This is getting ridiculous

[Andrew Metford]

The following was part of an email I received today regarding the upcoming Icebreaker meeting 22/23 September:

New Hampton Downs safety requirements

On 24 July 2018, Hampton Downs issued the following announcement:

With our continued drive towards improving safety where possible, we would like to inform you of some requirements for hosting and running a motorsport event here at Hampton Downs.

So in no particular order:

-Frontal Head Restraints - Both Hampton Downs and Highlands will be making Frontal Neck Restraint (FHR) devices mandatory for all track-based speed activities at Highlands and Hampton Downs. These devices have been proven tosignificantly reduce the risk of serious injury or death. This rule covers both permitted and non-permitted events.
For vehicles which have a 4 point harness or great, there are various tethered devices available including Hans, NecksGen REV, Impact Accel or Simpson Hybrid. These are acceptable.
For vehicles fitted with a standard lap and diagonal 3-point belt system a Foam roll/collar types is acceptable.

-Electrical Tag and Testing – all electrical equipment that is to be plugged in the HD electrical supply within the garages or any other areas will need to have a current Tag-&-Test tag on it. If a piece of equipment is seen connected without a current cert the team/driver will be asked unplug it.

-Infield parking – this has improved massively and your assistance with the no-parking behind the garages is greatly appreciated as it has now significantly reduce the risk of fire and pedestrian verse car incidents on site as well as increased the accessibility to the garages. What we would like to reiterate is maintaining clear access roads into the site. This is still a constant issue and once again is needed not only from a H&S point of view but also from a practical point to allow the recovery teams easy access to the various track entry points when they are need to attend an incident.

-Fire extinguishers – is has been noted on a number of occasions that a few teams are arriving at the track without a fire extinguisher to have available when refuelling. We would like you to remind competitors/drivers of their obligations to have one on hand at all times when refuelling – this does not include using the ones that are positioned in the pitlane boxes at HD.

-Refuelling – when refuelling we now require you to have a spill matt under the vehicle to catch any spilt fuel. These are able to be purchased at any safety shop.

With many thanks from us all at Hampton Downs.

Seems like these are all effective immediately as no date is given?

Heaps of people will have to buy a new helmet as their current one won't have / be able to have HANS posts attached to it. So there goes at least $2000 for helmet and HANS device, plus quite possibly a new harness to fit over the HANS device. Or if you can't afford $2.5G's for all that, throw away the 5 point harness and put the standard lap-and-diagonal seatbelt back in and you only need a foam neck roll. That's safer!!!

The electrical test and tag is the biggest scam since WoF's. Test and Tag is NOT A LEGAL REQUIREMENT!!!!!! Read it here https://worksafe.govt.nz/topic-and-industry/electricity/testing-and-tagging-electrical-appliances/ It's a big money making scam under the pretext of safety, and every man and his dog is falling over themselves to jump on the bandwagon that is sailing over the test and tag cliff. Why do you think switchboards have RCD's? To protect the person from electric shock. You can have an appliance tested and tagged - that only means it was in serviceable condition at the time of the test, just like your car was at WoF time. Who knows what happened after that? It could have a damaged cord or some other fault, but as long as it's got that magic sticker on it, you're good to go. I honestly hope whoever dreamt up the whole test and tag scam, dies by electrocution. Same for every idiot that can't think for themselves and goes along with the whole test and tag scam.

The other thing with Test and Tag is, any moron can do it. All you have to do is some horsesh*t couple of hours course somewhere and be deemed "competent", then you can test and tag to your heart's content. You'll have no idea what is happening electrically, what the tests are actually doing and testing, nor be able to explain why the appliance failed and what needs fixing, but hey you're now a Test and Tag guy / girl. Are you going to trust your life to some bozo with no qualifications when he tells you your appliance won't kill you?? What a joke. By the way, I know what's happening, because among other things I'm a registered electrician.

And now you'll have to go and buy a spill mat to put petrol in your car. You can keep that next to the refuelling fire extinguisher, the sheets of plywood you have to put the jack and axle stands on, and whatever else they care to dream up. Have to buy a bigger car to cart all this extra crap around!! My God it is never ending.

So what are we getting for the "safety levy" that is charged at every meeting, when we have to provide all the gear? We are paying them so we can use our own safety gear?? Seems to me that we get exactly nothing for the "safety levy" fee? If it looks like a scam, and smells like a scam, it probably is a ......?

Why don't they just can car racing full stop, because it's obviously far too dangerous. The car club I belong to has the club circuit booked at the end of next month, for circuit sprints. I'd imagine it's a permitted event, so we're all going to have to have HANS devices or foam neck braces? In a MGTC doing 45mph with a strong tail wind? If that day still goes ahead, after that I doubt I'll ever go back to HD. Between all this garbage from HD, the exorbitant charges from HD and MNZ, and all the other compliance / licence / authority card / everything else, it's just not enjoyable anymore. No one in classic racing is doing it for the money, so what else is there to do it for??

So to sum it all up to two words, for me at least, I'll go with "nail", preceded by "final".

My boss at work is the crew chief for 2NZ Sprint Car at Western Springs. I drove the truck to Palmy last season, and helped out at Western Springs too. Was fun, enjoyable, and I learnt a few things too. Guess I'll be playing in the dirt from now on......

[Spgeti]

We have been advised the date for all this Andrew is 13th August....yes 2018.

[Andrew Metford]

Thanks Spgeti. Nice of them to give us a decent amount of notice to save the shekels up to buy all this extra expensive gear.............

Might as well sell my car then. Halfway through getting it going again too, was looking forward to hitting the track. Can't even do a test day at Pukekohe without getting creamed $45 first for a "pit exit licence". Another scam that achieves nothing except to line the pockets of the track operators........

[Andrew Metford]

And they wonder why people race on the street....

[Oldfart]

When Targa introduced compulsory FHR, and speedway collars weren't accepted, I made myself unavailable to the driver I had many very pleasant events with. There was zero negotiation to accept that the requirement to be able to exit the vehicle unassisted within the FIA mandated timeframe would, or could be compromised in some vehicles.
I would suspect that there will be a whole lot of vehicles not allowed out. What about the fields of 2K cup, slowly growing vintage racing (although I wonder where this will all sit with VCC rules and permits which vintage runs under?) although they do say "track-based speed activities at Highlands and Hampton Downs".
As I would read this, all driver training, eg BMW and others that use the venues needs to comply as well, unless the next restriction is "road legal speeds".
TQ has previously stated that grass roots motorsport should take place on grass fields, I guess this is another step towards that.
What I don't get is that for a circuit to be financially viable it needs to have as many days as permits will allow, and as many cars entering as can be accommodated. The only other option is to hike the fees so that the very few left cover the same financial base.

I thinks it's past time when the rule makers had a look where the most severe crashes happen, week in, week out, and that's the dirt ovals, and see what they require, it would be educational, or is it going to go back to, "We know best?"

