New Zealand Pre 61 Saloon Register

[Oldfart]

Previously this was called "Going Even Older".
As of last night we have a set of "Guidelines" for pre 61 saloons.
The initial focus is for the 2014 Roycroft meeting, but "Watch this space". There WILL be more opportunities to use these cars.
The basic premise is that we are providing a place for enthusiasts to take their eligible vehicles for a thrash. This is NOT intended to be an older version of Pre 65s. With that in mind, here are the guidelines. This is it. After a period it is likely that the people taking part will meet for suggestions in the light of experience.

Guide lines for pre 1961 saloon car class

1. All vehicles as defined by the rules of the VCCNZ and accepted under those rules are eligible for speed events. Subject to organisers approval. These regulations further define what is expected in this class of vehicle competing in pre 1961 period specification and any vehicle not meeting the spirit of these regulations may be excluded.

2. All vehicles must be entered by a financial member of the VCCNZ or a club affiliated to Motorsport NZ

3. The driver on the day must be a financial member of the VCCNZ. .or a club affiliated to Motorsport NZ

4. Current VCC ID card, log book and historic racing licence or current Motorsport licence and log book must be presented.

5. All production cars must retain full interior trim (period race seat acceptable) and full exterior trim. Except in the case of genuine historic racing vehicles which may compete in their original racing configuration. Hub caps-wheel trims must be removed & headlights taped before scrutineering

6. All vehicles other than those with genuine status shall be WOF standard.

7. Tyres must comply with log book specs and the following regulations.
• General
Tyre compound and construction must respect the specifications that were applicable to the period the vehicle represents. Chassis and suspension componentry were designed to accept the loads and forces induced by the tyres of any given period. To install a tyre of improved technology could impose loadings that exceed the chassis and suspension design parameters.
• Race tyre for circuit racing and speed events
Cars in period 1931-1961 must use Dunlop vintage or L section racing tyres which have 204 compound only and tread pattern CR65 or earlier.
• Road tyres
All cars may as an alternative to using period racing tyres use tyres suitable for legal road use (ie DOT approved road tyres having 2mm minimum tread depth across 75% of the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference of the tyre. Aspect ratio is restricted to 70% minimum.
• The tread pattern must be in keeping with the period the vehicle represents.
Any road tyre used in a race or speed event must have a speed rating compatible with the capability of the car.

8. Wheels must be of original diameter up to 4.5” maximum width and of steel construction. Wheels of greater width may be used if it can be proved they were a factory option for the make and model of vehicle concerned or were used on the vehicle concerned prior to the cutoff date

9. Cars to be dated by the newer of 2 items:
◦ Chassis/body shell or;
◦ Engine

10 Engines should be of the type available in the body shell to pre 1961 specifications. Modifications to be of those available pre 1961.Engine swaps may be considered subject to the vehicle having a LVVTA Certification plate and provided that the engine is pre 1961 Prior approval should be obtained from the organising committee

11 Engines may be Supercharged but not TurboCharged.

12 Gearbox must be pre 1961.

13 Suspension and steering to be of original configuration. Swaybars (anti roll), track rods and axle location rods may be added where documentation can be supplied by the entrant to show that this was available in the period.

14 Disc brakes may be fitted if documented proof is supplied of availability in period for that make and model of car and of the same specification.

15 Date carry over to be accepted on case by case basis.

16 Any proposed major modifications should be referred to the event organiser prior to commencement for approval.

Any questions can either go here, or PM me for contact details.

[CobraV8]

Would like to race my mini in this, but cooper s starts in 64, pre 65 too serious and rough.

[Steve Holmes]

This is great news Rhys! I hope this takes off, I think its a great idea. Just a quick question, have you considered adopting an existing set of regulations to take the hassle out of putting the rules together yourselves? There are FIA Historic touring car regulations already in place, although I can't recall the cut-off date. It could possibly be earlier than 1961?

This was racing at the Goodwood Revival on the weekend:

21533

[Oldfart]

We have looked at all the overseas rules, and spoken by phone with most of the co-ordinators who happily told us of the short-comings in their rules.
We are also governed by the agreement between Motorsport NZ and the Vintage Car Club which imposes the cut off dates. Yes I know Cobra that we have to exclude your car, I am sorry, but there is AES and Arrow which would cater for you.
Buy an A30?

[Spgeti]

Steve, I have recently seen a very nice VX490, 1963 but again to late for Rhys's cut off date. Cool photo and good luck to Rhys with his group. I need to buy an early Alfa or Fiat.....

[CobraV8]

A 1959 mini 850 could still be competitive somehow!

[Oldfart]

A 1959 mini 850 could still be competitive somehow!

Yes it could, and read the "period mods" bit Likewise read the very first (#1) rule and the premise. Go away from the spirit, and you might not get to come back!
So now find a GENUINE pre 1961 Mini, magic wand stick, etc :)
BYW lets hear from you guys, this is supposed to be fun. There might be the odd chocolate fish, or lemons given out at the post match function, but don't look for prizes.
There will be NO sponsorship signage either. As it was, so it shall be.

[CobraV8]

Sounds like a challenge! I like the idea, about time there was a class that isn't too focused on bashing into each other.

[Oldfart]

Sounds like a challenge! I like the idea, about time there was a class that isn't too focused on bashing into each other.
In this class I won't wait for the "bashing into each other". If someone looks like they are heading in that direction they will be requested to leave (and won't have future entry considered).

[Oldfart]

Well it's on. The first event officially, is the Roycroft Trophy 8/9 March 2014. Practice and 3 races Saturday, 4 races Sunday. Eligible vehicles would also be welcomed at Taupo Nov 30/Dec 1. Roycroft entry is $160. That's pretty good for the amount of track time.
It WILL go ahead. I won't promise to buy cars and find drivers like George did :)
We now have a name too
Pre 61 Saloon Register.

[Shoreboy57]

Well done. Great to see the variety of historic classes developing to bring out more cars. Exactly why V8 "Supercars" no longer appeal

[Steve Holmes]

Well it's on. The first event officially, is the Roycroft Trophy 8/9 March 2014. Practice and 3 races Saturday, 4 races Sunday. Eligible vehicles would also be welcomed at Taupo Nov 30/Dec 1. Roycroft entry is $160. That's pretty good for the amount of track time.
It WILL go ahead. I won't promise to buy cars and find drivers like George did :)
We now have a name too
Pre 61 Saloon Register.
Steve, is it possible to change the thread header to reflect this?

Great stuff Rhys, I really hopes this takes off!

