Formula 5000

[Oldfart]

The famous Smothers Brothers! Steve, that is absolutely brilliant! I'd love to see more.

There is not a hell of a lot more of Candy to be able to see! (Well legally anyway)

[M10B]

That is a great looking model. Does anyone know if there has been a 1/18 scale model of a McLaren M10 produced ??

Unfortunately there has been no McLaren M10 scale model.
Spark we're in the process of manufacturing a 1/43 scale back in 2010 but due to financial pressures abandoned the project.

Interesting to see that the Classic Carlectables Matich
A50 has had the 'Rothmans' removed from the Team Matich circular logo......

[Eagle512]

There is not a hell of a lot more of Candy to be able to see! (Well legally anyway)

OF, it's all about perspective.

In front of Dick Smothers restaurant, Manhattan Beach, CA. 1970 Candy Martin and Eagle #512 on press day.

12098

[Eagle512]

1972 Laguna Seca L&M Grand Prix program. Note the prize money. A pretty nice payday for 1972. I believe that's David Hobbs in Carl Hogan's M10b. Though the picture is in the 1972 program it's from 1971 I think. The results show Hobbs drove a Lola in '72.

12099

[Eagle512]

1972 Laguna Seca L&M Grand Prix. Dave Jordan in Eagle#512 on his way up to the corkscrew (turn 6 then?)
12102

[Eagle512]

1972 Laguna Seca L&M Grand Prix. And the winner is..... I think you'll recognize a name or two here.
12103

[David McKinney]

The Eagle featured here is of course the one raced by Bill Simpson in the first Tasman Series in 1970

[seaqnmac27]

Bill Simpson at Levin
12109

[Eagle512]

David, yes, the very same.

It seems the rear wing was different at nearly every event! I'm not sure where the below was from. Pukekohe?

I've seen another photo in Wolfgang Klopfer's "Formula 5000 in New Zealand & Australian Race by Race" from Warick Farm that shows yet a 3rd rear wing setup. Also notice that the number "23" is different.

12110

[seaqnmac27]

Bill Simpson at Levin
12109

This shot is at Levin 1970

[stubuchanan]

David, yes, the very same.

It seems the rear wing was different at nearly every event! I'm not sure where the below was from. Pukekohe?

I've seen another photo in Wolfgang Klopfer's "Formula 5000 in New Zealand & Australian Race by Race" from Warick Farm that shows yet a 3rd rear wing setup. Also notice that the number "23" is different.

12110

Photo is from 1970 Pukekohe. See car again in Post #68 and Post #62 on this thread.

Levin was the week before Pukekohe that season and Simpson wasn't entered at Baypark the week before that - not a Tasman Champ Race. No time for properly painted numbers? or just a practice shot maybe?

Stu

[MarkQ]

12179
Bill Simpsons Eagle at Teretonga pits 1970.
Does anyone know who the mechanic in the wheel chair is?

[MarkQ]

12180
Rob Gramble's McLaren M10 with unusual nose cone, Teretonga 1970.

[MarkQ]

12181

[Oldfart]

12179
Bill Simpsons Eagle at Teretonga pits 1970.
Does anyone know who the mechanic in the wheel chair is?

I have forgotten his name but was supposed to have an amazing ear for V8 tune

[Steve Holmes]

Steve, Mark, these photos are amazing! Please keep them coming.

[Steve Holmes]

12180
Rob Gramble's McLaren M10 with unusual nose cone, Teretonga 1970.

Damn nice Impala in the background too!

[Steve Holmes]

1972 Laguna Seca L&M Grand Prix. And the winner is..... I think you'll recognize a name or two here.
12103

Boy, those Lola T300s would have been so new here the paint on them would have still been wet!

[stubuchanan]

I have forgotten his name but was supposed to have an amazing ear for V8 tune

Photo caption in 1970 Shell NZ Motor Racing says "Yank Mechanic of the Year Larry Burton", which rings a bell.
Perhaps Mr Grimwood could OK the posting of the 2 photos (presumably both Euan Sarginson's)

Stu

[MarkQ]

Thanks Steve, The cars & people in the backgrounds are great to look at. I wonder where that Impala coupe ended up?
Here are a few more from Teretonga 1970.
12192
Mike Goth Surtees TS5
12193
Mike Campbell, I not sure what chassis this one is but it's powered by Ford by the looks.
12194
Swede, Ulf Norinders Lola, who by all accounts was a true character, he had to retire half way through race with 'heat exhaustion' apparantley he enjoyed the Southland hospitality the night before so much that he puked in his helmet after 30 odd laps. Was this true? There must be many stories out there of this guy.
12195
Graham McRae's M10A, winner of the feature race 1970 Teretonga.

