New Zealand's premier race series.

[Allan]

After watching the V8 supertourers on TV3 yesterday (because for family reasons I couldn't make it) I began to wonder which of the supposedly "top end" series being run in this country is considered to be our "Premier" series. Many years ago when I first started watching and taking an interest, single seaters were all the go and continued to be so into the 70s.
What is the answer to a one make series (you can call them what you like but they are all the same under the skin) that fronts with only 8 of the 20 or so cars that exist?
Is the motor race sponsorship dollar being stretched to it absolute limits meaning that more of these cars stayed in their sheds rather than coming out to play?
And will the various groups who run these V8 series ever get together long enough to sort out there differences and put on a show that the punters will be happy to pay to see? Which individual or group holds the key to all this?
I am fortunate to be old enough to remember the very good old days when people helped out at race meetings where all the officials performed their tasks for the love of the sport. I well remember lap scoring at a number of Benson and Hedges meetings because I enjoyed it but also because when I wasn't calling out car numbers as they rushed past at the Elbow I had the best seat in the house.
Allan Cameron

[928]

a simple formula such as
no body mods above a line drawn through the wheel centres
safety equipment
race it

should do the trick

[Allan]

Isn't that called 2Kcup?

[CUSTAXIE50]

What a Joke it was on sunday,a load of crap.

[paul lancaster]

Hi allan, I had the pleasure of commentating at the weekend at levels raceway in timaru, where the 2kcup was featuring.at their first round, back in october, there were 38 cars that lined up on the grid, of these 38,31 of them had never raced before.yesterday, there were 54 cars that competed, albeit, run in 2 heats.there are another 10-12 cars not far off joining in, as well as people enquiring about how to get involved, all weekend.the racing was brilliant, only a couple of spinners, no panel damage, and everyone is having a ball, with none of the bullshit, that I have seen go on, in plenty of other classes, and very cheap to get involved.i also wonder what is our premier race series at present.
nzv8s, formula ford?, I dont know, but with only a few cars on the grid, I dont think v8st deserve to be called our premier race series.i think one needs to look back in time, and by that, I mean the classic racing scene of the past 10 odd years.the southern festival of speed is due to get underway down here, and the numbers through all the classes are jam packed,but if your after a class to call a premier series, you probably couldnt beat the formula 5000s.big numbers, and big noise, which the fans love, or the toyota racing series, not being biased, as im a single seater man,anyhow, like everybody else that has avgas in their veins, ill watch any sort of motorsport,I just hope we do see more v8st on the grid, as 5 or 6 car fields, arent much fun for anyone to watch, let alone commentate!

[Allan]

Thanks for your reply Paul. I am watching the 2Kcup here in the north and love the enthusiasm of the newest competitors. I have only one fear for the series and that is that a serious accident occurs and that new and expensive rules to control safety will be dumped on the competitors and organizers which will have the effect of putting the price of what is a fun series out of reach of those who would love to get involved.
At the Ganley festival I thought that some of the smaller single seater fields could have been combined to provide a better spectacle.
Allan

[ERC]

I have only one fear for the series and that is that a serious accident occurs and that new and expensive rules to control safety will be dumped on the competitors and organizers which will have the effect of putting the price of what is a fun series out of reach of those who would love to get involved.

My fear too Allan, and not just for U2K. It also apples to other grids. We had 6 full grids for the Ganley Festival and roll protection is optional in the slower of our two classes, but we did make harness belts compulsory for all, as unlike cages, they do not wreck a classic car.

There have been deaths in cars fitted with full roll protection as motorsport is dangerous, but counting the number of car laps by U2K cup or any other non-caged cars will show that the risks are still minimal. Forty cars doing a 10 lap race is 400 laps. Super Tourers with 4 cars doing 15 laps is only 60.

Premier class or classes? We wouldn't get a large field of F5000's running throughout the whole season, but maybe there is an opportunity for a modern day F5000 type class running stock V8's as a premier class?

The most critical part of the premier class or classes is that they should NOT be a group of 100% identical cars.

At least one class needs to have enough noise speed and attitude to be worth watching and a minimum of 20 cars on the grid, maybe even 25. Anything less is a waste of decent track space. Attitude? Most people say they enjoy the Muscle Cars because they have attitude, something Super Tourers or other modern V8 saloons do not have.

Combining classes? Every time for me, but sadly, there are some who refuse to run in a combined race citing speed differentials as a problem. They think that 7 or 8 cars is OK as a race but it is an attitude I cannot understand. There are several mechanisms for running different classes together but when drivers simply refuse, they only have themselves to blame if organisers drop their class in favour of better grids.

Anything less than 15 cars on a grid is a loss maker for the organisers and also drives away supporters and even flaggies. If you are expecting a flaggie to stand out in all weathers from 8:30am to 5:30pm for the whole weekend, then the fastest way to drive them away is to have small grids. Would I volunteer to flag at Super Tourers or other NZ V8 classes today? No way.

[928]

what? a CRX with a chev v8 in it, looking standard. me thinks not

[Allan]

Thanks for your reply Ray. And thanks for letting us run the FIAT in your class at Taupo. I think Ross's intention is to run in both the Alfa and ERC series. Our driveshaft problem has been addressed and we are ready to go again.
For some time now I have thought long and hard about the problem of small fields. If there is an answer I don't have it. I think the main issue is value for money for the competitor or as some would put it "bang for buck". I know that there are many cars lying idle in sheds all over the country because the total cost of competing has become more than the owner can afford. In some cases a change in regulations have meant that money has to be spent to bring the car up to a newer standard which the owner cannot afford. One of the greatest problems is that while many of these cars are for sale the asking price is way more than what the car is realistically worth or what some other person is willing to pay. The stupid part of this equation is that as anyone who has been involved in motorsport for any length of time it is not possible to build these cars for what is being asked for them.
I totally agree that any premier class should not be made up of 100% identical cars. I also think that classes like the Aussie V8 supercars have gone to far away from the original concept and that they are basically a silhouette of what that are suposed to be. This is why classes like yours and HMC are doing so well and attracting competitors. That is because they are real cars modified to suit their application and not some space frame with some manufacturer's panels trimmed to fit and attached to the outside.
In my opinion one of the best classes was group A. Real cars from real manufacturers modified to race but still retaining the original identity and appearing to Joe Public like the car they own and drive.
Maybe what the world of motorsport needs is a modern version of group A with a set of regulation that are universal worldwide.

