New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

[Steve Holmes]

When the New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars group was formed about 4-5 years ago, it was done with with the intention to build and race period correct big-bore sedans, over 3,000cc in capacity, with a cut-off date of December 31, 1977.

In order for HMC to work, the rules couldn't be compromised. Every car on the grid had to be 100% compliant. But in order to achieve this, and be able to offer event promoters a full grid and good quality racing, HMC needed to work in conjunction with another historic racing group that bore some relation to what it was doing and where it was going. This group was a loosely formed pre-1977 combination of saloon cars and production sports cars, built to MSNZ Classic and Historic T&C or Schedule K rules.

The partnership worked well, and the racing was great, with the big-banger V8s and the nimble small capacity machines recreating the battles of old, that took place in the NZ Saloon Car Championship in the late 1960s through early 1970s.

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However, as HMC grew, so the under 3,000cc group remained largely static, with nobody stepping up to take control, and push it forward. To that end, the directors of HMC made the decision to take the under 3,000cc group under the HMC wing, and run it just as HMC is being run, in an effort to protect owners of genuine legal T&C and Schedule K cars, encourage others to build cars, or to bring these cars out of sheds and race them once more against like-minded owners with cars complying to the same regulations.

Firstly, some minor tweaks were made:

Only saloon cars are eligible (no sports cars)
An eligibility list is currently being compiled of cars that may race
A small selection of over 3,000cc cars that don't fit the HMC appearance will be accepted

This group has been named 'Historic Saloon Cars'. HSC and HMC will race together at proper historic racing events, but will be split at events where the grids are too big. It has been said the most exciting HMC races are those combined with the small capacity cars, so having HMC and HSC all run under the one umbrella, should guarantee some fantastic racing, lost of fun, and, hopefully, good steady growth in the area of period correct pre-1977 saloon car racing.

If you own, are building, or contemplating building either a historic Pre1977 T&C or Schedule K saloon, and would like to get involved with Historic Saloon Cars, please contact Bruce Dyer at: bruced105@gmail.com (bruced105@gamil.com) or Dale Mathers at: dmathers@xtra.co.nz

This thread is dedicated to all matters relating to Historic Saloon Cars.

[AMCO72]

Should be a great thread Steve. I see a glimpse of the Amco Mini in its second season colours, behind the Imp.

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks Gerald, great to see your post! This class was created for you and the AMCO Mini.

[kiwi285]

Really glad to see this happening and that the under 3 litre class will be able to compete on a level playing field too. Looking forward to seeing these cars out on track again.

[ERC]

Why only 'small selection' of over 3000cc cars? I'm sorry, but the logic of that totally escapes me. What is the criteria for that 'small selection'?

[Steve Holmes]

A lot of over 3 litre cars come under the HMC guise Ray. But there are some, such as MkI and MkII Jaguar, for example, that have a racing history but would look out of place in a muscle car grid, and whose owners would likely prefer to not be racing in a muscle car grid. Therefore, cars like these that are over 3 litre but not HMC, would be added to the eligibility list for HSC.

[AMCO72]

Could I ask who is compiling this eligibility list........for all the cars......up to, and over 3 litres. I see it is being compiled as we speak! Is a saloon car a 4/5 seater, or are 2 seaters with occasional back seats included. They obviously have to have a permanent roof, but there are plenty of 'sports cars' with non detatchable roofs......mmmmmmm......could be interesting.

[Steve Holmes]

Hi Gerald, Bruce Dyer and Bill Ritchie have taken on the role of doing this. Both are keen owners/racers of under 3 litre saloon cars. The list is not set in stone, just as the HMC eligibility list is not. New cars can be added at any time if there is something an owner wishes to race. And yes, 4/5 seater cars, with emphasis on makes/models with a period competition history. Essentially, nothing will change much at all to what has already been taking place with this group, its really just about tying up loose ends.

[AMCO72]

So if it is for pre 1977 correct cars, there will be no Datsuns, Mazdas, Toyotas, Hondas, Izuzus, etc etc. I dont think there were any of these racing in NZ pre 1977. So if there werent any racing, you cant construct a period correct car now, as there is/was nothing to base your construction on.....yes, no ????????? Sorry, but we need to get a few things sorted before lists are drawn up, to forestall endless arguments.I am very nervous of one or two people playing Big Daddy, waving the big stick and deciding exactly who,and what is going to compete.....some ideas from the wider competitor base might be useful. In other words lets have a list drawn up then ask for additions or subtractions. Is not quite as easy as HMC which has a fairly narrow band of eligible cars.

[Steve Holmes]

Its viewed on more of a worldwide basis than just an NZ basis, so yes, Japanese cars are indeed eligible. The reason for the eligibility list is not so much about playing God, but more so to protect the investments of those taking part. And, its not set in stone. Its easier to deal with a set of fundamentals when you know what you're playing with, than trying to plan for the unkown.

And the two people who've drawn up the list didn't do so with the intent to control who plays and who doesn't. They've merely done it because they have a vast knowledge of the various makes and models of smaller capacity cars that raced in period than the HMC directors.

It is a big list, and its unlikely there will be any surprises.

[Spgeti]

Hi Gerald, thanks for your input and this is what the HSC Thread is about. Saloon cars produced prior to December 1977 will be considered and yes that includes Datsun's, Toyota's, Mazda's, Honda's and Izuzu's etc even if they did not race in NZ but else where in the world. No two people are going to wave the big stick and no the list is not being constructed as we speak. I took this on to help Dale and Steve because as a motorsport historic group we need to move forward and tidy this up or like the Pre 61 group that Oldfart is working on the longer we leave it the harder it gets and the cars will disappear.
I have been working on this since February this year and with Bill's help along with Dale and Steve we have an open mind. It is not an easy list to compile but we do have an open door view but will be subject to review and what was homaglated as a saloon will stand and what is a sports car will be a sports car. HMC is also not so simple. Cheers, Bruce

[AMCO72]

OK all good. Sorry to ask so many questions, but it might stir others into action.

The next thing is tyres ????????? Period correct, these cars were on slicks. Certainly all the 70's cars were. What does the 'brains trust' think on that subject. We all have to buy tyres of some sort, so cost differences dont really come into it. I presume the cars will not need to be WOF standard. Cars like the Amco Mini ran on them exclusively for 2 seasons. Collingwood was on such a tight budget that he only had one set for the whole season. He was lucky that the 970 was fairly easy on rubber. Tyre selection for 10 inch Mini rims is very limited, unlike the larger wheel sizes, where there is a much bigger demand.

[Spgeti]

That's all ok Gerald.

That is a very good question and needs further discussion as the AMCO Mini is an historic car that ran in period. I would like to leave this open at this stage for the others to comment on. I respect the problem with the 10 inch rim as my Elf is the same and while not a period car like your did run on slicks in the late 80's.

Cheers,

[Kiwiboss]

Nothing needs to be changed, just apply the current MSNZ tyre regulations under Appendix Six, Historic Competition, Section Five - Schedule T&C 3.13 – Tires.

Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand, or period and
tread pattern correct, bias cross-ply tyres (refer note) may be used.
(ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of
the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect
ratio is restricted to 50% minimum. The use of semi-slick tyres with
only radial grooves is specifically prohibited.
Note: An example is Dunlop CR65 brand tyres

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/default/files/motorsport/manual/Live%2035%20App%206.05%20Sch%20T%26C_0.pdf

Dale M

[Howard Wood]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

[ERC]

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.
Totally agree. It isn't a level playing field anyway, so smaller cars that were run on period slicks makes a lot of sense. We had trouble with JayDees Halliday Escort getting appropriate tyres, so we gave a dispensation to allow it to run on slicks, as it is a period historic car and not a modern build where the owner is seeking to maximise performance. Now it has a more suitable class in which to run, 'our problem' goes away - which is what we usually envisage when we make a pragmatic ruling.

However, JayDee is always welcome, regardless!

[AMCO72]

Thank you Howard and ERC........my thoughts as well. I have crossed swords with a number of people on this matter of tyres.....as Dale will confirm. HSC is a different class altogether, and I HOPE that the co-ordinators will give this question due consideration. ......

[cooper64]

Thank you Howard and ERC........my thoughts as well. I have crossed swords with a number of people on this matter of tyres.....as Dale will confirm. HSC is a different class altogether, and I HOPE that the co-ordinators will this question due consideration. ......and I can promise I am not going to 'go away' !!!!!!!!

would a replica of a 1970 British race mini built from a 1980 mini body shell be allowed to race in the under 3000cc class on slicks ,car was built in 1998 and runs as a miglia class in the super mini challenge

[Spgeti]

would a replica of a 1970 British race mini built from a 1980 mini body shell be allowed to race in the under 3000cc class on slicks ,car was built in 1998 and runs as a miglia class in the super mini challenge

Cooper64, as post #1, please send myself or Dale an email at the above addresses. All cars must have a COD as per Schedule K or T&C.

bruced105@gmail.com

Cheers, Bruce

[Limezed]

Just a thought for those wiser than me.

So what's available for the Production Grand Touring "GT" cars? Not the sports cars that keep being referred to, but the GT cars as defined by FIA or production class B/C for the Americans. The period correct 2 seater E Types, Corvettes, 240Z's, TR's etc.

In a country where we have a limited pool of period correct cars I would have thought we would be encouraging as many of these to be out there as possible. Not forcing these ones to be moth balled in sheds.

One could argue that these cars need their own grid. But that simply serves to dilute the grids of the classes that they could easily fit in (better fit than in a "sports car" grid).

Would be a shame to see them go. But hey the cars the star right?

[ERC]

ERC Series.... Copes well enough with all sports and GTs and we have or had examples of all those mentioned!

Stewart has parked the E Type in favour of something that is at least different; Tony R was welcomed with the Corvette at a time when there was no other suitable class; we still have 240Zs; over the years we have had TR3 (Bert Dove), several TR6's and a TR5 - plus Spitfires and still have TR7 V8s, so those that want to run, can and do.

Adding extra classes to suit a minority will never work until that minority is large enough to be a viable grid in its own right. My sympathy is with those with smaller open sports cars who feel intimidated when sharing the track with large saloons, but as at today, sports cars are a minority, which just reflects the sales over the years - and the increasing values of those Daimlers, Austin Healeys, Morgans, Lotus' etc.

Production GT has always been a bone of contention in some quarters, so an MG B Sports and an MG BGT from the same production line is acceptable, but a 240Z Datsun with no open version has always been cast as an oddball. Jaguar XJS ran in period as saloon cars yet to most of us, they should surely be classed as a GT or as an open sports?

We shouldn't get too hung up on names and categories and we learned years ago (not with 100% acceptance I might add) that speed grouping by car/driver made far more sense than bodyshell type. For example, this enabled AMCO Senior to race in one category and AMCO Junior in another! Both grids were therefore enhanced.

Classic Trial still offer the opportunity to put totally standard cars out on track, but even their numbers seem to have flattened out, so there are opportunities for just about everyone to run, if they choose to do so.

Advancing age of drivers and rising costs may also have an effect. Why no Seniors discount on a race licence? A high licence cost and a $50 levy to MSNZ at each meeting are rapidly pushing me to race retirement, as I can get almost as much fun on a track day for a fraction of the cost - and no red tape.

[crunch]

Nothing needs to be changed, just apply the current MSNZ tyre regulations under Appendix Six, Historic Competition, Section Five - Schedule T&C 3.13 – Tires.

Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand, or period and
tread pattern correct, bias cross-ply tyres (refer note) may be used.
(ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of
the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect
ratio is restricted to 50% minimum. The use of semi-slick tyres with
only radial grooves is specifically prohibited.
Note: An example is Dunlop CR65 brand tyres

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/default/files/motorsport/manual/Live%2035%20App%206.05%20Sch%20T%26C_0.pdf

Dale M

Agree:o

[AMCO72]

Your last paragraph ERC hits the nail on the head as far as I am concerned also. Getting old and buggered isnt encouraging me out any more, but a track day is good.......no pressure.....go out and do some skids at your speed without all these hot-shots showing how bad you are in a racing situation. Am all for it.

I would have thought that Classic Trial would have suited a lot of people.......apparently not. One step up from a track day......'if they choose to do so'......how true !!

[crunch]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

Agree as well !

[crunch]

I would have thought that Classic Trial would have suited a lot of people.......apparently not. One step up from a track day......'if they choose to do so'......how true !!

I would have thought so too. It's sad that people don't actually take this opportunity, maybe it's because it's not understood clearly?

[AMCO72]

Dont think Dunlop make a CR65 tyre for a 10inch rim any more. They even stopped manufacture of a 10 inch slick, but this may have started again.....

[Spgeti]

Gerald,
I am at the moment discussing tyres with Cardwells. Hoosier make a Vintage Bias Treaded Tyre for historic racing in a 165/70x10 and is what the Historic Minis race on in Aussie. This is not a slick.

I will come back re this once I have answers.

Cheers

[Spgeti]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Howard.

I plan to come up to Ice Breaker to meet a few of you and perhaps drag Bill up with me.

Cheers

Bruce

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

You've absolutely hit the nail on the head Howard.

As for tyres, its actually very simple. Dale quoted the tyre ruling in Post #14; either a road legal DOT radial, or a period correct bias ply treaded tyre:

Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand, or period and
tread pattern correct, bias cross-ply tyres (refer note) may be used.
(ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of
the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect
ratio is restricted to 50% minimum. The use of semi-slick tyres with
only radial grooves is specifically prohibited.
Note: An example is Dunlop CR65 brand tyres

There is actually a massive availability on sizes available in the bias-ply, for everything from Minis right through to the HMC V8s. Hoosier cover most bases. This is because historic racing is so huge internationally, so most makes and models of cars that HMC/HSC covers are catered for. Cardwell Racing Supplies can get almost everything required, and the prices are very reasonable. The only issues so far have been for cars such as John Dennehey's Halliday Escort, with its very wide 13" diameter wheels. John had Roger Kraus Racing in the US groove a set for the Escort.

[AMCO72]

OK, so can someone please give me a sensible answer to the question........'why no slicks'. These are racing cars we are talking about....not road cars. None of them are driven to and from the circuit, except perhaps the Classic Trial cars. .....and they dont need a WOF, so why do they need to be to a WOF standard.

[Steve Holmes]

OK, lots of good quality discussion here, lets keep it up. There have been several questions regarding tyres. As stated above, the HMC and HSC tyre options are either a road legal DOT radial, or treaded bias-ply racing tyre. The reason for this is to give people options, and really, there is no performance advantage between one or the other.

In regards to slicks, these are not acceptable for either HMC or HSC. It should be noted that MSNZ T&C and Schedule K rules for pre-1977 historic saloon cars only list road legal DOT or treaded bias-ply tyres in their rules. These are the rules both HMC and HSC are built on. HSC rules allows people to race either a T&C or Schedule K car, under MSNZ rules.

In period, during the late 1960s through early 1970s, ALL race cars, whether they were open wheels or saloons, were fitted with treaded bias-ply racing tyres. These are essentially the exact same tyres as written into the MSNZ/HMC/HSC rules. Several companies produce these, including Hoosier, Goodyear and Avon. They're a period correct treaded bias-ply, as used on all race cars in the late 1960s through early 1970s.

There were no slick tyres being produced at this time. In fact, slick tyres didn't really begin appearing until around 1973. But, these were a bias-ply slick, NOT a radial slick, and there is a HUGE difference between the two.

For the sake of keeping things simple, keeping everyone in the same playing field, keeping within the rules as set down by MSNZ under T&C and Schedule K for pre-1977 historic saloons, HMC and HSC only allows the use of road legal DOT radials, or treaded bias-ply tyres. Essentially, HMC is about racing period correct cars on period correct tyres.

And remember, this isn't some crazy New Zealand rule, this is how historic racing deals with the tyre situation all over the world.

Here are some nice period examples:

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[Steve Holmes]

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[Steve Holmes]

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[AMCO72]

Steve, as ususal, a well researched and sensible answer. Thank you very much. Right, now I/we can move on to other aspects of HSC......I am sure Dale and Co will be relieved.

I will just go and have a cup of tea, while I think up more stuff to post !!!!!!!

[Jac Mac]

First 'Slicks' I remember seeing on larger cars was Wigram January 1973 when Moffats GTHO used them in the final BNSW race of the day and won which would suggest that he also had used them in OZ in 1972. Did not take long for the other E49's to get slicks for similar races from then on. Tullochs Camaro had Goodyear slicks from day one, but I think they all had to revert to CR65 Dunlops for one other series ( Same as those on Camaro above ). Ex Sprague- Monaghan- Gillard XW GTHO was fitted with Globes & Slicks in 73/74 IIRC.

[Steve Holmes]

First 'Slicks' I remember seeing on larger cars was Wigram January 1973 when Moffats GTHO used them in the final BNSW race of the day and won which would suggest that he also had used them in OZ in 1972. Did not take long for the other E49's to get slicks for similar races from then on. Tullochs Camaro had Goodyear slicks from day one, but I think they all had to revert to CR65 Dunlops for one other series ( Same as those on Camaro above ). Ex Sprague- Monaghan- Gillard XW GTHO was fitted with Globes & Slicks in 73/74 IIRC.

Thanks Jac, this here is the earliest photo I have managed to find of a car on what appears to be slick tyres. This is from 1973, which coincides with what you said about Moffats GTHO. However, I can't say with 100% certainty if these really are slicks, or just treaded tyres that have worn down?

30101

[Steve Holmes]

Steve, as ususal, a well researched and sensible answer. Thank you very much. Right, now I/we can move on to other aspects of HSC......I am sure Dale and Co will be relieved.

I will just go and have a cup of tea, while I think up more stuff to post !!!!!!!

Thanks Gerald.

[GD66]

I can't say with 100% certainty if these really are slicks, or just treaded tyres that have worn down




Rod G would probably know, as they appear to be Firestones and he was working for them in those days I think.

