What's the answer?

[Allan]

Or should that be "is there an answer?"
Firstly let me apologize to Nigel Watts for hi-jacking his thread.
I have read with interest the comments on Nigel's threat bought about by my question as to what happened to the second day at the weekends Hampton Downs meeting. We in the northern part of the North Island are blessed with the three major race venues the are easily accessible for those who live in an area bounded by Taupo in the south and Auckland in the north with these tracks that we can drive to and from in the same day thus negating the need for accommodation etc. But that's not the main issue here. It's what we get to see when we get to the venue of our choice where the problem lies. I am old enough to remember the great club meetings held at Pukekohe on the club circuit with up to 30 quick fire races held in a day, and ok some of the fields weren't huge but the circuit was small enough that boring races ( if there was one) were over quickly and as soon as one race finished the next group was out before the previous competitors had made their way down the back straight to the pit area.
When the V8 supercars were racing at Pukekohe before they went to Hamilton I went to a meeting that was held before the V8 event and found what to me was a major issue. I have been to Pukekohe many times and watched racing from all different parts of the circuit but I now found that if I sat on the hill I couldn't see down the straight and if I sat in the stands I couldn't see the top of the hill because someone had put a bridge across the track obscuring my view. My answer to the problem was to stay at home and watch it on TV.
The issue today as I see it, is small fields on long tracks. I like Hampton Downs as a spectator track where one can get close to the action and see much of the track from a variety of vantage points, particually if the racing is on the "national" circuit. But to have two meetings on the same weekend is really a nonsense. It may well have been that each meeting had different groups or classes racing but there are some of us that would have gone to at least one day of each meeting.
I watched most of the NZ verses Pakistan cricket T20 game yesterday and wondered where the crowd was. Not to many years ago the venue would have been full but not any more and this seems to be the same for many major sporting fixtures in NZ. The tennis is different, once a year, good competitors and it's the place to be seen. Is this an answer?
Has the lack of TV coverage of NZ motorsport meant that a large number of potential spectators do not get a preview of what can be seen live if they get the opportunity to go and physically watch. I will be interested to see how many go to the Hamilton sevens although it seems to be as much a drinking contest as a football tournament.
To those of you who compete (and those of us who don't, or no longer do, thank you for your dedication) has the cost of competing making you think carefully about which events and how many you choose to do? As has been said many times before there are hundreds of good race cars parked away in garages all over the country not doing what they should be doing.
Allan Cameron

[rf84]

Allan. Your analysis is probably quite correct. Too many circuits, too many events, too many classes and too expensive. I have been a spectator since 1965 and a competitor since 1970. But I just can't get enthused anymore. Recent meetings with entries of typically 10 or less cars per race won't excite many people.

[Reeceracer]

Allan, I know for some of us your last paragraph says it all. Unfortunately I have a disease which makes it very hard to stay off the racetrack but I'll give you an example.
When I originally started building the Merc it was to replace the Imp that we retired after winning the 2014 NZGT Championship. Halfway through the build I went to the AGM and found that due to the desire to join the "tier 1" meetings the entry fees for each round went from $295-$320 to $550 for 3 races with nothing extra to offer sponsors. They explained that you would now get Friday testing free but I have never done a Friday test in my life and have no need to.Especially when some of us have work/kids at school. So why should I have to pay for something I won't use?? Tough. Now, I love that class and the people involved in it but for us racing is a hobby and we have to look at bang for buck.
So I pulled the mods back so we would be eligible for ERC, a great class in it's own right which not only has a much better entry fee, but also the meetings mostly have better support classes to watch (F5000,HMC,HSS,etc vs 4 NZV8's and a bunch of SSangyongs...).
However it still means that we have to be selective on how many meetings we can afford a season and last week was a good example...I had the foresight to realise that surely with such a big attractive meeting on at Taupo who would turn up at Hampton??
I'm sure there are many others in the same boat.....
Also on the subject of fees - why does it cost me $70 to hire a transponder at Hampton and only $30 or sometimes free at Taupo??
Maybe the promoters need to work together a bit more and everyone would be happier, is there to many ego's involved?....dunno...I'm just a racer.
On a sad note, it seems a shame that Mr Quinn and his crew have undone all the hard work that the previous January Festival (McLaren, Hulme,Amon,etc) organisers had put in to make those extraordinary meetings to attend.....just my thought.

[touringcarfan]

You raise some great points Allan on a subject that keeps me awake at night:) I really am joking but I do ponder this from time to time. Over the summer we have 4 entities running events on the 4 North Island circuits...Speedworks, HRC, Auckland Car Club and the Independent Race Series. We then also have a number of entities promoting various standalone events so we end up with a very busy calendar.
We certainly have too many race classes and I will comment on these as I go. The big problem I have is the mix and match nature of some of these meetings and in my mind we should have 4 defined calendars as follows:

Speedworks
HRC Modern
HRC Historic / Classic
Auckland Car Club

I have not included Taupo or Manawatu Car Clubs as they seem to run their respective winter series.

The standalone events...Supercars, MG Classic, Hampton Festival, Taupo Historic GP, Hampton GT event and the South Island Classics fortnight...could form the backbone around which the other calendars are based and it is important to remember that clashes will be inevitable.

Speedworks are generally promoting classes that don`t impact on the other groups too much and the bulk of their schedule revolves around the TRS. HRC Modern could join this schedule over the busy January February timetable which leaves HRC Historic to run their events over the same time frame.

The Auckland Car Club schedule would take care of itself and these are largely one day affairs anyway. And I have liked the occasions where TACCOC have run their one day events on the other day of the same weekend.

And so we come to all those classes run under HRC Events and IRC...as there seems to be some cooperation between these 2 entities. The biggest tidy up in a busy calendar could come from this lot. So here goes...draw a line in the sand and have 2 schedules or groups of classes and then work out which are relevant and can any be merged.

Classic / Historic - classes on this schedule would be the following:

Classic Touring Cars - still should have gone with Heritage and worked with the South Island group with an emphasis on genuine cars.
I can see a grid of replicas that would be more suited to Improved Production - time will tell.
TraNZam Challenge
Formula 5000
Historic Muscle Cars / Historic Saloon Cars - when grid sizes allow then run as 2 separate groups.
Hooters Series
BMW Series
Historic Formula Ford
Formula Junior
ERC Series - the 2 groups
Formula Libre - if Atlantics can muster 15 or more then run a separate grid:)
Classic Trials
Trofeo Series
Historic Sports Sedans and Allcomers
Pre 65

If wanted or needed then those groups that want to run with TACCOC or the standalone meets as have previously can do so. NO MODERN CLASSES AT THESE MEETINGS. Spectators then know that they are turning up to a CLASSIC meet and not some pick and mix.

The modern classes are:

Improved Production - given time you can run 2 groups - Under 2L and Over 2L - just like in Australia. If everyone could agree on
closing down some other groups and merging them into IP then I almost guarantee capacity grids!
2K Cup
Formula Ford
Honda Cup
NZ Sportscars
Super Karts
Super Lap
Rotary Race Enthusiasts

and including

Super Six / HQ
Super Mini Challenge
SS2000
K Sports Sedans

Pro 7 Mazdas and Formula First could run here if they needed extra rounds outside of the Speedworks schedule.

Across both Modern and Historic remember that not every class listed has to race at those meetings but draw a line in the sand in terms of what classes run at what type of meeting so far as HRC Events is concerned.

Remember at the standalone events you might get a mix due to the various promotions preferences.

Are you all confused? Can this be any worse than the confusion out there now?

Anthony

[ERC]

Good to start a thread on this Allan and we tried on the 'Ten Tenths' message board where there was a lot of very lively debate but it got out of hand and legal action was threatened! So much for free speech.

1) Too many circuits: No way!

2) Too many classes: I may be in the minority, but totally disagree here too - but see last comments.

3) Too expensive - for spectators: Debatable as there are several free events but with Premium events (Bathhurst Festival) it has to be value for money. It wasn't, so yes, that makes it too expensive. Leadfoot at $57, sounds expensive, but is worth it.

4) Too expensive - for competitors. Yes. Motorsport has never been cheap but entry fees have doubled over the last two years and that is the key issue for many people, particularly amateurs and even more of a problem for the retirees.

Three or more years ago, putting on a 1 day meeting at HD, where you could run six race groups - 1 practice, 3 x 8 lap races = 24 track sessions on the National Track. Each grid theoretically had to have $2,000 in entry fees to cover costs and advertising was a waste of money. I can assure you that there were several grids subsidised by the larger grids at many meetings.

Happy to be corrected here, but I heard a whisper that HD wanted something like $10,000 from a potential grid to appear at the Bathhurst Festival. I'm sure that figure can be validated (or denied) by group convenors. Do the math as they say.

5) Small grids - especially on televised races, has in my very humble opinion, done more to drive spectators away, than any other single factor. When I got back Sunday and switched on TV3, what do we get? BNT V8s, two classes, a total of just 10 cars.

6) Too many televised one/two make races and especially utes, has also done the sport no favours at all. Advertisers might get TV exposure for their 'brand' or whatever, but it has done nothing to make the sport more attractive for paying spectators. TV watchers aren't dumb. If they see a grid of 10 cars, they may as well watch on TV or not watch at all.

We had to fight to get the ERC Group at the Festivals and up until then, many of us had done the first two Festivals, then got totally fed up of paying for 3 scratch races where our road cars were lapped within 4 or 5 laps by out and out sports racers so we didn't even get the laps we'd paid for! Boring to watch. Boring to compete. May as well have done a track day.

For the next couple of years, many of us just went as spectators and I submitted an analysis of the number of starters and finishers for each race group, just to show that as spectators, it wasn't really good value as only the BMW E30's managed over 20 cars on a grid and that was only just.

HD has a 46 car maximum for saloons, so grids of under 15 are not exactly going to get value for money and will vote with their feet/wallets next time.

The next problem is that in classics/historics/vintage, the performance variations are huge. This has a double whammy effect.

a) Drivers can feel intimidated if sharing the track with much faster cars - there can be safety issues.
b) Drivers are not happy paying for 8 laps or 6 laps and getting fewer.

Theoretically, modern motorsport should be huge and classics/historics a minority. We have to then ask why the reverse is the case?

Yes, years ago, club events were popular and crowds were large. I know from the paperwork I have from some UK races, that not only were crowds large, but they could pay start money to 'star' drivers and at the end of the season, many club drivers had their entry fees returned, as long as they competed regularly with that specific club.

We could pontificate for hours as to why most sports no longer have the paying spectators they did decades ago, so therefore the model for running most meeting is now 'user pays' - in other words, run for drivers, paid for by drivers. Sorry to say it, but generally, relying on spectator income for maybe 90% of events is not on.

The other problem we have as a perception of 'too many series' or race groups is partially an issue, but look at the history of why some classes started, whether or not they have grown and why many competitors have walked away from them. You'll hear all sorts of tales as to why cars are parked up in garages.

rf84 may know the answer to this one. Given that Formula Fords have been around for half a century, how come the Historic Formula Ford field isn't huge?

How come Clubmans' isn't huge? Part of the answer to that one was explained to me by the driver of a 1300 or 1600cc Clubman. He wasn't happy being blasted into oblivion by newer 2,000 Turbo cars.

So, we should have 1,000's of competitors and cars out there - old and new.

HD entry fee, $60 goes to MSNZ. A $25 Health and safety levy - from each competitor? Really? What are drivers actually getting for that? Circuit hire fees? Well, they have to make a profit. Hire of radios, medical and breakdown crews etc., so we NEED large grids.

Some classes/groups might have to amalgamate but ask why we get splinter groups, and it is usually because there is a philosophical difference, some of that is unfortunately due to self interest.

Just as an example, the two ERC Series could return to a single grid, or maybe even amalgamate with Alfa Trofeo. Whilst that could mean two fewer groups, it could also mean fewer competitors overall, as either newer, slower ones wouldn't like sharing the track with fast cars such as Clark Proctor and Bruce Manon, OR, would we have to dump the faster cars to encourage newcomers?

I'm a well known champion of more than one class in a race or grid and also of handicap racing. But who knows what will happen, but we can't ever allow a two day meeting with just 5 classes, premium or club.

Between moderns, bikes, karts, classics, and drifters etc., three tracks should be OK.

[Spgeti]

Hi Anthony,

To add to your list, Central Muscle Cars, Northern Muscle Cars and Production Muscle Cars.

Some good points.

Cheers
Bruce

[touringcarfan]

Hi Bruce

I left out Central as they are a law unto themselves and appear to enjoy appearing at the large standalone events and some Speedworks events. Northern and Production are Auckland Car Club so are not included in my list for HRC.

I agree with Ray that 4 tracks is more than enough but I really would like to see a tidy up of schedules and race classes and the way these are managed.

Anthony

[ERC]

Shouldn't pre 65's belong in the earlier group Anthony?

BMW have 3 series - E30, under 2 litre and over 2 litre. often the E30s are two grids. This in itself can create a bit of a problem, as there is a real mix of what we'd call classic and modern;

Alfa Trofeo and also ERC have mutually slackened off the age criteria, so there is a distinct overlap between classic and modern. This doesn't exactly meet with universal approval but is a pragmatic approach to maintain entry numbers.

We all remember the days when sports car grids were filled with Morgans, Lotus, MG, Daimlers, Austin Healeys, Bucklers etc., so the mix has changed considerably - and probably always will.

The recent emergence of the Historic Sport Sedans and the inclusion of the Historic Saloons into HMC has been a welcome move and now both grids are viable. So, maybe the question is - do we have the occasional 'speed group meeting' again, where BMW E30's would be sharing the track with MGs and Alfas, or would drivers stick to only doing points meetings because of budgetary constraints?

That is a gamble I wouldn't want to take. Promoters and officials alike have welcomed the various series as it has made their jobs so much simpler. Better to deal with a convenor who can sort out hiccups within his or her group, before and during the meeting - even without series being sanctioned and I know only too well from past experience, that open meetings rarely attracted the same sort of support - and often meant totally mismatched cars on track together.

If you had been driving my rather slow, road registered GT in a wet race, sharing the Pukekohe track with the Lighting Direct Porsches for example, you'd probably do what I did and retire after two laps!

