Going Even Older!!!

[Oldfart]

Following on the success of the Roycroft Trophy which was held at Easter, hosted by the Waitemata Branch of the Vintage car Club of NZ, there is to be another meeting in 2012.
As a way of getting even more on track there is a plane to have Vintage Racing Saloons. To comply with Vintage rules these must be pre Dec 31st 1960, and only modifications which could have been done in the period are allowed. There are more "guidelines" anyone interested PM me and I will be happy to send out the current thoughts. Specifically Minis and 105e are not allowed. Yes we know they were first produced in 1959, but the aim is to have fun, there are no prizes (all right, possibly lemons for the total wallys) and the 2 cars mentioned before would likely kill the class before it started.
Think, 2.4 Jag, A35, A40, Zephyr, Morris Minor, DKW, Auto Union, Light 15, Peugeot 203 all on period tyres, slipping and sliding for the pure fun. Got the idea?

[AMCO72]

Great idea Oldfart. You say Minis and the 105E are out, BECAUSE they would clean up. Point taken. In the few models you list that are OK, one, the Zephyr is going to be the one to clean up here!!!!!! What about an MG 1100 ? The ado16 shape may JUST scrape in. Happy to hear your thoughts on all this. Should be a bit like Dale Mathers and his muscle cars...get TOUGH with regs. NO excuses!!! The hot shot boys can go 'jump in the lake'.

[AMCO72]

More.......Road registered and WOF ??? Rollbars ? Full harness seat belts ?? Glass in doors and rear screen ?? Alloy panels ?? etc etc etc. ie. what EXACTLY are we going to be allowed to do.

[bob homewood]

Now this is sounding ok ,could be a trip back down memory lane if the cars are kept period as we raced them ,before seam welding etc ,actually 1959 might have been a better cut off on paper ,but tell me more ,if I can help let me know

[AMCO72]

It would be lovely to think we could drag the old side-valve Morrie out from under the trees, stick some gas in the tank, and go racing. But this is not going to happen. The old days of production car racing with crappy old brake linings, poor cooling systems, and such was a great leveler...big ,heavy, relatively powerful cars paid a big price for lots of stopping....hence the little guys often did ok......like the Riley 1300 we were talking about in another thread. But everyone will be pushing the boundaries as hard as they can go....you can betcha boots on that. The reason I asked about the MG 1100 was that I still have the car that I raced after the Amco Mini in Classic racing way back in 1987. She was/is a heavy old thing, and was like driving a old LIP Vauxhall compared to the Mini BUT a load of laughs on the track.......used to do 55 second laps of old Taupo....but I was a lot younger then. So Oldfart.....get this off the ground.....I might be tempted. But Bob, what are you going to drive, being a dyed-in-the-wool Anglia man???????

[bob homewood]

Gerald,
Well I was a Chev coupe man,A30 ,A40 and Humber 80 man before the Anglias ,hows that for a mixture ,guess the A40 of the Farina type would make the most sense ,although in the past ,I had a bit of a interest in the Peugeot ,they had a interesting head design that lent itself to doing interesting things,you know me always looking for a challenge

[bob homewood]

Mind you I was a bit worried when I saw the title I was conjuring up Austin 7.Morris 8 and sit up and beg Fords etc

[AMCO72]

And dont tell me you wouldnt come out of retirement Bob. Holy-smoke, I can see you with a grin from ear to ear wheeling some inappropriate machine round HD. Actually that was the beauty of old Taupo, no LONG straights so the horse-power boys didnt get away from you. How I miss that little track, and the steak sandwiches at the after race function. Can still smell the onions cooking!!!!! Probably wouldnt be allowed to have a barbeque running now.....might pollute the atmosphere. Like the fun stories on yards and yarns....we didn't know we were alive. Whoa......lateral thinking again.....this idea of Oldfarts sounds better by the minute. Go for it!!!

[AMCO72]

See, told you Bob, you are already planning your strategy, and which machine is going to reward you with all the hard work you will be putting in.

[bob homewood]

Gerald this story probably belongs in the Y and Y ,but talking of inappropiate vehicles reminds me of when I built up my KE10 Corolla and turned up at Manfield with it,I overheard some one saying to his mate some w***** is going to race this ,wonder what he thought when not only did the W***** race it but he ended up second in his class next day ahead of a lot of more fancied and conventional cars,but then I guess I also did use what was basically a modified CF Bedford motor in my Sports car for a couple of season,no you can't beat something a bit different

[bry3500]

Nice idea guys..I'm imagining a field of cars something akin to the Goodwood revival St Marys Trophy race, Saloons between 1950 and 1959..must be a few of those old Brit cars still lurking around over there in kiwiland

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ-BdhKwBpQ&feature=relatedf

[bob homewood]

Now the Borgward thats another one that has always intrigued me ,if you remember they used those engines albeit highly modified in F2 up against the Climax etc

[AMCO72]

Yes, and doesn't that A95 or 105 go like stink. Doesn't handle too badly either. A big lusty 6 cylinder engine....could tune it to Austin Healey 3000 spec. God here we go already. You might be busy finding a Borgward Bob. When I was at school, I used to baby-sit for a Doctor, and he used to take me home in his Borgward Isabella..... think it had column change.

[bry3500]

That Martin Brundle driven A35 goes like stink as well.....

[bob homewood]

When I sold the Lotus Cortina I had about fifteen years ago I must confess I searched the clasifieds loking for a Borgward ,yes the itch was there to do something different ,but in the end I spent the money on a dyno instead

[Kiwiboss]

A class like this wouldn't be out of the question!! the age generation that would probably race these cars would/should at least be more sensable and educated as not to over modify or over drive such vehicles!! but race them purely for the entertainment value, infact one may have to start a series championship to make these guys drive harder and faster!! LOL, LOL and lets face it, the younger kids might like it as well because hell!! where do you see a Borgward these days!! they wouldn't even know what one was, at 51 i only just do, LOL.

PS: You may have to have a "Grandson" clause to stop younger drivers taking the wheel, LOL(now im been a smartass, sorry)

Dale Mathers
HMC Director(and hatchet man)

[bob homewood]

I expect Ellis will be on here soon ,reminding us about the FJ Holden ,now that would be another great choice and a even bigger reason to catch up with Ellis at Baskerville and see some in the flesh first hand ,thats some thing else on my to do list at the mement
The no Grandson thing sounds good as well Dale

[Oldfart]

Thoughts for Vintage Racing Saloons.

The following is some thoughts for debating so that a set of “Guidelines” could be put in place so that potential participants are aware of the “spirit” which others take part under.
It is NOT my intention to state what these must be, but I feel very strongly that a framework should be in place before problems arise.
In order to start discussion I have penned some thoughts, please feel free to discuss, add, delete or amend. In this way I think that a robust and fun class could be in place in a short time.

Cars.
The car to be a production saloon which was in production prior to December 31 1960. Onus of proof of this rests with the owner. Variants of saloon, ie staion wagon are acceptable, sports version (non saloon) are not. Cabriolet and coupe ??
Body modifications, ie chop tops, channeling, tail chops etc are specifically banned. The car shall have a full complement of seats as sold, although the drivers’ seat may be replaced with an alternate with better support. Current “wing” seats are discouraged.
Bumpers shall be in place.
Hubcaps are not required.
All lights should be in place, headlights taped (as was done and required in period).These must be in working condition.
External trim strips, ie chrome etc. PLEASE DISCUSS, my personal feeling is they should not be compulsory, as in period they were often asked to be removed for safety, also an item that may be difficult and expensive to find.
Floor mats/carpets, I do not think they should be required, but if removed the floorpan should be a subtle colour so it is not too obvious.
Steering wheel should be of the period.
Instruments must be period, ie no digital, shift lights etc.
Roll over protection. A thorny one. I suspect there are varied views on this. Up to the individual?

Engine
To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion. Ie one off engine transplant is not acceptable, but where this was not uncommon would be allowed. Onus of proof as above.
Modifications to the engine.
Only modifications which could have and were been done in the period (pre Dec 60) are acceptable. This one is a can of worms, but should be, I believe the basis of the “rule”.

Suspension
Shall remain in the same form as when sold new. If the car was fitted with lever arm shocks, they must remain as the only form of shock. Likewise lever arms which form suspension arms. Cars may be lowered by no more than 50mm. Springs may be modified in stiffness, number of leaves etc. Axle location should remain the same as original, but additional members may be added, ie panhard rods, Watts linkages, tramp bars, as long as the primary location remains. Test of this to be detach one end of any rod and the car remains suspended. Alternate on lowering, to be road legal.

Brakes
Must remain in the same form as originally sold. Ie if sold with drum brakes, no conversion to discs is allowed. Brake scoops, ventilated back plates, Alfin type drums are allowed. Brake lining material is free. Conversion from rod or cable to hydraulic is acceptable. A secondary form of braking is recommended, even if it is only handbrake.

Wheels
Must be of a size which could have been fitted in the period. This automatically means that widened wheels are not acceptable as this process was not in place until later in the 60s. Alternate wheels, eg van versions, 13” rims on original centres, Vauxhall wheels on Ford 10, wheels from a later version (pre 60) are acceptable
Tyres
Must be of no lower profile than 65 series, road tyres. Ie no race or semi race tyres are allowed. They should be available readily without specialist suppliers.

Presentation
The car should be presented to a reasonable standard. The spectator should be able to expect to see cars of reasonable standard, no primer, dents etc unless sustained at the same meeting, although contact between cars would result in questions being asked of both parties.

EXTRA
It has been suggested that a car having been allowed at one meeting does not, as of right, qualify for any other. Additional restrictions may become needed as the use of these cars becomes more common. All modifications should be reversible without disagreement, discussion is fine, argument is not!

Now here you go for something to move forward. Please do not accept the UK rules, they allow way too much, ie 1275cc in 58 cars etc.

I am thrilled with the enthusiasm!

[bry3500]

I'm thinking the only concessions should be for safety.. (Roll cage, race seats, harness, fire extinguisher system, cut out switch etc)

[bob homewood]

Quick glance that looks like a good basis,might sound like a stupid comment fron one who makes his living modifying cars ,but don't open the flood gates on modification ,period stuff or properly documented proof is a good starter ,no one offs or pipe dream allowances I have seen every form of saloon car racing destroyed by that,might have to just think on the wheels a bit from the safety angle ,I think the type of tyres needs a good think as well ,but its interesting you have got me looking

[bry3500]

Bob...how about a Borgward Fliessheck 2400s for starters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZujgzvNMKc

[bob homewood]

My goodness a fast back Vanguard !

[Oldfart]

Remember this runs under Vintage rules. Motorsport do not have involvement in any way as long as it complies. All cars need to have VIC which comes from VCC and all drivers need to have a vintage race licence. Yes more documents, they cost approx $35 for 3 years!

[AMCO72]

I have an idea. This class is ONLY for pensioner age drivers. These guys are of course MUCH more sensible than younger fellows.....except when they get behind the wheel. !!!!. No, seriously, you are right that this is a class that would attract an "older" driver. Bob was mentioning wheels in a safety aspect of racing....so what about mag wheels? When I raced the MG 1100 in the BMC series in 1986/7 it had mag wheels, and although I generally came last in every race, despite the efforts of the handicapper, I actually finished the series in 7th spot, if only because I attended every meeting, which some of the others did not. Didn't have a roll-bar then either, but that was the old days. We struggled to get a good grid of cars then so the rules were fairly flexible, well perhaps not flexible, but we were ENcouraged, rather than DIScouraged.

[AMCO72]

Anyway ,the MG 1100 is out as the ado16 range did not appear till 1962, so I will have to have a rethink. Pity, as it was fun to drive and sort of looked the part, despite the sniggers I got from some my more wealthy fellow racers. Am just raking my brains for some inspiration as to a suitable vehicle....would have to be English....cant stand those funny foreign jobs as you know from my comments in Yards & Yarns. Shivers Bob, I can see you getting some business here modifying cylinder heads, and you will be so busy that you wont have time to race.

[Jac Mac]

I can think of a few guys who might be up for something like this; Re the driver eligibility, simple, you have to have been born before the cutoff date for the cars, ie before 1960, or like the vintage car rules with the ** year old thing. that would work better, so today we would need to be 51 years old, make it simple & the age is 50 or higher so each year you get a fresh crop of eligible drivers [ by attrition a certain number exiting out the top end of the age pyramid...... dont ask me how your going to stop the cheating though, your going to be reintroducing a heap of guys who have all these demon tweaks running around in the old brain, thats why Bob probably needs a borgward, has probably found the crank from an Isuzu diesel will fit in it!!! Oh its gotta be non contact...I hate doing bodywork...

Car, 55/57 T-Bird sounds good to me

For the borgward candidates.. T/Me auction # 405654339...1957 Isabella, ... no excuses now!!:)

[Ellis]

I expect Ellis will be on here soon ,reminding us about the FJ Holden ,now that would be another great choice and a even bigger reason to catch up with Ellis at Baskerville and see some in the flesh first hand ,thats some thing else on my to do list at the mement
The no Grandson thing sounds good as well Dale

Bob
This Class....Good ideas...Go for it..... and there must still be a few old Humpies in NZ.
Spare bits are drying up for all these old clunkers, thats the only drawback.
See you at Baskerville then. Supposed to be there for a 2 day meeting this weekend
but still waiting for a couple of (gold plated) head gaskets.

Ellis
Baskerville Humpy display laps 2009
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpZ2w-B63EI

[bob homewood]

I can think of a few guys who might be up for something like this; Re the driver eligibility, simple, you have to have been born before the cutoff date for the cars, ie before 1960, or like the vintage car rules with the ** year old
For the borgward candidates.. T/Me auction # 405654339...1957 Isabella, ... no excuses now!!:)
Actually looking on the serious side at this ,as I remember the cylinder head looked OK on those ,with centre spark plug etc ,looks like its got a decent brake cylinder set up,plenty of room around the engine

[nigel watts]

3696

3697

3698

3699

3700

3701

[bry3500]

check this Bob http://www.borgward.org.uk/Gavin%20Watson.htm

[nigel watts]

3702

3703

[bob homewood]

May be the Borgward 3704
Arabella might be a better choice if you can find one ,this engine made in 1959 evolved into the Subaru around 1986

[AMCO72]

Now theres an idea.....an Arabella with a WRX engine. !!!!!! Whos going to know. Should be able to blow off an A35 or two. First, find your Arabella. Wonder why these things did no good....the potential was obviously there. No, I think I'll stick to something BMC...we have the technology!!

[bob homewood]

Its amazing how close that engine resembles the early Subaru ,and if you scratch around a bit you find reference to the fact that the Borgward Isabella engine morphed into the BMW M20 !, thats what I really like about automotive history,bit like a Airbus with a computer glitch you never know where its taking you ,might sound a bit crazy ,but the Borgward thing has always interested me

[bob homewood]

Bit more here for those that are not sick of my ramblings,That green car would look good at Hampton Downs ,not sure about those tyre angles though
http://www.borgward.org.uk/racing_history.htm

[AMCO72]

Bob, has the Borgward got independant rear suspension....certainly looks like it. Might be like driving a old Skoda Felicia. Dont like that cornering attitude....no stuff Borgwards.

[bob homewood]

Bob, has the Borgward got independant rear suspension....certainly looks like it. Might be like driving a old Skoda Felicia. Dont like that cornering attitude....no stuff Borgwards.

Yes would be similar ,but most of the road tests rate the suspension quite well ,don't think it would be a problem lowered and with a camber compensator ( if its allowed ) on the rear like we used to do to the VW's
Found this breif
A superbly-engineered car that was a revelation in its day. Alloy-head 1500 engine puts out an impressive 75bhp, which Ford only just surpassed eight years later with the Cortina GT, and no Cortina ever enjoyed the Isabella’s independent rear suspension. Before he became a Vauxhall tuning guru, Bill Blydenstein successfully raced one in the Fifties. Brakes are another strong point and even the four-speed column-change is a delight to use. Thanks to a strong following in their native Germany, parts supply is almost total.

( I guess that last comments means parts are still avaliable }

[Oldfart]

How about this one?
Hint, it's NOT a Borgward and this photo is in period!

[Jac Mac]

Peugeot.....?

[Oldfart]

Peugeot.....?
Yes 203.

I have been asked by the VCC Waitemata Branch.. Nigel, could they use one of your photos for publicity for the next (2012) Roycroft trophy meeting for publicity?

AND our special guest for 2011 was Ivy Stephenson who, as well as being the previous owner of the Buckler also used a Borgward TS, so who is going to find one of these and front up?

[nigel watts]

Yes 203.

I have been asked by the VCC Waitemata Branch.. Nigel, could they use one of your photos for publicity for the next (2012) Roycroft trophy meeting for publicity?

AND our special guest for 2011 was Ivy Stephenson who, as well as being the previous owner of the Buckler also used a Borgward TS, so who is going to find one of these and front up?

No problem, just let me know which one & I'll send them a HiRes version.