[Spgeti]

First 'Slicks' I remember seeing on larger cars was Wigram January 1973 when Moffats GTHO used them in the final BNSW race of the day and won which would suggest that he also had used them in OZ in 1972. Did not take long for the other E49's to get slicks for similar races from then on. Tullochs Camaro had Goodyear slicks from day one, but I think they all had to revert to CR65 Dunlops for one other series ( Same as those on Camaro above ). Ex Sprague- Monaghan- Gillard XW GTHO was fitted with Globes & Slicks in 73/74 IIRC.

Inky's Camaro appeared at the 1975 GP meeting at Puke. I have a photo of the next meeting at Bay Park and it had slicks on.

[Rod Grimwood]

Rod G would probably know, as they appear to be Firestones and he was working for them in those days I think.

They are Firestone on The Mustang

[GD66]

Yeah, good Rodders :cool:

The question was, are they slicks, or treaded tyres that are worn down ?

[Kiwiboss]

Thanks Jac, this here is the earliest photo I have managed to find of a car on what appears to be slick tyres. This is from 1973, which coincides with what you said about Moffats GTHO. However, I can't say with 100% certainty if these really are slicks, or just treaded tyres that have worn down?

30101

Pretty much from about 73/4 onwards(as per JR's Sidchrome Mustang) when Saloons started raced under Schedule E(basically IMSA or Sports Sedans) they went to the wide 14inch rims mostly from F5000 cars hence used whatever tyres the F5000's raced on, im pretty sure they were still treaded? and certainly no radial slicks! also I can remember my Dad sending away worn out wide tires and getting them re-treaded as a slick, the speedway guys done the same except they grooved them, from memory as a kid new wide race tyres were considerably expensive and hard to come by in the day(true Jacmac?).

[AMCO72]

The Minis were obviously able to get slick tyres earlier,
as Collingwood had them for the first, 70/71, and the second season 71/72.

[Steve Holmes]

Pretty much from about 73/4 onwards(as per JR's Sidchrome Mustang) when Saloons started raced under Schedule E(basically IMSA or Sports Sedans) they went to the wide 14inch rims mostly from F5000 cars hence used whatever tyres the F5000's raced on, im pretty sure they were still treaded? and certainly no radial slicks! also I can remember my Dad sending away worn out wide tires and getting them re-treaded as a slick, the speedway guys done the same except they grooved them, from memory as a kid new wide race tyres were considerably expensive and hard to come by in the day(true Jacmac?).

Yep, thats pretty much it Dale. In fact, Formula 5000 cars were running on treaded bias-ply tyres until the early 1970s, its really all there was, and Formula 1 cars would have been the same. When tyre technology proved that a tyre with no tread provided better grip than one WITH tread, all racing tyres pretty much fell into line, be they for single seaters or sedans. It was really just because of the tyre wars taking place, that manufacturers were constantly looking to improve grip.

Here is Graham McRae's McLaren F5000 on Goodyear Bluestreak tyres, the same as the HMC cars, Historic Trans-Am in the US, etc run now!

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[Jac Mac]

When I first built the MKII Cortina OSCA car I used rear ( slick ) 15 x 12.5 w from George Beggs F5000 cars ` $30-$50 ea IIRC and some much older 15x 10 intermediates ( Dunlop) from one of the older cars on the front. Was just reading an old tire article that mentioned slicks making inroads to circuit motorsport from 1969 onwards.... gotta remember that saloons took a while for everyone to realise that a wider tire needed a geometry rethink to keep the tread square to the surface for any older stuff. Tires were harder to get, Graeme Lawrence had the Goodyear franchise tied up. Expensive, yes, had to order in advance etc until the import thing freed up.
The slick retreads were crap, tried some at Coronet Peak Hillclimb once, black marks everywhere but bugger all acceleration. Put the GN Begg budget specials back on and went much faster. Biggest worry was finding loose gravel from previous rally guys who have no respect for road width!

Extra, Slick tires were first used by Nascar @ Talledaga in 1969.

[Steve Holmes]

Just a thought for those wiser than me.

So what's available for the Production Grand Touring "GT" cars? Not the sports cars that keep being referred to, but the GT cars as defined by FIA or production class B/C for the Americans. The period correct 2 seater E Types, Corvettes, 240Z's, TR's etc.

In a country where we have a limited pool of period correct cars I would have thought we would be encouraging as many of these to be out there as possible. Not forcing these ones to be moth balled in sheds.

One could argue that these cars need their own grid. But that simply serves to dilute the grids of the classes that they could easily fit in (better fit than in a "sports car" grid).

Would be a shame to see them go. But hey the cars the star right?

Yep, you're right, something similar needs to be done for GT and production sports cars. But who will step up? The same set of MSNZ T&C or Schedule K rules could be used, and undoubtedly the cars would come.

[Howard Wood]

OK, so can someone please give me a sensible answer to the question........'why no slicks'. These are racing cars we are talking about....not road cars. None of them are driven to and from the circuit, except perhaps the Classic Trial cars. .....and they dont need a WOF, so why do they need to be to a WOF standard.

There are plenty of period correct classes which allow a slick tyre, for example the Heritage Touring car class at the festival allow slicks because that is what those cars ran in period. Certainly there are plenty of HSC compliant cars which would have run slicks in period as well. Don't forget the proposed HSC cut off is long after the HMC cut off and well into the slick use era. I think it is something that should be considered, not dismissed because HMC don't run slicks.

[ERC]

Steve, after a challenge put out by the H & C Commission a few years back, regarding the T & C Regs, Chris Browne from Alfa Trofeo and myself went through those regs with a very, very fine toothcomb and suggested various changes which we sincerely believed would encompass 95% of those running cars most of us deem classic, probably without modification and the other 5% may not be too far out either.

Our summary was that T & C had to be sufficiently different from Appendix K & Schedule K to warrant its very existence. The commission did adopt one or two suggestions but overall, the points of issue we had then and still have even now, have not been satisfactorily addressed, as there are obvious philosophical differences on several aspects.

Believing that T & C is somehow the panacea for all decisions and guidelines and is set in stone, is the very reason why so many people do not buy into it and therefore do not accept the validity, or the necessity, for a CoD in its present form, despite the mantra pushed out so often by those who either do not understand some of the issues, or choose to ignore them.

We are going over very old ground here and there are about 200+ drivers locally who are accepted into various 'classic' groups who do NOT have a CoD and will not get one. They are NOT running hot rods but nor are they all 100% T & C compliant, though most are - and whilst the Commission fails to recognise those differences and the real practicalities of running some models, then nothing much will change.

A CoD is still seen as an exclusion mechanism by many - rightly or wrongly, but if anyone really thinks that jumping through the expensive hoops to get one is somehow going to actually add value to a bog standard MGB, Alfa Sud, or E Series BMW, then I am sorry, but they are dreaming.

Thankfully, most regular and successful promoters (eventually) saw the holes in the CoD system and have categorically stated that those non-compliant classes will always be welcomed. Others will accept them at specific meetings only and others demand 100% CoD's. It is a matter of commercial choice for a promoter and with local track costs to run a race meeting at about $12,000, then the harsh commercial realty hits hard, a fact that some still seem to ignore, expecting others to finance their race entry fees. Maybe if promoters sold their grids for a fixed price, some attitudes would change very quickly!

Our stance when we went through was that T & C should be a broad set of rules or guidelines whereby specific groups (such as HMC) could adopt TIGHTER rules if they so desired. Specialised one make groups such as Alfa Trofeo are the real experts in running Alfa's and understand all the issues relating to keeping them running and racing, ditto MG and BMW. Whereas BMW seem to have stepped well outside the true classic mould with some of their cars, there are still plenty of their cars that we would still deem classic - yet they may not conform to the current T & C either.

[Spgeti]

There are plenty of period correct classes which allow a slick tyre, for example the Heritage Touring car class at the festival allow slicks because that is what those cars ran in period. Certainly there are plenty of HSC compliant cars which would have run slicks in period as well. Don't forget the proposed HSC cut off is long after the HMC cut off and well into the slick use era. I think it is something that should be considered, not dismissed because HMC don't run slicks.

I am sorry Howard but Steve's post #31 clarified HSC stance regarding slicks. He summed up the history behind the reasons why. What applies to Group C and A Touring cars does not apply to HSC...different era. Have a look at the overseas historic racing of the era we cover and they all run tyres that are either Treaded Bias Ply or DOT rated radial tyres.

It is time to bring Historic Saloon Racing in this country to match the rest of the world.

The HMC car cut off is 1974 and 3 years difference is seriously not a reason to alter.

The MSNZ defines the cut off dates for what we propose in HSC and we want to work with in those dates.

[Howard Wood]

I am sorry Howard but Steve's post #31 clarified HSC stance regarding slicks. He summed up the history behind the reasons why. What applies to Group C and A Touring cars does not apply to HSC...different era. Have a look at the overseas historic racing of the era we cover and they all run tyres that are either Treaded Bias Ply or DOT rated radial tyres.

It is time to bring Historic Saloon Racing in this country to match the rest of the world.

The HMC car cut off is 1974 and 3 years difference is seriously not a reason to alter.

The MSNZ defines the cut off dates for what we propose in HSC and we want to work with in those dates.

And if that is the regulation, no problem. My point (and Gerald's too I think) was that we should consider the options first rather than just blindly follow other classes regulation. Having set the regulation, the class must enforce it along with the CoD compliance etc or we are back to the Hot Rod situation again. There is a good 1.5 to 2 seconds a lap difference between genuine DoT tyres and either slicks or quasi slicks like the Handcooks.

[AMCO72]

Absolutely my point also Howard. I have been beating my head against a brick wall over this subject of tyres for years as you know. I am only speaking for the Amco mini here, but it was on slicks exclusively for its 2 seasons in 1971/1972, and we have put this to organisers at other events....Manfield, Ruapuna, Teretonga and Highlands Park, and have got dispensation to run on slicks at those meetings.

This is a new class and in my view we dont HAVE to be following other classes slavishly. Now is the time to step back, take a look at what is at stake and perhaps do something about it. We are well into the slick period with these machines and if a cars suspension was designed for them so be it.

[Steve Holmes]

As already said, the HSC rules are based on MSNZ T&C and Schedule K. Nothing else. There are already many cars in NZ built to these rules. The MSNZ rules stipulate:

Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand, or period and
tread pattern correct, bias cross-ply tyres (refer note) may be used.
(ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of
the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect
ratio is restricted to 50% minimum. The use of semi-slick tyres with
only radial grooves is specifically prohibited.
Note: An example is Dunlop CR65 brand tyres

Really, there is nothing to be gained for the class as a whole to allow either one car, or the entire field, on slick tyres. Although slick tyre technology did begin to arrive within the period HSC has been structured under (pre December 31 1977), the vast majority of these types of cars raced on treaded tyres. When there is ample availability of both DOT radials and treaded bias-ply tyres, why have slicks? It really comes down to wanting a performance gain. If the whole field is on slicks, it negates any performance gain. But, why bother? Slick tyres create extra grip, which then puts greater stress through the drivelines. This is turn creates more unreliability. And for what? Also, slicks have a shorter performance lifespan than treaded tyres, so replacements are required more often, thus increasing costs.

Remember, this is only historic car racing.

Gerald, the photo here shows that sometimes your AMCO Mini did race on treaded tyres. Also, when you say you want to race it on slicks because this is what it raced on in period, I'm guessing you want to race on radial slicks, and not bias-ply slicks? I can virtually guarantee your car didn't race on radial slicks in period. It would have been bias-ply slicks. The technology between the two are quite different, and indeed, a Hoosier treaded bias-ply would be closer in technology to what your car raced on in period than a modern radial slick.

30103

Remember, HSC is never going to be all things for all people. It'll either appeal or it won't. The great thing about New Zealand is that there are so many different classes to choose from. This class only creates a haven for those wanting to build and race T&C and Schedule K cars under MSNZ historic rules. I know I don't speak for everyone here, and people go historic car racing for different reasons. But for many, the appeal in racing a 45 year old car is that it looks, feels, and handles like a 45 year old car.

[ERC]

What you are clearly advocating is 'Historic' racing. No problem.

Where we have fallen down here is a set of rules purporting to be 'Thoroughbred & Classic' - T & C, which is something similar and the main issue which has never been addressed, right from day one, is a literal definition.

We can mix Classic, Thoroughbred and Historic on the track, but the definitions have never been quantified. In fact, I think that you'll find (or when I last bothered looking) that there is absolutely no mention whatever of Thoroughbred in those regulations.

So let's please, stand back and sort out a set of rules and a CoD system that was primarily aimed at Historic Cars, to confirm a NZ provenance and therefore add value, and to offer a playground that was indeed representative of an earlier era.

Don't confuse that with a set of rules for Classic cars, often of a much lower value, where replicas (Cooper S, Lotus Cortina, TR7 V8, MG BV8, Capri Perana) are welcomed and encouraged and the rules are a little bit more realistic in enabling these cars to run. They may have been constructed recently, out of age related major components but they have no history, other than the one they are creating, year by year.

Add Thoroughbred, where the make is enough to bestow this title - Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin, Porsche etc. and we might be making progress.

But please, all have a place in the sport and any series will develop to cater for those needs so if a series organisation elects to include or exclude a specific sector, that is up to them. Some people seem so strangled with rules and regulations and eligibility that they defeat their own objects. A car is either pre 1977 or it isn't. If it is built to represent a 1977 car, different issue. If it is a 1992 Thoroughbred, so be it.

[AMCO72]

I think some mischieveous person has photoshopped my tyres !!!!!!!:) :)

Seriously, it may be 'only Historic racing', but it is a race track we are competing on, and NO ONE wants to tour round at the back of the field. If for example, we were just out there having fun, which most of us are, there are cars in the HMC grid whos owners seem hell bent on cranking more and more horsepower out of them.......WHY....HP costs $$$$$$$ Perhaps it is to keep up with, and beat the pesky Australians, and if this is the case I say go for it !!!!! Theyre all, or most of them seem to be falling into this trap. And the 400hp cars are not the ones going over to Oz to compete.

A couple of Festivals ago I had a chat with one or two of the tail-end Charlies in the HMC races, and they all expressed amazement at how fast the front runners were compared to them with their miserable 400hp. needless to say some of these racers have never appeared again.......it is all just too hard. What I am saying is that I am sick and tired of drivers spouting the old story......the cars are the stars....yes....but so is the ego of some drivers, where being on the podium is very important. I dont have a problem with performance enhancing tricks, but please dont pretend otherwise.

Now I know that I am going to get shot down here, but I dont care. I know what I have seen and heard and I am sticking to my story.What has this got to do with this thread.......it is that it is 'only historic racing'....yes, but it is as competitive as any sport, maybe more so, and drivers are always looking for an advantage no matter how small. And if you dont think it is competitive, I suggest you get in a car and try for yourself.......I think you will be amazed.

By the way.......going back to the Amco Mini tyres. I am not sure what these are. A 10 inch CR65 has a much narrower tread than this.....could they be a slick with some radial grooves in them ?? I will ask Rod when I next see him.

[GPBK]

By the way.......going back to the Amco Mini tyres. I am not sure what these are. A CR65 has a much narrower tread than this.....could they be a slick with some radial grooves in them ?? I will ask Rod when I next see him.[/QUOTE]

[AMCO72]

Very good. I would like to see a comparison with a 10 inch Dunlop slick. What size wheels are these for. Is just the small one a 10 inch.

[GPBK]

This is only a reference guide for Dunlop Tread patterns of the day. I know that the 65 and 81 patterns were available for the 10" but outside of that I'm guessing.

[AMCO72]

No doubt about it. The CR65 tread on the Mini was great. Had a half worn set on the car when we bought it in 1984, and even though they were old and hard were still streets ahead of the current stock of DOT radials.

[Howard Wood]

No doubt about it. The CR65 tread on the Mini was great. Had a half worn set on the car when we bought it in 1984, and even though they were old and hard were still streets ahead of the current stock of DOT radials.

There are 3 reasons why I think this issue should be considered, discussed then once decided we can all leave it alone:

1. Anyone leaning really hard on DoT tyres will tell you that tyre life/ temperature is an issue. An issue made worse by small tyre/ wheel size (eg AMCO Mini), high horsepower (ask any front runners in the BMW Class B) and high temperatures. I have cut out a brand new set of 4 DoT tyres in one January Taupo meeting (3 races).

2. These cars DID run on slicks both here in the BNSW series etc and also Group 2 ETCC. Getting a comparable DoT tyre size can actually be quite hard as witnessed by the Haliday Escort and AMCO Mini (especially in 10 inch).

3. There is an opportunity to equalize the lap times of the HMC/ HSC field which will only add to the spectator appeal of these classes. For those HMC drivers who do not want the "Star" quality of their cars to be diminished, the finish line is always at the end of the straight anyway!

Before anyone assumes that this argument is about personal advantage, unless my current plans fall over, I will not be running in the class for the immediate future.

[Paul Wilkinson]

No doubt about it. The CR65 tread on the Mini was great. Had a half worn set on the car when we bought it in 1984, and even though they were old and hard were still streets ahead of the current stock of DOT radials.

Of course, they're still available but bloody expensive!

[ERC]

Spot on Howard. Something that is 100% period and also reduces the out and out horsepower advantage of the monsters, has to make sense - but maybe some of those with the current big horsepower advantage don't really want equalisation? Once again, is it a case of maybe denying spectators a potential giant killing act?

I'm stirring here, but observations over the last few years have made me a little more cynical than I once was - and I am not just talking about this class either.

[Steve Holmes]

Actually, Ray, your argument for slick tyres being 100% period is incorrect, because in period, of the very, very few cars that did actually run slicks, they were bias-ply slicks. I'm quite certain those wanting to run slick tyres in HSC are wanting radial slicks. Thats a whole different ball game, not period correct, not likened to what was being used in period. Its modern tyre technology versus old tyre technology.

Consider this: The HMC and HSC cars are all of the same era. If you allow HSC cars to use slick tyres, you also have to allow the HMC cars slicks. Who do you think is going to have the greatest advantage in this situation? Do you think a 600hp car with masses of grip won't just disappear up the road? Currently, its the tyre situation that keeps the HSC cars as close as they are to the HMC cars, as the HMC cars massively lack grip.

