Silcock/millen jag, this is not the car that saved i from oblivian, out of hastings some years ago. wheels eng/g/box etc etc. i still have some parts from millen car does this mean i can now build the Millen car. Mr Johns has done a superb job in retaining a part of nz history. there is quite a story on this car after it was brought from A Dick and co,up and until i sold the car to Clive Gott. will post some photos at later date regards ged

Rod Grimwood

12-08-2011, 08:44 AM

Ged, what wheels were on it (the Jaguar) when you had it, do you have photos. As in here lies another little story.

Amco, Stick to your guns fella, and regards Mr Short, as mentioned in other thread, spent many an afternoon in a certain mower and bicycle shop chatting. He has some amazing history and knowledge, and as you mentioned he is not bad for someone whos 3 years in third form were his best. A top guy.

ged

12-08-2011, 09:33 AM

rod the wheels were off one of the trans am mustangs i was told. they were magnesium and caused me a little grief. but i had agood welder [barry morgan] who repaired them, we had no trouble after we addresed the problem of hairline cracks ged

CUSTAXIE50

12-08-2011, 12:53 PM

mmm-hi mr amco72,i know the old car very well,i am not robbie at all.i do have some parts from the old car,the good bits were removed after they had stopped racing it . the parts they removed were the 427 and the gearbox and radiator ,and put it up for sale you are wrong about the rear half of the custaxie i did not offer the parts to them at all. in what way am i winding you up i could build up a car that would look like the old car,there would be a lot of car builders in nz that could make up a car to look like the old car .just take a look in nz petrolhead ,i did talk to robbie at manfeild a number of years back that i was thinking of building a new car.OK IF WE LOOK AT THE BRUCE MCLAREN TRUST, one told me also at manfeild that i would not be allowed to build one, and would not be allowed to race it.the trust has a 1968 m8a restoration project in the hands of a duncan fox i understand. i understand a small piece of original fibreglass was put into the body moulds of the new car, and the rear bulkhead is repaired and most of the chassis and all the alloy skins are new. so if you go by there rules, all someone has to have is a small part from the old custaxie. in 1993 at pukekohe i gave robbie a small part from the first custaxie, so what do we call the new car--a replica--recreation--rebuild--restoration you tell me so we all know what to do. all most forgot--i understand the 427 went into a hotrod ,and the t10 gearbox was rebuilt and put into a muscle car for racing,so you could say there are a lot of parts out there from the old car.

Rod Grimwood

12-08-2011, 05:53 PM

Ged, the wheels were off Mr Faheys original Mustang and I was talking to Clive not long after he got the car. I believe Mr Chapman got them back for the Mustang when he had it in restoration mode.

I would appreciate any photos you have of the car as i sepnt a few hours on it way back then when Steve had it.

Rod Grimwood

12-08-2011, 06:06 PM

I am fortunate enough to have seen the Custaxie a few times over an extended time lapse. Each time on the track it has been Mr Francevic, and as below on the road someone else, so if another appears let it be, but they are not the ORIGINAL driver/owner (of either so far seen).

Heres another for you, The ORIGINAL Custaxie I believe when Robbie sold it was on the North Shore of Auckland and driven around by a hot rod fella for awhile with a flathead ford in it. It then graduated to a 272.I beleive it remand in hot rod circles for along time. Now let the researching begin. I think i know the said owner or someone who does.

Oldfart

12-08-2011, 06:41 PM

I find this whole discussion re the Custaxie really interesting, and having posted a photo which I took myself of the original, obviously I saw it race in period.
When I saw the new one somthing did not click. It just seemed less intimidating or something. Perhaps it was just too good/shiney? It certainly went like a rocket.
I am left wondering why the current owners don't get the paperwork sorted. Gerald has done it for his car, and intimated it was not as bad as he thought it might be. My memories of Robbie were that a finger in the air to the authorities was not unusual, and most of us at the time knew that, might not like it, but understood his position. Is the non-finalisation another example?
In a way it's sad, as the "authorities" are being painted into a corner. If they let this car/owner get away with it the floodgates open. If they don't then they are the "big bad boys" for not letting the car run in some eyes.
I am sure most would like to see such cars running, but if my memory is OK then most of them were very rough. My first memory of the McBegg was the amount of baling twine. (1960s cable ties?)

Jac Mac

12-08-2011, 07:53 PM

Stuff the paperwork, lets just build the cars & race them, the 'Paperwork' just creates another area for the revenue gatherers to skim money from, thats all..wont make the car go any better!! After reading Geralds posts about the build of his car it would appear that one of the more stressful times was 'waiting' for the paperwork on his car, the rest of the build was enjoyable..

Rod Grimwood

12-08-2011, 08:24 PM

Jac Mac we sing from the same sheet. I was not the biggest supporter of all the paper work (revenue generating) years ago and still feel there is too much. As you say, build them and run them, good for everyone.

I think it is great that "A" Custaxie, "A' Chev Dauphine" Etc appeared a couple of years ago, as younger fellas than us got a chance to see what it was like when there dads were starting to grow wiskers and were only interested in birds on Friday night to fill in time until the weekend.

bry3500

12-08-2011, 09:07 PM

Back in 1967 the Custaxie was the Bee's knees..I remember heading off to the car show at the Addington Showgrounds with my school mates with one purpose in mind,,,,Get as close to the beast as possible and marvel at this homegrown Mustang Killer.. One thing that has intrigued me however, is that I can't recall it as being refered to as 'The Custaxie'...We all called it "The Monster". Was I too young back then to remember the details correctly , or was the term Custaxie something that came along after the 67 season?
My comment regarding the accuracy of the rebuild was not meant as a slight against Robbie or the Guys who helped, I am absolutely delighted to see it in the flesh again....it was more of a generalized comment, can you Imagine the Tifosi if the 156 recreation appeared with a different nose shape for example,
On a final note, I would love to see the Custaxie, Dauphine - Chev and other Allcomers barreling down the front straight at the International meeting at Philip Island,,they would cause quite a stir I'm sure...