[beowulf]

Hi, great ideas. Love the basic concept, I am sure it could be made into something workable. Rules have to be enforced strictly. Just a thought why not make the adge of the driver plus the car is more than 100. A 1950 car would have a driver who must be over 39, a 1940
car the driver would be 29 or over. Who knows we could use our Austin A105 to tow our serious race car to the track, race them both and then hitch hike home. Done that before. If you used your tow car as a race car it would have to be worth an extra place or two up the grid.

[Steve Holmes]

Boy, you guys, this has the potential to be really interesting! A 39 Ford coupe would fit right in.

[Oldfart]

OK Steve, your entry number is???
Remember the 4.00 by 16 crossply tyres?

[Oldfart]

Hi, great ideas. Love the basic concept, I am sure it could be made into something workable. Rules have to be enforced strictly. Just a thought why not make the adge of the driver plus the car is more than 100. A 1950 car would have a driver who must be over 39, a 1940
car the driver would be 29 or over. Who knows we could use our Austin A105 to tow our serious race car to the track, race them both and then hitch hike home. Done that before. If you used your tow car as a race car it would have to be worth an extra place or two up the grid.


Age + car is too young! 62 for me + 55 car = 117?
Or is a 1955 car 57 + my 62?

[beowulf]

Age + car is too young! 62 for me + 55 car = 117?
Ha beat you. My car is 48 years old plus my age of 70 =118. And I'm not competitive! Don't think that sport/ racing cars would be accepted though.

[Oldfart]

Ha beat you. My car is 48 years old plus my age of 70 =118. And I'm not competitive! Don't think that sport/ racing cars would be accepted though.
If we are talking about the car which has your site name, it's barely pre 61?? I took photos of the car at the initial Baypark meeting emerging from the cement dust clouds. I think the "guidelines" address the type of cars! And I am pretty sure I spent a bit of time crawling over your car at the 2010 Roycroft meeting. Then I may be reading too much into names!

[peril 787b]

I've been discussing this idea with a number of people since Oldfart rang me and told of his idea. Almost everyone has had the same response of "what a great idea, but now you've ruined the next few days while I think of cars". I reckon this will be a great step in increasing field numbers, and now HAVE to find a car. Please don't put the 100 year car+driver in, I don't think a pre 45 car would be too race ready without WAAAAAAAAAAAAYY too much work.

[bob homewood]

Might have a winner here I mentioned the idea to a couple of " older " people today ,they think its a great concept and next question they asked me is what do I use

[Jac Mac]

I think the average 29 year old would throw all the toys out of the cot if you suggested that he drive/race a 71 year old car, he wouldnt be able to find the 'press enter to start' button...... No dont need them, keep it at 50 or over for the driver, when they see how much fun your having they might start to grow up quicker!!

[Oldfart]

I think the average 29 year old would throw all the toys out of the cot if you suggested that he drive/race a 71 year old car, he wouldnt be able to find the 'press enter to start' button...... No dont need them, keep it at 50 or over for the driver, when they see how much fun your having they might start to grow up quicker!!

Now I just happen to know who Peril is, and he is not too far away from the 29 years you mention. He is more often known for those funny engines they claim are 1200cc and make a "crap, crap, crap" noise! Now if he is enthusiastic, there is hope for the next generation! Then again my 21 year old son wanted to get a car too, but he might have to wait a wee while before he comes hom from a rather interesting job in thee UK designing Triumphs. Not all the young guys are only capable of driving PS3!

[Steve Holmes]

Oldfart, have you come up with a name for your class yet?

[AMCO72]

Surely...."Old Farts Racing' !!!!!!Not something boring like.... 'pre 61'. Have been raking my brains trying to think of a suitable machine and I keep coming back to BMC. As peril787b says, some of these potential 'race cars' are going to need massive amounts of work to get them competitive,or even safe, and at what cost. All those old 50's cars are very heavy, so I want to know how much lightening are we going to be able to do. Probably the most sensible would be an A40 Farina, but apparently we cant bore out to 1275cc, although I cant see why not, as the technology was there in the late 50's. Better still would be an A95 or A105 as these motors can be made to give serious HP, also have the option of over-drive, and a lot of other advantages compared to say Bobs choice of Borgward.....not the least a better spares availability. Other than that we are going to have to resort to super-charging with all it's attendant problems. I like Beowulfs idea of towing your 'real' race car to the circuit with the pre61, and racing both....marvellous. Tough luck if they both come to grief. Clearly this whole idea has got a lot of people thinking ,so I'm sure something will come of it....we just need some secure guidelines, no, more than guidelines, RULES.

[Oldfart]

I do want you all to remember that these will be primarily used at VINTAGE CLUB EVENTS, at least that is where the initial focus will be.
I guess there is a huge potential for the "mainstream" events to take them on board too.
In the UK they are known as "Oldies but Goldies" and run with the masters series.
Amco, in regard the Farina, it needs to be a Mark 1 with the shorter wheelbase as the Mk 2 was post 60. Lightening is within the same basic rule, what could and would have been done in the period. Personally I would be very disappointed to see bolted on perspex and portholes. If the windows appeared to be in the original tracks and the drivers' window opened as originally manufactured then that is OK.
Also remember in VCC there are NO PRIZES so running away in the front will have no benefit. If "all those old 50's cars are heavy" what is the problem? Every car has the same disadvantage? You don't HAVE to spend lots of money, sometimes that is just the personal ego making a person do it. If you are at the tail end battling with 4 others you probably have just as much fun (probably a lot more) than someone who is at the front running away with no-one else to play with?
I agree with the need for rules, I put the "guidelines" out for discussion, so where are the suggestions? Easy to pick holes, harder to offer thoughts??

[AMCO72]

This Borgward thing worries me Bob. If they are as good as you say, and I dont doubt your word, cos you know what you are talking about, why did they just fizzle out so quickly in NZ. Funnily enough I have just managed to sell the MG TF1500 that I mentioned in another thread. It was left-hand drive and I had given up trying to sell it in NZ. I had been corresponding with a German guy about it, and this last weekend he came here on business, and after inspecting the car bought it on the spot. The interesting thing was that he owned....a Borgward Isabella Coupe, so remembering Bobs penchant for these things asked him a few leading questions as to the suitability or not of racing a Borgward. I think he was rather taken aback that someone would want to do such an appalling thing to such a fine classic car, so I'm no further ahead. He says there is a reasonable spares supply in Germany and some repro stuff and theoretically would be possible to get spares here, even though car production stopped in the early 60's, I think. Is a bit like Paul Radisich racing that dreadful Russian thing at Goodwood...a Zil was it......looked a bit like a 50's Studebaker. It went OK with Paul behind the wheel ,as you would expect, but the A105 still beat it into a cocked hat. Cant see any point in competing with something that hasn't got a chance of winning, even with a sympathetic handicapper. And dont tell me that race car drivers dont want to win....even us old fogeys enjoy a win or two, or we would stay at home and do our knitting.!!!!!!

[AMCO72]

Point taken, Oldfart, but this was your 'baby' so I think is up to you to draft some rules, and I'm sure there will lively discussion. Dont know whether you should model this class on something already happening in the UK but would probably be a start. This will be motor-RACING, not Classic Trialing so everyone will be thinking performance.....wont they? When I raced the MG 1100 in Classic racing in 1987, I got sick and tired of coming last in every race with just about everyone lapping me, and in the end just gave it away. Yes I had some 'dicing' with back-markers but I would sooner have been nearer the pointy end of the field.

[Jac Mac]

Old Fart, cripes he could be anyone with a moniker like that!!, better not be Dave Slater..that would ruin my day...

Rules, I hate that term, guidelines, why dont you start with a post on what you would like, then we can quote your post & add our individual thoughts within that post, preferably by using a different colour on the text we type in on each topic.

[Jac Mac]

I do want you all to remember that these will be primarily used at VINTAGE CLUB EVENTS, at least that is where the initial focus will be.
I guess there is a huge potential for the "mainstream" events to take them on board too.Yes, but if possible it would be better to run it under VCC umbrella as an invited 'extra' at such meetings.
In the UK they are known as "Oldies but Goldies" and run with the masters series.Yes, I am familiar with that class
Amco, in regard the Farina, it needs to be a Mark 1 with the shorter wheelbase as the Mk 2 was post 60. Lightening is within the same basic rule, what could and would have been done in the period. Personally I would be very disappointed to see bolted on perspex and portholes. If the windows appeared to be in the original tracks and the drivers' window opened as originally manufactured then that is OK.Yes, Im all for that.
Also remember in VCC there are NO PRIZES so running away in the front will have no benefit. If "all those old 50's cars are heavy" what is the problem? Every car has the same disadvantage? You don't HAVE to spend lots of money, sometimes that is just the personal ego making a person do it. If you are at the tail end battling with 4 others you probably have just as much fun (probably a lot more) than someone who is at the front running away with no-one else to play with?SFOS runs under the same ethic, no prizemoney etc, that does not stop some from spending big time.. I would like to think that 'we' could control things a bit more tightly than that stuff, for example I suggested a 55 T-Bird, Id like to think I could use a more reliable 3 speed box out of a mustang-but not a Jerico or anything like that, same with any other 'known' weak links like stub axles etc, we wouldnt want a trail of cars left out on the circuit at the end of each race due to component failures like that, but you dont want to end up with vented discs replacing drums etc either. I suppose having been involved with JO's TVR I can see the point where people get sick of trying to keep up, but at least in the class your suggesting cars in general did not have the advantages that later versions do.... mind you if I was a GM fan an early vette would look good on paper, same with an early Jag, especially with some weight out.
I agree with the need for rules, I put the "guidelines" out for discussion, so where are the suggestions? Easy to pick holes, harder to offer thoughts??

Theres some!!

[AMCO72]

Actually, there are no 'prizes' in ANY NZ motorsport that I can think of, certainly not monetary ones. Have been 'connected' to NZ V8's for some years now and the boys sometimes get a bottle of 'Chardon' for their efforts, or a chocolate fish!! And Jac Mac, good idea....once a few things are down on paper then the discussions will start. We seem to be just tossing it around at the moment to gauge the interest, and there seems to be no lack of that, and we can move forward from the 'guidelines' page. Too much WRC to concentrate on anything else!! And Jac Mac....dont think it is DS....he is otherwise engaged, I think. So rest easy.

[Oldfart]

Jacmac and Amco, go back to post #18. There are the initial thoughts for discussion! I am happy for you to add thoughts, however it is not solely my baby. The Waitemata branch of VCC has already had input. They will be run under VCC at their meetings (given sufficient cars) need to have VIC (vehicle Identity Card) no cost, need to have VCC race licence $35 odd for 3 years, these are set in stone. It would need discussion with Motorsport to comply with some of their rules, although there are some combined meetings where MS accept VCC cars. Personally I can't be bothered with some of Motorport requirements and particularly costs.
Totally agree about gearbox, same number of ratios as original, later box is Ok (in my opinion). A period car should reflect the period, WITH ALL ITS' COMPONENTS, any later major component of the core 5 (engine, body, chassis, transmission, suspension) makes the whole unit of the later period. There are some grounds, I believe to discuss this, electronic ignition is a case in point, I believe that if it looks like points and coil that's OK who wants a fleet of cars with burnt out points littering the circuit? An event I have competed in for the last number of years now has "classic" cars which are a body shell with late model components. They ain't classics.
Jacmac, last time I looked a "vette was not a saloon car! Neither is a Tbird is it? Fine line there, how did Ford market the aircraft carrier?
I don't even know who Dave Slater is! It sure ain't me. Amco I know, Jacmac no idea.
Lets keep this fun, that's what it's designed for.

[Jac Mac]

Thoughts for Vintage Racing Saloons.

The following is some thoughts for debating so that a set of “Guidelines” could be put in place so that potential participants are aware of the “spirit” which others take part under.
It is NOT my intention to state what these must be, but I feel very strongly that a framework should be in place before problems arise.
In order to start discussion I have penned some thoughts, please feel free to discuss, add, delete or amend. In this way I think that a robust and fun class could be in place in a short time.

Cars.
The car to be a production saloon which was in production prior to December 31 1960. Onus of proof of this rests with the owner. Variants of saloon, ie staion wagon are acceptable, sports version (non saloon) are not. Cabriolet and coupe ??Being totally biased you should probably allow coupes..Sidevalve Fords & Chevs obviously feature in other parts of this website.
Body modifications, ie chop tops, channeling, tail chops etc are specifically banned. The car shall have a full complement of seats as sold, although the drivers’ seat may be replaced with an alternate with better support. Current “wing” seats are discouraged.All fine by me
Bumpers shall be in place.
Hubcaps are not required.
All lights should be in place, headlights taped (as was done and required in period).These must be in working condition.
External trim strips, ie chrome etc. PLEASE DISCUSS, my personal feeling is they should not be compulsory, as in period they were often asked to be removed for safety, also an item that may be difficult and expensive to find.
Floor mats/carpets, I do not think they should be required, but if removed the floorpan should be a subtle colour so it is not too obvious.All good
Steering wheel should be of the period.Same dia or within say a couple of inch's, dont like the thought of being skewered by some of those early pommie multi wire things:)
Instruments must be period, ie no digital, shift lights etc.Good, less is more
Roll over protection. A thorny one. I suspect there are varied views on this. Up to the individual?Id rather have a roll bar, but in saying that I wouldnt want to have to make it conform to current MSNZ rules, common sense should prevail on this one

Engine
To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion. Ie one off engine transplant is not acceptable, but where this was not uncommon would be allowed. Onus of proof as above.Agreed
Modifications to the engine.
Only modifications which could have and were been done in the period (pre Dec 60) are acceptable. This one is a can of worms, but should be, I believe the basis of the “rule”.Yes, no carbs for example that were not made prior to 1960,

Suspension
Shall remain in the same form as when sold new. If the car was fitted with lever arm shocks, they must remain as the only form of shock. Likewise lever arms which form suspension arms. Cars may be lowered by no more than 50mm. Springs may be modified in stiffness, number of leaves etc. Axle location should remain the same as original, but additional members may be added, ie panhard rods, Watts linkages, tramp bars, as long as the primary location remains. Test of this to be detach one end of any rod and the car remains suspended. Alternate on lowering, to be road legal.I would go with the road legal ride height, has to be able to clear a 100mm block with anything other than exhaust.

Brakes
Must remain in the same form as originally sold. Ie if sold with drum brakes, no conversion to discs is allowed. Brake scoops, ventilated back plates, Alfin type drums are allowed. Brake lining material is free. Conversion from rod or cable to hydraulic is acceptable. A secondary form of braking is recommended, even if it is only handbrake.Good

Wheels
Must be of a size which could have been fitted in the period. This automatically means that widened wheels are not acceptable as this process was not in place until later in the 60s. Alternate wheels, eg van versions, 13” rims on original centres, Vauxhall wheels on Ford 10, wheels from a later version (pre 60) are acceptable Not totally with this, there are many steel wheels that had a habit of breaking out centers etc & those wheels were upgraded in later versions of cars...take my T-Bird example, A ~1970 Falcon Ute rim will interchange-look the same- but center is made from steel damn near twice as thick
Tyres
Must be of no lower profile than 65 series, road tyres. Ie no race or semi race tyres are allowed. They should be available readily without specialist suppliers.I just wish we could still get crossplies:)

Presentation
The car should be presented to a reasonable standard. The spectator should be able to expect to see cars of reasonable standard, no primer, dents etc unless sustained at the same meeting, although contact between cars would result in questions being asked of both parties. If the damage is behind the driver of one car & in front of the driver on another in an incident & the car with frontal damage was at rear prior to prang then its his fault:)

EXTRA
It has been suggested that a car having been allowed at one meeting does not, as of right, qualify for any other. Additional restrictions may become needed as the use of these cars becomes more common. All modifications should be reversible without disagreement, discussion is fine, argument is not!Sounds good.

Now here you go for something to move forward. Please do not accept the UK rules, they allow way too much, ie 1275cc in 58 cars etc.

I am thrilled with the enthusiasm!

Thats one!

[bob homewood]

This Borgward thing worries me Bob. If they are as good as you say, and I dont doubt your word, cos you know what you are talking about, why did they just fizzle out so quickly in NZ. Funnily enough I have just managed to sell the MG TF1500 that I mentioned in another thread. It was left-hand drive and I had given up trying to sell it in NZ. I had been corresponding with a German guy about it, and this last weekend he came here on business, and after inspecting the car bought it on the spot. The interesting thing was that he owned....a Borgward Isabella Coupe, so remembering Bobs penchant for these things asked him a few leading questions as to the suitability or not of racing a Borgward. I think he was rather taken aback that someone would want to do such an appalling thing to such a fine classic car, so I'm no further ahead. He says there is a reasonable spares supply in Germany and some repro stuff and theoretically would be possible to get spares here, even though car production stopped in the early 60's, I think. Is a bit like Paul Radisich racing that dreadful Russian thing at Goodwood...a Zil was it......looked a bit like a 50's Studebaker. It went OK with Paul behind the wheel ,as you would expect, but the A105 still beat it into a cocked hat. Cant see any point in competing with something that hasn't got a chance of winning, even with a sympathetic handicapper. And dont tell me that race car drivers dont want to win....even us old fogeys enjoy a win or two, or we would stay at home and do our knitting.!!!!!!