Remember also, although HMC has taken over the running of HSC, these are still two separate entities. At events where car numbers exceed that of one grid, the two will be separated into two races. To have some HSC cars on slicks will actually only spread the HSC field.

As I've said, this group is not for everyone, and there are plenty of places to go race for those who want to use slick tyres, including the ERC series, Historic Sports Sedans etc. ERC use a handicapping system to keep the racing close, and to limit the advantage the slick shod cars have. This is obviously a good system that allows people to race what they like, with the handicapping being the limiting factor.

But, different classes are always going to have different appealing aspects. The fact slick tyres are not allowed in HSC will appeal to some, and not others.

[Spgeti]

I have done a bit of research today regarding Dunlop CR65's verses Dunlop CR81's.

CR81's are a Bias Treaded Intermediate Tyre suitable for the mini to run a 5.5 inch rim and has not been produced for many years. I don't believe the Mini's ran on slicks but these tyres in the years that Gerald has stated and Steve's photo shopped photo adds weight to my conclusion as they look very similar.

CR65's are still produced today with modern technology in rubber and along with the Avon equivalent is what Historic racing Mini's use in Europe. These are suitable for a 4.5 inch rim.

Hoosier H Treaded Vintage 165/70x10s are suitable for a 5.5 inch rim and that is why it is used in the USA and Australia.

These are what we suggest Mini racers in HSC use.

[AMCO72]

So, thats it is it......the discussion has been had. Well I have no doubt it will please some folk. Now, where did I put those knitting needles!!!!!!!!!! :) :)

[Jac Mac]

Depends on what you call a slick.. http://www.stuckey.com.au/evolution.aspx... guess that means the HMC cars are already on slicks after all.....

[Spgeti]

Thanks Jac Mac. A really good read.....Cheers

[Howard Wood]

Consider this: The HMC and HSC cars are all of the same era. If you allow HSC cars to use slick tyres, you also have to allow the HMC cars slicks.

Really Steve??? There are any number of areas of divergence in the HMC regs and Schedule K which is one of the primary standards for the proposed HSC regs. For example under Sched K, if homologated for a particular car it is perfectly acceptable to run fibreglass panels and big wheel arches, a modification strictly prohibited under HMC. Even the 15inch wheel regulation which is central to HMC is not enshrined in Sched K. There is absolutely no reason to mirror everything that applies to HMC in the HSC regs.

What we have is an opportunity to formulate a set of regulations that best represent the style of car to which they apply.

[ERC]

Once again, totally agree Howard. As I put in my waffle earlier, series organisers have every right to either tighten or loosen T & C guidelines (because that is all they are to us) as it suits them.

If the T & C regs were strictly applied, and are set in stone, why does HMC need any additional regs at all, other than maybe an eligibility list as to what constitutes a Muscle car? Or, why not just run to Appendix K? (And good luck with that one...)

All this discussion shows is that series organisers are dipping into T & C when it suits them and ignoring it when it doesn't, so at best, it can only be referred to as 'Guidelines' and at worst, it is totally ignored. That is why the CoD system is a case of pushing water uphill in some sectors and has not gained full acceptance. MSNZ are happy to take your money to get a sheet of paper (or several sheets of paper) but if it reverted to being mandatory, classic racing as we know it would simply shift to non-classic defined meetings. Pity so many people can't see it.

By all means, identify and preserve and encourage the genuinely Historic, but that is a relatively small percentage of those who supposedly come under the broader Thoroughbred & Classic umbrella.

[Howard Wood]

Just to be perfectly clear here, I am in no way criticising the HMC class or its regulations, their regs are a pragmatic and successful set of class rules. Likewise I am fully in support of the idea of promoting a viable Historic Saloon class to foster and encourage period correct cars, both genuine cars with history and new builds like my BMW 2002.

At the risk of boring everyone else to death over endless circular arguments, I merely want to make sure the set of regulations are the best we can make them. Having settled on those regulations we then all need to Shut the F*#@ Up and get on with supporting and promoting the class.

[Spgeti]

Just to be perfectly clear here, I am in no way criticising the HMC class or its regulations, their regs are a pragmatic and successful set of class rules. Likewise I am fully in support of the idea of promoting a viable Historic Saloon class to foster and encourage period correct cars, both genuine cars with history and new builds like my BMW 2002.

At the risk of boring everyone else to death over endless circular arguments, I merely want to make sure the set of regulations are the best we can make them. Having settled on those regulations we then all need to Shut the F*#@ Up and get on with supporting and promoting the class.

I hear you loud and clear Howard.

We will get there with help from the likes of yourself who has invested in a very nice car which is a credit to your passion and commitment.

Cheers

Bruce

[Steve Holmes]

Bloody hell, I’m beginning to see why nobody wanted to take this on. Everyone avoids stepping up to the plate, they’re all too busy, with too many other commitments etc, but then when someone finally does, everyone else jumps on them and tells them they’ve f%@&ed up, and they should be doing it differently! Yikes! What a mine-field.

Anyway, here are some historical facts. Following the 1967 NZ Saloon Car Championship, MSNZ dropped the Allcomer rules in favor of FIA Group 5 rules. Group 5 were being used elsewhere in the world, including the British Saloon Car Championship, European Touring Car Championship, and various European domestic touring car championships. Australia were using what they called Improved Production rules, which, as far as I can tell, where very similar to FIA Group 5 up until 1970, when they began adjusting the rules to suit.

For 1970, the BSCC, ETCC, and other European championships switched to Group 2 rules, which allowed a few more freedoms than those of Group 5. In NZ, we continued with Group 5 until around 1973, when we switched to a set of locally concocted rules called Schedule E. These rules were almost like the old Allcomer rules, in that you could stick a Chev V8 in an Escort, or a Victor, etc. Initially, not much changed, the Group 5 cars continued to set the pace under Schedule E, but over time, it was with these rules cars such as Jack Nazers Victor Chevy, Red Dawsons DeKon Monza, the PDL II Mustang etc all raced. These rules ultimately brought about the demise of big bore sedan racing in the NZ Saloon Car Championship as they were essentially too expensive.

Now, Rod Collingwood won the 1972 NZ Saloon Car Championship in the AMCO Mini now owned by Gerald Fogg. At the time, NZ was using Group 5 rules. But Collingwood won the title because of the way the points system worked. It rewarded class wins which counted towards outright points. So, by gaining better placings in his 1 litre class than the V8 guys did in the 6 litre class, he was able to win the title. He didn’t win the title because his car was faster on the track than the V8s, because it wasn’t.

Typically, the V8s were faster than the smaller capacity cars. That’s just the ugly truth. This was the case the world over. During the Group 5 era in NZ, the only car that actually genuinely outpaced the V8s was Paul Fahey’s 1,800cc Escort FVC. He won the 1971 championship by being outright the fastest car on the track. In Australia, Pete Geoghegan was the last driver of a small capacity car to win the Australian Touring Car Championship. He won it in 1964 in a Cortina GT. Throughout the entire Improved Production era, and into Group C from 1973 through 1984, a V8 won the championship every year from 1965, through to 1983, when Allan Moffat won in a Mazda RX7 during the latter stages of the Group C era. The fact is, V8s are just faster. As Bruce McLaren once said: “A good big’n will always beat a good little’n”.

Here is a photo from 1971, when NZ was using Group 5 rules. The V8s are at the front, with only Paul Faheys Escort in the mix. Next are the 1,001 - 4,200cc class cars, followed by the 0-1,000cc class cars.

30114

Here is a photo from 1973, when NZ had just started using Schedule E. The rules have hanged, but the situation hasn't. Its still the V8s at the front. The fact is, you probably need a V8 to beat a V8. This was the case 45 years ago, and its still the case now.

30115

Now, with regards the arguments here for allowing some of the HSC cars on slicks. According to Gerald Fogg, his AMCO Mini was racing on slick tyres as early as 1970. I consider Gerald to be an upstanding and very honest person. So I have to believe he genuinely believes this. According to the excellent link Jac Mac added in Post #65 above, slick tyres didn’t appear in Australia until 1972. Therefore, Rod Collingwood somehow got hold of a set of slick tyres a full two years before they first appeared in Australia. This could well have been the case. I’ve posted a photo that shows the AMCO Mini fitted with treaded tyres. Gerald said that Collingwood ran the entire season on one set of tyres. Is it possible they were treaded tyres that had done so many racing miles the tread had worn off? Maybe they really were slicks. Certainly, they’d have been some of the very first slicks to appear on a race car anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere. But this could well have been the case.

Regardless, lets just say Collingwood did indeed have slicks on the AMCO Mini as early as 1970. While the AMCO Mini was possibly the very first car fitted with slick racing tyres in NZ, whats certain is that by 1972/73, every other car racing was also fitted with slicks. Therefore, if the AMCO Mini can have slicks, then so can everyone else in HMC and HSC.

I'm only quoting these old historical facts because you guys are using history as the reason for wanting slicks accepted.

Now, what you guys are effectively suggesting is that the rules be changed to manipulate falsified results by allowing some (or all?) HSC cars on slicks so they can compete equally with the V8s. How does this benefit HSC as a whole if one or two small capacity cars are able to battle the V8s? There appears to be an assumption that HMC took on the running of HSC with the objective of creating falsified racing between large and small cars that never actually happened in period. But this isn’t the case. It took on HSC to provide a safe haven for owners of T&C and Schedule K cars who were sick of being put in groups against either modern race cars and/or heavily modified cars built way outside either T&C or Schedule K rules. The fact that some T&C and Schedule K cars are as fast as the fastest V8s is really only a happy side-effect. And, the two groups do look cool together.

The fact is, at many events, HMC and HSC will have to have separate grids, because car numbers will be such that there are too many cars for one grid. That being the case, if the AMCO Mini is fitted with slick tyres and racing in a field of small capacity HSC-only cars all on treaded tyres, its clearly going to romp away into the distance. How does this benefit HSC? How are the other HSC racers going to react to this? Whatever happens for HSC, has to be good for the group as a whole, not one or two individuals.

I appreciate you guys like the idea of the small capacity cars being able to match it with the V8s, but there is no way we could allow either one, or two, or a handful of HSC cars to be fitted with slicks, without causing a riot among everyone else. If you let one guy on slicks, you have to let everyone else on slicks.

Answer me this:

1: Which HSC cars should be allowed on slick tyres? Just the actual original cars with period history? All the Schedule K cars? Or all the HSC cars including the T&C cars?

2: Should these cars be fitted with bias-ply slick tyres as used in period, or modern radial slicks?

3: Is there an assumption here that everyone who owns and races an HSC car will want to race on slicks? What if the majority don’t? How do we manage a situation in which some people are not happy that some cars are fitted with slicks?

4: By allowing slicks, are we promoting chequebook racing over historic racing?

5: Some of the HMC car owners are already uncomfortable with racing against the small capacity cars, because their behavior is so different and they are able to duck and dive in and out of the HMC drivers blind spots. If the HSC cars are on slicks, they’ll be even more nimble. How do we then manage this situation with the HMC drivers?

6: In the cases where the HMC cars and the HSC cars are divided into their own separate races, should the HSC cars still run slicks?

Its all very well throwing around ideas for the sake of appealing to one or two people, but the good of the class as a whole always has to be put ahead of the good of single individuals.

Its really best to view HMC and HSC as two completely separate entities, with their own separate races. By doing so provides clarity on understanding why it is slick tyres just can’t work in HSC. Those pushing for slicks want to do so to make the smaller cars capable of beating the V8s. But take the V8s out of the equation. What purpose do slick tyres now serve? How do they benefit HSC as a stand-alone class?

[ERC]

Good comments Steve. The reality however is that HMC up to now, have yet to fill a local grid without support from either the Australians at the Festival or combining with another class, so mixing HSC and HMC has to be a given until either one or the other is able to stand on its own.

You alluded to the AMCO Mini winning a Championship by virtue of the class points system. I see nothing wrong with that and it is where Tier 1 have lost the plot, jumping up and down about parity instead of welcoming different classes into the same race.

I have insufficient knowledge about the relative performance of a slick tyre, radial or cross ply against the commonly available and acceptable DoT rated road tyres.

What I do know however is that having owned and raced the same standard car for 25 years and with 100% bog standard running gear, that any extra horsepower against the published figures when brand new, is out of the question. (How many others can claim that their CoD compliant cars are producing no more than the published horsepower for that make/model?) That means any changes to lap times over that 25 years has come from just two areas, given that I don't think my driving has changed. The first is track resurfacing at Pukekohe (old track) and the second has been tyres.

Moving from the original road tyres to a more sports orientated but secondhand, well worn tyre, knocked 5 seconds off my lap time immediately. Moving then to a brand new road tyre (Toyo) for the last few years knocked another 1 or 2 seconds off and most importantly, the lap times are consistent unless weather/track conditions are adverse or the tyres have aged.

If I moved to a slick tyre, quite frankly, I doubt my lap times would improve significantly, as the car just doesn't have an excess of power over current grip.

There is no need whatever for HMC to move to a slick tyre regardless, as they already have an abundance of power!

I'd really like to know what the actual lap time difference is for an under 2 litre car on different tyres.

I don't buy into an argument about large and small cars mixing it. Check back to the 2015 festival where we had full grids on every race and 4 of those races were handicaps and only one of those had minor panel damage. The responsibility is on drivers to use their mirrors and also make safe overtaking runs. Choccy fish racing remember?

Whatever the organisers decide, the drivers just have to conform and sometimes leadership means making unpopular decisions. Been there. Done that. Have the bruises to prove it. You'll never stop criticism or challenges - and that goes with the territory. Just go with what you think is correct and is your philosophy. We outsiders often only enter these discussions to act as Devil's Advocates but robust debate is healthy.

The end result is always whether or not a class is sustainable and as mentioned many times before, financially viable for promoters.

[Howard Wood]

Bloody hell, I’m beginning to see why nobody wanted to take this on.

Answer me this:

1: Which HSC cars should be allowed on slick tyres? Just the actual original cars with period history? All the Schedule K cars? Or all the HSC cars including the T&C cars?

2: Should these cars be fitted with bias-ply slick tyres as used in period, or modern radial slicks?

3: Is there an assumption here that everyone who owns and races an HSC car will want to race on slicks? What if the majority don’t? How do we manage a situation in which some people are not happy that some cars are fitted with slicks?

4: By allowing slicks, are we promoting chequebook racing over historic racing?

5: Some of the HMC car owners are already uncomfortable with racing against the small capacity cars, because their behavior is so different and they are able to duck and dive in and out of the HMC drivers blind spots. If the HSC cars are on slicks, they’ll be even more nimble. How do we then manage this situation with the HMC drivers?

6: In the cases where the HMC cars and the HSC cars are divided into their own separate races, should the HSC cars still run slicks?

Its all very well throwing around ideas for the sake of appealing to one or two people, but the good of the class as a whole always has to be put ahead of the good of single individuals.

Its really best to view HMC and HSC as two completely separate entities, with their own separate races. By doing so provides clarity on understanding why it is slick tyres just can’t work in HSC. Those pushing for slicks want to do so to make the smaller cars capable of beating the V8s. But take the V8s out of the equation. What purpose do slick tyres now serve? How do they benefit HSC as a stand-alone class?

1. Obviously the rules including tyre choices must be uniform for all the cars not just a select few. Try turning the argument on it's head: because of the proposed DoT tyre regulation we run the very real possibility of excluding two of the most significant "real" cars which really should be the stars of this class, the AMCO Mini and Haliday Escort (and quite possibly others as well) because of the unavailability of suitable tyres. Therefore what are the reasons for NOT allowing slicks?

2. Lets look at the available options and costs and the possibility of a control tyre. For example the F5000 class have a control tyre AND a limit of one set of tyre per two meetings.

3. This is clearly and obviously a view that needs to be canvased. I can't answer that, you know my view and Gerald's view.

4. I am not at all sure that slicks would actually increase costs. As already discussed, tyre life of DoT tyres can be VERY short. I ran Michelin slicks (same as F Toyota Series cars) in the Heritage Touring car class at this year's festival as there was no room for under 3 litre cars in the HMC field. I had insufficient racing mileage to accurately gauge tyre life but indications are that it will be several times more than the medium compound DoT Dunlop I normally use at about a 50% price premium. A control tyre (which must be available in a variety of sizes) would definitely offer the very real chance of a decrease in costs.

5. No comment.

6. We are talking about HSC regulations which apply regardless of having a stand alone grid or within another class. Parity (or otherwise) with HMC is not the underlying concern or goal here, it is merely a potential side benefit. Maybe not seen as a positive within HMC circles?

[AMCO72]

Whew.......its not the knitting needles I should be looking for, but the bi-focals !!!!!! I had to read those posts several times to get the gist of what was being said.......I think I am clear now, but it seems that I am the villian of the piece, having raised this subject of tyres. My original intention was to get it all cleared up BEFORE racing commenced so there wasnt a lot of muttering going on in the pits.

To rest my eyes, I wandered out into the motor house to do a check on some old tyres that have been piled in the corner for sentimental sake, and guess what.......I found some old 'Aqua-Jets' which I seem to remember were the tyre of choice for a Mini, and others in the 1980's. I had a wicked thought that perhaps everyone could use this tyre and have it as a control for the whole group.

As everyone knows, I am a pretty hopeless driver. I always thought I could drive FAST.....but fast is NOT racing.......a big difference when you compare my times with Angus' times in the same car........usually about 5 seconds/lap on any given course. So clearly it is not going to matter one jot what sort of bloody tyres are on the car when I am driving, because I will still be at the back !!!!!!!



I have written an email to Dave Panckhurst who was responsible for building the Amco Mini and asked him to clear up for me/us this thorny question of slicks. I have dozens of photos of the car.....standing still and racing that clearly, IN MY MIND shows it to be shod with slicks. I am awaiting Daves reply, and you will be the first to know.:)

[Spgeti]

Answering this with the driver/owners hat on.

Just to clarify that I own a 1974 Alfa Romeo 2000GTV with an A pass T&C COD that runs the correct GTA 14x6.5 inch rims for the car and yep your guessed it, 14 inch tyres are not easy to come by these days.