Rod Grimwood

12-08-2011, 09:57 PM

Bry3500, they sure do look and sound great, the ground moves and a different thunder to todays roar/screams. But any V8 sounds pretty good to me. And nothing wrong with a neat little 4 Ford singing either.

Jac Mac

12-08-2011, 11:58 PM

CUSTAXI was made up from CUSTomline & galAXIe, the two major parts of the car, Body & engine source

AMCO72

12-09-2011, 12:32 AM

Bry3500.......you are correct in the name of the 'Custaxie'. It was christened 'the Monster' by Kriletitch and team, and some times referred to as 'colour me gone'....the logo across the boot-lid. Was only a bit later that the name 'Custaxie' came into use, not sure exactly when, as it was 'the Monster' thru 1967........Source..1967 NZ Motoracing, where incidentally there are lots of pictures of it and the Doyle/Dickie Anglia and others. Also a good interior shot for the anoraks. And Oldfart is right concerning it's 'presentation'....rough would be an apt description....mind you it had done a few HARD racing miles by then and was showing it. Most of those machines...Doyle/Dickie Anglia etc, were scruffy to say the least, but that is how it was......no beautiful restorations/reconstructions/rehashes then.....they came 45 years down the track.

ged

12-09-2011, 01:24 AM

would somebody plse build a replicar of robbies fairlane big block and all. Like you say jac lets build listen and enjoy.Ibelive the young guys today love the look and sound. so lets pass on the skills and the enthusim that we have. i have heard Garry Rodgers make a comment that the fans like the historic cars almost more than the supercars. Its about having fun gedwould somebody plse build a replicar of robbies fairlane big block and all. Like you say jac lets build listen and enjoy.Ibelive the young guys today love the look and sound. so lets pass on the skills and the enthusim that we have. i have heard Garry Rodgers make a comment that the fans like the historic cars almost more than the supercars. Its about having fun gedwould somebody plse build a replicar of robbies fairlane big block and all. Like you say jac lets build listen and enjoy.Ibelive the young guys today love the look and sound. so lets pass on the skills and the enthusim that we have. i have heard Garry Rodgers make a comment that the fans like the historic cars almost more than the supercars. Its about having fun gedwould somebody plse build a replicar of robbies fairlane big block and all. Like you say jac lets build listen and enjoy.Ibelive the young guys today love the look and sound. so lets pass on the skills and the enthusim that we have. i have heard Garry Rodgers make a comment that the fans like the historic cars almost more than the supercars. Its about having fun gedwould somebody plse build a replicar of robbies fairlane big block and all. Like you say jac lets build listen and enjoy.Ibelive the young guys today love the look and sound. so lets pass on the skills and the enthusim that we have. i have heard Garry Rodgers make a comment that the fans like the historic cars almost more than the supercars. Its about having fun gedwould somebody plse build a replicar of robbies fairlane big block and all. Like you say jac lets build listen and enjoy.Ibelive the young guys today love the look and sound. so lets pass on the skills and the enthusim that we have. i have heard Garry Rodgers make a comment that the fans like the historic cars almost more than the supercars. Its about having fun gedwould somebody plse build a replicar of robbies fairlane big block and all. Like you say jac lets build listen and enjoy.Ibelive the young guys today love the look and sound. so lets pass on the skills and the enthusim that we have. i have heard Garry Rodgers make a comment that the fans like the historic cars almost more than the supercars. Its about having fun gedwould somebody plse build a replicar of robbies fairlane big block and all. Like you say jac lets build listen and enjoy.Ibelive the young guys today love the look and sound. so lets pass on the skills and the enthusim that we have. i have heard Garry Rodgers make a comment that the fans like the historic cars almost more than the supercars. Its about having fun gedwould somebody plse build a replicar of robbies fairlane big block and all. Like you say jac lets build listen and enjoy.Ibelive the young guys today love the look and sound. so lets pass on the skills and the enthusim that we have. i have heard Garry Rodgers make a comment that the fans like the historic cars almost more than the supercars. Its about having fun gedwould somebody plse build a replicar of robbies fairlane big block and all. Like you say jac lets build listen and enjoy.Ibelive the young guys today love the look and sound. so lets pass on the skills and the enthusim that we have. i have heard Garry Rodgers make a comment that the fans like the historic cars almost more than the supercars. Its about having fun ged

ged

12-09-2011, 01:26 AM

oops dont no what happend

AMCO72

12-09-2011, 01:44 AM

bry3500

12-09-2011, 03:19 AM

[QUOTE=Oldfart;7555]I
When I saw the new one somthing did not click. It just seemed less intimidating or something.
Sort of like Joe Frazier with a nose job ;)

pallmall

12-09-2011, 03:50 AM

oops dont no what happend

You can go and edit it.

pallmall

12-09-2011, 03:54 AM

Hey Ged, I know we are all a bit thick on this thread, but you dont have to repeat your tale 10 times!!!!!!! And, listen up fellas.....we may be looking at the THIRD version of the 'Custaxie' here. Apparently at a meeting in Levin in 1967, the brakes on the Custaxie locked up going into the hairpin and the car ploughed into the bank with such force that a... COMPLETE REBUILD WAS NECESSARY!!!!![contemporary race report]