[MarkQ]

12191Teretonga 1970, warm up lap, our Southland grandstands are rippers! catch fences, tyre walls and sand traps were yet to arrive,
maybe its a shame they did.. these spectators must have be truly thrilled watching these weapons that close to the action.

[David McKinney]

Mike Campbell's mount was a (the?) Forsgrini

The unsual nose on Grable's McLaren was possible because of the rear-mounted radiator

[GD66]

12180
Rob Gramble's McLaren M10 with unusual nose cone, Teretonga 1970.


That's GRABLE himself at the rear of the car, chatting with Feo Stanton in the orange jacket. The mechanic, Ken Holden, is the bloke who built the Spectre HR-1 that Grable drove to win NZ's first Fomula A/5000 race at Bay Park, December '68.

[Eagle512]

12179
Bill Simpsons Eagle at Teretonga pits 1970.


Mark, incredible photographs! Thanks for sharing. I'd never seen these photos from Teratonga before. Amazing.

[kiwi285]

12194
Swede, Ulf Norinders Lola, who by all accounts was a true character, he had to retire half way through race with 'heat exhaustion' apparantley he enjoyed the Southland hospitality the night before so much that he puked in his helmet after 30 odd laps. Was this true? There must be many stories out there of this guy.

He certainly was that. He propositioned by wife and promised her a really great time.

I see this morning on the news that Lola Car has gone to the wall. A real pity as they produced some really great looking cars - I love the T70 series of cars.

[Steve Holmes]

These are amazing Mark!

[Eagle512]

A nice article and great photoset from the Questor Grand Prix, 1971.

http://legacymotorsport.com/featured/the-1971-questor-grand-prix-a-race-never-repeated/

[MarkQ]

12373
Derrick Williams Lola T-142 also at Teretonga 1970

[Rod Grimwood]

Photo caption in 1970 Shell NZ Motor Racing says "Yank Mechanic of the Year Larry Burton", which rings a bell.
Perhaps Mr Grimwood could OK the posting of the 2 photos (presumably both Euan Sarginson's)

Stu

No problem Stu

[GD66]

Race report and results from Teretonga 1970.

http://www.sergent.com.au/motor/tas70t.html

[Rod Grimwood]

Photo caption in 1970 Shell NZ Motor Racing says "Yank Mechanic of the Year Larry Burton", which rings a bell.
Perhaps Mr Grimwood could OK the posting of the 2 photos (presumably both Euan Sarginson's)

Stu

Just loaded them, Gee Stu pressure. You are so right. 1st photo says Yank mechanic of the year Larry Burton supervised last minute work on Bill Simpsons Eagle from his wheelchair.
2nd says, Larry Burton chaired an impromtu meeting attended by Max Stewart, Kevin Bartlett and Bill Simpson

[Rod Grimwood]

12194
Swede, Ulf Norinders Lola, who by all accounts was a true character, he had to retire half way through race with 'heat exhaustion' apparantley he enjoyed the Southland hospitality the night before so much that he puked in his helmet after 30 odd laps. Was this true? There must be many stories out there of this guy.

He certainly was that. He propositioned by wife and promised her a really great time.

I see this morning on the news that Lola Car has gone to the wall. A real pity as they produced some really great looking cars - I love the T70 series of cars.


Kiwi 285, is this your missus

MarkQ, this may help explain the helmet.

[stubuchanan]

Kiwi 285, is this your missus



Could be Miss New Zealand getting the Norinder pitch. ?Heather Gettings? (No pun intended)

Stu

[Eagle512]

Just loaded them, ...

Rod, Thank you for posting these remarkable photos. Very much appreciated.

Steve

[Oldfart]

That photo of Norinder could almost be a caption contest!
How about, "I could hold you beautiful butt like this and...."

[Rod Grimwood]

That photo of Norinder could almost be a caption contest!
How about, "I could hold you beautiful butt like this and...."

Or "To drive these cars real fast, you need bal#@ this big"

[kiwi285]

Kiwi 285, is this your missus

MarkQ, this may help explain the helmet.

Probably in shorts rather than a dress. Obviously a man never to pass up an opportunity.

[Eagle512]

Just a reminder for those of you close enough to attend. Expected 25+ F5000's. Tasman Revival.

Round 3: 23rd, 24th and 25th of November 2012: Tasman Revival, Sydney Motorsport Park Raceway, Sydney, NSW, Australia.