Gerald I was only suggesting the Borgward as something I wanted to do one time ,but you have got to be sensible ,its only a fun thing and you don't want to go off on some spending spree for nothing other than your ego ,I think there are those amongst us that would perhaps want to do build up something different to satisy dreams or thoughts that never happened ,I think you have got to keep in mind you don't need to have something that you have to mortgage your house to own The Farina is sensible ,you will need to check on how big the engine would end up as from memory the 1098cc version didn't appear until late 1961 ,which might mean that with in the limit of the 1960 time frame around 1040 cc is as bid as you can go ,I guess one thing that is going to have to be stipulated is keeping it all period ,perhaps like retaining the original stroke for the model

[Oldfart]

Now that is positive, thanks. When I was thinking coupes, my mind was thing like Renault Florides rather than Dauphine, or Alpines. Yes the Mercury, Chev etc is some what different.
Agree on your wheel thoughts, but I guess we don't want white spoke 8" wheels on a 100E! That will take some wording, input needed.
Steering wheels is "sort of", don't want current Momo types. Certainly agree on the steering wheels which were dodgy in the time 50+ years later they would be a disaster. Perhaps have to be within x mm of the original diameter?

[AMCO72]

OK, all this is great, and we are all pumped up with excitement imagining fields of 20/30/40 glorious old 40's/50's cars humming round Hampton Downs thrilling the crowds that will be flocking to the circuit to watch, and relive the glory days of NZ motorsport. BUT....where are all these potential race-cars going to come from? The American sedans of the 40's/50's have been snapped up by the Hot-Rod boys and are ineligible; those that haven't ,and the other makes, mostly English and French have been lovingly restored by VCC members and are driven gently on rallies and trials by careful Mom and Pop teams with their picnic baskets in the back. I cant think of any owners in our branch of the VCC who would put their machines through a tough race programme and expect to survive without major problems. Bob's idea of a Borgward is a case in point....first find your Borgward. Of course Bob may have a stash of them in his back shed, but I doubt it. We have a 'collector', read horder, here in Cambridge on a 10 acre block who does have a few rustyish examples of 50's, mostly English, saloons, but all of them require extensive bodywork to even get them safe, let alone in race condition. And of course he thinks they are all worth big money because they are so rare....well he's right about the rare, but not the big money, so they will sit in his shed slowly dissolving into the floor. Talking of floors, we will need decent mounting points for seatbelts, which were not fitted in the fifties, and with no chassis to hook into is going to be a problem with bodies not designed for seat-belt mounting. You see, when these things raced in the 50's, they were all 'current' models and used everyday on the road, so there was a good stockpile to call on. Someone has said we dont need to spend large amounts to get the cars race worthy, well I'm not so sure, and I can see dead cars littered around the track enveloped in clouds of steam and smoke, and that wont speed up the meeting after they have all been recovered. I was thinking that a Humber 80 might be a good machine to use but I couldnt tell you where I could find one. So, If anyone has a stash of cars ripe for turning into Classic racers, give me a call, because at the moment the cupboard is bare!!!!

[Jac Mac]

Those thoughts have been nagging me overnight as well, I think we will find that 'competitors' would fall into three basic types,

1. Existing VCC members who already have a treasure trove of their favourite cars & have one or two examples that are never going to be concours winners, but would make worthwhile candidates for this type of race series & the drive to & from race meets plus having a spare road car makes it all feasible.

2. The guys/gals who have old cars with a view to selling in future as per your 10 acre example that might get their A into G with this and decide to compete or liquidate the assets..

3. Those older racers who are looking for a more fun & less expensive class to race in in the twilight years, these are the danger guys as coming from what are more $$ spending & must win series they dont take kindly to the re-education process, will probably pick what they consider to be a potential winner & just build it, regardless of $$ in order to compete, I dont see how we could or even if we should try to control that...to old to learn how to age gracefully:)

I had a scout around on ebay last night... 1959 studebaker Lark- 259 V8 US$ 900-00+ ( two cars ) in Illinois.. didnt one of those win one of the early Bathurst races?, 59 /60 Chev two doors, Fords Mercs, 1960 Falcon, yes I know all US stuff... I really think for euro & UK stuff the best bets are what is here now, there were a couple of 356 Porsches on T/Me not long ago, would they be eligible?

I can 'see' one of our Snr Citizens now, pulled over by one of NZ's finest patrol cars, explaining why he is driving home at night with numbers on the doors, race tape still on the headlights & period leather straps holding the bonnet shut :):)

[Steve Holmes]

Thoughts for Vintage Racing Saloons.

The following is some thoughts for debating so that a set of “Guidelines” could be put in place so that potential participants are aware of the “spirit” which others take part under.
It is NOT my intention to state what these must be, but I feel very strongly that a framework should be in place before problems arise.
In order to start discussion I have penned some thoughts, please feel free to discuss, add, delete or amend. In this way I think that a robust and fun class could be in place in a short time.

Cars.
The car to be a production saloon which was in production prior to December 31 1960. Onus of proof of this rests with the owner. Variants of saloon, ie staion wagon are acceptable, sports version (non saloon) are not. Cabriolet and coupe ??
Body modifications, ie chop tops, channeling, tail chops etc are specifically banned. The car shall have a full complement of seats as sold, although the drivers’ seat may be replaced with an alternate with better support. Current “wing” seats are discouraged.
Bumpers shall be in place.
Hubcaps are not required.
All lights should be in place, headlights taped (as was done and required in period).These must be in working condition.
External trim strips, ie chrome etc. PLEASE DISCUSS, my personal feeling is they should not be compulsory, as in period they were often asked to be removed for safety, also an item that may be difficult and expensive to find.
Floor mats/carpets, I do not think they should be required, but if removed the floorpan should be a subtle colour so it is not too obvious.
Steering wheel should be of the period.
Instruments must be period, ie no digital, shift lights etc.
Roll over protection. A thorny one. I suspect there are varied views on this. Up to the individual?

Engine
To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion. Ie one off engine transplant is not acceptable, but where this was not uncommon would be allowed. Onus of proof as above.
Modifications to the engine.
Only modifications which could have and were been done in the period (pre Dec 60) are acceptable. This one is a can of worms, but should be, I believe the basis of the “rule”.

Suspension
Shall remain in the same form as when sold new. If the car was fitted with lever arm shocks, they must remain as the only form of shock. Likewise lever arms which form suspension arms. Cars may be lowered by no more than 50mm. Springs may be modified in stiffness, number of leaves etc. Axle location should remain the same as original, but additional members may be added, ie panhard rods, Watts linkages, tramp bars, as long as the primary location remains. Test of this to be detach one end of any rod and the car remains suspended. Alternate on lowering, to be road legal.

Brakes
Must remain in the same form as originally sold. Ie if sold with drum brakes, no conversion to discs is allowed. Brake scoops, ventilated back plates, Alfin type drums are allowed. Brake lining material is free. Conversion from rod or cable to hydraulic is acceptable. A secondary form of braking is recommended, even if it is only handbrake.

Wheels
Must be of a size which could have been fitted in the period. This automatically means that widened wheels are not acceptable as this process was not in place until later in the 60s. Alternate wheels, eg van versions, 13” rims on original centres, Vauxhall wheels on Ford 10, wheels from a later version (pre 60) are acceptable
Tyres
Must be of no lower profile than 65 series, road tyres. Ie no race or semi race tyres are allowed. They should be available readily without specialist suppliers.

Presentation
The car should be presented to a reasonable standard. The spectator should be able to expect to see cars of reasonable standard, no primer, dents etc unless sustained at the same meeting, although contact between cars would result in questions being asked of both parties.

EXTRA
It has been suggested that a car having been allowed at one meeting does not, as of right, qualify for any other. Additional restrictions may become needed as the use of these cars becomes more common. All modifications should be reversible without disagreement, discussion is fine, argument is not!

Now here you go for something to move forward. Please do not accept the UK rules, they allow way too much, ie 1275cc in 58 cars etc.

I am thrilled with the enthusiasm!

Just out of interest, you've got written: "Engine. To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion". Small block Chev V8s (called Corvette engines in the period) were popular transplants into pre-war American coupes. Is this considered "a common conversion"?

[Steve Holmes]

Just some opinions here Oldfart. You know what they say about opinions, they're like arseholes, everyone has one. So you can take or leave my opinions as you please.

Both Dale (Kiwiboss) and myself used to be involved in a muscle car racing class a few years ago. We have both long since left, but what we learned from our involvement has taught us a lot of lessons about what works and what doesn't when it comes to 'enthusiast' car racing. Despite best intentions, there will always be those who try to manoeuvre the direction of the class for personal gain, to the detriment of the class.

Here are some things we learned.

1. It should always be about the cars. The cars are the stars, not the people driving them. When you think this way, you'll remember why you're doing this.

2. Championships, points, race wins don't matter in historic/enthusiast car racing. Those who think they do should probably be racing in Formula Ford or something. To the punters paying to come watch, they don't care who wins races in classes like this. They are more interested in the cars themselves. In classes like this, the car that has the biggest crowd around it in the pits between races is more valuable than the car that wins the races.

3. This class has loads of potential. Just look at the number of comments its received already. That means, it'll be popular with punters, and that means it'll be popular with event promoters. And as soon as you begin appearing at high profile historic events, you'll start attracting the ego-maniacs, who want to demonstrate their driving talents in front of a big crowd, at the expense of your class. So, long before you ever have your first race, make sure your rules are bullet proof. As Gerald has said above in an earlier post, these are really important. When you have strict rules, YOU always stay in control of your class. It sounds over the top to have strict rules in historic racing, but I promise when you're racing at high profile events and the ego-maniacs have jumped onboard, you'll be glad you took the time to write the rules properly.

Anyway, judging by your comments throughout this thread, I reckon you already know most of this stuff anyway. Dale and I have formed a new historic muscle car class and these are the principles we have built the class around. Enthusiasts having fun with old cars. Thats what its all about. But you have to protect your creation as well.

[AMCO72]

Thank you Steve.....bang on!!!!!!

[Steve Holmes]

Nice idea guys..I'm imagining a field of cars something akin to the Goodwood revival St Marys Trophy race, Saloons between 1950 and 1959..must be a few of those old Brit cars still lurking around over there in kiwiland

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ-BdhKwBpQ&feature=relatedf

This is great! Is the large orange thing a Tatra?

[Steve Holmes]

Some precious metal for potential candidates, and all under 10K:

1957 Austin A35:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/austin/auction-406617853.htm

1952 Morris Minor:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/morris/minor/auction-407481352.htm

1953 Humber 10:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/humber/auction-381863530.htm

1951 Jowet Javelin:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/jowet/auction-406348301.htm

1957 Borgward Isabella:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/borgward/auction-405654339.htm

1957 Hillman California:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/hillmancalifornia/auction-409013298.htm

1955 Ford Consul MkI:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/mark/auction-408121825.htm

1960 Fiat 500:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/fiat/500/auction-406056587.htm

1955 Ford Popular:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/popular/auction-408613305.htm

1959 VW Beetle:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/volkswagen/beetle/auction-406867267.htm

1955 Vauxhall Velox:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/vauxhall/auction-407035100.htm

1959 Morris Oxford:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/morris/oxford/auction-407485303.htm

1952 Austin A40:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/austin/a/auction-407889209.htm

1958 Vauxhall PA:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/velox/auction-406456386.htm

1957 Ford 100E:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/100e/auction-405999893.htm

1946 Ford V8:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/sedan/auction-404627921.htm

1957 Ford Consul MkII:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/consul/auction-401261664.htm

1954 Vanguard:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/vanguard/auction-400369599.htm

1958 Triumph Standard 10:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/triumph/standard/auction-399277066.htm

1957 Ford Zephyr MkII:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/zephyr/auction-398145529.htm

1949 Morris Minor Lo-Lite:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/morris/lo-lite/auction-388100244.htm

1960 Jaguar MkII:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/jaguar/mk2/auction-361037249.htm

1958 Jaguar MkI:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/jaguar/mark/auction-356775938.htm

No excuses now boys!

[GeebeeNZ]

Thanks Steve. Yes the cars are out there at a reasonable price. This era gives a wide variation of makes. The PA Vaux is a proven performer on the track and the Zephyr would be good if it wasnt an auto. Shame the Jags are 2.4s. And how about a Vanguard you could tune to racing TR2 Specs. There have been some very quick A35s and A40 Farinas in the past and we musnt forget the late Harold Heasley in his Consul and Paul Fahey in his VW. Finding a pre 1960 Fiat 500 would be hard as the owner of the one advertised is a bit unsure of the age. They have raced before but may be a bit slow in this company. Roll on Hampton Downs 14th April

[bob homewood]

I'm going to risk getting shot here by Gerald but both the VW and the Fiat 500 could be made to go a lot faster than was ever intended .The Fiat 500 with a couple of o/size barrels ,a bit of head work,cam and a bigger carb ,would actually respond quite well ,Nardi used to do a 650 cc conversion for them ,perhaps Abarth might have done it as well ,don't know how long the rear drive couplings would last if you had to keep them as standard under the rules.The VW now that could be another can of worms depending on how you police the age etc of the allowed engine components ,all worth thinking about though

[GeebeeNZ]

Thats got me thinking Bob. I have a Nardi 650cc engine in the garage. It is on a 500D crankcase 1960 to 1965 Has the VW barrels etc and a Dellorto FZD on it. All I need is 1960 or older 500D. Also have the Abarth 695SS sitting there waiting for a new floor. Has all the bits and a factory top speed of 88mph but the car is 1967 and ineligible in this class.

[bob homewood]

I can remember driving one with the VW barrels etc ,sounds similar spec to what you are talking about it went pretty well ,would make a modified 1000 mini earn its keep ,lower her down with a bit wider tyre contact ,it might surprise a few people and with a good exhaust it will sound like a big twin !

[GeebeeNZ]

Thats it Bob I could run the 5 inch wide 10 inch Campagnolos off the Abarth and with the right exhaust sounds like a Ducatti on full song.

[Ellis]

I think Oz Cams Historic Group Na rules seem to cover most of the points being discussed.
It may be worth a read for some ideas from the online handbook.

http://www.camsmanual.com.au/08_historic.asp

[Oldfart]

I think Oz Cams Historic Group Na rules seem to cover most of the points being discussed.
It may be worth a read for some ideas from the online handbook.

http://www.camsmanual.com.au/08_historic.asp
Quick looks close, I have some issues but close!

[AMCO72]

See, I told you.......performance, performance, performance!!!!!!!sounding like a Ducatti....would give a Mini run for its money...sounds like a big twin......could tune it to TR 2 race tune..... Yeh Right.........this is NOT going to be a lot of old fogeys driving around in their 'standard' Standards. Oldfart....you are going to have to rein-in these guys before it's too late. But thats the thing......all us fellas on here are RACERS....as Stirling Moss said...he likes to RACE. We want to push the boundaries. Clever guys like Bob aren't going to tootle around in some stupid little standard Fiat....and why would he. He might bring a smile to crowds watching, but the handicapper is going to have to give him 4 laps start ,or the sun will be setting when he finishes. The performance difference of some of these potential racers is huge.....Jag v's Fiat 500.....mmmmmm. This is why we are going to need RULES. I remember very well the meeting at Taupo in the late 80's when one competitor arrived with a very modified car. The bodywork looked standard, a few light panels, but my goodness underneath was something else. He of course blew us all into the weeds and there was nothing to say he couldn't do what he did, other than sticking to the 'spirit of the class'. Well that was about as useless as tits on a bull!!! Then wouldn't you know it, next meeting a couple more competitors had joined him, and that was it...all over. That car is still racing today, although now it is 'only' average, but back then it was what we all aspired to. This first year is going to be critical...the standard set now will set the tone for the future. Even if there are only 10 genuine cars on the track it will be worth it. Incidentally, I was hoping to get a car sitting on the grid for $10,000, but clearly that is not going to happen. And Bob, the only reason I rark you up is because I know you can take it, AND I know who you are, which is not the case with some of these other fellas.....dont know who I'm taking on, though I can usually hold my own in a war of words. Also Bob, please stick with your original choice...the Borgward....although you are a little guy, I cant see you behind the wheel of a little Fiat!!!!

[Jac Mac]

$10000.00 !!!, I assume your not counting your own hours in that, just the actual parts & outwork that you 'would' have to get done by someone else either because you did not have the equipment or the 'Rules' state you couldnt. On a similar basis I guessed around $15000.00+ for the cars I had in mind.. T-Bird, Customline, Studebaker Lark( Yes the T-Bird would add about $10.000/12000.00 to that figure for the donor car- I know I know, but there would be a spin-off benefit in that for me:)... mind you if we were building & getting paid for that part by someone else I dont think there would be much change out of $40/50k.