[Kiwiboss]

This is fantastic Rhys, but please use the original historic rules as used overseas for guidelines rather than reinvent the wheel, with some Kiwi adjustments off-course!! I see this working well as HMC and HSC(Historic Saloon Cars, U3L) will cater for post 61 vehicles so this gives us a firm 1961 to 12/1977 vehicle period and when approached by anyone wanting to race a pre 61 saloon we can send them in your direction!! The VCC Roycroft meeting is an excellent place to start, cant see how this wont take off but be firm!!

PS: Why are we doing NOW what MSNZ should have done 30 years ago as they did in Australia?

Dale M

[Oldfart]

Hi Dale, as we have said there has been a couple of years of consultation with most overseas groups and taken them on board from suggestions. Personally I did want a bit more but there are "powers above me".
MSNZ, previously MANZ lost the plot a number of times, and forgot that grass roots is where it all starts and if you wanted to throw a date at when they did that.... :)

[Steve Holmes]

Sure you've probably read this Rhys, but here are the FIA Appendix J Pre 1961 Historic Touring Car Regulations. Makes for good reading I think, and well thought out. Adopting these would allow people to either buy existing cars from overseas, and/or race their cars overseas if they wish, plus you could eventually invite international touring car drivers to race their cars in NZ, just as the VCC does with historic single seaters and sports cars.

But people do respond well to a well laid out set of regulations where they always know where they stand if building a car. Also gives you guys running the show something to refer to, and to provide this info to those building cars: http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/Appendix%20J%20-%201961%20ANG.pdf

[Allan]

Does the carry over rule apply here?

[GeebeeNZ]

Allan, That's an interesting question and the answer may be no. Given that the last Mini was driven off the production line by Lulu in the year 2000 I don't think that its intended that it be a home for retired Mini Sevens. Motorsport NZ does have an agreement with VCC allowing pre 1961 cars to race on circuits but I am not too sure whether that includes carry over vehicles. However Motorsport NZ does allow carry over vehicles to run in Motorsport NZ events without roll protection such as Post 1960 Daimler SP 250 and MGA mainly because there is little difference between them and their pre 1961 brothers.

[Allan]

Thanks for that GB. When I consider the carry over rule I tend to think of a vehicle that is IDENTICAL to one made before the cut off date. A couple that spring to mind are the Mini (848cc floor start long lever) and the Anglia (997cc). The moment an alteration of any kind is made then it ceases to be a carry over vehicle. If such a rule is to be used the we need an eligibility committee to decide if a particular competitors vehicle is eligible or not and then communicate that to every other competitor asking for objections. Or failing that come up with a definitive list of eligible carry over models.

[Oldfart]

Hi Allan, there is a committee already in place, and if you look at the guidelines (Post #1) it clearly states that carry over is on a case by case basis.
In most cases committees tend to produce camels, in part that is why this has taken the better part of 2 years to get off the ground.
As previously commented, I did contact most overseas organisations and universally they suggested not using their own rules. Of course we would welcome any Australian Na car, and the FIA J fits. Many if not most St Marys Trophy cars would not fit as they have engines which are too new.
I would also like to remind all that this is intended as a place for people to take their appropriately dated cars for an enthusiastic thrash with like minded people. It's something of a different mindset for the racers of this world to understand.
Personally, I would like to see a variety of period vehicles rather than a bunch of near to cut off date cars. Think 56 Humber 80, A35, Vanguard Riley Pathfinder etc

Please, anyone contemplating something, contact me. pre61saloonregister@gmail.com

[Oldfart]

I have a ruling from "on high" in regards carry over.
If a person with knowledge of the car in question could say "That could be within the year" it would be accepted. If there are major differences, then the answer is likely no.
2 examples from "Marques I have knowledge" A Peugeot 403, remained almost identical from 56 to 63, so no issue. Triumph Herald had significant changes from even 1960 to 63, so the later car would likely not be OK. Currently a Triumph Herald Coupe on Trade Me, repowered with a 13/60 motor. The car is OK, the motor not.
I have been told we already have; Mk2 Zephyr with Historic Race status, Jaguar Mark 7 (now returned to correct period wheels) A30 Speedwell, V8 Coupe, probable Standard 10, 107E, another V8 Coupe, possible Citroen Light 15, DKW, Humber 80.
4 and a bit months to go, and of course these do not have to be "race cars". Take out the spare wheel, picnic basket, rug on the back seat and the tools, and come and have a number of "enthusiastic" drives. Probably practice + 3 or 4 races (runs) each day!
pre61saloonregister@gmail.com

[ERC]

I really hope this takes off. Add Rover P4, Standard Ensign, Morris Minor, Austin Westminster, Jag Mk 1 etc., to the above mix. It doesn't matter what the lap times are as long as there are plenty of cars willing to put on a show. I want to see Harry's Citroen at HD's turn 2! It always looks fantastic at the Chelsea Hill Climb - which must be coming up soon.

Please let us know know when that is...

[Oldfart]

Hi Ray, Chelsea is next Sunday, Nov 3rd (with a rain day of the 10th)
The cars I have posted are the ones who have indicated that they wish to take part. We need to find some 15" rims for Harry, the metric (400) tyres took a pasting at the first Roycroft and they are expensive. Until that is sorted we probably won't see him at pace. Sad!

[Kiwiboss]

This class is looking good Rhys, i can see myself in a 390 61 Galaxy(not 406 or 427 as these were 62 & 3) trundling around Hampton with this lot!!When is the first event? VCC at Hampton i guess?

Dale M

[John McKechnie]

And is big enough to carry a Standard 10 in the boot as a spare when it runs out of gas on the 3rd lap.
We CAN see you in that, Dale.

[Kiwiboss]

And is big enough to carry a Standard 10 in the boot as a spare when it runs out of gas on the 3rd lap.
We CAN see you in that, Dale.

You betcha John, not that i know were i'd find the time!!!! but i do luv some of the Goodwood YouTube footage with the galaxies and small cars all racing together, those tanks look a handful that's for-sure and its great to see the small cars beating up on them :)!! this is what this pre61 class should be about, with no modern technology added!! whats that saying??? "How they were, so shall it be" something like that anyway?

Dale M

[GeebeeNZ]

Some of us are keeping an eye on trademe cars up to 1960 looking for a suitable contender but I have never owned a yank tank. However tonight I have come across a 1956 Ford Tbird. a 1955 Cadillac Coupe de ville and a 1959 Ford Edsel. Has anyone ever raced a Ford Edsel in New Zealand. That could be a first.

