MSNZ - Schedule K and T&C and maybe FIA HTP related questions info etc

[nzeder]

I thought I would start this thread given some posts on other threads about Schedule K, T & C and even FIA HTP.

I am looking at this thread from a pure Saloon, Sport and GT point of view as most of the open wheelers, F5000, FJ etc will already be well aware of the process of Schedule K or FIA HTP.

First we don't seem to have many Saloon, Sport and GT cars that are to Schedule K or FIA HTP standard. Most cars seem to be running under T & C - please correct me if I am wrong.

I would like the aim of this thread to answer a few questions and maybe help others (including myself) prep our cars to one of the standards that best suits how we want to race, our budgets, or how we want to even build our cars.

I have taken a few quotes/posts from another thread


I have not spoken to the members from the "Datsun Z Club" that attended the AGM yet - but I am interested to know more about how T&C and Schedule K is seen. My Datsun Z that I am trying to get ready for the coming season (when time and money permits - both of which I am short like so many) is currently nothing more than a rolling caged shell stilling at my parents (don't have room here with another Z in bit in the shed). I have not committed to the brake setup and my suspension has not been setup completely either (coilover only held in place with hose clamps waiting for final ride height etc). All the mods are true to the factory options or period mods. So now with the comments above about T&C should be abandoned/made redundant - what should I do?

I still need to run new brake hard lines and fuel hard lines (inside the car away from the factory location right next to the drive shaft - so a safety mod which should be permitted just on safety grounds along). My car is all factory panels, missing the odd badge (but I have some from the road car that I can install).

So my question is this to those who attended - can I get my car finished and through as a Schedule K "competition sport & gt car" aka group o? The car will be missing some interior that can't be refitted around the cage - a Datsun Z is not that large inside. I do plan to run period brakes and rims that are period replicas (who want to be running on 1970's magnesium rims - 1 they cost a packet, 2. they would be old magnesium rims so that is just dangerous) All the mods I can proof are period mods and I am replicating them as they were. This car I am building will be road legal once I complete it when the $$ are their to go though all the hoops you need to get car with a full cage on the road.

However with the comments about T&C and the like do I just give up now and just focus on getting my road version going and spend time with my young family and forget my hobby of classic racing?


In my experience the schedule K requirements are less onerous than getting a roll cage homologated. My BMW "02 which has a sched K classification is a replica, not an original race car. I don't understand various people who persist in thinking it is a requirement.

You simply need to list the modifications together with the justification which can be, in descending order of importance, homologation papers, period books, photos and magazine articles or lastly current photos or articles. In my case to complicate matters the original Group 2 papers are listed by the FIA "Lost, not available" but BMW Mobile Tradition in Munich were able to supply me from their archives sufficient (around 250) pages of amendments and additions together with enough of the original pages to piece together the major homologated items and make some assumptions about others. For example 4 pages of brake rotor and caliper sizes implies wheel diameter dimensions which were not included amongst the information.

MSNZ processed the application quickly and efficiently, a couple of questions about one or two specific items and the stamp went down! Obviously with a car where the complete papers are available, it will be even easier. Why there seems to be so much reluctance to embrace Sched K is beyond me. It fixes so many of the issues prevalent in "classic" racing.


nzeder, Schedule K is for exact "period" built race cars with the idea of obtaining a FIA Historic Technical Passport(HTP) and T&C is for "Modified" saloons and sports cars with only certain allowable changes, with the idea of obtaining a Certificate of Description(COD)!! This here is only a debate, nothing is changing within Motorsport NZ and the Classic and Historic commission from my understanding is more than happy with the current status-quo!! so you can either build your 240Z to NO rules and race it club type events were there is less concern about rules, or to K/T&C and be eligible for more pure Historic and Classic events like say the Festival!!

To be-able to race with HMC in future events like the "Legends" you will need one of the above as we won't except vehicles outside the K/T&C, HMC criterior.

And that's what is great about NZ motor-sport, you can choose your desired path.

Dale M


So i take it Howard that you have at MSNZ HTP?

Dale M


I was originally planning to apply for an FIA HTP but was advised by MSNZ that it would take over 6 months and to apply for sched K and COD in the meantime. As the car was completed and I was itching to go racing, it seemed the best interim option.

The HTP would allow the car to compete (and presumable be saleable) anywhere in the world, however much as that would be a nice dream it is unlikely to happen! In any case, speaking recently to a NZ Formula Junior competitor who has been lucky enough to get an invite to Goodwood this year, the technical compliance regime for meetings such as that are very specific and detailed. I didn't ask, but I gathered, way more restrictive than the HTP.

[nzeder]

I have also contacted MSNZ about applying for FIA HTP and as informed this is great if you attend to run the overseas at a Historic & Classic International Meeting. I too was told the process can take sometime while things are checked and verified. If the car is only ever planned to be raced locally in NZ then the Schedule K and COD is the simplest solution.

I have spent the last few evening reading and re-reading not only the MSNZ Manual 35 on Schedule K and T&C but also the FIA Appendix K. I have been trying to take this all on board and understand it all. It can be complex at times especially if are also looking at the things you might want to do on a build as it can alter the cars period and therefore the rules that apply to the car as it will have to be classified.

This is the important bit that I can make out - the period of car will determine what can and can't be done to the car in question.

There is a lot of similarities between MSNZ Schedule K and FIA Appendix K however in reading all of these documents MSNZ Schedule K is a little bit easier to understand - assuming I have got it right - hence this thread so we are clear and we all understand the rules in which our cars are run under/audited to etc.

Some of my post might be a bit long so I apologize up front for that.

The key to all this is as I see it with the COD and FIA HTP is this it is a point in time freeze on the car in question - it means if the COD and/or FIA HTP is to be valid then the car can't be altered.

This might be the rub for why we don't have many K cars (let me call it that for short hand. K car/s where I use this implies either a MSNZ Schedule K or FIA Appendix K with HTP) as most have altered their cars as they keep racing them, get faster or budgets allow new bit and pieces.

I believe this is the whole point of the K car process - so keep control of budgets and lock in the car so modern technology and improvements are not morphed into a classic car - can I also add that I will drop the Historic in this thread as to me that implies an open wheeler and classic means a Saloon, Sport and GT cars - that is just my opinion and I happy to be persuaded into another way of thinking please send me a PM if I need to change my way and keep this thread on topic :D

[John McKechnie]

Was thinking myself that a thread like this was necessary, so thanks for getting this underway.

[nzeder]

So lets first clear up some of the confusion over K cars - they don't have to be "The Car" from the day they can be a new build finished today, tomorrow or sometime into the future. K cars can include "The Car" from the day but also these new builds.

The key point is the new builds and even "The Car" must be true to the Period the car is built to. This is my understanding having read the documents.

