Missing Tasman Series Ferrari?

[Terry S]

Look at the photo at the start of this site. Besides the Indy car #31 is what I believe to be a Tasman Series Ferrari 246T. What an incredible sight! I could be wrong but all the signs are there.
http://www.turnology.com/news/this-collection-of-abandoned-race-cars-is-difficult-to-comprehend/
There is no indication of where or when the photo was taken, but itllos to be in the US because of the Indy car, the Sears branded truck and what looks to be a red Studebaker Avanti.
There were only 3 of these Tasman Series made:
Chassis 0004 for Amon for 1968
Chassis 0008 for Amon for 1969
Chassis 0010 for Bell for 1969
The first two can be accounted for:
------0004 was bought in January 2006 by Graham Adelman of US after being restored by Hall & Hall, He has driven it at a couple of Tasman Revival meetings at Eastern Creek. Believed he still has it.
------0008 was auctioned by Bonhams in the US in August 2014. It fetched USD 1.2M. So unlikely to be this car.
------0010 was bought after the Tasman Series by Anthony Bamford of UK. I think he’s the guy that owns JCB Excavators. He sold it in 1980 but there the trail goes cold. So this could be the car.

[GD66]

0010 was up for grabs in February, Duncan Hamilton the vendor.

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http://retroracecars.com/single-seater-for-sale-1968-ferrari-166-dini-f2-tasman/

[khyndart in CA]

Could it be a 1966 Ferrari Dino 166 Formula 2 from which the Tasman cars were derived ?

Numbers built: 7 (Three of which were converted to Tasman spec at one point).(1967 - 1968 Ferrari Dino 166 F2 Ultimatecarpage.com)



(Ken Hyndman )

[Murray Maunder]

I can't recall any Tasman 246T ever appearing with bodywork that didn't include upper engine cover. And for that matter the line of the bodywork at the rear doesn't look right at all. The bodywork shown here I can see appears in UK photos like Goodwood Festival. Maybe this has been rebuilt as a 166 F2 with the bodywork as raced in F2 not as in Tasman spec..... The spiel from Duncan Hamilton ad is unclear what spec the car is in it says "1968 Ferrari 166 Dini (sic) F2 / Tasman".

So on this basis we can safely account for all three 246Ts;

004 was out here for the Festival in 2014 in 246T form.
008 was purchased less than a year ago at Bonham's Auction as 166 F2/246T Tasman???? Bodywork suspect for Tasman history....
010 was auctioned by Duncan Hamilton looking more like 166 F2, maybe with a 246 spare installed or as spare.

To me the 004 car is the only one that evokes the memories of Chris and Derek and Graeme down under.

The one in the junk pile will almost certainly be a 166 F2 (7 were built) - still a tragedy for a car of that identity.

[GD66]

Good point, mate...

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[Terry S]

I can't recall any Tasman 246T ever appearing with bodywork that didn't include upper engine cover. And for that matter the line of the bodywork at the rear doesn't look right at all. The bodywork shown here I can see appears in UK photos like Goodwood Festival. Maybe this has been rebuilt as a 166 F2 with the bodywork as raced in F2 not as in Tasman spec..... The spiel from Duncan Hamilton ad is unclear what spec the car is in it says "1968 Ferrari 166 Dini (sic) F2 / Tasman".

So on this basis we can safely account for all three 246Ts;

004 was out here for the Festival in 2014 in 246T form.
008 was purchased less than a year ago at Bonham's Auction as 166 F2/246T Tasman???? Bodywork suspect for Tasman history....
010 was auctioned by Duncan Hamilton looking more like 166 F2, maybe with a 246 spare installed or as spare.

To me the 004 car is the only one that evokes the memories of Chris and Derek and Graeme down under.

The one in the junk pile will almost certainly be a 166 F2 (7 were built) - still a tragedy for a car of that identity.

Murray, I am somewhat confused by your post. You seem to be saying the car auctioned by Duncan Hamilton is and it isn't 0010. What is your actual conclusion?