[Kiwiboss]

Some of us are keeping an eye on trademe cars up to 1960 looking for a suitable contender but I have never owned a yank tank. However tonight I have come across a 1956 Ford Tbird. a 1955 Cadillac Coupe de ville and a 1959 Ford Edsel. Has anyone ever raced a Ford Edsel in New Zealand. That could be a first.

Correct GeeBee, some great vehicles available rite here in NZ, and this class is similar to what we are doing with HMC, trying to keep the vehicle entry level reasonably affordable, but to me the secret of any "historic" race class is not to let "modernisation" take over were it becomes a money race to win, build a car today and it must be-able to fit the group in 10 years time and not be out classed!! this is were the Aussies got it rite with there Na, Nb, Nc historic racing, 30 years ago.

Dale M

[Jac Mac]

Some of us are keeping an eye on trademe cars up to 1960 looking for a suitable contender but I have never owned a yank tank. However tonight I have come across a 1956 Ford Tbird. a 1955 Cadillac Coupe de ville and a 1959 Ford Edsel. Has anyone ever raced a Ford Edsel in New Zealand. That could be a first.

59/60 Edsel or T/bird would be the go 430 cu in on that MEL with the O-Drive glass box, they used 9" rear axles as well, drum brakes might be an issue, but seeing your going to allow 'enthusiastic' driving then just chuck her sideways at the last second.....counting the seconds before Dale dreams up a rule to counter such antics...:)

[Oldfart]

cars beating up on them :)!! this is what this pre61 class should be about, with no modern technology added!! whats that saying??? "How they were, so shall it be" something like that anyway?

Dale M

Post #7 has the saying. As it was, so it shall be. The Galaxy on skinny wheels and the drum brakes would be good! Except Dale it won't be a 61! Pre 31 December 1960 is the date.
And you are right about the modernisation. I spoke with the co-ordinator of group Na, and was told they made mistakes, but too late to go back now.
I also love the St Marys footage from Goodwood, another class where I phoned the co-ordinator and was told they got it wrong with the cut off for later componentry allowed. It might look like a '57 A30, but has much newer components, and again they regret where they got to. Named race drivers does not help there either, especially when they don't care what happens to either the car they are driving nor the one they just rubbed.

[ERC]

Agree. Sadly, Goodwood has degenerated in driving behaviour over the years, as it appears that too many people attach too much prestige to winning. We have seen some very expensive cars badly damaged, as some of these drivers have too little respect for the cars or mobile history, and some of the rich owners are no better for recruiting these hard chargers.

As we keep saying over here, the stars are the cars and over-driving is just not tolerated. If there is a sizeable speed difference, then for goodness sake, run handicap races, then it doesn't matter who wins and encourages drivers to seek out cars that are interesting.

I'm not sure that saloon car racing in the UK benefitted from the introduction of the Ford Galaxies, and I sincerely hope that potential entrants here, can see that seeking out a load of cars car with massive 427cu ins engines is going to kill off the series before it has even started.

I'd rather be looking at a Morris Minor, Standard 10 or an Austin A35, something fairly common, fairly cheap, not too quick but easy to maintain in standard trim - but I wouldn't care too much for racing amongst a field of small aircraft carriers!

[John McKechnie]

+1

[AMCO72]

You know, there hasn't been much humour on the roaring season for a while, not in fact since the early days when there were some good stories posted on yards and yarns, or when we were 'discussing' the merits or otherwise of Skodas. But with the advent of Oldfarts pre 61 saloon class, I can hardly wait to see what 'hilarious' comments folk have made regarding this new class of 'racing'. I say racing, because these activities are being held on a race track where the main idea is to race.

I have to take issue with ERC when he says that he would like to see cars such as the Morris Minor, Standard ten, and A35, and other cheap, at the time, cars, and would not want to see 7 litre Fords rumbling around with all this small fry, none of which are particularly fast. For fast, read SLOW, especially in 'standard' trim. I begin to wonder whether anyone on here has actually driven any of these working class cars that were so popular in their day, and knows just how pathetically gutless they all are. To give an example........I drove my Mothers Morris Minor from Ashburton to Christchurch sometime in 1957, a distance of about 55 miles. On the day in question there was a 'stiff' nor-easter blowing, hence I had a head wind all the way. Do you know that the Minor could not cope with the wind in top gear, and I had to change into 3rd to make any progress when I couldn't slip-steam behind a truck.......I kid you not.

I am therefore having trouble imagining a Morrie racing, or to use Oldfarts term, having a good thrash, round HD, or any other track for that matter. Unless I do some considerable modification to the machine, both engine and chassis wise, it is going to be pretty boring to drive AND to watch. BUT, I am not allowed to do any modifications other than very small changes to this very basic car, and will certainly NOT corner like the Vauxhall as shown in a previous post. All the cars competing at Goodwood have been seriously uprated, and it makes for a good spectacle, something which STANDARD 50's saloon cars will not provide. I cant even put a later model cylinder head on the Morrie cos its not allowed, even though from the outside it looks, and IS identical. The only way I can get some urge and excitement into it is by adding a supercharger. When did you last see a supercharger for sale? We used to buy surplus cabin blowers from retired aircraft to do the same thing, but I doubt you will find one now, and all the old superchargers are all worn out. Remember it has to have been made prior to 1961!!!!!

A lot of these 1950 cars had column change and a lot had bench front seats. Not much location there for spirited driving. Ok, put in a race seat......what happens to the passenger seat that was part of a bench seat. Plonk in another race seat maybe. Not a problem with the Morrie, but will be on other makes. Am I not even able to change the dreadful lever-arm shock absorbers on the car to some later hydraulic ones........no because they weren't around on Morries in the 50's.

An so it goes on. When in fact did you last see a Riley Pathfinder, even in the VCC. ......and a Rover P4......they weren't call "Auntie Cars' for nothing. The only machines that are going to work are the bigger engine cars, and cars with a bit of sporting history....Jaguars. And talking of Jaguars, I hope no one thinks they are going to drop a 3.8 or a 4.2 litre engine in a Mark 7. or for that matter into a Mk1 or Mk2. They may superficially similar to a 3.4 but most definitely weren't around in the 50's. Big 6 cylinder Austins might be the go, but their cooling systems are not going to cope, despite having about 15 gallons of water to play with!!!

I think there has got to be a salutary lesson here after Georges efforts with the Sports sedans. He gave it his best shot, but after the initial burst of enthusiasm, and the adrenaline had worn off, and the owners had inspected their cars in the cold light of day, it all became just too hard just to get them back into track condition again. And remember these machines existed, sitting in someones shed, unlike the pre 61 class of car, most of which will have to be purchased from somewhere, and I will bet they are in worst condition than Georges group. Just getting them into WOF standard is going to be a mission, and that is a minimum requirement.