So for example if you managed to acquire a genuine....let me talk about the marque of car I own and love (sorry if you don't like them I do and I know a lot about them) 1970 Datsun 240z ex Works Rally car. Maybe the find/purchase was lucky and it was a freeze in time a true barn find so you only need to restore the car. Then the process is simple (costly sure) but the car is correct, parts are correct just need to do the paper work etc. Depending on the state of the Works car as I now Nissan changed the groups the cars were homologated for will depend on the group/period the car will be classified under either MSNZ Schedule K or FIA Appendix K HTP.

Again this is a dump as my brain that hurts from this reading to make sure I have got it right and other get the same results as I.

Again lets assume you find "the car" but it was modified sometime in 1974 for circuit racing. You know have a choice - restore the car to 74 period or remove the mods that are outside the rules for when it ran in 1970 and restore to that spec and apply for the paper work.

The same applies to a Datsun 240z you find/purchase on trademe/via a club member etc. You have choices when it comes to K cars.

1. Run it as a Group 3 (that what Datsun 240z/260z/280z aka S30 chassic) Standard Production Sport & GT car = the car must match those rules/FIA homologated for the period chosen basically a standard road car.

2. Run it as a Group 4 Competition Sports and GT - all the Works parts were mostly homologated under this group. ie a Works replica like "the car" described above - however you have to find or replicate the works parts so they will be accepted as true replicas of original parts - having said that "the car" might need to do the same if the parts are not there or unusable.

Depending on your chosen Marque and model of car you might have more scope for changes as that manufacture might have homologated more optional parts under different groups etc. However there are some bits in the rules that are very clear you can't mix and match from different groups and periods to build something that suits you ie the best of each bit.

An example of that is pre 72 fiber glass doors, bonnet, guards where permitted for a given group and pre 72 is the period. Now if you want to run 4 pot brakes that were approved in 76 replacing the 2 pots then you have to give up the fiber glass panels as they were banded after 72. So you can't run both the fiber glass panels and the 4 pots in the period of the build. So you pick the period and stick with it.

This is where all the documents and evidence you can get the better chance you have of running the car - if you can't proof a part was used via the methods outlined in the documents then the standard part is applied.

If a car had a 4 link in 75 and only a SOHC but in the same make and model ran but in 70 ran a 2 link and DOHC you can't have the a 4 link and DOHC and run either period.

K cars are to be build and ran as Homologated first and for most then as I read the MSNZ Schedule K then other options from the period can be fitted if the car is classified correctly ie adding an part from the options/sports list might mean the car is not longer a "Series Production (Saloon) car" but becomes in fact a "Competition Touring Car"

I will talk about Schedule T&C next.

[ERC]

Keep it going Mike. I believe you are spot on so far and although Nigel Russell's example at conference was originally a single-seater, what he emphasised was exactly what you have stated. You must be true to the year and then supply supporting documentation for Schedule K.

I'll sit back until after you have covered the T & C side as that is probably where there is a really good debate!

[Howard Wood]

nzeder,
Your read of the document is exactly as I understood it too. Specific examples probably better illustrate the process for obtaining a Sched K classification and your example of a Datsun 240Z is a good one.For that reason I will briefly explain the background to some date and specification decisions I needed to make over the '02 build and subsequent application.

From about 1972 to 1975 BMW and Ford were engaged in a furious battle involving homologating all sorts of "optional extras" for the 2002, CSL, Escort and Capri in an effort to win both the overall European Touring Car Championship and the 2 litre class. In theory to become homologated 1000 examples had to be produced. The game changer was the arrival of Ford's BDA engine so for 1974 the FIA changed the rules to allow 4 valve heads if 100 examples were built together with virtually unlimited bodywork modifications. The 1974 BMW works 2002s had the 295 hp M12/7 Formula 2 engine, rear mounted radiators, wings and 14inch wide rear tyres! Not an easy car to replicate even if you have a spare 50,000 Euros to buy an M12/7 engine. Plus they are butt ugly!

My research suggested that the last of the 2 valve M10 engined Group 2 cars from 1973 had the best combination of homologated components and by a happy co-incidence the factory build date of my car was late 1973. At this point I started trolling through the 250 odd pages of (in German) Homologation pages and supplements kindly given by BMW Mobile Tradition and compiled a build sheet long before putting a spanner near the car.

This process obviously is easier with a "new" build. Almost any car with competition history, unless abandoned in a barn will have been modified, often dramatically, in order to keep it competitive or because the expensive pukka bits broke and were too expensive to repair.

[Parnelli]

Hi nzeder, I’m fairly new to all this Schedule K, T & C, HTP , COD and so question the relevance of this revenue generating bureaucratic bull…. so thanks for starting this thread, I’m sure we can all learn from others experience with these matters. I can see the necessity for historic , period correct cars that wish to race internationally , but for the rest of us that just want to get out there and have some fun then, why should we bother getting involved ? If ERC can run his series for so long with consistently large grids , then perhaps we all need to adopt to KISS principle to our racing.

[Allan]

Would someone who has the patience to read and try and understand the rule book sort out what of the following is allowed and where this car would fit into the various classes and schedules.
The car is Italian 1971 with 1600cc dohc engine, 5 speed transmission 4 wheel solid disc brakes as standard equipement.
The normal modifications for "say" Targa/club type events would be:-
2000cc dohc motor (modified but not dramatically) 2 x 40/45 DCOE replacing the original 2 choke down draft, different camshaft profile, ignition from same manufacturer 1975 on etc
5 speed transmission from 1975-83 same manufacturer but different model
The differential is Japanese
The front rotors are larger and vented (late 1980s) the rears solid although larger.
The calipers are 1990s from the same manufacturer
Caged with MSNZ approved seats and harnesses etc
So apart from the Japanese differential the entire mechanicals of the car is from the same manufacturer although not necessarily the same model. The reasons, like those of most car builders, for the mods are to make it go, make it stop, make it safe and make it reliable.
Any thoughts?
Allan

[Carlo]

Would someone who has the patience to read and try and understand the rule book sort out what of the following is allowed and where this car would fit into the various classes and schedules.
The car is Italian 1971 with 1600cc dohc engine, 5 speed transmission 4 wheel solid disc brakes as standard equipement.
The normal modifications for "say" Targa/club type events would be:-
2000cc dohc motor (modified but not dramatically) 2 x 40/45 DCOE replacing the original 2 choke down draft, different camshaft profile, ignition from same manufacturer 1975 on etc
5 speed transmission from 1975-83 same manufacturer but different model
The differential is Japanese
The front rotors are larger and vented (late 1980s) the rears solid although larger.
The calipers are 1990s from the same manufacturer
Caged with MSNZ approved seats and harnesses etc
So apart from the Japanese differential the entire mechanicals of the car is from the same manufacturer although not necessarily the same model. The reasons, like those of most car builders, for the mods are to make it go, make it stop, make it safe and make it reliable.
Any thoughts?
Allan

Have a look at Schedule RH, it may suit your purpose better

[Allan]

Thanks Carlo.