Re the comment about these Tasman cars never appearing without engine covers, you are incorrect.

----Go to Autopics.com.au and search for Amon. You will see several photos of the car without engine cover
----The cover of the 1968Australian Motor Racing Annual has a very clear photo of Amon without engine cover.

[Terry S]

I realise the last Annual mentioned is an Aust publication, so may not be available to many.
Here is a NZ site for it:
http://www.sergent.com.au/motor/tas68a.html

[khyndart in CA]

I checked out the other USAC race car # 31 in the photo and managed to find this out. Perhaps a Florida hurricane can reveal some interesting stuff !
From; Oldracingcars.com; " Gerhardt 69 (Greg Weld): A non-wedge 1969 Gerhardt that first appeared as part of the Federal Automotive team at the 1969 Indy 500 as the #31 Federal Engineering entry for Bobby Johns. Johns did not qualify and Bud Tingelstad took over the #31 for the rest of 1969. This car returned to Indy in 1970 as Federal's #31 Stearns Transi-Tread entry with Paul Brooks as chief crew for driver Jim Malloy who qualified. The 1969 car is presumed to be the #31 car from then until the team disappears at the end of 1971. Subsequent history unknown until Hurricane Charley in August 2004 damaged a building in Florida, revealing the little-known car collection of real estate developer Walter Medlin. The #31 Gerhardt, in apparently original condition, was visible in pictures of the damaged building. In April 2007, the car was pictured on an open transporter on Interstate 65 heading north of Nashville, TN. With it were the 1979 Cicada and an unidentified #99 car. Rumoured to be in a private museum in Indianapolis (and the I-65 through Nashville is exactly on the route from Florida to Indianapolis).

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Also check this site;

http://forum.turboduck.net/threads/18555-The-latest-epic-barn-find
















(Ken Hyndman )

[GD66]

Seems it is chassis no 14, raced in F2 by Regazzoni and Brambilla.

Plenty of info on Medlin, the tax department and Hurricane Charley on google, but it is sad reading about his disregard for those cars...including (gag) a P4...


Pic of Medlin's shed before the hurricane arrived...
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[Kwaussie]

I realise the last Annual mentioned is an Aust publication, so may not be available to many.
Here is a NZ site for it:
http://www.sergent.com.au/motor/tas68a.html

Have a look at this link - http://www.sergent.com.au/motor/tasman1968.html
The Australian races are included at the bottom of the first page.
Seems Sergent used a cover from an Australian mag to head up the aussie races.

[Murray Maunder]

Terry, what I think is that it is 010 in F2 guise with 1.6 litre V6 and the earlier (F2) bodywork.

Then again on the body issue, your magazine cover clearly shows Amon in the #4 246T at an Aussie circuit (Warwick Farm?) without the engine cover. Note however the profile of the rear of the bodywork and compare it to the car advertised in Glenn's post (#2).
Much of my conjecture comes to nothing when we consider the high engine cover was sometimes removed - for some reason I thought the upper body panel ran through into engine cover, it doesn't.

Returning to the original sad looking Ferrari the Walter Medlin connection would put it as chassis 14, a continuous F2 car. Sorry any confusion.

[Terry S]

I also found a route yesterday to the owner of these Ferraris by a different way but couldn’t get back to the internet until now. It is WALTER MEDLIN. Google that name for some fascinating stories.
It seems he is a 70 year old who has been in trouble with the law for many things including marijuana, performing abortions, illegal guns etc etc His biggest problems appear to have been with the Tax Office. He seems to have spent quiet a time in jail.
He was very secretive and media shy, however his cover was literally blown away as a result of Hurricane Charley in August 2004. It hit his Florida lake side farm and blew a shed completely apart. And what was in it but 17 Ferraris and 2 other cars that were now completely exposed. Estimated to be worth at least $50M.