1, I the light of the prior discussions I feel that the Historic Cars only should be able to run Bias Slicks if their is no suitable alternative. The remainder of the cars should all be on Bias Treaded Vintage tyres ie CR65s or Bias Dot Tyres. If a schedule K car has difficulty then it should be on a case by case basis and not taken for granted. Control tyre, well we have a lot of different makes of cars and wheel sizes. NZ supplier who would care for the group would be an advantage ie Cardwells. I feel we need to stay with the era we represent.

2, As above and no to radials.

3, I am comfortable that the Historic's only with the exception of maybe a few of the Schedule K cars can run on Bias Slicks.

4, I priced the Vintage Sports Car bias tyres to suit my car $358.00 each from Cardwells. Its been years since I bought race tyres so tell me if that's reasonable......??

5, Put down some driving standards and police it.....

6, As for # 1 above. Wet weather is my concern with slicks and those with slicks must have a wet alternative.

I personally want this to work and no I am not battered or bruised. I believe in this and I really want the Historic's in this or without them I feel it is a lost cause. It is no good having these cars sit in the shed.:)

[Andrew Metford]

http://www.garysmotorsporttyres.com.au/dunlop/dunlop-r7-cr65

"Dunlop continue to make historic and vintage race tyres in the original moulds. These are made in a modern compound and construction which best enhances the performance of the original tyre."

It seems as if the CR65 these days only "looks" period, so who are you actually kidding saying that is the correct period tyre to use today? Looks like the only difference between the CR65 and say a Toyo is the tread pattern?? "Modern construction" = is it even still a bias ply??

Here's another one for some kind of idea of pricing ( GBPounds though ), and all the different sizes available.

http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/dunlop-racing-tyres

[RogerH]

http://www.garysmotorsporttyres.com.au/dunlop/dunlop-r7-cr65

"Dunlop continue to make historic and vintage race tyres in the original moulds. These are made in a modern compound and construction which best enhances the performance of the original tyre."

It seems as if the CR65 these days only "looks" period, so who are you actually kidding saying that is the correct period tyre to use today? Looks like the only difference between the CR65 and say a Toyo is the tread pattern?? "Modern construction" = is it even still a bias ply??

Here's another one for some kind of idea of pricing ( GBPounds though ), and all the different sizes available.

http://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/page/dunlop-racing-tyres

We run cars with both Dunlop CR65 and Toyo 888 tyres. They have quite different compound characteristics. The Dunlop has a 204 compound which is medium hard and a durometer test shows the 888 is much softer.

[Spgeti]

We run cars with both Dunlop CR65 and Toyo 888 tyres. They have quite different compound characteristics. The Dunlop has a 204 compound which is medium hard and a durometer test shows the 888 is much softer.

What is the wear like with the CR65,s and where do you purchase them from ?.

Cheers

Bruce Dyer

[John H]

Slick tyres. The first slicks I did see was on the rear of the chain driven Stanton Corvette at Mt Maunganui street race. 63-64-65? It was in its single seater form then and the same year Amon was in the low line Cooper and I think Shelly won the race? Be interested if someone could confirm the year.

[Andrew Metford]

We run cars with both Dunlop CR65 and Toyo 888 tyres. They have quite different compound characteristics. The Dunlop has a 204 compound which is medium hard and a durometer test shows the 888 is much softer.

Roger, is the CR65 of today still a bias ply?

[Bailey]

[QUOTE=Howard Wood;48227]1.

2. Lets look at the available options and costs and the possibility of a control tyre. For example the F5000 class have a control tyre AND a limit of one set of tyre per two meetings.

F5000 do not have a control tyre, but there is really only one compound in the Avon range that suits the majority
of the competitors, therefore everyone uses it. I believe F Atlantic may have a control Avon compound

[Paul Wilkinson]

Being Devil's advocate, what about running other 'period' consumables such as the same spec brake-pads, shocks, clutch plates, brake fluids and oils etc? How about other consumables such as pistons and rings etc that these days are made with improved materials or using improved processes? You'll need to throw a handful of dirt in the gas tank each time you fill up some of the very old cars as period gas was often contaminated - you'd be allowed to filter it through pantyhose before using it though as that is period correct.
Cars are now faster, safer and more reliable than they were back in the day because of a level of pragmatism about these regularly replaced items. When someone like Paddy Hopkirk gets into a 'period' Mini racer and says they never had that much power and were never that quick back in the day, you know we're enjoying the benefits of modern manufacturing. Finally getting to my point, should it be a buffet where you get to pick and choose what gives you an advantage? Or should you appreciate that the rules are there to help aggregate enough cars to make 'racing' feasible?

[RogerH]

Roger, is the CR65 of today still a bias ply?
In reply to both your and Bruce's questions. The CR65 is a ply tyre that we get in a bulk order of around 40 CR65 tyres direct from the UK. With the bulk order and combined freight the price was reasonable - we usually do an order once a season for the guys in our series.
The wear is reasonable and seems a bit better than the Toyos but they do harden off from the initial softness level. The really competitive guys in the UK replace them after 8 heat cycles but we find they are still reasonable after a season.
They are nice tyres to drive on with predictable and gradual loss of grip. There has been a supply problem with the UK production having to close due to health and safety issues but I understand that new production in Portugal is coming on line.

[Spgeti]

In reply to both your and Bruce's questions. The CR65 is a ply tyre that we get in a bulk order of around 40 CR65 tyres direct from the UK. With the bulk order and combined freight the price was reasonable - we usually do an order once a season for the guys in our series.
The wear is reasonable and seems a bit better than the Toyos but they do harden off from the initial softness level. The really competitive guys in the UK replace them after 8 heat cycles but we find they are still reasonable after a season.
They are nice tyres to drive on with predictable and gradual loss of grip. There has been a supply problem with the UK production having to close due to health and safety issues but I understand that new production in Portugal is coming on line.

Thanks Roger, appreciate your input.

[Jac Mac]

Had a spare 10 minutes in the loft today- Dunlop Racing Slicks ( The ones with only tread depth reference holes- no 'tread' pattern of any description ) saw service for the first time on a Chevron sports/race car driven by Chris Craft ~ July- August 1971 according to an article/photo in SCW Sept 1971.

[tweaks]

Further to Jac Mac's research I did a quick search and found a MotorSport article which might explain a few things re slicks and dates ...
M & H Drag slicks ( smooth slick surface ) had beed around since early 50's .. while circuit racing tyres Dunlop CR92 had small indentations, birds feet like until 1971

www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/july-1999/51/slick-tyre

Cheers
Lyndsay

[Steve Holmes]

1. Obviously the rules including tyre choices must be uniform for all the cars not just a select few. Try turning the argument on it's head: because of the proposed DoT tyre regulation we run the very real possibility of excluding two of the most significant "real" cars which really should be the stars of this class, the AMCO Mini and Haliday Escort (and quite possibly others as well) because of the unavailability of suitable tyres. Therefore what are the reasons for NOT allowing slicks?

Of course, we'd never want to turn cars away for the sake of there not being an available tyre. But you're only referring to DOT tyres here, the T&C and Schedule K rules also allow for treaded vintage bias-ply tyres, of which there is a huge selection available, because of the huge international interest in historic racing. Hoosier produce a Vintage Bias H Tread 165/70x10 tyre specifically for historic racing Minis, Elfs, Imps etc:

http://www.minimania.com/part/HOOSIER-10/165-X-70-X-10-Hoosier-Race-Tires

These are available from Cardwell Racing Supplies. They're a proper vintage racing tyre, available all year round. Bruce Dyer has contacted Cardwells re supply, and they can have them in 6 weeks.

If there are cars that genuinely don't have a suitable tyre available within the rules, then of course this has to be looked at on a car by car basis.

[Spgeti]

Being Devil's advocate, what about running other 'period' consumables such as the same spec brake-pads, shocks, clutch plates, brake fluids and oils etc? How about other consumables such as pistons and rings etc that these days are made with improved materials or using improved processes? You'll need to throw a handful of dirt in the gas tank each time you fill up some of the very old cars as period gas was often contaminated - you'd be allowed to filter it through pantyhose before using it though as that is period correct.
Cars are now faster, safer and more reliable than they were back in the day because of a level of pragmatism about these regularly replaced items. When someone like Paddy Hopkirk gets into a 'period' Mini racer and says they never had that much power and were never that quick back in the day, you know we're enjoying the benefits of modern manufacturing. Finally getting to my point, should it be a buffet where you get to pick and choose what gives you an advantage? Or should you appreciate that the rules are there to help aggregate enough cars to make 'racing' feasible?

Hi Paul....yes I have been in touch with Smash Palace and they do have supplies of period water, oil, brake fluid, fuel etc but I doubt that we would want to use it.....:p

In the 1970s when we drag raced the HO and Z/28s we use to fill up with Avgas from Pokeno but alas the service station has well gone.
Oh the days of when you could drive onto the runway and fill up the Camaro at Milson Airport...no chance of that today.

The objective is to follow the T&C and Schedule K rules as per the Historic Racing in Appendix 6 along with the spirit of Historic Racing which is covered in Appendix 6. There will always be resistance from some and we expect that and there will always be some that fall out of those regulation and we understand that.

Dale, Steve and Tony started HMC which is a credit to their passion and now it is time to give direction and a class for those that want to be part of HSC in pre 78 Saloon Car Racing which will include those with Historic Saloon Cars that ran in the era.

Building a grid will take time but we have to date had positive interest outside of the Roaring Season as well.

Cheers

[AMCO72]

OK, just tidying up a few loose ends here, then thats it as far as I am concerned. I wrote in post 74 that I was going to contact Dave Panckhurst to see if he remembered the tyres that the Amco Mini was on in 1971 to 1973. I actually ended up speaking with 4 ex drivers/owners so got a good picture. I am quoting what they said on here and you can take it or leave it.......makes no difference to me......

1. Dave Panckhurst.......is too long ago for him to remember exactly, but he knew they had CR65's as wets. He conntacted Rod Collingwood to see if his memory was any better......

2. Rod Collingwood........quote.....Hi Dave, yes we definately ran on slicks [both seasons] The tyres had small indentations running round the tyre to establish tread depth. You are also correct in that we had some narrower rims with CR65 pattern tread for wets.....the old 'slub' pattern like the Formula Fords ran before the new semi-slick they have now. You can Google Mini Race Tyres 1970 to 1973 to see what was available in that era.

3...Tony Mann....owner and restorer of the ex Jim Richards Sidchrome Imp. Tony sent me a photo taken on Jim Richards parents drive in late 69/70 before the BNSW championship. Shows a very wide treaded tyre of unknown pattern. Tony has a similar problem to us in that he has to get approval to run on slicks, as the Imp used these also back in the day. Tony does actually have his slicks grooved as often happened in the early days of slick use. Apparently drivers were a bit hesitant about using tyres with no tread so grooving was common.

4...Reg Cook.....a legend in himself. I phoned Reg and had a long talk. He was one of the participants in the BNSW series and amongst a lot of other stuff, he told me that they used CR65's CR82's and slicks, sometimes grooved.

So there you are. It is a long time ago and peoples memory plays tricks on them, but I think that is a fair cross section of people who should know what they are talking about.

Of course non of the above is worth the paper it is written on, as the organisers will draw up a set of rules and regulations to suit the class and people will fall in line or not as the case may be.

I can only quote what Paul Wilkinson wrote in post 82........'we should appreciate that the rules are there to help aggregate enough cars to make racing feasible..........

The end !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve Holmes]

Hi Gerald, thanks for taking the time and effort to do this. Its much appreciated.

What are your thoughts on the tyre mentioned in post #87 above? Have you ever raced on this tyre?

[AMCO72]

Cant comment on the Hoosiers with tread.......have used the Hoosier slick. You would have to ask someone who knew how to drive, not a broken down old dairy farmer.!!!!!! What I do know is that they loose air fairly quickly when not being used.......as if thats important !!!!!

It was while I was thinking about slicks etc, that an incident came to mind that happened a long time ago. We were with the Amco Mini at Whenuapai in 1989 for a classic meeting, and Paul Adams turned up with a Lotus Cortina.......cant remember whether it was a Mk1 or 2......very nice. Anyway Paul presented the car at scrutineering and was told he couldnt run with the tyres that were on the car.......yes, you guessed it.... slicks. There was a hell of a rumpus with lots of shouting, and the outcome was that Paul loaded the car back on the trailer and drove off.........just saying.

[Kiwiboss]

From the Muscle Car Masters on the weekend, for those of you that don't understand this is a CAMS Historic Nb class Mini in Australia.

[Spgeti]

They look the part Dale. I have ordered them for my Alfa 105 and will use the same on my Elf.

[Spgeti]

Hi Guy's,

I am coming up to the Ice Breaker Meeting this afternoon and will be there all Saturday. If want to catch up with me to put a face to name that would be great.

I will be there from 9.30am onwards and around the HMC/HSC group.

Looking forward to meeting some of you.

Cheers,

Bruce D

[Spgeti]

Ice Breaker....sunny but that wind cut you in half.

I have been up from the sunny Manawatu 3 times this year. To The Festival in January to crew for the Alfa Montreal and catch up with a long lost friend after 37 years away, The Legends meeting to meet and greet the HMC guy's and The Ice Breaker to get to know more off you and to say hello to a few old Trofeo friends.

I enjoyed the Saturday and met and spoke to a lot of very nice people.

The only race I watched was the HMC/HSC and even if the numbers were down they put on a great show.
Roger Williams Camaro just screamed, Dale had a good dice with Bob Hyslop's Mazda RX2 in the PDL Mustang replica and the rest just had a ball even if the field was small. Gary broke the XA Coupe and John decided it was time to bring the snags out for a BBQ with a rear brake fire......

I want to thank the guy's that turned up and raced.
Bob Hyslop in his historic Mazda RX2. a car that he has owned since 1974 and raced and rallied years ago.
John Sampson in his beautiful Ford Capri RS2600 and also Dennis O'Connell in his Mk 1 ford Escort Lotus TC. Both these guys did double duty racing on the weekend.

Not the best of turn outs this weekend but lets move forward and look towards the October meeting and come on guy's lets get the cars out of the sheds for this one and give the big boys a run for their money.

Cheers,
Bruce

[ERC]

Just to add to that, John Dennehy (Halliday Escort) heard Friday that numbers were low and elected to run with the ERC rather than not race at all on Sunday. He missed Saturday. He also had a ball and made a point of saying afterwards that he thoroughly enjoyed the two handicaps and was most impressed with the driving standards, even though we'd combined our two speed groups.

Sorry I missed you Bruce, but totally agree about the cutting wind. I went for a hike around turn 1 and nearly lost my wig!

Sunday was cooler still and we had a shower of rain just before lunch. Won't be at the October meeting (nor will our group) so look forward to hearing about it on here, as your numbers may be enhanced as there won't be any opportunity for double duty.

[AMCO72]

Were there any complaints from competitors in AES/Arrows regarding the Haliday Escort's tyre choice. I will bet he got a stiff handicap......as he should have, and as the Mini would expect to. Those handicap races ALWAYS turn out to be the best, and I have seen some amazing drives from the handicap system, with Guys coming through the field from the back giving it everything. The thing I like about it is that avoids that first lap melee where most of the damage occurs. When will other classes see the light?

[ERC]

Yes, John was on slicks, but as I had no history to handicap him for race one, he had a slightly soft handicap! Race 2, he had a handicap that was correct ACCORDING TO HIS LAP TIME - which as far as I am concerned is correct, regardless of tyre choice. But, as he did well in race one, he was pushed back a little, but still finished 4th, lapping in 1:18, compared to the fastest car on 1:13.

No complaints AMCO... John is a vastly experienced competitor, a clean driver and as I said to him at the end of our racing, I set far more store by the drivers' attitude than the 100% legality of the car. The cars may be the stars, but give me (and most other drivers I suspect) the choice of racing pure cars with wild drivers or wild cars driven by pure drivers(!), the latter preference every time - and some people need to understand that is what drives our philosophy.

[Steve Holmes]

Here is some neat period tv footage from Crystal Palace, and the 1969 British Saloon Car Championship, held under Group 5 rules. I believe this is the 0 - 1,300cc class.

Murray Walker is commentating.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYNRJ9z2bso

[Spgeti]

That is what Historic Racing is about. Great video Steve. My Elf was owned and raced by John Fitzpatrick......but not the famous one !!
Note to Gerald, the Minis are on 12 rims and have Arden heads......

[AMCO72]

What are you suggesting here Spgeti........that we convert the Amco Mini to 12 inch rims??? Some of the competitors in the 1972 BNSW championship were on 12in wheels but not us........and never will be. I have no doubt there is a better selection of tyres for that size, but too bad, we will just have to struggle on with our C49 crossply's !!!!!!! Hopefully we will get a very generous handicap. !!

Our Arden head engine is in for major surgery, and its recovery may/will depend on finance. Meantime I have the engine we built for the first Festival in 2010 sitting in my motor-house, and this could well end up back in the car........will need an even more generous handicap with that !!!!:) :)

[Spgeti]

C49s.....it will go better than ever Gerald :p

Cheers
Bruce

[ERC]

Our Arden head engine is in for major surgery, and its recovery may/will depend on finance. Meantime I have the engine we built for the first Festival in 2010 sitting in my motor-house, and this could well end up back in the car........will need an even more generous handicap with that !!!!:) :)
No problem... But first of all, it has to be out racing!

[khyndart in CA]

Please excuse my ignorance but factory Minis came out with 12 in rims in 1984.
Did they race on that size earlier than that ?

AMCO72 " Some of the competitors in the 1972 BNSW championship were on 12in wheels but not us........and never will be."


(Ken Hyndman )

[Steve Holmes]

I think Barry Phillips was on 12 wheels by around 1971? For sure, his were of a larger diameter than most of the other Minis.

[Steve Holmes]

I knew I wasn't going crazy! At least, not just yet. Mike Feisst photo of Barry Phillips' beautiful Cambridge Mini, fitted with, I believe, 12" wheels?

By the way, this car is now owned by Barry's son Graeme, who is planning a full restoration on it back to this famous livery.