[ERC]

No such thing as small fields in U2K Cup, BMW E30's and BMW Open, AES & Arrow Wheels, Alfa Trofeo. None of these could ever be considered a 'Premier Class'. Apart from the front runners in the BMW open, all would be in the 'affordable' category and are effectively road cars, not race cars.

A Premier class (as opposed to a Tier 1 meeting) should be for what most would consider race cars, be they race saloons, single seaters or exotics such as GT's.

A Tier 1 meeting need not be exclusive to premier classes, but they can represent the balance to make a programme varied and interesting. As a series, Tier 1 needs to differentiate between those top classes that appear at all or most events and other well supported classes at the whim of the local organisers.

Geographically, NZ is not ideal for more than a very small number of National Classes (cost and time prohibitive) therefore by default, we have Island based championships and further down the scale, regional.

Our own is Pukekohe and Hampton Downs based (regional), with just one Taupo event. Others are Manfeild and Taupo based (regional) but any NI series that includes all four tracks becomes Island based, but straightaway, the costs rise. No doubt the same applies in the South Island given the distances between the tracks.

We pulled out of Manfeild purely on the grounds of costs and time to our competitors.

I may be being very simplistic here but there are many factors to be taken into account when setting up any series, whether that be Tier 1 or at Club level. Get it right and it works. Get it wrong and it falls over (or needs putting to sleep...). That part isn't so very complicated but some seem to overlook the very basics.

[Spgeti]

Well said Ray.
I attended last years NZGP meeting at Manfeild. Apart from the TRS...23 cars on the grid the next best group were the Pro7's with MX5's added in....43 cars in all on the grid and as you stated gives variety.
I was disappointed with the Toyota AE86 grid...8 cars in my view does no justify the billing and was not a spectators delight...just as last weeks Supertourer at HD....a seriously disappointing grid.

Travel costs including time is a serious factor and as you say if you get it right all is fine...get it wrong and the results not only turns the promoters off but also pushes Joe Public away.

[George Sheweiry]

The overall views expressed here have hit the nail on the head, numbers, variety and public appeal. Give the public what they want and you will increase spectator numbers. Graham Pearce and Peter Hanna got it right "Big banger Saloons", thats why they had to close the gates at their meetings because they were full and had the likes of NZIGP clamoring to get the saloons brought over to NZ by those 2 to their single seater based meetings. The Frost brigade had it wrong and thats why everybody went to get lunch when the single seaters came out. the F5000s with their brute power got a few more people interested but the average person still wanted to see the saloons because they were the cars they would drive on the road every week. They wanted to see how their car would do when pushed to the limits against other cars. Remember Henry Fords famous quote Race on Saturday, win on Sunday, sell on Monday!! (or something like that). Dont get me wrong their still needs to be a single seater class but as suggested a new version of the most popular, F5000!! with a standard chassis from all the makers as well as joe average can build, stock block with one of at least 10 of the current V8s available and weighted to a power to weight ratio but in conjunction with Australia, Great Britain and US if they could be bothered and they need to be spectacular with big wings and aero, but do them out of Fiberglass and have a road car transaxle like the new GT40s and pick a road car brake package that is up to the job, basically like the early days where people could make their own car and that would most importantly keep it affordable for most people. Stock saloon cars, Bring back the Benson and Hedges 500. This was always a big deal in our race categories each year, approach all the new car dealers here and get them to put up some prize money and call it The combined dealers saloon car 500 and a flag with all their logos on as the emblem for it all and every new car sold gets a TCDSC500 sticker and race series blurb sheet/programme so they actually know in advance when and where the series will run. So you have your big deal 500 race and then smaller support races at T1 after that. Modified saloons, people loved these because they all wondered just how good their road cars would be with some mods. IMHO the class that was the closest to this was NZV8. Joe average could by his cheap high mileage car and convert it into a racer and be as competitive as the big boys, and that showed with the big fields they had. the thing they were lacking was variety, open it up to more V8 makes and models, Chrysler 300s, Montecarlos, Fusions, Mercedes, BMWs but let them run the strongest/ cheapest and available gearbox, diff, brake road car parts and emphasize to the public this fact and again power to weight managed. Full Race Saloons has to be Trans ams, a class that has been around for years with a good solid set of rules that again joe average could run a competitive car against the big boys. They have everything / V8s, variety, big wheels, aero, wings and because there is now a lot of V8 super tourers, incorporate them into the class. Production Muscle cars, people still like high performance road cars, Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, Cudas, Firebirds, Plymouth RTs, Commodores, Falcon FPV and there is probably even some Euros. Now days they come out with massive brake packages, 5 & 6 speed HD boxes, killer supension packages so again to keep it affordable base it on road cars from say 2000 to 2010, take all the interior out, cage them, race seat competition pads and that's it again power to weight ratio them. Put them on a road tire with only 180 tread wear to make them slip and slide and so that you get the maximum amount of miles on them before it makes a difference in times to buy a new set and of course this will limit oil surge, and with all these classes any parts needed let the competitors source their own parts not having to buy them like as some cases in the past from one particular deal. Another thing all the classes that run slicks make them run the hardest compounds again for economics and that's it . There's your Tier 1 Classes. What do ya think?

[ERC]

Spot on!:)

[Rod Grimwood]

Sounds shit hot George, be awesome , but in reality along comes those same people, (being nice here in calling them people) and slowly corrode it until they are big dog and it is down the gurgler again. Sad but motorsport in NZ has been inflicted with these people/groups for along time, and I do not see them leaving, in fact one of the main protagonists was snooping around in the F5000 sheds at Hampton, thank god the doors were open and he moved on through fairly quickly.

[fullnoise68]

Dead right Rod. `Snakes in the grass' is probably a more apt description. Look at every `new' class that`s been and gone, or is currently critically wounded, and the same old lizards are still flaunting their `knowledge'.
There is no easy fix, the family entertainment dollar is being spent more wisely these days, so to get the family along to any motorsport event, the interest retention level must be good or else you don`t get them back..... Nowadays so many competitors get all bitter and twisted over the most trivial crap imaginable, what the hell happened to the fun factor .....
Creating more new classes is not the answer, getting bums on seats is about putting on a show and with the amount of cars from both defunct and depleted classes sitting around surely its up to interested groups to get together and make it happen. If you`d said to people 5 years ago that Graham Addis and Barry Algie were going to race their old cars again, they`d have laughed at you ......