Bizarre!

[Reeceracer]

Will be interesting to see how the grid numbers stack up this year, especially 2kcup and ERC, where I think a lot of budget racers will take this as the last straw........btw, is there enough FHR's in the country to supply this new requirement? And if it's not in Schedule A is it legit? Between this and Taupo's determination not to have events at their track no wonder cars are staying in sheds......Will have to have compulsory airbags in our cars next - try that in your 1937 MG....

[John McKechnie]

We put this on our Sports Sedan website on Friday so no one would have a last minute surprise, it was bad enough early this year with the underwear/gloves/sox/balaclava requirements
I passed this on to the Supercart brigade , they couldnt believe that it was for go-karts.
Please note that this came from Hampton Downs/Highland Park track, as coordinator I have not received this from other tracks.
BTW...I was once paralyzed and have chosen to run HANS for the past year.
I value my neck and mobility

[frans]

Will be interesting to see how the grid numbers stack up this year, especially 2kcup and ERC, where I think a lot of budget racers will take this as the last straw........btw, is there enough FHR's in the country to supply this new requirement? And if it's not in Schedule A is it legit? Between this and Taupo's determination not to have events at their track no wonder cars are staying in sheds......Will have to have compulsory airbags in our cars next - try that in your 1937 MG....


Is there a way that this could be made more public? Is there someone on their committee that reads this Forum? Can someone transfer this discussion to their Facebook page where it could reach more readers? I sincerely hope so because we have the good guys trying to introduce affordable racing with new brilliant ideas and then we get these (can't say it) that does the opposite and try and prevent racing.


Just leave me alone let me race. There isn't anybody holding a gun in my back and forcing me to get into that car. I'm doing it on my own, FFS. I am not shy to say it but I am only just making ends meet. Don't make it more difficult, it is already bordering on the last straw. I am sure there are many in my position.


Regards, Frans.

[John McKechnie]

Car stops quickly in an accident....excellent idea if the neck stops quickly as well

[ERC]

I'm afraid that mandating this sort of extra safety requirement over and above what MSNZ dictates is over the top.

Do you need neck restraints or protection when skiing? Riding a horse? Skateboarding? Rollerblading? Mountaineering?

This is to do with personal safety and there is no third party risk. Therefore, surely a choice for the individual to make?

This is a killer blow for beginners, but note that you can race with a 3 point road legal safety belt and a foam collar, so isn't this a somewhat hypocritical stance? Take out your 4/5/6 point harness in a standard or mildly modified car, remove the roll cage forward of the main hoop, revert to the standard seat and all you need is a foam collar?

Maybe TQ has missed the point that without grassroots, beginner or entry level sport, there won't be any sport at all... OK for someone flogging just one of his companies for over $400mAUD, spending $2.4m on a Vulcan, but for young Freddy with a 2K Cup car? Graduating to a neck device a season or two down the career or hobby path is fine, but for a first up, first season expense?

Glad I've retired on my terms and wasn't totally forced into it.

Incidentally, my spinal damage was caused when working on the car. I broke a finger trying remove trailer ramps. I smashed my bicep when being towed. Race injuries? Nil.

I have suggested to the current ERC Convenor that he polls the ERC members to see just how many will be running at Icebreaker and maybe consider just one grid instead of two, as I can't see a full grid of 46 at HD or Pukekohe in the near or distant future, even with the grids combined. That being so, even more beginners will be put off.

[Kiwiboss]

Its all to do with avoiding "liability" should an incident happen, Quinn has just got in first that's all. Myself and Bruce have been associated with this last season when we found out we could possibly be held "personally responsible" of the actions of others with-in our group, on and off the track, and because we weren't affiliated to MSNZ we didn't come under their insurance package, and here we are doing it voluntary duh...………..so, we have for this season implemented a "Registration" form which all must sign putting the onerous back onto the competitor/driver/owner and those associated with that person, in our group, sad but reality...……..Mr Quinn as a track owner has taken it a step further and I don't blame him.

[Spgeti]

Having been involved in a work place death many years ago and a serious life altering injury as well I can totally understand the reaction to the current H&S legislation. I do support the move to FHR but I feel that the lack of lead in time and lack of consultation is not helpful.
Believe me you do not want to go thru a death on track and face the following inquiries that take place.
I can full understand the reaction of Mr Quinn and his management team but there are areas that need to be looked at as not every car is suitable for the drivers to wear a FHR and I am talking about older single seater, open sports cars and period specials.

I am sure that this will evolve over the next few weeks but we as a country are way behind others in this area.

[RogerH]

I wonder what MSNZ think of this?
All tracks in NZ can only operate if they have the appropriate track licence issued by FIA but under the auspicious of MSNZ regulations. MSNZ have established the requisite competitor safety requirements and these are detailed in the MSNZ Manual.
What has happened is that HD has apparently ignored MSNZ's competitor safety requirements and created their own regulations. MSNZ should be very concerned that a track owner has supplanted their own regulations over and above MSNZ's regulations. While in this case HD's regs are more robust than MSNZ's, the precedent has been created and next time a track owner may try and dictate lesser regs for competitors.
As far as driver and car safety is concerned there should be one set of rules (MSNZ's) and the track owners should not get involved in this aspect of the sport.
With respect to the tagging of electrical equipment I don't think that HD have the legal position to impose this on competitors. There is no legal contract between HD and competitors that HD can rely on. The only contract is between HD and the track hirer.
There is also no stated size for the absorbent fuel mat - I have a beer coaster that is absorbent so I might bring that along ....

[Reeceracer]

News Flash! Hampton Downs has now ruled that all open wheelers be equiped with the Halo Device.....effective immediately....

[ERC]

...and no overtaking allowed. Only cars valued at over $500,000 accepted.

All pit crew to wear fire resistant kilts - and must have at least one Scot in the crew.

Racing to be concluded by 3pm and maximum grid size reduced to 6 cars. No grid starts, rolling starts only but with 12 seconds between each car. Meetings will not start before 10:30am.

All spectators must wear sun hats or if wet, purchase a HD branded umbrella and males must wear long sleeved clothing and no shorts allowed. Females under the age of 16 and over 45 may wear skimpy clothing, but those between 16 and 44 must also be covered from head to foot.

Spectator entry will be by season ticket only ($1,250) and will not be allowed on the infield and confined to the bank on the start/finish straight.

Car parking for all events will be $15 minimum, rising to $50 for meetings with GTs included and $100 for premier events.

The track will close permanently 2023 claiming lack of support and the land sold for a village housing complex, specifically for the homeless or more than likely, as an extension to Springhill Prison.

You read it here first.

[rogered]

Every time an extra cost or increase is imposed, you quietly loss a couple of more cars off the grid.
Recently we have had an the following
H+S levy
Entry cost
Transponder hire to $70.00
Fireproof underwear
HANS, which will extend to a new helmet.
etc no doubt.