A bit of journalistic exageration. It was fairly damaged at the front end, so the front probably needed a rebuild. With 1 or 2 meetings to go and the Championship wrapped up I doubt they would have rebuilt the whole car completely considering its history shortly after. I did take photos of the damage at the time, but they are no longer around.

ged

12-09-2011, 03:58 AM

pallmall im flat out turning this thing on

ged

12-09-2011, 04:04 AM

rod who built that jag. some very clever work, fiberglass doors / frames etc

Jac Mac

12-09-2011, 04:32 AM

Hi Gwyn, If you want to do the Fairlane I have the ORIGINAL front brake calipers from that car, The Top Loader case went into my Cortinas, might still be in the MKIV. But hey we dont need all that old stuff to build it, just buy a donor F/Lane out of USA & get stuck in. I think I might have suggested doing something along those lines to Jack Ondrack at some point, but he is happy with the TVR & reckons my ideas are too expensive ( tongue firmly in both cheeks:) ), anyone want to build it let me know, I have enough info on those cars to get it very close to right, only trouble will be it wont be as slow as it was!!!:)

Oldfart

12-09-2011, 04:38 AM

bob homewood

12-09-2011, 05:43 AM

What was it called? Well the photo I posted has written underneath in my 16 year old handwriting "Custaxie". This was the GP meeting, and for some reason I have an impression it was almost new at that time. I do know, without doubt, as I have a photo that it did NOT have Colour me gone" on the back the day I took that photo.

I will double check my photos from the first couple of meetings when the car ran at the same meetings as me ,but from memory the car was just plain white in the begining and the number 50 was just roughly hand written,so your photo is possibly from later on at Pukekohe

woody

12-09-2011, 07:14 AM

Ged, Morgan & Oshea. Barry was a great fabricator. Now retired and living in Wanaka. His son builds hot rods in Wanaka. The mighty TNT.

pallmall

12-09-2011, 08:48 AM

I will double check my photos from the first couple of meetings when the car ran at the same meetings as me ,but from memory the car was just plain white in the begining and the number 50 was just roughly hand written,so your photo is possibly from later on at Pukekohe

If I remember correctly it was just finished in time for Renwick, or maybe NSCC Pukekohe but unpainted and a rough number. I think it may have been the same at the first Levin meet of the season. The 'Colour me Gone' was a bit after the car was properly painted. There are a few photos in threads on here of the car in its rough state. Initially Motorman called it a Ford 7litre in the results and "an ugly 7-litre Galaxie engined Customline monster" in the race reports.

ged

12-09-2011, 01:16 PM

woody barry and i are very good friends i done the running gear a 292 y block chev pistons converted to fully floating pins. engine came out of starline
.a canadan option. we were only very young men when that car was built. barry still owns it today and has been restored

ged

12-09-2011, 09:38 PM

hi jac I came over to the canam thunder meet at ruapuna a couple of years ago,and there was a tvr tuscon racing. 302ford power very imppessive, is this the car you speak of

CUSTAXIE50

12-09-2011, 11:15 PM

re you the one who said, you know where the fairlane is in invercargill.could you tell me where it is, and can we get to it.

Jac Mac

12-09-2011, 11:58 PM

Gwyn...If it was white, yep thats the old girl.

Custaxi 50, it is not in Invercargill, I know where it is within about 50 ft horizontally & about 15 ft vertically, current land owners would need to be approached, I know the guy that was driving the dozer, & I know it was absolutely stuffed when it was put there & after 40 years of gravel & corrosion it aint gonna be any better now, it was burnt beyond easy recognition in the fire, even the front calipers took some effort to remove pistons etc due to heat, The Top Loader had been 'Number 8 wired' with bush's replacing the the layshaft needle rollers, really not worth the hassle.

Rod Grimwood

12-10-2011, 09:09 PM

Ged, to my knowledge, Mr McMillan from Metropolitan Cranes owned the car and had Dave Silcock build and run it. When it went to Steve Millen he did a few bits of lightening of some panels and changed colour from blue to maroon (i spent a couple of hours on it during this time). When Steve sold the car I did not see it again for years and that was when Clive Gott appeared in it. It had changed alot in this time. The next time i saw it was years later again when Mike bought it out, and it was great to see. That is why i would love to see any photos or information that anyone has. I noticed a couple of photos in thread "my images" so if anyone has photos/info please send to me. I had a heap of photos but they dissappeared/got lost years ago.

I think the Jag most probably still holds the record for speed and sound from the toll gates on the Auckland harbour bridge to under the Onewa Rd overbridge. This was a popular test in the days. The BM might have been quicker but no noise so doesn't count.

CUSTAXIE50

12-10-2011, 11:06 PM

to rod grimwood,the custaxie was on the north shore,-one night it went from the north shore to huntly and back as fast as it would go--and used a gallon of oil-that was a good night could not do that today, someone would be on there cell phone.you say it remand in hot rod circles for a long time .you say you know the owner or someone who does,tell all out here who you think this could be

AMCO72

12-10-2011, 11:29 PM

Rod, the person you need to 'talk' to is of course Jim Short. He will give you chapter and verse on this car.....good and bad!!!!!!!
Not sure whether you can persuade him to write something on here, but would be good if he could.

