Is there a future for Formula Ford?

[rf84]

In one of the other threads there are posts about the future of Formula Ford. It is fairly obvious from the dwindling numbers of FFs racing that the class is in serious decline.
There have been some suggestions about a possible replacement class including using the Honda motor as used in the USA. I do not know what mods would be required to existing FF cars to fit the Honda engine or if it is even feasible. In the early 2000's when a lot of manufacturers no longer made chassis for the 1600 Kent there were attempts to fit the Kent engine to chassis designed and built for Zetec and Duratec engines. These failed as, in many cases, the modified Zetec/Duratec cars were slower than the older purpose built Kent cars. I don't know the feasability of installing Honda engines in existing FF chassis.
But one has to ask the fundamental question "should we even try"?
What is needed now more than ever in NZ motorsport is a PLAN. The obvious body to formulate and implement this plan is MSNZ as the administrators of the sport. Their failure or inability to do this has led to an ad hoc proliferation of classes providing no logical progression for aspiring racing drivers. In some cases these classes even compete with one another to attract competitors (I refer to Formula Suzuki and Formula Challenge single seaters). Europe for example has a logical progression from FF to F3 to GP2 and F1. Each class is not a quantam leap from the one preceding it to the one that follows in terms of speed. We have no such ladder at present and, if we did, one would have to consider if FF (in any guise) would fit into this ladder.
Here's the conundrum. A very successful young karter has just joined our local car club with aspirations to do well in car racing. He wants to know what class to get into to best achieve his goals. What do we tell him? Formula First (that is probably slower than his kart) then Formula Ford (where he might get to race against 6 other cars if the class is still in existence then) then Formula Toyota (a big jump in terms of speed and cost).
Or do we be brutally honest and tell him that car racing is in a state of disarray and that he would be better off sticking to karting?

[crunch]

Yes, there is a future. It's obvious that the current F/Ford series is way below par. That is not to say that the 2 or 3 front runners are not good drivers, they have talent...the problem is there is not enough of them.
Formula Toyota needs Formula Ford as a feeder class so there are more NZ'ers in the field. Only 3? this year and if there is a lean European presence one year, then we have a potential disaster.

Send me your email contact to crunch1@xtra.co.nz and I will send you the plan that I formulated 3 years ago, but unfortunately self-interested parties got in the way and it was stalled. I understand that the Chairman of the race commission has got a think-tank? together on motor racing in general in NZ, and I have been pressing him that this should be top of the list.
The American Honda engine scenario is not an option. First question is do we need a newer fleet of Formula Fords or "dress up the older ones" (much like the NZ Govt did to the Skyhawks). The new Formula Ford Eco boost cars in Europe are the bees knees and very cost effective (50K NZ) but still a lot of money and we need to give a lead in time or notice period to the current cars. Of course the current fleet (or whats left of it) needs to be catered for at some level...

[Carlo]

Whilst attending the WRC Rally in Spain in 2011 I was introduced to the new manager of Ford Motorsport, obviously the changes in the world economic scene has put many plans on hold, but he did tell me that they were looking at a total revamp of Formula Ford world wide bringing the cars back to a more simple chassis that did not need a F1 engineer to get the best out of it and a control engine that they would supply, the engine to be good for a minimum of three seasons and would be leased from Ford. The thoughts that he expressed to me were quite enlightening and it was very clear that he wanted FF to go back to what is used to be say during the 1980s but with a more modern engine and I would like to think that this plan has only been shelved and not consigned to the rubbish tin. For sure he was adamant that there needed to be a stepping stone between Karts and something like Formula Renault or Formula Toyota where young driver could learn to engineer cars as well as drive them

[Racer Rog]

Just to put you on a spot Crunch, Why is the Honda engine not a option, its very cost effective, more so than a Kent engine, and it has the WOW factor that appeals to the younger generation, a replacement engine does not have to be Ford, they stopped supporting FF years ago, in fact, that they now make new kent blocks, is due to fact that they were shamed into it by Honda supplying engines for the class in the States, where they now call the class Formula F ( Honda Fit motor).
Roger

[crunch]

Commercially if we want support from the Ford motor company, we need to stick to a Ford product. That is where the new F/Ford series that I have mentioned and Carlo spoke about fits.