[Nick Slade]

The Mclaren M10 that we rebuilt last year will be running at Hampton downs this weekend and then Ruapuna on 2nd 3rd of Feb 2013.
Bruce Leeson will be Driving the car so keep an eye out for it!
http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad201/nickardele/E355B93B-8D62-4747-88C0-0330FC591696-330-000000785FEC716E.jpg
http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad201/nickardele/D509C3BE-7CEA-4244-983C-F1F665AE52CA-330-000000787A1E5F15.jpg
http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad201/nickardele/82F94284-514A-4911-BD36-7B742E172EBA-330-000000788EBC7675.jpg

[Allan]

I am curious to know what happened to the BRP64/Ford that came to NZ for the 1970 series and ended with the unenviable finishing/starting record of Kaye Griffiths Levin (DNQ) Pukekohe NZIGP (Ret) Wigram (DNQ) and Peter Huges Teretonga (DNS). It is shown in some parts as having been sold to Peter Hughes but I have a feeling that this is incorrect as when Peter raced in F5000 he was in a Begg FM2.

[Rod Grimwood]

Nick, car looked very nice, went well, but expired on Saturday.

[SPman]

Whose car is this? I took it at Bay Park in late 69, but I'm damned if I can recall who it is.
JonL

[GD66]

If he didn't make an impression on you that weekend, you must have been on holidays with a new girlfriend !

'Tis Graham McRae in the Crown Lynn McLaren M10A.

[SPman]

Alchoholic haze, I think. The party the night before was quite intense.........

[Allan]

Same meeting perhaps?15478

[Allan]

With luck another picture15479

[GD66]

Great pics, lovely colour : are they from slides ? Jack Inwood at work outside the fence in the bottom pic.
Must be the early December meeting, as it's only a small field.
McRae, #14 Lawrence : #8 might be Cary Taylor in the Brabham, and#39 Peter Hughes in the Lotus 25/33, #7 Peter Moloney in the Cooper and #19 John Nicholson in the ex-Lawrence BT18.

[SPman]

Same meeting perhaps? Indeed it was. Mine are from slides - about the only time I took them, unfortunately. I might even have some 8mm movie somewhere I'll dig out - or perhaps that was the Norm Beechey meeting, with the Chevy Nova.
Not F5000, but Peter Hughes Graeme Lawrence and "Fat Jack" at the same meeting

[SPman]

Whoops - no - Peter Hughes must be at a different meeting......damn memory is not what it was.......

[Nick Slade]

Yes, it was a shame I am sure it will be running down there again some time!

[Allan]

Yes GD66 those are from slides.

[BMCBOY]

I have been searching through a lot of old negatives from when I first started taking motorsport photos and I have come up with a few that may be of interest.
The quality isn't that good but they are always fun to look at after all these years

19125

19126

19127

19128

[BMCBOY]

19130

19132

19134

19133

19135

19131

[Rod Grimwood]

Nothing wrong with those photos Ross, every one a gem.

[Rod Grimwood]

Nothing wrong with those photos Ross, every one a gem.

Ross just jolting my mind, but did you have a Mk1 Escort white and green way back.

[BMCBOY]

Nothing wrong with those photos Ross, every one a gem.

Ross just jolting my mind, but did you have a Mk1 Escort white and green way back.

No not me Rod, you may be thinking of Dennis Green who was also a keen photographer.
He competed in the odd event also those days.

Thanks for the comment re photos - I will continue to add more soon as I have digitised a
good number now especially from the mid 70's, but there are a huge number of shots I haven't
even looked at yet up to the early 80's.

[Michael Clark]

"The quality isn't that good..."

These are wonderful! I am seriously struggling to remember the livery of the M4A by then.

[BMCBOY]

"The quality isn't that good..."

These are wonderful! I am seriously struggling to remember the livery of the M4A by then.

Here's another shot taken around the same time to jolt your memory Michael

19142

[Michael Clark]

It's not happening for me Rossco - red and white?

[Rod Grimwood]

It's not happening for me Rossco - red and white?


Same time frame, but 2 different colour schemes, front wings and sign writing, and second photo is on slicks. Ross Galagher was pretty good charger, and going way back in brain think first colour was blue, and think you may be right Michael with second photo.

[BMCBOY]

Here's another lot from a bit later now that we are in the mood.......

19143

19144

19145

19146

19147

19148

[BMCBOY]

19151

19152

19153

19154

ATTACH=CONFIG]19149[/ATTACH]

ATTACH=CONFIG]19150[/ATTACH]

[BMCBOY]

19160

19156

19159

19158

19157

19155

That should do for a while, hope they are of interest

[Steve Holmes]

Wow these are just stunning Ross! I especially love the opening shot of Reg Cook in the T300. To my mind this is the best profile of the T300. Out of interest, the second car pictured which appears to be Robbie Francevic, what sort of car is this?