[touringcarfan]

Hi Ray

I have edited Pre 65 from Modern to Classic. The BMW Series is a strange one but I will leave it with Classic in this instance.

Personally I have no problem with more modern cars creeping into ERC and Trofeo...but as classes I would still include them into Classic as this where the origins of the class arose.

Anthony

[touringcarfan]

Further to your last post Ray...I have no desire to see speed groups at these meets (fine if promoters want to do this at their standalone meets) but at HRC meets lets stick to actual race classes and combine where suitable if low entries dictate.

I also believe that each class will only ever be as strong as the class coordinators are enthusiastic.

Anthony

[rf84]

I still maintain we have too many circuits given our population. NZ has a population approximately the same as Sydney and/or Melbourne. How many permanent circuits does either of those cities have? In fact, NZ probably has as many permanent circuits as all of Australia! How about the UK? Population around 80 million people? How many permanent circuits are there in the UK?
We found some interesting stats in the Hawkes Bay Car Club back in the '70's. Until the mid '70's the Club ran 5 speed events a year-2 standing 1/4 mile Sprints, 2 sealed hillclimbs and 1 Clubmans (circuit) meeting. The Club would accept the first 45 entries for each event and any extras would be placed on a "reserve" list. After the mid '70's the number and variety of events increased-shingle hillclimbs, rallies, rallysprints and autocrosses were added to the calendar. Using a simple formula of multiplying the number of events by the number of competitors at each event we came up with a total number of entries for the year. What we discovered was that even though the club offered more events, the number of entries for the year was almost exactly the same as when there were only 5 events. In other words, people became more selective about which events they entered.
The same applies on a National level now. Creating a new class does not necessarily increase the number of competitors-in many cases it simply takes competitors from another class. Similarly, running a meeting at Taupo and another at HD on the same weekend is not going to increase the number of competitors overall. It will likely be detrimental to the number of entries at each circuit, especially given their close geographic proximity. If one of those 2 circuits were say in the South Island it would be a different situation.
ERC you raise the question of Historic FF numbers. I began racing FF before there was an Historic FF class. A few years ago we regularly got 20-30 entries in Historic FF but numbers have decreased since then. Last year I was a spectator at the Tasman Revival meeting at Taupo. There were 2 Historic FFs competing! When I enquired of one of the competitors why this might be he invited me into his fully enclosed trailer and pointed to a year planner on the wall with 18 possible events for the season!
Personally I sold my FF in January 2016. It was costing around $1000 per weekend to do events taking into account travel costs, accommodation, entry fees, transponder hire and licence fees. That did not include any car related costs. For about $200 more I enjoyed 8 days in Samoa last winter. 3 days at Manfeild or 8 days in Samoa? No contest really. My FF has (like so many cars) disappeared into a shed and has not been seen in 2 years. It's new owner has a genuine F2 Chevron with genuine Brian Hart 2 litre engine which he imported 9 years ago. It too has never turned a wheel in anger in NZ.
Look around at the competitors these days. How many 20 to 50 year olds do you see? (2K Cup and drifting excepted). The younger ones are out at the local river with their jet skis or trailbike or (if they are hard core adrenalin junkies) jumping off cliffs with paragliders.

[touringcarfan]

Hi rf84

You raise an interesting point regarding the number of circuits. Where would we be if they had not of built Hampton Downs? Using Pukekohe more than we now appear to? Would we therefore have the choice of meetings that we now do? Have we created our own problems we now face?

I entirely agree with your point regarding the introduction of new classes. Again all this does is offer competitors too much choice and then other classes run the risk of depleted grids.

And the age of competitors versus the various classes is something that I discussed with dad as we drove home from Taupo on Sunday. How many `young ones` will want to race a 1970 Capri in 10-20 years time? The only reason my brothers raced the Escorts and Capris is because dad was racing a Capri...he made the car cool in their eyes and they wanted to be a part of that. It was also cheaper than a V8 Touring Car...so that helps.

Anthony

[ERC]

Some good points.

Historic FF may well have 18 race possibilities, but that is the exception rather than the rule. If I'd built a competition car, I'd want more than 4 or 5 events a season. When I first inherited the BMC Series, we had about 9 committed drivers- not enough.

Fortunately, we managed a niche in the system that eventually grew from BMC to Leyland to British to European - and there it has stayed - more or less... Other gaps have subsequently been filled so that currently, it appears there is somewhere for everyone to race.

In terms of classic/historic saloons and traditional sports cars, some may well have two choices - some even more. Some are limited to just one race group, only by virtue of age, CoD/no CoD, origin, Marque, road tyres/race tyres, road registered/non-road registered, 100% period correct.

That is healthy so what we often get is a car dual entered - great on a two day meeting where there may be a lot of hanging around, but the majority of classic clubs don't charge extra fees - but it does mean that what appears to be a financially viable grid, isn't!

Maybe one answer is to just sell a grid at a fair price? For example, if break even is say $2,500 a grid, then charging $2,750 or $3,000 would give the promoters a profit.

It would then force the smaller groups to combine or pay the additional entry fees. That would possibly focus the convenors on selecting appropriate meetings BUT, it relies on drivers making a commitment. A decent grid could then reduce entry fees or make small profit for the series. Just a thought.

[Oldfart]

Once upon a time... MANZ, as it was would decline a permit application if there was a similar event too close geographically that would conflict, but then things were "promoted" by hard working volunteers rather than business entities. I'm not for a minute saying that could work in the current environment as there are just too many issues that have been brought into the "big picture". However, some entity has to look for the greater good of the viability of events for both those who run the cars, and the circuits which need to operate as often as they can to be viable.
Too many circuits? I don't think so. Pukekohe hardly count now anyway as a spectator can't see much. The horse racing club has always restricted the number of days it can run anyway. HD was initiated just because folks moaned there were not enough circuits. Those who started the whole idea of HD and the Tony Roberts and Chris Watson for having the kahunas and foresight to see the need and keep carrying the ball forward have my utmost admiration, otherwise the discussion would be that there is nowhere to run the cars! (Perhaps that is part of why so many went into sheds?)
Too many classes? Perhaps, but they can always combine to keep grids better filled if needs be.
Classes that don't appeal to spectators? Maybe, personally Central Muscle and Pre 65 are hot rods and if I want to see them I will go to Kumeu or the drags to see them. I did say personally, and I loved the allcomers, so I have no idea why those 2 classes have no appeal to me.
What is the thing which gets crowds? I do see that meetings here where I now live in the UK still get big crowds, who travel for hours (and queue at the gate for an age), so are NZ possible spectators just too ready with the excuses, cost, accommodation, food costs too much etc and not really enthusiastic about going anyway? Even an almost Vintage (pre war) only meeting I went to had thousands and had almost no promotion. It's difficult to find what events are on here, you have to go looking to find them, so promotion isn't the simple answer.
Good discussion though Noel.

[Allan]

Some very good points being raised here and I thank you all for your contributions so far.
A little quick research brings up some interesting numbers from the main Targa events.
In 2003 nearly 200 entries, 2007 120 and 2017 around 60.
Is there a theme forming here that carries on to circuit racing. In some classes yes but in others as some of you have mentioned no, but the difference seems to be in the organisation of the class. Am I being too harsh on some organizers or am I somewhere near the mark?
Allan

[touringcarfan]

This is a discussion that needs to be had. I acknowledge that my ideas are but a mere dream and I honestly don`t see a lot changing in my life time. I will go and watch dad race but these days I live at the countries speedway tracks...a good number of classes and you generally know what you are in for. Yes there are problems within speedway but as a paying spectator there is not much to complain about.

Anthony

[Michael Clark]

Not too many circuits...but too many clashes.

My guess is that promoters won't let these double ups occur in the future.

[ERC]

Rhys brings up an interesting point regarding the UK.

Crowds vary though. The first post war Donington meeting in 1977 was a financial disaster for the sponsors as the expected crowds never materialised, even though the meeting very nearly didn't go ahead, due to a last minute protest by the local ramblers. However, there are three cities close by - Leicester, Derby and Nottingham, yet the Nottingham papers virtually ignored it and to this day, rarely cover motorsport.

The NZ Herald virtually never covers club level local motorsport either and I don't believe the Bathurst Festival had any stories prior to the meeting at all. Certainly no mention of returning Kiwi Jim Richards. In that respect, circuit motorsport doesn't exist and most Australian V8 reports are a few lines and F1 is usually totally ignored.

Update: * Report and pictures in today's (Wednesday) Herald by Colin Smith of the Taupo meet...

So the general non-motorsport fraternity wouldn't even know it existed that being the case, the youngsters aren't exactly going to be pleading with dad to take them.

We have to remember that the catchment area for Pukekohe and Hampton Downs is over 1 million people so we aren't even getting a measurable percentage spectating. We get a higher percentage competing! There is something very weird about that.

The other issue that really needs addressing is the tardy attitude of drivers, who do themselves no favours by not entering early. If you don't get an entry in early for many UK events, you don't get an entry at all! Just before Christmas, a week before the meeting, across two classes, 21 entries. Come the day, over 40. Unfortunately, and maybe I shouldn't say it, but that seems to be a Kiwi thing, as I had the same ongoing issues in another sport and also a trade association.

Late entry fee should be $100, not $20!

How can organisers promote the meeting when there is nothing to promote until the day before the meeting? John publishes his group on here and promotes his class. I used to send out reminders and entries to date to ERC members. Alfa Trofeo do the same, but no one can promote a meeting if no one has entered!

Leadfoot has the entry list/programme on line and casual spectators need to access that information, but if there are only five small grids, it isn't exactly going to attract the casuals and even the diehards aren't going to be enthusiastic.

Maybe there needs to be a website where the programme and entry lists can be accessed for any circuit, any meeting? Friday of the Bathurst Festival, (Practice day) there weren't even any programmes or entry lists available. It was only by looking at CRO Wendy's sheets that I had any idea of what was going on and couldn't believe I'd seen every group run before 11am!

Sorry, not supposed to be a bitching post, but in some respects, the communications age hasn't really been of any great advantage to the sport.

[Oldfart]

I wonder, Ray, if the late entry "penalty" is used by people other than myself who were doing all they could to have the car ready for an event but not sure if they could make it? Better for them to pay the penalty fee than lose everything when with a few days to go they can't achieve it? Yes, I do understand it's a pain for the organisers, but I know I have "lost" a lot of money through entering on time and then failed to be ready.

Everything for the competitor has escalated. Entry costs, preparation being needed to a much higher level, so backyard almost goes away, compulsory transponder (even if you know you will just be an also ran), everyone thinks they have to stay in flash hotels, or expensive motorhomes, pit garages fresh tyres, racing where even the competitors think that "rubbing is racing", the list goes on.

Of course "we" have been told that grass roots motorsports should be done in paddocks so the real base level has gone, sadly I think maybe forever. Just look at what even the lowest classes think is vital, 4wd for club events, multiple sets of wheels and tyres.

Thank goodness for having been around for "the good old days" when you ran what you had, tried very hard not to bend it, stayed in a tent (or under the trailer) and drove home to be at work on Monday. Probably drove the car to work all week too :) But those days are gone.

[Kiwiboss]

Back then the grids were small but the crowds large.............almost the opposite today in most cases...........?

[Kiwiboss]

I believe we all need to make the most of what we have as we'll all be gone(as in RIP) before the sport dies.............nothing is perfect, circuit racing is in a minority these days and is slowly tapering off, its death knell will be financial RE: becomes too expensive for competitors so they stop turning up and we have no spectators anyway, then its all over. Hampton over time will be consumed by housing and gone, Puke is protected by the horse people.....

Anthony, you are correct about Speedway, they are more organized and put on a great show and don't keep adding new classes, the BIG plus is it is only 3 hours of your time on a Saturday night, an easy sell.

CAMS Australia have controlled circuit motorsport particularly historic racing with an iron fist and reap the rewards today(they still have issues but minor) were MSNZ;s total hands off approach has ruined it over here.............I even have a breakaway group trying to form within HMC because they don't like what I'm doing, and are infact quite entitled to do so under our NZ system were anyone with an idea can go "Hey, lets start a class" and you are also rite Anthony, unless you have your family or young persons coming though the said class will eventually die.

On the flip side, at Hampton Festival, although no crowd the Central Muscle Car guys had a 30 car grid and put on a great show, now that is one expensive class, you can almost see the $100 bills blowing by in the pits yet they always turn up with a large grid, they have more cars in the build some upwards of $400K, there entry fee's are expensive and yet they always have numbers..............hell they even took 30 cars to Bathurst last year and had to be back in 3 weeks time for the Hampton 101 and then a week later Puke Supercar round, can you imagine the spend to do this? so why is this so just for this class(I consider then NZ premier Tier 1 group) so we can't say its about the money as that's not the case with these guys, and as we speak they have 30 cars going to the South Island for Skope and Timaru.......no other group can do this?

[John McKechnie]

#20
Dale- You are 100% correct , (I was there then and still here now)
Backed up by reports in Motorman and Autonews.
And the racing was not always exciting.- but we loved watching the visiting V8s

[John McKechnie]

fans come to see cars, drivers and also to see them race.
A short one day/ evening meeting is great for the fans.-plenty of action, then go home. Just like Speedway. I loved Waikaraka Park in 70s

1-Does motor racing exist for the fans

2- is it a formula whose classes need changing just to keep fans interested.

3-Does more carnage on the track add to the excitement of a class to keep the crowds returning?

4-Should there be a compulsory age retirement so the car passes to the next generation so Historics arent seen as geriatric racing and unattainable.

5- track location. The Mount was great with motor camps, the beach, real summer holiday place.
HD has the track only, nothing else there.
At Taupo, after racing there is the Lake, lakefront...holiday place feeling.
Manfeild, Pukekohe there is the town very close by for after racing or the family to visit.

6 - dont let the race meeting drag on with long races. plenty of 6 lappers

[Allan]

From what I have read so far I get the following impression.

1/- Too many circuits........ NO
2/- Too many classes........ Maybe
3/- Lack of discussion between venues about date clashes........yes
4/- Entry fees too expensive.........probably

Those of you old enough to remember the late 60s and early 70s will no doubt recall the great days of the Tasman meetings and the crowds that turned out for those and the competitors who made a great effort to make sure that they attended at least the meetings closest to their home town.