RULES, yes as per steves post above you got to set them in concrete from day one..

[kiwi285]

Some precious metal for potential candidates, and all under 10K:

1957 Austin A35:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/austin/auction-406617853.htm

1952 Morris Minor:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/morris/minor/auction-407481352.htm

1953 Humber 10:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/humber/auction-381863530.htm

1951 Jowet Javelin:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/jowet/auction-406348301.htm

1957 Borgward Isabella:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/borgward/auction-405654339.htm

1957 Hillman California:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/hillmancalifornia/auction-409013298.htm

1955 Ford Consul MkI:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/mark/auction-408121825.htm

1960 Fiat 500:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/fiat/500/auction-406056587.htm

1955 Ford Popular:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/popular/auction-408613305.htm

1959 VW Beetle:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/volkswagen/beetle/auction-406867267.htm

1955 Vauxhall Velox:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/vauxhall/auction-407035100.htm

1959 Morris Oxford:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/morris/oxford/auction-407485303.htm

1952 Austin A40:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/austin/a/auction-407889209.htm

1958 Vauxhall PA:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/velox/auction-406456386.htm

1957 Ford 100E:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/100e/auction-405999893.htm

1946 Ford V8:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/sedan/auction-404627921.htm

1957 Ford Consul MkII:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/consul/auction-401261664.htm

1954 Vanguard:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/other/vanguard/auction-400369599.htm

1958 Triumph Standard 10:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/triumph/standard/auction-399277066.htm

1957 Ford Zephyr MkII:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/zephyr/auction-398145529.htm

1949 Morris Minor Lo-Lite:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/morris/lo-lite/auction-388100244.htm

1960 Jaguar MkII:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/jaguar/mk2/auction-361037249.htm

1958 Jaguar MkI:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/jaguar/mark/auction-356775938.htm

No excuses now boys!

What a fantastic collection of old cars. To see some of those out on track racing again would be special. I for one would be along there just to see them running in anger. I certainly wouldn't care who won the event - THE CARS ARE THE STARS.

[AMCO72]

Just a question I need answered. Do you think that a WOF & Rego would be mandatory for this class. Could stop a lot of the 'illegal' modifications being done, to make it a slightly more level playing field. Performance and handling characteristics of these cars on Steve's list is mind bogling. I think the A40 is in the care of our 'horder' in Cambridge that I mentioned before. If it is, he has a lot more stuff more suitable than the Austin. They were bouncy old things when brand-new, and as we are not allowed to change to a different type of shock absorber will be a nightmare to drive at other than a gentle pace.

[bob homewood]

Just a question I need answered. Do you think that a WOF & Rego would be mandatory for this class. Could stop a lot of the 'illegal' modifications being done, to make it a slightly more level playing field. Performance and handling characteristics of these cars on Steve's list is mind bogling. I think the A40 is in the care of our 'horder' in Cambridge that I mentioned before. If it is, he has a lot more stuff more suitable than the Austin. They were bouncy old things when brand-new, and as we are not allowed to change to a different type of shock absorber will be a nightmare to drive at other than a gentle pace.

Gerald my thoughts are the Wof and rego on the face of it look like a good idea ,but it might pay to think ,the idea of this class appeals to me because we can do away with a lot of the red tape we go through now to go and have a week ends fun,I just look at the dramas we have here at work getting things certified etc and just wonder if we are introducing a whole lot of dramas ,most of these fine old machines we are thinking about are bound to going to need rust repairs etc,in some cases that is going to create more paperwok than I really want to get involved with ,I think that if we have a set of rules the cars have to retain a standard appearance and be up to the equal of WOF standards i.e. lights ,wipers etc fitted and operating ,doors opening and shutting etc,I just think the Wof and rego will make a lot more paperwork ,especially if the car has been laying in a shed for ages ,which the A40 I know of has been,I for one certainly don't want to go out and build a supercar type thing ,I spend all my working hours doing that ,I just want something that with out a lot of paperwork or hiring a solicitor I can go and have a bit of fun with ,who knows my lost youth might even be hiding in the boot of it

[AMCO72]

Thanks Bob, thats all I need to know. I agree with everything you say, because I'm going to be kind to you from now on!!!!! No seriously, you are right, we do not need any Land Transport involvement in this. I just wonder about this shock-absorber thing....could be a matter of safety....well thats what we are told on the telly.

[rogered]

hate to see it chopped up though
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/austin/auction-397568408.htm

[AMCO72]

Rogered......Farina is too late....1963. Got to be the shorter wheel-based Mk1. But I have 'discovered' 2 very likely candidates. You remember my friend Glen Horn....the one with the wrecking yard that we talked about in Y & Y....well he has...[1]. 1958 Austin A35..4 door...one family owner. Nice little car....a small rust patch under the accelerator pedal, otherwise very sound and complete....Glen is asking $2500.ono. [2]. 1958 PA Vauxhall Cresta.....three piece rear-window model. Some small rust patches but very sound and complete.....$3000. ono. The Vauxhall especially was a grunty machine in it's day....easily capable of 90 mph, and very receptive to tuning. I do not want either of these cars, so if anyone is interested let me know on this site, and I can point you in the right direction.

[Oldfart]

To answer some questions.
While I wrote about the shocks, I am personally not in favour of retention of levers where they were originally fitted being compulsory, so this may change. Still not in favour of fabricated wishbones, adjustable platforms etc though.
WOF, I don't think this should be necessary, some of the cars I envisioned were the "barn finds" and re-compliancing is an expense which may not be warranted. BUT they should be able to comply with WOF type scrutiny. (As Bob has expressed very succinctly)

[Oldfart]

Gerald, you have said "we need RULES" please contribute your thoughts.
I can take a rarking, but just criticising isn't too helpful, your thoughts have been great, and I am totally stunned by the enthusiasm.
The "3 types of entrants" earlier is right on the nail, and the serious racer is not really the ones I give a monkeys about. The Aussie N rule actually states it pretty well, if you don't like the rules, go find somewhere else to play, well somewhat paraphrased.
I also have a few contacts for likely cars, but would be interested to know about the A35 (Glen)

[bob homewood]

To answer some questions.
While I wrote about the shocks, I am personally not in favour of retention of levers where they were originally fitted being compulsory, so this may change. Still not in favour of fabricated wishbones, adjustable platforms etc though.
WOF, I don't think this should be necessary, some of the cars I envisioned were the "barn finds" and re-compliancing is an expense which may not be warranted. BUT they should be able to comply with WOF type scrutiny. (As Bob has expressed very succinctly)

No I think some how we need to keep the fabrication of components out of it ,might sound strange comimg from one who has built a few cars,but if you are not careful you open the floodgate ,Shock absorbers that is a bit of a hard one ,back years ago I used to repair and modify my own lever type shocks,granted they were never put on a shock dyno or similar ,but the approach is the same as it used to be tuning with out a Dyno etc ,common sense and the seat of your pants ,I am not suggesting however that we go down that path as these days you could buy a decent pair of shock for a fraction of the cost of trying to rebush,reseal and modify a pair of levers ,long time back in the past we used to make up a replacement assembly that replaced the lever shocks on A35 and A40 etc ,it was a steel bracket and bush assembly ,it was not tubular and did not use any rod ends or similar ,I would believe something like this that was sort of period may be the answer ,other firms and people made them as well ,somewhere there will be a photo or drawing ,maybe we could adopt that as the guidline ,shocks thats another area that needs to kept under control ,I think once again perhaps they should be period looking ,no alloy ,four way adjutables etc ,perhaps a maximum allowed camber on the front wheels would keep things in check as well ,easy enough policed with a camber guage,as I said before if I can help with my "two bobs worth " just ask

[AMCO72]

Actually I wasn't aware that I had criticised any of what you had proposed.... I questioned the lever arm thing , but otherwise just tossed thoughts around for everyone to comment on. When I went on about the 'rules' bit I was thinking of the Taupo meeting in 1987 when a competitor turned up with a VERY modified car, and there was nothing to say he couldn't do what he did......was all ok as far as he was concerned, because the only 'rule' we had then was for us to abide by the 'spirit of the class'....whatever that meant, and to have a current WOF. So when you proposed this new scheme, I immediately thought "I hope that doesn't happen again". Start out with a clear format and stick to it. I am happy to go along with whatever is suggested ,and if I think I can build something that will conform, I will go along with it....if not I will stay home and do my knitting. There are plenty of much more experienced guys out there than me, who will I'm sure, help to steer this in the right direction. The A35 belongs to Glen Horn......tel....07 827 4147......or Glen Horn Automotive....07 827 9121. His yard is in Gillies St in Cambridge but he is not often there, and has no cell phone so is sometimes hard to locate. In fact he has all sorts of stuff that could be termed 'barn finds' but these two are the ones requiring the least amount of work.

[Jac Mac]

There is an over riding rule that many series have , [[ If it does not say you can do it, then you cannot ]] , It is/was in the HQ series & as tech officers it was very easy to apply to anything we found that was not otherwise covered by the rules, if you dont have something along those lines you end up writing rules for rules. For example if you were state that the original shocks must remain in place, but could be supplemented by the fitting of extra shocks then you open the door to a set of Penske or similar being added, write it so that shocks from pre 1960 can be added its better, write it so that we have to use the originals only, but can modify them as per Bobs example would be quite sensible as that is what we would have done 'in period'.... or have we all forgotten how... or do you not want to get your hands dirty:)

[bob homewood]

3773

Lever shock replacement ,this might provide a bit of thought regarding the lever shock replacement ,this one is for a Healey Sprite ,but is identical to what you would use on a A35 or A40 .The ones we used to make were more basic in the top arm design ,just a pair of shaped steel plates,with a tube for the bushes at each end and a reinforcement in the centre,it would still be more cost effective and better than trying to rebuild the levers in my opinion,ignore the brake set up in this photo I am not suggesting that

[bob homewood]

3774

Another view of the concept ,this one appears to show a more basic top arm variation,more like what we used to make

[Oldfart]

Please guys, I am very flattered by the attention this is getting from such credible and notable names. As the last week has progressed I believe all of us are coming closer to be on the same page, and the very sensible suggestions are most gratefully received.
I do believe that by putting this out for contributions we will end up with a much more "robust" rule than not having done so.
I guess it's getting close to the time where I solicit a list of people who wish to be involved at some level. All that remains is to think of a good way without opening the floodgates to a whole lot os spam emails!
Over the next few days I will make amendments to the "guidelines and repost for further thoughts.
JacMac, I do like the "if it is not on the list" idea.

[Jac Mac]

Couple of other things have been raised in talking about this possible series.
1. At moment you have proposed a 1960 cutoff, is that 31/12/1960 or 1/1/1960.
2. Those Aussie regs used 1958 as a cut-off, might that be a better option if you ever got to the point of inter tasman challenge- just food for thought.
3. Where you have a car model whose time frame extends beyond your cutoff date could such later cars be eligible as long as they conform with cutoff specification..examples 1960 cutoff, both mini & 105e anglia were in production & continued in 1960 formatt til around 1965 in the anglias case anyway, with diminished stocks of suitable donors should later stamped body shells be allowed, Gerald has pointed out the later Farina A40 had a w/base increase so obviously thats out. Lots of other candidates that fit in the same problem area, simca. renault/ skoda etc.

[Oldfart]

Thanks for the input. Here is version 2!

Thoughts for Vintage Racing Saloons.

Below is an amended set of guidelines based on submissions from a number of interested people. This is still a “work in progress”
The intention for this class is to operate within the Vintage Car Club of NZ rules, and is intended as an outlet for members of that club to participate in friendly rivalry with a like -minded group of people. It is NOT intended as an out and out racing class. If a potential entrant is unsure of what is allowed they are encouraged to contact the group who will then make a considered decision. Loophole hunting is heavily discouraged. Any entrant who does not like the rules is encouraged to find another outlet for their endeavours.
Cars.
If the rules do not specifically allow a modification, then it is not allowed
All major components must be made from the same material as originally fitted to the car portrayed. Ie Cast iron blocks, cylinder heads, gearbox case, differential housing, body panels, may not be changed for a lighter material..
The car to be a production saloon which was in production prior to December 31 1960. Onus of proof of this rests with the owner. Variants of saloon, ie staion wagon are acceptable, sports version (non saloon) are not.
Body modifications, ie chop tops, channeling, tail chops etc are specifically banned. The car shall have a full complement of seats as sold, although the drivers’ seat may be replaced with an alternate with better support. Current “wing” seats are discouraged. Should the car have originally have been fitted with a “bench” seat this can be replaced, a front passenger seat shall be fitted.
Bumpers shall be in place.
Hubcaps are not required.
All lights should be in place, headlights taped (as was done and required in period).These must be in working condition.
External trim strips, ie chrome etc. PLEASE DISCUSS, my personal feeling is they should not be compulsory, as in period they were often asked to be removed for safety, also an item that may be difficult and expensive to find.
Floor mats/carpets, if removed the floorpan should be a subtle colour so it is not too obvious.
Steering wheel should be of the period. This is taken to mean that a steering wheel of a diameter not smaller than 50mm smaller than that originally fitted shall be used. Wire spoke wheels are heavily discouraged, rims shall be in sound condition, woodrim wheels must be those constructed with a continuous metal re-inforcement .
Instruments must be period, ie no digital, shift lights etc. Additional instruments may be fitted but must comply with the preceding statement
Windows may be replaced with alternate material, however the fitting of these should appear to be of the original manner. Specifically, bolted on lightweight materials are not allowed, nor are “driver porthole” type windows. The windows shall be in original tracks and at least the drivers’ window shall open in the original manner.
Roll over protection. May be fitted if desired. The design should not be such that reinforcement of the structure is a design criteria.

Engine
To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion. Ie one off engine transplant is not acceptable, but where this was not uncommon would be allowed. Onus of proof as above.
Modifications to the engine.
Only modifications which could have and were been done in the period (pre Dec 60) are acceptable. Ignition systems should appear to be of the type originally fitted.
Specifically electronic systems are allowed, but must be of the type installed primarily inside the distributor. Management systems are specifically disallowed.
Carburettors shall be of a type available in the period of the car.


Suspension
Suspension systems may be modified. Springs shall be of the type originally fitted. Ie torsion bars, coil springs or leaf springs must stay as the sole form of springing The rate, length, thickness, may be altered but the original attachment points must be used. Cars may be lowered to road legal limits.
Shock absorbers may be added, replaced with an alternate form, however onus of proof of the availability of the unit used being available in the pre- 1961 period rests with the entrant. Externally adjustable shock absorbers, and adjustable spring platforms are specifically disallowed.
Axle location should remain the same as original, but additional members may be added, ie panhard rods, Watts linkages, tramp bars, as long as the primary location remains. Test of this to be detach one end of any rod and the car remains suspended..

Brakes
Must remain in the same form as originally sold. Ie if sold with drum brakes, no conversion to discs is allowed. Brake scoops, ventilated back plates, Alfin type drums are allowed. Brake lining material is free. Conversion from rod or cable to hydraulic is acceptable. A secondary form of braking is recommended, even if it is only handbrake.

Wheels
Must be of a size which could have been fitted in the period. This automatically means that widened wheels are not acceptable as this process was not in place until later in the 60s. Alternate wheels, eg van versions, 13” rims on original centres, Vauxhall wheels on Ford 10, wheels from a later version (pre 60) are acceptable Any wheel which is known to be of a suspect standard may be replaced, as long as the diameter and width is respected. Appearance of the wheel must be of a period type.
Tyres
Must be of no lower profile than 65 series, road tyres. Ie no race or semi race tyres are allowed. They should be available readily without specialist suppliers.

Presentation
The car should be presented to a reasonable standard. The spectator should be able to expect to see cars of reasonable standard, no primer, dents etc unless sustained at the same meeting, although contact between cars would result in questions being asked of both parties.

EXTRA
It has been suggested that a car having been allowed at one meeting does not, as of right, qualify for any other. Additional restrictions may become needed as the use of these cars becomes more common. All modifications should be reversible without disagreement, discussion is fine, argument is not!

[Oldfart]

Hi JacMac, the rule of Dec 31 1960 is a vintage car club date. Most countries have specifically disallowed the Mini and 105e.
The advice from the speed steward is that later versions (continuation models) are on a case by case basis. Perhaps an earlier date would be a wise thought. We will toss this around. Perhaps people should be thinking of the earlier cars rather than trying to get the latest possible car? My own one is likely to be a 1956,(if I can get the rust issues sorted) even though a 1960 would be much easier!