[BMCBOY]

Wow these are just stunning Ross! I especially love the opening shot of Reg Cook in the T300. To my mind this is the best profile of the T300. Out of interest, the second car pictured which appears to be Robbie Francevic, what sort of car is this?

I believe this is Robbie Booth in the Begg - Chev FM4

[Steve Holmes]

Ahhh, right, makes more sense than Francevic.

[Steve Holmes]

By the way, is Robbie Booth related to Andy Booth?

[BMCBOY]

I think they are father and son

[Habu]

Thank you for posting - these pictures are exceptional.

[Rod Grimwood]

I think they are father and son

Correct Ross, after Andy had a drive of a F5000 at HD with Murphy last Jan he stated 'Dad you are a real man'

[Michael Clark]

Andy once told me how Robbie still shakes his head when describing driving the Katipo...

[Howard Wood]

Robbie was definitely brave to drive that Katipo. Bear in mind that he had lost part of a leg before he started racing which would not have made driving any easier, especially a truck like F5000.

He went really well in the Begg FM4 and was no slouch in FFord before that.

[BMCBOY]

[QUOTE=Howard Wood;30671]Robbie was definitely brave to drive that Katipo. Bear in mind that he had lost part of a leg before he started racing which would not have made driving any easier, especially a truck like F5000.


I guess it was a handfull on the gravel too........

19170

[Rod Grimwood]

Remember when Bill David had the Begg he kept it in a shed down Porana Rd Nth Shore infront of Lyalls painters workshop. I think he also had the GEMCO sitting in there,(it was a big sports car that was there) used to drop in and spend a bit of time chatting way back then. He told me one day (having a beer after work as you did then on a Friday) that i should buy the sports car and he would do a deal with me, being in early 20s and finding it hard to buy a decent pie then, I just dreamt. Me and Lyall talked about it a bit but that was as far as it went, talk. Most probably good that we didn't get it as the paint shop burnt to the ground and there was some neat cars lost in the fire.

[Steve Holmes]

[QUOTE=Howard Wood;30671]Robbie was definitely brave to drive that Katipo. Bear in mind that he had lost part of a leg before he started racing which would not have made driving any easier, especially a truck like F5000.


I guess it was a handfull on the gravel too........

19170

WOW!

[Michael Clark]

Rod, I wonder if the car you are thinking of is the Gemco bodied Elfin 400 of Grahame Harvey. I think Bill David also owned that, and the ex Noyes/Lawrence Brabham BT29.

[Rod Grimwood]

Rod, I wonder if the car you are thinking of is the Gemco bodied Elfin 400 of Grahame Harvey. I think Bill David also owned that, and the ex Noyes/Lawrence Brabham BT29.

That's it Michael, as been chatting with mates about it and we thought the Elfin was involved, I think it was a orange colour then. And yes he had a smaller single seater in shed as well.

[GD66]

Rod, I wonder if the car you are thinking of is the Gemco bodied Elfin 400 of Grahame Harvey.



Not to poke my head up as an anorak, but the Gemco and the Elfin are two different cars and can be seen together in post #49 of the Kiwi Big Banger Sports Cars thread. Needless to say, they are both orange...:)

[Michael Clark]

They had to be two different cars to race against one another - Harvey fitted a GEMCO McLaren M8 body to the Elfin 400 - and yes it was in the orange livery of Wix.

I recall the actual GEMCO ending up being a kind of mustard colour of Duckhams - sadly all near the end of big banger sports car racing here. When the GEMCO first arrived, it was an orange/red as I recall.

[GD66]

The slots on the rear bodywork, the side scoop on the left rear and the batman-shaped exhaust to the front rad all look the same to me both in the WIX configuration and the earlier, light blue format pictured earlier in the thread. Can't really agree that it looks like an M8 body at all.
But anyway, we were lucky to have those two ripping round duking it out pretty competitively for our entertainment, with earlier the Stanton and then the T70 in the mix in Jim Boyd's hands. Used to love standing down the end of the back straight, hair-raising stuff...:cool:

[Rod Grimwood]

Michael the car had WIX on it, remember that part.

[Michael Clark]

Let's backtrack

When it was pale blue, it had the Elfin 400 body that Garrie Cooper intended - agree that that is nothing like a McLaren M8
The 400 body was painted in WIX orange, as was the M8 GEMCO body.

For the avoidance of doubt, the 'M8' body was never pale blue...

[GD66]

Roger that, got it now.

[John McKechnie]

The Elfin sits in a garage in Auckland with both bodies there.