Rod Grimwood

12-10-2011, 11:50 PM

Custaxie50: I saw it in Wairau Rd. What engine was in it at this stage.
I am trying to contact an ex hot rodder from nth shore to try and find out what he may know about goings on. This was awhile back and not sure were he is now but hope to find out.
Back in those days, alot of cars were on the road legal/illegal at different times, and yes you wouldn't think of it now. Mind you back then a gallon of gas was only couple of bob so times have changed.

I was at a funeral up at Kerikeri on Friday and happened to see 2 brothers who had a bit to do with car in original days. They had a service station and a big boat motor. Under different circumstances I would have had long fact finding conversation, but this will hopefully come at later date.

Shano

12-11-2011, 03:17 AM

Urqhart brothers, Coventry Motors. They are still around. I understood they built the engine, and had a flattie called Miss Coventry III, very quick boat. Glenn Urqhart went on to win the class II world offshore powerboat championships in Guernsey with Barry Thompson. Glenn knows a fair bit about the original Custaxie.

woody

12-11-2011, 05:59 AM

Urqhart bros. had a boat Miss Coventry powered by a 427 SOHC. Would like to know where the 427 went?

pallmall

12-11-2011, 06:46 AM

The last time I saw the Custaxie it was powered by a Flat Head Ford V8, it didn't have the nose on that it raced with, and I think it was running fairly skinny wheels and tyres. I think this would have been in late 1969 or early 1970. It actually looked very rough, like a pile of horse droppings actually.

Rod Grimwood

12-11-2011, 06:58 AM

Urqhart bros. had a boat Miss Coventry powered by a 427 SOHC. Would like to know where the 427 went?

In a white Ford with a couple of stripes i believe for a year and then I am not sure, but hope to find out soon.

Rod Grimwood

12-11-2011, 06:59 AM

GeebeeNZ

12-11-2011, 10:16 AM

4824

A rather unhealthy Custaxie appeared at the Wiri Drags in Jan 1971 as reported in NZ Hot Rod Mag. I understand that the Custaxie body was later removed and replaced with a Ford Pickup

CUSTAXIE50

12-11-2011, 10:46 AM

hi rod, on this friday gone i went to horopito motors just north of ohakune.i went to look at all the customlines that he had there,not one good one left. he had a e type jag there so i had a look at the brakes on it,looking at them i would say not up to racing at all in my eyes.i got there late and had a small look around,will go back for a good look .there have been a number of old race cars that have ended up there,i have to say that i had the feeling that i could have just walked around and there it was.because the place just does that to you,because pipiriki is not to far from horopito and someone said that the custaxie end up there.

Rod Grimwood

12-11-2011, 06:41 PM

CUSTAXIE50

12-24-2011, 01:42 AM

do you know if some parts from the old custaxie went into the new car, allso do you know who were there to build the new custaxie.

Kiwiboss

12-24-2011, 02:54 AM

Urqhart bros. had a boat Miss Coventry powered by a 427 SOHC. Would like to know where the 427 went?

Woody, that 427 Cammer engine done the rounds, in the 70's it ended up in the Trevor Gray 68 KR Shelby Mustang dirt track saloon and is now currently running in the Nostalger drag circles in a old front engine rail out of Levin, owners name is Alex Hogg(i think)

I've raced with Paul Urquart, Glen is Pauls Uncle,have spoken with them all on several occasions about there racing exploits, all very interesting and great history, they have North Shore Complicance in Porana rd, Glenfeild these days.

Dale Mathers

woody

12-24-2011, 05:42 AM

May 1971.

45DCOE

12-25-2011, 08:03 PM

Custaxie50: Go have a good look, as you don't know what may pop up in there. Maybe put a day aside, as there is a bit to look at. Maybe some photos of whats there. Best of luck in the hunt.

Geebee NZ: Smoky Thompson ? was that Royden Thompson from "Purple Haze" fame and Thompson Performance in Otahuhu or some one else.

Think Smoky Thompson was AKA as Croydon Thompson, he use to widen wheels and build hot rods. His company was called Thompson Performance or maybe Thompson Developments around the late 60s or early 70s

Rod Grimwood

12-26-2011, 02:27 AM

Yea sorry was spelling mistake (R/Croydon). I was chatting to him at the funeral up here of the poor guy who died in the fire at Karekare Peninsula. I have known him for a few years. Croydon has a chopper up north. I will catch up a bit and will source some more info. I discussed with him because he made the wheels for Murray Soames that are on my Escort that Murray and a couple of others built.

AMCO72

01-07-2012, 05:48 AM

OK....replying to oldfarts post 169 on 'going even older'. Custaxie50 asks what was used from the original custaxie in the custaxieII rebuild. I have in my possession, a skite board that was used in the South Island to inform the curious public what the custaxie achieved in 1966, and how the custaxieII came into being. I will quote part of what it says..........' The custaxie was sold, and had largely disappeared over the years. When it resurfaced, it had been severely cut up and much was missing, however Robbie Francevic and Peter Talley purchased the vehicle to bring the legend back to life. They began with half a car, the back only, no nose or doors. Rebuilt it to its original racing form, including Borg Warner T10 gearbox, Jaguar disc brakes all round, and the original steel wheels'.......So there you go custaxie50, make of that what you wish.

Rod Grimwood

01-07-2012, 11:00 PM

do you know if some parts from the old custaxie went into the new car, allso do you know who were there to build the new custaxie.

As reported in New Zealand Classic Car March 2010 Vol. 20 No.3. If you can find read.