The promoters and owners are fine to impose these requirements, but equally folks can also choose not to enter, and this is what has been happening for some time.
No doubt, I will buy a hans in my own good time, however, at this stage, the 2 cars we were entering for HD will, due to cost , will not be running. I wonder how many others will also quietly drop away.

I recall the organizers running the wellington sevens, ( not realizing, at that point, who really held the power) decided to clamp down on the drunken revelers. So the drinkers stayed away and everybody was happy. Except bugger all people attended, and it was likely only then, that it dawned on them, that the folks they alienated, by imposing these requirements, were actually their customer base.

[Reeceracer]

You can scratch another 2 cars as well.....

[Reeceracer]

...and no overtaking allowed. Only cars valued at over $500,000 accepted.

All pit crew to wear fire resistant kilts - and must have at least one Scot in the crew.

Racing to be concluded by 3pm and maximum grid size reduced to 6 cars. No grid starts, rolling starts only but with 12 seconds between each car. Meetings will not start before 10:30am.

All spectators must wear sun hats or if wet, purchase a HD branded umbrella and males must wear long sleeved clothing and no shorts allowed. Females under the age of 16 and over 45 may wear skimpy clothing, but those between 16 and 44 must also be covered from head to foot.

Spectator entry will be by season ticket only ($1,250) and will not be allowed on the infield and confined to the bank on the start/finish straight.

Car parking for all events will be $15 minimum, rising to $50 for meetings with GTs included and $100 for premier events.

The track will close permanently 2023 claiming lack of support and the land sold for a village housing complex, specifically for the homeless or more than likely, as an extension to Springhill Prison.

You read it here first.


You left out the rule that all motorcycles must have roll cages........

[nigel watts]

Lets not forget the brand new regulation that says all cars on the track must be preceded by a person on foot waving a red flag.

[Allan]

As a hard roadside bank hitting Targa competitor and a former Ambulance Officer I have for some time recommended the use of HANS devices.

55566

[John H]

Lets not forget the brand new regulation that says all cars on the track must be preceded by a person on foot waving a red flag.
Ha....What about road cones on every corner?

[Reeceracer]

As a hard roadside bank hitting Targa competitor and a former Ambulance Officer I have for some time recommended the use of HANS devices.

55566

Hi Allan, I don't think anybody here is disputing the effectiveness of the HANS device. At all. It's more the way this "rule' has been implemented on top of the continuous rising costs of going for a skid on a racetrack.
Also generally kiwis like to have a choice in when and how they do things not told what and now.... We are all aware that motorsport is risky and that's part of the appeal, but if some choose to not wear a HANS device then that should be their call. A bit like I "choose" to race my sportbike at 260kph+ wrapped in old cow skin but I choose not to do Targa events for exactly the reason you unfortunately discovered...
Sincerely hope you recovered from that ok, Cheers, Reece.

[ERC]

Given the 300+ deaths on NZ's public roads each year, maybe every road user and every passenger should also wear a 4 point harness (whoops, you can't 'cos it is to all intents and purposes, illegal...), plus fire resistant clothing and a HANS type device?

As pointed out above, this is going to do absolutely nothing to improve entry levels at minor events, including learner type track days or even those of us with cars fitted with roll protection, but who have given up competitive events, just wanting to do a low level track day.

The lack of consultation and the motivation behind it should be publicly addressed by either TQ (preferably) or maybe the senior member of his team who thought this was a good idea?

When an organising club hires the track, surely they apply the rules and accept the responsibilities associated with running an event, whatever it might be, not the venue owner?

[Oldfart]

Alan, post #20 there is a difference between recommending, and making compulsory. I always wore a foam collar, speedway approved, and could exit the car in the mandated time. With the compulsory Hans (not FHR, but specifically Hans) I could not. So now what do you recommend, not enter?
As I now work in the safety industry, I have been following the research from FIA, that notes that while injuries have decreased with the use of "containment seats" and FHR (forward head restraint) there has been a large increase in the number of short term unconsciousness and concussion. 2 things come to mind; if the incident occurs where there is nobody around, is there a possibility when there is fire the occupant(s) can't get out because of the black out? Secondly, who would carry the can for imposing a rule that actually created the secondary issue?

An aside to this, local (to me) sprint course at Curborough has a minimum of 4 days a month where you pay your money (£50) for a half day, maximum of 5 cars for the session, and go and run the sprint course as often, or few, as you like. You are likely to get over 25 runs if you want. It is controlled by a club volunteer to ensure safety, one car at a time on the track.
Requirement is; club membership (£20 odd all in), crash helmet. That's it. No race licence, no fees for MSA (equivalent of MSNZ)..
And guess what, they are getting more entrants to events, the sessions are almost always full, they are getting more taking parts in events
This to me is very enlightened

[ERC]

Interesting Rhys, as to enter a club sprint at Curborough, when I last called in, (2004) was £85. I competed many, many times there and you generally got just two practice and maybe two or three timed runs! At that time, there was also a huge shift to organised track days at circuit such as Donington, as official race entry fees were rising so fast.

The same thing was on the cards here but if the track owner imposes such restrictions, then the options for those not wanting to get into the somewhat more risky and expensive racing, are effectively being shut out.

I too have worn a foam collar and I do own a Defnder FHR, but quite honestly, didn't get on with it at all, so never actually raced wearing it.

What most don't realise is that the angle of your driving seat dictates the device, so if any driver runs more than one car, say a single seater with an inclined seat and a saloon with a very upright seat, they may well need two devices, as the range of adjustment is either limited or there is no adjustment at all and they are totally fixed. Be very aware that you cant just 'buy a restraint' and all will be well.

I'm a bit out of date with the current helmet requirements and not so long ago, not all helmets were suitable for having the posts fitted for the tethers.

I can't stress too highly that before purchasing, a restraint or a helmet, drivers should seek professional advice from a respected supplier.

http://www.chicane.co.nz/products.asp?CategoryID=9

[Rod Grimwood]

Well it just keeps going on, I may be negotiable to supply electrical tagging, fuel spill kit (real monty), New helmet and HANS device along with written instructions on when, where, and how you shall park. Also what certification/qualification you will require to go for a piss by yourself, and legal advice on how to defend yourself if caught/accused of enjoying yourself. All this free to the person who buys my Escort so they can store it away for another 30 odd years. I have honestly been watching this festering boil for few years, and that is why I have not rushed in to finish car. Cost, Cost, Cost. it is a grand to go for a few laps now (and that's with no F-Ups) once you could do club days for 40-50 bucks entry. Sad.