[John McKechnie]

Allan..

3- There is again a clash this weekend also.- Premier -TRS-at Hampton Downs, Tranzam at Taupo

4- Taupo in the weekend was free entry for our Historic classes and that made a HUGE difference to us. Thank you so much BMMP Ltd.

[ERC]

Rhys. The ASR's often state that the entry fee will be refunded in full if the organisers are notified before documentation commences. No excuse.

I lost count of the number of phone calls I got after midnight, or my wife got at 6am, when some elated driver asked if he could enter, as he'd just finished screwing his car together. When I'd already left home at 5:30am, my wife was less than pleased...

Dale. You have a philosophy about what your cars should be and ERC/Alfa Trofeo, have a philosophy of what their cars should be. CMC and pre 65's also have a philosophy that appears to work for their drivers. I could name several other series that have fallen over - and also cite the reasons for some of them.

People running off with a different philosophy is fine, just as long as they can turn up with a viable grid which satisfies the financial criteria of the organisers. If the organisers seek to put on a grid that ends up with just 3 cars running (Taupo last weekend apparently and even your own group at several TACCOC meetings I recall), that is a risk they take. I seem to remember a post of yours where you were getting very depressed about the lack of support you were getting and you made the sensible decision to include Historic Saloon Cars.

The financial constraints are still the biggest bar to competing regularly and the true entry level of Classic Trial, is no longer a low cost entry route, which is why they are not swamped with entries. That one class should in theory, be the largest at any meeting, as wannabe racers use it to test the waters, whilst those wanting to experience the track and blow the cobwebs out of their cars can do so without much fear of panel damage caused by other drivers. It is no longer a low cost entry point.

The structure or progression in racing has been quite clear for the last decade.

Level #1 - Classic Trial

Level #2 - Racing but on road tyres and possibly cars to a road legal standard - Alfa Trofeo, BMW E30, AES/Arrow Wheels - CoD Optional, Hooters Vintage, (even 2K Cup, but maybe that doesn't belong here, even though some have used it as a means to progress to ERC - the Peugeot 205's for example.) Is Japanese Classics still running?

Level #3 - Racing historically correct and with a CoD, full trim etc. HMC/HSC

Level #4 - Race saloons and sports cars, historic race cars etc. FF, FJ, Historic Sports Sedans and Allcomers, Formula Libre, BMW open, CMC, pre 65. Clubmans/sports racing. Some have a CoD, some haven't.

John: Try telling Kenny Smith or Ray Williams they should have retired! The average age for the ERC list when I last ran the series was about 52 years - and dropping slightly as younger ones were coming in.

One of the reasons we opted for the pragmatic relaxation of age criteria (for the car) was firstly, Peugeot 205's for example, Alfas and BMWs are what the next generation drove. You can no longer nip down the road and get spares for a Hillman Hunter, or Riley 1.5 - particularly body panels, so keeping them on track or driving to and from the event isn't so easy.

Only we oldies are going to know what a Daimler SP250 is, so the youngsters aren't going to go out looking for them. They didn't grow up with the cars we did, so their perception of an old car is a young car to us.

[John McKechnie]

Reassessment of some terms after Taupo weekend

Fan
- grid marshalls, flaggies and those who tirelessly support and are the backbone of a voluntary sport.
A chap called Paul who three times came up from Wellington to help drivers with refuelling, air pressures, bleeding brakes and generally driving race cars around the pits to make sure they are good to go.
People who came into the pits and talk about the cars.

Spectators
- they watch and its neat when they wave after a race.

Enthusiast
-someone who has more than 2 race cars sitting in their garage.

Optimist
-class coordinators
race drivers who think they are going to get 2 days in a row of sunshine, and that the air will stay in their tyres for this length of time.

Ray- that is so sad about Classic Trial. For me that word means basic introduction to cars on the track and much better than thrown in the deep end tail of a race feild...but is it a necessary class as a race track is a race track not a creche.
Also we have had endless discussions here about getting old race cars back on the track. It is hit and miss. I bought a stranded Torana XU1 V8, got it running and legal with a COD only because there was a class for it now

[rf84]

Is the fact that there have been clashes of dates between Taupo and HD EVERY weekend this month not a result of there being too many tracks in a small area? Put yourself in a circuit owner's shoes. You have many millions of dollars tied up in a track and it's associated amenities. Are you going to sit back and allow a circuit a few hours up or down the road to hold a meeting and (possibly) make money while your multi million dollar investment lies idle?

[John McKechnie]

Last year and previous years there have been Jan 14, 21 Historic Festivals 2 weeks in a row at HD.
Taupo has had the 21st Jan date and I had drivers wanting to do first week at HD and go to Taupo 2nd weekend.
This year there was no 2 weekend in a row Historic Festival.
Jan 14 was Legends of Bathurst at HD, and HSS ,HMC,HSC were invited to Taupo for their usual Historic F5000 GP on 21 Jan
It would be fair to say that this year was the first time Januarys race events have come to everyones attention..
Not enough cars, groups, themes to go around.
So this weekend is Toyota Racing Series and Premier Classes at HD and HRC Events Ltd is doing Tranzams and other groups at Taupo.
Each track is 3 1/2 hours apart chose your particular interest and go to that one.
As for me I am running 2 Border Collies at Counties Agility as thats where my interest is .

there is no one easy answer to this question, but keep talking here.

And encourage friends to get their cars out, my choice has been to let 4 people drive my cars to build up their enthusiasm and it works.
Its easy to fall out of race mode
Also just helping friends can get you going.

[ERC]

Classic Trial does belong at a meeting and I think TACCOC kicked it off back in the Whenuapai days. Running it at a Classic/Historic race meeting makes a lot of sense as often, these racers do indeed progress to the various race series and as the name suggests, they generally are running classic cars. It is an opportunity to mix with the racers off track, pick their brains as to race preparation and study the way the races work. If they decide they won't progress, but are happy running their prized cars on track, great. There are some neat cars in that group and as it is relatively risk free, why not? They don't belong at an Auckland car Cub meeting.


We no longer have race meetings run by Lotus, BMW, Jaguar, Alfa Romeo, Datsun Z and MG etc., so the only meetings now run at HD & Pukekohe are ACC, HRC and TACCOC, with HD also running its own Festival. The only exceptions are the so called Tier 1 and Aussie V8s.

Again, as in other sports, the lack of volunteers hasn't helped and without the well organised and totally dedicated Motorsport Club providing flag marshals and meeting officials, quite frankly, there wouldn't even be any racing these days - and even there, the youngsters are running the dummy grid - and very well too I might add.

People are generally unwilling to devote their spare time to organisation and officiating these days and trying to co-ordinate a race group, sort handicaps and also race is a very big ask and few can really be bothered to assist and even fewer, make a success of it.

The modern motorsport arena I have no involvement with nor much interest, as it seems to me that only now are they waking up to the fact that without older stuff such as Central Muscle Cars and F5000 propping up the meetings, they just aren't delivering anything of any great interest and in that respect, questions need to be asked as to where and why they have failed.

Ironically, both of those groups also offer great varieties of competing cars (and performances are not equal) and decent sized grids.

The penny hasn't yet dropped.

[John McKechnie]

Ray.....Excellent reason for why this Classic Trials exists and its continuation. As you say, ideal at Classics/ Historics to get neat cars in it.

[Oldfart]

Is this particularly a North Island thing?
Noel has expressed the "too many circuits". I haven't seen a lot of comment re HD vs Pukekohe, but more HD vs Taupo. Hmmm.
The South Island , with a much smaller population has 3, Ruapuna, Timaru and the Teretonga. I know they no longer get the huge crowds at Teretonga, but we don't get the great drivers to the NZ events like days of old, so how much does that affect things. Those 3 are no further apart than HD to Taupo, and I see that Manfield hasn't been thrown in?

Perhaps the "cars are the stars" which most of us on this forum have espoused has back fired in getting spectators through the gate? But to the average spectator, as defined by John above, it's obviously the other way round, otherwise why do they go to the V8 (Oz type) meets where the enthusiast knows they have the same chassis etc etc, but Joe Average still buys into either the name driver thing, or the Ford vs Holden.

Ray, never had an entry fee refunded, except for the Ngawhini hillclimbs.

[ERC]

I have refunded many Rhys! Easier to do than to try and update every official's paperwork in the days before HRC's computerised Entry System. Doing last minute additions for the secretariat, timekeepers, scrutineers, commentator etc., used to be a real mission having sent them out earlier.

Most drivers don't read the ASRs...

Sample extract from way back in 2008:

"Full refunds will be paid to competitors who advise Bill Ritchie in writing (email) before 9am 12/03/2008 that they wish to withdraw from the meeting."

Good point about the Aussie V8's, and Red vs Blue, but that seems to be an historical thing. I'm willing to bet that the Joe Average wouldn't know the difference between a Formula Ford, Formula Vee and Formula Atlantic and what's more, couldn't care less.

That being the case, I suspect that Joe average and his kids take motoring today as a right and treat their cars in the same way they treat any household appliance. To them, a car is to get from A - B.

Just remember that back in 1959 for example, at the UK Motorshow, Triumph announced the Herald, Ford announced the Anglia and BMC announced the Minis. This was BIG news! TV coverage, newspaper coverage, the annual Daily Express Motorshow Guide, a new Observers Book of Automobiles - annually. New cars were BIG news then.

When the E Type Jaguar was launched, again, massive news, so no wonder we teenagers were car mad. Are today's teenagers car mad? Somehow, the magic has gone and even those of us who could name every car on the road by the time we could talk, can't even identify the moderns, which is one of the reasons we are into classics. Character.

This may not be giving any answers, but may partially explain the problem.

[Allan]

To add to the mix "OF", what has become of the plan to build a facility at Tapawera/Kohatu just out of Nelson?

[Oldfart]

To add to the mix "OF", what has become of the plan to build a facility at Tapawera/Kohatu just out of Nelson?

No idea! I was told "once upon a time" that it was an Australian investor. Does that ring bells?

[John McKechnie]

was that the guy building it for himself with a F1 car. Suffered in the earthquake?

[Allan]

A chap by the name of Gary Adcock I believe.

[ERC]

Garry (double 'r') and the latest on Google was October 2017, so still seems to be a goer.

[Oldfart]

was that the guy building it for himself with a F1 car. Suffered in the earthquake?

I thought he was much nearer to Kaikoura than Nelson. From what I have seen he has built the track, and car(s?) very private. The Nelson area one was supposed to be very commercial, including kart tracks, off road, track experiences.... sound familiar? but I can make 2 + 2 = anything I like.

[Peter M]

I like to take my motor home to motorsport events, out of the places I have taken it Taupo motor sport park ( Bruce McLaren) is the only place that charges reallistic affordable prices, I paid $25 a night for a powered site.
At the Lead foot it is $100 unpowered site for the weekend which is very expensive ( this event may well be a once every 3 or 4 year event for me to attend )
I went to the HD 101 in 2016 and paid $100 to camp there with no power, I went back in 2017 and stayed at the Huntly camping ground for $15 for a powered site also used their shower ( saved cleaning mine ) I also went back to Huntly when attending the average Bathurst festival.
My wife and I are are members of the NZ Motor caravan assn,(most owners are ) the majority of motor camps are considerably cheaper than HD or Leadfoot and ofer a lot more facilities. We have stayed at Clubs and recognised parks without using their facilities between $10 and $20 per night for 2 people.
I enjoyed Taupo last weekend and was impressed what they have done for catering for motorhomes.A large number of competitors and spectators use them for accomodation and tow vehicles.
Peter

[Allan]

The "proposed' facility near Nelson is called "Kohatu Park". I had a feeling when it was first suggested it used the name Tapawera which is a small community nearby. It has an incorporated society which is accepting members and a facebook page. The other one mentioned by Oldfart is news to me.

[ERC]

From JT:

Just an update on the live streaming when you get to the site click on the VOLT TV logo and that will take you to the live stream. Do not click on the button that says Go Live or Get Sorted.


This weekends New Zealand Motor Cup meeting is being live streamed and you can watch the whole thing on line from Saturday morning onwards.

To view go to:

https://livestream.com/accounts/13731600/events/8028430

Ho hum. Hardly any spectators Saturday.

Formula Libre - most of the race under Safety car.

GT/Saloons - just 13 cars started and as I watch, already down to 11

[nigel watts]

Hardly any spectators but them no shade at HD and the sun is so bloody hot at the moment that it's hardly surprising.

[Oldfart]

Hardly any spectators but them no shade at HD and the sun is so bloody hot at the moment that it's hardly surprising.

Real enthusiast with good racing and good programmes (not the written ones) always used to cope with that (and any other weather) in the days of Ardmore and early Puke, and every other event you care to name.
Lack of cover is not the reason for lack of crowds IMHO.

[Allan]

I agree with you on that "OF". With the exception of the Aussie V8 meetings I am sure the crowds are getting smaller by the year. But then some of those who go to the V8s are only there to be seen or got free tickets from some sponsor or business.

[ERC]

Caught a bit of the Sunday racing. Just a handful of spectators on the start line banking. From what I could see, virtually no photographers in the usual spots. No spectators at the fence at the exit to the final hairpin.

Can someone list the number of entries for each grid? Libre race I saw was a 4 way tussle between a Juno that retired, then 3 way with Kenny Smith, Tony Quinn and James Watson. Good racing between the three of them and for once, the camera covering some of the other runners, even though JT thought they should just stay on the front battle. At last there were over 20 starters (just).

What is important for TV viewers as opposed to attending spectators, which is where the commentary and a TV presentation differ, is that TV coverage HAS to cover the whole field.

Part of the reason non-petrol head friends consider motorsport totally boring, is the usual TV fixation of the leading car and maybe two others, to the exclusion of the rest of the field. Even the Goodwood Revival and members meeting coverage falls into that trap, and so we never get to see the interesting cars/drivers further down the grid - where there is a decent grid that is.