[Russ Noble]

In my opinion the primary problem is not with the cars, it is with the fact that there is not a decent North Island FF series where the young guns can get relevant competitive racing and seat time before embarking on the National Championship.

Also there are not that many young guns coming through each year so the rest of field has to be filled with enthusiasts who will race for their enjoyment, year in year out. These guys can still provide good racing amongst themselves, even if they are not competitive with the front runners. All too often the also-rans are overlooked in the Championship focus and only belatedly given enticements to compete to swell the fields at the eleventh hour. That needs to change. And a means also needs to be found to instigate a series similar to SIFF in the North Island. However this probably needs to be driven by potential competitors rather than dictated by edict from the top. The question is where to race, without races you won't get competitors, and without competitors you wont get races!

There is a good historic series going in the NI. I wonder whether modern FFs could run in that, but maybe off the back of the grid, on 30sec delay for instance, until their numbers build sufficiently to warrant their own races?

There may be practical reasons why none of this can happen but I'm sure someone will quickly tell me.....

Edit. And talking about also-rans, the racing at that level can still be close and competitive and the costs are very reasonable. But they need a local NIFF series to compete in to make owning a car worthwhile. IMO

[Russ Noble]

Commercially if we want support from the Ford motor company, we need to stick to a Ford product. That is where the new F/Ford series that I have mentioned and Carlo spoke about fits.

What about support from Honda then?

[crunch]

The other point to consider regarding the Honda thing, is do we want to instigate yet another cost on all the current cars by having to change engines when they now finally have a Kent product that works well and lasts well (unless you over-rev on a bad gear change)

[Grant Ellwood]

Perhaps Toyota could come up with with a FF style car (Toyota Lites?) to support the progression to TRS. Could create an opportunity for up and comers from karting overseas to tag along with their TRS compatriots and race in a healthy Kiwi series.
The existing FFs would find a place in historic racing eventually.

[Powder]

Perhaps Toyota could come up with with a FF style car (Toyota Lites?) to support the progression to TRS. Could create an opportunity for up and comers from karting overseas to tag along with their TRS compatriots and race in a healthy Kiwi series.
The existing FFs would find a place in historic racing eventually.

I think there's already provision within the Toyota Race Series to run a 'lite' car. Same chassis but with detuned engine. Mitch Evans ran a car with that spec 2-3 years ago, but no one ran a 'lite' car this season.

The decision on the future of the TRS is apparently imminent according to this article:
http://www.speedcafe.co.nz/2013/02/11/toyota-to-decide-on-another-long-term-commitment-to-trs-class/

So, there could be a number of Tatuus chassis' going cheap in the near future.

Edit: More info on TRS Lites here:
http://www.toyotaracing.co.nz/trs-launches-lites

[ERC]

Which raises the question. Given that FF has been a leading class around the world for over 40 years, why are so few running in historic FF now? I would have thought that of all the current historic classes, this should be the largest group by far.

I think that the last thing we need is another single seater class.

[Dave Silcock]

I agree, Although I am suprised that they are not more popular with the historic racer. They must be cheap to run at that level, and I'm told they are fun to drive, but man are they boring to watch, no noise, no revs and not many of them look good. Perhaps they are just not cool!

[rf84]

ERC. There were 37 Historic FF cars entered for the Denny Hulme Festival which would make it by far the biggest class behind the BMW's. There are also some running with the current FF's at Taupo to make up the numbers.

[ERC]

The festival is a one off event. The normal turnout at a classic meeting is under 20. TACCOC - October 6th 2012 - a programme I just happen to have on my desk:

(ERC) AES/TRADEZONE - 26
(ERC) ARROW WHEELS - 20
HISTORICS - 11
MG SERIES - 14

HISTORIC FF - 11

You will note that this is only a one day club meeting but we managed 46 ERC cars.

As I said, there must be more FFs around than that over a continuous 40 year period? So where are they or why aren't they on the track? Of all the single seater classes around, they have to be the best value for money and at the historic level, relatively cheap to run.

I can understand someone not running a FJ in case they damaged it, as generally, they are probably worth more and scarcer than a FF.

I tend to agree with Dave, as they are not a class I usually watch either, but as club events are about drivers rather than spectators, spectator appeal is not an issue.