[bob homewood]

I have got a few photos ,articles etc I have collected over the years which apertain to this older era stuff we are talking about here ,I thought I might post it in this thread ,if you think it should be in a thread of its own let me know and I will do so before I post anymore ,they might be of interest and create a bit of conversation
This photo shows how it is possible to modify the Peugot Cylinder head,to give you four inlet ports ,inserting some tubes and epoxing them in place

3779

[Oldfart]

That is wonderful, especially seeing as the car parked outside my garage is a 203! Only issue is that the panel beater/welder I had round earlier today reckons it would cost "many thousands" to become OK! The word of the day is "Oh F*&^"

[bob homewood]

The 203 is a bit like the Borgward ,something I would have liked to have done ,mainly I guess to satisfy my mechanical curiosity.thats the only down side of what we are trying to do ,to find something that is not eaten away by the ravishes of time,guess I am lucky in some ways because a lot of it I can do myself ,but I am being sensible about it as I have heap of other things happening in my life as well

[Oldfart]

A thought has been raised, what sort of "testing" needs to be done to establish that corrosion and braking systems are of a suitable standard?
In the "good old days" scrutineering would have picked this up, now there is not really scrutineering, just a check that the self check item audit takes place.
Run it through a WOF check even if it's not going on the road?

[thunder427]

....OK,latest toy is a 1957 Morris Minor,2door,MGB (Worked!)5speed Celica box,Morris Marina rear end,Disc brake conversion front end,low as shark shit!!pretend 'Minilites 2007 Alfa seats...registered....Fast and Furious !!!!!!!.......have we thought of an 'open section' for people like myself and Paul Kirk:):):):)........regards thunder427/MJ:cool:

[Oldfart]

Simple answer, yes we have thought of such cars, took about 2 seconds, find another place to play!
Cars like this would kill it all before they got as far as the grid.
Neat car, but NOT what is wanted.

[Jac Mac]

If your going to allow mods like the peugeot with epoxied inlet runners above you might as well forget it, how long before someone drills new inlet ports in a siamese inlet head to make it flow better with downdraft carbs etc & they start getting real improvements in power, what next, a Skoda with all the sleeves bored offset & an 8 port head, would go like a cracker.

[AMCO72]

Thunder427.......you and I have done a bit of sparing on this forum so we KNOW where we are coming from, but your latest outburst can't go unchallenged. I am amazed that you should suggest such a stupid and frivolous thing as to try to get a MODIFIED Morris Minor as you indicated, into this new class of racing. If Oldfart IS an old fart, then you are in danger of sending him over the edge....he could well have had a heart-attack already for all I know. Of course we dont know whether Oldfart, is in fact old, because most of us dont know WHO he is. I didnt even challenge you when you accused me of calling my Mother 'an old bitch'!!!!! But this is going too far. I demand that you extend an immediate apology to Oldfart, and refrain from such hurtful and damaging remarks in the future. Failure to do so will result in my canceling my subscription to 'roaringseason'. If you weren't so far away I would I would send my whanau brothers around to give you a hiding!!!!!!!!! lol.

[thunder427]

:o
Thunder427.......you and I have done a bit of sparing on this forum so we KNOW where we are coming from, but your latest outburst can't go unchallenged. I am amazed that you should suggest such a stupid and frivolous thing as to try to get a MODIFIED Morris Minor as you indicated, into this new class of racing. If Oldfart IS an old fart, then you are in danger of sending him over the edge....he could well have had a heart-attack already for all I know. Of course we dont know whether Oldfart, is in fact old, because most of us dont know WHO he is. I didnt even challenge you when you accused me of calling my Mother 'an old bitch'!!!!! But this is going too far. I demand that you extend an immediate apology to Oldfart, and refrain from such hurtful and damaging remarks in the future. Failure to do so will result in my canceling my subscription to 'roaringseason'. If you weren't so far away I would I would send my whanau brothers around to give you a hiding!!!!!!!!! lol.

.......one lady owner, Modified Morris Minor 'FOR SALE',too Fast for older owner in the 'twilight of his career,Whanau residents do not need to apply as vehicle is possibly on the small size.....................need money to maintain subscription of favourite forum,whose fees may have just shot up in my case!!!!...............for ever respectful to eldery people ..........under427?MJ:o:o:o:o:)

[Oldfart]

Hell, you think that Thunders neat car would offend me, no chance, just has other places to play!
In regards an old fart, just a couple of years away from the gold card. If you did read my "intro yourself" much is revealed. In the "good old days" I waved flags so that most of the contributors here, at least Bob, Gerald, Thunder, GeeBee, could go and play, so I have been around for a wee while. Raglan, Pukekohe, BayPark, Ruapuna, Timaru all had me leaning on a marshal post somewhere. Taupo wasn't thought of by the time I meandered away.
JacMac, the "rule" reads that modifications of the period, and onus of proof on the entrant. Clearly the Pug head which Bob showed WAS done in the period, as was the supercharged one which I showed. The Euros were not quite as far behind the 8 ball as we imagined, or were perhaps lead to believe.
The 203 raced by Doug Lawrence and later by Graeme and Bryan had twin SU's by this method, and one run in Nelson at Tahunanui (first car on the scene of the Giff Tait fatality) also used this, as did the Formula Junior 203 motor. On thoses bases alone it could be easily argued that it would be legal. Wheter it's in the spirit would need discussion, but would be readily taken back to another phase by simple replacement of the head if the group was unhappy, and I, for one, would be happy to abide by that decision. As outlined in the guidelines!

[AMCO72]

Thunder427......am I dreaming or isn't this how we used to do it in the 50's. Find some old 'pile-of-pus' and jamb a big motor in and go racing? When you think of a Morrie with steering rack instead of box, which a lot of fifties cars had, makes a lot of sense. Would love to see a photo of this car, or does it just exist in your head. And by the way, I don't notice much remorse in your reply, and just putting the car up for sale is not going to sooth frayed nerves.

[pallmall]

This thread is extremely interesting, and I for one cannot wait for the next Roycroft meet to see what eventuates.

On the other hand, I think some of the posts on here really belong in Yards and Yarns!

[bob homewood]

Yep the Pug head info was definately pre 60 ,it was offered more out of interest than anything else ,SU carbs yep still got a bit of a soft spot for them ,and you can do some interesting things with them ,I wouldnt write them out of my future if I decide to do something ,Now heres something to rock the boat ,and the car came out in 1959,sorry the photo is so old and crinkled ,but I have been drooling over it for around fifty years ,Thunder will know what it is,its probably on his Lotto wish list as well

3797

[GeebeeNZ]

I enjoyed Geralds comments "this how we used to do it in the 50's. Find some old 'pile-of-pus' and jamb a big motor in and go racing?". In the 1960s when they used to scrutineer cars at the Auckland testing station the night before an event I remember a certain Austin A35. Top Lynndale Athletic club runner and Auckland Car Club member Eddie Rompleberg and his mates had shoehorned a Zephyr motor into an A35 and were negotiating with the Scrutineers to try and get it passed. I think the paint was still wet on it. Whether it was allowed to run or not I never found out. For some reason I have never forgotten the horrid looking thing but thats what blokes did to go racing.

[bob homewood]

I enjoyed Geralds comments "this how we used to do it in the 50's. Find some old 'pile-of-pus' and jamb a big motor in and go racing?". In the 1960s when they used to scrutineer cars at the Auckland testing station the night before an event I remember a certain Austin A35. Top Lynndale Athletic club runner and Auckland Car Club member Eddie Rompleberg and his mates had shoehorned a Zephyr motor into an A35 and were negotiating with the Scrutineers to try and get it passed. I think the paint was still wet on it. Whether it was allowed to run or not I never found out. For some reason I have never forgotten the horrid looking thing but thats what blokes did to go racing.
Yes I remember that one , I have told a couple of people about it and they didn't believe me I am not sure ,But I have a funny idea I might have seen it at a Sprint after that and it rings a bell that it tore the rear spring hanger out of the rusty chassis rail,I am not sure if it was the same car for certain as I was too busy to pay a lot of attention to it

[GeebeeNZ]

I may be odd but in a Regularity field at Eastern Creek last October that included an Alfa Tipo C 8C, 250F Maserati, Old Yella, a Mallock and a number of English Sports Cars it was the Simca Aronde that fascinated me. According to the sign on the side it is running under Category Na but note the negative camber and modern sticky road tyres.

[thunder427]

I may be odd but in a Regularity field at Eastern Creek last October that included an Alfa Tipo C 8C, 250F Maserati, Old Yella, a Mallock and a number of English Sports Cars it was the Simca Aronde that fascinated me. According to the sign on the side it is running under Category Na but note the negative camber and modern sticky road tyres.

....Na,probably stands for 'Not Applicable'.....................'Not Always' correct,but still smiling after all these years :) ..........regards thunder427/MJ:cool:

[thunder427]

Hell, you think that Thunders neat car would offend me, no chance, just has other places to play!
In regards an old fart, just a couple of years away from the gold card. If you did read my "intro yourself" much is revealed. In the "good old days" I waved flags so that most of the contributors here, at least Bob, Gerald, Thunder, GeeBee, could go and play, so I have been around for a wee while. Raglan, Pukekohe, BayPark, Ruapuna, Timaru all had me leaning on a marshal post somewhere. Taupo wasn't thought of by the time I meandered away.
JacMac, the "rule" reads that modifications of the period, and onus of proof on the entrant. Clearly the Pug head which Bob showed WAS done in the period, as was the supercharged one which I showed. The Euros were not quite as far behind the 8 ball as we imagined, or were perhaps lead to believe.
The 203 raced by Doug Lawrence and later by Graeme and Bryan had twin SU's by this method, and one run in Nelson at Tahunanui (first car on the scene of the Giff Tait fatality) also used this, as did the Formula Junior 203 motor. On thoses bases alone it could be easily argued that it would be legal. Wheter it's in the spirit would need discussion, but would be readily taken back to another phase by simple replacement of the head if the group was unhappy, and I, for one, would be happy to abide by that decision. As outlined in the guidelines!

Oldfart,the MM is a reality,the family I'm aquiring it from ,bought it when there son was born,put the baby in the back for safe motoring days ,he know has a family of his own,talanted young Automotive Engineer with a RS500 in his collection that is close to perfect,a wooden race boat you would die for,great family,old school values,I feel privilaged to be offered this great little car...it will be like the 1960's again terrorising the residents of Sumner and Redcliffs;)..........requires 'cosmetic overhaul' photo's will follow when project starts.......to be honest surrounded daily by Corvette's and Camaro's,this little MM has got my attention........would love to do some Hill Climbs before old Arther Itis kicks in ...regards thunder427/MJ:):cool:

[Carlo]

A number of possibilities leap to mind but I would follow the footsteps of my boyhood heros Harold Heasley and Sammy Mills and build something along the lines of a Humber 80 or Hillman Minx. I might have a Super Gold Card but as I have rediscovered this past rally season I have not lost my desire to perform to the best of my ability and while the likes of a Studebaker appeals, you still have to stop the bloody thing and get it around a corner and I very much doubt if the Stude could do that any better now than it did when it was new.

One car no one has mentioned yet is the early Vauxhal Victor, I used to hate the things with a passion but if you look at what Avon Hyde achieved with those engines, plus give the thing a diet, slip a CA Bedford diff ratio in and throw away those heavy bumper bars as the new exhaust system would not fit through them you could have one that sneaks through under the radar here

[RogerH]

I've just been lurking on this thread but what about a pre 1960 Fiat 1100 saloon with a Formula Junior spec Fiat 103 engine. The Formula Junior Fiat engine derived from this car and was modified in period (pre 1960) with twin Webers, 8 port head, high compression, piano top pistons etc. Claimed period power was around 90 bhp from the 1089cc engine and other modifications were such things as Gatto twin shoe drum brakes.
I suppose the same could apply to an A30 with a Formula Junior period spec A Series race engine.
Would these configurations comply?

[AMCO72]

Carlo......the Studebaker would certainly be a bit of a mission getting round corners, but hey it would be fun trying. As for braking...mmmmmm dont know. That is going to be a problem with ALL the larger cars, as I said in another post ,this is where the little guys have an advantage......they loose in the HP stakes but make it up in agility. And RogerH, when I was working on the dairy farm in Leeston, [see Yards & Yarns 92] we had as a hack a Fiat 1100 Multipla.....sort of a station wagon, but entry was on the side rather than the back, for obvious reasons. We severely tested it's load- carrying capacity on a number of occasions when we took sacks of potatoes to the Christchurch markets. Loaded to the gunwales it was!!! I have driven that thing the 30 miles from the farm to the market and NEVER got into top gear. Must have been made of tough stuff because it was still running when I left 2 years later, so that engine could take a beating in a race-car. Don't know how many revs it was doing, but I wasn't giving it ANY mercy...in fact I was trying to blow it up....didnt succeed though!

[Oldfart]

I am STILL confused as to why almost everyone here has to try to be the one to come up with the out and out racer. This is intended for a fun way for people to thrash around a circuit at speeds above what they can legally do on the road. At the last Roycroft Harry had his Light 15 thrashing around and at the end of the day put the muffler back on, through the picnic basket on the back seat and went home with a huge grin.
That is the spirit of the thing IMHO.
You DO NOT HAVE TO BUILD A RACING CAR. If I had the money and not so many other projects on the go I would buy something like an A35 go and use it then modify as I went along.

[bob homewood]

I am STILL confused as to why almost everyone here has to try to be the one to come up with the out and out racer. This is intended for a fun way for people to thrash around a circuit at speeds above what they can legally do on the road. At the last Roycroft Harry had his Light 15 thrashing around and at the end of the day put the muffler back on, through the picnic basket on the back seat and went home with a huge grin.
That is the spirit of the thing IMHO.
You DO NOT HAVE TO BUILD A RACING CAR. If I had the money and not so many other projects on the go I would buy something like an A35 go and use it then modify as I went along.
That is believe it or not my thoughts as well ,if you want to be stupid go off and do it somewhere else ,I can see its only meant to be a fun thing ,granted I have suggested a couple of out of the way projects ,but have really done so to inject a bit of interest and thought into the whole thing , I have enough high pressure do or die efforts going on in my work,with out anymore ,what appeals to me is perhaps the chance to use my creative thinking and have a bit of fun doing it ,the chance of playing around with SU carbs ,superchargers etc appeals to me ,to be honest I am not really worried if I win or not ,if the tyres go off or the drum brakes fade so be it ,I will do what I have done all my life and drive it accordingly and have a bit of fun doing so , my own view is that perhaps the class will attract some people who want to race ,a VW ,Fiat or Studebaker ,they will all present their own challenges to get going and sort out ,the biggest hurdle I see at the moment is finding cars that are not just a unsafe rusty hulk ,yes I know there are good restored examples out there but they are in that condition for a very good reason ,most of them are being cherished and not beaten around a race track ,at the end of the day I think we have to realise this is about having a bit of fun and not creating Supercars,I think thats why the rules have to laid down with some firm guidelines before we even start,and Old Fart I think I was one of the people who got the biggest kick out of seeing that Light 15 out there ,I talked about it for weeks afterwards

[Shano]

Oldfart - haven't you heard the saying that the first motorcycle race started about the same time as the second motorcycle was built. Same sentiment applies with cars - someone is always going to want to win and thrashing a standard engine around a race course is only going to go in one direction - bang. Once you start modifying where do you stop?

[Oldfart]

Shano, totally agree, read the EXTRA on the end of the guidelines! :)

[thunder427]

...at the risk of the of the Whanau Brothers gettin a cheap flight to Australia,the Morris Minor was 'tounge in Check',I've done a deal as stated to own this great little car with a history,what started this 'flash back' was a class/event they have in the States

you have a budget of $5000 to buy,build,blast around,this car that I saw on this site was a dark green Morris Minor two door,it actually featured in 'Vintage Racer' magazine,I shall try to find the thread/forum..........its a real ,"Shit yea lets do that"!!!!

Oldfart,I don't wish to get into designing this concept,which by the way certainly has merrit,perhaps we have to look at the '30% rule'...as 30% modified EG;change the carb because lack of parts/ava,but new carb must have same venturi size (600cfm)and side draft if that was how it was in its stock configuration,I was involved with a simular concepts on a USA based vehicle,I bailed from the reg discussions when they were contemplating 'New' gen Blocks to get around the up30th bore size,I would rather bore the block than shell out for a new one......but I'm propably drifting...opps is that a knock at the door,,Phew!!! cant be the Bro's they wouldnt Knock........regards thunder427/:)MJ

[105angria]

hey Oldfart 105e is out would a 107e be ok

[thunder427]

[QUOTE=thunder427;5729]...at the risk of the of the Whanau Brothers gettin a cheap flight to Australia,the Morris Minor was 'tounge in Check',I've done a deal as stated to own this great little car with a history,what started this 'flash back' was a class/event they have in the States

you have a budget of $5000 to buy,build,blast around,this car that I saw on this site was a dark green Morris Minor two door,it actually featured in 'Vintage Racer' magazine,I shall try to find the thread/forum..........its a real ,"Shit yea lets do that"!!!!:)

..Found it ,check this out www.youtube/watch?v=hG5Av8DBvsl .........this the green Minor in action....regards thunder427/MJ:cool:

[Steve Holmes]

OK, serious question here Oldfart. In your wording on engines in the guidelines you've put together so far say this:

"Engine
To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion. Ie one off engine transplant is not acceptable, but where this was not uncommon would be allowed. Onus of proof as above.
Modifications to the engine".