[George Sheweiry]

well I am not so sure Rod I think it needs a panel of guys that used to run in each class of old for instance the modified saloons ( originaly NZV8), address all the things that wern't up to scratch and put on a replacement that wont break or whatever, use harder tyre compounds for longer life all the things that would make it cheaper even if the cars went slower like pull back the revs. go over every aspect of the original and make it better then when you have the formula you think is the deal add in the rule I put in when I reformed our Productiion Muscle Car, club series, which is now in its 15th season. The Technical rules can only be changed with a 100% vote! That puts an end to the oh I think we should have bigger brakes or more modified engines and then the first and last races of the season are complete reverse grid or handicap. But the officials would have to get on board with a crack down on punting, not rubbing, punting and anyone deemed to be at fault pays a $200 fine to who ever they took out, only gets 1/2 their points for that race and starts the next race from the rear. If they get more than 3 x 1st placings in a row the next race they have to start from 10th and at the end of that years series everyone sits down and gives their 2 cents worth on any arising problems and they are then dealt with by a 95% vote and if that doesn't work for next season keep adding bits to it so that no one can dominate absolutely. It just needs a set of rules to give everyone a fair crack at it. And the reason for that is that then you wont get the guys going oh I am just going to finish up at the back as usual parking their cars up. Rod I think its worth a try!

[Murray Maunder]

"Premiere" racing classes will never again live up to the description due to the increasingly professional and expensive nature of world motorsport IMHO. Toyota Racing Series is as good as it's likely to get even if I wouldn't bother flicking on the TV to watch it due to the lack of local involvement - it's a business model the organisers have taken and good luck to them. I think it's a class that despite TV is so inward looking - it's not spectator friendly having downforce projectiles that inevitably smash expensive composite panels most times a pass is attempted. I gave up on this stuff years ago.

Didn't the F5000s actually get to compete for the NZGP a few seasons ago - or was that just Lady Wigram Trophy? The F5000s do have a following but the reluctance of these predominantly enthusiast racers to chase a national series of say 6 or more rounds means it will probably just be a great bash every year at the Festival for a full field and elsewhere have embarrassingly thin fields. The same could be said for Historic Musclecars (with their Australian TransAm mates) - it's about enthusiasts and a degree of "rivalry", not out and out racer territory.

For "premiere" we could maybe consider these top of the classic tree classes up there if HRC can put together the sort of promo package that brings even more young converts than is currently the case. The efforts are presently admirable but largely singing to the same crowd each year IMO. The muscle car guys do a great job bringing back the legends for signing sessions and the overall standard of prep of these two classes is superb and much more exciting than any wings and slicks silhouette class running.

Every time an all new class gets started another load of money gets tipped into another venture which inevitably fails. Let's hope F5000 and HMC continues to be viable, editing, loud, brash racing just like back in the 60s and 70s. When I tell youngsters that those cars can run with almost anything from a down under race class 40+ years on and they hold the outright record at HD, they want to check them out, and they're never disappointed.

[George Sheweiry]

Dead right Rod. `Snakes in the grass' is probably a more apt description. Look at every `new' class that`s been and gone, or is currently critically wounded, and the same old lizards are still flaunting their `knowledge'.
There is no easy fix, the family entertainment dollar is being spent more wisely these days, so to get the family along to any motorsport event, the interest retention level must be good or else you don`t get them back..... Nowadays so many competitors get all bitter and twisted over the most trivial crap imaginable, what the hell happened to the fun factor .....
Creating more new classes is not the answer, getting bums on seats is about putting on a show and with the amount of cars from both defunct and depleted classes sitting around surely its up to interested groups to get together and make it happen. If you`d said to people 5 years ago that Graham Addis and Barry Algie were going to race their old cars again, they`d have laughed at you ......

Yes you are right about the same old snakes and that is why you change the format that has just run and run for years mix it up even to the point where it is nearl a lottery to win, but Tier 1 should be about modern cars and a modern formula/format The Addis Charger the Algie Monaro the Sidchrome Mustang are for Historic events and lets face it its only the likes of us who saw them race that are really interested in them, dont get me wrong I am just as interested to see them out again in fact some of those old classes could even be involved in Tier 2. Overseas you don't see them running really old cars in their Tier 1 do you? But equally we aren't in the same league money wise or population size. So we need to do our classes here as modern as possible and as cost effective and any classes need to take Australia into consideration as there is nothing wrong with a good bit of trans Tasman rivalry.

[George Sheweiry]

This is a great thread and one that was long overdue come on guys we need all of you to have a say because Allan is right the Tier 1 or premiere racing we have at the moment even my cat wouldn't walk across the road to see it !!!

[CUSTAXIE50]