[Reeceracer]

As I was sitting in my racecar this afternoon reminicing back to when motor racing was affordable, I had a fantastic brainwave....
NZ needs 2 types of race circuits!
One would be for the racers that compete for the love of the sport and machines and just want a sealed circuit with nice big runoffs, no ridiculous concrete walls...(Puke take note...), a nice grassy pit/camping area (like old Taupo),Sat night BBQ's,( great part of GTRNZ which is now banned at HD!) great spectator viewing without prison fences everywhere, no expensive multi-story pit garages and empty conference rooms with latte coffee machines,doesn't matter if the lawn's haven't been manicured in the last 2 day's or you want to stay overnight in your tent/motorhome/back seat to ease accommodation costs and make it a social weekend with your mates.
No "Pit Exit Fee" (what the f#@%s with that Puke?? Do I get it back when I enter the pits??), and entry fees that aren't trying to recover all the "Look at me, my racetrack's flasher than your's" bullshit expenses from the hobby racer.....,(Am I missing old Taupo and Baypark?)
When I'm King of NZ and have unlimited funds that's what I'm gonna build and most of you are invited.
The other type of circuits (you can figure that one out) are for people who are not invited to my tracks.
Yep.

[Oldfart]

Just to clarify my earlier post, these days I mention are mid week and untimed. For some just wanting to "scratch the itch" or do some settling of a new build etc, they really fit the bill. Still loads of timed events otherwise, evenings, weekends....

[Kwaussie]

Just to clarify my earlier post, these days I mention are mid week and untimed. For some just wanting to "scratch the itch" or do some settling of a new build etc, they really fit the bill. Still loads of timed events otherwise, evenings, weekends....

My thoughts are that you ask the person asking for all their new requirements for a copy of their up to date insurance certificate of currency.
You will not get it from them but it is fun to watch them squirm as they have to make urgent phone calls to seek clarification from HQ.
AASA who have caused havoc for CAMS in Australia may be trying to infiltrate the NZ scene via TQ.

[khyndart in CA]

55578
Here is a little something regarding vintage racing car requirements. "Sportscar Vintage Racing Assoc." SVRA.
From the land of "Ambulance Chasers".

https://svra.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/SVRA-General-Rules-1.18-1.pdf

KH

[Spgeti]

That’s a very good read Ken.

[Paul B]

Here is some more information in the form of U tube clips which are very informative with regard to choosing the correct FHR device to suit your car driving position and in the first clip, actually what happens in a collision and how this equipment works to save lives.
I suppose we are at a point now where it is here (as it is mandatory in some other nations, with some pre war & historic exceptions etc)
So, for me its is really just a case of getting on with it. It is what it is, 21st century safety is here now. That's just how I have to see it.
The timing of Hampton Downs and Highlands could have been managed much better, I am sure we all agree. Maybe HD & HL auto courses working more in conjunction and resolute with MSNZ would have been a much more suitable way forward, having 1 controlling body (MSNZ) with regard to on track safety is in my opinion the best and should still be the only option.
Anyway here are the clips

ignore or fast forward the first 22 seconds of this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiJgFlQrYhE Please ignore or fast forward the first 22 seconds of this video.

That's my sixpence worth.

[Paul B]

Also this is all about choosing the correct device

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTK99ebUOR0

My second sixpence worth.

[Oldfart]

FHR are not mandatory in "most OECD" nations Paul. Not in the UK either in many catergories.
However, having been in discussion with the Oval Racing and drag racing organisations this week in the UK (neither of whom mandate FHR!) I am tempted to express an alternate viewpoint.
If you are happy to spend thousands on an engine build, or a paint job, why not hundreds on the most expensive single component in the car, the driver? A month off work will cost more than an engine build, a year a whole lot more than the whole car.
A release from FIA in February means that new 5 belt harnesses will not be legal to sell from Feb 2018, yes months ago. 6 point is now the accepted standard. The whole release is available if anyone wants it posted.

[ERC]

Fair point Rhys about the relative costs, but this applies to 2K Cup cars, which is very much an entry level class, where they haven't spent mega dollars on the car.

In fact, for many, the cost of the suit, helmet, overalls, underwear extinguisher etc., probably cost way more than the car.

[nigel watts]

Probably THE most dangerous aspect of motor racing is actually driving to the venue on our roads.

[Oldfart]

Fair point Rhys about the relative costs, but this applies to 2K Cup cars, which is very much an entry level class, where they haven't spent mega dollars on the car.

In fact, for many, the cost of the suit, helmet, overalls, underwear extinguisher etc., probably cost way more than the car.

As you know I am at the very "budget" end of the sport on the odd occasion I get/got to participate. I totally understand the costs of the personal gear, and I abhor the constantly moving targets. Many distributors and manufacturers (you know this very well Ray) endeavour to provide quality safety gear at the very best price they can, or at least a range to suit.
Having a friend who owns a car in 2K, I was made aware very early that while the 2K purchase price is well controlled, there are so many ways that money, and plenty of it, is spent after the purchase. Examples are dyno time, new tyres which are faster than another variety, new paint job, panel beating, signwriting and a whole raft of others. The view I was expressing, which was given by someone I was speaking to still stacks up I think. Spend on the personal safety before some of those others.

In no way do I support the idea of pushing a cost to participants with such a short time frame, especially some of the things which have been pushed on to participants in NZ which are much higher than even FIA standard requirements. Most are still doing some level of budgeting, even if it is sketchy and to bring in unforeseen costs with such a short lead time is inexcusable.
I do wonder if ALL of the sellers of the FHR were warned so they have stock in hand to comply, if so, why not the competitors? If not, is it a selected supplier, which is even worse. Of course the affluent would just get their needs from someone, or somewhere else, although they probably knew this was coming.
The other issues, extinguisher while refuelling, hazmat etc have been around as a need for a long time, just not enforced. Perhaps refuelling should only be done in specified places, rather than where there are thousands of $ worth of other things around. I was shocked to see that it was allowed in pit garages with a whole load of other things going on nearby, electric tools being used etc etc.

[Limezed]

Personally I’m not concerned about the new requirements as I rather like to improve my chances on the track. And I understand that we can no longer live in an age where people can not be responsible for themselves.

However I’m a little confused reading HD’s “track torque” email stating FHR’s are mandatory but if you haven’t got one HD will hire you a foam neck brace. So does that mean Hampton Downs foam neck braces are allowed??

[Reeceracer]

Personally I’m not concerned about the new requirements as I rather like to improve my chances on the track. And I understand that we can no longer live in an age where people can not be responsible for themselves.

However I’m a little confused reading HD’s “track torque” email stating FHR’s are mandatory but if you haven’t got one HD will hire you a foam neck brace. So does that mean Hampton Downs foam neck braces are allowed??

I believe if you have a 4 point or more seatbelt you must run a Hans or similar, and you must have a foam collar if you have lap/diagonal belt setup.

[John McKechnie]

Limezed- foam neck collar for lap and diagonal belts only .