[ERC]

The normal modifications for "say" Targa/club type events would be:-
2000cc dohc motor (modified but not dramatically) 2 x 40/45 DCOE replacing the original 2 choke down draft, different camshaft profile, ignition from same manufacturer 1975 on etc 5 speed transmission from 1975-83 same manufacturer but different model
The differential is Japanese
The front rotors are larger and vented (late 1980s) the rears solid although larger.
The calipers are 1990s from the same manufacturer
Any thoughts?
Allan
My thoughts are that it is perfectly OK in the ERC Series - without any documentation...

[Allan]

Thank you also ERC. That's more like what I wanted to hear. It wouldn't fit into schedule RH as I read it.
Like many people thinking about building some sort of competition car I really need to know what is acceptable to the various series that exist in NZ so as not to turn up only to be turned away because I didn't do my homework first.
Allan

[Oldfart]

Thank you also ERC. That's more like what I wanted to hear. It wouldn't fit into schedule RH as I read it.
Like many people thinking about building some sort of competition car I really need to know what is acceptable to the various series that exist in NZ so as not to turn up only to be turned away because I didn't do my homework first.
Allan

I think you have answered your own question in the last phrase!
Targa (having been on 10) will allow almost anything, you just need to declare and you will be classed. Be prepared that a number of classic competitors are getting tetchy about the "hot rods" which are a mish mash of bits and would like most "classic" to revert to period components, with the appropriate wheels, tyres, brakes, gearboxes etc. Seats, roll cages are a different issue. In regard series, you need to check where you want to run, conform and if you don't want to conform, accept that they may not want you. It's your choice.

[ERC]

Allan, you may also want to check out Alfa Trofeo. Oldfart is correct, some do get a bit tetchy but I believe Alfa can offer an invitation to any Italian car if they so desire. The reason for that is straightforward. Unlike BMW, there are not vast numbers around at a fair price so viability as a race series is dependant on numbers. Like us, Alfa have a few issues with T & C but we work very closely with them as there is a certain synergy that outsiders (and critics) probably do not fully understand, but it may well come out in this thread - eventually.

[nzeder]

Would someone who has the patience to read and try and understand the rule book sort out what of the following is allowed and where this car would fit into the various classes and schedules.
The car is Italian 1971 with 1600cc dohc engine, 5 speed transmission 4 wheel solid disc brakes as standard equipement.
The normal modifications for "say" Targa/club type events would be:-
2000cc dohc motor (modified but not dramatically) 2 x 40/45 DCOE replacing the original 2 choke down draft, different camshaft profile, ignition from same manufacturer 1975 on etc
5 speed transmission from 1975-83 same manufacturer but different model
The differential is Japanese
The front rotors are larger and vented (late 1980s) the rears solid although larger.
The calipers are 1990s from the same manufacturer
Caged with MSNZ approved seats and harnesses etc
So apart from the Japanese differential the entire mechanicals of the car is from the same manufacturer although not necessarily the same model. The reasons, like those of most car builders, for the mods are to make it go, make it stop, make it safe and make it reliable.
Any thoughts?
Allan
With out knowing the model and no research I could not comment on FIA HTP or Schedule K as both are based on the same principle and for FIA HTP that is what was homologated in the period the car fits into. Schedule K is same. Things become tricky when there are not FIA homologation papers to build to.

This is where I think we are lucky here in NZ we have Schedule T&C - which I will now see if I get this right.

T&C rules are basically a really good platform for most classic racers - it has some flexibility but then is tight on other areas.

The principle is take a standard series production car be it a Saloon or Sports/GT leave the body work 100% standard leaving all bumbers, bright work etc - but then allow modifications to the selected model based on the rules set in the out in T&C. Over the years however there has been a lot of mis-interpretation of the rules. MSNZ has during this time re-written/worded the rules to make it clearer as to what the principles are. However I believe there is still a lot of confusion with regards to T&C. Let me see if I can get this right.

First an opinion - I feel that some areas in any form of motorsport car preparation should be not negotiable. I believe that replacing standard rubber brake hoses with a braided hose should be compulsory just on the grounds of safety - much like your comment about make it stop Allan.

T&C is I feel very clear also - Pick your car example a Ford Mark I Escort. The model you might purchase is a 1300 but you might feel that you would to race a RS2000 - so under T&C you can do this as it is in the same model series. Again as the cars in question are mass produced ie more than 1000 examples manufactured over a 12 month period - if the model you select does not meet this then you need to turn to FIA Appemdix K HTP or Schedule K COD and see if the model can fit under a period replica/fresh build to the FIA homologation of the model in question = lots or research to get the proof such a car did run in the configuration you require as that is outside of T&C which must be based on a standard production car - so something like a Hobay Escort does not fit T&C as that car was not sold to the general public - it is a FIA special, a period race car so needs to be built to FIA homologation under FIA Appendix K HTP or Schedule K COD.

I have not read the rules on Schedule RH or CR or others - I so far have only researched K and T&C.

So under T&C your now selected RS2000 Mk1 (made from a 1300 2 door) needs to have all the original body work as fitted and sold on the RS2000 - so if that means GT front steel guards then you should be sourcing some of those if the RS2000 only came with those (I don't know escorts so if I am wrong please correct me - again I am Nissan S30 aka Datsun 240z/260z/280z Fairlady Z, Fairlady 240Z, Fairlady 240ZG, Fairlady Z432 and the Fairlady Z432-R all the same chassic different markets/models/specs and some different options/configurations). You can now modify the RS2000 as permitted in the rules - 15" max under T&C, no front spoilers, only factory rear spoilers (so no homologated special parts, bubble flares etc these are non standard body parts - not fitted or sold to the standard production cars). Engine can be enlarged, cams changes, etc - all this is very clear in the rules. Suspension and brakes can be modified/changed as stated in the rules. However the key is these changes my have been available and carried out on a RS2000 somewhere racing in the world and be proven these suspension/brake mods were carried out.

I think if they can't be proven but you know it could have been done then I think Schedule CR is what you can look at for a retrospective replica/special.

So that is how I read the T&C rules - it is not an anything goes, it is if it was done it can still be done.

I don't think using a modern rotor is an issue - for example take my car a Datsun Z - if I build to K car spec the FIA approved brake setup can't be replicated today with new parts as they are NLA (no longer available), rotors can't be purchased, second hand calipers can be purchased and seal kits for them are still available. So I assume the FIA and others like MSNZ would allow a suitable replacement if dimensionally correct. ie say a car was homologated with a 276x20mm rotor but that is NLA but you could modify a BMW E36 rear rotor to fit which is 276x19mm then that should be acceptable and this is even covered in the FIA Appendix K rules - parts can be replicated if the material/process of manufacturing and dimensions are the same.