When eventually found, the car had been severly cut and much was missing. The owner had many Customlines and expressed an interest in restoring the Custaxie. When Robbie was asked for his help with a possible restoration, he apparrently said only he could do this as only he knew the car well enough to do the job.
Robbie purchased the car and Peter Talley and John Millar talked him into rebuilding it.
as Tony Krilitich could not be contacted, John Millar (Dauphine Chev fame and clever man) took over some design parts in his workshop at Riwaka. They began with only the back body. They found another donor car which was partly restored.
In regard to the front of the car help came from John Dobbie who makes fibreglass kayaks.
The inside alloy panels are held in place by tech screws instead of the pop rivets of old days. (also very much neater) To meet new regs it has a new approved seat and harness and extra bracing in the roll bar and for safety a fuel cell.

CUSTAXIE50

01-08-2012, 01:45 PM

to amco72 are you telling me this is a quote from robbie himself about the custaxie,looking at what you have said you dont know at all about the custaxie do you,you are just reading somethink that came out in new zealand classic car in march 2010 that someone has put up at the race meeting.

AMCO72

01-08-2012, 06:08 PM

Yes, custaxie50, all I am doing is reading what has been written on an information board that is in my possession, which is similar to what Rod Grimwood quoted from the Classic Car magazine. I know absolutely ziltch about the car, other than what I have read, and what I have seen. HOWEVER, you apparently DO know something, by all your comments in this and other threads, so why dont you put us all out of our misery and tell us WHAT it is. Please.

Rod Grimwood

01-08-2012, 09:18 PM

At the end of the day Robbie is the one who knows all and until someone can sit down and catch up with him, we can only go by what knowledge has been made available. If you do know more please share as this is a very interesting car and a big part of NZ Motorsport history. It is certainly not everyones baby, but coming from a tin top background is an interest to me. I had a very quick catch up with him when he ran the car at Hampton and again at Teretonga but did not go too much into the car as we were both busy keeping cars mobile. So if you do have info-share please, as we all have the same reasons at heart.

AMCO72

01-08-2012, 10:25 PM

Custaxie 50, I am not going to get into a war of words with you, especially on a subject I know nothing about. As I said elsewhere, your name suggests that you have/had an intimate connection with the car, and as this machine is part of NZ motorsport legend, we would all like to know what that connection is. You seem to be hinting..wink wink,nod nod, that you know something no one else does. For the sake of history, it would be helpful if you could share it with us, then we could all make informed decisions as to whether or not to reply. At the moment, all you are doing on these posts is requesting answers to your questions......'how do you know that'....'can you give proof'....'could you post some pictures'...etc etc etc. It is very difficult for the rest of us to have a meaningful discussion with someone who only asks questions. Dont forget, this forum is about 'give and take'. At the moment it is very one-sided.

jim short

01-08-2012, 11:17 PM

i have just heard from a reliable source he sat in the gradstand most of the time

CUSTAXIE50

01-09-2012, 05:56 AM

amco72 was it your boy who raced the custaxie at teretonga,i have put up on the roaring season alot about the time i had with the custaxie and kato and what i did with them. what more do you want to hear,i have told you all how i came to talk to robbie about the custaxie new and old.the day i walked into new world and picked up new zealand classic car ,started all this b-s-about the custaxie coming back from the dead. whats up with asking for some photos of the kato also.

AMCO72

01-09-2012, 06:11 AM

Custaxie50......My English teacher at school in 1957 was always berating me for inattention. This trait must be still with me,as I seem to have missed all this information that you have posted on this forum about your time with the Custaxie. So I shall now trawl back through all your posts, all 26 of them, and then I will be fully informed, and wont worry you again. So thats a 'big ten-four'.....Over and out!!!!!!!!

CUSTAXIE50

01-09-2012, 06:42 AM

you say you have just heard from a reliable source he sat in the gradstand most of the time,who are you talking about jim.

jim short

01-09-2012, 07:14 AM

I find it hard talking to alias names how about signing off with real name .then i will know how big you are? but then i love a good debate but nothing comes close to alans reply some ten yrs back when i told him he and his mate were to old rewriting stuff from thepast i grined for days

rogered

01-09-2012, 09:07 AM

Appologies for wading in here, but its quite simple.
With a name like Custaxi50 one assumes you to have a fairly close connection to this vehicle.
That being the casePlease Re read Rods post #198. he did ask politely.
Basicly, and for us younger folk, we missed the cars first time round, if you have something interesting to say, please say it.
I have read though all you posts and there are no pearls of wisdom as yet. just negitive vibes.:mad:

GeebeeNZ

01-09-2012, 09:53 AM

I worked with Tony Krilitech in the Bledisloe Building behind the Civic theatre at the time the Custaxie was built and raced. The Urquhart Brothers had their Coventry Motors Panel Beating shop in that part of Albert St now called Mayoral Drive and it was a place I frequently visited. Other than Tony the Urquharts and Robbie I am not sure where CUSTAXI50 fits in to the picture as after it was sold I was not aware that it ended up in the hands of the type of motorsport enthusiast who contribute to this forum. Like many contributors to this forum all I can say is CUSTAXI50 how about coming clean on what you really know and how you know it.

CUSTAXIE50

01-09-2012, 07:58 PM

i do understand there are some rules on the roaring season,but where does it say i have to tell you who i am. so your rules are you have to be some so called big name driver, shall we say who comes from auckland who was a winner in some championship before you can say somethink on the roaring season would that be right jim.looking back you say you have a so called reliable source out there ,who said i sat most of the time in the grandstand what a lot of b-s-all the best to you jim--custaxie50

Steve Holmes

01-09-2012, 08:51 PM

All right you lot, I'm not very happy with the tone this thread is taking. Lets not derail a good thread. I think it can be easy to misunderstand people when reading something they've written, please bare that in mind. Custaxie50 is correct, he doesn't have to announce his name, although reading his posts, I'm guessing he is the same guy who was featured in an old Autonews article several years ago written by Allan Dick, and who purchased the Custaxie (without the 427) for $300 from Coventry Motors, and used it as his road car for a while before trading it on the Kato.