[Oldfart]

Interesting release I received yesterday, which is actually dated February. 5 point harnesses are no longer FIA acceptable from Feb 2018 on. For all FIA regulated motorsport NEW harnesses must be to the new 8853:2016 standard. The hologram label will be gold, rather than the previous silver ones.
Quoted from the release
"4 point harness to the OLD 8854:98 standard , this can only be used in certain historic championships if their regulations allow it. They can still be purchased new however ONLY to the old 8854:98 standard.
5 point harness these can can continue to be used under the old 8853:98 standard if they are within date. They CANNOT be purchased new as of January 2018.
6 point harness, these are the ONLY harness allowed under the NEW 8853:2016 FIA standard . Also they are only allowed with a moustache crutch strap, NO V straps allowed.
For 2018 1pt and 2pt crutch straps CANNOT be purchased as a separate item to be added to 2018 dated 4 point harnesses."

End of quote.

[Paul B]

This is the latest release from Motorsport NZ regarding the use of Frontal Head restraints with regard to regulation requirements and installation

Clearly there are many considerations with regard to the use of a FHR which must be all taken into consideration to have a correctly installed device befitting to the type of seat and harness which is fitted to the car being used.
It now appears that a 4 point harness cannot be used with a FHR, only 5 or 6 point harnesses.

57196

Also below are the FIA installation guides which have been provided by MSNZ:

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/hybrid_fhr_guide_and_instalation_specs.pdf

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/hans_guide_and_instalation_spec.pdf

[Oldfart]

What I posted (post #41) is FIA ruling and relates only to belts. Of course, many of us know that MSNZ has previously said that they may add to or delete from FIA rulings so they may be doing the same again. I do note that what you have copied still mentions the 5 point.

[ERC]

So, reading the above, my Marcos is no longer able to be raced at Hampton Downs as it does not have a competition seat and never could have as the driver sits on a cushioned floor and built in seat back. I suppose the same applies to any single seater? Or is this taken out of context?

[Paul B]

Probably best a call to MSNZ technical for that one Ray, for clarification.

There must be a few machines out there that either a seat (FIA standard 8855
-1999 or 8862-2009) does not fit or impractical for older single seaters.

I have just posted up what has just been released from MSNZ to help all concerned, for the greater good.... Racing.

[RogerH]

Probably best a call to MSNZ technical for that one Ray, for clarification.

There must be a few machines out there that either a seat (FIA standard 8855
-1999 or 8862-2009) does not fit or impractical for older single seaters.

I have just posted up what has just been released from MSNZ to help all concerned, for the greater good.... Racing.

We seem to have the bizarre situation where MSNZ are (correctly) stating that the use of FHR will be unsafe in certain circumstances (such as not having the correct FIA specified seat or not being able to achieve seat harness angle attachments) but HD/Highlands saying that FHRs have to be used no matter what. As most historic single seaters and sports cars can never achieve the FIA FHR standards due to how they were built, are HD/Highlands mandating the use of unsafe FHR installations ..... a risky position to take.

[ERC]

Is this being driven by external H & S consultants/advisors or are HD/Highlands scared of any legal implications, when I would have thought that the promoter is the one carrying the risk. Why is it that full harness belts are effectively illegal on the public roads? Does that mean NZTA have a legal liability in the event of a fatal accidemt as they allow people to drive with lap and diagonal 2" belts, at 100kmh?

Maybe TQ wants to drive out all amateur sport, all classics, historics and single seaters? Surely, someone must have a reason for implementing this new rule? Has anyone actually asked HD/HP/TQ?

[Grant Ellwood]

[QUOTE=RogerH;67469]We seem to have the bizarre situation where MSNZ are (correctly) stating that the use of FHR will be unsafe in certain circumstances (such as not having the correct FIA specified seat or not being able to achieve seat harness angle attachments) but HD/Highlands saying that FHRs have to be used no matter what. As most historic single seaters and sports cars can never achieve the FIA FHR standards due to how they were built, are HD/Highlands mandating the use of unsafe FHR installations ..... a risky position to take.[/


I fitted and use a 6 point harness with HANS in the A40, couldn't get the angles spot on because it's so cramped inside and I want to keep the original roll cage which wasn't designed for these latest ( or even preceding) harness regulations. But after studying the angles and anchor points I believe it adds safety rather than diminishing it.
I should also modify my kneecaps so they are not so close to my chin...

[RogerH]

Is this being driven by external H & S consultants/advisors or are HD/Highlands scared of any legal implications, when I would have thought that the promoter is the one carrying the risk.

I would think that it has been done with good intentions on a H&S basis and probably on the recommendation of so-called H&S experts who possibly have little knowledge of motorsport. By HD/Highlands mandating FHR use without conditions or discretion they are actually increasing their risk of H&S non-compliance as the industry experts (FIA) have done comprehensive studies to come up with FHR best practice. This best practice has identified situations where FHR use increases the risk of adverse driver well being outcomes and appropriate exemptions have been regulated. HD/Highlands are either unaware of this or have ignored it and accordingly must have put themselves at considerable risk.

[Allan]

I think I have read somewhere that FHR are best with seats with wings at helmet height. Does this mean that at some point we will all have to purchase a new seat?

[RogerH]

Hans were initially designed for F1 use where the high cockpit sides provide inherent protection for the driver's head from lateral movement. As such, the Hans only had to deal for fore and aft head movement which it controls very well.
However, in situations where there is no in-built lateral protection (high side single seater cockpits or FIA seats with a halo/wing set-up) the Hans does little to protect the driver's head in anything but a straight on impact - if the car is in an accident where the impact is at any acute angle then an FHR device that has a lateral protection component provides significant better protection - such FHR devices that provide lateral protection are the likes of the Simpson Hybrid and the Necksgen.
So to answer Allan's question, the alternatives seem to be either keeping the old seat and using an FHR that provides lateral protection or get a new seat with wings and use either type of FHR.
I use a lateral FHR and find it non-restrictive and comfortable.

[Reeceracer]

Ok - am I missing something here? According to the FIA installation guide Article 4.1 In a saloon car HANS devices MUST be used with a FIA approved seat. So does that apply worldwide or have the Gods of Hampton made a special rule without doing all their homework....there must be dozens of racers who have gone out and bought one that don't have an FIA seat....or does Hampton over rule the FIA?....

[Oldfart]

This release came from Historic Racing Club. It relates to events where VCC has involvement, however I am reasonably confident that a case could be argued for other occasions. Belts angles for HANS are mandated, using others may make the device worse than nothing.

"With regards to the trigger points that we use to implement the use of FHR here at HD, here is a summary of how we will apply these for the VCC events for the 2018/19 season:

if the vehicle is fitted with a minimum of a 4 point harness and has a high backed seat which constitutes a head rest then a tethered FHR device must be used
if the vehicle is fitted with a minimum of a 4 point harness fitted but when competing in period-build uses a low backed seat then a foam donut is required
for all vehicles fitted with a 3 point (lap and diagonal) belt system a foam donut is required
for all vehicles which, in period, are not fitted with any form of harness or safety belt system, the use on a neck support device is not required
please note that when and where a foam donut is required, this must be made of a fire retardant material meeting either FIA or SFI requirements".