I am sure if budget was no issue you could have a foundry make new rotors to the correct dimensions etc...however I am sure most would be fine with a suitable substitute.

So that is how I read the T&C rules - must be based on standard production model range using the standard body - much like Schedule K and FIA Appendix K for Series Production (Saloons) and Standard Production Sport & GT. However you are not limited to the FIA Homologation for these standard base models - ie if only homologated with downdraft carbs then that is how it is to stay in a K car config - however T&C allow the fitment of DCOE if this was done in period aka if that was done to a Competition Touring Car - without having to conform 100% to the FIA homologation for the model as a Competation Touring Car - so it is more like a 1/2 way point - a little more scope than a FIA Group 1 or Group 3 homologated car but does not have to be as 100% like the Group 2 or 4 etc.

[nzeder]

Hi nzeder, I’m fairly new to all this Schedule K, T & C, HTP , COD and so question the relevance of this revenue generating bureaucratic bull…. so thanks for starting this thread, I’m sure we can all learn from others experience with these matters. I can see the necessity for historic , period correct cars that wish to race internationally , but for the rest of us that just want to get out there and have some fun then, why should we bother getting involved ? If ERC can run his series for so long with consistently large grids , then perhaps we all need to adopt to KISS principle to our racing.
My only reply to that is reading the rule book if any event is run/held under MSNZ Appendix 6 then cars running need to have a COD ie be classified as Schedule K, T&C, CR etc. If a meeting he held under Appendix A then it is a clubman type event and then anything goes it is clubmans racing as I once heard from a HRC member. However girds sometime also have a set of rules to run under - ie BMW etc to have good safe grids without large speed differential.

I like handicap racing - it is a leveller, fun and if all respect each cars and ability then everyone finishes after all we are talking about cars that finding parts/panels are becoming harder and harder and more costly. There is no reset like on a Playstation and all is damage is gone.

I do agree with the KISS approach - and if you look at T&C it is a very KISS set of rules - it is clear so I don't see how there are so many "hot rods" racing. The issue we see with T&C today is with existing cars - that have been modified outside of the rules as they are today ie not trying to pick on a bubble flared escorts but that is just not a standard production body - not matter what rule book you read - yes homologated under some FIA group but that does not mean it fits T&C

It would be like if I built a Datsun 240z to full Group 4 Spec with all the Group 4 body work - here is a picture then try and run that under T&C = epic fail it is not standard production body work. However the next picture is a standard Datsun 240z well in this case a Fairlady 240zg which was used to homologate the longer nose and flares in Group4 -so the top pic = not T&C but the bottom is as that is the standard production body work.
1975/76 Le Mann Datsun 260Z - period race car aka K car
http://zhome.com/History/LeMansZ/1975LeMans240Z.jpg
1972 Fairlady 240ZG - production car
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4221/4762/23052380622_large.jpg

[Barry]

It is encouraging to see there are people that take the time to read the rules before they build a car rather than build one and try to get the rules changed to suit.
This will be a great thread for people to understand the K,T&C rules and where they apply, you can still build cars for series rules but if you want to build one to race in Classic or Historic racing read the rules first and save yourself and the commission a lot of problems later.

[RacerT]

Would someone who has the patience to read and try and understand the rule book sort out what of the following is allowed and where this car would fit into the various classes and schedules.
The car is Italian 1971 with 1600cc dohc engine, 5 speed transmission 4 wheel solid disc brakes as standard equipement.
The normal modifications for "say" Targa/club type events would be:-
2000cc dohc motor (modified but not dramatically) 2 x 40/45 DCOE replacing the original 2 choke down draft, different camshaft profile, ignition from same manufacturer 1975 on etc
5 speed transmission from 1975-83 same manufacturer but different model
The differential is Japanese
The front rotors are larger and vented (late 1980s) the rears solid although larger.
The calipers are 1990s from the same manufacturer
Caged with MSNZ approved seats and harnesses etc
So apart from the Japanese differential the entire mechanicals of the car is from the same manufacturer although not necessarily the same model. The reasons, like those of most car builders, for the mods are to make it go, make it stop, make it safe and make it reliable.
Any thoughts?
Allan

Hi Allan. It's good to get an actual case study. I presume your car is a FIAT? All the mods are acceptable under T&C except perhaps the engine size? Did your model of car have an 1800 cc derivative, because the maximum increase in size allowed is 12 1/2% for T&C?

[nzeder]

If the car a Fiat (which it sounds like given the specs given - a model that went from 67-75 if I recall - like them too ;) ) the it will have the Lampredi's Twin Cam engine which was available in 1297cc all the way to 1995cc. As RacerT points out T&C allows 12.5% cc increase over the base engine. So if the model is the same much like a Datsun 240z is to a Datsun 260z and the US market Datsun 280z in 2 seater form share most of the same suspension, chassic, external body work with only minor upgrades like engine, different dash and other things but the base chassis is still an S30.

So lets say that is a Fiat 124 coupe then they are a continuation in the model AC -> BC -> CC based on I assume the C platform - much like the Datsun Z ie S30 = 2l JDM, HS30 = 2.4 240z, RS30 = 2.6 260z and HS30 again = 2.8 280z. So the CC had the 1756cc engine. So 1756 + 12.5% = 1975.5cc which is still a bit low for the 2l version which is 1995cc. So in this case the engine would be outside of the T&C rules.

[Oldfart]

The ones that get me are when someone creates a Hot Rod and claims classic. I hope I don't upset anyone as the following were built to the Targa framework, but a fairly good number of long term Targa competitors have left as a result of the following and similar.
Datsun Z with forced induction Chev, still claiming original year, Charger with Jericho gearbox, still claiming original year, Torana Hatch with LS, same claims.These are not the only ones, and as said above were built within the guidelines, but the essence of "Classic" is lost, and the outcome has been that the true classics go away.
Against these, and at the time are Avenger (factory race history) in original form, Renault A110, still running as built, solid discs, factory box, engine prepared as works, etc etc.
Rant over :)

[nzeder]

I agree - like a Datsun Z with a V8 should be built like a true Sarab was back in the day to be called a classic. However targa has it own set of rule outside of the T&C, Schedule K stuff does it not?