30340

[Spgeti]

What a beautiful car.
The video clip stated that the 12 inch wheels had just been homologlated, and that was 1968. Most likely with the Arden heads and injection.

[AMCO72]

That car had been lying around for a while, and we were so pleased when Graeme bought it. BUT, he paid top price for it and some of the good bits had been robbed. Angus and Graeme have been communicating trying to source some genuine parts. It is going to be a long job so dont hold your breath.......something like this is going be in the six figure ball park, but will be a great asset when it is done.

Looking forward to it jousting with the Amco Mini as it did all those years ago.......

[Frosty5]

Bruce, have just PM'd you.
Cheers Dave Graham

[Spgeti]

PM sent Dave

Cheers
Bruce

[Steve Holmes]

Newest car to join the Historic Saloon Car ranks, is Darron Curphey's pretty Fiat 131. The car has been built to MSNZ T&C rules, was built many years ago, and has a COD.

Darron will be racing at the TACCOC event at Pukekohe on October 3.

30410

[ERC]

Just to clarify, Darron also races in the ERC Series, but that TACCOC October meeting is not one of our rounds, so hopefully, your grid will be boosted. No cars doing double duty. Sadly, I'll miss it as I am overseas.

[Spgeti]

Nice to have you aboard Darron. I am sure you will enjoy yourself out there with the big boys as well. You preformed really well at AROC May Madness this year and enjoying Trofeo as well. Good photo of you out at Manfeild this year with Dr Bruce Stewart in his very quick 105.

[ERC]

30412

[Steve Holmes]

Nice to have you aboard Darron. I am sure you will enjoy yourself out there with the big boys as well. You preformed really well at AROC May Madness this year and enjoying Trofeo as well. Good photo of you out at Manfeild this year with Dr Bruce Stewart in his very quick 105.

This to my mind is a perfect example of why it makes sense to build either a T&C or Schedule K car and get a COD. Although MSNZ have never had any involvement in historic car racing in NZ, and have never enforced the COD system, their rules are overall very good.

But why go off on a tangent and build a morphodite monster that provides its owner so few places to actually race, when you could have something like this, that is generally accepted anywhere, and as its owner proves, does actually race in multiple different series'.

[ERC]

Fair comment Steve, but there is another side to it. "Their rules overall" are very good. The devil is in the detail...

Those NOT running CoD cars actually have plenty of races they can enter and many drivers (myself included) are not looking for more races. There is a limit. Why build a car for just 4 or 5 races a year for 'pure' CoD cars when you can build one for 7 or 8 races a year without a CoD - usually running at the same meetings anyway? At this stage, the TACCOC October meeting is the only one in the local season where the Historic Saloon saloon class is running and the other saloon classes aren't. Round 1, a total of 8 cars for the last race of the Icebreaker meeting, for a combined class of 3 groups is surely saying something?

As stated many, many times before, there are plenty of cars that would qualify for a CoD but the owners see no advantage. I suggest you have a long chat to the organisers, past and present, of the Alfa Trofeo Series, who will explain where the faults are with the T & C rules and why so many of their cars, whilst acceptable to them and to us, do not conform.

[Jac Mac]

'Morphodite'- a plant or animal with both male/female sex organs- really , what has that got to do with race cars. Might be a good time to remember that race cars of all types in this country were around before the revenue gathers decided to concoct unnecessary stuff like COD's and various shedules etc. The cars really don't care where they race or who with, its only the drivers/owners & circuit organisers etc along with other well meaning misguided individuals who want to put them in different size packages.


This to my mind is a perfect example of why it makes sense to build either a T&C or Schedule K car and get a COD. Although MSNZ have never had any involvement in historic car racing in NZ, and have never enforced the COD system, their rules are overall very good.

But why go off on a tangent and build a morphodite monster that provides its owner so few places to actually race, when you could have something like this, that is generally accepted anywhere, and as its owner proves, does actually race in multiple different series'.

[Steve Holmes]

'Morphodite'- a plant or animal with both male/female sex organs- really , what has that got to do with race cars. Might be a good time to remember that race cars of all types in this country were around before the revenue gathers decided to concoct unnecessary stuff like COD's and various shedules etc. The cars really don't care where they race or who with, its only the drivers/owners & circuit organisers etc along with other well meaning misguided individuals who want to put them in different size packages.

Jac, I'd be staggered if you actually agreed with my comments, as you've been openly critical of the Historic Muscle Cars concept of having a class that uses a strict set of rules, rather than being a free-for-all. And thats fair enough.

Certainly, the classic/historic racing scene in NZ does allow room for both, which really offers car owners a great number of options. But as Ray Green said in post #112, this particular Fiat also races in his group, which isn't going to be at this particular TACCOC vent. The fact the car was built to MSNZ T&C rules and has a COD means its owner can jump in and race with HSC. This in itself proves my point, as here is a good example of a car owner wanting to race at this event, and the fact his car has been built the way it is, means there is a place for him to race.

[Spgeti]

Fair comment Steve, but there is another side to it. "Their rules overall" are very good. The devil is in the detail...

Those NOT running CoD cars actually have plenty of races they can enter and many drivers (myself included) are not looking for more races. There is a limit. Why build a car for just 4 or 5 races a year for 'pure' CoD cars when you can build one for 7 or 8 races a year without a CoD - usually running at the same meetings anyway? At this stage, the TACCOC October meeting is the only one in the local season where the Historic Saloon saloon class is running and the other saloon classes aren't. Round 1, a total of 8 cars for the last race of the Icebreaker meeting, for a combined class of 3 groups is surely saying something?

As stated many, many times before, there are plenty of cars that would qualify for a CoD but the owners see no advantage. I suggest you have a long chat to the organisers, past and present, of the Alfa Trofeo Series, who will explain where the faults are with the T & C rules and why so many of their cars, whilst acceptable to them and to us, do not conform.

Life must really end at the Bombay's as they say Ray....

I will say this once...Trofeo do not represent the majority of Alfa Romeo racers in this country.
I have been a member of AROC for now 15 years an Area Rep up until this year and one of the principle orgainisers of AROC May Madness Meeting at Manfeild which is now into its 30th year.

The last count there were in in excess of 80 AROC racers countrywide and many of their car fit the COD regulations.
My car was built in 2003 to race in Trofeo and to the COD regulations and the then Trofeo Rules that were applicable at the time.
They changed the rules to exclude all car except those with full cages. That one change excluded my car with its half cage.
I have raced my 105 all over the lower North Island, sprints, rallies, hillclimbs, Winter Series and MG Whitakers and never been rejected.
I have many good friends in Trofeo and wish to keep it like that, but please do not tell me that they are the knowlegable people that run racing for AROC in NZ, in Auckland yes, but no where else.

Cheers
Bruce Dyer

[Steve Holmes]

Fair comment Steve, but there is another side to it. "Their rules overall" are very good. The devil is in the detail...

Those NOT running CoD cars actually have plenty of races they can enter and many drivers (myself included) are not looking for more races. There is a limit. Why build a car for just 4 or 5 races a year for 'pure' CoD cars when you can build one for 7 or 8 races a year without a CoD - usually running at the same meetings anyway? At this stage, the TACCOC October meeting is the only one in the local season where the Historic Saloon saloon class is running and the other saloon classes aren't. Round 1, a total of 8 cars for the last race of the Icebreaker meeting, for a combined class of 3 groups is surely saying something?

As stated many, many times before, there are plenty of cars that would qualify for a CoD but the owners see no advantage. I suggest you have a long chat to the organisers, past and present, of the Alfa Trofeo Series, who will explain where the faults are with the T & C rules and why so many of their cars, whilst acceptable to them and to us, do not conform.

Its probably not fair to deem a new class a success or failure based on its very first attempt, held at an event known for its fickle support, and during a cold spring. The Historic Formula 5000 group, which has been running for many years, and which now has 50 cars registered in NZ, had just 12 cars enter the GP event last season. Does this prove this class to be a failure?

Despite your misgivings, there are people who do support the idea of building their cars to either T&C, or Schedule K rules, and gaining a COD. Part of the problem is that to date, there hasn't been much reason to actually coax car owners to want to do this. HSC was created to support these people, as while its true there are indeed plenty of places to race a car without a COD, by the same token, there are very few places that cater only to cars with a COD.

Only time will tell if heading down this path was the right or wrong decision. And it may very well take years. But certainly, a decision can't be made after just one event.

[ERC]

What I meant Bruce was that the Alfa Trofeo members and many of those in the area, with a bit of rule tweaking, the T & C rules would cover almost all cars. As they stand now, as I said before, the devil is in the detail and that detail is what schedule K/Appendix K is for. Running a pure car to those rules few people will disagree with.

You then have to ask what T & C is actually there for and when you go through the rules, line by line, word by word which we did some years ago, you see the anomalies, especially if you take a close look a car that most would accept, as being legitimate for this type of racing, but would not get a CoD.

We have said it many, many times before, but race meeting organisers and series organisers are always free to TIGHTEN the overall rules if they so wish. We simply state that some form of roll protection is mandatory in the faster group, as full cages effectively turn a road car into a race car and can destroy the classic value. We also made harnesses mandatory but backed off with just an advisory on any form of neck restraint.

Whilst the purists think that everything should be 100% pre 1977 - but choose to fit rev limiters and shift lights and run cars with heaps more horsepower than they ever had in period - they have no right to push people into getting an expensive piece of paper that proves absolutely nothing about the legitimacy of an engine's innards!

Yes, we will always beg to differ on philosophy, but take the number of words pushing for CoDs over the last 20 years or so (TACCOC's meetings up until about three years ; the original Arrow Wheels Series; U3L saloons; HMC etc) and the fact that 2/3rds of racers at the average race meeting haven't bought into the system, is far more telling than the single race at the first meeting of the season, that accounts for 20% of the year's programme for some.

As long as promoters put on well supported, financially viable meetings, then the whole T & C and CoD issue is a side show to appease a few well meaning and passionate purists, but it has yet to be proved that the system has been success, other than for those with genuine historic cars or those with a race history, needing a documented provenance for the future.

As someone pointed out the other day, other than the engine builder, who really knows what is under the bonnet, how old it is and even what the cubic capacity is? If it is indeed chocolate fish racing...

I'm sure many have gone through the 14 page CoD application and been unable to answer some of the required questions honestly.

Arthur Vowles (previous co-ordinator) has for a long time championed changes to the system that have been totally ignored, especially for those in the early stages of racing a car that they may later develop. If the CoD has any validity at all, then those updates need documenting in a simplified and cost free format.

Some items in the T & C rules are so petty as to be laughable and do not even reflect what actually happened in period.

As just about all classes at local meetings are now 'Series Classes', then the real power is in "Series Rules", not T & C.

Yes, I know I sound like a long playing record stuck in a groove, but whereas Schedule 'K' has some validity for many cars, certainly Appendix K doesn't cover some of the cars being raced today, because they weren't homologated at the time.

I have given up debating the validity of T & C with the H & C Committee, but as long as the cars have somewhere to race amongst like runners or even those vastly different, and the drivers don't employ dodgem car tactics, all is sweet, north and south of the Bombays.

[Spgeti]

For myself Ray I am here to promote Historic Saloon Car racing using the MSNZ rules as per Appendix 6.
I personally agree with these rules and I am not going to enter into a discussion regarding the validity of these rules on this thread.
I have a job to do to which I believe is in the best benefit for those that want to be part of this.
We are all entitled to our opinion and where we want to go with motorsport and I and some like myself want to go down this road and as Steve has stated before it will take time. Rome was not built in a day....
I am not here to preach but to offer and assist those that want to race there Pre 78 Saloons in an Historic group.....and be part of Historic racing be it here or overseas.
I have the deepest respect for what you and your predessors have done and also for the other like groups in the country, but it is not the direction I want to go.

Cheers

[Steve Holmes]

Bruce's (Spgeti) beautiful Alfa Guila, which has been built to T&C rules, and has a COD.

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[AMCO72]

Are bumpers optional extras on race cars? I thought T & C says 'fully trimmed'.

[Spgeti]

Hi Gerald, The car has an A pass COD and the 105's were raced in period without bumpers as Arthur has been to great lengths to validate. The car is fully upholstered inside and still runs the factory brake set up etc.
I could say I was lucky.....

[AMCO72]

Thank you........just asking.......is a cracking looking machine. I had a 1750 GTV years ago. Actually had a choice of a 1750 or a 2000.....both at John Martin Motors in Hamilton. I picked the 1750 because I liked the instruments better......bigger dials, upside down needles......silly reason !!!

[Spgeti]

Thank you Gerald....built by Peter Beck in Palmerston North who fashioned it of his car that ran for years in the Le Mans racing at Puke and the Wellington Street Race .....even has the half cage out of it.
I have had a lot of support from Alfa Romeo Owners Club over the years and in particular Arthur and Bill and the club down here in the sunny Manawatu...

I can't wait to be part of the Festival.

Cheers

Bruce

[John McKechnie]

Luv the fuel filler, really looks the business, like the wide guzzling Ozzie beer cans !!!!!!!!!!
Got a good Alfa joke to share with you Oct 3

[Spgeti]

Thanks John, actually a Cobra/Shelby replica from Speedway motors. Fashioned after the GTA and GTAm tanks. Tank uprated to a Berlina 55 litre and why .....because I like it !!
Look forward to catch up John

[Spgeti]

Thank you........just asking.......is a cracking looking machine. I had a 1750 GTV years ago. Actually had a choice of a 1750 or a 2000.....both at John Martin Motors in Hamilton. I picked the 1750 because I liked the instruments better......bigger dials, upside down needles......silly reason !!!

Not silly Gerald...nice cars fullstop.

[Steve Holmes]

Thank you........just asking.......is a cracking looking machine. I had a 1750 GTV years ago. Actually had a choice of a 1750 or a 2000.....both at John Martin Motors in Hamilton. I picked the 1750 because I liked the instruments better......bigger dials, upside down needles......silly reason !!!

Bloody hell Gerald, you seem to have owned at least one of everything over the years! I guess your total car ownership must be well into the hundreds? Are there any you wish you still had now?

[ERC]

Are bumpers optional extras on race cars? I thought T & C says 'fully trimmed'.

As per PM to Bruce! The T & C rules state full exterior trim - then add period modifications are allowed... Which is it? Personally, I like the look without bumpers, but the annual MG Whittakers Manfeild were always insistent that bumpers must be fitted.

We had the same issue with a well known BMC car some years ago. MSNZ book said on one page, that heads and blocks must be of original material. Next page, period mods allowed which - equals a crossflow alloy head. The whole point about written rules is that they shouldn't contradict themselves.

I note that the current Academy Austin A30/35 series in the UK allows fibreglass bumpers (and wings) as it recognises the scarcity of decent original trim and panels. If they can't find the bits for a Brit car in Britain, what chance do we have here? It isn't done for a performance advantage, it is often because the originals are pitted, bent and rusty. If they are immaculate, they stay under the bench. One of several areas where T & C doesn't reflect the reality of running an older car in what can be a 46 car grid and where sooner or later, panel damage is inevitable.

This is why more and more people are opting to run more modern cars as trim, particularly original, not repo, should not be risked on the track. A Peugeot 205 or a BMW is a lot easier to keep looking smart than 40, 50, 60 year old cars, but what would you rather see racing?

[Steve Holmes]

Another HSC racer. This is Bob Hyslop's fantastic little Mazda RX2, which sounds just as good as it looks. Bob himself has a long motorsport career, and impressively, has owned this car since 1974.

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[Oldfart]

I note that the current Academy Austin A30/35 series in the UK allows fibreglass bumpers (and wings) as it recognises the scarcity of decent original trim and panels. If they can't find the bits for a Brit car in Britain, what chance do we have here? It isn't done for a performance advantage, it is often because the originals are pitted, bent and rusty. If they are immaculate, they stay under the bench. One of several areas where T & C doesn't reflect the reality of running an older car in what can be a 46 car grid and where sooner or later, panel damage is inevitable.
Above pinched from Ray's post a few back. As I have spent some time talking with both Motobuild, who supply many of the bits for the Academy cars, and Julius Thurgood, the promoter, perhaps I can offer some insight. Julius "club" the Historic Racing Drivers Club (HRDC) which promotes these and others is not a club at all. It's a group owned by Julius, which buys track time from the circuits and promotes races. If you want to compete, you join the "club" and agree to play by his rules.
He, much like Ray (ERC) is very pragmatic, the cars comply with his rules, and those necessary with the MSA, or you don't take part. I asked when I was with him if there are things which I could learn from, ie if he had it over again are there rules/guidelines which he would change. He gave that quite some thought before replying, that not really. Always someone will push the boundaries to go faster, and he has the mechanism to rein that in to keep the racing close, and if that means he may move the goalposts at the end of a season, so be it. One thing he did say is to include in the guidelines, that if you are going to explore something somewhat loophole like, then be prepared to change it back. In other words, never go so far that you can not revert to nearer standard.
In regards the Academy cars, they are in effect a "one design classic race car", sealed engine, gearbox, specified cage, suspension package etc. If you don't want to buy in to that, just don't bother to become part of it. It must be working as the group only started last winter (UK) and they now have , ironically, 35 A35s on the books. I can't see why they would need anything like the respective schedules. Bumpers Ray, I guess there are not a lot of good straight ones around so the f'glass is a good option. Given UK glass they are pretty heavy, although certainly lighter than the chrome versions. These cars are all presented to a fabulous standard, as good as any of the Historic Muscle cars I have seen.
Back on thread, I wonder why some of the Historic Saloons at Icebreaker (how many?) were so denigrating about other classes small fields :)

[Steve Holmes]

Re the bumpers, I think with the huge worldwide restoration market, bumpers are now being reproduced for many popular makes and models. Some of the rarer low volume vehicles will always be a problem. But for high volume cars where there is a large worldwide restoration market, repro bumpers are often cheaper than sourcing originals. They aren't always of the same quality, but this is less of an issue with a race car than a restored road car. This is certainly the case with some of the early American Mustangs and Camaros etc.

