CHEATING.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Talking to someone this week about this,who said it goes on in all classes out there.

[928]

no sutch thing as cheating, there is only getting caught. a nascar expression i think. and one I follow

[GD66]

Well, Nascar would know. It was said years ago that there's enough rejected stuff left over after Nascar tech inspection to build another car. The main thing is, if you cheat and get caught, you've gotta go hands-up and no complaining.
While ever there's racing, there will always be cheating...

[CUSTAXIE50]

no sutch thing as cheating, there is only getting caught. a nascar expression i think. and one I follow So you cheat.

[Jaydee]

Funniest story I heard about that "rogue of the rules", Tom Walkinshaw. One of the team drivers brought his Group C Jaguar XJR into the pits at the end of pre race qualifying at Le mans in 1987. Rival teams had been monitoring how many laps the car seemed to be able to do on a (rules controlled) tank of fuel. Before the qualifying session, Tom had told his drivers that when they finished their sessions, that they must press THE button that had appeared, unlabelled, behind the race seat. He didn't tell them what THE button was for.

Tom: "Did you press THE button?"
Driver, getting out of the car: "You mean 'THE' button that you told me about?"
Tom: "Yes, I do mean THAT f****** button, did you press it or not?"
Driver (knowing exactly what Tom meant, and having no idea what THE button did, but winding Tom up anyway: "Yes, Tom, I did press the button, twice to make sure."
Tom: "Twice? Why bloody twice? I said once." Tom presses his head into the car and fiddles about behind the race seat.

What we were told (but we were all slightly worse for wear at the time) was that Tom had fitted a small electric pump and ram that squashed into the bag tank and reduced its apparent volume in case there was a formal objection to the scrutineers about the possible size of the tanks.

All rumour of course....

[Ellis]

A quote attributed to Parnelli......
All those behind me are very fast.....all those in front of me are cheating

[Jac Mac]

Talking to someone this week about this,who said it goes on in all classes out there.
Define what you consider cheating, one mans creative engineering or such like can be anothers rule breaker.
I remember when I got involved in building HQ's I sent off a long fax list of questions to the organisations of stuff I was considering, reply came back, No,No,No, fair enough, then ended up @ Manfield for final & stood in the scruitineer shed & watched teardown of top three cars, all three had most of the mods / changes I had sought approval for & passed with flying colours, when I asked the gent who had knocked me back what was going on he looked somewhat uneasy!!!
Similar stuff has dogged the 'old' NZV8's ( 302 Ford & 305 Holdens ), have you read the rules in engine specs, no limit on amount off top of block, no dimension for compression height, no limit to amount machined off intake manifold, & yet get 5 thou oversize on a valve or seat & your out...

[CUSTAXIE50]

Define what you consider cheating, one mans creative engineering or such like can be anothers rule breaker.
I remember when I got involved in building HQ's I sent off a long fax list of questions to the organisations of stuff I was considering, reply came back, No,No,No, fair enough, then ended up @ Manfield for final & stood in the scruitineer shed & watched teardown of top three cars, all three had most of the mods / changes I had sought approval for & passed with flying colours, when I asked the gent who had knocked me back what was going on he looked somewhat uneasy!!!
Similar stuff has dogged the 'old' NZV8's ( 302 Ford & 305 Holdens ), have you read the rules in engine specs, no limit on amount off top of block, no dimension for compression height, no limit to amount machined off intake manifold, & yet get 5 thou oversize on a valve or seat & your out... Do you recall the names on the side of the three cars you are talking about.

[John McKechnie]

Biggest problem in the past was who took responsibility- scrutineer before racing, race organizer afterward.
If rules are there, someone must examine and enforce. No friends wanted for this job.
Cant complain on HMC rules- no title at stake , not worthwhile cheating.

[Jac Mac]

Do you recall the names on the side of the three cars you are talking about.
On two of them, yes, but it wouldnt be fair to name two & not the other ( the car I had been involved with was 4th ), my point was that the 'rules' were not being administered in a fair & equal fashion. You still have not defined cheating for me:). One of the reasons given for why I ended up as a tech officer for HQ's in the SI for a while was a couple of 'good old boys' felt I was a bit too creative!, funny thing was I was thinking of them in the same way only worser!!:)
With regard to Johns post, OSCA in its early non-spaceframed formatt had very few if any problems with regard to rules compliance, any who got too far away from the envelope seemed to get brought into line without any great drama, yet there were trophys & series points up for grabs.
If HMC has no title & therefore no need to win, why are so many owners building better motors , modifying suspension etc to try & be more competitive?

[928]

i have never been caught. nuff said

[928]

i have never been caught. nuff said
sorry reply to post#4

[John McKechnie]

On two of them, yes, but it wouldnt be fair to name two & not the other ( the car I had been involved with was 4th ), my point was that the 'rules' were not being administered in a fair & equal fashion. You still have not defined cheating for me:). One of the reasons given for why I ended up as a tech officer for HQ's in the SI for a while was a couple of 'good old boys' felt I was a bit too creative!, funny thing was I was thinking of them in the same way only worser!!:)
With regard to Johns post, OSCA in its early non-spaceframed formatt had very few if any problems with regard to rules compliance, any who got too far away from the envelope seemed to get brought into line without any great drama, yet there were trophys & series points up for grabs.
If HMC has no title & therefore no need to win, why are so many owners building better motors , modifying suspension etc to try & be more competitive?