Now, before there is a flood of replies accusing me of being a negative bastard, I would like to point out that I would like to see this take off as much as anyone, but I would urge potential competitors to do their sums carefully. The country is littered with vehicles that have been half restored, only to bog down when money and enthusiasm has dried up. And make no mistake, this is being promoted as 'cheap' racing. There is no such thing. Even going for a good thrash is going to cost, so the whole thing better be worth while, and I have yet to meet a Morris Minor enthusiast who wants to go and do 'skids' in his pride and joy!!!!!LOL.

[ERC]

I can see both sides here, but as I remember, the UK's pre-1957 series had great racing and Austin A35's with stiffer springs made for very entertaining cornering. I don't really see the value in 100% bog standard either, but as Oldfart has already discovered, race series organisers regret some of their earlier decisions, but surely we can learn a wee bit from that? 100% bog standard - no, mildly period modified, yes, extensively modified, no. As we have also found out with our own series, the less bonnet lifting and finger pointing the better, so either leave it to a series convenor (not acommittee!) to have a set of rules that allows a degree of control, or on a driver vote.

Quite where and how you draw the line is always the $64,000 question, but as with all classes, the last thing we want is a tiny, loss making grid of pure vehicles. I just don't want to see potentially interesting cars ignored simply because they are not dragsters.

Series convenors have to be willing and able to change according to circumstances and to ensure long term survival, yet not lose sight of their original intention. Tracking our own series back 28 years shows subtle and not so subtle changes all the way, but the basic concept hasn't really changed since it was opened up 18 years ago, to allow in cars other than 4 cylinder BMC cars. Had we not opened it up, it would have sunk at least 15 years ago.

Rhys will have a pretty good idea of what he wants to achieve and how so let his vision be the guide and I for one hope he succeeds as he has identified a niche within local motorsport that could be filled.

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[Jac Mac]

Im with Gerald on this one, I think part of the problem comes from the prospective competitors being from three seperate camps, those who have raced in those glory days of the sixties, those from later years & those who did not race in either period & now want to have a go at resurrecting one of those era's. I raced in the late sixties thru~1980, started on Imps, Anglias, Cortinas, T2000, before getting into a class C IMP in OSCA & then onto the V8 Cortinas, so I know what its like to be in a tiddler & literally have your doors blown off by a big car & then later having the opportunity to do the same to a later group of small cars & I dont remember feeling threatened or bad about either situation, the other thing any damage incurred was relatively minor compared to what we see today, probably biggest fright I ever got was being passed by Inky @ a Teretonga Clubmans in the wet& he dropped a couple of tires onto the grass verge and coated the screen with grass clippings, bloody hard to drive while looking thru a silage pit!
Soo, why do I suggest something like a T/Bird with 430 cu in, I guess 45+ years of being competitive & trying to get stuff to go faster wont die off quickly,I just look for what I consider to be a 'better' choice of car to start with & eliminate those that have too many negative points. Looking back our predeccesors did the same, you did not see many 4 cyl vauxhall victors, but plenty of 3300 examples, how many 1000cc Anglias as opposed to 1340 or 1500 ones, the list goes on, the Skoda thing is quite funny as with the benefit of hindsight I reckon I could make one of those old girls quite competive if the need arose! I simply do not comprehend this cars are the stars & dont race the other guy stuff your proposing, just doesnt seem to have any real purpose at the end of it.

[ERC]

We can still race door handle to door handle, but that doesn't mean that we have to accept dodgem car tactics!

I think there is often a misapprehension that because we elect to leave racing room or allow faster cars to pass, (particularly in a handicap race) that we are not actually racing. I wasn't fortunate enough to be able to race when I was young(ish), so have no comparisions but I can say that since racing regularly, in the same car since 1991, apart from the old Hotline GT series being blown away by the full race Turbo Porsches, then the McLaren and Amon festivals, being thrown in with out and out sports racers, that racing a relatively slow road car against others of similar ilk, has been most enjoyable and in 20+ years I think I have managed a total of just two or maybe three race wins. However, the wins mean diddly squat as I have enjoyed many races even though finishing way down the field!

Remember, classics and historics is still about participation and enjoyment.

[AMCO72]

Yes, and none of the cars depicted above in the coloured photos would be eligible for this class. Look at the wheels.....they are all on widened steel rims..........not allowed!!!!! So goodness knows what is under the bonnet or holding the axles on. This is where I think the specifications are too tight. They need to be opened up a bit or we will get what ERC says and that is tiny fields with 'pure' cars.

What was the saying in the 1980's..............'there is only one thing worse than taking pictures of Lady Diana....... that is..NOT taking pictures of Lady Diana'. Same here. My diatribe above is/was meant to encourage comment. Once the discussion stops, it's all over. We do not want this subject to slip to page 3!!!!!!!!!!!

JacMac.......I have had an issue with this 'Cars are the Stars' thing right from the word go. A car by its very nature is just so much metal,rubber and plastic with a bit of water and oil thrown in for good measure. The combination of all these things does little to excite the brain UNTIL the pilot gets into the cockpit and presses the start button. Then this pile of nuts and bolts and metal comes alive. Presently warm vapours assault the senses the whole thing comes alive. So to be a star, the car needs a driver, good or bad, and then depending on the skill or otherwise of the driver will become a star.
Think of some of the cars Nuvolari drove. Many of them were not stars until he drove them.

A line up of HMC cars is very nice, but how much nicer when fired up and taken out on the track.
You will hear this phrase a lot over the next couple of months leading up to the Festival, but frankly I think it is rubbish!!!!!!!!!Likewise a group of 1950's saloons will not excite me until they are fired up and put through their antics on the track, the guy at the wheel turning the car into a STAR!!!!!

[ERC]

From memory, the pre 1957 UK rules did allow a certain amount of modification but apart from a limitation on carb size increases, wider steel wheels etc., I seem to remember springs were free (hence the two wheeling A35s) but it was a case of decent handling rather than huge horsepower.

I can admire a static car that has beauty - 250F Maserati, P25 BRM, V12 Eagle, 212 Aston - and any number of exotics, but the run of the mill does needing firing up to be of interest. The festival will of course say the cars are the stars, but as a visit to the Goodwood Festival usually proves, many static cars are indeed the stars, whereas a modern wailing screeching advertising bedecked F1 car or Aussie V8 taxi is not a star.