It doesn't seem to matter who runs/promotes tier 1 meetings, but they are never going to get paying spectators if they can't provide something for them to look at. If I was to travel any distance to a track, I'd rather make the effort go to the annual Manfeild MG meetings where it is a given that there are plenty of cars on track. The annual South Island meetings might also be worth a crack, (did Teretonga once and even in the abysmal weather it was enjoyable), but tier 1?

Oh, and todays NZ Herald sporting section? Zilch.

[Milan Fistonic]

I didn't count the number of actual starters but these are the number of entrants listed in the programme.

Formula Libre - 32
Historic Formula Ford - 21
Pro7 Racing - 18
TRS -13
GTRNZ - 43
Honda Cup - 24
F5000 - 21
Improved Production Car - 15

[John McKechnie]

For me the answer - Bruce302, Ken from LA and I driving through the forests leaving Tokoroa . Team Cambridge Monaro on the back heading for Taupo to a race meeting listening to Innagaddavida - extended version 30 mins-by Iron Butterfly. Road trip, party time -EXCELLENT

[Kiwiboss]

According to Allan Dicks FB page ten thousand people attended Timaru's 50th on the weekend..............must be too much to do up north to attract those sort of numbers...................!

[Bruce302]

I think you are absolutely right on that Dale, there is a lot of places and events for people to spend their discretionary funds, and attention spans are a lot shorter now.

Motorsport is a bit passe for the masses, it no longer holds the danger and adventure it did in the early days. It was a real spectacle.
These days people jump from planes or bridges for kicks. By the same token motorsport is much more attainable for the average guy, in any of its guises, from country dirt tracks (I was at Waiuku dirt track yesterday) to the premium tracks that seem to have an event every weekend over he summer months.

If this is a problem, I think it is one a lot of people enjoy. First world problems, right ?

Bruce.


According to Allan Dicks FB page ten thousand people attended Timaru's 50th on the weekend..............must be too much to do up north to attract those sort of numbers...................!

[John McKechnie]

Yep, if people want a Historic weekend or Festival of Racing ,Dale and I have done something about giving them something special for quite a long time now........If they want to come along and see us.
We all are having the time of our lives because we chose to get off our collective backsides and do something, instead of just talking.
Our world is just Historics.
The Waiuku dirt track works for people because most of us started by sliding in the dirt or gravel.

[khyndart in CA]

This is what brought the crowds in at Baypark Stadium on Saturday, perhaps some ditches can be dug out in the Taupo infield and combine all the grunt from cars and boats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HCmY3zsTZg

I have to admit that I selfishly thoroughly enjoyed myself at Taupo due to the lack of a crowd ! Not having to wait in long lines to park and eat, far away from the drivers, limited viewing with a view of perhaps a corner in expensive grandstands, everyone speaking in foreign accents, taxi drivers that rip you off going the long way, no pies or chips or good beer, no where to take photos without getting tossed out etc. etc.
I found just the opposite at Taupo and I miss it already. I wish everybody could enjoy it much as I did, but I know it needs attendance to pay the bills.

Ken H

[Allan]

Hello Ken. I'm glad you enjoyed your trip to Taupo and you are right about how easy viewing and eating is with smaller crowds. However I do believe that even with full grids and plenty of action the crowd sizes would not increase that much. There is too many other things to do these days as well as the fact that for today's youngsters a car is just a means of transport. I do think that the percentage of petrol heads in the general population has dropped dramatically from what it was when I was younger in the 60s.

[Kiwiboss]

I once read were Allan Dick said “Classic racing is like Masturbation, its only about self-gratification” and upon thinking about it has probably correct as its really only us car owners and historians that luv these vehicles and this type of event. In other words its not main stream auto racing hence the lack of public, its like a classic car show but we get to use them? I’ve been visiting the Monterey Historic’s since 1984 and been some 20 plus times, the only time I ever saw a huge crowd was in 2003 for the 100 years of Ford and 2013 for the 50 years of the Shelby Cobra. I went to both events either side of the 100 years(Jag and Aston were the marques from memory) and I was the only one sitting in the stands, absolutely NO public! When I asked around why this is so officials told me that Historic racing is only about the “Car” and the owner taking it for a competitive drive around the track, these events are not about attracting the public were as here in NZ we think every meeting should have a huge crowd and when it doesn’t we all wonder why……………I believe they probably have the correct philosophy?

[Spgeti]

I agree Dale and if we look at the crowd attendance for the 50th Anniversary of Levels Raceway it is because these guys had a purpose and put on a show that to the punters meant something so the result is good spectator attendance.

You are correct Allan there is just to many other attractions these days to attend and they are all competing for the discretionary dollar.

Time has moved on and motor racing is not to the forefront of the public mind as entertainment.

For us, HMC and HSC is about the quality of the grid and maintaining that quality. This year we have had growth in the numbers of cars on the grid but we still maintain the quality.

The Taupo GP for us was great and we felt that we had given the public a good show.
The promoters of the meeting were very pleased with what we put on.
Getting the public thru the gate is their issue and the feed back I got was they were happy with the attendance but they would alway want more.

[ERC]

Let's not get confused here. The grizzles about small grids and lack lustre racing relates mainly to Tier 1 racing which is televised and does not show the sport in a particularly attractive light. We in the classic/historics side of the sport, that is NOT televised, do not expect crowds of watchers - and we never have.

Allan says it like it is. I remember organising a school motor club visit, to the 1962 British Grand prix at Aintree, rounding up enough friends to hire a coach for the day. I doubt that the average school today would have enough boys (or girls) interested enough to hire a minibus, let alone a 40 seater coach.

Equally, even without sky TV, relying totally on the BBC's Saturday afternoon's sports programme (in black and white), interspersed between the dogmeat racing and various other sports, we had limited coverage of the following:

Circuit racing - saloons, sports cars, non-championship F1 cars (yup, those were the days).
Hillclimbs - including 'Rest and be Thankful' in Scotland and several English hill climbs.
Sporting Car trials (mud-plugging)
Point to point (London Motor Club vs the Army in a range of vehicles from trucks to cars)
The annual Inter area driving tests.
Goodwood Tourist Trophy

We also used to get hourly reports on the radio from the Monte Carlo Rally - which was huge in those days. Hourly reports from the 24 hours of Le Mans too on BBC radio.

What this coverage did was feed the interest for any enthusiast and as Allan correctly points out, as a percentage, there were many more in those days.

Here we are, two days after the Tier 1 racing at Hampton Downs, where at least the Toyota Series is accepted as our premier single seater grid (I judge 23 starters for that grid as acceptable) and the country's most widely read newspaper has had precisely zero coverage of the results.

There is a very good opinion piece about boy racers not being motorsport people from a Herald reporter today, but nothing whatever about the sport.

Whether this is the Sports Editor of the Herald being anti motorsport or the Speedworks people not passing on Press Releases for the print media, I don't know, but despite the social media, interweb and people glued to their cell phones, the Herald is still wall to wall rugby, cricket and dogmeat racing (aka, a 4 page daily list for gamblers), so why no motorsport coverage?

Yes, for us it is all about the cars but a Bathhurst Festival classed by HD as a 'Premier Event' with apartment owners limited to 4 free passes and other guests having to pay, even if it is only granny babysitting, with an abysmal programme and small grids, we have serious problems at a classic level too.

Ironically, there are no restrictions on apartment owners for the Tier 1 meeting at HD so we can only assume that the HD management doesn't see it as a Premier event.

We are never going to get the huge crowds back, so why waste $1,000's on promotion and charge high prices for the tickets? Seems a bit dumb to me. Speedworks as the current promoters of tier 1 may be charging the entrants a small fortune to cover their costs, but the general public are not contributing.

There is nothing whatever happening in NZ to lift the interest levels for the casual spectators and as others have pointed out, there is virtually no shelter from the elements - wet or fine - either.

NZ racing is often far better value for spectators than some overseas meetings, due to the continuous running rather than running to the clock.

Some tracks are brilliant at that - Teretonga for example has drivers out on the warm up lap just a few seconds after the last car has passed the line. Manfeild runs very slickly too. Why doesn't that slickness apply at HD or Pukekohe? Spectators need entertaining and that means as much track action as possible, not staring at empty tarseal.

[John McKechnie]

Great input Ray, a thread like this deserves your experience and keeping to the point

[John McKechnie]

This from Roland Dane- speedcafe post- in relation to whats the answer in his sandpit-

According to Dane, the sport must continue to adapt and change in line with the changing desires of fans, ideally anticipating them in order to safeguard its future.However, he warns against relying on market research, which he suggests could lead the sport down a rabbit hole, and instead believes it should be taking charge of its own destiny
“Yes, we have to listen to fans et cetera, but they often won’t tell you, because they don’t know; they know what they’d like, and they know what they don’t like, but you’ve got to try and pre-empt where the world’s going.

Good interview, well worth the read, and GO the mighty Scotty Mac

[Trevor Sheffield]

The great Sterling Moss predicted correctly. “Sticky tyres have killed the sport of motor racing.”

When Sterling Moss was here in NZ, I once had the privilege and pleasure of a short chat with him and the above comment was delivered in a very forthright manner and it came through loud and clear.

As a of now, cars racing on a circuit might as well be fitted with flanged wheels and run on a single railway track, after being arranged in order of their practice times. LOL Significantly, a google will show that dirt track racing is not in the doldrums. (Differences in respect of the two controlling bodies involved calls for a second topic.)

Once upon a time, if on approaching a corner one dared to move to the outside of the track, as is current practice in order to take the hallowed “racing-line”, opposition confident in their skills and accepting the risk involved would overtake on the inside to gain the required overlap, thus earning the right to the corner. Superior skill in drifting the car would then enable a tighter line and a successful overtaking.

Currently a single attribute involves judging the maximum possible cornering speed while maintaining adhesion on what has become an essential readily defined, orthodox racing line, with overtaking no longer an option. Drivers have less opportunity to demonstrate their skills and spectators are no longer presented with an interesting display and the procession continues.

However the classic scene can still offer the spectacle of a couple of drivers “giving it a go” somewhat sideways to the delight of all involved and the gate takings bare witness.

Along with sticky tyres, modern technology has further removed driver ability from the equation and speed has reached a point whereby unaided human instinct and reaction is no longer able to cope. Mechanised pit stops, remote monitoring from the pit etc, all reduce the need for multiple skills to be demonstrated and importantly on view. Races tend to be decided at the drawing board/computer and dependent on a bank balance. Furthermore the now obligatory safety measures have removed the very essence of a sport with thrills. The spectacle has lost its cutting edge.

Unfortunately and very sadly, the same scenario is affecting the amateur scene whereby costs are far outweighing participants anticipated fun of the game. Many have taken to sailing.

Human endeavour is paramount and remains on show within other sports involving vehicles, e.g., cycle racing, rowing, sailing etc. etc. and these are certainly not in the doldrums. Once again motor sport and the cars being raced must be aligned with normal human activities and with the display of obvious driver skills, so that the sport provides an integrated experience. Spectators when driving home from an event need to feel as having been involved, rather than having simply observed robots riding space rockets.

In all of this let it be clear that in respect of proper motor racing, a true drift involves a car set up in a position whereby it is not running in line with a corner and is angled inwards so that motive power can used as a means of counteracting the centrifugal force involved. Purists and tradition would have it that the front wheels should not be turned to counter the slide, as otherwise some forwards momentum is lost, but this detail is rather subjective. Whatever, sticky tyres have killed what was an art form and pictures are no longer in the gallery.

So much for sticky tyres. Take it or leave it. LOL

[ERC]

Good post Trevor, but it is Sir Stirling Moss, not sterling - though he is passionately British!

I do totally agree that cornering as if on rails has taken away what we know as 'attitude' and makes most modern racing less attractive. Part of the attraction of the Goodwood Revivals is the four wheel drift.

[John McKechnie]

And what about the modern trend started by Paul Radisich of bouncing on the kerbs ?

[Milan Fistonic]

Good post Trevor, but it is Sir Stirling Moss, not sterling - though he is passionately British!

I do totally agree that cornering as if on rails has taken away what we know as 'attitude' and makes most modern racing less attractive. Part of the attraction of the Goodwood Revivals is the four wheel drift.

Is this what you mean about 'attitude'?

50476

[Andrew Metford]

One thing that always grinds my gears these days is after every race, they wait until the last car is back in the pits, then they send the "safety car" out for a lap. In my eyes this is a complete waste of time. They never used to do this and there weren't mass casualties, so why now - what's changed that makes it legitimately necessary? The marshall points have to be close enough that they can see the the next one, so if there is anything left on the track, or oil or whatever, the marshals should call it in. When Mum and Dad used to run the dummy grid at Pukekohe for years, Dad always had a radio so Debby could tell him when to release the cars. So he heard after every race, Debby put a call out to the marshal posts, who all had to call in, in the correct order, that their section was clear and free of debris / oil spills / stray camels et al, and when that was complete out the cars went.

I know some tracks are moving away from marshalls, and having the place totally covered by cctv and digital "flags", so again, they've got the place totally covered on screen, how about looking at the screen then?? They put a safety car out mid race because a washer fell off someone's car and is lying in the middle of the track, so that proves the camera resolution is fine.

I wonder it if's a bit of the old boys club with mates looking after mates and hooking themselves up with a borrowed latest model Lamborrari for a few blat laps under the guise of "track inspection"?? They're usually flogging it, going way too fast to actually be able to spot a stray bolt or anything smaller than a bonnet on the track, so one really does wonder...........

I've never actually worked out how long this takes over the course of a meeting, but I reckon you could get another race in. Like Ray says, lots of looking at empty tarmac and not much racing going on..............

The Festival just gone was the first one I haven't gone to. I used to come back from Perth especially for them!! This time I was home ( for good ), only had to get in the car and down the motorway.......when taking into account the complete lack of shade and seating, the likelihood of either an expensive, poor quality, or a combination of both, program, the final nail in the coffin was the increased ( over previous years ) ticket pricing. Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age, but I need to be able to justify the whole day, time to drive there and back, and expense, and I couldn't do it. Sometimes I think promoters are their own worst enemy, when you look at what they do, how they do it, and what they charge. Simple, really basic things ( like the program amount other things ), and they screw it up. Makes me wonder what's in the pipe they're smoking??