Jack- Because its fun, and we probably couldnt afford to do this when we were younger.

[Rod Grimwood]

Talking to someone this week about this,who said it goes on in all classes out there.

No such thing as cheating;
Can be covered in many ways;

Known as interpretation

Known as 'bending the rules'

known as 'he who bends the most, goes the fastest'

Known as 'I bought it like that'

Known as 'I didn't know that was there'

Known as 'when did that rule change'

This is tongue in cheek

[Ross Hollings]

Interesting topic,i always remember the top place getters in the 1967 Wills 6 Hour being stripped down after the event,everyone had a fully port and polished head,the excuse was ,rules said you could balance engine parts and all they did was balance the combustion and exhaust chambers.If they had chucked them out there would have had to have gone down to 4th 5th and 6th place !!!!!

[CUSTAXIE50]

Interesting topic,i always remember the top place getters in the 1967 Wills 6 Hour being stripped down after the event,everyone had a fully port and polished head,the excuse was ,rules said you could balance engine parts and all they did was balance the combustion and exhaust chambers.If they had chucked them out there would have had to have gone down to 4th 5th and 6th place !!!!! Formula ford.

[Oldfart]

Formula ford.

Pretty much all somewhat other than the rules required back in the day. Back to front pistons, some "slightly" oversize engines....

[CUSTAXIE50]

Pretty much all somewhat other than the rules required back in the day. Back to front pistons, some "slightly" oversize engines.... Yes i know of a gent who raced a xu1 and he said he did that with the pistons also.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Cheating is such a vulgar word.....the thing is, someone or ones have to interpate the rules, and sometimes the official black or white colour is simply the wrong shade....lol :-)

[CUSTAXIE50]

Cheating is such a vulgar word.....the thing is, someone or ones have to interpate the rules, and sometimes the official black or white colour is simply the wrong shade....lol :-) Is brown the colour.

[Ellis]

Yes i know of a gent who raced a xu1 and he said he did that with the pistons also.


Back to front pistons....May not have been illegal
It happenned in GTHO Ph3 engines in 71

Section from Ford memo on the QC engines dated 8/4/71 (This is prior to the HO3 being released in May)....

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/falcongtho/Snapshot2013-09-0512-53-24_zpsb746e6f5.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/falcongtho/media/Snapshot2013-09-0512-53-24_zpsb746e6f5.jpg.html)

[GD66]

No, adrenaline is brown...

[Oldfart]

No, adrenaline is brown...

So are some of the sleeves on TRS :)

[Jac Mac]

So are some of the sleeves on TRS :)
Wise man rolls up sleeves before stirring ****:)

[Oldfart]

Wise man rolls up sleeves before stirring ****:)

Brown arm not clothes!

[Rod Grimwood]

Come on, everyone is deadly serious on here.

Some thought I bent the rules once, but it was just interpretation, (there's not mine of course). I still have those 'springs' hanging on the wall.

[Russ Cunningham]

no sutch thing as cheating, there is only getting caught. a nascar expression i think. and one I follow

No idea who you are as you hide behind a nom de plume. However, you are a very unimpressive fellow to say the least. How can there ever be a level playing field when cheats exist??????

[928]

No idea who you are as you hide behind a nom de plume. However, you are a very unimpressive fellow to say the least. How can there ever be a level playing field when cheats exist??????
problem is that cars that I have built and prepared won enough races to satisfy me. you have won?

[Oldfart]

No idea who you are as you hide behind a nom de plume. However, you are a very unimpressive fellow to say the least. How can there ever be a level playing field when cheats exist??????

Lighten up Russ, nobody is taking this thread very seriously!:confused:

[CUSTAXIE50]

Lighten up Russ, nobody is taking this thread very seriously!:confused: Im with Russ on this one oldfart.

[Jac Mac]

So would putting the chassis of a car inside the body instead of underneath, or fitting a 1500cc Cortina 5 bearing crank into a 109e 3 bearing block be considered cheating or just getting creative?:) Funny how the guys with non de plumes cant take anything seriously, now whats a Buckler?

[Oldfart]

So would putting the chassis of a car inside the body instead of underneath, or fitting a 1500cc Cortina 5 bearing crank into a 109e 3 bearing block be considered cheating or just getting creative?:) Funny how the guys with non de plumes cant take anything seriously, now whats a Buckler?
Jac Mac, yes you have been that forever, I am just an Old Fart but nom de plume or just being honest?
I presume that a good South of the Mainland like you is tongue in cheek about Bucklers as there were several from the town on your neck of the woods, and not too long before your time. Kelvin Brown did exactly that crank into block thing you mention(in his Tahuna Beach Ford 8), only rule was capacity class. Is that "cheating"? Is it possible to "cheat" with an allcomer? :)

[neale]

A couple of great quotes.