Is this part of the problem? Should T&C which I think are good KISS set of rules that are applied to any class that want to hold a classic field/grid etc. Then the series organizers can make rules that are tighter not looser around T&C? If cars are entered ie the said Avenger, Renault A110 which would surely conform to K cars rules should be classed as such? Therefore run as they did against car as they did in a K cars group then other "classic" run under the T&C - anything outside of that goes into the groups the series organizers wishes but are not called "classics"

The Datsun I have as track car was getting built as a Targa car by the PO - it had modern brake setup, modern Nissan 6 cylinder engine (still over 20 years old and to be honest a good old L6 that was factory fitted to a Datsun can be made to go just as well as the later DOHC version in NA form - turbo....well different ball game). I am going back to T&C or Schedule K hence starting this thread to make sure I understand the rules before I spend more $$ and time over winter getting ready for September.

Not really sure what the answer is hence the starting of this thread also so we can all discuss issues/rules etc.

If you look at T&C putting K cars aside for a bit. What is wrong with the rules as they stand today? Anything? Rays grid does not enforce a COD yet I believe more than 2/3 have COD's surely that tells a story - it is mostly working. So what needs to be addressed if at all to make the remaining 1/3 conform?

Is the issue a little more complex?

K cars rules are great for standard unmodified car - so that box is ticked.
K cars rules are great for "the car" or new builds built 100% period correct as they ran "internationally" - did some more reading and that is what I get from the Appendix K stuff it must have run in that configuration at an FIA international event - not a national event. so that box is ticked.
T&C is for us Kiwi's that like to modify our cars - within a given set of rules ie period brakes, limited by tyre size and aspect ratio for the pre 78 groups with more mods allowed to the engines vs the later groups - that is all in the aim of keeping the grids at a level playing field. T&C is not locked down to as raced in period at an international event. You just have to prove that somewhere in the world the car was raced like it was with X and Y.

Currently under T&C you have to run both drivers and passengers seats - yet some grids under their series rules allow the removal of the passengers seats etc. So this comes back the bit in bolt above (someone else idea not mine but I like it) is it currently backwards? Should T&C allow the removal of the passengers seat then if a series organizer does not like that rule they can "tighten" the rules under their series but not go "looser". If we have groups under T&C for pre 78 with X mods but no room for engine conversions from the same manufacture aka Fiat story above - out side of T&C rules as the engine is too large - yet this is what we have seen happen at the tracks time and time again. So can this be fixed? Sure there is the hard nosed - not T&C go away....or should this be allow that but then the group changes? ie a 1971 once was 1600cc Fiat which would have been group 2 under T&C now with its 1995cc has to be moved into group 4 - where the group 4 rules now apply? I guess the tricky bit comes to brakes and suspension. Under pre 78 brake can be upgraded but the post 77 to 15 years old can't change - only pads can be changed. Now lets take a YB power Escort or a Alfa with later twin spark engine. So as a result of the conversion only 1.5mm overbore is now permitted and this Alfa or Escort now has to follow the group 3 and 4 rules. If a series organizer does not want repowers - he locks down his series rules to stop that.

The only one thing I can say about the above is for any pre 78 car with an engine conversion or not the wow should be managed and maybe a simple rule if the chassis is pre 78 15" rims is the bar nothing higher even if used in period - if you want to run with the larger rims in period then go K car racing and be 100% period correct. Then allow brake upgrades that will fit within the 15" rims using period style calipers - however the rest of the later group rules apply.

Anyway guys looking for more thoughts and comments keep this alive.

[ERC]

Fair comments above, but let's not get too tangled up in terminology as a means for either banning or accepting any car. I fail to understand why the Morrari or Zephyr Corvette is lauded as a piece of NZ history; a single-seater built out of period bits last year is OK; but a saloon built out of period bits is not. In other words, you couldn't put that Ferrari engine in the Zephyr as it wasn't done in period.

I really don't care what you call a Triumph Herald coupe with period Rover V8, as run in Targa for several years, but whether you call it a Hot Rod, a Retro Classic or an orphan, shouldn't bar the owner from driving it on a race track if he so wishes. As long as he drives it to a standard acceptable to the classic fraternity, that is fine by me as it is a far more honest car than a F5000 with illegal heads, or a schedule K car driven like a fairground dodgem.

Therefore whether we use the word "classic" or not, is somewhat irrelevant. What is important is that overall, we present decent sized grids of cars where there is a degree of mutual respect between drivers, regardless of the car.

[nzeder]

ERC fair call - way can't a 70's Escort be powered by a 70's Rover V8 for that matter - it could have been done by someone in period like you say just because it did not happen does not make a car any more illegal than a Morrari.

Is that not was MSNZ Schedule CR is all about? Has anyway tried to get a Saloon/Sport & GT approved under CR? I know CR looks to be around single seaters but could we not have T&C which is all about the Saloon/Sport & GTs with a CR like component to it maybe a group 5 and 6 with rules allowing these type of Retrospective Specials and Replica's that could have been build in the day.

[Spgeti]

Hello nzeder, this is a great thread and bound to get all sorts of opinions. I own a 1974 105 series Alfa Romeo GTV 2000. I last raced the car in 2007 and put it all aside to get my health in order and now I am well and ready to bring it out again to play with. The car was originally built to T&C and I would like to continue along that line. Having fun is my kick and not winning at all cost. Yes ERC, Ray, I belong to the Alfa Romeo Owners Club NZ, known as AROCNZ. The Alfa Trofeo Racing series have their own rules which cater for a wide varity of cars with different modifications to suit their classes. For me living in the Manawatu and apart from one meeting held at Manfield which is organised by AROC Manawatu Branch they are in my opinion a North of the Bombay thing.
Don't get me wrong I respect what they do and have many good friends amongst the Trofeo members.
My problem is that down here we are limited to the MG meetings and the Manawatu Winter Series that cater for us. The rules of Trofeo do not match the rules of MG and The Winter Series for my car.
If I was to build my car to K that would involve a fair bit of research and cost so for me keeping as T&C is my option. My car is not heavily modified and has standard body and interior, but well modified twin cam. If I was to replicate a GTAm 2000 a correct 2ltr engine is $60 thousand Euro,........mmmmm.
Twin Sparks are not correct, being manufactured 1986 with variable cams and not avaliable in 105s or Alfettas and in my interpretation not even allowed in T&C. (Nor are 16 valve Boxers in Suds and Sprints since the manufacture date is 1990 and only made for the Series 3 Alfa 33.)
They are allowed in the Trofeo rules and that is fine for their Series and I can appreciate the reasons, lack of avalibility and parts for the Boxer but that also applies to the 16 valve.
The Twin Cam, all parts are still avaliable be it at a cost along with the majority of parts for the 105.
I really like Howards BMW and wish you all the best with the 240Z

[Kiwiboss]

Keep it up guys, this is a great thread!! im keeping and eye on you all, LOL

Still in keeping with K, T&C but more to do with meeting events themselves! one of the problems i've seen with the NZ Classic and Historic scene over the years is that most event organizers don't control the legality of the groups!! its sort of like "lets scoop all the entries up" and divide them like chopping up a apple!!Hmmm whether the control should be done with the event organsers or MSNZ H&C commission i don't know, but something needs to be done!! in Australia(some on here may know more correctly) i believe CAMS wont even issue a permit for a C&H event unless the cars are correct to the "rules" when when entering!! they won't even let non-period signage on these old girls!! Do we need do the same?