A "common conversion" for pre-war American coupes in NZ road racing was to fit an OHV V8 into them. I have a 1938 Ford Deluxe coupe that I'm slowly building as a tradtional hot rod, using all period parts, eg, 15" Mercury wheels, cross-ply tyres, 4-wheel drum brakes, etc. If I were to look into finishing the car as a double-threat-coupe, ie, one that could be used on the road and raced, can I fit an OHV V8 engine in place of the flathead, as a "common conversion" if the engine is pre-1960? As stated, the OHV V8s were a common conversion during this period. But, in your wording you've also said "one off engine transplant is not acceptable", so can you clarify?

A 1938 Ford coupe on cross-ply tyres with 4-wheel drum brakes would be bloody slow, even with a more powerful engine, but would be a lot of fun!

[nigel watts]

A likely candidate?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dedlinz/5955782591/in/photostream

[Oldfart]

Sorry to take so long with a response for you Steve. Sounds just fine according to the group, as long as the engine and it's mods are from the period.

[Oldfart]

QUOTE=nigel watts;5944]A likely candidate?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dedlinz/5955782591/in/photostream[/QUOTE]

It will buff up just fine. Anyone remember the Guardsvan which ran in the group 5 days ay Puke etc?

[thunder427]

QUOTE=nigel watts;5944]A likely candidate?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dedlinz/5955782591/in/photostream

It will buff up just fine. Anyone remember the Guardsvan which ran in the group 5 days ay Puke etc?[/QUOTE]

...... Now there is a thought!!!!!....Bruce Kinsett / Vanguard / Blue / Waimate area possible, down south of ChCh at least, ran at Wigram with Heasley/Sprauge etc, late 60's...........regards thunder427/MJ

[Steve Holmes]

Sorry to take so long with a response for you Steve. Sounds just fine according to the group, as long as the engine and it's mods are from the period.

Thanks for your responce. Thats great!

[Oldfart]

It will buff up just fine. Anyone remember the Guardsvan which ran in the group 5 days ay Puke etc?

...... Now there is a thought!!!!!....Bruce Kinsett / Vanguard / Blue / Waimate area possible, down south of ChCh at least, ran at Wigram with Heasley/Sprauge etc, late 60's...........regards thunder427/MJ[/QUOTE]
I only saw it at Puke, notable commentators comment was along the lines of " and here comes the Guardsvan at the end of the train"

[AMCO72]

Right, I took Oldfarts advice and applied for, and got, a Historic Racing licence from the VCC. Piece of cake, cheap, and lasts for 5 years. I have now applied for a COD for the Amco mini from the club, but this is not quite so instant. But thats OK, I am a patient man, sometimes. Apparently there needs to be some 'discussion' among the officials to determine whether the car meets the criteria of the club. However, we have a problem straight away......there is a cut-off date of 1960 for cars participating in speed events. Can someone tell me why that is. Surely if a vehicle is accepted in the club as a p60 then it should be able to participate in ALL events, not just non speed events. Which brings me back to Oldfarts class of 1950's saloons with no, or minimal, modifications. Surely these are already catered for in the VCC, although, yes his won't have to have rego and wof. I think people are going to be put off having to spend money on cars that will only have a couple of meetings a year, without having to cart them all over the country. I have written to the Speed steward of the VCC asking for his comments on the 1960 cut-off, but so far a deafening silence has ensued. Oldfart, you seem to be up to speed, as it were, with VCC stuff, perhaps you can enlighten me on this perplexing problem, and perhaps that is why you have suggested this new class because you have come up against officialdom.

[AMCO72]

I have just got my latest copy of NZ Classic Driver, and lo-and-behold the ubiquitous Allan Dick is questioning this very topic in 'smoking a grey pipe'. He calls the decision, a 1960 cut off'...daft!!!!!! He goes on to call into question COD's and how the Custaxie is side-lined at the present because it doesn't quite meet 'requirements'. Could include Harold Heasly's Humber 80 in that too. It ran without bumpers in the old days, but these appendages are being insisted upon by officialdom. The Humber is still a very 'original as raced' car so cant understand this thinking at all. For Gods sake do we want to see these cars or not?????

[RogerH]

I think the issues with the "Custaxie" are different to the Heasley Humber 80. If the Humber is in the configuration it ran in period then it can run today under MSNZ regulations. The problem with the "Custaxie" as I understand it, was that the replica was meant to be built to MSNZ regulations that allowed for such cars to be built as they were in period - that is what they were meant to represent. However, the "Custaxie replica" was not as it was in period in that it used a number of modern bits that improved it from what it originally was.
I think the rationale was that if it represented that it was the Custaxie then it should be as close to original as possible - if it was just a Custaxie look-a-like with say, modern big disc brakes then it shouldn't be called the Custaxie.

[Steve Holmes]

Right, I took Oldfarts advice and applied for, and got, a Historic Racing licence from the VCC. Piece of cake, cheap, and lasts for 5 years. I have now applied for a COD for the Amco mini from the club, but this is not quite so instant. But thats OK, I am a patient man, sometimes. Apparently there needs to be some 'discussion' among the officials to determine whether the car meets the criteria of the club. However, we have a problem straight away......there is a cut-off date of 1960 for cars participating in speed events. Can someone tell me why that is. Surely if a vehicle is accepted in the club as a p60 then it should be able to participate in ALL events, not just non speed events. Which brings me back to Oldfarts class of 1950's saloons with no, or minimal, modifications. Surely these are already catered for in the VCC, although, yes his won't have to have rego and wof. I think people are going to be put off having to spend money on cars that will only have a couple of meetings a year, without having to cart them all over the country. I have written to the Speed steward of the VCC asking for his comments on the 1960 cut-off, but so far a deafening silence has ensued. Oldfart, you seem to be up to speed, as it were, with VCC stuff, perhaps you can enlighten me on this perplexing problem, and perhaps that is why you have suggested this new class because you have come up against officialdom.

Gerald, I would love to see a class come together for original racing saloons that actually competed in NZ up to, say, 1973. This would be for the actual cars, or acurate replicas of, if the original no longer exists. It would encompass the actual cars of the late '50s, the early '60s, the Allcomers, Group 2, and Group 5, that raced up until 1973. It'd be interesting to put together a list of cars that would fit. I think there would be quite a reasonable number.

[AMCO72]

Good thinking Steve, and I wonder just how many original cars, or nearly so, are out there. As far as Minis are concerned,not many, as a lot of the old BNSW and early Shellsport cars were converted to Mini 7's where life is measured in months rather than years. The problem is that owners are unwilling to risk their machines in the current series of races. For example, Alan Drinkrow has just had the Arden Mini restored by Paul Costin in Christchurch at vast expense. Is a magnificent job, but we are unlikely to see it on the track....maybe a demonstration but that would be all. Graeme Philips has purchased BK842, the car his Father Barry campained so successfully in the early 70's, and although it is a long way from completion, it too will be only driven at selected venues in demonstration mode. You can understand these guys in their thinking and I am a bit biased that way too, and although Angus and I have campained the Amco Mini at a number of meetings in the North and South Islands, I am always mindfull of those competitors around me who are SOMETIMES not that careful where they are placing their cars during racing. As the repairing of damage will be done by Angus, I am doubly careful. So as you say, if everybody's car in a race had good history, one would expect the driving to be of a very high caliber, as far as giving racing room and respecting the other guys machinery. I remember at the start of Classic racing in the mid 80's there was zero tolerance to panel damage, and owners would be asked to remove themselves and their cars from the track for misdemeanors. Fine the first year, then everyone started to get keen, and BANG. Ray Green doesnt stand any nonsense from his AES/Tradezone series either, but this doesn't stop things happening in the heat of racing. So somehow we have to strike a happy medium. I dont really want to toddle around 'demonstrating' my car, equally I dont want to be T-Boned at the infield hairpin at HD, so there has to be a solution. At the moment that solution lies somewhere between VCC racing and Festival of Speed events. Yes???

[bob homewood]

A lot of interesting comments there and all worth considering ,I think there comes a time when cars become perhaps too valuable and unique to consider risking damaging them,and over the years I feel I have fixed enough panel damage ,most of it inflicted by other peoples stupidity I might add .when my Escort sports Sedan turns a wheel again like wise it will be for demonstration purposes only.
However the idea of having something else that is not so unique appeals to me ,thats why that 1960 series sounds ok and why I am quite adamant that the mods be restricted to "period " ,I don't think you want a whole lot of people rushing off and building things with alloy adjustable shocks ,four wheel disc brakes ,carbon fibre etc,that will just kill the whole thing before it even gets a chance .I have some firm ideas on what and what not should be allowed,and no way should the flood gates be opened ,I have already heard some comments from quarters about what they are going to do ,and I think it needs to be discouraged before it even starts.I would value other folks thoughts on this

[Steve Holmes]

Good thinking Steve, and I wonder just how many original cars, or nearly so, are out there. As far as Minis are concerned,not many, as a lot of the old BNSW and early Shellsport cars were converted to Mini 7's where life is measured in months rather than years. The problem is that owners are unwilling to risk their machines in the current series of races. For example, Alan Drinkrow has just had the Arden Mini restored by Paul Costin in Christchurch at vast expense. Is a magnificent job, but we are unlikely to see it on the track....maybe a demonstration but that would be all. Graeme Philips has purchased BK842, the car his Father Barry campained so successfully in the early 70's, and although it is a long way from completion, it too will be only driven at selected venues in demonstration mode. You can understand these guys in their thinking and I am a bit biased that way too, and although Angus and I have campained the Amco Mini at a number of meetings in the North and South Islands, I am always mindfull of those competitors around me who are SOMETIMES not that careful where they are placing their cars during racing. As the repairing of damage will be done by Angus, I am doubly careful. So as you say, if everybody's car in a race had good history, one would expect the driving to be of a very high caliber, as far as giving racing room and respecting the other guys machinery. I remember at the start of Classic racing in the mid 80's there was zero tolerance to panel damage, and owners would be asked to remove themselves and their cars from the track for misdemeanors. Fine the first year, then everyone started to get keen, and BANG. Ray Green doesnt stand any nonsense from his AES/Tradezone series either, but this doesn't stop things happening in the heat of racing. So somehow we have to strike a happy medium. I dont really want to toddle around 'demonstrating' my car, equally I dont want to be T-Boned at the infield hairpin at HD, so there has to be a solution. At the moment that solution lies somewhere between VCC racing and Festival of Speed events. Yes???

It would have to be approached like any class for historic racing cars Gerald, in that the cars themselves are the most important thing, and that enjoying them and allowing others to enjoy seeing them given a high speed outing is what the class is for. The owners need to feel comfortable that those around them aren't going to tear the side off their car just to win a corner. Like you say, if all the cars are historically significant, the owners should all be like minded.

Maybe we should start another thread on this subject to see how many cars still exist that would be suitable?

[Steve Holmes]

A lot of interesting comments there and all worth considering ,I think there comes a time when cars become perhaps too valuable and unique to consider risking damaging them,and over the years I feel I have fixed enough panel damage ,most of it inflicted by other peoples stupidity I might add .when my Escort sports Sedan turns a wheel again like wise it will be for demonstration purposes only.
However the idea of having something else that is not so unique appeals to me ,thats why that 1960 series sounds ok and why I am quite adamant that the mods be restricted to "period " ,I don't think you want a whole lot of people rushing off and building things with alloy adjustable shocks ,four wheel disc brakes ,carbon fibre etc,that will just kill the whole thing before it even gets a chance .I have some firm ideas on what and what not should be allowed,and no way should the flood gates be opened ,I have already heard some comments from quarters about what they are going to do ,and I think it needs to be discouraged before it even starts.I would value other folks thoughts on this

Yes, I agree with you Bob. Historic racing saloons in NZ, even those built in the '80s for Sports Sedan racing, are now important, significant cars, and should be looked upon as such. I think NZ has some catching up to do in this regard to historic racing saloons. Look at the importance placed on historic Trans-Am cars, and historic IMSA cars in the US now. These cars are still raced, but not at 100%, and there is no emphasis placed on winning, as enjoying the cars for what they are is now more important. They've served a purpose in a previous life to win races. Now they are enjoyed for their history and uniqueness.

The pre-60s saloons is a great idea. It appeals to me also Bob. Not because I want to use it as stepping stone to V8 Supercar racing, but just because I imagine it'd be fun to slide about in an old car built for enjoyment. I think this is what Oldfart had in mind when he first mooted the concept. I agree with you. Certain details would need to be nailed down tight before it gets going.

[AMCO72]

Unfortunately gentlemen we are talking about motor-RACING here, and with the best will in the world, and the best intentions not to do anything silly, I'm afraid it will still happen, that once the lights go out, it's all on. When I am sitting on the grid waiting for this to happen, my accelerator foot is shaking so badly, that I am mentally booking myself into the specialist to check for Parkinsons!!!!! It's called adrenalin, and it needs to be got rid of, quickly, and the way to do it is to drive like a dick-head. Havent you noticed that about half-way through a race things start to calm down, and hey-presto your lap times come down.....amazing.

[Oldfart]

Right, I took Oldfarts advice and applied for, and got, a Historic Racing licence from the VCC. Piece of cake, cheap, and lasts for 5 years. I have now applied for a COD for the Amco mini from the club, but this is not quite so instant. But thats OK, I am a patient man, sometimes. Apparently there needs to be some 'discussion' among the officials to determine whether the car meets the criteria of the club. However, we have a problem straight away......there is a cut-off date of 1960 for cars participating in speed events. Can someone tell me why that is. Surely if a vehicle is accepted in the club as a p60 then it should be able to participate in ALL events, not just non speed events. Which brings me back to Oldfarts class of 1950's saloons with no, or minimal, modifications. Surely these are already catered for in the VCC, although, yes his won't have to have rego and wof. I think people are going to be put off having to spend money on cars that will only have a couple of meetings a year, without having to cart them all over the country. I have written to the Speed steward of the VCC asking for his comments on the 1960 cut-off, but so far a deafening silence has ensued. Oldfart, you seem to be up to speed, as it were, with VCC stuff, perhaps you can enlighten me on this perplexing problem, and perhaps that is why you have suggested this new class because you have come up against officialdom.

A few answers (which might raise more questions).
The Dec 31 1960 cut off is an agreement between FIVA (Vintage version of FIA) and FIA. You are not quite correct re speed events. The manual says 1960 for 'circuit racing". This applies to all the cars Formula Junior, sports cars etc, and explains a bit why there are sometimes Historic Sports cars (eg U2, etc) and pre 1960 as was the case at the Roycroft meeting. It was run with 2 organisations, VCC and the Historic guys and 2 permits, one Motorsport for the "newer" and one for the pre 60 races.
The reason for the saloons was to give some of those who want to drive their saloons a chance to have a bit of a thrash without having to own a sports or race car which is eligible.
In regards officialdom, so far I have found vintage easy to deal with. They are somewhat bound up in trying to remain onside with motorsport, and the above FIVA/FIA agreement.
It does not really suit my personal ideas either, but I am now old enough to realise that I will never be a real race driver (never was capable), don't have the budget and a bit of fun every now and then will do. So vintage suits me. Won't suit everybody, but isn't it good we are not all the same??

[GeebeeNZ]

Gerald and others. One word comes to mind and unfortunateley it is "Money" The reality is that it is much cheaper to race a car in a Vintage Race than it is a Motorsport Race. By extending the vintage racing to the VCC 30 year rule that could encompass most of the Classic Car field and Motorsport NZ would never allow it. The 1960 cutoff has a number of reasons why it seems to be a good cutoff and both Motorsort and VCC have agreed to this for circuit racing. VCC can run newer cars in hillclimbs unless the individual clubs make their own rule. Bob on commenting that rare and collectible cars are too valuable to race. Someone once made the comment "but yes they are always worth fixing if they get damaged."

[Jac Mac]

Unfortunately gentlemen we are talking about motor-RACING here, and with the best will in the world, and the best intentions not to do anything silly, I'm afraid it will still happen, that once the lights go out, it's all on. When I am sitting on the grid waiting for this to happen, my accelerator foot is shaking so badly, that I am mentally booking myself into the specialist to check for Parkinsons!!!!! It's called adrenalin, and it needs to be got rid of, quickly, and the way to do it is to drive like a dick-head. Havent you noticed that about half-way through a race things start to calm down, and hey-presto your lap times come down.....amazing.

Easy way to fix that, run the first half of the race under a 'fast' pace car until you foot stops shaking & adrenalin levels drop then let them go!