One by Douglas Bader (WW2 Fighter Pilot)
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men & the obedience of fools"

Unknown
"May the best cheat win"

Another funny little story I heard of Harry Firth (the king of bending rules to breaking point) from the 70's after he left Ford & went to HDT. He put in a complaint about illegal parts being used on the falcons. When he was questioned about how he would know about those parts. He replied I put them on!"

Also in the days of the Cortina GT, to qualify the cars to be production cars all parts had to be listed in the factory parts catalogue & available in the local dealer. So Harry would re write the Ford parts catalogue & make a few available to certain people.
A couple of days before the race a crate would arrive at the local ford dealers that no one but Harry was allowed to open. If the scrutineers questioned the parts used on his car, he would pull out his special parts catalogue & then take them down to the dealer & crack open the crate showing that the parts were available at the Ford dealer. Not cheating but cutting it very close.

[bry3500]

Is brown the colour.

I reckon the colour is grey, that's the shade where innovation and cleverness lurk ;)

[John McKechnie]

OK, at the Glenvale 200 in 1973 Jim Richards rolled up in the Norris Miles GTHO (A C Gill menswear) and was lapping 4 seconds faster than Leo Leonards Charger- he was lapping in 64 secs. He was allowed to run in production race. Was that cheating, or is it the fault of the scrutineers and organisers for accepting it? it was described as ... looking more like a Bank of Wales car than standard production .Also was s comment- cars were no more standard than OSCA cars.

[Ellis]

OK, at the Glenvale 200 in 1973 Jim Richards rolled up in the Norris Miles GTHO (A C Gill menswear) and was lapping 4 seconds faster than Leo Leonards Charger- he was lapping in 64 secs. He was allowed to run in production race. Was that cheating, or is it the fault of the scrutineers and organisers for accepting it? it was described as ... looking more like a Bank of Wales car than standard production .Also was s comment- cars were no more standard than OSCA cars.

John

How did his times compare to his McMillan Ford GTHO from 71/72

[John McKechnie]

Ellis- I dont know, but I do know that Allan Moffat told the world that Leo Leonard had the fastest Charger in the world after it dusted his GTHO at Wigram.
.There was a time in the race when Leo was putting up faster times than Richards, but then he pulled out
.In 72 it apparently was really wet. Jim Richards was driving Escort 1300 GT came 13th
My point is only- when there are no rule or clearly defined rules ,there is no cheating.
That is why standard production and production racing then was so hard to police-look at those running racing tyres in these races- Francivic did at Wigram in his GTHO- the organizers allowed him

[CUSTAXIE50]

So would putting the chassis of a car inside the body instead of underneath, or fitting a 1500cc Cortina 5 bearing crank into a 109e 3 bearing block be considered cheating or just getting creative?:) Funny how the guys with non de plumes cant take anything seriously, now whats a Buckler? Robbie did all of that,so it must have been all right at that time.

[Allan]

I remember hearing the comment made at a B & H race "if you win it drive it into the rubbish tip at the end of the back straight on your warm down lap".

[Jac Mac]

You can hardly blame anyone for getting creative in car racing in NZ, virtually all 'Factory Or Factory assisted ' saloons have mods that many consider outside the envelope, a few examples, The fahey escort & capri, torsion bar rear suspension & coil over rear suspension, but with the original leaf spring still there,only in plastic/nylon leaf material, Mustangs with relocated wishbones, front suspension towers, rear axles & wheel arches shifted, dual firewalls on factory rally cars. You can hardly blame the locals when examples like that were being brought into the country. Those examples were only the tip of the iceberg. Got to hand it to you Custaxi 50, so if Robbie did it it must be all right?:)

[Oldfart]

If the rules allow it, or don't exclude things, then it can hardly be cheating can it?
Aiming at nobody in particular, if the rules specifically say a given cubic capacity (as does Formula Ford) and you then run a greater capacity, that is cheating. If it says minimum weight, and you run lighter.., control camshaft and you use something else...
If the class is "Allcomers" there weren't a lot of rules!
Using a shell which mysteriously went through a "workshop fire" so it could then be given a light sandblast and minimal paint, with the approval of the tech stewards, now where does that sit? I always thought it was strange that the car intended for "Production Racing" had absolutely nothing in it when it caught fire :) No interior, no wiring, no suspension at all....

[928]

A little story from the UK. touring car race at siverstone grand prix round and someone protested frank gardiner's SCA freight camaro.
Frank's response was memorial as he said to his mechanic take the f'ing homo books up in the wheelbarrow. So a barrow with six ,I think 3 inch thick manuals went up to the scrutineers. these were the FIA homologation manuals for Camaro's. Frank said they can rad them 'cause I have races to win. Was the car legal?

[Grant Sprague]

A couple of great quotes.

One by Douglas Bader (WW2 Fighter Pilot)
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men & the obedience of fools"

Unknown
"May the best cheat win"

Another funny little story I heard of Harry Firth (the king of bending rules to breaking point) from the 70's after he left Ford & went to HDT. He put in a complaint about illegal parts being used on the falcons. When he was questioned about how he would know about those parts. He replied I put them on!"