[Oldfart]

As I said, there must be more FFs around than that over a continuous 40 year period? So where are they or why aren't they on the track? Of all the single seater classes around, they have to be the best value for money and at the historic level, relatively cheap to run.



Probably because most of them should have had drivers competing as Stock car drivers, and they have been bent. Even some of the guys running in the historics seem to think that knocking each others' corners off is the name of the game. I was standing beside Dave Oxton at the McLaren meeting and his comment was that if guys had driven like that in his day, most of them would have been dead.

[rf84]

The responses to this Thread so far just add weight to my argument about the ad hoc development of classes. Given the opportunity Racer Rog and Russ would go race Honda powered cars, Carlo would go buy one of his beaut Ecotec cars and start up a class for those and ERC would have us all in ERC cars (whatever they are). So we would now have 5 classes of FF's where now there are 2 (the current FF's+ Historic FF's). But we would not have 5 times as many competitors. So this is why we desperately need a PLAN.

[Grant Ellwood]

Which raises the question. Given that FF has been a leading class around the world for over 40 years, why are so few running in historic FF now? I would have thought that of all the current historic classes, this should be the largest group by far.

I think that the last thing we need is another single seater class.

Doesn't Historic FF have their own series? I receive their newsletters and the races they organise seem to be well supported. Maybe they don't/can't spend the money to race in other events outside of their own series. Michael Clark, help!

[ERC]

Given the opportunity Racer Rog and Russ would go race Honda powered cars, Carlo would go buy one of his beaut Ecotec cars and start up a class for those and ERC would have us all in ERC cars (whatever they are). So we would now have 5 classes of FF's where now there are 2 (the current FF's+ Historic FF's). But we would not have 5 times as many competitors. So this is why we desperately need a PLAN.

I suggest you find out what the ERC cars are! You obviously don't know... They are not single seaters and just for the record, I want to see full grids, even if it means a class structure within. I presume that running historic FF at a tier 1 meeting to boost numbers is by classes? A great move and way overdue.

I would be ecstatic if we had full grids for all races. What the mix is within that grid (within reason) is secondary. Almost from the Brookland's days, every race grid was by classes, unless there were enough to fill a grid within one class. FJ even in NZ manage perfectly well with their structure, where there is a considerable mix.

It still doesn't really answer the question why overall, there are so few FFs racing when they have both a modern and an historic platform and a worldwide history. From that perspective, it is probably the most successful race group anywhere in the world - ever.

Oldfart's quote from David Oxton is a possible clue? Especially as this Festival is heavily promoted as one where it is "all about the cars" and Jim Barclay's driver's briefing always emphasises that aspect of the festival.

[CUSTAXIE50]

Like most things in life the time does come to move on,to me ff has had its day as they sit today.

[rf84]

Looking at the "Mylaps" website I see there are 5 current FF cars and 10 Historic FF cars competing at Taupo this weekend. In qualifying the fastest Historic FF was a few fractions of a second slower than the slowest 'modern' (Ken Smith). Overall there is nearly 10 secs a lap difference between the fastest and slowest cars.

[Steve Holmes]

Whilst attending the WRC Rally in Spain in 2011 I was introduced to the new manager of Ford Motorsport, obviously the changes in the world economic scene has put many plans on hold, but he did tell me that they were looking at a total revamp of Formula Ford world wide bringing the cars back to a more simple chassis that did not need a F1 engineer to get the best out of it and a control engine that they would supply, the engine to be good for a minimum of three seasons and would be leased from Ford. The thoughts that he expressed to me were quite enlightening and it was very clear that he wanted FF to go back to what is used to be say during the 1980s but with a more modern engine and I would like to think that this plan has only been shelved and not consigned to the rubbish tin. For sure he was adamant that there needed to be a stepping stone between Karts and something like Formula Renault or Formula Toyota where young driver could learn to engineer cars as well as drive them

Although this site is supposed to be about motorsport history and historic motor racing, I feel compelled to let this thread run, because in many ways, FF has such an important and significant history, its that very history that makes it such an important stepping stone for young drivers, to achieve what the hero's of the past have also achieved. To win an FF championship is significant, on a world scale, and is instantly recognised everywhere.