[Michael Clark]

I wish it was my garage...

[John McKechnie]

If it will ease the pain Michael, in 1972 you could buy the GEMCO bodies-$484 for the front, $230 for the rear..........

[Oldfart]

And you could buy the moulds, which I paid for and then was unable to get delivery of after a number of trips, and blew the money I paid for them, no moulds, no refund!

[John McKechnie]

Rhys- is this an experience you would like to tell us more of as I wondered what happened to them

[Michael Clark]

I'll have two fronts, a rear, and two dollars chips please

[Oldfart]

Rhys- is this an experience you would like to tell us more of as I wondered what happened to them

The moulds were in West Auckland. I went and looked, paid over a deposit and returned a week later with a trailer, as agreed and as written on the receipt. "Owners wife" told me that they had been sold to another guy who collected them the day before I came back. I had a receipt etc, however before the small claims could serve notice the "seller" disappeared. I had taken the intake snorkel mould, which I lent to a garage owner in Warkworth (name will not be given publicly) and bugger me if that did not disappear too. I understand there are more than one set of Gemco moulds, I absolutely know these were the ones taken from the original alloy body.

[John McKechnie]

That is a nasty story. It would be great to know those responsible for this ripoff so people would be wary of them.
I wonder how many others got caught this way

[Shano]

There was a story in Classic Car (link here) (http://www.classiccar.co.nz/articles/mccopy-kiwi-ingenuity-221)about a guy who built a "copy" McLaren M8 which he actually called the "McCopy." Not sure whether they were the same moulds, but he reckoned they were in such poor condition that, by the time he had restored them to a usable state, it would have been easier and cheaper to build new ones.

[Racer Rog]

I think Chris Orpwood have a set of moulds as well, I don't know what happened to them, but when I last saw them about 6 years ago they needed a bit of work, but where else would you get something like that, and in the condition they were in at that time, would have been a cheaper option than try and make new ones.
Roger

[Oldfart]

That is a nasty story. It would be great to know those responsible for this ripoff so people would be wary of them.
I wonder how many others got caught this way
It was in the 1980s, hopefully by now, what goes round has come round!

[Lindsay G]

Here are a couple from Wigram, possibly 74 or 75.No info on this one.23921

[Lindsay G]

I believe this one is Evan Noyes T332 Lola, at least thats whats written on the back of the photo23922

[Michael Clark]

75 Ithink

[Steve Holmes]

These photos were posted on the F5000 facebook page by Richard Evans, and I wanted to share them here. This is the Connew in F5000 form. Parked next to it is a Transit van with what appears to be a McLaren logo on the side. Does anyone know anything about this?

31670

31671

[bry3500]

These photos were posted on the F5000 facebook page by Richard Evans, and I wanted to share them here. This is the Connew in F5000 form. Parked next to it is a Transit van with what appears to be a McLaren logo on the side. Does anyone know anything about this?

31670

31671

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boZlncP1PKY

[bry3500]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG9tw1TzIVg

[GD66]

I believe this one is Evan Noyes T332 Lola, at least thats whats written on the back of the photo23922


I would have thought carrying #14 and Marlboro, Wix and Shell signage that would be Shag at work in his 332.
#13 is Graham Baker in the ex-Oxton FM5.

[GD66]

Here are a couple from Wigram, possibly 74 or 75.No info on this one.23921


The Coke signage suggests this may be Max Stewart in the T400.

[Dale Harvey]

The Coke signage suggests this may be Max Stewart in the T400.

It is a T330. The T400 came later.
Dale.

[GD66]

Thanks, is it Max ?

[Dale Harvey]

I would say, yes.
Dale.

[Rod Grimwood]

GD66 would say you right on both.

[rf84]

Love the video above. Workplace health and safety would be mortified to see the segment at the end with RS contributor Garry Simkin, Phil Harris and Peter Molloy doing a victory lap hanging off the side of the Lola.
What happened at the celebrations that night at the Travelodge Chadstone would be the start of a great thread about motor racing parties!

[Bailey]

The Coke signage suggests this may be Max Stewart in the T400.


David Oxton drove this car at the Wigram round of the ' 75 Tasman, could be him pictured here ?

[GD66]

Fair point ! Stewart would normally have carried #6, and he features in the Wigram results in the T400, so I reckon you've cracked it, Beetle.

[bry3500]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=553Oem8An4E

[bry3500]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-bWU_5k8U

[Terry S]

2430

2433

This beautiful Lola 300 #4 was entered by "Reg Papps & Sons" and driven by Bob Muir.