I'm slowly building my car, but lately I'm wondering what for? Entry fees have gone through the roof ( last time I entered a meeting it was $180 for a 2 day at Pukekohe ), you get stung for some BS safety levy, and get exactly what for it that you didn't get before this levy was introduced??? plus everything else costs more these days ( Avgas, tyres, brake pads etc etc ). Makes me wonder if I'm building an expensive public test day car that'll still get seen off by a $5000 Honda Civic with a set of sticky tyres?? My brother doesn't race anymore because the entry fees are getting out of hand, although he's looking at doing a few TACCOC one day meets where they give a discount for entering 2 or 3 meetings ( props to TACCOC for trying something different to spark interest / more entries ).

Can someone explain why a 2 day meeting entry fee now is around $300-350? When 'back in the day' ( 2003 I think it was ) it was $150 -180? Where has the basically doubling of costs come from? Oh they put up some garages so you don't have to sink in the mud. Yeah but they charge ( a fair bit ) extra for a garage. Can't see what else has changed to justify doubling the cost. The venue hasn't changed, the track hasn't changed, the facilities have barely improved ( still no power anywhere unless you pay extra for a garage, and no power at all at Puke last time I was there last year )....what am I missing?

[Oldfart]

Just wait for it. Someone will come back and say NZ entries are cheaper than overseas, I have heard it before. You know what, like for like they are not any more. Competition licence in the UK is cheaper, entry fees are cheaper than has been quoted, no extra levies I have seen. Hmmm. So that's not the answer.
What was the question again? Perhaps the answer is a bit like Hitch hikers guide, the answer is 42

[Allan]

Thank you all for your input. Some very good points raised by all especially Ray, Trevor and Andrew. I have to agree with most of what has been said so far. One of my favourite beefs is the way over the years that our sport has morphed into what it is today and downunder the worst example of this is the V8 supercars (or whatever they call them now). I have never been a fan of controlled components such as is used in many classes today as in my opinion it takes away the "we can build it just as good or better" attitude that many of us have.
Twenty years ago the Aussie V8s were factory produced road cars converted into race cars and everyone involved lived with the inherent problems that this created such as skinny tyres and bad brakes, but the knowledgeable punters were happy knowing that the race cars they were watching weren't that far removed from the car they drove to the track in. Not any more! The current batch bear no resemblance to the road car they purport to be. They now all use the same transmission, brakes, wheels, tyres etc with the engine and outer panels being about all there is to identify them, and the guards are now composite so if there is a bit of "rubbing" the tyres aren't destroyed. And the NZ version is just as bad. And to add insult to injury the Aussies are are now talking about paddle shifting. They may as well sit in a tower with a remote controller and race them.
Oh that we could go back to the good old days when we could take a crashed road car into a dirt floored shed in outback Waikickamoocow and using Kiwi ingenuity turn it into a competitive race car. We used to do it with rally cars back in the 70s and 80s and look how some of them turned out.
I have one final plea.......Don't get me started on Formula one.

[khyndart in CA]

Allan,
You have spoilt my day as I was going to do a story about going to the 1998 Canadian Formula One Grand Prix but after reading this I will put my material back in the shoe box.
50477
Montreal F 1. 1998. By the way that is a real blue F 1 car in the background, not part of the Warsteiner Beer wall poster !



Interesting comments on this thread about things I was not aware of.
( Ken H )

[Oldfart]

Well said Allan.

[Allan]

Sorry Ken. Your input is always welcome.

[John McKechnie]

Thats the best use of a F1 car ...a wall decoration in a corner

[khyndart in CA]

Hey don't knock Formula One because if I remember correctly, that when those drivers showed up here in NZ (When the winner won one thousand pounds !) then so did the crowds to see them.
(Dream on Hyndman.. )

[Allan]

I am referring to today's F1. I well remember the great days when you would have been involved Ken. And I also remember fondly the great drivers who came out to race in NZ, which is where I got my interest in the sport. I also remember having to sleep under the hedge next to the short straight which ran up to Railway corner so as to get a decent spot because of those crowds.

[Trevor Sheffield]

I am referring to today's F1. I well remember the great days when you would have been involved Ken. And I also remember fondly the great drivers who came out to race in NZ, which is where I got my interest in the sport. I also remember having to sleep under the hedge next to the short straight which ran up to Railway corner so as to get a decent spot because of those crowds.

Allan, you are on the front of the grid.

You further amplify what I pointed out. Currently motor racing no longer proves interesting for both spectators and prospective participants. The basics have become lost and the competition no longer belongs within the real world. "Robots on rockets". It has transcended beyond being a sport. (Coincidentally, the circus is no longer a drawcard.)

[ERC]

It has transcended beyond being a sport. (Coincidentally, the circus is no longer a drawcard.)
Just like soccer and most professional sports. Money, money, money.

Going to a UK second or even first division soccer match in the 1950's, when a crowd of 40,000+ wasn't unusual, it was a pocket money admission fee.

We have all read books such as Alf Francis, Racing Mechanic and others from the mid 1950's to mid 1960's, or even more recent books such as Bob McMurray's, where the Bernie Ecclestone professionalism and massive sponsorship, not to mention huge numbers of personnel and their corporate entertaining, changed F1 for ever.

As someone stated earlier, Bathurst was an annual must see event, even for those of us who had never even heard of it until 1982 so in an effort to bring in parity and control costs (sic), top level motorsport has lost its way so I totally agree with Trevor.

The question asked by Allan is "What's the answer?" I'd add the rider - "If there is one".

Andrew asks WHY costs have sky rocketed and that is a good point.

I have just had a look back at the accounts for the 2009 opening classic weekend at Hampton Downs November 2009. Saturday was Sprints and Classic trial with Club Lotus, and we, (ERC/Monza) ran a race meeting on the Sunday.

I could list all the costs and income for the weekend, but I see very little point, other than MSNZ's coffers benefitted by $5,256 - and since then, MSNZ levies have doubled - as have race licence fees. Why?

The entry fee for racers then was $135 and for Classic Trial and sprints, $110.

Rhys, we paid back a total of $3,500 in returned entry fees (including 1 of $90 and one of $75 as a percentage as they didn't inform us in time).

We paid to have the ERC and BMW E30 races filmed at a cost of $5500 (for us, the same for BMW) and a set of DVD's produced for those who wanted to buy them, at an additional cost.

We had to pay out for rubbish disposal, radio hire, fire extinguisher hire, timekeepers, stewards expenses, programme and ticket printing, breakdown crew, St Johns, secretarial costs, FIV fuel, and voluntarily water for the marshals plus a BBQ at the end of the meeting and a voluntary donation to what would become the Motorsport Club and a couple of helpers.

We made a very small profit and as the first full race meeting at HD, we took about $2,000 on the gate at $20 a weekend ticket. Do the math...

Maybe someone would like to come up with today's charges at HD - and I do hope that one day, someone will work out why the Elf and Safety levy is $25 per DRIVER and what that covers and why per driver?

[Allan]

You are quite right Ray when you ask "is there an answer?"
I think one of the problems relates to the way technology has evolved in motor racing since the halcyon days of the 60s and 70s when if you asked your driver what the problem was he was complaining about we would get an answer that came from his experience and the feeling in the seat of his pants. No computers and telemetry in those days, just good old fashioned knowledge and experience on the part of both the driver (most of them) and the crew.
Take a look at the Formula 5000s that are being preserved and raced today. Absolute beasts that required drivers with real steelys to muscle them round circuits like Pukekohe in the old days at the speeds they did with races that lasted in some cases an hour or more which gives me a great respect for those who race them today, valued as they are at a small fortune. One of the great aspects of these cars was their simplicity, which made them easy to maintain and repair. They went quick and made lots of noise which the crowds loved. Those were the days when the best place to see them was at the circuit and not on TV.
The one series I watch is the Aussie V8s. Why? Because they are so close that at some circuits one second covers the top 20 after qualifying and that Kiwis are doing well. But I am not a fan of the silhouette racers that they have become over the last few years and that they are continuing to develop into.
As a throw away line I'd like to know what was wrong with the old group A of the 80s and early 90s?

[Trevor Sheffield]

Just like soccer and most professional sports. Money, money, money.

I could list all the costs and income for the weekend, but I see very little point, other than MSNZ's coffers benefitted by $5,256 - and since then, MSNZ levies have doubled - as have race licence fees. Why?

The entry fee for racers then was $135 and for Classic Trial and sprints, $110.

Rhys, we paid back a total of $3,500 in returned entry fees (including 1 of $90 and one of $75 as a percentage as they didn't inform us in time).

We paid to have the ERC race filmed at a cost of $5500 and a set of DVD's produced for those who wanted to buy them at an additional cost.

We had to pay out for rubbish disposal, radio hire, fire extinguisher hire, timekeepers, stewards expenses, programme and ticket printing, breakdown crew, St Johns, secretarial costs, FIV fuel, and voluntarily water for the marshals plus a BBQ at the end of the meeting and a voluntary donation to what would become the Motorsport Club and a couple of helpers.

We made a very small profit and as the first full race meeting at HD, we took about $2,000 on the gate at $20 a weekend ticket. Do the math...

Maybe someone would like to come up with today's charges at HD - and I do hope that one day, someone will work out why the Elf and Safety levy is $25 per DRIVER and what that covers and why per driver?

ERC, the figures you have quoted are beyond reason, but do not surprise me.

As a competitor and committee member (Hon Sec) of the Northern Sports Car Club, I observed the commencement of the erosion of motor sport with the advent of the first NZ Grand Prix. The anticipated profit was obvious and bureaucracy became established drawn from outside of true motor sport.

Simultaneously, the opportunity to gain positions of power became obvious within ANZCC (Now MSNZ) thus enabling politics to enter the scene, with the key being the monopoly established via the license to Federation Internationale de L’Automobile (“FIA”). And the rest is history.

Speedway, even at this time, was and always had been professional, but apparently did not suffer the same fait. With the money involved in open view there was no hiding of facts and enthusiasts remained at the helm. Check the history of Western Springs Speedway, once very well operated by George C. Smith.

[Andrew Metford]

Thats the best use of a F1 car ...a wall decoration in a corner

Where's the "like" button when you need it?? Quote of the Day goes to Mr McKechnie, thanks for making me laugh

[Andrew Metford]

The question asked by Allan is "What's the answer?" I'd add the rider - "If there is one".

Yes there is an answer, but I don't believe we'll ever see it as there are 1: too many people in high places with conflicting interests; 2: too many in the PC / elf and safety brigade that don't want to accept responsibility for anything, or blame anyone else, so they legislate every single thing so that no one can get hurt or anything else, thereby removing all personality, and the chance to be an individual like the old sports sedans / all comers / etc days, from the sport, and so we end up with Sing Song utes and Toyota 86's at "level 1" meetings. I hate to say it, but the writing has been on the wall for quite a while, and it's not being cleaned up, and doesn't ever look like it will.

TACCOC, HRC, and others have been to the AGM in Wellington several times trying to get well thought-out, common sense changes made to improve things, but get shot down in flames every time, so what's that telling you?

I didn't write what I really wanted to here, because I don't want the website to attract undue legal attention if someone had got their knickers in a twist, but I'm sure you've all read the news articles and the other forum about the wheels falling off, and can read between the lines....

[ERC]

Thats the best use of a F1 car ...a wall decoration in a corner

Here you are John - once driven by a Kiwi and yet another treasure that is no longer at Donington, but last I heard, owned by Kiwi Roger Wills. Not sure of the date I took it (colour slide) so it resides in the undated folder at the moment.

50506

[Trevor Sheffield]

Yes there is an answer, but I don't believe we'll ever see it as there are 1: too many people in high places with conflicting interests;

Andrew, as I explained.

"Simultaneously, the opportunity to gain positions of power became obvious within ANZCC (Now MSNZ) thus enabling politics to enter the scene, with the key being the monopoly established via the license to Federation Internationale de L’Automobile (“FIA”). And the rest is history."

As a result a very cunning undemocratic MSNZ constitution was established with the outcomes you point out. In another forum, some time ago, I pointed out how this could be broken but was ignored.

At the time I also pointed that everyone was pissing into the wind and it would appear that bladders remain full. LOL

[Andrew Metford]

Andrew, as I explained.

"Simultaneously, the opportunity to gain positions of power became obvious within ANZCC (Now MSNZ) thus enabling politics to enter the scene, with the key being the monopoly established via the license to Federation Internationale de L’Automobile (“FIA”). And the rest is history."

As a result a very cunning undemocratic MSNZ constitution was established with the outcomes you point out. In another forum, some time ago, I pointed out how this could be broken but was ignored.

Got a link please? Must have missed that one.

[ERC]

Used to be a very lively thread, but Ten Tenths were worried about mud slinging and legal action and since they clamped down, there is no longer any robust discussion. We used to get a lot of insider information from some very well connected people...

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132827

I'm too not sure that robust discussion of some of the issues belongs on this message-board either, but what is the best board? Yes Andrew, I remember submitting feedback and I was told it was a load of crap - and the recipient couldn't even be bothered to read it all the way through.

Unfortunately, there are some (in power) with a bias against certain grids and groups (and individuals) because their philosophies are not totally aligned, despite the fact that they get good support from drivers and dare I say it? Spectators too.

The sayings 'cutting your nose to spite your face' and 'shooting the messengers rather than listening to the messages' seems to be a regular problem. Here, I have to give due credit to Chris Watson for always being prepared to listen and having a less tunnel-visioned view than most. Not perfect and not always right, but I believe his positive influence on the sport has been grossly under estimated.

[Trevor Sheffield]

MSNZ constitution dictates that each and every member club, (N.B. no matter the actual number of members) has the right to one vote at the AGM, where anything of real importance becomes decided. As a result individual members i.e. those who pay, are precluded from influencing decisions and political influence holds sway. What is more some clubs/members are not directly aligned with motor racing as such.

Over to you young guys and the best of luck. LOL

PS. Just turned up my last comment from the forum referred to by ERC :-

"FAQ:- A political situation is involved whereby those who currently hold power, as a collective, will never risk losing their individual authority as a result of an amendment to the current undemocratic aspects of the constitution."