I like what you've suggested here Carlo. Although it might be tempting to try another engine package based on the old FF principles, I feel that to do so would give the feeling of it being a brand new category, rather than reviving/restoring/boosting an existing category that has such a rich and important history. When I hear of a new category being introduced, it somehow always feels temporary, because so many categories come and go, nothing ever seems to stick around for very long. They arrive with a hiss and a roar, plenty of razzamatazz, with manufacturer backing, big fields and real cut and thrust racing, then over the next 3-4 years fizzle away to nothing.

At least FF has 40 years of history behind it that somehow gives a feeling of reassurance that a modern revamped version would be around for the long term.

Its the lists of drivers, current and past that have gone on to much greater things that makes FF so important.

[Russ Noble]

Given the opportunity Racer Rog and Russ would go race Honda powered cars, Carlo would go buy one of his beaut Ecotec cars and start up a class for those and ERC would have us all in ERC cars (whatever they are). So we would now have 5 classes of FF's where now there are 2 (the current FF's+ Historic FF's). But we would not have 5 times as many competitors. So this is why we desperately need a PLAN.

Ummm, no, I never actually said that, but I agree with your point

I have expanded my thoughts on the NZFF. Some may choose to disagree….

With regard to crunch’s report, the MSNZ final recommendations to the executive were fine as far as they went. They were recommendations mainly for immediate cost limitations in the formula and they seem to have been implemented, and that is good. However there is nothing in that to address the real issues facing FF.

Their recommendations concluded by stating.

• As soon as these points are communicated and set in motion, then the rest of the many recommendations in the previous draft documents can be considered.

From my perspective there doesn’t seem to have been much that has happened since. Maybe behind the scenes? Although crunch has stated that this had stalled. It would be enlightening to know in detail the reasons why......

Some of the rest of the recommendations that the report of the FF Focus group identified, amongst other things and slightly paraphrased:-

FF must attract long term, “journeyman” competitors and make FF a destination as opposed to a stop off point

That MSNZ and TRS management jointly investigate the possibility of an “incentives scheme” for the winner(s) of the NZFF Championship
Which may even be an incentive for some of the younger competitors to stay within the class to hone their skills for another year
This could be in the form of a free engine lease for the coming season. (I presume they mean for TRS)

That’s all well and good and no one could argue with any of that and it would be good to see that implemented.

BUT everything in the documents looks only at the championship itself. The focus needs to be widened to consider the underlying factors that affect participation in the championship. Particularly with respect to long term competitors.

The major issue facing FF, is that FF must attract long term competitors.

This was identified by the Focus Group although they didn’t state it was the major issue. That is my take on it. There are other issues, but that of long term competitors is the major one IMO.
Due to the cost involved crossing the Strait and the distances involved, the majority of long time competitors are only likely to do the Championship races in their own island. Say three meetings. Not much incentive to own or race a car!

If FF is to remain viable nationally, a NIFF series is needed.

There needs to be a ”feeder” into the NZFF in the form of a NI regional championship to engender enthusiasm and promote the class at the “journeyman” level, similar to the SIFF.

If we look at SIFF, it is a regional championship currently over six rounds where locals can get competitive seat time and feed into the NZFF. If it wasn’t for South Island entrants, where would the current NZFF championship be? Teretonga and Levels had only one NI entrant. Manfield, HD and Taupo, 4 SI entrants, all front runners. Where would Taupo have been without the historic Fords?

The SIFF Championship is viewed seriously by those competing in it and it is interesting that two of the three top runners in NZFF in the time between HD and Taupo chose to bring their cars home, change out their championship motors for their spare ones to compete in the SIFF Levels round last weekend. Then change them back again. They’ve got the Taupo Tier 1 final this weekend and the SIFF final at Ruapuna next weekend.

Quite frankly in the SI we could be quite insular, we have a six round SI series. It is a grass roots series run “by the competitors, for the competitors” with no MSNZ organisational involvement, although our regs align with Sch. F. Despite recent lows, grid numbers are now showing signs of resurgence. So far this season we have had double digit grids at all meetings, despite the attrition caused by cars not present due to damage and other disasters. I am optimistic enough to believe next season will build on this and continue the upswing.

Personally, I would like to see the NZFF rounds in the SI also be incorporated by SIFF as part of the SIFF championship which would presumably boost NZFF grids as has happened in the past. This would then make the SIFF an 8 or 9 round series. However there may be some resistance to that idea from other competitors, some of whom may view multi day meetings as overly onerous financially and time wise. All the SIFF rounds are one day events, usually Sunday.