[AMCO72]

OK, so thats it then. I can't, and never will be able to run the Mini in a VCC circuit event. So to make use of my newly acquired licence I am going to have to go and dig that Citroen L15 from out of the barn and go racing with Oldfart and his pals!!!!! This is of course why I have had no response from the VCC speed steward. I should have read the rules. OK, I give in. Now where are those knitting needles!!!!!! GeeBeeNZ, you are right that cars can be repaired, but after putting your heart and soul into a restoration there is a great reluctance to go through the whole process again. It has taken us, read Angus, nearly 30 years to track down and reunite the special equipment that was on the Amco Mini when it raced in 1972. He has now done that, mainly through sheer persistance, and because he had the contacts in the racing world to point him in the right direction. If left to me, it is unlikely it would have happened. So getting back to racing cars with historical value, I can quote no better than Mr. Justice Ortton in delivering his verdict on the 'Old Number One Bentley' saga.....".Continuous History is the basis for evaluating a classic car. The car has a life of it's own that transcends the sum of it's parts. A motor car is not a painting or a piece of antique furniture that you put in your house. It is a functional piece of machinery to be driven and enjoyed, and then repaired when it breaks, and driven again. The motor car is a product of the machine age, not the craft age. The obsession in certain quarters with 'all matching numbers' is to loose the sense of what a motor car is, and risk consigning them to mothballs and museums. The thought uppermost in your mind when out driving should NOT be that the car is loosing value if you break the engine."......How very true.

[Oldfart]

I met with a guy at the Weston Super Mare (super mud) speed trials who had a very significant Speed Six Bentley with which he felled a power pole, did no good to the car either. I tried to commiserate with him, his response was "if I can't afford to fix this old racing car when I prang it, I don't deserve to own it". Note the "when" not if.
Gerald, please note I am not getting at you, nor any other enthusiast of historic racing cars. I admire you greatly. If my memory serves me correctly a great number of these cars are way better now than when they raced, and they are fabulous, but at the end of the day, they were racing cars. Most looked good from 10 feet, now they look fabulous from 10 millimetres.
It is great they are preserved, but for what?

[bob homewood]

Old fart , I have got a question ,been chasing up on a couple of "barn finds " .1960 Peugeot 404 ,no doubt that fits into the same scenario as the Anglia / Mini as it carries over in years in the 60's ,also a 1959 Ford 107E the 100E shape with the 997 OHV motor will that fit in the time frame as long as it retains the 997 motor ?

[shellsport]

My goodness a fast back Vanguard !

Fast back Bob . Slow front !

[Oldfart]

Bob, I have not asked others, but in my opinion either of those would be OK. Only reason for the 105E and Mini scenario is they would dominate way too easily. Then again someone like you would make a 107e just as quick I suspect!
Need any bits for the 404? Got a mountain up here!

[AMCO72]

Oldfart, if you look at my comment at the the end of Mr Justice Otton's summing up on the Old No1 Bentley case......'how very true'....this sums up my attitude to cars that are so beautifully restored that the owners are petrified of getting a stone chip on them. I cant see the point....they are cars for Gods sake....meant to be driven. I have/had a friend who found a 4.2 Jaguar E type in Hawaii. He dragged the thing home....thing because it was an utter wreck....and spent years getting it absolutely perfect. Then what? It sat in his garage with a dust sheet over it because he was keeping it mint for the concours events he hoped to win. I got into quite a heated debate with him...hence the have/had......I said, go and win a concours if you must, then get it out and enjoy it. But no, the bloody thing sat there while he got an ulcer worrying about stone chips!!!!!! The same with old race cars and the Amco Mini is no exception. I am a hopeless race driver and it shows, so my nervousness on the track....shakey feet etc....does not translate into fast lap times. Angus on the other hand takes the poor car out gives it a hiding to within an inch of it's life!! I cant do that; I'm worrying that things might 'happen'. But he is a professional...you cant think like that in NZV8's if you want to win. So perhaps I should take a notice of what Mr Justice Otton said........'when out driving the thing uppermost in your mind should NOT be that the car is loosing value if you break the engine'. But dont worry Oldfart, we will keep competing in the car.....so long as MSNZ will give me a licence to do so. The attraction with the VCC was that racing is still fairly gentlemanly, however I have been thwarted in that department. And dont worry about 'getting at me'.....I can give just as good as I get, if necessary!

[Steve Holmes]

The way I see it, an old race car has lived two lives and served two purposes in life.

Its first life is that where it is just a tool created to win races. As soon as it is no longer competitive its either sold on or updated to remain competitive, but invariably time eventually catches up with it.

Its second life is that of an historic race car, resurrected and freshened up or restored back to how it was in its first life (or better in many cases). Its purpose in life now is to bring a sense of enjoyment both to its owner and to enthusiasts of motorsport history.

If an old race car makes it beyond its first life and to its second life, it deserves a certain amount of respect that it didn't enjoy when new. But at the same time, it is still a racing car, and is far more enjoyable when brought to life than it is sat silent behind a roped off fence.

To me, the ideal scenario is to create somewhere for these cars to race, not in a win at all costs environment as they were when new, but at a speed that the owner is comfortable with, and against cars of similar ilk, and like-minded owners. When restoring an old race car, to get the car as accurate as possible, while at the same time still making it usable, the car will never be as fast as a newly built car built specifically for historic racing, and using all the modern tricks and knowledge put into them.

So ideally, you want to somehow create a class for these historic machines, where the owners can get out and give them a good flogging, but without the fear some other guy will tear the side off it because he is trying to win a corner.

I do agree with Oldfarts comments above, race cars need to be used, but at the same time, I think for the owners of historic racing cars, they shouldn't be placed in a situation where they have to repair damage. At least not body damage. Mechanical damage is a different scenario, and something the owner has more control over.....ie, how heavy is his right foot?

[faminz]

oooo... I gather from this thread I could finally do something with my 1959 Bugeye Sprite?
Its just sitting in the shed wasting licence fees at the moment...

see Steve I dont just draw and collect models only!!! heh

course I think Im in the category of "I cant afford to fix it again so I cant race it"... lol

ps: the pic was after a Christmas tree run a couple of years ago... its main yearly use!!

[AMCO72]

Yeh, the shakey right foot!!! Very well put Steve, couldn't have said it better myself. I will let you into a secret. Before Angus set about re-restoring the Amco Mini, after I had done the initial restoration in 1984, and it's inversion at the Hamilton Classic Street Race in 1994, we actually considered doing a replica of the car to use as a race car, and keep the original safe and intact. I shudder to think that we were having thoughts in that direction now, but never-the-less it's true. I know this is has been done in the UK with important old race cars but probably not Minis'!!!!! I mean ,what enjoyment would you get piloting the false 'Amco Mini'. Thats the whole point of the car....you are in the ACTUAL machine that did the business all those years ago. One of the most satisfying things that has happened since we got the car is re-uniting both Rod Collingwood and Dave Panckhurst with it at the Bruce McLaren Festival of speed, and when Rod took me as a passenger, out for some demonstration laps at Pukekohe the following weekend, I couldn't stop grining for a week!!! He was talking me round a lap of the circuit, a bit slower than what he did way back when, but it was a fascinating experience. Funny thing though, he was looking for a 5th gear down the back straight......he had forgotten what 8000 revs sounded like, and he used to regularly rev to 10,000!!!!!!! Angus is putting a VERY special engine together for the car now with a lot of those special performance enhancing bits that were on it back then. It has been a long process, with a lot of detective work, but it's coming together. I will probably be very nervous thinking of all the effort that has gone into it, but I have no doubt he will take it out and have no mercy on it, just as Rod did.

[Oldfart]

oooo... I gather from this thread I could finally do something with my 1959 Bugeye Sprite?
Its just sitting in the shed wasting licence fees at the moment...

see Steve I dont just draw and collect models only!!! heh

course I think Im in the category of "I cant afford to fix it again so I cant race it"... lol

ps: the pic was after a Christmas tree run a couple of years ago... its main yearly use!!

If you wanted you could run this with the "postwar/pre 60 sports cars".

[Oldfart]

Wouldn't it be so cool to have a place for everybody and whatever they want to run. Now I would have to win Lotto a number of times over, and then have a class for; Shellsports cars, historic sports cars, Group 5 saloons, allcomers, single seaters which ran any time (say) pre 77, F5000, FF, F Vee and keep going forever! Of course I would then build a circuit (or hire endless days at HD) and have them all run for $25 a day. What a dream. Bugger, I just woke up.
We all have a favourite bent, in my case a fair few! Can we think of a "Roaring Season Meeting" where all can run? I think HD might actually be pretty co-operative.Would the crowds show up? On the surface this sounds really stupid, but when I hesitated to think it might just work??
I have a very good friend from South Africa where all the historics run together according to lap times. Separate groups, so perhaps Angus runs the Mini in one class (the fast one) and Gerald runs in the next slower in the same car, Obviously the open wheelers can't run with the saloons, but... or am I just being really dumb, and I only had 2 JDs tonight!

[pallmall]

Go back 50 years and less, and how many classes were there? Formula Libre which usually included the faster racing sportscars. Sportscars maybe 0-1500cc and 1501cc and over, which included racing and road cars. Saloons 0-1500cc and 1501cc and over, which like the sportscars included everything modified and stock.
So, why can't historic racing be run like that, but probably split not by capacity, but by lap times. Makes perfect sense to me, and when is the first meeting?

[AMCO72]

Pallmall, there is never going to be a fair way of doing this. Motoracing has never been fair. Doesn't matter what you come up with, someone is going to be unhappy. I had a good talk with Michael Sexton, one of the organisers, after the Bruce McLaren festival where I asked him why they decided on grouping cars by decades rather than lap times. I pointed out that most of the spectators wouldn't have had a clue whether a car was a 1967 or a 1974 model, and frankly they couldn't have cared less. What they wanted to see, I think, was cars of SIMILAR performance in the same race. As it turned out the Amco Mini and the Sidchrome Imp got lapped. Now if there is one thing I dont like, and that is being lapped. I will quote you his reply to me here........Speed Groups vs Period Groups...."I agree with your comments. We did debate many options at length, including speed groups, prior to deciding on period groups. In hind sight speed groups would have worked better. However, in fairness we had no idea of the types of cars that would enter, or the speed differentials that we would need to deal with. We had resolved that we would not entertain the complexity of running handicap races and so thought we would be able to manage the speed differentials in the two groups. Truth is we didn't expect the 20+ sec per lap difference that we had. I think our group, 70's saloons, managed this quite well and I didnt see any silly passing, not that I saw much from my position....end quote. Of course rain is a great leveler, but we dont want it to rain, do we. I dont think we are straying too far from Oldfarts thread here because I fear that this is going to rear it's ugly head in his propossed class. Would be nice to think that we will all go out and have races within races, and when this happens is often more entertaining than the hot-shots out the front going for the chequered flag.I can see merit Pallmall in your idea, but I can hear a powerful lobby saying...like it or lump it. Talking about being lapped. In one race, one of the competitors was Ray Williams, an enormously experienced and capable driver. I took Ray to one side before the race and told him that I would keep a sharp eye out for him when he inevitably lapped me on about the 5th lap....that I would maintain my line and for him to pick which ever side suited him. Common sense you would think, but not to some turkeys, and I trusted Ray to do that which was very comforting, especially with speed difference between the two cars.

[kiwi285]

How about one of these to get everyone fired up.

http://i52.tinypic.com/14xizo.jpg

[Oldfart]

Look good don't they. It would not fit the proposed rules with those wheels and tyres though. Note that this is an Nb car from Aus. Na is the closer rule.

[Steve Holmes]

OK, re having too many classes, I'm just thinking out loud here:

1. Pre-1960 Saloons (as per Oldfarts VCC category)

2. Pre-1973 Historic Saloons. This category is for the actual cars that raced in NZ (or other countries) prior to December 31 1973, and presented as they raced during this period. No slick tyres! This would include Allcomers, Group 2, Group 5, Castrol GTX, B&H 500 cars etc.

3. Pre-1977 under 3000cc, to Historic T&C rules. This is already beginning to take shape I believe, although I'm not sure how close they are to T&C rules.

4. Pre-1977 over 3,000cc, to T&C Historic Muscle Cars rules. This class debutes at the 2012 BMW Festival.

5. Post 1977 Saloons.

6. Post 1973 Historic Saloons. This would be for OSCA, Shellsport, BNSW, Sports Sedans etc.

So there are 6 classes. Like I say, just brain-storming, although brain-farting may be closer to reality.

[Oldfart]

Sounds pretty close to the mark to me, a place for everybody with an historic interest.

[AMCO72]

Yep, agree. So who is going to set it all in motion.

[Steve Holmes]

Gerald, you'd have different people looking after the different groups. Eg, Dale Mathers has been busy putting together the Historic Muscle Cars (Pre-1977 over 3,000cc) group, working in conjunction with the Historic Racing Club. Evan Munt has done an amazing job bringing the Classic OSCA class together. The Post 1973 Historic Saloons would be based on what he has achieved, though also including cars from other classes etc. I'd need to check, but I'm sure things are happening with the under 3,000cc Pre-1977 Saloons which is also working under HRC.

[Steve Holmes]

Someone may need to confirm, but is the Pre-1977 under 3,000cc T&C group being run by Bernie Hines and Arthur Vowles?

[AMCO72]

Someone wanting a good machine for pre 60's class? Parked on the side of the road at Tamahere just south of Hamilton on SH1 there is a nice original 'looking' Wolseley 4/44 painted maroon. Sticker price.....$5500. Haven't stopped to have a nosey yet, but I will, and if anyone is interested I will check out the owner who must live in the house behind, and get some details. In fact I might just do that anyway. Keep you posted.

[minihaha]

I everyone, I have been reading the threads on this site for a couple of months and absolutely love every part of it. I have raced a 1962 Mk1 Mini in local events for many years and I am a massive fan of the Goodood Revival racing. I could really see myself racing in this class but I have a few questions regarding eligability ( yes I have read the rules). 1. Am I too young (36)? 2. The car I have is a 1959 Mk1 A40 Farina. It has been cleaned up with period mods and a lowered ride height. I have steel wheels for it. BUT I have already built hybrid disc brakes for it using MG Midget uprights and calipers with Mk1 escort hubs and rotors. This was done to keep the stud pattern the same as the 105e anglia Diff in the back and to give me proper cup n cone bearings on the front. 3. The gearbox is of the same casting as the original but is a nissan 5spd for reliability. I was also going to build a 40" over 1275 marina engine for it, with period looks from the outside ( like Kerry Grants car). I haven't built the engine or mounted the box yet so now is a good time to find out if it's worth directing this project towards your class. Any help would be awesome.

[CUSTAXIE50]

can you tell me all what allan dick was going on about the new custaxie,i understand it has been said that they have used parts that were not on the old car.i have asked around about what is new on this car, do you know what the new parts are that they have used.

[kiwi285]

Just watching the clip from the St Mary's Cup race at Goodwood - what a fantastic race and the variety of cars was amazing. Most of those drivers wouldn't have expected to win, but they had some really great tussles amongst themselves and the reaction of the crowd shows that they really appreciated the show put on. Great to see some of those cars racing and sliding around again. Surely we can do something like this here in NZ.

[Oldfart]

Hi Minihaha, there has not been a huge amount of progress with this, other than the entries for the Roycroft Trophy event, weekend of 14 and 15 April have invited interrested people to enter. The cars have to have a Vintage Car Club identity card which shows a pre 31 Dec 1960 ID.
As I have been nominated as the contact by Waitemata Branch VCC I can say that your car, as you have described it, falls well outside our ideas. Disc brakes were not available in the period, so there is the first issue. 1275 was not available, and certainly not 5 speeds.
Your age is completely irrelevant, this was a comment that was in jest at some time.
If you remember a few basic premises you won't go too far wrong. Mods that could have been done pre 1961. It is more a chance to drive old saloons in a "spirited manner" and in a friendly rivalry, rather than really "racing".
Anybody who wants more detail, don't hesitate to PM me.

[Oldfart]

can you tell me all what allan dick was going on about the new custaxie,i understand it has been said that they have used parts that were not on the old car.i have asked around about what is new on this car, do you know what the new parts are that they have used.

Hi, completely irrelevant to this thread, why not use the "replica debate" thread?

[minihaha]

Thanks for your answer. I do have all of the original bits and my car has live rego and it's original black AY plates. I understand the reference to the UK cars raced in the historic touring cars as a description of the "spirit" of vehicle and racing that you are trying to emulate. But they do allow modifications to disc brakes and 1275 engines. Not to mention mega dollars worth of quaife and jack knight parts to make them hang together. This is why I asked. Personally I have driven my A40 at a spirited pace over country roads in its original spec and I can tell you that single leading shoe front drums, rear drums that barely work as the are rod operated, soft suspension, body roll and tyres that talk back to you while a poor little 948 clatters away in front of you... Awesome fun!! couldn't get the smile off for days!

[CUSTAXIE50]

i asked amco72 who was on this thread somethink, not you.

[Russ Cunningham]

i asked amco72 who was on this thread somethink, not you.

PLEASE EXPLAIN IN ENGLISH? MY LATIN STUDIES ARE NOW HISTORY!

[rogered]

I read it a couple of times and, with the addition of some Capital letters, a comma, and some correct spelling, it should say, I think,

"I asked Amco72, who was on this thread, something, and not you."