"Reg Papps & Sons" appear to be a bit of a mystery. I have never seen anything at all written on them, which is strange.

I believe one of the sons may have briefly driven a Lotus 22/31, without distinction. Then they appeared out of nowhere with this Lola 300, ran it for a very short time and then just as quickly disappeared, never to be heard of again.
I think they may have come from Central Coast of NSW, but can't recall where I got that. Perhaps Aussie readers may be able to help.

I recall seeing the car in the pits at Warwick Farm and it was absolutely beautifully prepared and presented. Probably the best presented open wheeler I have ever seen. It just stood apart from the other F5000's, even the internationals.

I would love to know who they were, and their story.

[gokiwi]

Found this very brief excerpt from another site

The AUST/31 etc. was done by Reg. Papps and sons when they did the '' update'' to Lotus 31 sort of specs.
The rear uprights had been modified by Papps's by welding a new magnesium top section to the existing Lotus 20 uprights
which during the course of restoration we painstakingly removed and linished back down to correct spec.
When purchased by myself the car was on 8.0'' front and 10.0'' rears , the fronts were Lotus , the rears MRC from Lionel Ayers
and were swapped in a standard chinese deal with Stephen Fryer as spares for his MRC 23B for a pair of 45 Webers.

Also found this, not sure if it is the Reg Papps you are after.

http://www.gourmantic.com/2016/04/04/ironbark-distillery/

[Terry S]

Found this very brief excerpt from another site

The AUST/31 etc. was done by Reg. Papps and sons when they did the '' update'' to Lotus 31 sort of specs.
The rear uprights had been modified by Papps's by welding a new magnesium top section to the existing Lotus 20 uprights
which during the course of restoration we painstakingly removed and linished back down to correct spec.
When purchased by myself the car was on 8.0'' front and 10.0'' rears , the fronts were Lotus , the rears MRC from Lionel Ayers
and were swapped in a standard chinese deal with Stephen Fryer as spares for his MRC 23B for a pair of 45 Webers.

Also found this, not sure if it is the Reg Papps you are after.

http://www.gourmantic.com/2016/04/04/ironbark-distillery/

Thanks go kiwi, any little bit appreciated.

[Ray Bell]

Reg Papps was a 'drinking mate' of several, including Bob Muir...

He is not the man with the distillery. Reg would be in his mid-seventies now, he was one of those people who, like Bobby, was a part of the Parramatta Road car dealer world in some way or another.

He didn't race very much, but was well-known for his meticulous preparation. The Lola, however, I seem to recall as being originally trimmed like that by Niel Allen's crew. I could be wrong, of course, Niel was never seen at a race meeting in the car.

[Terry S]

Reg Papps was a 'drinking mate' of several, including Bob Muir...

He is not the man with the distillery. Reg would be in his mid-seventies now, he was one of those people who, like Bobby, was a part of the Parramatta Road car dealer world in some way or another.

He didn't race very much, but was well-known for his meticulous preparation. The Lola, however, I seem to recall as being originally trimmed like that by Niel Allen's crew. I could be wrong, of course, Niel was never seen at a race meeting in the car.

Unfortunately this does not increase my knowledge much as these are just a few generalisations.

Re the Allen crew doing the original trim of the car, I very much doubt this as the car was green when Allen had it, and it was involved in big crash at Surfers.

What I was after was along the lines of
- Was "Reg Papps and Sons" a business, where/what etc.
- They came from nowhere to Australia's top formula with a beautiful car, and then just as quickly disappeared again.
- Are they still around?

[Ray Bell]

Reg Papps, to the best of my knowledge, worked on his own...

Like I said, he was part of that Parramatta Road car dealer scene. I met the man several times in that era, usually at after-meeting sessions when the sun had gone down.

I can offer no more until I get home and ask others, but I'm sure you could make contact with someone who knows more.

[Terry S]

Reg Papps, to the best of my knowledge, worked on his own...

So why was his business name "Reg Papps & Sons"?

[Ray Bell]

I don't know, but perhaps it was his father's business and he took over?

If I was at home I'd call Bobby Muir and ask him, or Peter Molloy, but I'm a fair way away from home at the moment...

[Terry S]

Ray, your posts seem to imply that you know very very little about Reg Papps.

However I found another forum post by you, and I quote one sentence from your post:

"Please do not tell me he's bringing that dreadful Reg Papps with him".

So who is this mysterious Reg Papps?

[Ray Bell]

I'll be home in July...

Remind me then to call Bobby Muir and ask him.

[Terry S]

I'll be home in July...

Remind me then to call Bobby Muir and ask him.

Why do ou need to ask Bob Muir, Ray?