There are many people that use FHR with seats other than the FIA specced ones, eg Can Am, F5000 etc. It would pay to get advice from a ruling body, in NZ MSNZ, as their requirements frequently (at least in the past) differ from FIA.

[nzeder]

Right so now I have to:

1. Fix the car for the coming season (engine issues after last season)
2. Purchase flame proof underwear
3. Have my cage modified so my belts are at the now 0-20 for FHR device
4. Get a FHR
5. Get new belts that are 6 point (5 points I have are ok for now...but...) - more welding to the floor of the car for new mounting point for the extra crutch straps
6. Get a seat that is designed for FHR and approved for the appropriate standard - that might not even fit in the car anyway....

Right so that adds up to more than the what I have spent in the last 3 seasons - only usually do 2-4 meetings due to costs already and this after I gave up building my Datsun 260z and purchased a Mini due to cheaper running cost and part availability (good luck finding good Datsun panels after a minor ding...hence my reason for change).

Looks like I made the wrong life choices - 4 kids take a lot of time and money leaving little for my "fun" and now the "fun" is getting to a point where I just can't afford to do it anymore working for wages....Lotto where are you...

I better join the younger generation and get a PS4/Xbox or PC and do my racing virtually :( and see you on the track in 10 years time or....never....

[Oldfart]

I'm guessing there are only 2, or perhaps 3 of those purchases that don't cost too much, and yes collectively it's a fair old lump Mike.
Due to the very precipitate announcement I know the NZ parent company of which I work for the European arm , was able to get a very good deal for FHRs which they passed on. Harness bar shouldn't be a biggy (come on MSNZ be realistic about cage mods) and undies aren't too bad.
Some of the others are big ones.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Many years ago we complained about the winners engaged in cheque book racing. It is now obvious that motor racing is confined to cheque book racing. Sport ??? Glad I am out of it.

[John McKechnie]

Mike L... along with the flameproof underwear, dont forget you also must have-
A-balaclava,
B-gloves and
C-correct sox.
These are not inspected at logbook time , but are surreptitiously noted before or after a race meeting...ask Rick Cooper.

[928]

wait until you all need the FIA specified F1 helmet which is under trial as we speak. only one manufacturer but the helmet is totally safe.
wait for the drivers to get a massive pay rise now they are being kept alive to spend it.

[Limezed]

John Mc - Historic racing don’t you guys need period correct gear like fire proof walk socks up to your knees, racing cheese cutter cap. Maybe be a fire proof silk scarf. ����

[John McKechnie]

I have it on good authority-
1-racing cheese cutter caps are for the Lotus brigade
2-silk scarfs are for Porsche 911/Jaguar XKs
3-fire proof walk knee lengths are for Mini 7s

[Limezed]

Good call John.

I’ll be looking forward to these becoming mandatory next season. It could be like the Goodwood Revival where each marque driver has to wear specific attire. Of course there would need to be a MSNZ fee to do so and maybe an ACC levy as well.

[Reeceracer]

You forgot the FHR compatible helmet to add to the list......just sayin........

Right so now I have to:

1. Fix the car for the coming season (engine issues after last season)
2. Purchase flame proof underwear
3. Have my cage modified so my belts are at the now 0-20 for FHR device
4. Get a FHR
5. Get new belts that are 6 point (5 points I have are ok for now...but...) - more welding to the floor of the car for new mounting point for the extra crutch straps
6. Get a seat that is designed for FHR and approved for the appropriate standard - that might not even fit in the car anyway....

Right so that adds up to more than the what I have spent in the last 3 seasons - only usually do 2-4 meetings due to costs already and this after I gave up building my Datsun 260z and purchased a Mini due to cheaper running cost and part availability (good luck finding good Datsun panels after a minor ding...hence my reason for change).

Looks like I made the wrong life choices - 4 kids take a lot of time and money leaving little for my "fun" and now the "fun" is getting to a point where I just can't afford to do it anymore working for wages....Lotto where are you...

I better join the younger generation and get a PS4/Xbox or PC and do my racing virtually :( and see you on the track in 10 years time or....never....

[Frosty5]

Mike L... along with the flameproof underwear, dont forget you also must have-
A-balaclava,
B-gloves and
C-correct sox.
These are not inspected at logbook time , but are surreptitiously noted before or after a race meeting...ask Rick Cooper.

John, sorry mate you are incorrect re inspection. All competitors must present their vehicle and clothing at scrutineering which I check. If they roll up to scrutineering without the appropriate clothing they have two choices, withdraw from the event or go and get the clothing. I was Chief Scrutineer for the NI Endurance events and the gentleman in question declined to wear his protective underwear claiming a triple layer suit was sufficient even though he had it - so how does that work???
Dave Graham
MSNZ Scrutineer 150253Y

[Oldfart]

John, sorry mate you are incorrect re inspection. All competitors must present their vehicle and clothing at scrutineering which I check. If they roll up to scrutineering without the appropriate clothing they have two choices, withdraw from the event or go and get the clothing. I was Chief Scrutineer for the NI Endurance events and the gentleman in question declined to wear his protective underwear claiming a triple layer suit was sufficient even though he had it - so how does that work???
Dave Graham
MSNZ Scrutineer 150253Y

I have no doubt you are right Dave, I still think it's pretty bizarre that you are put in a position to enforce MSNZ rules which are more strict than FIA. Triple layer plus underwear = sweat. More likely to be scalded by sweat turning to steam in a fire situation and they are medically horrendous to deal with. I do agree that some of the store bought undies are really bad (nylon etc) but another full layer?

[nzeder]

So does all this work for 2kcup guys or lemons where the whole idea is to keep the cheque book racing away and attract new drivers. 2k for a car. The 5k for safety gear to see if you like the sport in the first place.

Sure motorsport is not cheap we all get that. Yes safety is important and comes at a cost....get that.

I guess we will no longer have budget entry level classes and if you have spend $$ on safety gear might as well go all in and build a better car/hot rod that is faster and needs all this investment in safety gear.

I personally get why we need this as I am one of those temporary kiwis anyway who rides a motorcycle every day on the Auckland motorway system. So I am used to purchasing new helmets, boots, jackets, gloves etc on a regular basis. Maybe I should race bikes and not cars would be cheaper as all I need is a bike and helmet, leathers...hang on have all that already.....

And which would be more dangerous? Yep riding on the road every day in all weather conditions...which I do. So if you see me on the road (northern motorway CBD to Albany/Silverdale) I will be rider giving you a wave if you keep left (as recommended in the road code) and give me the space to go past (not at warp factor nine) while you travel at 20km/h

[Allan]

I did note some 2Kcup races shown on TV3 yesterday including incar with drivers without gloves.

[ERC]

When were the races though? Some of what appears on TV can be months old. Scrutineers can't check every car as it goes out on track.

How many people in anyone's memory have been at a track when fire has caused any injury? Anyone?