Also in the days of the Cortina GT, to qualify the cars to be production cars all parts had to be listed in the factory parts catalogue & available in the local dealer. So Harry would re write the Ford parts catalogue & make a few available to certain people.
A couple of days before the race a crate would arrive at the local ford dealers that no one but Harry was allowed to open. If the scrutineers questioned the parts used on his car, he would pull out his special parts catalogue & then take them down to the dealer & crack open the crate showing that the parts were available at the Ford dealer. Not cheating but cutting it very close. This reminds me of the british touring cars , when working in London the local BMW agent was down the road near chiswick , if you went to the parts Dept & bought [behind the sceens] a new cyl head across the counter and got a bonafide recceipt , it was deemed legal , imagine driving your balls off & a 110kg waker drives past you in a straight line , then after the race he gets on podium.. I remember doing escort sports ?????????? had to drive 101% if I had the chance again I would have stayed home , other classes were a bit cleaner , but same ole same old you start winning & people look at u side ways & that opens an other can of worms , some forget about the experience some take to race meetings lol

[Greg Mackie]

It was over 50 years ago when I first experienced 'rule-bending', in Appendix J.

At Warwick Farm,1963, I was in the same race [in my daily-driver VW Beetle] as George Reynolds,[VW Beetle]. In the first practice session I felt quite pleased to be staying with George, until we hit the main straight....he 'powered' away!

On speaking to Jack Bono [Jack built my engine], he said George probably had a "low top gear". As Appendix J rules didn't allow altered gear ratios, I decided to have a chat to George about this.

When I asked about the "low top", George grabbed a VW parts book and opened it at a pre-marked page. There it was in black & white....1:1 fourth gear, part # and all! When I wanted to write down the part #, George closed the book, and said "They only made one set".

Edit....George Reynolds sponsor was Volkswagen Australia.:rolleyes:

[Rod Grimwood]

Jac in relation to the rear end configuration of Fahey Escort, Car I have (for last 30 years) is the same and had a lot of people wondering for years 'how can you have a leaf spring with that set up, it will bind up etc.' The 'rules' said suspension could be modified but you had to maintain the original mounting points, it said nothing about what they had to be made of.

Was classic the look on couple of the faces the day we dropped them out and gave them to boys to look at, they just flopped around.
Made out of real light f/glass and I kept them painted a nice mat black, and ran in slipper/roller for bit extra movement.

Jac off topic a little but what was arse end in the Cortina as it was pretty good out of corners.

[Carlo]

A northern character once visited the south to run in the long distance series with his Commodore. The series in those days was restricted to cars complying with the South Island production race series regulations.
We were at Teretonga and he withdrew after testing because of gearbox failure, keen to see him compete we offered a loan of our spare one but he declined saying that his driveshaft would not fit it, not a problem, we offered our spare driveshaft and he countered with the info that our gearbox would not fit his clutch so we offered our spare unit and the counter was that this would not fit his flywheel so I went and had a wee look and had to report to our team that he was correct for none of our stuff would fit on the back of a NASCAR engine.

[Jizim]

Remember one B&H when Craig Pullmans XC Falcon (unluckily) was parked right next to Ray Williams XC Falcon aand Craigs was about 3 inches lower....ha. Graig came 4th I recall and when the "stips" wanted to check his engine he told them in the only way Craig knows.....to rack off and hopped and drove home. I will always remember when my mate and engine builder Rodney Downs co drove with the late Trevor McLean in a Commodore and Ian " Mother" Ivers whom used to be mine and Rodney's boss at Engine Rebuilders was the Technical Stewart at the time........asked Rodney to take the fuel pump off the front engine cover....so to enable them to "see" and check that they didnt "cheat" by putting a double row timing chain in as opposed to the single row (feking unreliable ) standard timing chain in.....Rodney just told Ian not much point because the had double row chain....consequently was disqualified from the results. Now this is one area that is feking stupid because it is only a reliability enhancement not a performance enhancement. Also putting air down the fuel filler so to expand the tank quantity was another.....BUT you had to remember to leave the spare wheel in there or you blew the shit out of the tank. And lastly...my old Group A Mustang...(ex Pinepac) and my old Group A Toyota . I modified the rods on the Toyota and put fully floating (wait for it) Vauxhall Wyvern gudgeon pins into the rods and put buttons on the ends to hold it all in bore....removed the piddly 5/16 Big End bolts and put SPS Air NZ Hi Strength 3/8 bolts in because I got pissed off breaking conrods....(these Toyota's ...when you change Pistons...you have to heat the rod with oxy/acct torch to enable the piston pins (gudgeons) to be pressed in.....and thats where they broke!..... The Mustang full non cheating engine was another joke....could only rev it to 6700 RPM because it too had 5/16 rod bolts and a cast iron crank that used to fail regularly by breaking at the front pulley/harmonic balancer. Fek it....out they went for a set of Carillos with 3/8th bolt ...a steel crank which I internally balanced with Mallory metal plus a couple of other tricks that I wont mention here because they are damn brilliant and almost undetectable to most.....(a bottle of Jack Daniels has been known to loosen my tongue...)....then I was able to rev to 7500 RPM and run 1/1000 of a sec quicker than Dick Johnson's Green Mustang at Puke. I personally think that these were necessary developments for reliabilty and very cost effective...(although we did get an advantage from it).. Cheating? Nah not really?
Regards to all. Tony Rutherford. (interesting topic all the same)

[Jac Mac]

Jac in relation to the rear end configuration of Fahey Escort, Car I have (for last 30 years) is the same and had a lot of people wondering for years 'how can you have a leaf spring with that set up, it will bind up etc.' The 'rules' said suspension could be modified but you had to maintain the original mounting points, it said nothing about what they had to be made of.