In his Tax Office arguments he argued he was very poor so couldn’t pay. I love these lines:

“I’m poor, I’m sorry I can’t pay my tax”
“Is this your barn?”
“...erm, yes....but I had no idea there was $50M of cars inside...”

In 1990 the Tax Office took 2 Ferraris valued at $20Mto recoup $540K. He paid at last minute.
In 2005 the Tax Office took his Ferrari P4 valued at $10M to recoup a $3M bill. Again he paid at the very last minute.

This P4 is interesting. It was not in the destroyed shed but in a separate warehouse. It is one of only 3 original P4’s. It is chassis #0858 and by coincidence it was owned and raced in Australia for a time by David MacKay’s Scuderia Veloce.

None of my searching however has so far ascertained what the Ferrari single seater is.

[khyndart in CA]

In late 1968 the Formula 2 season went to South America for the Argentine Temporada Series.
Tino Brambilla drove Ferrari Dino 166 # 004 car # 12 with some success. Also driving for Ferrari was Andrea De Adamich in Dino 166,
chassis # 012 car # 14. He also won against a top class field. (I wonder what became of this Dino 166 # 012 ?)
You can catch brief glimpses of these two cars in these rather different You Tube videos. (Note the lack of engine covers in the heat )
(December is summer in the southern hemisphere )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLQlN5fgbXg



(Ken Hyndman)...note the safety for the photographers and tanker trucks by the track !

[khyndart in CA]

Second Argentine Formula 2 race. December 1968
(Youtube video )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhZwVJq6zbM


(Ken Hyndman )

[GD66]

I also found a route yesterday to the owner of these Ferraris by a different way but couldn’t get back to the internet until now. It is WALTER MEDLIN. Google that name for some fascinating stories.
None of my searching however has so far ascertained what the Ferrari single seater is.

Terry, if you keep poking around you will find it is an F2 Dino 166, with chassis no 014. There are several mentions of it around, including TNF.


And here's the P4 (sob)...
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[Murray Maunder]

People like him should NEVER be able to buy a Ferrari 330P4. :mad:

[seaqnmac27]

(Ken Hyndman)...note the safety for the photographers and tanker trucks by the track !

Ken, talking about safety for photographers! I have been looking for an excuse to post this picture. Its Monaco (obviously) 1965.

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[khyndart in CA]

Sean,
That is an incredible photo of the risks that photographers took. Thanks for sharing.


Ken

[khyndart in CA]

I want to thank Terry S, GD66, Murray etc for bringing all this back about the Formula 2 Ferraris. I have learned so much again from that time when the fields were almost the same as a Formula One race from that era. Ferrari Dino 166 F 2 cars were certainly hard to trace at times and it even had the 1968 NZGP car as chassis # 006 in one publication ! I could only find the first chassis number as the
004 car that was driven by Chris Amon and Tino Brambilla mostly(also a Tasman car). The 006 car was driven by Chris Amon at the 1968 Hockenheim race where Jim Clark died, Jackie Ickx, and later at Monza by a Mario Casoni. The 008 car was best known to us as a Tasman car in Jan 1969 and later sold to Graeme Lawrence, this was also raced by Brambilla and Brian Redman in F 2. Another Tasman car was the 010 that was first raced by Jackie Ickx and then by Derek Bell who joined Chris Amon here in Jan. 1969. The 0012 Ferrari was driven in Europe and South America by Andrea de Adamich, Regazzoni , Derek Bell and Brambillo. The 014 Ferrari was driven in Europe in 1969 by Clay Regazzoni and also Tino Brambillo. ( I think that covers 6 of the 7 F2 Ferraris..perhaps John Surtees drove an earlier one before chassis # 004 )

( October 1969. Bay Park. Graeme Lawrence in his Ferrari Dino chassis # 008. It had been driven on the tracks of Europe by drivers such as Brian Redman,Tino Brambilla and Chris Amon in the Tasman series. Now this beautiful machine was about to enter races here in NZ. )

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(Ken Hyndman..photo )

[GD66]

Luckily for us ! Surtees was keen to drive the 246 at Monaco in 1966 and quite fancied his chances around there in the little car, but he was over-ruled and ordered to drive the 312, which retired on lap 16 with transmission trouble : Bandini drove the 246, and finished second behind Stewart's BRM. Possibly this is the missing early chassis number you're alluding to, Ken.
Surtees was none too happy, and this is where the rot really started to set in, part of the cause of his mid-season departure from the team.