[Allan]

But then hasn't motorsport always been a little like this. I remember being a scrutineer for the ACC for their club and minor national meetings, because I was interested in putting something into the sport and because I got free entry to the meetings, but when the big meetings ie GP came along it was someones mates who got those jobs.

[ERC]

Car Clubs are (MSNZ) levied according to their members, so a large club such as MGCC paid a massive amount in levies and had many racers, yet only got the same vote as a twenty member club with no active racers, which could vote on racing issues.

MGCC Auckland, with over 400 members, realised a couple of years ago the unfairness of this arrangement, democratically as well as financially, and pulled out of MSNZ affiliation. The active racers then transferred their membership to MG Motorsport, which is affiliated, with levies then paid only on racers - which reminds me, I need to cancel my MG Motorsport membership and revert to MGCC.

Members also pay a levy to MSNZ for each club to which they belong, so many have been paying two or three or more levies.

In terms of governance, nothing has changed and until the clubs get a vote for every 20 members, or similar, nothing will change - and that isn't going to happen, as turkeys don't vote for Christmas...

There have been rumblings of an outlaw association for years but sadly, it has never come to anything, though it has been close at times.

[Trevor Sheffield]

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Those who pay, i.e. those who have actually recorded genuine interest in the business should control the functions of MSNZ, as is the situation in respect of all registered companies.

Associated clubs should be considered as each holding a bloc of shares in accordance with the number of members holding a competition license, i.e those with money in the game. At the AGM the number of shares held and available to club delegates should decide the level of votes recorded by each club.

Each club at its own AGM could and would instruct its delegate in respect of policy. As a result individual participants in motor sport could and would control their destiny.

There was a loophole which could have been exploited prior to the current constitution being adopted, but the opportunity was missed and the door cunningly closed. Too late he cried as he waved his wooden leg, give the cat the canary. LOL

[rf84]

Some clubs are also at fault for not keeping members informed about MNZ AGCM. Our local car club has never in my 45 years experience either published a list of remits that are on the agenda at AGCM nor reported back to it's members on the procedings of the AGCM. This has resulted in myself and others feeling totally powerless and unable to have any meaningful influence over what happens at a national level. Attempts to get the information out of the Club delegate prior to the AGCM have only elicited answers which typically go "it's pointless having members having input on remits because we don't even know ourselves how we are going to vote until we get to the meeting and listen to the debates". The end result is frustration and the impression that delegates go to AGCM for a free trip, free accommodation, a big piss up and to end up toeing the MNZ line. A bit like Parliament really.

[rf84]

NZ Stock Car Teams champs in Palmerston North last night. Stadium holds 20,000 and it was PACKED-standing room only even though grandstand tickets were $65 (and they sold out in less than a month!) and general admission was $45. The vast majority of spectators/drivers/pit crews were under 50 years old, many in their 20's and 30's.
That is part of the reason why our traditional circuit meetings are suffering from a lack of entries and spectators. They are supported (or not) by an older (and ageing) population and simply don't appeal to the younger generation.

[John McKechnie]

So, following your reasoning ,the answer is for circuit saloons is to remove the glass, weld up the doors and entertain the huge crowds as Street Stocks?

[rf84]

Hopefully you made that suggestion with "tongue in cheek"?
No. Unfortunately it is not that easy John. Look at the average age of spectators and competitors at circuit meetings, especially historic/classic racing. How many or what percentage are/is under say 50 years old? Like it or not those of us who follow this type of racing are in the older demographic. We enjoy our branch of motorsport but the younger generations as a general rule do not share our passion for historic/classic racing. They have alternatives available to them. If we measure the "success" of the various branches of motorsport by the numbers attending meetings then the alternative forms are very successful. 20,000 on one night at a speedway meeting (and probably a similar number on the Saturday night) I would suggest would far surpass the numbers at all the circuit meetings combined (including the upcoming NZGP) this season.

[John McKechnie]

No tongue in cheek here as I understand this is a serious topic, and as such I threw this out here for discussion.
.After all, my Monaro, when built by Spinner , was to have 2 years on the circuit then be a Speedway car....as in, remove glass, weld up doors

[ERC]

rf4 has it really. It is now a generational thing - but only up to a point.

I know I sound like an LP record stuck in a groove, but no one in their right mind is going to be attracted to races with ten cars scattered around a track - where only part of it is visible from whatever vantage point you choose. We have to accept that speedway and stock car racing around a quarter mile oval with ten cars on a grid can still be exciting when you can see all cars all of the time.

I know that a bit of biff and bash adds to the excitement at stockcars, and dramatic crashes are often part of speedway, but they also have tail out motoring - cars have attitude. I remember so well my first ever speedway meeting at Western Springs and I was hooked. It looked exciting and boy, it was exciting.

As mentioned earlier, sticky tyres, cars driving as if on rails, small grids, unacceptable delays, cars out of sight for at least half the lap or so far away that you may as well not be there, terribly restricted spectator viewing spots, poor TV coverage - concentrating far too much on just two or three cars, so much red tape and often, over inflated prices of admission, lack of shelter - its not exactly a surprise that we have a few issues getting people in, is it?

Promoters need to front up and say for each meeting "This is for spectators" or "This is for drivers and Spectators" or "This is for Drivers" and structure them accordingly, because at the moment, there are some meetings supposedly aimed at spectators and drivers and quite frankly, they seem to be failing miserably on both counts.

[Allan]

Well said Ray. I also enjoy a night at the speedway except that I go to Baypark which has excellent seating and facilities. I do believe that some forms of motorsport have become more for the participants than spectators. In recent years I have noticed that Targa has moved into this category, where as a few years ago there were good numbers of spectators at easy to get to intersections, last year with one exception (an intersection very near Masterton) we were lucky to find ten people at the spots we visited. To go back further into the 70s I remember the numbers that went out to Maramarua to watch the International at night. Every tree had a petrolhead behind it.

[Kiwiboss]

Promoters need to front up and say for each meeting "This is for spectators" or "This is for drivers and Spectators" or "This is for Drivers" and structure them accordingly, because at the moment, there are some meetings supposedly aimed at spectators and drivers and quite frankly, they seem to be failing miserably on both counts.

That's about the best statement I've heard you come up with Ray, my understanding is that generally Historic and Classic racing is for the vehicle owner to go out and enjoy his(or her) car and drive at a pace they are comfortable with having some fun, like a Sunday game of golf! because after all there's nothing left to prove racing an old car. I have mentioned my Monterey experiences in the past, some years they have good size spectators other years none, but the event still carrys on regardless and the racer attendance is always the same. How do they make $$$ and run it, well the racer always pays that's how.

Another interesting take and I mentioned this over on a FB page, both Timaru and Scope had huge crowds(so I'm told) they had almost the very same classes that raced at Quinn's Festival(2 weeks prior to Timaru) and the Taupo GP were no one bothered to turned up, is it a North South thing? is it because there's less to do down south and too much to do up north? after all the amount of events, concerts, etc on up here is mind boggling.

[Trevor Sheffield]

rf4 has it really. It is now a generational thing - but only up to a point.



--- but they also have tail out motoring - cars have attitude. I remember so well my first ever speedway meeting at Western Springs and I was hooked. It looked exciting and boy, it was exciting.

As mentioned earlier, sticky tyres, cars driving as if on rails, small grids, unacceptable delays, cars out of sight for at least half the lap or so far away that you may as well not be there, terribly restricted spectator viewing spots, poor TV coverage - concentrating far too much on just two or three cars, so much red tape and often, over inflated prices of admission, lack of shelter - its not exactly a surprise that we have a few issues getting people in, is it?

And, the attitude, management and structure of the controlling bodies involved. N.B. Speedway / Motor sport.

[Michael Clark]

I was at Skope and thought the crowds were very good but some locals reckoned they were down on past years. I believe tickets were $50.

As ever there was a fair degree of variety - 5000s, Muscle Cars, Sports, Libre, and Saloons etc. Pretty much something for everyone. The South Island circuits seem to have a loyal fan base.

[khyndart in CA]

A beautiful day in a city of over a million and a great Jaguar display and look at the number of folk in this photo.
Has NZ lost interest in fine automobiles and racing ?
I was stunned when I saw this !
50913
Jaguar Viaduct Day in Auckland. 2017

(Ken H )

[ERC]

The day clashed with another couple of events Ken and wasn't advertised on here or many other places. Car parking in the city is expensive and restrictive and we rarely bother go into the City.

The monthly Caffeine & Classics (free) car show catering for Classics, Hot Rods and bikes, has 700 cars on a bad day and I expect will top 1200 this month, yet is only ten minutes away from the viaduct. The date unfortunately clashes with a classic race meeting at Pukekohe... I'll probably be at Pukekohe for a while Saturday, but C & C Sunday (before sorting out a BBQ).

[Alan Hyndman]

Here's an article on last weekends attendance and possible future of the NZ GP at Manfeild, with the opportunity to comment at the bottom of it:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/101337941/no-guarantee-new-zealand-grand-prix-will-return-to-feilding

That "Alan The Driver" guy has some good points! :D

[Kiwiboss]

I was at Skope and thought the crowds were very good but some locals reckoned they were down on past years. I believe tickets were $50

And yet Quinn charges the same $50 for his Festival 3 weeks prior with Muscle cars, Aussie Legends, etc and next to know one turns up! and yet Hampton is between Auckland and Hamilton were the most population is and probably the most wealthy people live...........its that same old story, the wealthy are the meanest....? the real rich people live on the mainland and luv motorsport by the looks?

[Oldfart]

The most wealthy don't seem to be interested in Motorsport, that's not the target audience IMHO.
Then again to live in Auckland you probably have such a big mortgage that you don't have a lot left over after the boat(s), flash cars, dining out twice a week, and owning all sorts of other toys.
I was interested to read the last few sentences in that article from stuff post #98

[rf84]

Agree with Rhys. Not sure if it comes down to money alone. Look at the initial Festival at HD (Bruce McLaren). There were good crowds. The media were hyping it up for weeks or even months prior to the event. On the Friday morning immediately before the event, breakfast TV broadcast live from HD. There was an air of excitement not seen for some years. As time has gone by the numbers have declined.
Go way back to the NZGP days at Ardmore. The biggest crowds ever seen at NZ motor sport events were in attendance (60,000+). Bear in mind that the amount of discretionary spending money of most people was considerably lower and that travel was much more difficult than it is today. Yet large numbers of people travelled from the provinces to the GP even though it could require a tedious two day (or more) journey each way.
Last weekend the GP at Manfeild reportedly had an attendance of 8,500. Of those, 5,000 were there on free tickets given to Palmerston North residents! I believe 60,000 were entitled to these free tickets. There is something DRASTICALLY wrong when you literally cannot give tickets away to people who have to travel a mere 15kms to watch our premier motor race meeting!

[Oldfart]

Noel, it might be the NZGP but I really don't think that makes it, be default, the premier meeting. I stopped going when the cars lost their appeal to me. The TRS cars are (in my opinion) little more interesting than Formula Fords. Even the small grid Formula Holdens were a big step above these, and for me, what is now promoted as a stepping stone event for aspiring drivers doesn't justify retaining the title of a Grand Prix. If I lived in the "free ticket zone" for Manfeild, I doubt that I would have taken up the offer!

[ERC]

Just caught some of the Manfeild meeting on TV this afternoon.

NZ V8 Utes (not exactly drool fodder) - 17 vehicles
NZ BNT V8's - 11 or 12 cars (not exactly drool fodder either)

Then Taupo TRS - just 12 cars...

If they can't even come up with half a grid for the support races, or a third of a full grid for the TRS race, then televising these abject failures just makes matters worse. Have they learned nothing from the last decade? I can't sing, so the very last thing I'd do is prove it to everyone and his dog, by taking part in a televised Kareoke session.

Where is the glamour? Where are the cars we'd love to own? Where is the famed Kiwi engineering ingenuity?

My challenge to them (Speedworks) and even Tony Quinn's team is quite simple "What exactly have you done to make the meetings more attractive to petrol-heads and also to casual spectators?"

I'm with Oldfart. Free tickets or not, I wouldn't bother and I certainly wouldn't travel and pay for expensive accommodation.

I just hope that Speedworks (who are no doubt making money out of this at every meeting) can sleep easily in their beds at night, as I'd be far too embarrassed to be associated with it.

[rf84]

Admittedly there are some small fields these days. But maybe we also look back through "rose tinted glasses" sometimes. Seem to remember looking at an entry list for Manfeild at the height of the F5000 days and there were 18 entries.
Solo speedway bikes provide some scintillating racing with just 4 bikes per race and rallycross with maybe 6 cars per race.

[ERC]

True enough, rf84 as I grew up with Mallory Park having a grid limit of just 14 cars, but on a 1.35 mile track (about the same as the Taupo club track), you saw the cars pass by very often, and the hairpin was a wonderful viewing spot, just a metre or two from the track edge, but with anything up to and including 1.5 litre Formula 1 cars, Ferrari GTO's, McLaren Elvas, Lola T70s, Ford GT40's and E Type Jaguars, not to mention the F5000's and Super Saloons post 1970, it was still a great viewing experience and before getting my own transport at 18, something to really look forward to, especially Bank Holiday meetings.

[rf84]

You raise a good point about track length Ray. Manfeild (in it's original form) is a pretty good spectator circuit. Then they extended it to bring it "up to international standards" to try and attract teams to test there and to secure international motor bike meetings. Arguably it was an abject failure in all respects-it is very boring to drive, the spectators could almost go get a hot dog and be back in the stand without missing a lap and the internationals never turned up. HD and Taupo have gone down the same route without seemingly adding anything to their appeal (to spectators at least).

[Allan]

It would appear that New Zealand is not alone with this problem. I have just returned from the Hi-tec Oils 6 hour production car race at Mount Panorama where my mate and I had a major problem with the crowd.......we couldn't find it. At the top of the mountain it was like attending a minor club meeting. There was literally no one there. Good meeting spoiled by safety car interventions (not the organizers fault) with interesting support races.