A change away from the Kent engine would be a retrograde step.

IMO at the present time. Many of the “journeymen” competitors for instance would probably be very hesitant about leasing engines from Ford or anyone. Also whilst the Honda may be a good thing in itself, the Kent engine is established and it is possible that if the Honda, or any other engine was adopted by NZFF that SIFF would stay with the Kent, as the existing formula works well for our series.

That would of course have a significant flow on effect to NZFF. It is a fact that SIFF is a stand alone series and doesn’t actually need MSNZ or NZFF. Indeed, if anything, the reverse is true. It follows therefore that MSNZ and NZFF need a regional NIFF series from which to also draw competitors.

So in answer to the question in the subject of this thread. Yes there is a future for FF provided a feeder regional NI series can be established. But this will only happen if there is a combined will amongst car owners and drivers and clubs/promoters to make it happen IMHO.

The question then becomes how, and what is the best way this can be achieved?

[rf84]

Whilst reviving the FF class by introducing newer Ford engines appears to be a solution it may well make matters worse. FF started in the UK in 1967 and the Kent motor was used for over 30 years. Since it was replaced there have been 3 Ford engines-the Zetec, Duratec and the Ecotec. The cost of changing motors and chassis every 3-5 years would be enormous compared to maintaining an old FF1600 (Kent) car.
There is a thriving Historic FF class in NZ. I have raced with them and it is a good class. I recently rebuilt my motor and installed a brand new clutch. I had no difficulty getting parts and the cost was just a shade under $1500.
The problem as I said previously is the lack of new FF1600 Kent chassis.

[Wal Will]

My two Bobs worth - because I am fond of motor racing, and we have to be looking after the entry level. I write this not as a solution, but hopefully to add to the debate
It was mentioned early in this thread that there is a need for a ‘feeder class’ from go-karts into Motor racing, with Formula Ford for a long time filling that roll.
Was also mentioned that ‘vested interest’ made Formula Ford too expensive for most Dads – and let’s face it they are still the ones funding their kids racing at this level.
I see one of the expenses of Formula Ford being the fact that there are motors that are definitely better than others. Even amongst Teams, they have one or two that are constantly fast (yet legal), they have been give names and are spoken of in awe, and if you want your child to have one of these few – then you pay.
Meanwhile motor legality amongst Historic Formula Fords has become a joke, with straight line handling, accepted as a means to compensate for lesser driver skills. (You can huff and puff over that sentence if you like, but trust me I know it is true.)
I would welcome Ford supplying a ‘Modern’ alternative controlled motor, which was sealed and let’s say in an ideal world serviced only by college students. A 1000c.c. modern motor would put out more power than a Kent, rev higher, and hopefully make a better noise.
As has been said the historic cars could still retain the Kent – if they wished to do so,
So many times people start yet another class of racing in an attempt to fill a role.
To use an example Star Cars were built in New Zealand to try and create a cheap competitive form of racing, but they were not in line with the Australian Auscars, or the American Legends, all using the same design build principals (motor cycle engine/gearbox, strict controls) but all different enough that they cannot cross the water and race against each other.
It would be great to see Australia and New Zealand getting together and having a chassis/tub built to a cost and safety standard, and an engine supplier (and I for one am not against motorcycle components) signed up. I think T.R.S. has been great in the fact that it has levelled the playing field.
Go-kart kid’s dads often are not interested in the machinery, but by the time they are ready to leave Karting , most if not all of the kids will have had Data readouts on their steering wheels and have learned a lot about what it takes to make a Kart handle. I would be conceivable that the new cars might have a locked differential and some of the variables that make a kart work – track width, caster change - for example.
I will follow this thread with interest.