Was classic the look on couple of the faces the day we dropped them out and gave them to boys to look at, they just flopped around.
Made out of real light f/glass and I kept them painted a nice mat black, and ran in slipper/roller for bit extra movement.

Jac off topic a little but what was arse end in the Cortina as it was pretty good out of corners.

Which one, MKII had the 4 link & coil overs plus the 'lazy leaf' described above, Mk IV had 4link & Coil overs, was the better of the two out of corners, actually remember having an 'unofficial' test drive w/out the front shocks, tried to do a drop clutch start, swear it damn near did a wheelstand followed by a nasty smell from the clutch! That car needed more work in the front re anti dive etc.

[Grant Sprague]

LOL Bob was good on the single leaf , got the [that car] to handle not 2 bad ,,, BUT not quite good enough lol heheh , long story but a good one Re the leaf spring I had [ better get this right ] we sold a championship winning car to a local [no names does not matter] after a yr or two I decided to build an other , BUT still using the original format , full springs & no coil overs . rear]... , Some how new rules crept in [but bent ones] as they do , I was determined to keep things the way they should be , the rule changes that people interpreted to be legal were only to suit the people that actually could not drive as quick as some others .

Life is very interesting .... I LOVE simplicity , if it might be cheating , U pay the price sooner or later it comes out in the wash .........cause & effect is my favourite saying ........ natures laws cant escape that ...... an other example was at Ruapuna we took a car down to do a north south challenge only to get sealed up & dismantled back in the north island BECAUSE we were a little quicker , the guy that complained [a friend] spent so much $$$$ could not believe we were quicker [other competitor], I knew he was going towards pot hole changing down to 3rd & putting foot on brakes .. well this is the sort of shit some of us had to put up with , an other time was !!![well im going to ramble on here , Wonder why we cant be bothered any more ......... moral of this story ...... look straight ahead with out having to look over yr shoulder ........ regards to what others did or do they pay or will pay the price ......no escaping that .......

[jimdigris]

Cheating was the norm in European touring car racing in the 80s, everybody did it and they mostly turned a blind eye. Gricey was astounded how rampant it was when he went there in 86, but there was none better than Walkinshaw. If he couldnt get FIA to change the rules to his liking as with the Jaguar's V12 heads, then he just did it anyway. 2 of his Rovers were found to be 100mm wider than a road going car, which must have been one hell of an engineering feat, but they were allowed to run the entire ETTC season with no penalty. It was reported in Auto Action that during post race scrutineering after Monza that the Rovers heads were said to be completely different to that of the homologated heads seen on the Rovers at Wellington, yet FIA did nothing. I remember Brocky saying after Monza that there is something going on when a 3.5 litre pulls out from behind a 5 litre V8 and just blows it away down the straight

[928]

making the rovers wider was easy. just a big hammer and time it was only the wheel arches so that wider tyres could be fitted.
dear tom wonderfull man did a special head for the volvo there were only three one on each car and one for the scrutineers to compare against

[Russ Cunningham]

problem is that cars that I have built and prepared won enough races to satisfy me. you have won?

You seem to be proud of being dishonest. It's individuals such as yourself with no driving ability that cheat because it's the only way you can win. Ultimately in this short life, you 928 are a loser. Thank Christ none of my friends are in this category.

[928]

You seem to be proud of being dishonest. It's individuals such as yourself with no driving ability that cheat because it's the only way you can win. Ultimately in this short life, you 928 are a loser. Thank Christ none of my friends are in this category.
who said anything about driving.
just thought of another level playing field for you russ.
Jumper Jarier getting his nickname at monaco gp. Drove up though the grid just before the race start to be at the line when the flag dropped. when asked why he replied " the race starts at the line and i got there at flag drop, besides who is going to penalise a fenchman in france".

[Greg Mackie]

You seem to be proud of being dishonest. It's individuals such as yourself with no driving ability that cheat because it's the only way you can win. Ultimately in this short life, you 928 are a loser. Thank Christ none of my friends are in this category.
I'm with you, Russ.

[928]

I'm with you, Russ.
Just where did I state that I had cheated.

[John McKechnie]

Herald today---A Kiwi boatbuilder who has been thrown out of the America's Cup regatta for cheating insists that he did not put lead in the boat..
Suitable addition to this thread to read and think about when such a nasty smear word as cheating is used.
A reputation is all you have in this life.