In the case of Austin A30/35, repro bumpers are available, but they're also expensive, which is, I'm guessing, why fibreglass replacements are allowed instead: http://www.bumperworld.eu/bumpers/austin-/s/744

[John McKechnie]

When I was running pre-65 in 1992 we were told no fibreglass guards as having these cheap, easy replaceable items would make everyone careless about car contact

[Spgeti]

Companies such as Classic Alfa in the UK have a wide range of bumpers and accessories for many models of Alfas.
A front bumper set including over riders is UK 395 Pound for my model Alfa.
Mini bumpers are also available from Mini Spares in the UK.

[ERC]

As I said earlier, repro stuff is available - for popular or relatively high volume cars, but I think we proved at the 2015 Festival, that with 1980 laps completed, just one car to car ding (after a spin) and one driver put himself in the wall, that fibreglass panels or bumpers aren't really an issue.

Even fibreglass items aren't exactly cheap and again, not readily available for low volume cars. Bruce's quote above merely confirms it. Personally, I'd rather see someone spend that amount of money on a modern, proven neck restraint and run fibreglass bumpers - or no bumpers at all.

Set of front quarterlight rubbers for the Magnette, $300 NZ plus shipping. Rechromed (exchange) radiator grille $800 plus shipping both ways. Exchange front bumper (in good condition) plus shipping both ways $400. For the Magnette, I've made my own fibreglass bumpers and they will be chrome vinyl wrapped and therefore will look original. Why is that an issue with T & C?

Others I know have painted fibreglass bumpers, but at the end of the day, the more rules and restrictions you put in, the fewer drivers you will attract. Hence the pragmatism.

As Rhys says, we can tighten the rules at any time if we so desire, but the time to do that is when grids are overfull. We have made it quite clear to drivers with cars that are marginal, either by virtue of fixtures and fittings or even age, that they will be the first to be dropped off if we are over subscribed.

I totally dispute that drivers who think that running with non-compliant cars raises the risk of panel damage, and would happily point them to the Festival, where compliant cars were in fact damaged in other groups. That is the risk of racing. I'm sure I am not the only one who has suffered damage, some of it very extensive, through a 'racing incident', no fault of mine. It is up to series or class organisers to enforce good driving standards and rule on guilty drivers as appropriate. We have had to do it and over the last 20 years, just 2 drivers have been excluded; 1 had a temporary suspension; about 5 or 6 have had warnings - usually for turning in on an overtaking driver. Overall, not exactly a bad score for generally decent grids and two race groups.

Whilst I admire the purity or adherence to a published set of rules, or an era, it is always going to be a numbers game and we know already that costs are going to escalate locally and only those clubs owning their own track, as opposed to hiring them, will be able to keep entry fees to a reasonable level, so even regular drivers will be paying more. That in itself is going to reduce entries, particularly amongst the oldies or retirees who are already finding it tough.

That raises another issue. Why can't over 65's get a cheaper race licence? I'm hedging on not renewing after this season. Financially forced retirement is now definitely on the cards. Maybe one of the clubs could put a remit in to conference?

[John McKechnie]

Ray- is it possible to put a simple memory up without it being turned into a points scoring effort for the wheel barrow you are pushing ?

[ERC]

Fair point John. But I want classes to succeed...

[Steve Holmes]

Another one. This is Bill Ritchie's gorgeous 1966 Alfa Guilia 4 door sedan, complete with COD. Bill has jumped on board with Bruce Dyer to help run Historic Saloon Cars. I believe Bill has done some historic racing in Europe as well? Bruce?

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[Spgeti]

Yes, Bill has raced in Europe some years ago. I will see if he can put words into writing as it is an interesting in site to Historic Racing over there.

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks Bruce.

[Shoreboy57]

Another one. This is Bill Ritchie's gorgeous 1966 Alfa Guilia 4 door sedan, complete with COD. Bill has jumped on board with Bruce Dyer to help run Historic Saloon Cars. I believe Bill has done some historic racing in Europe as well? Bruce?

30466

Great to see the pics of the HSC cars Steve. Makes a nice break from the rules debate (which is still important) on the thread.

[Steve Holmes]

Great to see the pics of the HSC cars Steve. Makes a nice break from the rules debate (which is still important) on the thread.

Thanks! Glad you're enjoying them.

[Steve Holmes]

This is Dennis McConnell's stunning MkI Escort, which has become a regular with HMC/HSC the last couple of seasons. This is a Schedule K car, with the forest flares and period correct 13" diameter wheels, and has a COD. This car can regularly be found battling amongst the V8s.

Paint scheme is reminiscent of that on the famous Paul Fahey Alan Mann Racing Escort.

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[Steve Holmes]

John Dennehy will be running the awesome and insanely fast Halliday brothers Escort with HSC/HMC at the 2016 New Zealand Festival of Motor Racing.

This car has a long and distinguished career, starting life as a 1300cc road car which Don and Rob Halliday converted into a race car in 1969. It started its racing career with a 1600cc Lotus twin-cam unit. This then made way for a BDA motor in 1971. It also featured several different colour schemes, the most well known being the brilliant New Zealand Freighters red/white.

In 1974, the Escort was sold to Alan Woolfe, who completely rebuilt it, fitting a BDG motor that was apparently stretched out to 2100cc, while it was also put on a diet, and fitted with box-style rear flares for wider wheels.

After a few more owners, the Escort was purchased by Jeff Clare off John Harcourt in 1997. Harcourt had actually fitted the Escort with a Rover V8 in the early 1980s, to contest the OSCA series. It was Jeff who spent five years restoring the car back to its circa 1971/72 Halliday guise, refitting it with a 1600cc BDA motor, and returning all the bodywork to the correct Group 5 style with the forest flares.

John Dennehy eventually purchased the Escort off Jeff, and opted for a more powerful BDG motor. One of Johns problems has been finding treaded tyres for the car, which still runs the very wide rear wheels as used during its Woolf era. Roger Kraus Racing in the US was able to make a set for John a couple of years ago, by cutting a treaded pattern into a set of bias-ply slicks. These eventually wore out, so John has just ordered another set from Roger Kraus.

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[Steve Holmes]

Neville 'Hillsy' Hills owns this fantastic MkII Escort Schedule K car. Neville actually began his racing career back in the 1960s in a Ford Anglia. He used to knock around with Jim Richards, and crewed for Red Dawson for a time. He raced his Anglia at various tracks, including the short-lived Paritutu street course in New Plymouth. Being a Taranaki boy, this was right in his backyard.

Having stopped racing for many years, Neville had been slowly building a Ford Anglia for historic racing when he heard about this Escort, and bought it. And he is having fun! As he said, "I should have done this years ago".

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[Steve Holmes]

Another great Japanese addition to HSC. This is Mike Coory's beautiful Datsun 240K. This car was originally built and raced by long-time Datsun racer Don McLean, before it was purchased by Mike a year or two back. I believe this car will be running with HSC at the Pukekohe TACCOC event on October 3.

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[Steve Holmes]

Love this one! Pat Excell and his fantastic Ford Anglia. Built to T&C, and has a COD.

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[Spgeti]

Pat's Anglia is a NZ dealer installed new 1500GT and still has it's dealer sticker on it.

[AMCO72]

Well, there you go, it seems not all Anglias have been swallowed up and wrecked in pre65 racing. Might get a few returning to the fold.

[Spgeti]

We have another one down here run by Bill Cottle from Levin. Standard body and out to 1760 I think Gerald. Aren't they a delight to see?

[Frosty5]

We have another one down here run by Bill Cottle from Levin. Standard body and out to 1760 I think Gerald. Aren't they a delight to see?

Yes Bruce, they are a delight to see. My Dad had a '65 as a company car, red and I wanted to buy it when the council put it up for tender but alas, some people had more coin that I had at the time and Dad wasn't all that keen on a 16 yr old hooning around race tracks. But was able to sneak the odd ride with it without him knowing and it was good.
Dave Graham

[Steve Holmes]

I hope Ellis French doesn't mind me posting this photo here. This isn't an HSC car. In fact, this car was built and races in Australia. Its owned by Don Green.

This beautiful Jaguar was one of the very first Group N historic touring cars built in Australia, and actually contested the very first historic Group N touring car race, which took place way back in 1981.

Back then, Group N was known as Appendix J, and had a cut-off date of December 31, 1964. Since then, the CAMS controlled and policed historic category has expanded into three divisions:

Group Na: for cars commercially available in Australia prior to December 31, 1957
Group Nb: the for-mentioned Appendix J
Group Nc: for cars of a make and model that competed in Australia between January 1, 1965, and December 31, 1972, in the ATCC, or in Series Production.

Since that first race that took place in 1981, more than 1,000 cars have been built and registered for Historic Group N.

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[Roger Dowding]

I hope Ellis French doesn't mind me posting this photo here. This isn't an HSC car. In fact, this car was built and races in Australia. Its owned by Don Green.

This beautiful Jaguar was one of the very first Group N historic touring cars built in Australia, and actually contested the very first historic Group N touring car race, which took place way back in 1981.

Back then, Group N was known as Appendix J, and had a cut-off date of December 31, 1964. Since then, the CAMS controlled and policed historic category has expanded into three divisions:

Group Na: for cars commercially available in Australia prior to December 31, 1957
Group Nb: the for-mentioned Appendix J
Group Nc: for cars of a make and model that competed in Australia between January 1, 1965, and December 31, 1972, in the ATCC, or in Series Production.

Since that first race that took place in 1981, more than 1,000 cars have been built and registered for Historic Group N.

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I would like a garage like that, especially if it came with a Jaguar like that, stripes, side pipes, very David Silcock.

[Kiwiboss]

I hope Ellis French doesn't mind me posting this photo here. This isn't an HSC car. In fact, this car was built and races in Australia. Its owned by Don Green.

This beautiful Jaguar was one of the very first Group N historic touring cars built in Australia, and actually contested the very first historic Group N touring car race, which took place way back in 1981.

Back then, Group N was known as Appendix J, and had a cut-off date of December 31, 1964. Since then, the CAMS controlled and policed historic category has expanded into three divisions:

Group Na: for cars commercially available in Australia prior to December 31, 1957
Group Nb: the for-mentioned Appendix J
Group Nc: for cars of a make and model that competed in Australia between January 1, 1965, and December 31, 1972, in the ATCC, or in Series Production.

Since that first race that took place in 1981, more than 1,000 cars have been built and registered for Historic Group N.

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Imagine if the NZ Historic and Classic Commission had the foresight to do this when the Aussie's did, all the good period correct cars we'd have today!! instead of the mish mash hybred hotrods we currently have country wide, shame really! I'd luv to see cars like the fantastic Jaguar still out racing in period guise.

Dale M

[AMCO72]

Steve, your comment, amongst others that said....'CAMS controlled and POLICED' historic catergory sounds a bit ominous!! Is everyone in Australia in love with CAMS as much as folk here in NZ. When we start using words like 'policed' I get very nervous. Easy to be wise now and say we in NZ should have followed Australia's lead. We could, with some will, have a similar breakdown of classes here, but is going to upset a few people. But then too-bad.......someone is going to get upset no matter what you do......even if you do nothing !!!!!

[Steve Holmes]

Steve, your comment, amongst others that said....'CAMS controlled and POLICED' historic catergory sounds a bit ominous!! Is everyone in Australia in love with CAMS as much as folk here in NZ. When we start using words like 'policed' I get very nervous. Easy to be wise now and say we in NZ should have followed Australia's lead. We could, with some will, have a similar breakdown of classes here, but is going to upset a few people. But then too-bad.......someone is going to get upset no matter what you do......even if you do nothing !!!!!

Hi Gerald, I would say CAMS is viewed with about as much love as MSNZ is in New Zealand! When using the term 'policed', its really just that. There are a set of rules, and racers build cars to those rules. And CAMS are present at events to make sure nobody is cheating. Its much like the way historic racing is run in the UK and Europe.

As for the rules themselves, there is no way they could ever be adopted in NZ now. That will never happen. I believe Appendix J are very similar to FIA Appendix K Group 2 rules for pre-1965 touring cars that are in widespread use throughout the UK and Europe, and several cars have been bought and sold between Australia and UK/Europe. Likewise, Australian competitors have been able to take their cars to race in the UK/Europe.

Group Nc rules are not 100% period correct, and are very much focused on Australian history. Only cars that contested an ATCC race through to the end of 1972, or contested Series Production races are eligible. Furthermore, the rules themselves fall somewhere between the Improved Production (think Allan Moffats Mustang, Norm Beecheys Monaro etc), and Series Production (the bog-standard cars such as the Falcon GTHOs and Torana XU1s etc that raced at Bathurst through until 1972) as a sort of happy medium. So for example, a 1969 Mustang is eligible, because Allan Moffat raced one of these in period, but a 1970 Mustang is not, because nobody raced one of these. Obviously this would never work in NZ.

Are the rules universally loved by all historic racers in Australia? Definitely not. No matter what the class, be it Formula 1, NASCAR, V8 Supercars, Singsong Utes, or historic racing, you'll always have people who want more from the rules. But, the CAMS Group N historic touring car rules are extremely clear. Its very black and white. The rules are the rules, everyone just accepts them and gets on with it. No one person has to worry about policing the rules like class representatives do in NZ. Its all done by CAMS. The cars themselves have a virtually unlimited life-span, because the rules don't change, and therefore, the cars don't really evolve. The Jaguar pictured above is a prime example. So this helps control costs.

No, its not the perfect scenario, but it does work very well in other countries.

[Kiwiboss]

Here is few pictures from yesterdays TACCOC one day meeting at Pukekohe, great support from the HSC group giving several HMC cars a hard time in the wet conditions at the start of the day with Bob Hyslop qualifying 4th amongst the fast HMC cars!! many thanks to Bruce Dyer making the trip all the way up from Fielding to help gather interest in the HSC cars as he is now the HSC director with support from myself, Tony Roberts and Steve Holmes. Another couple more on-board including Tony Herbert in his beautiful Alfa, Tony was one of the original instigators of the COD system way back and was very interested in seeing this has been picked it up in both HMC and HSC.

Pat Excel's beautiful 105E Anglia, Tony Herbert's Alfa, Mike Coory's Datsun 240K and Nev "Hillsy" Hills Mk 2 Escort.

[Kiwiboss]

From left Mike Coory, Pat Excel and wife and Hillsy Hills make there plan of attack on the V8 HMC cars!!

[Steve Holmes]

Here is few pictures from yesterdays TACCOC one day meeting at Pukekohe, great support from the HSC group giving several HMC cars a hard time in the wet conditions at the start of the day with Bob Hyslop qualifying 4th amongst the fast HMC cars!! many thanks to Bruce Dyer making the trip all the way up from Fielding to help gather interest in the HSC cars as he is now the HSC director with support from myself, Tony Roberts and Steve Holmes. Another couple more on-board including Tony Herbert in his beautiful Alfa, Tony was one of the original instigators of the COD system way back and was very interested in seeing this has been picked it up in both HMC and HSC.

Pat Excel's beautiful 105E Anglia, Tony Herbert's Alfa, Mike Coory's Datsun 240K and Nev "Hillsy" Hills Mk 2 Escort.

I think this was my favorite car of the whole event.

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[Grant Sprague]

Sounds good ...... & great info .... tell me pls how does this mk 1 BDG go in lap times compared to the front running V8 ,s
Thanks guys ..... Grant

[Kiwiboss]

Sounds good ...... & great info .... tell me pls how does this mk 1 BDG go in lap times compared to the front running V8 ,s
Thanks guys ..... Grant

They were quick in the day so they'll be quick now and as always Grant, depends on whos driving it :)

[Steve Holmes]

I assume Grant is referring to the Don Halliday Escort owned by John Dennehy as pictured on the previous page? This car wasn't at Pukekohe on the weekend.

[Grant Sprague]

Thank you Gerald & Dale ....... good point ...from both ..... no disrespect to any drivers ... at all ...but would be good to get a back to back ......say for eg Dale driving the Mustang then driving the escort . [comparison] ... yep they were pretty close mind you Pauls was FVC,,,,if you can get the Escorts in between the front running V8,s that would be a BIG BONUS for the class .... & woooow would it take off

[Grant Sprague]

Steve, I am trying to get a handle on a BDG time difference to the front running V8,s .... I have not collected enough info to find the answer , that mk 1 here above its BDG ???? [not sure] but reads that way

[Kiwiboss]

Thank you Gerald & Dale ....... good point ...from both ..... no disrespect to any drivers ... at all ...but would be good to get a back to back ......say for eg Dale driving the Mustang then driving the escort . [comparison] ... yep they were pretty close mind you Pauls was FVC,,,,if you can get the Escorts in between the front running V8,s that would be a BIG BONUS for the class .... & woooow would it take off

Grant, the V8's were always faster back in the day under perfect conditions, its just they often broke allowing the small cars to take advantage and been NZ with our flip flop weather conditions add a little of that wet stuff and the small cars were GONE. I actually had a race like that at one for the Festivals with Angus Fogg in the Amco mini and the crowd luv'd it so like any racing its really "Race by Race" come what may

[Spgeti]

Well what a great day of racing and friendship. The weather did not stop the enjoyment and my thanks goes out to all the drivers of HMC/HSC for their respect of the conditions and no damage and only huge smiles. Take a bow guy's.

We had a great field of all sorts. John Ure in his beautiful Series I XJ12 SWB....one of 700 odd made, Pat Excell out in his 1500 GT Anglia for the first time at Pukekohe...he has still got that grin from ear to ear. Mike Coory in the thundering Datsun 240K, Hillsy in the rapid Mk 11 Escort trying hard to keep the V8s honest followed by John Sampson in his beautifully prepared Capri RS2600. Bob Hyslop wanted a bit more wet to show off his skills in the slippery stuff in the historic RX2. Ken and Peter Northin were hard at it in their immaculate Mk1 and Mk11 Escorts. Darron Curphey was doing double duty in the flying Fiat 131R and enjoyed being out amongst the big boys.

Thanks guys for your support and commitment.