Custaxie50, AMCO did not state he was an authority on the Custaxie when he wrote what was on the Custaxie info board, he was merely passing that info on. I don't want this turning into a shit fight.

Kiss and make up, and lets get this thread back on track!

CUSTAXIE50

01-09-2012, 09:09 PM

yes the car was sold to me in 1968,here we go again you say if you have something interesting to say please say it.you say you are from hamilton.first thing you have to do is stop,sit down and think--see if you can down load some old photos of the old custaxie that was raced in 1967.still sitting down-now what would a boy from hamilton do with this car.would he put a motor and gearbox into it go and put a reg on it--wof the car and drive it around hamilton, still sitting down ok have you got the old photos in front of you of the old car- let say you have- thats how it looked where i used it as my road car driving all over auckland down queen st all over the place-one night we went down to huntly and back did you not read this on the roaring season-still sitting down-still not interesting to you-still negitive vibes-all the best to you--custaxie50.

jim short

01-09-2012, 09:19 PM

Quite right thats what is wrong with the world ,we all speak different languages .if we all spoke the same we would understand each other.i really enjoy this foram got a iot of laughs .sooner or later you give your self away and the aiias is blown ,,but alan is the best jurno still when he winds himself up and no mistaking his style.

rogered

01-09-2012, 09:58 PM

Fantastic

How about you start again, ( without the percevied "large chip")
If you were indeed the owner, then you have a fair amount you can add. (please)

May be start with
"how i came to own this car.... etc etc.................

:)

105angria

01-09-2012, 10:02 PM

how did they drive these racears on the road without blinkers and lights etc ?

bry3500

01-09-2012, 10:31 PM

Thats what I was thinking Angria...how did you pick up chicks in that thing,,it only had one seat!

bry3500

01-09-2012, 10:32 PM

Maybe Cuxtaxie got one of those 'Dodgy' W.O.F's from the TaiTapu Garage..

CUSTAXIE50

01-09-2012, 10:33 PM

thants for that steve-what would life be like if we could not have a laugh and joke around ,to me its all in good fun,or has this allso left nz for australia.i do understand what amco was saying,i was not getting off my bike about it at all. lets have some fun talking about the old cars that were out there over 40years ago,may i say is it because i am getting old that each time i get home from say going to manfeild ,what a load of shit that was-all jap-bmw-mins small things that put you to sleep.

105angria

01-09-2012, 10:40 PM

Love the work on the Mcbegg fantastic ,what group of JENKS discriptions does it fit in ,? maybe the chicks only lay down in the Gustaxie Bry

jim short

01-09-2012, 11:03 PM

once again it works,,throw a can of fuel on the problen ,it expodes and all is well{i have it on good authoritee no one sat in the stand}

CUSTAXIE50

01-09-2012, 11:15 PM

i dont have a large chip at all, i come from the old school.if you are going to do somethink, do it right first time round thats the way to go thought life.look at all the houses we see on tv in auckland water water everywhere.

rogered

01-09-2012, 11:35 PM

Carlo

01-10-2012, 12:27 AM

I too would love to know what happened to "Colour Me Gone" which is how I always remembered the old girl as it took off down Craigie Ave and turned left onto Highway One during the one off Timaru Street race meeting and to what we now have today as a replica / restoration / re-creation

CUSTAXIE50

01-10-2012, 12:43 AM

jim short-mmm-i think there is a photo of you next to the custaxie at hampton downs on the roaring season,i had plans to come up to hampton downs on the weekend 20-21-22-january to have a look see.to have a look over the custaxie that i think was going to be there,but as i have been told has been sold to someone in wanganui.there is a car show on that weekend in wanganui allso ,and the custaxie could be there,it looks like the car will not be raced again at all,hope not will have to wait and see on this one.did you know its allans birthday on the 4th of february this year,no i have not seen allan wind himself up,ok would this do it i get my hands on some home made rum and we all turn up on his birthday, would that wind him up jim.

CUSTAXIE50

01-10-2012, 01:01 AM

to rogered from hamilton--i have put the story up.

CUSTAXIE50

01-10-2012, 01:16 AM

to 105 angria--all this went on 44 years ago,lights were fitted to the car front and back, thats all they said had to be done to the car for the reg and wof-there you have it.

jim short

01-10-2012, 01:29 AM

Man i only just reade geralds speile{146}ande in my defence i got up at 4,30 to milk 85 cows by hand a lot of the timethen pushbike 12miles to school were i did very well at rugby {1st fifteen both yrs }i very solly me not rite better .By thr way G. Fogg goes on an on an on he must have gone to school untill he got married. i heard from a reliable sauce he was nicknamed TUSY TARLER

CUSTAXIE50

01-10-2012, 01:29 AM

a bed for the ladys

CUSTAXIE50

01-10-2012, 01:36 AM

no bry3500--auckland

bry3500

01-10-2012, 02:03 AM

Love the work on the Mcbegg fantastic ,what group of JENKS discriptions does it fit in ,? maybe the chicks only lay down in the Gustaxie Bry
hard to fit the McBegg in on that list Angria

rogered

01-10-2012, 02:08 AM

to rogered from hamilton--i have put the story up.