[Racer Rog]

The Kent engine is still run in the States, along with the Honda, the Honda has a restrictor plate in the inlet manifold, limiting the power to that of a top tune Kent, The SCCA put a proposal to Ford for a modern engine, this was turned down, and it was only after Honda came onboard with the Fit engine ( which we have here in every wreckers yard) that they went ahead and came out with a new block casting, that reall has been the extent of their involvement, Ford in New Zealand stopped supporting FF years ago, you used to get discounted parts, but that is a distant memory now.
The Honda engine has been adapted to many makes of chassis HPD have all the information on this, and many have done it themselves, as far as chassis goes, again you have to look to the States for any new development here, as there is more FF racing there than anywhere else, and Radon have put out a new chassis, which is quite clever.
To get a interest in FF of Formula F as they call it in the US, you have to look at what the youth of today are looking at, you don't see so called boy racers running Ford Cortina's or Anglia's around the streets, that was done by all the old farts here, they are not into Webbers, but fuel injection, and when even the most humble of a boy racer's car puts out 140 odd HP, the appeal just isn't there any more, not saying that the skill in driving is in any way diminished, and there is a great deal of skill involved in keeping an old Kent engined FF between the lines on a track, as those of us who have and still race them know, its not what the young driver of today wants/understands, hell I for the life of don't understand drifting, and many here would go along with me on that one, its not the quickest way to go around a corner, but see just how many young guys and the odd lady, go to watch or take part, there would be more competing the that form of motorsport than race in FF, so who is right, 8 to 10 cars in a National grid ? who's fooling who here?
Roger

[Wal Will]

Roger I have raced 3 separate Formula Fords over the last few years (all borrowed) and thoroughly enjoyed them all. I used to be one of those people who thought they were boring and a joke to watch but not any more. The big field at Hampton Downs had good dices going on all the way down through the race order.
If there was a way to regulate the Honda transplant so that we once again had some parity I would happily do that to the one that I buy, and race under Formula F.

[Michael Clark]

The FF races at Taupo over the weekend were great - none better than the last race where Leitch, Munro, Alexander and Collins were all over one another and young Kim Crocker was not far behind - with Kenny in there too.

Based on yesterday, the quality is certainly there but sadly not the quantity - there were more of our Old Fart FFs in the field than the moderns - but they weren't disgraced and no one was lapped. What you don't see much of - in either Tier 1 or our historic stuff, are Ford stickers on cars.

It has been said before - why would Ford need to put any money into a category that carries its name and,as a result, they get the publicity for free. If an engine could be dropped into an existing Tier 1 type chassis (with a minimum of fuss) and be provided on really friendly terms because the manufacturer behind that engine really wanted to use a junior category to promote their products, then the day of the Kent in Tier 1 would come to an end.

I just wonder how likely that is.

[Habu]

Ok, I've had a quick read through this thread, and will add my 5 cents worth.....

I love motorsport, and despite the emaciated Formula Ford class that is currently being run, still believe like everyone else here that its a fundamentally great class. So why havent I decided to pursue it with my 17 year old son?

Pretty simple really, its cost. The idea of supporting / funding an engine builders retirement fund by way of 40 year old Cortina engines just doesnt really entice me into the class. C'mon Motorsport NZ (or whatever its called nowadays), more modern interpretations of a suitable engine have been available for many years. 70k for a modernish car, with old mechanicals is hardly "enrty level" single seater racing. I've spoken to several parents whose kids raced a season or two in F/F, and surprisingly the majority of them said it was financial suicide. I know we could have looked at Formula First / Vee, but more experienced racers I spoke to suggested that if one was serious about single seater racing, that it was better to side step this class in favour of a "real" single seater.....

Instead we decided to purchase a KZ2 class kart. Its power to weight ratio is impressive, its a challenge to drive, and a challenge for Dad.

[Michael Clark]

I watched all the Formula First races at Taupo over the weekend - great racing! I know the category is much maligned and a lot of fans have used the F Vee race over the years as the time for a hot dog, but I can rarely recall a dull race.

Sexy they are not - "real" racing cars? - I know what you mean..but the front cars at least look a far cry from the dumpy little things that would have turned a number of people off.

[jim short]

Add to the above in the last five years three of the drivers are now racing overseas all with a very bright looking future.

[crunch]

Ok, I've had a quick read through this thread, and will add my 5 cents worth.....

I love motorsport, and despite the emaciated Formula Ford class that is currently being run, still believe like everyone else here that its a fundamentally great class. So why havent I decided to pursue it with my 17 year old son?