Hope this helps all, who are following this thread:o

[rogered]

Still not a good example of the Queens English:confused:

[Steve Holmes]

OK guys, lets keep this thread on topic. If we're going to start talking about grammar, then I'd be the first one to get kicked off this website! My mother has already pointed out several spelling mistakes I've made on here! Custaxie50, Oldfart is right, this thread isn't the right place to be talking about the Custaxie.

[bry3500]

candidates

[bry3500]

Series 3 Hillman -- all for sale

[Oldfart]

Where are all these please?

[AMCO72]

Dont know where those ones are but they are fast disappearing. We had a couple of eccentric brothers living here in Cambridge who owned a half acre section in the middle of town. There was a large, old, ramshackled house in the middle, surrounded by 50, slowly decaying cars, mostly English. The Willis boys resisted all attempts by various people to buy these relics and eventually had to erect a high fence round the property.....[a] to keep sticky fingered thieves out and [b]...to quell the complaints from the neighbours. It also posed a considerable fire risk, and evenually the council moved in and read the riot act, at just about the same time as the occupiers were committed to secure care. A relative bought the property, summoned the scrap-man, and the whole place was cleaned up in a jiffy!! We had better get in before it's too late......time is not on their side.

[Carlo]

The Vanguards are at Hinds just south of Ashburton on SHW 1, he has a few more old English cars for sale there too, worth a visit if you are interested

[bry3500]

These are all at Hinds Garage , the owners email is hfm@xtra.co.nz
his name is Martin Perry

[bry3500]

More from the yard

[bry3500]

My source tells me" the doors open and shut like it's new.No external body rust ,floors good. Motor seized but complete, just add diesel. Dash trim and upholstery in need of serious attention. All parts there and REG on hold."

[Carlo]

Vanguards, equiped with speed retarders rather than brakes, bet they have not improved with age. Worn cam bearing = run main bearings, wet sleeve engine and leaking lower sealing rings, twin & triple valve springs and dropped valves every 100.000 miles. Then there was that gear change linkage to contend with, Apprentices don't know they are alive today. Still have a bit of a soft spot for the old girls though.

[minihaha]

Just to help get the creative juices flowing! :0)

6269
6270
6271
6272
6273
6274

[TonyG]

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/TGPhotography/Lakeside%2050th%20Anniversary%20Meet%202011/Group%20N/LS124-3.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/TGPhotography/Lakeside%2050th%20Anniversary%20Meet%202011/Group%20N/LS034-3.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/TGPhotography/Lakeside%2050th%20Anniversary%20Meet%202011/Group%20N/LS032-3.jpg

[TonyG]

Love this thread. If I could win Lotto, I would be in too ! Awesome pics of the Farina in action.
I could not believe my eyes when I went to the 50th Anniversary Meet at Lakeside last year when the GpN's came out and I saw these cars on track. I had no idea what GpN was at the time.
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/TGPhotography/Lakeside%2050th%20Anniversary%20Meet%202011/IMGP3084-3.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/TGPhotography/Lakeside%2050th%20Anniversary%20Meet%202011/IMGP3366-3.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/TGPhotography/Lakeside%2050th%20Anniversary%20Meet%202011/Group%20N/LS095-3.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/TGPhotography/Lakeside%2050th%20Anniversary%20Meet%202011/Group%20N/LS130-3.jpg



But of course we don't want to see too much of this. He was really lucky and drove away with just a scrape.
http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/TGPhotography/Lakeside%2050th%20Anniversary%20Meet%202011/Group%20N/LS135-3.jpg

[minihaha]

Those old holden sixes must sound awesome screaming away thru a set of old SU's or similar!!

I bet sometimes it's hard to hear the engines over the tyre squeal.... :0)

[RGM]

Really enjoying this and following this thread.I agree with Bob stay away from WOF & Rego,as a VTNZ inspector a compliancing inspector there is a paper trail and many $ involved but have a high standard of presentation and apearance.

[Oldfart]

Well so far there have been a big fat zero people wanting to enter the Roycroft meeting! It would seem we have yet another "all talk and no action". I have not given up, I have just redirected to other media for this.
More are always welcome. PM me or email if you want

[AMCO72]

You are probably right oldfart. We are all full of 'piss & wind'. A lot of us got quite excited about this UNTIL we sat down and did our sums. Buy an old bomb, do it up and go racing......well I dont think so. The best way, without a doubt, and I did my sums on this one, was to buy an already restored, but not necessarily concours car, and go from there. I checked out a couple of tidyish prospects....a PA Vauxhall and a Wolseley 4/44, and to get them into anysort of condition to even think about racing them was going to run into serious money....well serious for me. And we are going to RACE them aren't we, or at least give them a bloody good thrashing!!!! These cars had a WOF and rego and COULD have been driven to a meeting....not always a good idea as 'things' tend to happen when on the race track. The alternative is to trailer them for which you need a serious trailer and tow vehicle. Not quite like towing a Mini around! There are a FEW reasonable looking cars out there, but even to get them to WOF standard was going to take a lot of work, and I think that WOF standard would be the very minimum for racing. I'm afraid it all comes down to $$$$ again. So I'm sorry oldfart that I let you down on this one and got your hopes up......I'm sure it will happen, slowly, right now I have plenty of bills to pay on the Mini to keep me occupied for a month or two. [I must stress that what I have just said is MY opinion only, and not necessarily the opinion of the rest of this forum.]

[AMCO72]

oldfart......pm sent 7.45pm

[Oldfart]

This has not died, await news

[minihaha]

Found this and thought it would fit in this thread just nicely!:D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQHX40jHM5M

[minihaha]

9152

9153

[Oldfart]

Just had an email from the UK, the "Masters Series" no longer runs the 50's grids. In their words "It no longer worked for us".
The Wolsesly shown is outside of our proposal on a fair few fronts.

[Oldfart]

Something followed me home this afternoon. Now there is time to do something before December at Taupo, Roycroft next April. Even if there are only a handful to demonstrate the concept, it's a start!

[Steve Holmes]

Rhys, that is really cool! Way to lead by example! What are your plans for it, modifications wise?

[GeebeeNZ]

10652
It needs a set of Spitfire wires and a personalised plate SFM 777. Sir Stirling would be impressed

[Steve Holmes]

I love it! They kind of look like bicycle wheels. Rhys, I definitely think a replica is required.

[RGM]

I know where there is a 1200 twincarb motor and a early twin carb mainifold off a 948 if you are interested

[Oldfart]

10652
It needs a set of Spitfire wires and a personalised plate SFM 777. Sir Stirling would be impressed

I should imagine RogerH and his cohorts would not be impressed if I were to put a set of Borranis, as were used on SMC, on a doggy Standard 10!
It looks too high for my eye too. And of course to be correct it would have to be an 8 with 10 mechanicals. Interesting isn't it? Moss with a hotted up base model car, current F1 with somewhat higher levels of personal transport.

[RogerH]

I should imagine RogerH and his cohorts would not be impressed if I were to put a set of Borranis, as were used on SMC, on a doggy Standard 10!
It looks too high for my eye too. And of course to be correct it would have to be an 8 with 10 mechanicals. Interesting isn't it? Moss with a hotted up base model car, current F1 with somewhat higher levels of personal transport.

Yes Rhys, I would be really impressed if you put Borranis on it as they would increase the value of the car by a few multiples and with even basic "modern" tyres you would spend most of your time replacing broken spokes. Somewhere lurking in my parts bin I think I have a spare set of 1960s 12" Borranis that would make it look a bit lower ............

[Russ Cunningham]

Something followed me home this afternoon. Now there is time to do something before December at Taupo, Roycroft next April. Even if there are only a handful to demonstrate the concept, it's a start!

Rhys, A stray dog followed me home last week & his name was Rover. My regards to Stan but be careful the men in white coats don't take you away, aha!

[Russ Cunningham]

Rhys, I should add the following as I would be terribly upset if you though I was taking the piss.

The restoration of my Standrive is well under way, just awaiting the delivery of new rubber bands for the trans.

Regards,

Russ

[bob homewood]

Standrive worked on those ,I still have nightmares and visions of men in white coats ,when ever you mention that name,two pedal control they used to advertise ,makes it sound like a pedal car


Rhys, I should add the following as I would be terribly upset if you though I was taking the piss.

The restoration of my Standrive is well under way, just awaiting the delivery of new rubber bands for the trans.

Regards,

Russ

[Oldfart]

Just to bring this up to date.
I have not given up, yet.
Roycroft was a bit dismal, 6 entries, but sadly all did not arrive. Those who did got a a lot of laps!
I am told that there has been a "new" car purchased over the weekend, 107e, another 107e is available, prepped for paint for a very fair sum. An owner of a very early Mk 2 Jag has expressed interest, and of course there is a black and silver Standard available as a very cheap car to use right away :)
Possible events for the upcoming season include Chelsea hillclimb, HRSCC meeting at Taupo first weekend December, Ngawhini (Taranaki) and of course Roycroft 14/15 March

[Oldfart]

Well here we go again! The HRSCC /VCC meeting at Taupo is on in December and a great chance to have a play with your "older" saloon. Roycroft is on 14/15 March and again there are slots for the saloons.
To re-iterate, we are not seeking to create a class for even older pre 65s, more a chance for those eligible cars to have an "enthusiastic thrash". Whatever you may have, as long as it and the engine are pre 31 December 1960 is more than welcome. Rubbing is not racing, prizes of chocolate fish are awarded at documentation so there is nothing to encourage you to beat anyone else except your own pride. email me at pre61saloonregister@gmail.com for any help or advice I can offer. WOF standard vehicles are required. (Don't have to be registered, just to the standard)

[Oldfart]

Just had news of a Renault 4cv/750 being finished for this! Hirsty, I will be in touch.

[ERC]

Is it this weekend for the Chelsea Hillclimb? If so, will be there, armed with a camera not a steering wheel.

When I was lookinng for a project car to be repowerd by a Rover V8, top of my list was a Riley 1.5 (I remember the late Alan Payne in the UK sprinting his - "Smiley" the Riley).

Second choice was a Standard 10.

Then the decrepit Magnette was advertised in the MGCC newsletter...

[Allan]

Where are you at with the "decrepit" Magnette at the moment?

[GeebeeNZ]

Ray Chelsea was last weekend. There are pictures on my facebook page. A Bentley, Bugatti, Tiger Moth Riley, Austin A30, JBS, Bucklers, MGs, 1906 Darracq, A 90 year old on a BSA Bantam and a few more it was a good event
Graeme


Is it this weekend for the Chelsea Hillclimb? If so, will be there, armed with a camera not a steering wheel.

When I was lookinng for a project car to be repowerd by a Rover V8, top of my list was a Riley 1.5 (I remember the late Alan Payne in the UK sprinting his - "Smiley" the Riley).

Second choice was a Standard 10.

Then the decrepit Magnette was advertised in the MGCC newsletter...

[ERC]

Oh drat!!! Pity it wasn't mentioned on here - or if it was, I missed it.

As for the decrepit MG, I have had a very, very, mentally traumatic three years and a very physically traumatic two years, since being made aware of the "Hobby Car Manual" December 2010 - which is the bible for the LVVTA, plus MSNZ issues.

About 10 months ago, I thought we had cracked it with an LVVTA plate finally issued, but it failed compliance on an LVVTA issue in February and on the lack of a repair certificate for the extensive body repairs.

Let's just say that to say any more on a public forum would not be a wise move at the moment.

[Kevin Hirst]

Ray Chelsea was last weekend. There are pictures on my facebook page. A Bentley, Bugatti, Tiger Moth Riley, Austin A30, JBS, Bucklers, MGs, 1906 Darracq, A 90 year old on a BSA Bantam and a few more it was a good event
Graeme

Did the bantam race from the top to the bottom ?

[GeebeeNZ]

Did the bantam race from the top to the bottom ?

No Kevin he is a true racer. Two stroke smoke bottom to top.

[Kevin Hirst]

Did the bantam race from the top to the bottom ?

No Kevin he is a true racer. Two stroke smoke bottom to top.

Great, G.B. the one I had as a lad would have taken half the day to get up there, that was before we found out abou t porting & compression though, just wish the locost was old enough to compete, maybe when [if] I get to ninety it may be eligeable, no I will have to be 100 on countback.

[GD66]

The dreaded bantam, this one's at Ballaugh Bridge on the Isle of Man, can't quite see if it's been going quick enough to blow the ash off his fag...26565

[Oldfart]

GD, do you know who this is? A very good friend in the UK prepared a Bantam for the IOM way way back which went rather well, certainly in the top 10. After the race he was offered a job to make (I think) Yamahas go better. When he asked how much pay, he declined as he reckoned he could not drink that much Guiness. I did some research and it turned out the offer had been made, stupid as it may seem.

[Kevin Hirst]

The dreaded bantam, this one's at Ballaugh Bridge on the Isle of Man, can't quite see if it's been going quick enough to blow the ash off his fag...26565

Must have excellent cig, lighter. also can,t see ashtray attached to bike. Who was that man Reece ?

[ERC]

Didn't the telegram boys at the Post Office all ride BSA Bantams back in the UK? I'm sure the petrol tank wasn't that large though! Brilliant pic.

[Kevin Hirst]

Didn't the telegram boys at the Post Office all ride BSA Bantams back in the UK? I'm sure the petrol tank wasn't that large though! Brilliant pic.

No not original, probably running on methanol / castrol R, never been a better smell invented yet, uses a lot more,

[John McKechnie]

When I was at College in 1971, there was a friends brother who had a Bantam, they used to call it a sawer- no, not Soarer- because it sounded like a chainsaw.
Also in 1969 ,a group of young teens used to fly model aeroplanes- control line- with gloplug engines. We used to think that the bottles of Methane 1000 -read methanol- from ModelAir was great smelling as we filled the tanks. Probably helped prepare us for circuit racing.

[Oldfart]

Well, time to get this back up. 9 cars this year at Roycroft, and even then missing a couple from last year who will be back.
There has been a stream of phone calls, and with other meetings being offered (October) this is your real chance to get in. Some of the current cars are being given a birthday, one entrant reverting almost to his roots in motorsport to run a car similar to his second, full steam ahead!!

[Oldfart]

Lift off has been achieved. I am advised tonight of yet another car underway. Time for the fence sitters to come and play!

[Oldfart]

Well, as some may know we have been offered a grid at Icebreaker. This means we have serious recognition, now just have to front up and fulfil those expectations. More always welcome to come and join us!

[ERC]

Great news Rhys. Running at just one race meeting a year was never going to attract big support. Hopefully, if successful, you'll get invites to more HRC meetings and that should encourage a few more out there.

[Oldfart]

Great news Rhys. Running at just one race meeting a year was never going to attract big support. Hopefully, if successful, you'll get invites to more HRC meetings and that should encourage a few more out there.
We always had 2 race meetings plus sprint and hillclimbs, but you are right. Getting the extra invites will be a bit "chicken and egg". More invitations needs more cars, to get more cars.... Nil Bastardum Carborundum!

[Oldfart]

Well this is the "sign off" on this topic from me.
I tried, I failed.
Despite finding cars, building them up for others to use and such, there is little growth in the concept, in the North Island at least.
In the mainland it is taking off with the enthusiasts down there buying cars, agreeing on where they are going, and in the next few months the "pre 61, as it was" group will be viable.
I do thank those who supported the idea, both those who talked about it, and even more those who have cars and will progress this to whatever level it may be.
Enjoy, as the girl in the cafe might say.
See you

[GD66]

At least you gave it a crack, OF. So much better than sitting on the couch moaning, "Why can't the club do ABC etc" It is bloody hard to get something off the ground, for a start there are SO many categories in NZ motorsport already that many of them run in a niche with overlaps on both sides. Unfortunately expressions of goodwill, half-pissed conjecture and tyre-kicking from those threatening to join in don't get it done but it would be a shame if you couldn't get your squad together for at least one combined attack a year and hope to build from there.

[ERC]

That is a shame Rhys. Part of the problem is that we are probably too late to rescue enough pre 1961's from the crusher.

With good examples of even modest cars now fetching good money, I think that finding enough raceable ones was always going to be an uphill battle. Years ago in the UK, the pre '57 saloons, when they could be picked up fairly cheaply were moderately popular, but grids were rarely full even then.

They did allow very limited modifications and they were enough to make the racing pretty good. Bog standard 60 year old cars on modern tracks are a bit lost and personally, I would have liked to have seen limited modifications allowed, to make them a) more enjoyable to drive b) better to watch, even if there were two classes - or more. Nowadays, numbers on the grid are essential, even if it does mean mixed grids.

[Oldfart]

Well, I did say "signing off " a few posts back.
As many will have seen from the ERC and Nigel Watts pics the HRC has picked up the ball and there are a number of events for the cars, even if they haven't got their own grid YET. So, for all those wh thought it might be interesting, you can still join in. Even though I am now living in the UK I know where there are cars ready, or almost so, to run and under 7K so...