[Jac Mac]

Yes there are cars that should have been winners & drivers that made lesser cars look good. I remember the late Lin Neilson having a yarn to me at Teretonga one day and told me that my 1600 Ford powered Imp would always be a brave mans car!, he probably was right but as I had spent a lot of time at club gravel events with it I never felt that way about it.
Dont want to drift but the HMC thing has always amused me going under the 'Muscle Car' logo & then not allowing Corvettes, Cobras etc, that must be news to some!
Perhaps the SI has a bonus in the matter of the clubs running the three circuits & all running club championship series within their meetings, series like these being proposed can/could be trialed within these meetings to see if there is some interestwithout a lot of organisation or hassle like George had with the his setup, Going back I remember most of the local OSCA cars also ran in club events at Teretonga, still happens today with old NZV8, OSCA, Endurance cars etc, so perhaps the NI guys need to try something along those lines & run your classes within one big club race @ Manfield/HD, Taupo, & Pukekohe, be a lot easier for the circuit owners if your going to just have say three max grid 'club' races rather than a whole lot of 'mini' grid marque races.

[Oldfart]

My turn!
In regard who has driven these? Me perhaps that's why I chose Oldfart. Going up the old highway 27 in a Standard 8 in 1966 was a blast, at least for me, I'm not sure about the gf at the time nor my best mate in the back seat, right foot nailed to the floor on the way to a meeting at Puke from Matamata. Fast? No flat out, yes. Fun, in sodding great big lumps.
Take a current car through the same antics, fast? yes, flat out? no way, fun? no, boring as Coro St
Gerald, who said you can't modify? Not me! Just period mods. (don't want silhouette cars) as an example I now have an Alexander tuning document on file, and what could be done is far from restrictive.
Likewise Woodhead Munroe advert for various telescopic shock conversions. (Even Morrie 8!)
Personally I would far rather watch Mark Parsons skidding all round the circuit than someone "on rails" who barely gets out of shape. Fast not really, good to watch, you betcha!!!!
I know these cars won't be over fast, but does really fast make the spectator thing work? I suspect that armfuls of sideways, even if it is at a lower speed is way more interesting. The other bit you have missed is that a lot of people love to say, "Oh look that's just like Uncle Fred used to have, what a hoot!" I simply can not see the same with the current plastic body cars. Extreme comparison absolutely.
A few years back we were forced to do a car swap in Targa. The classic car was always chatting to the folks who came up. The much newer car meant that we were transparent.
Springs are free, even the UK guys reckon lever arms can be made to work with an alteration of oil, panhard rods, sway bars, all allowed, bigger drums, or discs on the "prove you are OK" basis. Wheels are on application, first query already approved.
If I am wrong after a few meetings I am big enough to say "I was wrong", hope you all will be too :)

Jac, sorry I can't see how your post is relevant to these at all.

BTW, good to see you back Gerald! I look forward to the banter. Where were you for Kairangi?

I keep seeing more to respond to!
Gerald, who said anything about the cylinder heads?
Who said anything about the supercharger having to be period?
You have written in stuff that is just not accurate or true. Please don't.
Have alook at UK historics, there is an "Auntie Rover" with a driver almost (but not quite) as good looking as someone close to Angus!

[John McKechnie]

+1

[AMCO72]

John......what is the +1 for?

Re cylinder heads........your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted. Well the Cooper S cylinder head was not available till 63 or 64........ has bigger valves etc so cant be used is the way I read it.

I wasn't aware that superchargers are still made, and if they were would be of modern construction and design, therefore not permissible.

Maybe I am reading too much into your guidelines, but to a casual observer like me it all sounds very restrictive, which is fine if that is what you mean. And this is where problems come in. People are always trying to bend the rules to their advantage, in any sport, and motoracing in particular. They always have and always will so maybe the guidelines have to be more specific or people will interpret them differently as I obviously have.

[John McKechnie]

Gerald- it means that I am in agreement with Rhys, you have been away from this site for too long and missed this new term. I assume you have just got back from your stated trip to Siberia.
In post #1- "The basic premise is that we are providing a place for enthusiasts to take their eligible vehicles for a thrash ".
Motor racing , it is clearly pointed out, is not the basic premise.

[Howard Wood]

Gerald- it means that I am in agreement with Rhys, you have been away from this site for too long and missed this new term

And welcome back Gerald, some of us have missed you!

[ERC]

Thanks Rhys. Spot on. Your point about Mark Parsons is particularly spot on. Cars with "attitude" do not have to be fast, but are fun to watch, fun to drive. I seem to remember James Hunt enjoying his A35 van and either Frank Sytner or Frank Williams, managed to put an A40 on its roof - in the middle of Nottingham...

[AMCO72]

Whats the difference John. You are out on a race track with others[yes] some of whom you are determined to beat [yes] This used to be called Racing. You will remember my story way back in Y & Y where I pitted the Singer against an Austin 7. We were racing, believe me, even though the speed we reached was 'only' 45 mph!!!!!!

As to the Siberia trip. Well, I was hoping you would be able to come with me to show me around as it were, but you are too damn busy with Team Holden Monaro, so I flagged it away.

[Oldfart]

Gerald, please quote where you have found "your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted."
I can't find that, and I don't really think putting an interpretation of your own is helpful. We have constantly, and consistently said "as it was, so it shall be" if someone wants to push the boundaries they might not be invited back, perhaps that's where you are coming from?
Superchargers are not uncommon on some of the mid 80s and later Toyotas! Lancias have a very similar to old style too. Again, where have I said these are not permissible, in fact there is a very specific clause.
Yes I guess you have interpreted in a way nobody else yet has, there is also a comment re proposed modifications. Outside the spirit will be suggested that a proposed participant may be invited to find a different sandpit to play in.

[Frosty5]

AMCO72-Re cylinder heads........your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted. Well the Cooper S cylinder head was not available till 63 or 64........ has bigger valves etc so cant be used is the way I read it.

So I am assuming my old 100E (59) Prefect fitted with Aquaplane gear (Alloy cyl.hd, lightened flywheel, O/S valves & springs, exhaust manifold etc from the UK) would be eligible. And fitted with Jolly wheels. Certainly gave Dad's std 64 Anglia a fright!!!

[Oldfart]

AMCO72-Re cylinder heads........your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted. Well the Cooper S cylinder head was not available till 63 or 64........ has bigger valves etc so cant be used is the way I read it.

So I am assuming my old 100E (59) Prefect fitted with Aquaplane gear (Alloy cyl.hd, lightened flywheel, O/S valves & springs, exhaust manifold etc from the UK) would be eligible. And fitted with Jolly wheels. Certainly gave Dad's std 64 Anglia a fright!!!