[928]

Herald today---A Kiwi boatbuilder who has been thrown out of the America's Cup regatta for cheating insists that he did not put lead in the boat..
Suitable addition to this thread to read and think about when such a nasty smear word as cheating is used.
A reputation is all you have in this life.
Well said John

[Oldfart]

Herald today---A Kiwi boatbuilder who has been thrown out of the America's Cup regatta for cheating insists that he did not put lead in the boat..
Suitable addition to this thread to read and think about when such a nasty smear word as cheating is used.
A reputation is all you have in this life.

Scapegoat?

[Greg Mackie]

Just where did I state that I had cheated.
Who said you did?....not me.

I don't even know who you are.

[928]

Who said you did?....not me.

I don't even know who you are.
well side stepped greg

[Greg Mackie]

No side-stepping, 928.

My reasons for agreeing with Russ Cunningham [who doesn't mind using his name] were not aimed at you personally....just cheats in general.

If the only way a driver can win is by cheating, it must surely be a hollow victory?

[Steve Emson]

Funny you should mention this. Only a couple of days ago I was reading in one of my books that after he left HDT he became the technical scrutineer for CAMS. His first job was to inspect the HDT cars and order some parts taken off of them. HDT responded with. "But Harry you put them there!"
A couple of great quotes.

One by Douglas Bader (WW2 Fighter Pilot)
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men & the obedience of fools"

Unknown
"May the best cheat win"

Another funny little story I heard of Harry Firth (the king of bending rules to breaking point) from the 70's after he left Ford & went to HDT. He put in a complaint about illegal parts being used on the falcons. When he was questioned about how he would know about those parts. He replied I put them on!"

Also in the days of the Cortina GT, to qualify the cars to be production cars all parts had to be listed in the factory parts catalogue & available in the local dealer. So Harry would re write the Ford parts catalogue & make a few available to certain people.
A couple of days before the race a crate would arrive at the local ford dealers that no one but Harry was allowed to open. If the scrutineers questioned the parts used on his car, he would pull out his special parts catalogue & then take them down to the dealer & crack open the crate showing that the parts were available at the Ford dealer. Not cheating but cutting it very close.

[928]

yes Steve, well known fact:- to catch a cheater use an ex cheater

[928]

No side-stepping, 928.

My reasons for agreeing with Russ Cunningham [who doesn't mind using his name] were not aimed at you personally....just cheats in general.

If the only way a driver can win is by cheating, it must surely be a hollow victory?
yes but still a win. who remembers who was second.
another little story for russ
my car was wheeled onto the weighbridge after a race win and the scrutineer stepped back and said "your car is underweight".
I replied "what is that for"
he said "F5000"
"how about for an F1 car" says I
He apologised for not recognising what class of car he was working with and to be fair that circuit did not get many F1 cars.

[Steve Emson]

I cannot really understand why you would want to win races or a championship by cheating. How could you tell your kids and family about what you achieved, if you did not really do it correctly. I believe amateur motor racing is about driving. The most satisfying races to win are when you drove well, and out thought or out maneuvered the other competitors. You know, the races when the guys you beat acknowledge you did it fair and square, and they actually enjoyed the duel.

Now there are several different types of people found in motor sport. There are the drivers, who don't care about the mechanical side of racing, they just concentrate on winning by driving the car as fast as it possibly can go, and then there are the technical clever guys who just love trying to build a car better, smarter or pushing the boundaries of the class they are in.They get their kick and satisfaction in car preparation more so than driving.

Then there are the f$%&#*# bastards that deliberately cheat and break the rules. I am not meaning the clever people who interpret the rules for their advantage, but the losers I have no time for. Looking you kids in the eye and telling them how you won this or whatever, give me a break.

Racing is full of delusional people who think you need to cheat to win. They also think if they get beaten the other guy MUST be cheating, because they are better than Aryton Senna.

The sport attracts people with a few spare bob to spend. Truly quick drivers sometimes do not have the funds or opportunity to shine and stay in the sport. You know I have always thought, that somewhere in this world is a very young guy or girl, with all the physical attributes to be the fastest of the fastest. Some one that could be the greatest driver the world has ever seen. They will never get the chance.

I too get the feeling there are people who think they have achieved something great, by not getting caught cheating. They have in my opinion achieved absolutely nothing!

Having been around racing since I was born, I have heard many stories about this subject (cheating). Some people you have to admire their intellect in being able to think up some of the stuff they did. Was it more cunning that intellect?, possibly. I can tell you I do not hold some of the drivers and car owners that I know won by cheating in much regard at all. In fact some of them are low forms of life. If you are faster than all other drivers in the SAME car, or are very quick in the rain, then............you get my respect.

On a brighter note, we do have some very talented drivers and engineers who deserve all accolades. Most races and championships have been won by great people!!