Dale M

[ERC]

And therein lies the stumbling block Spgeti. I believe Alfa run a set of rules that are practical and pragmatic, but not 100% within the current T & C.

They are the surely the acknowledged experts as to what is viable, affordable and practical but above all sustainable, for Alfas. Because they sit outside the T & C/CoD system. It means that there are events to which they are not a good fit as a class. The same applies to the ERC series. They can live with it as we can. Both series have more than enough invitations to sufficient events to make a viable series and the same applies to BMW who seem able to transcend meetings from Tier 1 to "classic" one day clubbies, HRC meetings to annual Hampton Downs Festivals - without CoDs or an adherence to T & C. Race organisers make the overall rules and if they want to invite a specific series, they can - and do.

All three series have been criticised for NOT adhering to T & C and it is 100% up to race meeting promoters to decide whether to invite T & C or CoD compliant cars or not.

I think is sad Spgeti, that you have a car that would be acceptable in two popular, well supported series around here, but there are meetings in which you cannot run, even though to 99% of observers, your car is still a Fiat, powered by a Fiat engine.

To paraphrase Jaydee - "If it looks like an Alfa Romeo, it is an Alfa Romeo." If T & C rules exclude it, then maybe it is the T & C rules that need adjusting - though sadly, many see the T & C rules as sacrosanct, even where there are areas that have proven to be unworkable or unacceptable with some cars or marques.

I am not challenging the T & C rules as such nor demanding change, as we have now accepted that we are viable as we are, running just outside outside them.

[Allan]

Good thread guys with great information coming out.
The car I refer to is a FIAT 124 special T saloon with an engine capacity of 1592cc which would allow the use of the 1756cc twincam engine based on the 12.5% rule. The thoughts we have at the moment are to fit a FIAT 131 transmission (1975-83) and a Mazda diff. The brakes both front and rear would be FIAT but larger vented rotors at the front and larger rotor at the rear with calipers from FIATs of the late 1980s or early 90s. We would use 14 inch wheels (13 inch was standard). We are looking to build something that is reliable and safe that we could use for a variety of events without spending a huge fortune. We've already done that to achieve one good Targa finish in our FIAT 131R.
As an aside and not to highjack this thread Targa have a weird rule (my personal opinion) that places the car in a class/category according the last year of production which I find unusual as the way I see it the technology that built the car is normally 10 years or so before that.
Allan

[ERC]

Dale, I would shudder at the thought of any interference by MSNZ or the commission, poking their noses into what is working well - having just made a bank transfer to MSNZ for just on $2,500 from our April meeting!

Far from the race organisers "scooping up the entries" many invite specific groups (series) and therefore are bound by series rules of eligibility. If they were to try and pick and choose or interfere, then those series would go elsewhere - which has happened in the past.

Or, like the HD Festival, they elicit entries for conforming cars and allocate them to appropriate grids as they see fit. However, although entries may conform, the disparity or speed differentials within the grids is not acceptable to many of us and to be honest, at the recent festival, the driving standards left a lot to be desired with far too much car damage compared to a "normal" series meeting, where drivers know each other.

[nzeder]

I started this thread to

1. Make sure my understanding of the rules as they are is correct - tick I think I have the rules down.
2. Help me make a decision as to which direction I go with the car - K car or T&C - sort of tick I am still not sure which way to go. So time to ask more questions :D

At this point in time Spgeti I am learning towards T&C for much the same reasons.

I can't go K as a Standard Production Sports & GT as the car has mods done by the PO which are outside of the rule as I read them. The cage in the car goes front strut to rear strut and as mush as K rules don't focus on safety leaving that to the correct Schedule/Appendix it does state for that group the cage is not permitted to past thought the bulk head or finish near the suspension location point (going by memory this time). Plus it has a pedal box installed.

So that leaves K as a Competition Sport & GT car for the correct period which would be GT27 H1 for my 74 260z 2 seater - this does allow my to fit an L28 as approved in 7/75 without change the period or group for the car. I have the optional triple mikuni carbs and I have sourced the period works calipers (need rebuilding and new pistons + rotors are NLA). The car has adjustable suspension/coil overs/lower control arms etc so I am still researching what was done in period in this regard. Under MSNZ K I need to run 60 aspect ratio tyres yet under FIA K 15" and 570mm min total diamember aka 45/50 profile 15" come in larger than 570mm

Then T&C - body must be standard - check, period mods ie triple mikuni's, l28 check, adjustable suspension is ok check, brakes - I could run the works stuff or I can run other period calipers that were installed on the car and raced anywhere in the world. 15" rims with a 50 aspect ratio check .

So T&C is my lean right now as that is the cheaper option and the car with a pedal box and strut to strut cage fits those rules.

So my questions to those far more knowledgeable than I on these matters are.

1. Under FIA HTP or Schedule K is a pedal box permitted if used in period?
2. Why does the FIA Appendix K allow for 15" with 50 aspect ratio - fits in the min tyre diameter yet Schedule K states 60 aspect ratio.
3. Under K it states you can remove the heater and use another cateloged item for the made/model - but what if I want to remove the heater altogether and not have hot water from the engine bay inside near my feet - and just use a fan/blower for demisting only is this permitted?

Questions about T&C
1. T&C states Schedule AA for safety which also refers to Schedule A. Under Schedule A any liquid passing thought the cock pit is to be in a steel braid hose or hard line. If these lines pass thought a bulk head then a threaded bulk head fitting is to be used. So if I was to leave the heater in then my water which is a liquid inside the cock pit and passes through the firewall aka bulk head to the engine all this needs to be as stated. Is this correct?
2. Because of 1 this is why I want to remove the heater and again just run something for demist only and I can do this in T&C correct?

So it might be my personal desire not to have hot water from the engine bay that might dictate the class/path I go as T&C will allow it and if Schedule K or FIA Appendix K does not then T&C it will be

[Spgeti]

Yes ERC I agree with your summary of Alfa Trofeo rules.....they are made around what is sensible and what the trends are worldwide. Twinsparks are a logical solution to an ever disappearing twincam. While the 2ltrs twincam engines are still out there 1300s and 1600s are thin on the ground. What I don't like is the loss of oringinality and I have for several years considered it to be by some an easy way out.
The Trofeo Veloce Class is the closest to T&C but for me to run down here I have to be Bumpered where in Trofeo exemption is given to 105s to run as they were historically bumperless. Small thihg as it is but I find it quite annoying as bumpers are bloody near imposible to replace on the 105.
For us down here running our May Maddness Meeting we accept all comers as we need to fill the grids and this month had 25 Alfas on the grid.....all ages of cars and not one bump or damage after the day...smiles all round.
My car is correct in every part of T&C apart from the bumpers are removed.
I admire what you have done with your series over the many year but I also admire Dale and Steve for their strong stance with there rules with HMC....the yanks have all the parts to buy to achieve that desire where as us Itailians are at a disadvantage. Yes there are fewer 105s that come out to play these days and part of that are there increasing value.