Great:)

CUSTAXIE50

01-10-2012, 02:20 AM

you again bry35oo from MELBOURNE, thats right park the custaxie on the side of the road,that runs down the back of pukekohe and walk over the railway lines to have a look at the racing for the day--44 years ago and having fun doing it.i was told by crash from levin nz that the custaxie ended up some place in australia

CUSTAXIE50

01-10-2012, 02:44 AM

i do understand bry 3500 from melbourne, its called having some fun-shit whats that--mmmm having a laugh.

CUSTAXIE50

01-10-2012, 02:56 AM

to calo, its all there to read on the roaring season.

jim short

01-10-2012, 03:30 AM

i find him harder to pin down than a donkeys tail

Rod Grimwood

01-10-2012, 04:18 AM

Yep lets just get on with the real thing and let this settle,

CUSTAXIE50

01-10-2012, 04:46 AM

to geebeenz-- what more has to be said on how ,the old custaxie end up after they stopped racing the old girl.if you take the time you will see what you want to know on the roar season.so you know tony krilitech,--now they say he was the main man behind making up the old car.there are a lot who would like to hear his story ,on how he went about making up the custaxie that robbie raced in 1967.i for one would like to know what diff he used in the car,could you ask him to put something up on this car.

CUSTAXIE50

01-10-2012, 05:11 AM

now mr jim short,the fishing day is over for today a long with you others out there-as my boy would say its beer a clock time-and the news is about to start --so that will do for the day.

Russ Cunningham

01-10-2012, 05:43 AM

LIKE BEING IN A ROOM FULL OF OLD WOMEN.

Oldfart

01-10-2012, 08:49 AM

Time to step in Steve!

jim short

01-11-2012, 12:09 AM

may be but never drove at 120 mph with a trailer!!!!

kiwi285

01-11-2012, 01:24 AM

This thread seems to have run into a brick wall.

AMCO72

01-11-2012, 02:57 AM

It sure has. I think we have all given up trying to decipher the hints and inuendos of Mr Custaxie. What I would like this gentleman to do is to start with a clean sheet and a clear head, and tell us in PLAIN ENGLISH, that we can all understand, his involvement with THE Custaxie......not the replica...the REAL thing. Despite what you say custaxie50, you have NOT told us all that you claim to have....you keep telling everyone that you have 'posted on roaringseason. Well I think I am reasonably educated, and apart from a few hints, nothing of any substance has appeared on these pages. If you do put pen to paper, you will be our hero, as another important piece of the life of THE Custaxie will be down on paper for posterity. Do you think for the sanity of all the contributors to this thread that this is possible?? You could perhaps start with the day you saw the car for sale, then its purchase, your time with it, maybe some mechanical specifications, and lead up to the time you sold it....perhaps you can remember who you sold it too, and even the price you got for it, and it's condition when you sold it. All of this guff is priceless information to future owners. We don't care if maybe you wrecked it for instance, times were different back then and we didn't appreciate history like we do now. So it's up to you Sir......and remember, PLAIN ORDINARY ENGLISH.........I ain't holdin me breath.

CUSTAXIE50

01-11-2012, 03:22 AM

kiwi285 from cambridge--you are talking about the custaxie is that right- if so like i have said before-we need tony krilitech to come on to this thread ,and have his say on how this car was made up.there has to be more out there who know about the old girl.brian north usa has put something up which is not on the roaring season,if you look on the net you will see what he has put up about the custaxie.

CUSTAXIE50

01-11-2012, 05:57 AM

your back-SHIT- what does he want to know now---you are fishing again AMCO72--can i have a minute to go outside and look for a wall to clear my head--be back soon----do you think i could find that brick wall--no-so i tried kicking the cat-missed the cat hit the side of the house and fell over-SHIT-right back-now lets see what he wants today- give me a minute-shit-where is that beer i just had-good thank god for that because i will need it today.i reading what you what to know,MY INVOLVEMENT THE REAL THING-THE DAY I SAW THE CAR FOR SALE THEN ITS PURCHASE--MY TIME WITH IT-THE MECHANICAL SPECIFCATIONS TIME I SOLD IT--AND EVEN THE PRICE YOU GOT FOR IT--FUTURE OWNERS--FOR WHAT THE REAL THING IS GONE--YOU SAY--NOW-NOW AMCO72 YOU ARE STARTING TO FISH AGAIN-I THINK -AGAIN MOST OF WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW IS OUT THERE DEAR--SHIT-NO- SIR-WILL THIS DO FOR TODAYwheres that beer gone must be outside with the cat-all the best to you-CUSTAXIE50.

AMCO72

01-11-2012, 06:07 AM

Goodness me......how do I reply to that tirade? Well frankly I'm not going to. You've beaten me Custaxie....I give in. Just as well I wasn't holding my breath!!!!!

Shano

01-11-2012, 06:10 AM

Did someone leave the nuthouse door unlocked again?

CUSTAXIE50

01-11-2012, 06:32 AM

ITS ALL OUT THERE,GO LOOK FOR IT.

CUSTAXIE50

01-11-2012, 06:41 AM

SHANO--JOURNEYMAN RACER WHATS THAT -BOY OR GIRL

Jac Mac

01-11-2012, 07:24 AM

SHANO--JOURNEYMAN RACER WHATS THAT -BOY OR GIRL

Keep right on posting mate, then you might just need to ask yourself the same question!!...:) BTW, I asked my mate again if he could recall the new owner of the "CUSTAXI II", he did tell me, but damn, its slipped my mind again....