The overall views expressed here have hit the nail on the head, numbers, variety and public appeal. Give the public what they want and you will increase spectator numbers. Graham Pearce and Peter Hanna got it right "Big banger Saloons", thats why they had to close the gates at their meetings because they were full and had the likes of NZIGP clamoring to get the saloons brought over to NZ by those 2 to their single seater based meetings. The Frost brigade had it wrong and thats why everybody went to get lunch when the single seaters came out. the F5000s with their brute power got a few more people interested but the average person still wanted to see the saloons because they were the cars they would drive on the road every week. They wanted to see how their car would do when pushed to the limits against other cars. Remember Henry Fords famous quote Race on Saturday, win on Sunday, sell on Monday!! (or something like that). Dont get me wrong their still needs to be a single seater class but as suggested a new version of the most popular, F5000!! with a standard chassis from all the makers as well as joe average can build, stock block with one of at least 10 of the current V8s available and weighted to a power to weight ratio but in conjunction with Australia, Great Britain and US if they could be bothered and they need to be spectacular with big wings and aero, but do them out of Fiberglass and have a road car transaxle like the new GT40s and pick a road car brake package that is up to the job, basically like the early days where people could make their own car and that would most importantly keep it affordable for most people. Stock saloon cars, Bring back the Benson and Hedges 500. This was always a big deal in our race categories each year, approach all the new car dealers here and get them to put up some prize money and call it The combined dealers saloon car 500 and a flag with all their logos on as the emblem for it all and every new car sold gets a TCDSC500 sticker and race series blurb sheet/programme so they actually know in advance when and where the series will run. So you have your big deal 500 race and then smaller support races at T1 after that. Modified saloons, people loved these because they all wondered just how good their road cars would be with some mods. IMHO the class that was the closest to this was NZV8. Joe average could by his cheap high mileage car and convert it into a racer and be as competitive as the big boys, and that showed with the big fields they had. the thing they were lacking was variety, open it up to more V8 makes and models, Chrysler 300s, Montecarlos, Fusions, Mercedes, BMWs but let them run the strongest/ cheapest and available gearbox, diff, brake road car parts and emphasize to the public this fact and again power to weight managed. Full Race Saloons has to be Trans ams, a class that has been around for years with a good solid set of rules that again joe average could run a competitive car against the big boys. They have everything / V8s, variety, big wheels, aero, wings and because there is now a lot of V8 super tourers, incorporate them into the class. Production Muscle cars, people still like high performance road cars, Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, Cudas, Firebirds, Plymouth RTs, Commodores, Falcon FPV and there is probably even some Euros. Now days they come out with massive brake packages, 5 & 6 speed HD boxes, killer supension packages so again to keep it affordable base it on road cars from say 2000 to 2010, take all the interior out, cage them, race seat competition pads and that's it again power to weight ratio them. Put them on a road tire with only 180 tread wear to make them slip and slide and so that you get the maximum amount of miles on them before it makes a difference in times to buy a new set and of course this will limit oil surge, and with all these classes any parts needed let the competitors source their own parts not having to buy them like as some cases in the past from one particular deal. Another thing all the classes that run slicks make them run the hardest compounds again for economics and that's it . There's your Tier 1 Classes. What do ya think? When do you get time for work George,very well said,this is the road we need to go down to bring our sport back up to something that came before this Bullshit that I see out there today.

[Spgeti]

I agree with what you say re TRS Murray.....it probably is as good as it gets....it is a business and the success of it is the young fellas that come to race it all over the world for 5 weeks. We have produced ourselves some very talented young men over the last 10 years who have broken into other classes out side of NZ.....but there is little TV coverage of it and would it attract a viewing if it was televised.

This year we also have F5000's on the billing for the NZGP meeting, but I doubt that there will be the fine field we had at NZFMR.

[nigel watts]

Sounds shit hot George, be awesome , but in reality along comes those same people, (being nice here in calling them people) and slowly corrode it until they are big dog and it is down the gurgler again. Sad but motorsport in NZ has been inflicted with these people/groups for along time, and I do not see them leaving, in fact one of the main protagonists was snooping around in the F5000 sheds at Hampton, thank god the doors were open and he moved on through fairly quickly.

So who are these people and why do you, the racers, allow them to spoil everything? Surely there are more of you than there are of 'them'. Can't you get rid of them?

[Allan]

The way I see it, and this is my own personal opinion as well as NOT pointing the finger at anyone, as some of you have said the problem with many classes is not the class or it's rules that is at fault but those who run or control the class and who eventually become or see themselves as bigger than the class itself. As a demonstration of this imagine if Dale Mathers (please don't take offence Dale) did a deal with a spark plug company and made every competitor run that particular plug in HMC. It doesn't matter that the product is shit and not available in the required heat ranges but Dale owns the class and you will abide by the rules or else. And you will pay for them and no freebees, and carry large advertising stickers on your car while Dale collects the money from the plug company. So Dale (my apologies once again Dale) now owns the series and if you want to play with him you will have to pay for the privilege. And because he (Dale) can't come to a reasonable financial arrangement with a TV broadcaster then there will be no TV coverage of any kind at all so you sponsors will leave in their droves. Sound familiar?
Allan
Now Dale is not like that, or Bernie and Max, and runs a great class that is well supported and deserves all the plaudits it receives.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Did anyone see Mark Petch there.

[crunch]

Stock saloon cars, Bring back the Benson and Hedges 500. This was always a big deal in our race categories each year, approach all the new car dealers here and get them to put up some prize money and call it them run the hardest compounds again for economics and that's it .

Already in the pipeline

[fullnoise68]

The way I see it, and this is my own personal opinion as well as NOT pointing the finger at anyone, as some of you have said the problem with many classes is not the class or it's rules that is at fault but those who run or control the class and who eventually become or see themselves as bigger than the class itself. As a demonstration of this imagine if Dale Mathers (please don't take offence Dale) did a deal with a spark plug company and made every competitor run that particular plug in HMC. It doesn't matter that the product is shit and not available in the required heat ranges but Dale owns the class and you will abide by the rules or else. And you will pay for them and no freebees, and carry large advertising stickers on your car while Dale collects the money from the plug company. So Dale (my apologies once again Dale) now owns the series and if you want to play with him you will have to pay for the privilege. And because he (Dale) can't come to a reasonable financial arrangement with a TV broadcaster then there will be no TV coverage of any kind at all so you sponsors will leave in their droves. Sound familiar?
Allan
Now Dale is not like that, or Bernie and Max, and runs a great class that is well supported and deserves all the plaudits it receives.

So that's why Petes Mustang kept fouling plugs. Those spark plugs are shit Dale ......

[ElCoyote]

slipped through the F5000 shed before I got a good look

[Rod Grimwood]

Nigel, first part of question kind of answered twice, by Custaxie and ElCoyote. Second part can not be answered as no one wants to visit court.

ElCoyote, he was the one with knives and daggers hanging out of back, as air was sure moving in our area. (I presume we are thinking of same person) PS be diplomatic.

[Rod Grimwood]

Already in the pipeline

Hey Crunch that is great, you do a good job, thanks for your efforts especially with helping the "classic/historic" groups of late. All this in between being a good dad and gravel rashing, how is the garden coming on.

[Allan]

Thank you all for your input and thought. In Georges post #12 he says "give the public what they want and you will increase spectator numbers". While I fully agree I think the most important part is to give competitors what they want so as to increase the size of the fields and then the spectacle will be greater and eventually spectator numbers will increase.