[Carlo]

Good thread guys with great information coming out.
The car I refer to is a FIAT 124 special T saloon with an engine capacity of 1592cc which would allow the use of the 1756cc twincam engine based on the 12.5% rule. The thoughts we have at the moment are to fit a FIAT 131 transmission (1975-83) and a Mazda diff. The brakes both front and rear would be FIAT but larger vented rotors at the front and larger rotor at the rear with calipers from FIATs of the late 1980s or early 90s. We would use 14 inch wheels (13 inch was standard). We are looking to build something that is reliable and safe that we could use for a variety of events without spending a huge fortune. We've already done that to achieve one good Targa finish in our FIAT 131R.
As an aside and not to highjack this thread Targa have a weird rule (my personal opinion) that places the car in a class/category according the last year of production which I find unusual as the way I see it the technology that built the car is normally 10 years or so before that.
Allan

Running Schedule RH over a few things mentioned re the FIAT 124 special T saloon remembering that “The Period” Means prior to 1st January 1987. And that we have to look where the word “or” is used

4.3. Engine
(3) The original make of cylinder block and crankcase from the manufacturer of the vehicle or the homologated / Period option must be employed.
(4) The original make of cylinder head from the manufacturer of the vehicle or the
homologated / Period option must be employed. Modifications are free.

The thoughts we have at the moment are to fit a FIAT 131 transmission (1975-83)
4.4 Transmission:
(b) An homologated non OE option from an alternative vehicle of the Period, or
(c) An alternative transmission from the same vehicle manufacturer where the alternative transmission was fitted to a series production vehicle from that same manufacturer within the Period.

and a Mazda diff.
(3) Final drive: Free, provided that the original type of axle housing must be retained.

The brakes both front and rear would be FIAT but larger vented rotors at the front and larger rotor at the rear with calipers from FIATs of the late 1980s or early 90s.
4.6 Brakes:
(1) Dual circuit braking systems are permitted, as is the installation/removal of vacuum power assistance.
(2) Brake lining material and hydraulic hoses are free.
(3) Drum brakes may be replaced by Disc brakes. Rotors must be constructed only of ferrous material.
(4) Pedal boxes enabling adjustable brake bias are permitted.
(5) Hydraulic handbrakes are permitted.

We would use 14 inch wheels (13 inch was standard)
4.9 Road Wheels & Tyres:
(1) Wheel diameter may be varied by no more than two(2) sizes up or down from the
manufacturer’s specifications. Otherwise, wheels are free.

[ERC]

The Trofeo Veloce Class is the closest to T&C but for me to run down here I have to be Bumpered where in Trofeo exemption is given to 105s to run as they were historically bumperless. Small thing as it is but I find it quite annoying as
bumpers are bloody near impossible to replace on the 105.
Snap! The condition of the only bumpers I have for the MG detract from its appearance and I am not about to spend a couple of thousand dollars, getting them up to an accepable standard only for some wayward driver to bend them!

Which is why we have these niggling little hiccups. People making blanket rules need to understand that the chances of minor damage when racing, even with the high standards shown by the majority of classic racers, are generally to bumpers and impossible to source trims. (The H & C Commission have stated that they will grant an exemption for hard to source trims - but I presume that only extends to the application for a CoD.) Whilst you seem to be able to get absolutely anything for a Mini or an MGB (including a new shell), a Ford Mustang or Escort, the same cannot be said for many other makes. The last thing I want is for another bland grid of identical cars, forced upon us because the powers that be cannot see that the very essence of Classic racing is the sheer variety of vehicles presented, even to the extent of variations on a theme. ie 1300cc Escorts through to Gordon Burr's V8 Escort, Capri 2 litres to Perana V8 Capris, albeit most are not all that true to the original Peranas!

MG (Whittakers as was) is a prime example. They have always insisted on bumpers yet history shows that in many classes over the years, bumpers were removed, initially to save weight, but in the classic arena, it is to preserve the originality. The fact that MG always put on a well promoted and well supported meeting merely emphasises the point I made earlier. That is that the race organisers call the shots, not MSNZ and not the H & C Commission, so if we have a few cars that fall outside the requirements of two or three meetings a year, so be it.

The push for purity needs to be balanced by the commercial viability of a race meeting.

I too totally support Steve/Dale/Tony with their tight HMC rules, but it wouldn't work for us and it wouldn't work for some others and at this stage, HMC is still in a steady growth phase and has yet to achive financial viability as a stand alone grid. They are currently only doing 4 or 5 meetings a year.

[nzeder]

Even one of the most massed produced sports cars of it era - the Datsun 240z - has parts that are hard and almost impossible to obtain aka unobtainium unless you have big $$ to get a collector to part with them. Yes I am talking bumpers too. Once you could get parts from Nissan via Japan however more and more Nissan have retired the stock selling it off to private hands who sometimes will not part with them or only releasing parts bit by bit on a Japanese auction site for big $$.

Once you could just get a complete 260z 2+2 for parts at around $500-1500 but now they are ask up to $10,000 and a 240z (a good one) $20,000+

So even a car like the Datsun Z which was seen as an affordable classic is now becoming not affordable - I guess this might be why cars are in sheds? Parts are getting too $$ or hard to find? Sure it is ok if you can get new parts still that makes it much easier. I purchased a new bonnet from Nissan for my road car and that was $850 RRP and the first one they imported for me was damaged in transit so I refused to take it asking them to get another one - which they did and that too was damaged not as bad easy repair so I got a discount - I actually wanted another one I was not going to pay big $$ for damaged goods but I was told that was it they could not get another one out of Japan and that was 10 years ago. Front guards at the time were $450 RRP each and I have been told those too are NLA and that is front of the car that is shared between 2 seater and 2+2 version - rear of the car..well they have not been available for years.

[Spgeti]

I started this thread to



Questions about T&C
1. T&C states Schedule AA for safety which also refers to Schedule A. Under Schedule A any liquid passing thought the cock pit is to be in a steel braid hose or hard line. If these lines pass thought a bulk head then a threaded bulk head fitting is to be used. So if I was to leave the heater in then my water which is a liquid inside the cock pit and passes through the firewall aka bulk head to the engine all this needs to be as stated. Is this correct?
2. Because of 1 this is why I want to remove the heater and again just run something for demist only and I can do this in T&C correct?