You purport to know very little about Papps yet you label him "dreadful".

[Steve Holmes]

Why do ou need to ask Bob Muir, Ray?

You purport to know very little about Papps yet you label him "dreadful".

Er, anyway, lets keep this on subject.

[Terry S]

Er, anyway, lets keep this on subject.

Steve, with the greatest respect I believe what I am asking is entirely in line with the subject of this thread.

The Reg Papps & Sons entered Lola T300 F5000 as shown in post#8 is the most beautiful racecar I have ever seen.

The Papps seem a complete mystery, they appeared and went very quickly. Why does nobody know anything about them?

That is what I am trying to find out.

[GD66]

Why don't you contact Bob Muir direct and stop sniping at Ray, then ?

If you keep marking others' contributions the mod can get hacked off and close the thread, then we all miss out. If you really are busting for the info there are ways to get it, not just grumbling at Ray.

[Ray Bell]

And consider the fact that you asked the question a week too late...

I flew out for three months away on April 20. I don't have Bob's phone number with me.

I never, to my knowledge, saw another Papps other than the one I've mentioned. The '& son' could relate to his father, it could relate to his son if he has one. But neither or both were never present to my knowledge with the cars at the circuit.

[Dale Harvey]

I remember looking at that car at Warwick Farm and thinking the same as most, gee, it is immaculate. I also had never heard of Reg Papps and Sons and have never heard of them since. Maybe it was their one only involvement with racing cars. ???
Dale.

[Michael Clark]

There was a photo of that car in the annual review of Australian Motor Racing for about 1973 and I recall thinking that even those colours could make a Lola T300 look good. The 'immaculateness' of the car oozed off the page.

[Ray Bell]

Dale, as already discussed, Reg owned and raced a Lotus 20 which he updated to much later specs.

[Kenz]

I remember looking at that car at Warwick Farm and thinking the same as most, gee, it is immaculate. I also had never heard of Reg Papps and Sons and have never heard of them since. Maybe it was their one only involvement with racing cars. ???
Dale.
Hi Dale, and all Reg Papps fans(?)
Not quite their "only involvement" - at the following link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Hardie-Ferodo_500, it shows they entered a VH Charger in the 1971 Bathurst 500, which Bob Beasley qualified in 10th.
It finished in 10th overall (only one lap down), so must have run consistently all day. No co-driver listed- looks like Bob played a lone hand that day.
I checked the '70 and '72 events, and it didn't show them as entrants/runners in either.
If Bob B is still "going around", might be a good contact to follow up on the "mysterious" Papps clan.

[Terry S]

When I started enquiring about Reg Papps & Sons in post 362, I didn't realise they were so Unknown. I thought it was just me in that situation.

Ray Bell has in a forum post labelled Papps as "dreadful" but claims to know very little of him. He wants me to contact Bob Muir on this.

That is completely and utterly irrelevant and a distraction. Why should I ask Muir why Ray has labelled Papps "dreadful". Why can't he tell me himself? That's all I am trying to do, but it has taken a lot of unnecessary posts......

[Kenz]

Terry,
Perhaps Ray was just being tongue-in-cheek when he described Reg as "dreadful".
After all, he was in pretty good company in regards to "drinking mates" referenced by Mr Bell; may have just been a bloke who wanted to keep a shout going!

[Ray Bell]

Indeed...

Very much tongue in cheek. And I thought Terry's question was about who he is and who the '& sons' refers to, not the 'dreadful' bit.
John Cummins, he would have heard 'dreadful' used in relation to a lot of people in the same manner.

I was actually referring to calling up Bob Muir to learn more about Reg Papps and any appropriate 'sons'.

[Grant Ellwood]

This thread is starting to sound like Monty Python's regular mentions of the mysterious Sydney Lotterby.

[bry3500]

Werner Buhrer

[Terry S]

There are many opinions on what was / is the best F5000. One way to look at it is their current relative values.

The authorative US magazine “Vintage Racecar” each month includes a table of the values for cars in different Historic Racing classes. In September last year it was the turn of F5000.
There are three levels of values based on degree of originality, Overall condition & restoration, competition history etc. They also note that their values are based on US values. “The values of historic racecars can vary by as much as 25%-35% in other countries, depending on local market appeal, currency rates and import duties”.
So the value of an Elfin will be higher in Oz than in the US for example.