[VWMS]

I think Angus Fogg answered this during the prize giving at the Highlands Festival of Speed this last weekend. " I chose to come down here this weekend instead of racing my SuperTourer at Hampton Downs"

Given that Angus has chosen to travel to another island to race for the weekend instead of attending a Tier 1 meeting just up the road, to me, speaks volumes.

Maybe Muscle Cars should be NZ's premier series if, in the minds of the spectator, it isn't already. I know I would prefer to see a weekend of Muscle cars with, GT, Clubmans, 2k Cup, Shellsport/OSCA, F5000 and Historic Touring Cars, or a combination of, as support classes.

Just my opinion

[CUSTAXIE50]

Thank you all for your input and thought. In Georges post #12 he says "give the public what they want and you will increase spectator numbers". While I fully agree I think the most important part is to give competitors what they want so as to increase the size of the fields and then the spectacle will be greater and eventually spectator numbers will increase. And how would one go about that Allan.

[Spgeti]

I checked the Manfeild website this morning.....TRS, Toyota 86's, NZV8's, Formula Ford's, Formula First and F5000's and Central Muscle Cars. The weekend starts off on Friday evening with a fireworks display, drifting and motorbike displays and entertainment.
A display of historic race cars to celebrate the 60th running of the NZGP.
I have no idea of the sizes of the grids but I will go for the Muscle Cars, F5000s and NZV8's.

[Allan]

That, Custaxie50, is like asking for the meaning of life.
It is my personal opinion that most of us involved in the construction or modification of saloon cars prefer to work to a simple set of rules that make whatever they allow easily achievable while allowing us to have a greater input of ideas as to how this is achieved. By that I mean that a situation like the NZV8 supertourers where the chassis are all identical is not my idea of an ideal class. Please don't get me wrong, with a full field of entries these can be quite spectacular, but we need just that, a full field to create the spectacle that will get the punters bums on seats. But those cars are all the same except for a few bolt on panels and the badges. It doesn't matter how excited the commentators get about the "Ford verses Holden" stuff but in reality they are all an identical space frame and Chevy motor. To me the NZV8s are better because at least they start will a real car and turn it into a race car allowing those who build and maintain them to have some input into how they achieve the end result. I actually feel the same about the Aussie V8 supercars but they attract large crowds because of brand loyalty and the spectacle that the sometimes put on. I find the DTM to be so far away from reality as to be not worth watching.
I have thought for some time that world motorsport needs a class where it is possible to build a car anywhere in the world and be competitive. But it would have to be a class based on real cars not some quasi silhouette hot rod. For example how about a world wide class based on basic 4 door saloons running 6 cylinder engines up to 4 litres with no aero other than that fitted to the original base model, no great big flared gaurds, with no paddle or sequential gearboxes and major restrictions on wheels brakes and tyres. And on the point of tyres leave that open for competitors to use whatever they want within restrictions placed on them over sizes and quantity per meeting. Why? Because it gets a greater number of tyre companies involved which must benefit the series. And then hold a world series in as many different countries as possible, just like the old group A. We have in both NZ and Aus the skills and people to build a winner give a "sensible" set of rules. I think what tends to happen is the rules get too complicated and too expensive to allow for the backyard guys who would get involved in such projects.
It is also my belief that apart from the once a year visit of the Aussie V8s most motorsport is run for competitors and not spectators. If you went to the Ganley festival and looked at the crowd most there had been involved in some way in motorsport during their lives.
Allan

[Monaro1]

Hi all. Very interesting discussion these are the sorts of things i have heard so many competitors talk about at the track not the board room i have say and we all seem to have the same general ideas. I would say in responds to why do we ''let them do this to us" it's the same as why we let local and central goverment "do it to us'' its the type of people who get into those jobs if the likes of Dale and George were running motorsport i would think it would be different.

Here are a couple of ideas get rid of the one make corporate backed series most of these (Mini challenge, nissan sentra, 86 etc etc) have
no substance no grass roots support and as such will fall over after 5 years. Have the classes controlled by the competitors not motorsport nz thay can handle the promotional side of things only. As far as what sort of classes there is no need to reinvent the wheel
just look at what has worked before Group A. B&H, Sport Sedans and the original NZV8's

Here is my idea late model Mustang, Camaro, Commodore, Falcon, BMW, Merc, Camry etc semi production remove interior seats add cage race springs, shocks good brakes aftermarket 4/5speed box a few mods to the engines exhaust say call it Thunder Saloons support class Muscle cars, Pro 7, Formula Ford, old NZV8 cars on semi slicks and GT. Don't just copy the Aussie's Supertourers will always be seen by the public as poor mans V8 Supercars and those type of cars are unaffordable in a country of 4 million, Also don't blame the mark petch's of this world people like him will always put there own interests first its the people who let them run things that are to blame. But that just my opinion.

[cooper64]

Hi all. Very interesting discussion these are the sorts of things i have heard so many competitors talk about at the track not the board room i have say and we all seem to have the same general ideas. I would say in responds to why do we ''let them do this to us" it's the same as why we let local and central goverment "do it to us'' its the type of people who get into those jobs if the likes of Dale and George were running motorsport i would think it would be different.

Here are a couple of ideas get rid of the one make corporate backed series most of these (Mini challenge, nissan sentra, 86 etc etc) have
no substance no grass roots support and as such will fall over after 5 years. Have the classes controlled by the competitors not motorsport nz thay can handle the promotional side of things only. As far as what sort of classes there is no need to reinvent the wheel
just look at what has worked before Group A. B&H, Sport Sedans and the original NZV8's

Here is my idea late model Mustang, Camaro, Commodore, Falcon, BMW, Merc, Camry etc semi production remove interior seats add cage race springs, shocks good brakes aftermarket 4/5speed box a few mods to the engines exhaust say call it Thunder Saloons support class Muscle cars, Pro 7, Formula Ford, old NZV8 cars on semi slicks and GT. Don't just copy the Aussie's Supertourers will always be seen by the public as poor mans V8 Supercars and those type of cars are unaffordable in a country of 4 million, Also don't blame the mark petch's of this world people like him will always put there own interests first its the people who let them run things that are to blame. But that just my opinion.

just clearing something here , mini challenge should be MINI challenge ,( MINI is BMW, mini is Austin Morris Rover ,real minis ) bring back real racing

[Kiwiboss]

Hi all. Very interesting discussion these are the sorts of things i have heard so many competitors talk about at the track not the board room i have say and we all seem to have the same general ideas. I would say in responds to why do we ''let them do this to us" it's the same as why we let local and central goverment "do it to us'' its the type of people who get into those jobs if the likes of Dale and George were running motorsport i would think it would be different.