Frosty, as long as the wheels comply the answer is yes. That is exactly what I want to see.
Not sure about what you mean with your first copied paragraph though!

[Kiwiboss]

My turn!
In regard who has driven these? Me perhaps that's why I chose Oldfart. Going up the old highway 27 in a Standard 8 in 1966 was a blast, at least for me, I'm not sure about the gf at the time nor my best mate in the back seat, right foot nailed to the floor on the way to a meeting at Puke from Matamata. Fast? No flat out, yes. Fun, in sodding great big lumps.
Take a current car through the same antics, fast? yes, flat out? no way, fun? no, boring as Coro St
Gerald, who said you can't modify? Not me! Just period mods. (don't want silhouette cars) as an example I now have an Alexander tuning document on file, and what could be done is far from restrictive.
Likewise Woodhead Munroe advert for various telescopic shock conversions. (Even Morrie 8!)
Personally I would far rather watch Mark Parsons skidding all round the circuit than someone "on rails" who barely gets out of shape. Fast not really, good to watch, you betcha!!!!
I know these cars won't be over fast, but does really fast make the spectator thing work? I suspect that armfuls of sideways, even if it is at a lower speed is way more interesting. The other bit you have missed is that a lot of people love to say, "Oh look that's just like Uncle Fred used to have, what a hoot!" I simply can not see the same with the current plastic body cars. Extreme comparison absolutely.
A few years back we were forced to do a car swap in Targa. The classic car was always chatting to the folks who came up. The much newer car meant that we were transparent.
Springs are free, even the UK guys reckon lever arms can be made to work with an alteration of oil, panhard rods, sway bars, all allowed, bigger drums, or discs on the "prove you are OK" basis. Wheels are on application, first query already approved.
If I am wrong after a few meetings I am big enough to say "I was wrong", hope you all will be too :)

Jac, sorry I can't see how your post is relevant to these at all.

BTW, good to see you back Gerald! I look forward to the banter. Where were you for Kairangi?

I keep seeing more to respond to!
Gerald, who said anything about the cylinder heads?
Who said anything about the supercharger having to be period?
You have written in stuff that is just not accurate or true. Please don't.
Have alook at UK historics, there is an "Auntie Rover" with a driver almost (but not quite) as good looking as someone close to Angus!

Great examples you've mentioned Rhys so keep at it and keep move forward, forums like this are great but are typical of when anyone can have an instant say so you get those that are opinionated and negative(NO, not mentioning you) but don't let it get you down, listen to everyone then take the positives and disregard the negatives is what i do, Pre 61 Saloons(like HMC) is a great concept but will take time and hard work and as seen overseas it can and will work, unfortunately its guys like you(and i)that step up with a passion for old car motorsport that takes the brunt for something that should have been done 20 plus years ago by MSNZ in a similar way to what CAMS Classic and Historic did in Australia, and although they know(and so do we) that they made mistakes at least they've had 30 years to build a historic racing fleet(same in GB i presume) were-as here we are starting now(or as in HMC 2 years ago)!!

I also hear what you say about spectical value Rhys, EG Skid Mark Parson's, Targa, etc and without a doubt the most spectacular group currently is the Central Muscle Cars, sure silhouette hotrods beyond anything Historic or Classic but the show they put on is beyond belief and the spectators including myself just luv it, infact I'd rather watch them than Supertourers or Aussie taxi's, and they started out 10 years ago with just 6 cars at Manfeild and one was a Nissan Skyline(i was there watching) so it can be done. Now Pre 61 Saloons including HMC may not have the same appeal but not all is lost, some spectators do luv seeing an ol A30 in period guise doing the biz but as in overseas historic racing its more about the cars and the owners hence the catch fraze "Cars are the Stars" this doesn't mean one can't race as hard as they can, its just while doing so please have respect for "thou fellow racer" is more what we're pushing. We are lucky that Hampton Downs came along and now has the Festival every January to help push the more pure "Historic and Classic" theme, prior to that it wasn't much so long may it continue and if anything like the likes of "Goodwood" and "Monterey" is something to go by the future looks good.

I also value Ray's, Gerald's, and other opinions because they have "been there done that" and by god your first posting Gerald is very good and has merits and concerns but hasn't everything? but its those that "grasp" and take up the Pre 61 Saloon concept that will make it work(or not) and this may not be you Gerald, same with HMC. From my own experience HMC has had huge interest but understand(or lack of it) i find interesting, after all we are a "Saloon" class which means a Corvette and Cobra although Muscle Cars in road form are actually considered "sports cars" in racing form, its only been that way since the 60's, still i value Mr Jacmac's opinion as i do others from the mainland but it does seem to be a bit of a mess down there?. Also i've found that getting those that have shown interest in HMC off the TV couch and to the race track is another thing and several in our group are over 2 years into car builds due to $$$ or the lack of it and then i have those with turn key ready to go cars that don't even come racing, but certainly the biggest factor has been the "economy"(or lack of it i guess) as many have said they wish, and will at some stage join HMC and its not even the money, its the "time at the coal face" especially if self employed or a large business and as one pointed out, we're all working twice as hard for half as much these days, can certainly can understand that!!

Anyway, as in other class's Rhys there will be those that grasp the concept and those that won't, they can wander off into motorsport no-mans-land and spend their money as they see fit!! you will have moments were you wondered why you even bothered and unfortunately i have to tell you it all won't happen overnight thats for sure, it'll be YEARS but good luck mate, we're here to support you.

Dale M

[Frosty5]

Frosty, as long as the wheels comply the answer is yes. That is exactly what I want to see.
Not sure about what you mean with your first copied paragraph though!

So parts available (manufactured) post-61 for cars pre-61 could not be used. Is that how I understand it?

[Oldfart]

So parts available (manufactured) post-61 for cars pre-61 could not be used. Is that how I understand it?