[Oldfart]

Allan, I suspect a 6 hour production race is never going to draw crowds as they used to, even the B&H events were sparse compared to others.
I suspect it has something to do with lack of activity, and being able to see lots.
World rally Cross is huge over here. Quick fire, all action, and the next heat is ready to go before the last is finished. What you see (rarely) on NZ TV is not representative as there are other classes too which fill gaps. As the cars are going off track a good percentage of the crowd is head down on their phones, and what they are doing is watching replays and checking times and points. It's a changed world.
Motorbike Speedway is also crowded out, the same thing, 4 laps, all go, next class going in no time, as is NZ speedway in most forms.
I suspect we old fogies haven't caught up with what the other generations want.

[Allan]

My point is not the small crowd, it's no crowd. This is race day at Mcphillamy park.

52827

[ERC]

Oldfart is correct when it comes to all action Speedway and Rallycross, but let's not overlook that Goodwood Revival is a sell out months in advance, yet even if you are there for all three days, you only ever see each race group twice.

If you are only doing the Saturday or the Sunday, then you only see half the competitors - and there is a phenomenal amount of wasted time. Not so bad if it is warm (which it might be) or dry, (which it might be). Not so much fun if wet, (which it probably will be). Gates open at 7:30am, activities start no earlier than 9am, and some activities may go on until after 8pm - which is a very long day indeed when the weather is cold or wet - or both.

The saving grace for Goodwood is that there are literally 100's of stalls and food outlets, not to mention a pre 1966 car park or two of considerable interest - and you can walk right around the outside of the circuit for a decent close up view of every corner. You are not penned into a tiny fraction of the track with cars out of sight more than they are visible, or so far away that there is no connection with them.

What they do have is an amazing variety of interesting cars on track (as well as off) and that is the real attraction (for me anyway). At least if you attend, you do see all those fantastic cars that the TV coverage totally ignores and an old style track, where there is no intrusive wire fencing spoiling the view. With NZ's TV coverage of identical Sing Song utes, Toyota single seaters, Toyota 86's etc., you are not missing anything at all by watching on TV - in fact, with far too many tiny grids, you might as well watch it on TV, otherwise trackside attendance can be a chore, not an excitement.

Yes, I am well aware that we get the occasional freak accident, where cars such as Dean Fulford's Porsche so nearly landed in the crowd on the front straight at Pukekohe (shades of 1955 Le Mans sent shudders down my spine at the time) and no doubt there are others, but ironically, Speedway's regular accidents are part of the attraction of speedway, but you go there for action, not a range of interesting cars - and I don't even take the camera...

[bill hollingsworth]

Track length is critical for spectator appeal. Bigger is not better. Calder was ruined when they lengthened it and the long circuit at Winton is a shocker, providing none of the racing action of the short circuit. Also the softness and grip of tyres has reduced spectator appeal. gone are the days of tyre smoke and squealing which is why drifting crowds eclipse the circuit racing crowds. One big plus for Goodwood is the four wheel drifting due to skinny hard tyres.

[ERC]

I'm not sure whether or not anyone else has noticed, but even in our classic arena, many grids have started to shrink and there are quite a few well known cars currently for sale on TradeMe. Membership numbers may still appear to be healthy, but from Classic Trial through to the bigger engine formulae, numbers are no longer increasing on track.

I suspect the realities of the increased costs are kicking in, not to mention older drivers hanging up their helmets. Increased costs of race licences, clothing, safety items, entry fees (health and safety levies, track hire, MSNZ race levies etc.). Sure, there are always new cars being built, but we are rarely seeing overflowing grids or even grids more than half full. That concerns me, even though I have no vested interest.

[Allan]

Your expressed concern Ray, is one that many of us share. To add to the points you make is the value of some of these vehicles and the increasing cost of repairing even minor damage, which I am sure keeps many under cover in there sheds.

[bill hollingsworth]

"Racing" for historic cars presents many issues, damage but one of them. What attracts me to historic racing is the variety of cars. The actual racing can easily be a double edged sword where if you want to win particular cars start to predominate reducing variety. Goodwood is a great example where they want a true representation of racing in the past and nobble the quicker cars as was the case with the Camaros that this year had to run factory cast headers. Also in the quest to win the cars begin to lose their historical character both in appearance with umpteen degrees of negative camber at the front and grippy tyres and trick shock absorbers that reduce the interesting cornering angles of the past. The only exciting real historic racing I have seen has been has been on very short tracks, the longer tracks turn races into processions. Race meetings should be car shows with a theme or themes to attract particular car clubs.

[rf84]

Nonsensical rules are discouraging competitors. Our local club ran a Standing 1/4 Mile Sprint last weekend. They take advantage of the MNZ rule that a person can do two events before having to join an affiliated Club to try and encourage people into the sport. A prospective new member turned up in a Fraser fitted with six point "Sabelt" seat belts which, unfortunately, were more than ten years old. He was not allowed to compete. Being an open car, this car spends a large percentage of its time in a darkened garage so its heavy duty material seat belts are not subjected to a lot of damaging sun's rays. Another competitor could enter the same event in a fifty year old car fitted with only lap and diagonal belts of far inferior material that had been subjected to the sun's rays every day for the last fifty years and that would be allowed to compete!
When the sport is administered by people who demonstrate such a total lack of common sense it is little wonder that it is in decline.

[bill hollingsworth]

Has a seat belt ever failed in the recorded history of mankind? No such rules apply to road cars which have those skinny loose sash belts.

[ERC]

Couldn't agree more with both the above posts. A 3", boxed, full harness belt, unused, but more than a few years old is deemed scrap, but an ancient, thin, skinny 2" belt is OK?

Having retired myself and the Marcos, with a spaceframe chassis, fibreglass body, that was totally restored and strengthened in 1994, the tubed, threaded plated seat belt mounts just behind the seat back for the shoulder straps, neck width apart specifically for harness belts, with no facility for a lap and diagonal reel, mean that because I don't have a race licence any more and no authority card, I can't use the car on the road, as there is no exemption for harness belts on the road for a car with a roof... A Fraser or similar Lotus Seven lookalike can get an exemption.

Quite where MSNZ/NZTA/LVVTA come from in terms of safety equipment defies all common sense. Don't get me started again on the 40mm roll cage tubing farce either... That is still a very, very sore point. I have a cage that is LVVTA approved and on the LVVTA plate, but not MSNZ approved, even though it was built to their design and their rules changed after giving permission to go ahead and paint.

You can use harness belts in road cars in many other countries but not NZ. Why?

[928]

you can use harness belts in nz, they must have an EU approval. Schroth do a set, with the correct numbers and approval, for a range of road cars.

[rf84]

You raise another good point re roll bars Ray. We had an (ostensibly standard) Subaru competing locally that was a full SIX seconds faster up a hillclimb than a Porsche GT3. The Subaru had no roll cage and a standard lap and diagonal seat belt. If the Subaru had been fitted with a roll cage it would have had to be homologated with MNZ. This costs in excess of $500 for the paper work alone let alone the cost of the roll cage. What is preferable-having a car with a roll cage that is not homologated or having a car with no roll cage at all?
Three years ago I imported an aluminium fuel cell from the USA. I cannot use it now because as of January 2016 fabricated fuel cells have to have paper work to prove what materials and what welding filler rods were used in it's construction. It then has to pass a pressure test. Yet someone can have an old car whose tank is possibly affected by rust and that's OK?
All more reasons to question the competence of some officials.

[ERC]

As for cages, the engineering test required for a free form cage (ie not strictly to one of MSNZ's plans) is so extreme, that a similar MSNZ approved cage would fail it...

MSNZ seems to think that a little used steel shelled road car, needs the same sort of cage as for a full race, fibreglass skinned race car.

They also ignore anything other than the cage itself, totally ignoring any existing bodyshell strength, so you'd need the same cage in a 1500cc or 2 litre normally aspirated road car. as an armour plated Sherman tank. As with many of these rules, it is down to personal safety, that wouldn't affect anyone other than the driver in a serious crash.

MSNZ has a mission statement that they seem unable to abide by, which is to encourage participation.

Even overseas, things are not as smooth as they used to be either, as apparently, they now struggle to get a grid of pre war historic race cars to Monaco. High costs and minimal track time don't help.

The one area where NZ race organisers score highly (well, most of them) is the determination to cram as many races in the day as possible, but if drivers are being forced out, for whatever reason, rather than encouraged, the future is looking a bit grim.

By the time Elf & Safety have finished, you won't be able to race cars at all. Just tricycles with foam rubber surrounds or Scalextric cars - as long as there is some electricity...

[Ross Hollings]

Can i ask a question,historic race cars,open cars,ie those race by HRSCC,Vintage Car Club,
etc,do not need seatbelts [?] ,roll cages [?] ,is that true?
SO if they can race without that protection why not can others,remember years ago when the argument about fireproof overalls came out ,and some said it did not matter for club events,there is a very old saying "There is no such thing as a clubmans fire"?

[rf84]

That is partly correct Ross. The HRSCC scrutineer to MNZ regs. The VCC have their own regs and do not require seat belts or roll bars.
The crux of the "problem" is that when MNZ promulgate rules they do not seem to differentiate between forms of car racing that have relatively low levels of risk and those that have higher levels of risk. Most people would agree that a Standing 1/4 Mile Sprint is less dangerous than a field of F5000 cars racing on a circuit. But the regs often do not reflect this.
Maybe the VCC have some common sense. As Ray has quite rightly pointed out in Post #120 MNZ do not differentiate between different designs and/or different materials used in race car construction. VCC probably acknowledge that if you tried to fit a roll bar to say an MGTF the roll bar itself may be strong enough to prevent injury in the case of a crash but what about the attachments to the car? There are very few possible attachment points and they are weak so will likely fail in a crash. Though not required under VCC regs there are very few (if any cars) racing under VCC regs that do not have some form of roll protection or seat belts. They just don't get overly officious about "out of date" seat belts or roll bars that don't meet the same standards as those required for F5000 cars.

[Oldfart]

My tuppence.
Some of you will know that my son did the basics of an FEA (Finite Element Analysis) for Dave Silcock on his "non legal" cage which he had built from Chrome Moly, but failed to get the paperwork done on time before MSNZ moved the goal posts on the main hoop. As Sean doesn't have the applicable certification his numbers would not have been accepted. (He does do rather high powered engineering for a significant manufacturer of close to £2 million cars here in the UK). Out of interest he did a quick set on the MSNZ "approved" cage. Dave's one would pass the numbers which MSNZ required, the MSNZ one doesn't, and by quite a way.
As Ray says, they have no differentiation on "their" cage for if you are putting it in a Falcon or a Bambina, but when it came to the Jag, they wanted to include the weight of the car as a reason to decline.
Bashing heads against a wall comes to mind.

[Allan]

I do know of a vehicle imported recently from Europe with a FIA cage that had to be modified to comply with MNZ regs.

[Oldfart]

I do know of a vehicle imported recently from Europe with a FIA cage that had to be modified to comply with MNZ regs.

I had too do that for a car allowed to run an NZ event as long as the driver was on an International, overseas (MSA UK) licence. When I bought it with a MSNZ licence it had to be changed. One event, not crashed, brand new seats, cage, belts, extinguishers, and all FIA, and 5 years within date not allowed for NZ!

[Ross Hollings]

Then you have to ask who set these rules and regulations,evidently they were not racers,to use a phrase,who voted them in and what is their agenda ?You have to wonder about these folks,are they for the sport or not,you hear politicians going down the line "Lets make it easier for business to do there business" ,and this is how it should work for MSNZ when coming to setting rules etc,"what makes it easier for people to go race there car etc.It is plain to see that this is not happening,you have a bunch of decision makers who have no concept at what they are doing to the sport,regretfully lot of it now is "arse covering" in case of an accident etc.

[khyndart in CA]

I think it is a way of phasing racing out without making it an official announcement.
They hate the noise, the pollution, the danger, they want the land for better use etc. etc.
We are a thing of the past so let's enjoy it while we can !:(

[rf84]

MNZ have a Chief Technical Officer and two Assistant Technical Officers. They are paid employees of MNZ and not elected.

[Ross Hollings]

Whats their history and have they ever competed in anything.Bit like the current government perhaps all they have ever done is University .

[rf84]

Who knows Ross? They seem to promulgate the rules and implement them. Whether or not they have any relevant experience and/or whether the proposed changes have to be approved by anyone else at MNZ is one of those mysteries that causes so many competitors to get very frustrated with the way MNZ is run. But who are we to question them? We (every affiliated car club member) are just the "mugs" who pay for their running costs. Their AGCM is coming up next month. Who knows what is on the agenda so we can have some input? Very few people. After the AGCM will we get to learn what was discussed/decided? Highly unlikely.

[nigel watts]

Who knows Ross? They seem to promulgate the rules and implement them. Whether or not they have any relevant experience and/or whether the proposed changes have to be approved by anyone else at MNZ is one of those mysteries that causes so many competitors to get very frustrated with the way MNZ is run. But who are we to question them? We (every affiliated car club member) are just the "mugs" who pay for their running costs. Their AGCM is coming up next month. Who knows what is on the agenda so we can have some input? Very few people. After the AGCM will we get to learn what was discussed/decided? Highly unlikely.

Well I would suggest that the folk who pay [that's YOU] organise yourselves and DEMAND some answers. They, MNZ, exist because of YOU and NOT the other way around.

[rf84]

"MNZ exist because of YOU and NOT the other way around".
Agree 100% Nigel. Pity that they seem to not understand that. I have tried to get answers over the years. Twice I have written to members of the Executive but they did not have the decency to reply. The General Manager did respond to one letter. Repeated attempts to get changes via the local Club have failed. MNZ produce some very good on-line newsletters and could possibly alleviate some of the criticisms levelled against it by being more transparent about what happens at the AGCM.

[ERC]

Although I am a bit out of it now, I suspect that much of it has to do with personnel on board at the time. Rather like a change of government, the incumbents need to front up and maybe, just maybe, there are people there now who are more pragmatic rather than idealistic?

In the case of Dave Silcock's Jag and my own car, they COULD have signed them off if they wanted to and all would be a lot rosier. How many others got caught in the same trap but just walked away from the sport? How many cars are just parked up in sheds because of their attitude and rules, not to mention gross overcharging at every step?