The last but one injury I can remember, a few years ago now, was an Alfa Sud at Pukekohe, where the driver suffered a broken arm - from the fire extinguisher, in the days before they were metal holders, when it broke loose and the plastic holder wasn't up to it.

The old 80/20 rule now applies to motorsport, as the greatest gains were made after 1950's, with hard hats, then treated Proban race suits, seat belts, then roll over protection and fire extinguishers and double and triple layer suits. All this up to maybe the 1990's?

All we have had since then has been some form of head and neck restraint.

Motorsport is Dangerous. Always has been, but it is a lot less dangerous now and we have exceeded the 80/20 rule and are now on the law of diminishing returns.

A double layer suit with cotton underwear gives a maximum of 30 seconds protection in the event of a fuel soaked driver catching fire.

May I suggest that the thousands HD are raking in on a spurious H & S charge would be better spent on ensuring a trapped driver can be reached by a fully equipped fire tender in a fair bit less than 30 seconds, because equipping a single manned marshal's post with just 1 extinguisher, which would NOT knock out a serious fire, and extinguish it, just doesn't cut it.

We are in the difficult situation of safety directives not now being related to the actual risks. There are other influences and I don't think that they are 100% safety related.

There has to be an entry level for the sport and there were many critics of the 2K Cup series, claiming that it would be carnage. Were they right or wrong? I haven't been to many meetings for 2K Cup competitors, but I'm willing to bet there have been fewer accidents and damage per car laps, than F5000 and even Historic Muscle Cars/Historic Saloons... Prove me wrong!

Number of injuries - fire related across all categories/laps driven over the last 15 years? Anyone?

[Frosty5]

When were the races though? Some of what appears on TV can be months old. Scrutineers can't check every car as it goes out on track.

How many people in anyone's memory have been at a track when fire has caused any injury? Anyone?

The last but one injury I can remember, a few years ago now, was an Alfa Sud at Pukekohe, where the driver suffered a broken arm - from the fire extinguisher, in the days before they were metal holders, when it broke loose and the plastic holder wasn't up to it.

The old 80/20 rule now applies to motorsport, as the greatest gains were made after 1950's, with hard hats, then treated Proban race suits, seat belts, then roll over protection and fire extinguishers and double and triple layer suits. All this up to maybe the 1990's?

All we have had since then has been some form of head and neck restraint.

Motorsport is Dangerous. Always has been, but it is a lot less dangerous now and we have exceeded the 80/20 rule and are now on the law of diminishing returns.

A double layer suit with cotton underwear gives a maximum of 30 seconds protection in the event of a fuel soaked driver catching fire.

May I suggest that the thousands HD are raking in on a spurious H & S charge would be better spent on ensuring a trapped driver can be reached by a fully equipped fire tender in a fair bit less than 30 seconds, because equipping a single manned marshal's post with just 1 extinguisher, which would NOT knock out a serious fire, and extinguish it, just doesn't cut it.

We are in the difficult situation of safety directives not now being related to the actual risks. There are other influences and I don't think that they are 100% safety related.

There has to be an entry level for the sport and there were many critics of the 2K Cup series, claiming that it would be carnage. Were they right or wrong? I haven't been to many meetings for 2K Cup competitors, but I'm willing to bet there have been fewer accidents and damage per car laps, than F5000 and even Historic Muscle Cars/Historic Saloons... Prove me wrong!

Number of injuries - fire related across all categories/laps driven over the last 15 years? Anyone?

Ray, I dont make the rules but just follow and enforce them, right or wrong. Please don't shoot the messenger but have to have made comment on what some has been listed here.
Cheers
Dave Graham

[Frosty5]

I have no doubt you are right Dave, I still think it's pretty bizarre that you are put in a position to enforce MSNZ rules which are more strict than FIA. Triple layer plus underwear = sweat. More likely to be scalded by sweat turning to steam in a fire situation and they are medically horrendous to deal with. I do agree that some of the store bought undies are really bad (nylon etc) but another full layer?

Rhys, unfortunately or fortunately that is the nature of the beast. I have some reservations about the rules but them are the rules and I have to follow them regardless of my personal views. If I don't there goes my licence. As I said to Ray, don't shoot the messenger, send concerns to MSNZ and argue the points.
Dave Graham

[Frosty5]

When were the races though? Some of what appears on TV can be months old. Scrutineers can't check every car as it goes out on track.

How many people in anyone's memory have been at a track when fire has caused any injury? Anyone?

The last but one injury I can remember, a few years ago now, was an Alfa Sud at Pukekohe, where the driver suffered a broken arm - from the fire extinguisher, in the days before they were metal holders, when it broke loose and the plastic holder wasn't up to it.

The old 80/20 rule now applies to motorsport, as the greatest gains were made after 1950's, with hard hats, then treated Proban race suits, seat belts, then roll over protection and fire extinguishers and double and triple layer suits. All this up to maybe the 1990's?

All we have had since then has been some form of head and neck restraint.

Motorsport is Dangerous. Always has been, but it is a lot less dangerous now and we have exceeded the 80/20 rule and are now on the law of diminishing returns.

A double layer suit with cotton underwear gives a maximum of 30 seconds protection in the event of a fuel soaked driver catching fire.

May I suggest that the thousands HD are raking in on a spurious H & S charge would be better spent on ensuring a trapped driver can be reached by a fully equipped fire tender in a fair bit less than 30 seconds, because equipping a single manned marshal's post with just 1 extinguisher, which would NOT knock out a serious fire, and extinguish it, just doesn't cut it.

We are in the difficult situation of safety directives not now being related to the actual risks. There are other influences and I don't think that they are 100% safety related.

There has to be an entry level for the sport and there were many critics of the 2K Cup series, claiming that it would be carnage. Were they right or wrong? I haven't been to many meetings for 2K Cup competitors, but I'm willing to bet there have been fewer accidents and damage per car laps, than F5000 and even Historic Muscle Cars/Historic Saloons... Prove me wrong!

Number of injuries - fire related across all categories/laps driven over the last 15 years? Anyone?

Ray, these 3 endurance races were held May, June, July this year 2018. While I agree with some of your sentiments, I cannot bend the rules for anyone and never would I do it. I do this job because of a passion for NZ motorsport and want to contribute for the great times I have had in the past and not because I want to be a little Hitler (should read large) but because i want to put something back into motorsport. Perhaps those that disagree should turn up to the annual AGM and put their point across - just asking.
Dave Graham

[nzeder]

Right I worked out why we have to have flame proof underwear. If we have to install halo seats in the future for head restraint compliance in a number of cars those with small interiors aka Datsun 240z, MG, Mini and Lotus if you make a halo seat fit then you can't get in and out easily. So if your car does catch fire you need all that protection as it will take minutes to get out past the halo seat not seconds as it should take.