Frosty (and others), the modifications have to be "what could have been, and was, done in the period the car represents". This is, in part, why there is a wheel width restriction. Research has told us that Jolly wheels as you mentioned don't seem to appear till the mid 60s. (Not sure of a specific date). Likewise Minilites have a similar date. In the case you mention the 100e would very likely have got those wider wheels about the mid 60s, as did my old Hillman Husky (67 for the Husky), up until then most of us floundered around on either skinny wheels, or those from a different variety of the same chassis. The Husky with it's old 3 studs had no options that I could find. If, for example, a 100e estate had wider wheels, that's what people could/would have used.
The Standard 10 I am building up has Herald wheels, 4 1/2", the A30 which Ryan has is using HC Viva 4 1/2", John Ure has an exemption for the Mk 7 Jag to run 5 1/2" as he has provided documentation to show that's what his car had available ex factory.
Your Aquaplane head could be brand new, they are available, however that's a mod "you could have done in the period", likewise you could put an Elva head on. A 1200 OHV engine you can't do because that did not come out till after 31 Dec 1960.
Peugeot 203 and 403 were both supercharged in the period, I have many magazines showing that. We do not expect someone to find the absolute correct supercharger (very like rocking horse crap) but it would need to be installed in a similar manner. Off the topic, there are a number of supercharged MGs running Lancia Volumex which have recast ends with the octagon cast in, to look more genuine, we do not require that level of effort to look correct.
As always, the onus of proving a case is with the owner. And just in case...having a letter from "Uncle Fred" does not cut the mustard, it must be published material with date evidence.
Hope this ramble clarifies for you.

The cylinder head Gerald refers to, would this fit on an 850 block? It is the BLOCK that is the critical bit for VCC dating.

[Oldfart]

As an offering to see if I can clarify more, below a "sample" car and what can and cannot be done.
1957 Standard 10
Engine 948 Herald Coupe motor, Yes.
13/60 or Spitfire 1300 motor No (too new)
Extractors yes
Side draft Weber , prove it was done IN THE PRE 61
Lowered Yes
Swaybar fitted YES diameter free
Externally adjustable shocks No
Adjustable spring platforms No
Rear lever shocks swapped to TR4/MGB type yes (same as other from pre 61)
Tele conversion for the rear, at this time no, the owner has to prove that this was available IN THE PRE 61 PERIOD
Tramp rods, panhard, Watts link all yes
Lexan windows No
Perspex using the original closing method yes, bolt in no.
Alloy removable panels yes (The works Rally cars had these for some Euro rallies, documents to show it)
Toyota 5 speed g'box no
Changed ratios in the period case yes.
Hood lining, carpets, rear seat removed No
Ratty hood lining replaced with "Front runner" boat lining yes.
Drivers seat replaced with bright blue wing seat no
Subtle black seat yes
Bench seat (Standard never had one but for the sake of discussion) replaced with 2 buckets of subtle colour, yes.
Internal engine mods, yes of course, just remember that block thing.

For 2014 Roycroft we welcome pretty much anything as we have done on a ONE EVENT basis. eg for 2013 John Ure ran his Jag with the Minilites and semi slicks. It was allowed for that event only, and if he wished to run with us again he was to change the wheels and tyres to comply, this he has already done for 2014. For ERC series he will revert to the others.

[ERC]

Standard 10 is a great example. (Didn't Stirling Moss run one, modified by Alf Francis?)
Good explanations Rhys other than queres that cropped up years ago with our own cars.
Rear seats, carpets, head linings and cages.

I presume cages are acceptable, or at least some form of roll protection?
If so, then rear seats can be a problem, as carving holes into old, genuine, almost unobtainable upholstery, wrecks it. Carpets, to a similar degree.
Secondly, fitting a headlining can be a major problem around a cage.

Thirdly, I am sure that most drivers will be aware of the toxic nature of burning foam. Not only is it toxic, but it is almost impossible to extinguish, so if a replacement rear seat is installed, around the cage, but made from foam, I would consider it aesthetically OK, but would not be happy from a fire/safety point of view.

Having already been down that route ourselves, we opted to allow the removal of the rear seat on the grounds that from the spectator stands, you can't tell anyway. Upholstery is also often in a poor state (particularly if drivers are going out to purchase a car to race) and can be very expensive to restore. It is important that cars look tidy but a concours car is generally not going to be risked on a race track, where innocent accidents can and will happen and the availability of pre 1960 panels is not getting any easier.

Loose carpets can also be a problem in a race situation.

Lexan no, but Perspex yes? Are you aware of the LVVTA rules for road cars? I have just had my car rejected by LVVTA because I used an acrylic/plastic for the rear door windows. That is OK for MSNZ but is not approved by LVVTA, so I have had to dump the acrylic and have been forced into using Lexan, as it is approved by both.

No doubt this isn't the first time these points have been raised!

[Oldfart]

Ray, I did not know about the lexan/perspex issue, that will be revisited.
In regard the upholstery, I have argued this one with VCC, they require interior, end of story. There is no mention of the state of it. Obviously if a cage is in place there needs to be common sense applied, hopefully we are mature enough to apply that, even if common sense is not overly common :) If someone were finding a "barn find" car then I guess that messing with upholstery is not too much of an issue. Case by case is always an option.
Yes loose carpet is a safety issue, and any reasonable scrutineer will be empowered to make a "good decision"
In the day, (I am sick of that phrase) many cars being competed with had "20 foot paint jobs", that will be OK with me, 10 foot would be better, no need for concours.

[John McKechnie]

Some fine Standard 10s and one Standard 8 on trademe at the moment. None are rusty , complete runners between $2-4 K. Even one doctor owner. !956 , so will bolt in for age.

[Spgeti]

Also on TM Austin A90...$1800

[Oldfart]

OK guys, get the cheque books out!

[ERC]

I need to get the 10 year project on the road before I can be further distracted... Then the Marcos is still suffering from superficial body damage from a 10 year old race accident that will need a body off fix to put back to acceptable.

[Oldfart]

I reckon John McKechnie in a Humpy Holden on 4 1/2" wheels would be very cool. grey motor etc!

[John McKechnie]

Rhys- I used to run that very same set up at Waikaraka Park in 1972.Twin strombergs.

[kiwi285]

How about a 1956 EIP Vauxhall - could be a good car

http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=647332375

[ERC]

Further to my earlier comment about perspex windows. LVVTA rejected a material that is OK for MSNZ and the replacement for just two rear door windows has cost me a staggering $342!!! (Lexan)

[Russ Cunningham]

Rhys! great formula but would my 61 Wartburg be eligible? It's a real goer! Especially on 100 proof vodka with my Russian girlfriend behind the wheel. Hey! even if Natalia is in the back seat it's still a real goer!
Regards,
Dave Mckinney.

[Oldfart]

Rhys! great formula but would my 61 Wartburg be eligible? It's a real goer! Especially on 100 proof vodka with my Russian girlfriend behind the wheel. Hey! even if Natalia is in the back seat it's still a real goer!
Regards,
Dave Mckinney.

Show me your Wartburg, I know that our marque specialist of these will be comfortable with the minor differences from the 59 to the 61. Why the Wartburg, your private correspondence was indicating that you wanted to use either your Zil or the Zaz. Change of thinking is good though as we do need to see variety, and would prefer that the grid was not over run by Zazs.