Monaro1, i do it because i have a passion, same with George S, John M, Steve E, Ray G, Rhy's and many others involved in old car motorsport. We/I are not in it for financial gain, infact is costs us like you wouldn't believe but for me i don't play golf, or have a flash boat, beach bach or anything else in life, infact i probably have NO life(compared to some) LOL, and although i have a passion for old Saloon Car Motorsport i do not care much for the newer so called tier 1 or 2 event class's because the fact of life is(we only need to look at he past) it will NEVER work, they will have their good years but mostly it will always be a struggle!! you see when the ultimate goal is to WIN(which is what these class's are about) there will always be someone with a bigger cheque book, better sponsor, expensive lawyer, and on and on that will manipulate the class, the rules, the people(or whatever) to their advantage to make sure they do WIN(at all cost) and this eventually drives other competitors away. Now, not tryin to be negative here but lets look at the good old days that i like, say from 66 to 74, it was the same back them, every year Fahey turned up with the latest machinery to WIN and that is what it took for him to win(and good on him) but it just made all the others spend more money do the same until it imploded(and Shell Sport started, 1978). See with open wheel cars you can't hide too many tricks as one can see them(mostly) so they are usually very similar(FF, FV, etc) but put a body on it and the clever buggars go at it, LOL.

I watched a DVD were Parnelli Jones gave a speech(some 20 years ago) when the US had both cart and IRL and both were struggling to survive!! he said if someone invented a "Washer" and that washer made the car go faster or made more power but that "washer" cost hundred grand, all you have done is made everyone spend a hundred grand(get the idea?) and hence the vicious circle begins. Also you cannot compare NASCAR or V8 Supercars as both these class's are professional Motorsport were a living is been earned and people are paid, with 4.5 million people there is no doubt we(NZ) cannot do it this way.

This is a great posting and like myself, everyone has an opinion so keep them coming. Crunch, im hope im wrong?

Enjoy

Dale M

[ERC]

You are getting very eloquent these days Dale! Good post. Money indeed seems to be the major problem but when there is any 100% control class, we lose sight of the fact that it has always been a sport that involved talented engineers and car builders, not just drivers.

Tier 1 should maybe have more open formulae with fewer rules (engine capacity, tyre width, rev limits, aero packages) where there is an overall cost cap and at the end of the season, any car can be bought for a maximum number of $.

On another thread, there is a discussion raging about the Super Tourers where they mention that the front bar (splitter/bumper) made out of carbon fibre and Kevlar has to be imported from Australia , at a cost of $3,5000 plus GST and freight.

With all components being controlled, there is no room for innovation. There is a very good reason why Kiwi engineers are respected world wide, particularly by race teams, and the current Tier 1 structure leaves no outlet for them to develop their innovative skills.

Those proposing a production car formula with no body mods are ignoring history. We want to see cars that may well have had their origins in the car showroom, once upon a time, but the widened arches, splitters and wings are what make us go 'Wow, a race car!'

HMC cars run historically correct cars that hark back to a time when each car looked different anyway, so there is now little or no need to make them look interesting, that is for the Historic Special Saloons class. Those were the cars that really excited us then and will continue to do so - but there is no Tier 1 modern equivalent. Everything is now too sanitized in a mistaken belief that all we want to see is identical cars racing door handle to door handle in a quest for perceived parity.

Unlike Dale, I do have a life, but I certainly don't run a series for any benefit, financial or otherwise. I still run it because unlike 1996 when I started with this series, only two or three competitors had computers and running an event meant a mail out of 400 sets of three page regulations, which took forever and cost a small fortune. Keeping in touch via telephone or snail mail was a massive time killer too.

Sitting at a keyboard and being able to send out all info just as fast as it could be typed and forcing everyone to get internet access for all communications has ensured the longevity of the series. It is still an onerous task with over 100 drivers, but manageable.

Tier 1 as someone pointed out, with manufacturer backed series, are always very short lived anyway and never manage to engage the general public and they never will. Ford vs Holden is dying, if not already dead anyway and I never bought into either camp.

The fewer makes/models on a race programme, the lower the spectator interest.

[Oldfart]

Aren't there some well thought and well formed points of discussion here?
I really don't know whether there is any chance of our beloved sport gaining huge spectator numbers again. In days of old(!) things like the GP and even the better club meetings gained large numbers because there was not a lot else to do, or go to. That is no longer the case. Remember when MANZ, as it was, would decline a permit application because there was a similar event in a reasonable geographic radius? Now our sport has to compete with all sorts, often times conflicting motoring based things. The Festival was on the same weekend (one of them anyway) as Kumeu Swap meet and Hot rod, yes a lot of people go to one or the other, but Kumeu was heaving with people on the Saturday, and many of the same I spotted at HD Sunday. That does not take any account of other sports at all, and with most folks with much smaller discretionary money to spend they have to make a choice.
As for the classes, in my opinion, none of those promulgated by the hierarchy in recent years have had any appeal. Full stop.
When the NZGP was run for Formula Fords I lost interest and yet to be re-kindled. Close racing is not the answer, and I don't know why, just look back at any old footage, races were won by big margins.
For the true enthusiast the saying "rubbing is racing" is just not true. Most of us respect both the longevity of the vehicles and the safety of the drivers. For me, as soon as that stuff starts I am "out of here", both as a spectator and from any other aspect. If you want to see that go to the dirt ovals.
The ovals can actually show lot, quick fire races, packed programmes, vocal informed commentators (most of the time) and it is a hell of a show. Of course, that is part of it, motorsport is NOT about racing cars any more, it is a spectacle for the crowd which just happens to be based around cars. Perhaps that's why the sport is suffering, it's not a spectacle, and the cars selected don't encourage that.

[John McKechnie]

Rhys- +1

[John H]

Rhys- +1
I think the ST class is a great concept and must have taken a lot of effort and tenacity to put together. Would love to know why its not thriving?
I remember Aussie tried briefly the Nascar type car around the Gold Coast and other tracks with the concept of a very simple car concept with Bob Jane. Perhaps we should try that formula of car? This country is awash with those who could build them.