So it might be my personal desire not to have hot water from the engine bay that might dictate the class/path I go as T&C will allow it and if Schedule K or FIA Appendix K does not then T&C it will be

I removed my heater after 2 failures of the heater radiator......hot water running around on the floor was not fun and yes guess what, no new radiators avaliable and to repair was just over the top $$$$.
The antiquated system wasn't up to demisting anything so I will go to an electric bilge fan and hide it under the dash.

[nzeder]

I removed my heater after 2 failures of the heater radiator......hot water running around on the floor was not fun and yes guess what, no new radiators avaliable and to repair was just over the top $$$$.
The antiquated system wasn't up to demisting anything so I will go to an electric bilge fan and hide it under the dash.Exactly my plan. I have seen guys at the track with this setup and if the bilge fan is getting the air supply from outside the car (standard vent source is my plan) then the car has a good clear screen - better than a 1960's designed hot water heater system and what I would call a "safety" upgrade so should be permitted by any rule book in my opinion.

[Allan]

I look at mods such as this heater radiator removal as having no bearing on the cars performance and therefore should be allowed. But having said that it I think it should be made clear to ALL competitors using the same car that the mod is permitted thereby stopping those who would try and do it correctly from sending large dollars after the problem.

[John McKechnie]

Oldfart- never give up your principles and beliefs. Many more of us feel the same, and views need constant airing.
Unfortunately motor racing is all about pushing boundaries.

[nzeder]

I know this much.

Weather I go down the K car path (if the mods already done before I purchased the car ie pedal box and strut to strut cage are ok under K) or the T&C path the car will be to the rules and will stay that way.

I have a better understanding of the rules having read and re-read them time and time again. FIA Appendix K is longer and is much harder to get your head around - and at first seems overwhelming. I think MSNZ Schedule K and T&C rules are much easier to understand and therefore built to.

So you summarize - this is for those who are looking to build a car or make a car conform to the rules as they are today.

FIA Appendix K is for (talking about production based cars not 1 offs or special stuff)

1. Standard Series Production Cars (saloons or Sport & GT) as homologated as such so little or non modifications from the show room floor - no movement.

2. Competition Cars (based on the cars that qualify as #1) as homologated in modified form of the period in question and group in question. Parts can be replicated if NLA but be 100% replicas/dimensional correct. ie 100% as it was.

FIA HTP cars therefore have a known config and can (does not mean they will be accepted by the event organizers) run at Historic & Classic International Meetings

The above is based on cars as homologated by the FIA in the day for an International Event - this does not cover locally build or raced cars - only those the competed in International Events - correction see my post lower down but this is from the FIA Appendix K rules.


Cars without an international competition history but which have a competition history in national championship events or other significant national events of equivalent status may also be accepted.

MSNZ Schedule K much like above however can be based on any National race series around the world - is this correct?
Again MSNZ K COD is for

1. Standard Series Production Cars same as above

2. Competition Cars (based on #1) just like the FIA Appendix K stuff but the cars can be national/local level + International level cars

A COD in K does not mean the car can run at FIA HTP Historic and Classic events internationally - if you want to play that game FIA HTP is for you.

MSNZ T&C

1. Must be based on a Series Production Car and retain the Standard Production body work - if your car does not fit this it does not fit T&C without correcting this or looking to a different Schedule maybe K as Competition Car of the day.
2. Depending on the group your car fits into - Group 1 & 2 - more engine mods, brake mods, suspesions mods, wheels free + 1" more than period is permitted - all these mods must be as period. Groups 3 & 4 - limited engine mods, only pad/fluid can change, suspension shocks free, springs free so limited mods, wheels free + 1" from standard rim.

So that is basics - you need to read the rules as this is just a summary. So have I missed anything?

[Kiwiboss]

If you can't read this E-mail me direct at dmathers@xtra.co.nz and i'll send it though, its from the latest USA Vintage motorsport magazine and is a great read.

Dale M

[Spgeti]

Thanks Dale, a very good article.
Cheers, Bruce

[nzeder]

Yes thanks for posting that up Dale - a good read for those that have not seen this before. It explains the reasoning behind the whole FIA HTP and what is involved in getting and having HTP.

Mike

I need to make a correction to my post above - I will do that now but just spotted this in the FIA Appendix K


Cars without an international competition history but which have a competition history in national championship events or other significant national events of equivalent status may also be accepted.

I guess the key words in that is "may also be accepted"

also from the FIA Appendix K

If a model has not taken part in period in international races, HTPs of corresponding cars must be submitted to the HMSC supported by evidence from the relevant ASN that the model has a history in period of competition in events of national significance.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Yes thanks for posting that up Dale - a good read for those that have not seen this before. It explains the reasoning behind the whole FIA HTP and what is involved in getting and having HTP.

Mike

I need to make a correction to my post above - I will do that now but just spotted this in the FIA Appendix K



I guess the key words in that is "may also be accepted"

also from the FIA Appendix K

So where does a new all comers race car that you may have started fit in.

[nzeder]

So where does a new all comers race car that you may have started fit in.Good question - if in "period" and as stated in the FIA Appendix K and I quote

If a model has not taken part in period in international races, HTPs of corresponding cars must be submitted to the HMSC supported by evidence from the relevant ASN that the model has a history in period of competition in events of national significance.

So if the "all comers race car" you are talking about fits the above quote and you can prove this without a doubt then it, and again I quote

Cars without an international competition history but which have a competition history in national championship events or other significant national events of equivalent status may also be accepted.

It might be accepted by the FIA for HTP - but that is up to them - so if HTP or Schedule K is something you are considering with a car (or if you think you would like to replica a car of a period etc) then I think it would be wise to check first before you even start to build/purchase a car to ensure you are not going down the road that has no ending/path to race.

[nzeder]

After all this reading of the regs MSNZ Schedule K, Schedule T&C and the FIA Appendix K and knowing that it will be a long long time before I have $$/or factory original/sports option parts to make my car FIA HTP (given it was a 1/2 complete project) so I will go T&C rules and COD as the car fits those rules better in its current state.

I hope some of the info posted does help others understand some of the differences and how important it is to read the regs before you start a fresh build etc.

[ERC]

Sadly, internationally, it therefore appears the FIA outlaws models that were NOT raced in period internationally or even nationally, even if the car is 100% period correct.

Fortunately, a CoD here would be issued for such a car and it would therefore be eligible to race in NZ, but even though period correct or even 100% standard, not overseas in an Appendix K meeting - which I find rather odd.

[nzeder]

Yes it does seem that way Ray. Under the FIA Appendix K it states if no international history but some national championship event...so not even a local clubmans meeting from back in the day counts either :( and then it MAY also be accepted that does not mean it will be, just that the FIA HTP committee may consider the application that is all :(