[GD66]

Brambilla in the 166 in the Temporada F2 series of 1968. This could be chassis 014 that started all this fun...
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[khyndart in CA]

This was chassis # 004 that Chris Amon drove here in Jan. 1968.

Argentine F2 Temporada Race

Buenos Aires, 1 Dec 1968


Results

Laps

Time/Speed

1 Ernesto "Tino" Brambilla (F2) 1.6-litre Ferrari Dino 166 [0004] 6
#12 SpA Ferrari SEFAC 70 1h 35m 20.6s
94.64 mph

(Old Racing Car . Com ... results )

( Ken Hyndman )

[GD66]

Roger that, cheers mate.

Edit : this is what's thrown me out :

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/formula/0014.dino.166f2.htm

[khyndart in CA]

Looks like the Walter Medlin's Ferrari Dino 166 # 0014 did not have much of a track record to brag about !



( K H )

[Terry S]

Terry, if you keep poking around you will find it is an F2 Dino 166, with chassis no 014. There are several mentions of it around, including TNF.

After much searching I have also reached conclusion that Medlin's car is a F2 Dino with chassis #14. It was used in 1969 by Clay Regazzoni and Tino Brambilla. After that it is a mystery until it turned up with Medlin.

I cannot see anywhere that it has been sold by Medlin.

[GD66]

It is not really a mystery, if you go to the Barchetta link above in my post #23 you will see the lineage of the car's ownership after its race days.

[Terry S]

It is not really a mystery, if you go to the Barchetta link above in my post #23 you will see the lineage of the car's ownership after its race days.

With the greatest respect, I ignored the Barchhta site after you said in post 23 that it had thrown you out. I merely took your advice.

[GD66]

No worries, mate, all good. I'm hoping someone may whack up a link on here to a video clip of the little Ferrari, footage of them is at a premium. Oh, the SOUND....

[khyndart in CA]

I know this is not quite what you were after, but we all need a bit of Maranello magic !


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmWAR3cwpZA


(Thanks to Youtube )
(Ken Hyndman )

[khyndart in CA]

More from Maranello.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25N0MafmtxU



(Ken Hyndman )

[khyndart in CA]

I do not mean to spoil this thread but I get a bit carried away with the sounds of Ferraris.
Put on your headphones and enjoy the sounds of V10 Ferraris of 2001-2005 driving at an empty Monza circuit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mHkfCmoMVs



( Ken Hyndman )

[GD66]

Good man ! :cool:

[Kevin Hirst]

Good man ! :cool:

Lovely, send a copy to Bernie.

[Terry S]

It is interesting to look at the value of theses cars in their day and ponder how rich a buyer would be now.....

As noted above the Ferrari P4 chassis #0858 owned by Medlin was originally owned by David McKay's Scuderia Veloce.
In his autobiography McKay notes he paid US$30,000 for it in 1969. He would have had to pay another US$34,000 in duty for it if kept in Australia for greater than 12 months. To avoid this he sold it to Aussie Paul Hawkins before the year was up to race in a South African series. What is it worth now?

In regard to the two single seat Ferrari 246T chassis #0008 and #0010 that were raced in the 1969 Tasman Series, McKay notes that Chris Amon told him he was authorised "to sell the 2 cars and spares for US$38,000". Again, what a bargain?

Isn't hindsight a marvellous thing......

[GD66]

David Manton's Pat Hoare book has some interesting stories along this line : well worth a look !
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[Kwaussie]

It is interesting to look at the value of theses cars in their day and ponder how rich a buyer would be now.....