Perhaps we need to forget about Australia and accept our small population and just do our own thing?
These are just questions.

[Kevin Hirst]

I think the ST class is a great concept and must have taken a lot of effort and tenacity to put together. Would love to know why its not thriving?
I remember Aussie tried briefly the Nascar type car around the Gold Coast and other tracks with the concept of a very simple car concept with Bob Jane. Perhaps we should try that formula of car? This country is awash with those who could build them.

Perhaps we need to forget about Australia and accept our small population and just do our own thing?
These are just questions.

Wasn't the small replica holden/ falcon /v8 coupe powered by motor cycles motors built for that purpose? what happened there? lack of interest or what ?

[John McKechnie]

They still love their little Aussie battlers- in fact I think they were at Highland Park as one of the support acts.
There are profiles with chassis and engines- sound familiar?

[paul lancaster]

Wasn't the small replica holden/ falcon /v8 coupe powered by motor cycles motors built for that purpose? what happened there? lack of interest or what ?

Hi kev, I think you will find that mr quinn owns the aussie racing car series, so pretty unlikely you will see them run any where, other than highlands park

[Allan]

To add another bit to the mix comes the word "classic". To my simple way of thinking the Targa classic cut of date of 1992 is way wrong. What some folks call "classics" I tend to look at as hotrods. Don't get me wrong on this, when I look at some of these "hotrods" I see some absolutely beautiful work and preparation and congratulate the builder, but a 1965 car with a 1999 motor is not a "classic".
I believe that the cut off date for a "classic" should be 1980 with a run on for models absolutely identical to those registered/produced before 1980.
So having said that how about the original motor, two valves per cylinder, on carburetors (except where fuel injection was standard on that particular model and then one must use the original system), transmission from the same manufacturer but used before 1980, brakes free but from the same manufacturer, 14 inch wheels, standard body shell (no add on aerodynamic aids) etc. Keep it simple, keep it cheap but allow for some creativity. Allow special models that existed at the time to be recreated within the rules. The model range here is massive and includes Escort, many Fiat models, Alfa, Toyota, Mitsi, Datsun, Hillman Avenger and many more. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Oldfart]

Allan I agree with you, in fact I tried to donate a trophy for Targa for the highest placed true "Classic" which had similar guidelines to what you suggest. The offer was declined.
Cars should be dated by the newest of the major components, shell/chassis, engine, transmission in my opinion. So your 1965 example with a 1999 motor is a '99. If it has a Jericho box, then whatever year that is.

[ERC]

1980 is now a long time ago - 35 years, but we'll never agree on what constitutes classic - or Thoroughbred!

Agree with Oldfart that the newest major component dictates the age, though we have to be careful here as older gearboxes are now getting scarce so the practice of fitting a Toyota 5 speed is done for reliability and ease of maintenance and preservation of the original. Running an original gearbox that only last three laps every time it races is a sure recipe for a car being garaged.

If a crossflow head was available and used in period on a BMC A Series or B Series engine, would you now ban them?

Brakes free - but from the same manufacturer? I don't really see the point.

Probably doesn't really belong in this thread, but responding to Allan...

Why 14" wheels? It makes no sense all, given that many older classics used 16" and 15" wheels anyway.

The critical thing is "Where can I run my car and what is the allowed format?" (ie Targa, sprint races, hillclimbs, endurance races etc.)

It may be the tail wagging the dog but this is now a tired subject that effectively boils down to getting sufficient numbers to make any class or event viable.

We allow period transplants so a 1999 engine in a 1965 car is a no-no, but a 1970 engine is OK - within certain criteria and judged on an individual basis.

I wonder how many cars from F5000 down, are using engines and componentry built pre 1980 and 100% exactly as raced in period?

The more restrictions you try to impose, the bigger the can of worms trying to police it. If we are mixing a 1300cc Escort with a V8 Corvette, then the winner is going to be pretty obvious anyway.

Generally, Classic racing is about amateurs enjoying their cars on track. Simple as that.

[Howard Wood]

We allow period transplants so a 1999 engine in a 1965 car is a no-no, but a 1970 engine is OK - within certain criteria and judged on an individual basis.

You say that Ray and I understand the reasons for your pragmatic approach but the fact is you allow big capacity alloy Cosworth YB derived engines in your series. The base engine was built from 1986 to 1997, not too far from your 1999 example and the S & J Alloy motor was, according to their website, first developed in 2006!

[ERC]

Fair comment Howard, but apart from the combined classes at the Festival, where we were oversubscribed, I see no value in chucking out cars just as long as they are driven in a gentlemanly manner. When the time comes that we have to weed out those cars outside the basic rules because the grids are over full, we will.

Oh that Tier 1 grids were so full that they needed to subdivide. As it is, they could combine at least three different groups and still have grid spaces going begging. What does that tell us?

[John McKechnie]

Howard-Quite simple really- With the moving towards COD and cars having a relevant schedule, then that will identify which cars are actually Historic, Classic, Replica and Club .
HMC cars already must have COD defining the engine, S & J engined cars will eventually need to find an accepting class

[Kiwiboss]

Really Ray, REALLY!!


Generally, Classic racing is about amateurs enjoying their cars on track. Simple as that.

Although you say "Generally" I think not! and its not as simple as that either.

So an "Amateur" enjoying his "Supertourer" on track would be considered(to you) "Classic Racing" Hmmm

To me Classic racing is ONLY about the car and about its correctness(EG: period components from the era, etc)

Been enjoyed by an amateur driver is what the experience is about, as it is for most of us(EG:the FUN factor)

Dale M

[ERC]

Not quite Dale. What I meant was that the majority of classic drivers are amateurs enjoying themselves. There are of course many other genres catering for amateurs driving modern cars!

If the 100 or so other drivers in our group are happy enough, then WE don't have a problem. If others outside the group have an issue, that is their choice. We already have it within our rules that if 15% of the paid up membership object to a specific car, then it is out.

There are now sufficient classes around that just about all cars have somewhere to run. The numbers speak for themselves and drivers then align themselves accordingly.