Cheers
Bruce

[Steve Holmes]

Historic Saloon Cars look to be heading to Manfield in 2016, with plans to run alongside Historic Muscle Cars at the 2016 MG Classic. Lots of time to prepare, drum up interest, and work on putting on a great show for the punters.

[Max Headroom]

Surprisingly, there is nothing on MyLaps for this event.?????????/ So Grant and I would like an answer to the question......what were this cars times round Puke, and for comparison some times for the HMC cars would be nice. A fair question I think......the driver is immaterial......the time for this driver would be fine. Thanks.

From my laps, over the last few meetings at Puke & Hampton Downs, the top HMC cars are doing 1:15's and the U3L HSC are doing 1:19 / 1:20's You can throw a blanket over me, Jonh Dennehy, Hillsy and John Sampson, depends on the day who is quicker, but we are all usually within a second of each other. A couple of the HMC cars are in the 1:13's at HD. So I'm guessing that's similar to back in the day when I watched these races as a 5 -6 yr old at Puke on the long back straight. May have been a bigger difference then due to the HMC cars running off down the long straight. Wet conditions it's almost a level playing field, probably a bit in favour of the HSC cars.

[Kiwiboss]

From my laps, over the last few meetings at Puke & Hampton Downs, the top HMC cars are doing 1:15's and the U3L HSC are doing 1:19 / 1:20's You can throw a blanket over me, Jonh Dennehy, Hillsy and John Sampson, depends on the day who is quicker, but we are all usually within a second of each other. A couple of the HMC cars are in the 1:13's at HD. So I'm guessing that's similar to back in the day when I watched these races as a 5 -6 yr old at Puke on the long back straight. May have been a bigger difference then due to the HMC cars running off down the long straight. Wet conditions it's almost a level playing field, probably a bit in favour of the HSC cars.

Great post Kerry, you pretty much got it summed up!! Sure the faster HMC cars are up front but the same can be done with a MK1 Escort if one wanted to spend the time and $$$, I always thought "Cubic Capacity" won out but as John McKechnie has posted "Cubic Money" beats out any day, guess I've been doing it all wrong, LOL.

Anyway, the attached pic shows what both HMC and HSC are all about, recreating our fabulous Saloon car history, and our Hoosier bias tyre gives the same slipage angle as Dennis and Paul have going on here. (Courtesy of Facebook, and whom ever owns this pic)

PS: I always luv looking at he safety fencing back then, and the cars weren't slugs either!!

Dale M

[John McKechnie]

Johnny Riley found that using the rear end of a Camaro was the way to gate crash the spectators.
Entries are now open for the Historic Tin Top class TACCOC Nov 1st and the chance to see John Dennehy and Glenn Ellingham in their similar cars with the same angles.

[Spgeti]

Johnny Riley found that using the rear end of a Camaro was the way to gate crash the spectators.
Entries are now open for the Historic Tin Top class TACCOC Nov 1st and the chance to see John Dennehy and Glenn Ellingham in their similar cars with the same angles.

I am coming up to the TACCOC Summer Meeting to support John and Dave.

looking forward to catching up with a few more of the HMC/HSC guys.

Any of you that want to catch up with me send me a PM or email bruced105@gmail.com.
I have a couple meetings planned but will make time for others.

Bill Ritchie and I will also be at this years MG Classic at Manfeild on the 14/15th November to support any of the HMC/HSC guys as well.

I have today just viewed Julian Hardy's beautiful little Datsun 1200SSS who is joining us and looking forward to being at Manfeild in 2016.
Julian's car has a COD as well.

Cheers
Bruce

[John McKechnie]

Look forward to seeing you again Bruce.
Just to remind everyone again about this-
Sunday November 1 TACCOC has given Historic Sports Sedans a grid- 3 races.
We have invited Historic Muscle cars to come along and run with us to enjoy the day
That is why I am unofficially calling this a Historic Tin Top class.
Great for newcomers ,those that didnt make the IceBreaker and some , like myself, who didnt make it through to the end of the day.
Get some skids in, have fun, and make sure the car is right for next Jan.
Contact TACCOC to make sure you are entered.

[Steve Holmes]

Latest addition to Historic Saloon Cars is Julian Hardey's 1974 Datsun 1200SSS. Julian has owned the car since 1998. Its built to T&C rules, and has COD.

It runs an A12 motor to 1,380cc, twin 45 Dellortos, 13" wheels etc. A neat little car. These were hugely popular race cars in period. Rarely seen these days.

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[Steve Holmes]

Great to have Rayden Smith confirm today he plans to enter the 2016 Gulf Festival with Historic Saloon Cars.

This is another hugely important piece of New Zealand motorsport history, being the Willment Racing Escort twin-cam purchased by Jim Carney out of the UK in 1969 for the young Jim Richards to race. JR was a sensation in this car, which really helped put him on the map, and greatly increased his future prospects. He won the 4.2 NZ Saloon Car Championship at least once with this car, battling most years with Don Halliday in the Escort owned now by John Dennehy (as featured earlier in this thread). An awesome piece of kit.

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[Spgeti]

Latest addition to Historic Saloon Cars is Julian Hardey's 1974 Datsun 1200SSS. Julian has owned the car since 1998. Its built to T&C rules, and has COD.

It runs an A12 motor to 1,380cc, twin 45 Dellortos, 13" wheels etc. A neat little car. These were hugely popular race cars in period. Rarely seen these days.

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Great to have Julian on board.
The 1200 beside it was his Dads and he owns it. Nice to owns ones heritage.
Welcome Julian.....

[Spgeti]

Great to have Rayden Smith confirm today he plans to enter the 2016 Gulf Festival with Historic Saloon Cars.

This is another hugely important piece of New Zealand motorsport history, being the Willment Racing Escort twin-cam purchased by Jim Carney out of the UK in 1969 for the young Jim Richards to race. JR was a sensation in this car, which really helped put him on the map, and greatly increased his future prospects. He won the 4.2 NZ Saloon Car Championship at least once with this car, battling most years with Don Halliday in the Escort owned now by John Dennehy (as featured earlier in this thread). An awesome piece of kit.

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This is a privilege to have Rayden on board with his historic Escort.
I, in a distant way have a connection to this car. Jim Carney was my fathers boss when he worked at NZ Refinery at Marsden Point.
He was in my Dads words a very nice man.

Welcome Raydon and your beautiful historic Escort

[Spgeti]

It has been a few weeks since I last posted on the HSC Thread.

Last week I attended the TACCOC Summer Meeting. Beautiful weather and a really nice long weekend.
Busy from arriving with a meeting with Dave Graham, our COD Auditor, and Keith Hardgrave our Technical Auditor. It was great to put a face to the name and as Dave said " who's in the Zoo"...Just to make sure we are on the same page.

Good to catch up with Dale and John and what a sight of seeing the HSS guy's out there with the HMC guy's on a rolling start.

Special thanks to John Dennahy for allowing us to carry out a COD Audit on his beautiful historic Halliday Escort.

Enjoyed catching up with Dale in Tauranga on the way home on Monday and looking at his new premises.

Congratulations to Grant Sprague on the purchasing of a very nice Mk1 Ford Escort RS2000 who is joining us.
Looking forward to seeing you at the Festival Grant....nice car but Dale will always be quicker....cubes
Grant's Esky has a COD so that makes me smile...:p

The Festival is only around the corner so guy's lets get the cars ready as I did today and get those COD's in to me.

Cheers
Bruce

[John McKechnie]

Bruce- cubes.... now would that be cubic inches or cubic cash ?

[Spgeti]

Inches John .......Thou I did enjoy watching that little Starlet last weekend...great show John and very special.

[ERC]

Just in case you missed it, #718 on my "Mix of Pics " thread has one of every car in the group that ran in practice.

Good to see a decent sized grid. Sorry, I didn't manage to catch much of the actual racing on the day - the downside of having an official Series involvement in a meeting with work to do!

Cheers,

Ray

[Spgeti]

The photos are fantastic Ray. Many thanks.

Sorry I was like you really busy but what a great day for it all.

Cheers

[Spgeti]

It has been a while since I have updated HSC.

We have had a few new people join our group.

Ist up is Grant Sprague having purchased Lex Linklaters Mk 1 Escort RS2000.

Next is Layton Hammond from the Manawatu buying Bill Cottle's 1966 Anglia.

Today Natalie Campbell again from the Manawatu with her lovely 1973 Capri V63000 has also expressed interest in being part of our group.

I wish to pass on our welcome to the above and just to note that all cars have COD's.

Both Nat and Layton have raced with myself at Manfeild in the Winter Series and MG and it is great to have them on board.

Grant comes from a famous saloon car family and welcome Grant, it is great to have you on board.

Cheers,

Bruce D

[Steve Holmes]

This is the latest car to join the HSC ranks. This is Natalie Campbell's 1973 Ford Capri GT V6. Its been a classic race car for many years, and has had a CoD for many years, although this will be updated. Runs 13" Hotwire wheels, Austin Pricess 4-pot brakes up front and Capri drums at the rear. Also runs a LSD from a 2.8 Capri. Beautiful car.

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[Spgeti]

The Red Anglia was Bill Cottle's from Levin and is now owned by Layton Hammond from Marton. Layton has also joined our group.

Welcome to Natalie and Layton.

Both cars have COD's and Layton wants to be at the Festival but also needs to test the Anglia first.

[Steve Holmes]

Here is the beautiful Anglia Bruce refers to above. Good to see some of these cars in the group. Anglia's have played a significant role in NZ racing history, with a great many drivers getting their start in racing in the 1960s and '70s in one of these cars.

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[Steve Holmes]

This is Scott O'Donnell's beautiful Alfa GTAm replica, from Invercargill, which will be joining the HSC ranks for both weekends of the 2016 Festival. The Alfa is a Schedule K car, running 2.0 litre with 48 Webers, 13 x 8 and 13 x 9 Campagnolo wheels, sliding block rear suspension etc. An amazing little car.

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[Grant Sprague]

It has been a while since I have updated HSC.

We have had a few new people join our group.

Ist up is Grant Sprague having purchased Lex Linklaters Mk 1 Escort RS2000.

Next is Layton Hammond from the Manawatu buying Bill Cottle's 1966 Anglia.

Today Natalie Campbell again from the Manawatu with her lovely 1973 Capri V63000 has also expressed interest in being part of our group.

I wish to pass on our welcome to the above and just to note that all cars have COD's.

Both Nat and Layton have raced with myself at Manfeild in the Winter Series and MG and it is great to have them on board.

Grant comes from a famous saloon car family and welcome Grant, it is great to have you on board.

Cheers,

Bruce D

Thank you Bruce, happy to be apart of HMC.....although a little escort .with glass, steel panels, seats etc . I notice every thing is small compared to the last car I raced which makes life a bit easier, every thing quite basic & easy...Bob & Grady have my cylinder head fitting correct springs something I would normally do, but being a little roller cam thought I would best leave it to them , springs coming from other mate Kev [Kelfords] , when head back on other mate Grant Fitzpatrick will fit a good shift light & bigger oil warning light only concern will be the right hander with a wet sump but not been a problem any other circut, entered for the 2nd weekend H/D Bruce got me our old family race number 63 .... Gary had on bread van anglia , Ernie on GTHO, & me on Fiat GTX fiat in 70,s. &Pete on his go cart &FF Our class I have been told is about having fun so thats what we want , just lovely old cars

[Steve Holmes]

Thank you Bruce, happy to be apart of HMC.....although a little escort .with glass, steel panels, seats etc . I notice every thing is small compared to the last car I raced which makes life a bit easier, every thing quite basic & easy...Bob & Grady have my cylinder head fitting correct springs something I would normally do, but being a little roller cam thought I would best leave it to them , springs coming from other mate Kev [Kelfords] , when head back on other mate Grant Fitzpatrick will fit a good shift light & bigger oil warning light only concern will be the right hander with a wet sump but not been a problem any other circut, entered for the 2nd weekend H/D Bruce got me our old family race number 63 .... Gary had on bread van anglia , Ernie on GTHO, & me on Fiat GTX fiat in 70,s. &Pete on his go cart &FF Our class I have been told is about having fun so thats what we want , just lovely old cars

A lot less bodywork to have to polish on the Escort aye Grant!

[Steve Holmes]

With Historic Saloon Cars racing alongside Historic Muscle Cars at the 2016 NZFMR, the HMC/HSC guys have arranged to have along one of the legends of small-bore saloon car racing, Alan Boyle, who'll be on hand to chat with race fans and sign his poster of his beautiful Coke Viva.

Here is Alan's poster which I've just completed.

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[kiwi285]

Looking forward to that Steve. A great looking poster

[Spgeti]

Fantastic posters Steve.
Looking forward to the Festival and my car is all go after a bit of a torrid time before Christmas.
We have a great line up for the fans in both HMC and HSC.

Cheers
Bruce

[Roger Dowding]

Fantastic posters Steve.
Looking forward to the Festival and my car is all go after a bit of a torrid time before Christmas.
We have a great line up for the fans in both HMC and HSC.

Cheers
Bruce

Good luck guys, sorry cannot get there, someone please post photos for us to enjoy..

Cheers

Roger

[Grant Sprague]

A lot less bodywork to have to polish on the Escort aye Grant!Guna Guna Guna , be having some fun at H/Downs ..............last box was to be ticked when my Cyl [strapped roller head]...was to be completed by bob & Grady with new springs from Kelfords .. BUT was not going to be ..Bob gave me thumbs down Cyl head too risky to run as cracked & not fixable .. PERIOD.... so looking for clean standard 1600 cortina pinto head that Kev @ Kelfords will replicate ......:confused:

[Spgeti]

Guna Guna Guna , be having some fun at H/Downs ..............last box was to be ticked when my Cyl [strapped roller head]...was to be completed by bob & Grady with new springs from Kelfords .. BUT was not going to be ..Bob gave me thumbs down Cyl head too risky to run as cracked & not fixable .. PERIOD.... so looking for clean standard 1600 cortina pinto head that Kev @ Kelfords will replicate ......:confused:

I was nearly gone as well Grant.....workshop accident and then electrical problems etc etc....

But I survived but my issues were timing and not a major.

Looking forward to catch up with you as I know you are still coming less car but you are important to us.

Your family has given a lot of pleasure to us older fans and it is fantastic to have you as part of our group.

Cheers
Bruce

[ERC]

Looking forward to the meeting and especially cars we haven't seen out before - always a high spot for the photographer in me...

I hope the regular Roaring Season posters can catch up, even though we are scattered around between garages, marquees and the paddock. Would be great to say 'Hi' to those we haven't yet met!

Not sure how many pics I'll manage to post, but others will no doubt post a pile Roger.

[Grant Sprague]

Thank you Bruce for kind words .. yep will be there regardless......was offered a complete pinto set up less carbs , etc etc .. was cool that people want to see the car run .. as it is a little gem ...in standard trim .....we will just be patient & get an other cyl head done properly.... & get on with it, you never know Pete the meat might not feel well that weekend lol

[John McKechnie]

Grant- do you mean 1.13.90 Pete the Meat?

[SPman]

With Historic Saloon Cars racing alongside Historic Muscle Cars at the 2016 NZFMR, the HMC/HSC guys have arranged to have along one of the legends of small-bore saloon car racing, Alan Boyle, who'll be on hand to chat with race fans and sign his poster of his beautiful Coke Viva.

Here is Alan's poster which I've just completed.

32458 Is this car still extant?

[AMCO72]

Do you mean does it still exist.........the answer is no. Some pieces of it exist........the rest has gone to the great 'Baked Bean Tin' maker. I am sure Alan will fill everyone in on the details........... if he wants to. :)

[Grant Sprague]

Grant- do you mean 1.13.90 Pete the Meat?The Tauranga one yep that would be him

[4dnut]

Is this car still extant?

I am pretty sure Mike John owns this car. I remember a few years ago seeing the shell being rebuilt, then a while later it finished. I haven't seen it run though.

[Paul Wilkinson]

I am pretty sure Mike John owns this car. I remember a few years ago seeing the shell being rebuilt, then a while later it finished. I haven't seen it run though.

He had it at Ellerslie a couple of years back. I'm pretty sure I was told that it was the original car restored, rather than a recreation.

[John McKechnie]

Mike John also had the ex Allan Moffat Cologne Capri that Gordon Burr still has

[khyndart in CA]

Did Alan Boyle sing with the BeeGees ?

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I have been away too long !
KJH

[Roger Dowding]

Did Alan Boyle sing with the BeeGees ?

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I have been away too long !
KJH

Ken, we all sang with the BeeGees, I had hair that long too !!, back in the seventies.
There is a popular song in Australia called " I'm Living in the Seventies ", and with my posts that would seem right.

and the " I have been away too long ", there is another song " Come Back Again ", another Aussie classic..

[John McKechnie]

Ken-If you can remember tomato being squashed, then you havent
Roger- we Kiwis always sing that well known Aussie ditty about you expats- ..."so where the bloody hell are ya.?"...

[Spgeti]

This weekend we head into the Festival at Hampton Downs and celebrate Porsche.

We have a fantastic grid lining up for both weekends.
In HSC we have by my count 17 entries and is a great cross section of manufacturers and historic cars.
We will join HMC and I understand that they have 20 entries giving us a combined entry of 37 cars.

This will truly represent the period of racing from 1964 to 1977 in this country.

Top billing in HSC are the 2 Historic Escorts, Bod Hyslop's Historic Mazda RX2, Howard Wood, BMW 2002 Tii Group 2 Replica, Poul Christie, Mk 2 Lotus Cortina and from the deep south, Scott O'Donnell in his 1974 Alfa Romeo GTAm Replica.

Added to that is a formidable group of Japanese race cars, Datsun 240K GTR Replica of sponsor Mike Coory, Ian Williamson's rapid Mazda RX2 and Phillip Mills Datsun 1600.
Representing Great Britain is John Ure in his very rare Jaguar XJ12 S1 SWB which has history in racing in the South Island in the late 80's, Sheridan Broadbent in her Mk 2 Cortina GT, Pat Excell in his lovely Anglia 1500GT, Neville Hills in his very quick Mk2 Escort, Geoff sparks in his Triumph Dolomite Sprint, and Clyde Walters in his immaculate Mk3 Cortina 2000
The Germans and Italians are represented by John Hudson in his BMW 2002 and myself in Alfa Romeo GTV2000

What a field and I wish to thank you all for your support for this event.