I still cannot see why my car is parked next to the car of the person who built my cage and my engine, as well as his own, and his not only has about double the horsepower, but competes in circuit racing and Targa type rallies, yet his cage is still legal and mine is not, yet mine was only ever built as a road car, with the expectation of maybe an occasional sprint or hillclimb, but it made sense to put in a cage whilst the bodyshell was stripped and to partially futureproof for any subsequent owner. Not submitting the paperwork in time as an excuse for not passing it, (even tough they'd already given permission to paint the car years earlier), is not helping anyone. Arse covering? They would have been in far deeper doo-doo if I'd removed the cage and full harness belts and then had a fatal!

What really irked was that although I applied for a logbook which was granted, apparently, when MSNZ found out that the LVVTA had passed the cage, they were going to cancel the logbook! Encouraging us to participate? I don't think so Tim.

[bill hollingsworth]

Racing has divided into two camps, the corporate, professional group and the amateurs. The ruling bodies cater for the former.

[nigel watts]

Well from what I'm hearing, you guys, the competitors, are not happy about the way motoorsport is run in NZ so you need to organise yourselves and challenge MSNZ as it seems to me that the tail is wagging the dog. There are far more of you than there is of them and since you are effectively paying them they should be fully accountable to you. You, the competitors ARE motorsport in NZ and MSNZ doesn't seem to understand that basic fact. You, as a group, need to remind them of that fact.

[nigel watts]

Racing has divided into two camps, the corporate, professional group and the amateurs. The ruling bodies cater for the former.

Yes, but there are far more of you in the amateur camp so you need to make yourselves heard, or go on strike so to speak. If nobody does anything nothing will ever change.

[ERC]

Unfortunately Nigel, each club only gets one conference vote, whether they have 20 members or 400 members, but they pay a levy for each member. If you are a member of say the HRC and the BMW club and TACCOC, MSNZ collects 3 levies.

This is going over old ground for many of us, but potential changes to better serve the active competitors, have been thwarted by a plethora of smaller clubs with no interest whatever in either racing or rallying, yet they have the right to vote on any and every issue.

Effectively, two small clubs with a total of 40 members, none of whom may be racers, carry twice as much weight as say BMW with over 150 active members, out at several meetings a year - where they also pay a $60 MSNZ levy for every meeting. Any attempts to change the voting system to better represent the drivers have been overturned.

MGCC Auckland with over 400 members made the decision to pull out of MSNZ and therefore the levies they had to pay, with active motorsport members shifting to a sub branch - MG Motorsport, where levies are paid.

It sound simple Nigel, but unless all the larger active clubs, split into groups of 20, where each block/sub-section then gets a vote, nothing is really going to change. I could see massive changes for the benefit of us all with 20 BMW, 20 MG, maybe 10 Alfa Romeo groups voting... Carry that over to all the other larger clubs and you can see how the amateurs could indeed effect change.

The other options are for an outlaw organisation - or for VCC to change their eligibility rules from just pre 1961 cars, to a second group of pre 2000 cars! That would be just brilliant. Leave MSNZ for the modern Sing Songs, Falcodores and Toymotors. Job done.

[nigel watts]

Ray,
There must be something you can do. After all MSNZ would be nothing without the grass root racers - promotors would have nothing to promote withouit grass root racers - circuit owners wouldn't host many meetings without grass root racers.
So, it would appear that there are more people in the grass root category than any other group.
Why do you need MSNZ? Break away and form a new 'governing body' for grass root racers. Give them the 'middle finger' unless they start taking care of your wants and needs.
I believe that a similar break away took place a year or two ago in the drag racing fraternity so it can be done.
Where there's a will there's a way as they say.

[rf84]

It is difficult to oppose them as they have access to virtually unlimited funds and will use them to vigorously maintain their monopoly over the sport. Part of my correspondence with the General Manager was to express my concern about MNZ continually passing on their costs to members of affiliated clubs and competitors and the detrimental effect this was having on club memberships and competitor numbers. His response was to lay a large part of the blame on parties taking legal action against MNZ. It demonstrates that they will not hesitate to use member's money to fund any battle they choose to fight or to recoup funds lost by their bad decisions. Some of us older members still recall the levies they imposed years ago to recoup money lost by a subsidiary company they set up that ran a financially disastrous summer race series. And the Coffee Cart is still a very sensitive subject in MNZ circles!

[John McKechnie]

a second group of pre 2000 cars .......
Ray, that would be a lot of cars

[nigel watts]

If all grass root racers stopped paying the levies I'm sure that would get their attention.

[rf84]

If you don't pay the levies you cannot compete.

[nigel watts]

If you don't pay the levies you cannot compete.

Who says?

[rf84]

There are various forms of levy. Clubs are levied an affiliation fee for every member. This is built in to membership fees (subs). If you don't pay the annual sub, you cannot be a club member. There are levies in the form of MNZ Permit fees. Every event must have a MNZ Permit. Until the beginning of this year our local Club charged $15 to enter a motorkhana. Of this $15, $10 went to MNZ in Permit fees ie they made TWICE as much out of the event as the organising Club did! Licences, log books, roll bar homologation are all forms of levies. They may not be called a levy, but they are all ways used by MNZ to finance their operations. So when they require more money they simply increase their fees.

[nigel watts]

Excuse my ignorance but where do MSNZ get their authority from? If you want change you have to find a way to make it happen, otherwise you'll still be unhappy about things in 20 years time and grass roots racing may not be around.
Anyway I'm about to depart for Hampton Downs rain and all. I hope the Ferrari owners don't mind getting their cars wet!!

[John McKechnie]

Just read Norm Beechey -AMC #100,-got paid $17,500 to come to NZ to race his Monaro here at Puke;
For him, it was the highlight of his career.
I went to this meeting to see this wonder car
That was excellent value for the money in my mind, and we all still talk of it now


And Nigel...its bucketing down up here.

[rf84]

MNZ are affiliated to the FIA (the world governing body of motorsport).
MNZ have control of motorsport in this country which they maintain in various ways. They issue Track Licences for the circuits and Permits for events not held on circuits (hillclimbs, autocrosses etc). They then issue Competition Licences to individual competitors so that they can compete in MNZ sanctioned events. If an individual contravenes MNZ rules they can be disciplined in various ways including having their competition licence revoked. Competing in non-MNZ sanctioned motorsport events could result in disciplinary action. These are all "in house" methods.
Then there was the recent case where a group attempted to set up a 'rival' series (the V8 Supertourers). This ended up in Court and MNZ (i.e. every car club member) with a $800,000 bill.

[928]

the clubs should only pay a levy on issued competition licenses not totall members. MSNZ should pay mashalls instead of charging them a levy to do a remarable job for free.

[rf84]

Your suggestion has some merit 928. I gave up active participation in competition three years ago but continued to serve on our local car club committee, as a flag marshall, event organiser and a MNZ licensed Scrutineer. Partly because of dwindling membership and a reluctance of remaining members to help with events, I found a few of us were being called upon to do more and more work. I think our club now has only one MNZ licensed Scrutineer so he is going to have a lot of demands placed upon him. As you rightly point out 928 people like myself are paying for the "privilege" of doing work for the clubs and MNZ. Why should I pay an affiliation fee to MNZ so I can go and socialise at a monthly club night? Or to go sit out in the country waving a flag in the hot sun (or, on several occasions, snow)?
Your suggestion will never be taken up however. It would cause a significant drop in income for MNZ by way of loss of affiliation fees and a corresponding large increase in fees for Competition Licences. This would inevitably exacerbate the problem we are facing which is fewer and fewer competitors.

[bill hollingsworth]

Who controls speedway in NZ?

[Ross Hollings]

I seem to remember many years ago,and i am talking many,there was a lot of disatisfaction about MSN when they really start to pump up the fees,as memory serves me a breakaway group was formed i think, BUT,basically had no where to race as the circuit owners/operators shut then out .Does anyone else remember this or am i getting confused in my senior years.

[rf84]

Speedway is administered by Speedway NZ. I do not know if it affiliated to MNZ or not. Can anyone tell us?

[ERC]

If the VCC can run an event, then that seems to me to be the best option, but I'm sure Roger or Rhys will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe they have 'an understanding' with MSNZ, that they limit their events to pre 1961 cars?

They have run the Roycroft meetings at Hampton Downs for the last few years. I am also assuming that Hampton Downs has never had an exclusive with MSNZ, therefore I'm not sure what the situation would be if any breakaway organisation approached them. I believe some other tracks are bound to MSNZ? Again, not sure.

There is the issue of insurance liability, but in the event of a fatal, then the police always have to investigate. If a safety plan is submitted as now, for a MSNZ permit, then I'm not too sure what the current MSNZ insurance liability covers, other than protection for its officials, valid as long as they adhere to published ASRs. (Note the Queenstown tragedy.) At the moment, as long as officials abide by the MSNZ rules and published ASR's, they are covered, as many will know, meeting organisers can be taken to court if they are in any way negligent.

The insurance certainly doesn't seem to cover damage or losses to competitors' vehicles, nor damage to the track barriers, use of fire extinguishers, spill kits etc., so it appears to be a liability cover. Not my field of expertise!

[Oldfart]

Events run on circuits under a VCC permit, by agreement between VCC and MSNZ, as you allude to Ray, are restricted to those vehicles before 31 December 1960. There are vehicle rules which dates a vehicle by the newest of body/chassis and engine, so effectively shuts out the pre-65 cars, which a) VCC don't want as they are not representative of vehicles of the pre 1960 era, and b) MSNZ didn't want to lose the fees from.
For anything other than circuit events, VCC is allowed to run vehicles over 30 years old, however some events (eg Chelsea Walsh) restrict which vehicles they will accept. The wording in the VCC rule book for tyres precludes some cars by default.
A "mythical" non acceptable car would be an A40 Farinawith a 5 bearing MGB motor just for argument's sake.

[ERC]

Thanks Rhys.

I had an in depth, interesting chat yesterday at Hampton Downs whilst sheltering from the rain, with someone intimately connected with the sport across most classes.

We both believe that any small grid is an absolute killer from several viewpoints - which have been covered in the past. We both believe passionately, that regardless of it being a Tier 1 meeting or a National meeting, absolutely no-one benefits from a small grid.

We also both believe that the time has come that any race meeting, (apart from maybe the Aussie V8s) has to be financially viable with a zero paying spectator expectation. Driver entry fees cover all the outgoings.

If sponsors want to throw money at a meeting and festoon the track with signage, paste billboards all over the place, pay for a series organiser or promote the meeting, pay for TV coverage, that is their choice, but getting people through the gate to balance the books is fraught with problems - including the weather.

Having got that far, we then discussed the problem of not just smaller grids, but to quote Tony Roberts, "The Chinese Warlord Mentality", where self interested potential warlords, set rules in place that have a high degree of self interest, either honourably motivated or otherwise, or, reject existing laid down rules because those rules are either flawed and unworkable, or do not reflect the wishes of sufficient drivers, but who can still put together a viable grid outside of those rules. (There is a case for both.)

From a meeting organisers perspective, we both believe that if a grid limit for saloons at Hampton Downs is 46 cars (national track) putting just 5 or 6 cars on track is absolutely pointless and ignores the negative effect on flag marshals, spectators and even the commentator, tasked with making a 4 or 5 car procession sound interesting - when it quite plainly isn't.

Whether it is tier 1 or a national event, if there are likely to be less than 15 single seater cars on a grid (other than maybe TRS), it HAS to be combined. No excuses.

For saloons, that minimum should be at least 20 cars. It is pointless having over 200 cars at a meeting (which is obviously good), if there are several races of small grids, doing little more than stretching out the meeting unnecessarily.

If there is a danger of one group all being lapped, in an 8 lap combined race, extend that race to 9 laps. Win - win.

Yes, that may be simplistic, because if say the grid of Toyota 86's is just 9 cars, Toyota who may be paying for TV coverage, may not take too kindly to a grid padded out with Suzuki Swifts (what happened to them?) and Minis. So who is really calling the shots and who is sending the sport downhill? Maybe the very people who are using the sport (and its officials) as a cost effective means of spending their advertising budget?

Getting a small one make grid televised is not making the sport exciting, though from a manufacturer's perspective, it is a far better spend than a newspaper that is tomorrow's chip wrapper.

It seems that most of the spend by MSNZ is the amateurs subsidising the professionals - which was Nigel's point. Surely, it has to change?

Not a fair comparison by any means but just for a laugh:

10:17am Goodwood Note - no catch fencing = great spectator experience

53119

11:13am Pukekohe Note - catch fencing = poor spectator experience

53120

[bill hollingsworth]

I think Goodwood shows how to run a really successful event that relies on spectators not competitors for its continuing financial success. It is about providing something that will engage a large number of people who have a common interest in old cars and the general culture of that time. Remember that racing at Goodwood was shut down in 1966 because the previous Lord March thought that it was getting out of control with costs and speed. Even if you go to Goodwood and not see one car race you will have a fantastic experience. Racing can kill easily kill racing. For too long technical progress has been killing racing. Not only do you have to have the newest stickier tyres they now have to have an expensive heat treatment to get even more grip. The narrow focus on rules for cars, a multitude of classes and the ridiculous costs of modern motor racing have made it less appealing for drivers and not appealing at all for spectators. In contrast old cars have never been more popular which is the silver lining that can easily be exploited. Makes events something that car clubs include on their calendars. Be more inclusive by promoting regularity, handicap and sprint events. Rallying is about racing against the clock and crashing into the scenery rather than other competitor's cars and is as popular as ever. Baskerville in Hobart, Tasmania, is a great example of how to run a once a year historic meeting that is increasing in popularity with both spectators and competitors. The end is not nigh.

[John McKechnie]

Heres an answer to Ford fans requests-
DJR Team Penske and Tickford Racing will race Ford Mustangs in the 2019 Virgin Australia Supercars Championship, Ford Australia has announced
Nice to post some good news here.
Oh yes, btw, it has a V8

[Oldfart]

Heres an answer to Ford fans requests-
DJR Team Penske and Tickford Racing will race Ford Mustangs in the 2019 Virgin Australia Supercars Championship, Ford Australia has announced
Nice to post some good news here.
Oh yes, btw, it has a V8

I assume that means replica Mustang body panels on a spec chassis :) ?