The following are for top class cars and are in USD:

Chevron B24/25. . . . . . . . . 135,000
Chevron B37. . . . . . . . . . . .140,000
Elfin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .125,000
Leda LT22 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 120,000
Lola T140. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 90,000
Lola T190. . . . . . . . . . . . . .100,000
Lola T300. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
Lola T330/332. . . . . . . . . . .180,000
Lola T400 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .165,000
Lotus 70 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
March 73A. . . . . . . . . . . . . .115,000
March 74/75/76. . . . . . . . . .140,000
McLaren M10. . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
McLaren M18. . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
McLaren M22. . . . . . . . . . . . 150,000
McRae GM1 . .. . . . . . . . . . . 135,000
Surtees TS 5/8. . . . . . . . . . .115,000
Surtees TS 11. . . . . . . . . . . 125,000
Trojan T 101. . . . . . . . . . . . 115,000

Presented for interest and discussion.

[Steve Holmes]

Wow, thats really quite fascinating Terry. Thanks for posting. Interesting that the Lola T330/332 is the most valuable. I can understand why this might be, its a superb looking race car which was hugely successful in period. But I wonder also if part of the reason for its value is because in modern day historic racing its still a very fast car and hard to beat. Certainly, it'd have to be one of the more common, if not the most common of all F5000 models made? So rarity doesn't appear to play as much of a role as I'd expect.

[928]

steve,
the lola's cost more due to medical expenses to cover the famous lola limp

928

[khyndart in CA]

Having worked at Trojan during 1973 it surprises me that not only alphabetically but also in value that the Trojan T 101 is near the bottom of the list.
Only five were raced that year and between the Rothman European F5000 Championship and the North American L&M Continental F5000 Championship there were a total of 24 races.
The Trojan T 101 had 8 wins and three 2nd placing's in those races, so it was not a bad car.
Drivers such as Jody Scheckter and Bob Evans found it a car that could be thrown around with ease. Plus it had two of the best designers at the time of Ron Tauranac and Patrick Head.
I think it is a "sleeper" on that F5000 list.

(Ken Hyndman )

[John McKechnie]

ken- with your post, another $25,000 may now be added
Lola name has magic....just look at the song the Kinks bought out........................

[khyndart in CA]

John,
A "Trojan" that is driven properly can also be exciting !
( As long as there are no problems with the breaks / brakes !)


KJH

[Terry S]

Here is a nice Lola T332 for sale at USD 179,000, which is in line with Vintage Racecars valuation as above

https://vintageracecar.com/classifieds-2/show-ad/154/1974-lola-t332-formula-5000-f5000/simi-valley/california/usa/formula-cars/

[Terry S]

I'll be home in July...

Remind me then to call Bobby Muir and ask him.

Just a reminder Ray, if you are back.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, I'm back...

So I've phoned Bob Muir and this is the story of how Reg Papps came to prepare the car.

"I was going in to Royal North Shore Hospital to visit John Moxon and I saw Niel being wheeled in. We had a quick chat and he got wheeled away, then I thought, 'What's he doing with the Lola?'"

So he got in touch with Tom Floyd and did a deal to buy the wreck etc. The body had been destroyed so he ordered a new body with the blue colour impregnated in it. The bits were all there at his workshop and, while Peter Molloy was to build the engines, he had nobody to work on it.

"Reg used to do a bit of work for me, buy some cars and so on, and he suggested he could take the car to his father's service station at Mascot and prepare it." The service station operated as Reg Papps & Sons, Reg being named after his father and his brother was also there working on cars.

As Reg had previously prepared a couple of Bathurst cars and had updated the Lotus 20, Bob agreed and Reg took on the work. It was Reg's idea to put the yellow onto the car and turn it out as nicely as it was ultimately finished.

Is that enough?

[Terry S]

Yes, I'm back...

So I've phoned Bob Muir and this is the story of how Reg Papps came to prepare the car.

"I was going in to Royal North Shore Hospital to visit John Moxon and I saw Niel being wheeled in. We had a quick chat and he got wheeled away, then I thought, 'What's he doing with the Lola?'"

So he got in touch with Tom Floyd and did a deal to buy the wreck etc. The body had been destroyed so he ordered a new body with the blue colour impregnated in it. The bits were all there at his workshop and, while Peter Molloy was to build the engines, he had nobody to work on it.

"Reg used to do a bit of work for me, buy some cars and so on, and he suggested he could take the car to his father's service station at Mascot and prepare it." The service station operated as Reg Papps & Sons, Reg being named after his father and his brother was also there working on cars.

As Reg had previously prepared a couple of Bathurst cars and had updated the Lotus 20, Bob agreed and Reg took on the work. It was Reg's idea to put the yellow onto the car and turn it out as nicely as it was ultimately finished.

Is that enough?

Thanks very much Ray. That closes the loop.

As I said earlier I was intrigued for years as to where they fitted in.