Powder

01-11-2012, 08:17 AM

....brian north usa has put something up which is not on the roaring season,if you look on the net you will see what he has put up about the custaxie.

An interesting post on another forum from 2008 that's worth copying here:

Hi,
I have just happened onto this website and found your quotes and attached photo of Robbie Francevic's "Custaxie". The most interesting things about this story / photo for me are; (1) The Custaxie was originally built in my workshop at Owairaka Autos, in Mt. Albert, and (2) I am also the person in that photo, the one working on the Custaxie over by the right front wheel.

Almost all of what you have said previously is correct, and Tony Kriletich was definately the "brains" behind this whole project.

The stories realted to this car are numerous, but here are just a few facts you might like to know about how it came about.

Firstly, the 427 was originally brought into NZ by the Urghart ?Brothers (Coventry Motors was down in Albert St at that time) as a "Marine" motor - as the Import Duties on all AUTO parts at that time was HUGE - whereas "Marine" items incurred no Import Duty. The 427 was initially installed into a ski-boat and run up and down the Waitamata Harbour for a while, this to ensure we met the "letter of the law." The 427 was then removed from the boat, stripped, reworked and prepared for its new life in the Custaxie and on the racing circuits of NZ.

As for the famous Custaxie itself - the old 1955 Customline was totally stripped, all the better to build all the new suspensions, brakes and other mods required. The body itself (from the firewall back) had 2 x Five inch square holes cut in the lower, outer front edge of the firewall - with matching ones in the rear seat walls. The body (which normally sits on TOP of the chassis) was then "threaded" back onto the 5 inch box chassis of the Customline from ther rear - and then bolted up onto the chassis from underneath. The instant effect was to lower the whole body by about six inches - thus minimize the frontal area without losing any of the internal height - as Robbie was a very tall boy - and so we needed all the head-room we could get.

We expected BIG things from those E-Type Front Disc brakes we had managed to procure - but the truth was (although we never told anyone at the time) they never did work very well at all - and it was only because of Robbie's talent and determination that he managed to keep the "Beast" on the island as much as he did (although he did manage to have a few excursions off during the season ;-)

That same photo also has a "Breadvan" Angila next to it, I believe - and it could even be Jack Nazer's old Yellow Submarine. We also took over that vehicle after Jack had rolled it (down at Levin, I think it was) and, when Jack's wife then would not let him drive any more, we took it over, rebuilt it and then Robbie raced that one for us too for a season.

At that same time we were also sponsoring Brian Marshall in his Owairaka Auto's A 40 Farina - as Brian worked for me at that time too. We were also the tow team for Jimmy Clark and Lotus in those "heady" days too - as our "Owiraka Autos" racing colour scheme and trailers perfectly matched the Lotus colour scheme at that time too - and, with John W. Andrew being the Ford agent (Lotus Ford) - all preparation was done down at their facilities. We were close friends with that company too and so it was a tight little group.

I have numerous stories about Jimmy Clark, Jackie Stewart, Jim Boyd and others, but won't go off there right now - other than to say I was there when Jimmy Clark was offered a drive in the Lycoming by Jim Boyd. Since Clark had even driven F 700 Ford trucks around tracks (there was nothing he wouldn't drive) he accepted - and off he went. On the second lap, Jimmy Clark equalled Boyd's BEST time ever at Puke - and so as Jimmy Clark came around for the third lap (and well inside Boyd's best time ever) Jim Boyd jumped up and ran out into the middle of the track and waved Jimmy Clark to immediately stop - and this before Clark had finished that record setting third lap too. For me, that was both Jimmy and Jim at their "raging" best. Shortly after that I actually ended up marrying the new receptionist from Boyd's office.

Of all the memories of have of that time, I must say the joy of working with Tony Kriletich and Robbie Francevic were the highlights for me. Tony was a "brilliant" self-taught designer / engineer and yet very humble about his achivements and still willing to listen to other points of view too.

I consider Robbie to be a very generous, a very special person. I have seen times when he should have been getting ready to race or help resolve a "problem" and yet he would take the time to meet and talk with young children (or other similar "non-business" and/or "relatively unimportant" people) and yet he would give them his virtual undivided attention. This was, indeed, a rare gift I have seldom seen in other people - especially in celebrity icons like he became - and this is from someone who used to travel 200 days a year, six times around the world a year - and so I have seen and met many, many people - but have still never seen someone as generous with their time as Robbie was with his. In fact, I have tried to emulate Robbie's humility, manners and mannerisms into my own life - but I just know I have not come close to doing like he did then.

One final story - and it concerns the old "Tune - Meister," Ted Thompson. Ted was virtually deaf - and always walked around with his "Listening Scope" around his neck. Whenever you asked Ted anything, you would usually have to repeat it several times to get him to understand it properly. One day he came into Maxted Motors (I used to work there too before starting Owairaka Autos) to collect a jon we were doing for him. When Ted asked how much - we "whispered" you can have this one for FREE. Tes immediately said, Thanks very much, picked up the job, tuned on his heel and walked out. The loss of income we suffered has surely been made up by all the laughs we have had on that one instance since - and here I am nearly 45 years later still getting value from it.

I LIVED for motor racing at that time and so, when I moved to California in 1982 - I was sure I would attend many race meets up here. In 25 years, however, I have not attended one meet - with the only exception being I sometimes attend a "Classics" Race Day over at Coronado - where all the "Oldies and Goodies" strut their stuff. I guess its like they are almost taking me back to the era we are talking of here.

Not sure how this transmits - so if you do want to contact me on anything here - you can get me at

Brian33North@cox.net

Blessings to YOU

Brian North