As noted above the Ferrari P4 chassis #0858 owned by Medlin was originally owned by David McKay's Scuderia Veloce.
In his autobiography McKay notes he paid US$30,000 for it in 1969. He would have had to pay another US$34,000 in duty for it if kept in Australia for greater than 12 months. To avoid this he sold it to Aussie Paul Hawkins before the year was up to race in a South African series. What is it worth now?

Isn't hindsight a marvellous thing......

Further reading regarding #0858 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/381798-david-piper-restores-talacrest-p4.html

[GD66]

Bonhams auction...(sob)...

http://dev2.checkoutthelatest.com/remrob&watch=Vd5ITGX_WMQ

[Terry S]

Further reading regarding #0858 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/381798-david-piper-restores-talacrest-p4.html

That thread has had an incredible 3088 posts to date, a lot of them dribble. I admit I have only skimmed through, but here is my précis:

Ferrari built 3 P4's for the 1967 Endurance Championship. Regulation changes meant they could not compete in the 1968 Endurance Championship. So Ferrari converted two of them, 0858 & 0860 to run in the Can Am series. This included new lighter bodies and engines enlarged to 4.2L.
Weight was reduced from 792Kg to 700Kg.

They were however no competition for the Bruce and Denny show in Can Am, so Ferrari sold them off after that.

David Piper eventually bought 0858. He obtained all the necessary P4 blueprints from Ferrari.
Sold the car to Walter Medlin who showed it a few times but basically held it in barn until sold by RM Auctions in 2009.

The new owner commissioned David Piper to "restore" it to its original P4 status. That's where the "controversy" arises.

Is it a P4 or a replica, even though the original conversion to 350 Can Am car was done in the Ferrari factory.

The dispute is worth millions of dollars as a P4 is now worth many millions more than the Can Am car.

[khyndart in CA]

Terry,
Thanks to you and GD66 for all the interesting information. You could write your own book. I enjoy this thread.


(Ken Hyndman )

[Terry S]

It has been fascinating to discover that Walter Medlin also owned the Ferrari P4/Can Am 350 raced at one time by David McKay’s Scuderia Veloce team.

In the course of searching I came across this truly wonderful site:
http://primotipo.com/
Then in search type "Ferrari P4". Then call up that article.
A great article on the cars 1967 competitors, its European, Can Am and Australian histories and some truly great photos.

I thoroughly recommend this primotipo.com site. There is an incredible variety of articles on it from all parts of world and all ages. Suggest work through the icons at the top.
Hours of informative reading there.

[Terry S]

Roger that, cheers mate.

Edit : this is what's thrown me out :

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/formula/0014.dino.166f2.htm

From searching the net you come across so many errors.
Here is one related to this topic. It appears to be "official" Donington Grand Prix Museum site

http://flickeflu.com/set/72157616386876693

Go down to photo # 15. It is described as Chris Amon's Ferrari 312.
In fact it is a 246. Subtle difference is 312 had 12 cylinders, whilst the 246 had only 6.

Unfortunately one just has to be so cautious not to be "thrown out" by what one reads.

[GD66]

It doesn't help when the blurbs that accompany cars up for auction by the likes of Pickles, Bennetts and Bonhams are regularly sheer works of fiction. They appear to assume that the great unwashed (that's us) will be dazzled by the inclusion of the mention of some famous names and events in the spiel and be assuaged. In the world of historic motorcycle racing, you would be staggered to discover that nearly every Suzuki TR750 that comes up is ex-Barry Sheene, every 350 or 450 Ducati is ex-Bruno Spaggiari and many a G50 Matchless is ex-Steve McQueen. What you've mentioned here Terry is indicative of the lax nature of provenance from places that should know better and would have no trouble in authenticating the veracity of their descriptions. Don't wish to appear an anorak or a rivet-counter, but between these appalling displays of guesswork and Wikipedia, before long all our history will be "near enough" to the truth.
Bugger that.