[jimdigris]

someone mentioned the expanding bag in the fuel tank trick, Ol Harry Firth did something similar but it wasnt as high tech, it was a basketball, they inflated it just before scrutineering, in those days they just put a sticker on items like tanks to say it had been checked for capacity, after the race they just looked to see the tank was the same and the sticker was in place. As soon as the car left scrutineering they deflated the baskeball and removed it. Another trick ol Harry did was he read the rules for one category and saw that there was a limit on the max diameter of the fuel line from the tank to the engine bay but no restriction over the length, so he coiled the line to gain 1 gallon! the first I consider cheating, the second I consider clever, but not really cheating

[928]

the bladder in the fuel tank was used at lemans years ago (and may still be) as the french have a strictly enforced fuel tank capacity. the inflatable bladder is sealed after the tank volume is corrected.
chilling fuel to increase the volume was also used in F1 good for another gallon (4.55l for the metricated) in a 38gallon tank.

[Frosty5]

the bladder in the fuel tank was used at lemans years ago (and may still be) as the french have a strictly enforced fuel tank capacity. the inflatable bladder is sealed after the tank volume is corrected.
chilling fuel to increase the volume was also used in F1 good for another gallon (4.55l for the metricated) in a 38gallon tank.

Les Small tried chilling the fuel in the Roadways Commodore (Percy/Grice) at Pukekohe once. However the ambient temperature was greater than fuel was able to be consumed and as a result the tank split halfway down the back straight leaving 120+ litres on the track. The phrase "if you cant beat them by fairs means try foul" doesn't always work.

[CUSTAXIE50]

I see that they are looking at f5000 this year,making an effort to ensure all cars in the series from here and overseas comply with both the letter and spirit of the regulations,correct engines,aerodynamics,even correct period liveries.

[Oldfart]

I see that they are looking at f5000 this year,making an effort to ensure all cars in the series from here and overseas comply with both the letter and spirit of the regulations,correct engines,aerodynamics,even correct period liveries.

I understand that a few people running carbon body pieces and wings might be a bit upset, although the rumour is that internal engine titanium bits have a moratorium. As they were raced in period...Yeah right.

[George Sheweiry]

I cannot really understand why you would want to win races or a championship by cheating. How could you tell your kids and family about what you achieved, if you did not really do it correctly. I believe amateur motor racing is about driving. The most satisfying races to win are when you drove well, and out thought or out maneuvered the other competitors. You know, the races when the guys you beat acknowledge you did it fair and square, and they actually enjoyed the duel.

Now there are several different types of people found in motor sport. There are the drivers, who don't care about the mechanical side of racing, they just concentrate on winning by driving the car as fast as it possibly can go, and then there are the technical clever guys who just love trying to build a car better, smarter or pushing the boundaries of the class they are in.They get their kick and satisfaction in car preparation more so than driving.

Then there are the f$%&#*# bastards that deliberately cheat and break the rules. I am not meaning the clever people who interpret the rules for their advantage, but the losers I have no time for. Looking you kids in the eye and telling them how you won this or whatever, give me a break.

Racing is full of delusional people who think you need to cheat to win. They also think if they get beaten the other guy MUST be cheating, because they are better than Aryton Senna.

The sport attracts people with a few spare bob to spend. Truly quick drivers sometimes do not have the funds or opportunity to shine and stay in the sport. You know I have always thought, that somewhere in this world is a very young guy or girl, with all the physical attributes to be the fastest of the fastest. Some one that could be the greatest driver the world has ever seen. They will never get the chance.

I too get the feeling there are people who think they have achieved something great, by not getting caught cheating. They have in my opinion achieved absolutely nothing!

Having been around racing since I was born, I have heard many stories about this subject (cheating). Some people you have to admire their intellect in being able to think up some of the stuff they did. Was it more cunning that intellect?, possibly. I can tell you I do not hold some of the drivers and car owners that I know won by cheating in much regard at all. In fact some of them are low forms of life. If you are faster than all other drivers in the SAME car, or are very quick in the rain, then............you get my respect.

On a brighter note, we do have some very talented drivers and engineers who deserve all accolades. Most races and championships have been won by great people!!

Well Steve I couldn't have summed it up any better, you hit the nail on the head there mate. The only thing I could add to that is the satisfaction you get when someone decides that you just cant go that fast so you must be cheating so they fully check your car out and well hello it is perfectly legal!!

[Ellis]

In 1967 at Longford our Humble old Humpy engine was being spoken about unkindly.
The head was pulled at the end of the 2nd day and lo and behold we were running an
old spare flat top piston engine...not even our good hitop engine .....Longford was very
hard on engines and we didnt risk our good one.....makes your day when its proven
beyond doubt to the naysayers you are legal.

[Rod Grimwood]

I understand that a few people running carbon body pieces and wings might be a bit upset, although the rumour is that internal engine titanium bits have a moratorium. As they were raced in period...Yeah right.


Yep Titanium bits are not new, been around for awhile. When did they put a man on the moon, not yesterday.

Not all used them back then but they were available and used by some.
Besides if they help survival of engines so be it.

Carbon is different and only glass should be used as it was then.

[Steve Emson]

Well Steve I couldn't have summed it up any better, you hit the nail on the head there mate. The only thing I could add to that is the satisfaction you get when someone decides that you just cant go that fast so you must be cheating so they fully check your car out and well hello it is perfectly legal!!