[Jac Mac]

That, Custaxie50, is like asking for the meaning of life.
It is my personal opinion that most of us involved in the construction or modification of saloon cars prefer to work to a simple set of rules that make whatever they allow easily achievable while allowing us to have a greater input of ideas as to how this is achieved. By that I mean that a situation like the NZV8 supertourers where the chassis are all identical is not my idea of an ideal class. Please don't get me wrong, with a full field of entries these can be quite spectacular, but we need just that, a full field to create the spectacle that will get the punters bums on seats. But those cars are all the same except for a few bolt on panels and the badges. It doesn't matter how excited the commentators get about the "Ford verses Holden" stuff but in reality they are all an identical space frame and Chevy motor. To me the NZV8s are better because at least they start will a real car and turn it into a race car allowing those who build and maintain them to have some input into how they achieve the end result. I actually feel the same about the Aussie V8 supercars but they attract large crowds because of brand loyalty and the spectacle that the sometimes put on. I find the DTM to be so far away from reality as to be not worth watching.
I have thought for some time that world motorsport needs a class where it is possible to build a car anywhere in the world and be competitive. But it would have to be a class based on real cars not some quasi silhouette hot rod. For example how about a world wide class based on basic 4 door saloons running 6 cylinder engines up to 4 litres with no aero other than that fitted to the original base model, no great big flared gaurds, with no paddle or sequential gearboxes and major restrictions on wheels brakes and tyres. And on the point of tyres leave that open for competitors to use whatever they want within restrictions placed on them over sizes and quantity per meeting. Why? Because it gets a greater number of tyre companies involved which must benefit the series. And then hold a world series in as many different countries as possible, just like the old group A. We have in both NZ and Aus the skills and people to build a winner give a "sensible" set of rules. I think what tends to happen is the rules get too complicated and too expensive to allow for the backyard guys who would get involved in such projects.
It is also my belief that apart from the once a year visit of the Aussie V8s most motorsport is run for competitors and not spectators. If you went to the Ganley festival and looked at the crowd most there had been involved in some way in motorsport during their lives.
Allan

Before adopting the NZV8 TL category as a basis for this series the rules need a thorough going over. There has been a 'loophole' in the engine specifications since inception that should be addressed. There is no specified/minimum deck height or piston pin height for either Ford or Holden and this has/is being exploited by decking the Ford block ~0.130" along with custom pistons, this 'mod' requires several 'cuts' of the deck surface, the custom pistons, shorter push rods,intake manifold machine work along with other bits and pieces. Same mods attempted on the Holden create a problem with head bolts due to reduced thread count.
Holden only gets a cast crank which does not seem to like living long term with the abuse from dog boxes.
Don't get me wrong, I think the class could form the basis for what you describe, just long overdue for some sensible rewording.

[Rod Grimwood]

Jac you have just hopefully started the 'first' bit of sensible wording.

[Shoreboy57]

apparently STs have cancelled their South Island trip - down to just 5 cars! Decision on Puke to be made in a couple of weeks.
They shoot horses don't they?

[Rod Grimwood]

This is a warning to the DRIFT 1NZ group, if anyone reads this or are interested, only 'an observation', but been there done that.

The next motorsport to suffer the 'wallet' syndrome will be Drift. Over the last couple of years they have started shooting themselves in the foot. The top 1/2 dozen or so have taken the sponsorship dollars from the sport (not saying unfairly, but there are only so many sponsor dollars) and now have big horsepower special built cars that are way out of the original concept and now its about beat the next guy to the first corner and game over.
This is a trend in all motorsport, it gets off real good and spectacular with guys in basic cars all around the same horsepower and the young fellas watching say 'that's neat I can do that in my car' and join in and you have big field. Then the money comes in and some turn up with super horse power engines and custom built cars and the average guy is left in the 'smoke'.
If you want your sport to survive, Keep it limited to a horsepower level, weight restriction, and all on same tyre and then the guy from down the road can compete on equal terms.
Yep build special cars, but as mentioned limit horsepower, weight, tyres, and then driver comes into it, and lets be fair the top guys would still prevail under experience, talent, but the average guy who fills the pits and stadium up has a 'fighting chance' and will still see the car he is 'chasing' and will not wander off thinking 'I got no show, so bugger this' and is lost to the sport.

Just a thought from what I have watched over few years, and I enjoy watching it but can see the gap getting bigger and the average and not so average (dads) wallet getting stretched until it pops.

[Allan]

You make a good point Rod, but our sport has been like that from year dot. If you look back to what some consider the "good old days" it was those that had the backing or where with all that did the best. As an example in the early Tasman days you had three levels, firstly the internationals, secondly the locals with the previous years cars and then the rest.
The question I would ask is are there too many different classes or series in today's motorsport, particularly at the grass roots level. But as a rider to that question look at the competitor numbers in such classes as ERC and HMC. Would combining some of the less frequented classes help or for that matter work.
And then along comes the Ssangyong utes with 30 plus entries. My prediction for that class is that the push and shove, crash and bash that often comes with a one make series will thin the fields when when the panel beating bills start to mount. I hope not.
Allan

[Oldfart]

Is this THE premier race series or A premier.
If it is one of a few, then a saloon based class has a chance. If it is to be THE then it must be single seater cars IMHO. To me one make won't do the business. The cars need to be different so that there are apparent technologies.

[paul lancaster]

V8supertourers have cancelled there next round at timaru citing,"not enough numbers",not many nails left in that there coffin!

[rf84]

The anecdotal evidence would suggest that the majority of people on this Forum have a strong interest in saloon cars. But if we are debating which is THE premier class of race cars in NZ then arguably it is the Toyota Racing Series. The number of overseas drivers and teams continues to grow, the cars look good and the racing is close. In the final qualifying session at the GP meeting at Manfeild a mere .633 of a second separated the first 16 cars! Would loved to have seen the driver's face when his team told him "We have some good news and some bad news. The good news is you broke the old lap record. The bad news is you are 16th on the grid!"

[Rod Grimwood]

Does any one have a copy of 'wide wheels' August 1969 there is a great article on the 'Problems' of NZ Motorsport in the July 1969 copy with 2nd part in August copy. (I do not have August) Under heading 'Suggested Racing Formulae Bryan Faloon'. Very interesting read and would love to see final part.

I will scan and try and size 1st part of write up that is in July magazine, and post it's interesting read.