[928]

Right I worked out why we have to have flame proof underwear. If we have to install halo seats in the future for head restraint compliance in a number of cars those with small interiors aka Datsun 240z, MG, Mini and Lotus if you make a halo seat fit then you can't get in and out easily. So if your car does catch fire you need all that protection as it will take minutes to get out past the halo seat not seconds as it should take.
you assume you are not stunned, and or knocked out, during the accident, before the fire started

[Oldfart]

Dave, in response to your comment in post#69, there have been numerous attempts to MSNZ over the years about so many issues, often met with the response "I worked for "stuol" in the UK so I know, that everyone I know gave up banging their head against walls. The roll cage issue was well thrashed about and nothing at all gained.
I started my post with this copy and paste "I have no doubt you are right Dave, I still think it's pretty bizarre that you are put in a position to enforce MSNZ rules which are more strict than FIA". I thought that was showing it's not you any of us are blaming.(or shooting the messenger)

[Frosty5]

Dave, in response to your comment in post#69, there have been numerous attempts to MSNZ over the years about so many issues, often met with the response "I worked for "stuol" in the UK so I know, that everyone I know gave up banging their head against walls. The roll cage issue was well thrashed about and nothing at all gained.
I started my post with this copy and paste "I have no doubt you are right Dave, I still think it's pretty bizarre that you are put in a position to enforce MSNZ rules which are more strict than FIA". I thought that was showing it's not you any of us are blaming.(or shooting the messenger)

Thanks Rhys, understand what you are saying. Was just trying to set the record straight after comments on post #57

[Oldfart]

Over here in the UK I had to buy new gloves,because the legal ones I have, and can't use any more, while obviously a pair, don't, and never did, have the tags on both. New suit required to be FIA latest marking for all levels of competition. No balaclava needed, no underwear, nor correct socks. (All under FIA/MSA). Goggles or face shield needed for all levels where full face is not mandated.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were consistency when organisations are operating under an "umbrella" organisation?

[Reeceracer]

Right I worked out why we have to have flame proof underwear. If we have to install halo seats in the future for head restraint compliance in a number of cars those with small interiors aka Datsun 240z, MG, Mini and Lotus if you make a halo seat fit then you can't get in and out easily. So if your car does catch fire you need all that protection as it will take minutes to get out past the halo seat not seconds as it should take.

Well here's a story I just have to relate which will probably cause some conjecture....
A few months back a good friend of mine bought a racecar which had Head Restraint seats fitted. Now being an older gentleman he is not as limber as he used to be and although not a small car he really struggled to extricate himself unaided between the seat wings/roll cage and roofline. Another real obvious problem was that you lost all peripheral vision with these particular seats. Not a good thing when going into Turn 1 at Puke/Hampton and there's a car alongside......
So we sold them and put some "standard" race seats in it and now not only can he get in and out safely and quickly but there is a lot less chance of causing an accident as he can see and sense other cars around him much better.
I drove this car before and after and agreed with the issues.
Does the whole cotton wool theory just go too far sometimes?.....

[Oldfart]

Well here's a story I just have to relate which will probably cause some conjecture....
A few months back a good friend of mine bought a racecar which had Racetech Halo seats fitted. Now being an older gentleman he is not as limber as he used to be and although not a small car he really struggled to extricate himself between the seat wings/roll cage and roofline. Another real obvious problem was that you lost all peripheral vision with these particular seats. Not a good thing when going into Turn 1 at Puke/Hampton and there's a car alongside......
So we sold them and put some "standard" race seats in it and now not only can he get in and out safely and quickly but there is a lot less chance of causing an accident as he can see and sense other cars around him much better.
I drove this car before and after and agreed with the issues.
Does the whole cotton wool theory just go too far sometimes?.....

I would hesitate to blame the seat, as there are clearly installation issues in this case for which, perhaps, the seat is taking the brunt of the blame, whereas there are other things to consider. The head restraint system clearly has side vision issues, all the manufacturers mention that.
I'm personally unsure about the applications in which some of the HR type seats (they are not halo) have been used, especially in cars where vision is an issue, however they have been shown clearly in testing to give a large margin of neck safety. Proviso, exit and entry times are actually mandated, would it have complied in this case?
Yes, I do work in the industry now.

[ERC]

Dave, no criticism of you at all. As Rhys points out, trying to get anything changed at the MSNZ Conference always sounds fine in theory, but when delegates of car clubs who don't have a single member racing, vote on issues they don't actually understand, you are never going to get common sense.

The discussion here is where a circuit has made up the rules and there are several who know that there is more to this than meets the eye.

Talking about exiting car which is on fire, I was given a track ride in Rob' B's Ferrari 430 fitted with a cage. It took me ages to get out and yes, many of us are not as lithe, flexible or athletic as we were 50 years ago... I couldn't even get out unaided - and that was without a helmet or any neck device. My personal opinion is that the driver should be able to get out of the car in a matter of just a few seconds as there is a far better chance of survival than being trapped in a tub of burning fuel, where we all know that help will NOT be there within 30 seconds in maybe 90% of cases.

[Allan]

Ran as co-driver in a Targa a few years back in a Celica GT4 and both of us (not that young or agile) wondered about getting out in a hurry in case of fire. It's amazing the incentive that flames licking out from the bonnet scoop provides.

[Andrew Metford]

Below is a link for a 2 day race meeting for a round to the State Championship in Perth, Australia in 2 weeks' time. Historic Touring Cars, Sports Sedans, Formula Ford, Regularity Trial are all on the bill a very similar style of meeting to Icebreaker etc. Take a look at the entry fees on page 3, and the Scrutineering part on pages 7 and 8, particularly part 5 Apparel on page 8. Have a read of the whole document, it makes for an interesting comparison to a corresponding document in NZ.

https://www.wascc.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Supp-Regs-Sept-1516-v2.pdf

Now try and tell me we're not getting the short end of the stick here on 2 fronts - all the "compulsory" items ( FHR + suitable helmet + suitable seat, spill mats, fire truck in attendance to put petrol in your car, fireproof underwear, gloves, test tags on electrical equipment - the list goes on and on), and the costs ( entry fees, garage hire, safety levy etc).

[Oldfart]

A little further to the comment about seats with HR (halo). I have been speaking with the designer/conceptualiser. The HR wings are designed in such a way that they should not be forward of the eye sockets, so that 90 degree vision is available without turning the driver's head. If the "wings" are forward of that point with helmet worn, there is something not right. I'm guessing that very few people have peripheral vision to that extent, so it's inevitable that the driver will turn his head, thus the eye on that side would be behind the wing. Awareness of other cars should be from proper mirror use?
Escape from the car.. if the HR is an issue, perhaps there is an installation issue?

[John McKechnie]

Have just checked with the Super-Kart guys about the FHR
I was told that they are different because they dont have seat belts...so no FHR needed.
Only passing on what I was told

[Oldfart]

Have just checked with the Super-Kart guys about the FHR
I was told that they are different because they dont have seat belts...so no FHR needed.
Only passing on what I was told

I understand that many of them (don't know about super karts) use a chest mounted system for neck support, especially the younger drivers.