Hi George, Yes I know what you mean.

The funnest example was with a Falcon XY GTHO in historic racing in Queensland. It was a big meeting and the guns were up from interstate for it. It rained for qualifying, and the first days racing. I was fortunate to win these races by a big margin. Afterwards all the officials arrived at my pit to inform me there was a protest by an interstate competitor against my car for using the hand cut slicks in the rain. My car was still sitting there after coming off the track. I said what, those tyres on there?? They said yes, you cannot use hand cut slicks, it is against the rules. I said have a good look at those tyres guys, they are just everyday radial tyres I bought from the local Bob Jane T mart!

[Grant Sprague]

Steve that's called the tall poppy syndrome , they got their bums kicked because you had yr s...t together & they were the first of the losers

[928]

Oh how true. first losers have not heard that for a while

[thunder427]

....Sandown, mid 80's Lucio Cesario, RT4 Ralt ,lapping a second a lap quicker than anybody else, Wins!! ,CAMS (Completely Against Motor Sport) impounds the car and in complete view of all other competitors and public,strips the top of the engine (think open air and dust) Mr C is not happy,well it measures up to the exact dimensions....."So ,how come you can be a second a lap faster"????...not that they were ever told..Lucio never braked going over the top of the Sandown cnr hill....Big Balls....unfortunately there was no round of applause for a great drive..Just...you have to be cheating...any way I unfortunately lately I have been suffering a bad tick, sorta goes 'Fuck the officials' (King's for a Day ) and thier Bullshit, we just want to 'Race cars' and if you think I am wrong how about when we were at Wannaroo/WA and the Scrut say to me (Jane/A9X Torana)... Headlights!!...OK Dip-em....We had an early column, no dip switch..."What time does the race finish???, was my come back....opps ,wrong answer....."You will be disqualified unless those lights dip"......shit!! we had driven for 2 F'in days to get to Perth......went back to the pit bay, told Pat (and ducked !!)...Fucking WHAT !!...any way the bit you will love all you that say you don't 'Cheat'.........Pat brings back the Scrut!...I've by this time got tools and shit every where, Pat bundles me outa the road...."Did you hook up the loom"??...'Roger,Done"....so this clip board carrier stands at the front, calls Lights...Yep!!..Dip-em...OK your on the grid,you see we can all get along with a little simply co-operation, no need for 'smart' remarks..glarring at me.......I'm Mystified!!,"How did you do that Pat" ?/?? ...well when he said 'Lights',I switched the lights on and when he said, "Dip-em' I switched the lights 'on and off'...certainly fooled him !!!............MJ:cool:

[Dave B]

Being an ex speedway scrutineer I've seen some VERY creative interpretation of rules and some downright cheating. The downright cheating and the officialdom's attitude (its alright, they have been here for years and can pretty much do wat they want) is the reason I walked away from it thus costing the sport a dedicated volunteer. Thing is, some of the cheats had the talent not to need to cheat but that win at all costs and win every race attitude drove them to cheating.

[928]

you know the whole cheating senario can be beaten very easily with one rule that I saw in an old NASCAR rule book.

rule 2 IF WE DO NOT MENTION IT YOU CANNOT TOUCH IT.

problem solved, get it in YOUR rule book and I might come and play

[Kiwiboss]

Smokey Yunick off-course was the best cheater around, (urrr i mean rule bender) one story i heard(or read) years ago was when NASCAR said you had to run a restrict-or plate under the carburetor and that all the air must run thu the carburetor, what he did was removed the 4 mounting bolts that went into the intake manifold that held the Holley 4 barrel down, he then fitted a clamp to hold the carburetor but allowed air to be sucked thu the 4 holes(air was still running thu the carburetor) as well as the carb and with the mixture adjust accordingly he obtained a slight HP advantage!! and yet he was quite legally allowed to do so!! once found out NASCAR changed the wording to say "All the air must past thu the carburetor venturis" but quite in-genius at the time anyway!! but also quite amazing what adding ONE word can do to the meaning of a rule.

Dale M

[Racer Rog]

Smokey Yunick off-course was the best cheater around, (urrr i mean rule bender) one story i heard(or read) years ago was when NASCAR said you had to run a restrict-or plate under the carburetor and that all the air must run thu the carburetor, what he did was removed the 4 mounting bolts that went into the intake manifold that held the Holley 4 barrel down, he then fitted a clamp to hold the carburetor but allowed air to be sucked thu the 4 holes(air was still running thu the carburetor) as well as the carb and with the mixture adjust accordingly he obtained a slight HP advantage!! and yet he was quite legally allowed to do so!! once found out NASCAR changed the wording to say "All the air must past thu the carburetor venturis" but quite in-genius at the time anyway!! but also quite amazing what adding ONE word can do to the meaning of a rule.

Dale M

Dale I might have told you this, but others maybe interested, years ago, I went to a after match dinner in Charlotte, where smokey was a guest speaker, dead pan face, and I was rolling around the floor, he was like Billy Conelly, but one of the things he said, has always stuck in my mind, "The racing started when the rules were posted" so they would look at all the things that were not written down.
Roger