[Oldfart]

Humber 80 on trade me which would be a good option Whoops, Hillman Minx 654261848 is the listing

[Oldfart]

Well we have just got another Jag enthusiast who plans to be at Roycroft! Thanks to John McKechnie for pointing the group out to him.

[Oldfart]

And another, DKW.
A good potential car on Trade Me right now, MG ZA Magnette

[Oldfart]

If more people are interested, I am being offered potential cars almost every week, so all you need do is ask, I may be able to provide contacts for "raw material".
We DO have a grid for Roycroft, come along and join the fun.

pre61saloonregister@gmail.com

[AMCO72]

Thats good news Oldfart. Could you perhaps give us a sneak preview of the machinery that we can expect to see on the track?
Saw a pic of an A35 somewhere that was being prepared for the event. When you think about it this would be a good car to do the series with.

Stu Hooper ran one of these in the early days of Classic racing at Taupo, but managed to up-end it at one meeting!! They do look rather narrow and high, but Stu didn't hang-around when driving it.

[Oldfart]

So far;
A30/35 Speedwell
1939 V8 coupe
Humber 80
Mk2 Zephyr
Standard 10
Mini
2 Jags

Potential
Citroen light 15
DKW
Vanguard
Singer Gazelle

On offer
Mk1 Consul
Mk2 Consul
Wolesley 1500

[Grant Sprague]

Hi Guys......... just had a quick read.... hey remember Jimmy Crystal.... he got his little Wolesley to go pretty good even in the early pre 65.. days ......... jags cost a million $$$ to make go stop & turn ... then depends if you want to get serious or have fun , BUT you know what happens when you get the bit between the teeth .... have fun Grant

[Oldfart]

Hi Guys......... just had a quick read.... hey remember Jimmy Crystal.... he got his little Wolesley to go pretty good even in the early pre 65.. days ......... jags cost a million $$$ to make go stop & turn ... then depends if you want to get serious or have fun , BUT you know what happens when you get the bit between the teeth .... have fun Grant

Yes, and remember there would be a myriad of reasons why Jimmy's car would not be accepted. Grant, these are NOT another variety of pre 65, so the Jags you mention just have to cope with the period parts, if they don't, they don't get invited back, EVER!

[ERC]

On offer? Does that mean for sale? Can you please send me details of the Wolseley Oldfart? I could be interested.

Jim's Wolseley 1500 ran a 1950cc MGB engine with an alloy crossflow head.

I'd really like a Riley 1.5 though, as I seem to remember in period, Alan Hutcheson winning what was the British Touring Car Championship in I think, 1961 (or at least a class win). I have always been a fan of anything Riley but only owned three. A running 1955 RME needing restoration that I had to pass on, as I had neither the skills, the facilities nor the time - and two Riley Elfs!

[Grant Sprague]

On offer? Does that mean for sale? Can you please send me details of the Wolseley Oldfart? I could be interested.

Jim's Wolseley 1500 ran a 1950cc MGB engine with an alloy crossflow head.

I'd really like a Riley 1.5 though, as I seem to remember in period, Alan Hutcheson winning what was the British Touring Car Championship in I think, 1961 (or at least a class win). I have always been a fan of anything Riley but only owned three. A running 1955 RME needing restoration that I had to pass on, as I had neither the skills, the facilities nor the time - and two Riley Elfs! Yep I get yr point ERC .............sounds like it could be fun for you guys , limit the costs ..... ok have a good one mate .. Grant..............

[Oldfart]

As per your request Ray, PM sent.
Yes, I am being offered cars for sale which fit nicely, and then I am being a little selective as to whether they do fit.

[Oldfart]

Now that the Festival is (almost) out of the way, can I remind folks that the Roycroft is coming closer, and there are actually enthusiasts getting in to the saloons. Of course we would love to add more to the mix, and there have been a few sales of appropriate vehicles on Trade Me recently, perhaps some of them are ones intending to come and play??

I have a Singer Gazelle which would fit well, probably a bit late to get it ready this year, but it has been saved for anyone who might want to join in.

email pre61saloonregister@gmail.com

[GeebeeNZ]

Oldfart I spoke to a number of keen people today at the Ferrari Festival who are keeping an eye out for cars but we need to remind those interested that they need to allow time to get a VCC VIC and log book prior to the event.

[John McKechnie]

Oldfart I spoke to a number of keen people today at the Ferrari Festival who are keeping an eye out for cars but we need to remind those interested that they need to allow time to get a VCC VIC and log book prior to the event.

Good catching up with you today, sorry we didnt have longer.

[Oldfart]

Yes, VCC head office would prefer to have paperwork in hand at the office prior to 14th Feb, but will do all they can if people are a little later. Great to have such good support from the hierarchy.

[AMCO72]

Oldfart......how are entries going for this weekend in the pre60 class?

Hoping for some fine weather, interesting racing, and meeting some roaring season members. Well worth a watch you guys.

I hear, from a usual reliable source, that the Roycroft Bugatti has been refitted with the Jaguar engine that it did so much of its racing with.......can you imagine driving that thing to the south island to compete, cos this is what Ron used to do. An intrepid motorist if ever there was one. And we moan about towing a trailer down there!!!!!!!!

[Oldfart]

Bit disappointing in that we only have 6 cars at this point for the saloons. Interesting as that is the same number of BMW E30s for their very first race meeting, perhaps there is potential after all. Some of us are burning candles at both ends to meet the day.
Yes the Roycroft Bugatti has gone "how it was so it shall be" and is driven to the circuits as it was :)

[rogered]

Oldfart......how are entries going for this weekend in the pre60 class?

Hoping for some fine weather, interesting racing, and meeting some roaring season members. Well worth a watch you guys.

I hear, from a usual reliable source, that the Roycroft Bugatti has been refitted with the Jaguar engine that it did so much of its racing with.......can you imagine driving that thing to the south island to compete, cos this is what Ron used to do. An intrepid motorist if ever there was one. And we moan about towing a trailer down there!!!!!!!!https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos

Funny enough, i believe it was parked at highlands today, after a road trip down south.
check bugatti nz on the web

[Oldfart]

Have a look at this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94IGD7KPM-0

[Oldfart]

Time to re-vitalise this.
For those wondering, yes the class is going ahead. We are slowly getting more cars and owners who want to play. Small beginnings but who knows where it will go. There may be a few at Pebblebrook hillclimb, HD have offered to host more races at some of their classic meetings (really need at least 8 on the grid) and the next HRSCC/VCC meeting at Taupo in December is an opportunity.
Next "new" car for preparation just arrived here, a Peugeot 203.