Some of the above are only racing one weekend but that will give us a grid of 30 approx each weekend.

Look forward to see you all

Cheers
Bruce

[Shoreboy57]

[QUOTE=Spgeti;50931]This weekend we head into the Festival at Hampton Downs and celebrate Porsche.We have a fantastic grid lining up for both weekends.

Well done Bruce and all the HSC crews on the turnout at the Festival. Some excellent cars with plenty of variety and I for one enjoyed watching the Alfas, BMWs Mazda and Fords etc mixing it cleanly with HMC, bringing back memories of the late 60s early 70s. I hope this provides the catalyst for the class to grow further.

[Spgeti]

Thanks for your appreciation. I am glad you and many others enjoyed "the show".

Special thanks needs to go to both HMC and HSC drivers for trying to race but being aware of the other guys and girls out there as well and keeping it clean.

Also thanks to our sponsor Mike Coory from Helfee for his tremendous support over both weekends and also to the Helfee girls who just added that bit of fun and class.

It was also great to have Steve up for the first weekend along with Crunch ( Raymond Bennett) and Ron and Naiomi from MG to join in the fun.

I enjoyed meeting many people over the first weekend and special thanks to the Trofeo boys and girls who came to welcome me to their circuit.

Also to Scott O'Donnell and Rodger Cunninghame from Invercargill.....our overseas guests. Thanks guys.

Cheers and Thanks

Bruce

[ERC]

Didn't realise Crunch was up for the meeting! Missed him. Agree though Bruce. A good turnout with the variety we believe is an essential part of classic racing. Long may it continue. Nice to catch up at long last, albeit briefly.

[Steve Holmes]

Just been sent these photos by Paul McCarthy to add to this thread. This is a car Paul is building/rebuilding to race with HSC. Its a genuine Escort RS1600, and one of the first 100 cars built. Paul bought the Escort when he as just 20 years old, approx 23 years ago, and has owned it ever since!

He built and raced it as a 1971 Group 2 Broadspeed replica, and ran it in historics for several years before then building his Zakspeed replica.

But he has since gone back to focusing on the RS1600, and has been busy rebuilding it as a 1973 Group 2 car (with the slightly more squared flares), based on the similar Broadspeed Escort raced by Andy Rouse in the '73 British Saloon Car Championship.

Motor is a 2.0 litre BDG, with Lucas mechanical fuel-injection, backed by a 4-speed Rocket gearbox, and fitted with 13" Minilite wheels, and closed-back AP brakes.

Paul originally built the car as a Schedule/Appendix K car with paperwork, and the rebuild is also off the FIA Appendix K Homologation Sheet. Going this option, if he chooses to get a Historic Technical Passport for this car he can also race it internationally.

A real cool little car.

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[Spgeti]

Wow....that is fantastic and thanks to Paul for sending the photos thru.

I caught up with him during documentation and I asked him if he would send details of his build as Schedule K for Escorts is of interest to us and Paul is doing it the right way.

I look forward to more of this from any of you building a car for HSC....It helps the knowledge base.

[4dnut]

I am really looking forward to getting this car going again.My enthusiasm about classic car racing has been rekindled with HMC and HSC. I lost interest a while ago when I had to run my correct car against cars with modern engines etc(which is why I built a hotrod). But having a place to play with similar cars is great .

[kiwi285]

Really looking forward to seeing that great car on track soon Paul.

[Spgeti]

Our next race meeting is Legends, at Hampton Downs on 1st, 2nd and 3rd April.
Again we will be joining HMC on the grid and I for one will be coming up to meet and be part of the fun.
If you have any queries regarding this meeting please contact myself bruced105@gmail.com or Dale dmathers@xtra.co.nz
COD's will be required and remember to make sure your car is compliant.

The next large meeting is in November at the MG Classic at Manfeild where we will have our own grid together with HMC and again only compliant cars with COD's will be accepted to join this grid.
Start planning for it and again any queries please email Dale or myself.
We want to put on a good show down at Manfeild so please let us know if you are intending to partake.

Cheers
Bruce

[Grant Sprague]

Looks damn good , great photos etc ........ question = 4 speed rocket G/box I thought would not be man enough for a BDG or have i been given wrong info ? Thanks for sharing plus info ...... Grant

[BMCBOY]

This engine reminds me of Rex Harts escort pictured here

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[Andrew Metford]

Hopefully Paul can start a seperate thread for his build. If it is anything like his Zakspeed, and his old Broadspeed BDG ( which i think this car was? ), it'll be first class.

[Spgeti]

Looks damn good , great photos etc ........ question = 4 speed rocket G/box I thought would not be man enough for a BDG or have i been given wrong info ? Thanks for sharing plus info ...... Grant

This is the issue when you are building a car to Appendix K Grant. You must use what was homologated for that car and in this instance it is either the Rocket box or the ZF 5 speed.

You can not use the type 9 Serria box as it was out of period.

[4dnut]

Looks damn good , great photos etc ........ question = 4 speed rocket G/box I thought would not be man enough for a BDG or have i been given wrong info ? Thanks for sharing plus info ...... Grant

The engine I use is strong and makes the right numbers so from what people suggest gearbox should have been a problem.I used this gearbox for many years, not too many issues. Broke a selector fork and a gearstick, but the internals never gave an issue. Still uses English axle with a semi gloating hub. We broke the Quaife axles every time we used it until we remade them locally, then they managed to last.

[Spgeti]

Our next meeting and last before the winter break is just over a week away. Make sure if you haven't entered to do so as this is a relaxed and fun event. Again we will be joining HMC and together will put on another good showing.
There are a few new racers joining us for this event with different cars.

I am coming up from sunny Feilding for the weekend and looking forward to catching up with you all.

Cheers,
Bruce

[Spgeti]

It has been a while since our last meeting.

It was a wet Legends meeting at HD but we all survived on at sometimes a very slippery track. Good turn out of 9 HSC and 10 HMC cars in total.

We now prepare for our next major meeting which is MG Classic at Mainfeild in November.
This is our first venture to MG and we will run as a combind group in our own grid.
I ask that you support MG as it is a fantastic event and has been running for over 30 years.

I will post our programe for the 2016/7 season for you all to see and plan for.

We also have a Mazda RX3 Coupe jion us and I will give details of this car later.
This is bringing out more Japanesse classics which now totals 6 cars...the more the merrier.

Also joining us is David Thompson in his beautifully restored Auto Trader Mk1 Escort. Details and photos to come.

Cheers
Bruce

[Spgeti]

Current next Seasons 2016/17 Event Dates are :

1, 8th October 2016, TACCOC Classic one day Saturday- Hampton Downs (Bathurst the next day)
2, 11/13th Nov 2016, Wellington MG Car Club Classic-Manfeild (HMC/HSC Only)
3, 27th Nov 2016, TACCOC Classic one day Sunday-Pukekohe
4, 13/15th January 2017, NZFMR Festival Ken Smith-Hampton Downs(ATA over)
5, 20/22nd January 2017, NZFMR Festival Ken Smith-Hampton Downs (ATA over)
6, 10/12th February 2017, Timaru Classic-Levels Timaru( 60 yrs Formula Junior World Tour)
7, 17/19th February 2017, Teretonga Classic-Invercargill (Support our southern HMC/HSC friends)
8, 1/2nd April 2017, Legends of Speed-Hampton Downs-HRC Event.

It is a pretty intense programme and we are currently sorting out travel, accomodation for the South Island events and if you are interested please drop me a PM.
All HSC cars will be required to be COD compliant for these events and if you have an issue please contact me to discuss.

Cheers
Bruce

[Steve Holmes]

Here is Grant Sprague's new project, which will be an Appendix K car powered by a BDG.

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It'll be painted the same colours as his brother Gary's Twin-cam that raced in period.

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[Steve Holmes]

Latest car to join Historic Saloon Cars is Murray Poot's beautiful 1973 Datsun Coupe. Murray is just going through his COD application with Dave Graham so that they can be processed through MSNZ. Car is 1200 cc and bored out and is a recreation of the car he raced years ago in ShellSport complete with livery.

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[John McKechnie]

Thats a neat looking car, very welcome addition , will be great seeing that mixing it with the Escorts and RX2s

[Steve Holmes]

Stunning BDG powered Broadspeed Escort RS1600 replica. This car was built in New Zealand (by Dave Silcock?), but was sold to a buyer in the UK. Now for sale again. Has a current FIA Historic Technical Passport. It won't be cheap, but a very cool car to have that would/should be eligible for HSC.

More info here: https://www.motorsportauctions.com/category/358/Historic-Touring-Cars/listings/36268/Ford-Escort-RS-1600-MkI-FIA-spec.html

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[MTW201P]

[QUOTE=Steve Holmes;53382]Stunning BDG powered Broadspeed Escort RS1600 replica. This car was built in New Zealand (by Dave Silcock?), but was sold to a buyer in the UK. Now for sale again. Has a current FIA Historic Technical Passport. It won't be cheap, but a very cool car to have that would/should be eligible for HSC.


Yes built by Dave Silcock and to some degree much of the geometry was copied from the ex Fahey car
The donor shell (1300 GT road car) and the original 1600 BDA that was fitted (incl quite rare HART cam box cover) was supplied ex Alan Hewlett

[Steve Holmes]

[QUOTE=Steve Holmes;53382]Stunning BDG powered Broadspeed Escort RS1600 replica. This car was built in New Zealand (by Dave Silcock?), but was sold to a buyer in the UK. Now for sale again. Has a current FIA Historic Technical Passport. It won't be cheap, but a very cool car to have that would/should be eligible for HSC.


Yes built by Dave Silcock and to some degree much of the geometry was copied from the ex Fahey car
The donor shell (1300 GT road car) and the original 1600 BDA that was fitted (incl quite rare HART cam box cover) was supplied ex Alan Hewlett

Thanks for the great info.

[Steve Holmes]

Three HSC racers, Ian Williamson (RX2), Michael Eden (Viva), and Bill Ritchie (Giulia) all pictured at Manfield on the weekend, sorting their cars and sharpening their reflexes in preparation for the first appearance of HMC/HSC at the MG Classic in November.

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[Steve Holmes]

Friday just been, and Grant Sprague was out testing his newly acquired Escort RS2000 at Hampton Downs. This is apparently the first time Grant has been on track in 15 years.

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[Frosty5]

Anyone requiring accommodation at PN for the MG Classic in November. Have one single bed available for 2 nights. Cost $130.00.
let me know if interested.
Cheers
Dave Graham

[Grant Sprague]

Friday just been, and Grant Sprague was out testing his newly acquired Escort RS2000 at Hampton Downs. This is apparently the first time Grant has been on track in 15 years.....................................Grant>>>>..........13 years Steve...I sold the Mustang ....but time does fly .......... Geeeeee what a fantastic learning curve , I thought I would just rock up on a test day & learn this beautiful circuit & be sort of close to the other little ford pintos & that was not to be the case , the first session a bit damp & wet , corners blind in places , missing apexes, getting annoyed & started over driving going & slower.....came back in slowed my self down & went quicker by not being silly going back to smooth mode , but still a long way off to where we need to be on saying that we did a big think tank and looked at things that I know will improve the car plus more laps for me at Hampton we hope in a forward direction & at least get closer to the other little fords . I was told not to take this class seriously!!!!!! lol we need to find a lot of time to even consider being serious, it sure is no ball of fire but its going to be fun it will get better.......roll on manfield that will be a great weekend , humble pie is cool ... Thank you HMC..... Kind regards, Grant

37666[QUOTE=Steve Holmes;55012]Friday just been, and Grant Sprague was out testing his newly acquired Escort RS2000 at Hampton Downs. This is apparently the first time Grant has been on track in 15 yrs

[Steve Holmes]

Good on you Grant! I'm sure with a little more seat time you'll be right back into the swing of things.

[khyndart in CA]

Geez Grant,
Bumper over-riders !
I had wider tyres on my Mum's Escort !
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:)
Wishing you all the best with your return to racing. I am proud of you for doing it and not sitting back like me.
Cheers,
Ken H

[Grant Sprague]

Thank you guys , just one of the issues, we used dot 4 brake fluid so i thought this was the go , until I found out I should have asked for dot four racing , pumping the brakes & using just about two feet to stop this little car was no fun , by this time the over inflated tyres had gone off , plus some other things that will hoist us up in lap times .. I was not fazed by the track at all, found it not bad like any thing when when every thing in sync every thing flows as it should & will...Thank God we went testing very importaint ....:rolleyes:

[Rod Grimwood]

You must have left a little early Grant as we unloaded about 2:30 and had walk around, but did not see you. And if I had seen an Escort you can bet I would have been having a good look. Will catch up

[Spgeti]

This coming weekend is the beginning of our season, TACCOC Spring Classic at Hampton Downs this Saturday.
We have an exciting season this summer and are visiting different tracks around the country, Manfeild, Teretona and Timaru.
Both HMC and HSC have some new cars joining us this year which will bring varitiy to our grids so come along and be part off the fun, be it on the grid or enjoying the sights.
I will be up at HD this weekend so come along and say hello.

Cheers
Bruce

[Spgeti]

Well we now head in to HMC/HSC's first major event of the season.
TACCOC Spring meeting was held on a superb day of fine weather and while HSC only had 6 cars entered the day went with out incident.
Our combind grid was 14 cars and with Bathurst weekend on we considered to be a good turn out for a one day meeting.
The presentation of the cars from both groups were another step up and the guys seem to be embracing the objective of what we are trying to achieve.
The grid for Manfeild, the MG Classic is growing and without giving the details at this stage will be significant. Dale will release the details of all entrants closer to the event on both threads.
We have hired the Manfeild Suite for the Saturday and Sunday so if you are there please do call in and meet the guys and girls and have a look at the cars.
Futher details will be realeased as we get closer to the event so come along and support this 31st running of the MG Classic.

Cheers
Bruce

[Steve Holmes]

The combined Historic Muscle Cars/Historic Saloon Cars entry to date for the MG Classic next month. I'm told both Poul Christie (Cortina Lotus) and Natalie Campbell Parlane (Ford Capri V6), have also entered since.

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[Steve Holmes]

Unfortunately it appeara Poul Christie won't be racing due to a mechanical issue with the Cortina. However, the following have since entered, bringing the field up to 30 cars:

Natalie Campbell, Capri V6
Bill Ritchie, Alfa Guilia
Colin Campbell, Escort RS2000
Clyde Walters, Mk3 Cortina 2000

[Kiwiboss]

Fitted up Mike Coorys Datsun 240K with its Hoosier tyres today, made sure we ordered the correct size's to match the car, wont make it go any better but it sure looks cool!! He's all set to go for MG Classic now, Manfeild 12/13 Nov. Be great to see more Historic Saloon Cars on the period bias tyres, they should last for ever on these lighter smaller cars. Dale M

[Frosty5]

Hi Team, just a note to thank all those for putting on a great show. I would also like to thank those that we audited for their co-operation in the task that was at hand.For those that have COD updates to do and submit to MSNZ please ensure you send a copy of your COD once approved, to myself (drmgraham@xtra.co.nz) in colour. (make sure it has the red MSNZ stamp on each page otherwise it wont be valid). We put through 18/19 cars and everyone was kosha (apart from some minor admin things but easily fixed).
There also needs to be acknowledgement of, and thanks to, the the people who funded the Manfield Suite so that we could enjoy some comfort and peace and quiet away from the racing, in particular Mike Coory (Health House), Dale Mathers (Coastline Automotive) and Bruce Dyer (all things Italian!!), Roger Williams for his generous contribution to Friday nights outing to Essence eatery. Just as well it was liquid and not food, (refer comments below re TR) Without people like these where would we be? And then of course there is Pete "Mr Meat" Stevenson who supplied the sausages for the BBQ and of course the Allingham girls who supplied the popcorn, but last but not least to Lyn Dyer who supplied the muffins and quiche for some of us to enjoy. If you were ahead of Tony Roberts you were OK, those behind just got the crumbs!!!
It was a great weekend which I thoroughly enjoyed watching the racing, the auditing but most importantly the friendship that has emanated from this group of enthusiasts. You people are a credit to this group.
In closing, Dale, Tony, Steve & Bruce, you have a wonderful setup here and I sincerely hope it continues to grow so that we all can see the history of our sport.

See you all next time.

Best personal regards

Dave Graham
HMC/HSC COD Auditor #23013
MSNZ Scrutineer #150253Y

[Spgeti]

I would just like to thank all the entrants and supporters from HMC and HSC for a fantastic weekend of racing and social gatherings.
No accidents and just clean racing. Yes a few had mechanical issues, but that unfortunatley is one of the problems of racing old cars.
I do feel for those who had major issues and I know you all will be back.
Special thanks to Dave Graham and Mike McCready from MSNZ for auditing and weighing 19 cars, to Dale, Tony and Steve for helping me during what I call my home meeting.
To all the supporters thank you for attending and your kind words. To MG, thank you for a fantastic meeting and the weather Gods for keeping the rain away.

Cheers
Bruce

[Steve Holmes]

With a little work this could be a neat addition to HSC: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/cto/5875420395.html

[Spgeti]

Here are the results from The MG Classic. Overall lap times were close and racing was through out the field.

http://www.marktime.co.nz/results/mg...ing/2016/11/12

[Steve Holmes]

A couple of new additions to the Historic Saloon Cars ranks. Firstly, David Thompson Jnr, with his beautiful Ford Escort RS1600. This car actually has an amazing New Zealand history, being one of only a handful of genuine RS1600's sold new in NZ. It was raced by none other than Frank Radisich, in factory guise without the forest flares, in the Castrol GTX series. It then spent many years as a rally car.

David Thompson Jnr has done a beautiful job restoring the car. Incidentally, his father owns the famous Stone Brothers MkI Escort that contested the BNSW series, before going on to live a successful career with Roy Harrington in the ShellSport series in the 1980s.

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