Pretty simple really, its cost. The idea of supporting / funding an engine builders retirement fund by way of 40 year old Cortina engines just doesnt really entice me into the class. C'mon Motorsport NZ (or whatever its called nowadays), more modern interpretations of a suitable engine have been available for many years. 70k for a modernish car, with old mechanicals is hardly "enrty level" single seater racing. I've spoken to several parents whose kids raced a season or two in F/F, and surprisingly the majority of them said it was financial suicide. I know we could have looked at Formula First / Vee, but more experienced racers I spoke to suggested that if one was serious about single seater racing, that it was better to side step this class in favour of a "real" single seater.....

Instead we decided to purchase a KZ2 class kart. Its power to weight ratio is impressive, its a challenge to drive, and a challenge for Dad.

Hi Habu
I fear that you may have been misinformed regarding the costs of Formula Ford. A lot of misinformation has circulated regarding $$$ required for quite a few years.
You can buy a current championship car complete for around the 30K mark, not 70K as you have been told. Although the Kent engine has 40 years of history behind it; the current ones are not "old" and are very reliable as long as the driver doesnt cock-up a downshift and over-rev. You should be able to do the whole season without pulling apart any of the engine with the current regulations.

The new spec F/Ford that I would like to see introduced to NZ over a phase in period is 35K pounds and the engine/gearbox is sealed by Ford. In two years time these cars will be secondhand and around the $30-40K NZ mark.

[ERC]

Over the years, my concentration and interest in sporting cars has shifted somewhat. When the only single seaters on a 1959 (UK) club or national race programme were in the libre class, the majority of the programme was really sports cars. Then saloon cars rose dramatically in popularity, Formual Junior was introduced as a stepping stone to F1, then later, FF.

Remember that from 1961 - 1965, F1 was only 1500cc! FF 1600cc to F1 wasn't really such a dramatic step.

Over the last 45 years we have seen F1 move from cars we'd all like to have a go in, to missiles generating G forces that only super fit and strong guys (and gals) can cope with.

We went from "wow, a real race car!" to ho-hum, as most single seaters seem to be like computer designed popular cars without any character in looks. That early attention and interest has gradually shifted to watching or running cars with a bit more character.

FF is still an ideal stepping stone to greater things, but it is no longer THE stepping stone. Now, it may be Karts -> FF -> TRS in NZ then off to any of the European single seater formulae.

Single seater racing was always the real pinnacle, particularly F1, but the huge costs and all the various options to get to the top, have made it far less attractive somehow. Taxi racing gets more column inches than any single seater class.

Affordability is still an issue by the sounds of it and the perceptions also appear to be varied!

FF needs to survive in as close to its current form as possible. As before, classes within a decent sized grid are far more attractive to outsiders. Most spectators are just not too worried about what is under the engine cowl.

[jim short]

Why are they paying $12000, in Ausie for a Ford motor thats good for 3years without touching????

[928]

because they are STUPID no kent engine is worth that only three years I can buy escorts here that are 40 years old for $3-4 k could make a fortune from aussies pulling the engines and shipping them over run in. they must be dumb

[jim short]

I am not sure who is stupid, the $12,000, BRAND new a Focus?? or simila is brought by the FF club 5 at atime checked out all the same then sealed in a plastic cover .

[Habu]

Hi Habu
I fear that you may have been misinformed regarding the costs of Formula Ford. A lot of misinformation has circulated regarding $$$ required for quite a few years.
You can buy a current championship car complete for around the 30K mark, not 70K as you have been told. Although the Kent engine has 40 years of history behind it; the current ones are not "old" and are very reliable as long as the driver doesnt cock-up a downshift and over-rev. You should be able to do the whole season without pulling apart any of the engine with the current regulations.

The new spec F/Ford that I would like to see introduced to NZ over a phase in period is 35K pounds and the engine/gearbox is sealed by Ford. In two years time these cars will be secondhand and around the $30-40K NZ mark.

Hi Crunch,

Ok, possibly a little optimistic in my pricing, but a competitive car I would ascertain is going to cost between $30-60k. The Kent engine is brown bread, and as you have indicated, an over rev with a novice driver see's an unhappy Dad, a sorry kid, and a box of bits ready for the engine builder of your choice. The quality of racing in either the First or Ford class at the pointy end of the field, I would never dispute - its great racing.

I'd be keen to see what MSNZ thinks it costs to run a competitive car per meeting, comparative to the figures I've heard banded around.
Its just a shame that the cost to have an endorsed replacement will take a few years to implement. I imagine that like a lot of motorsports around the world, our governing body here is both trying to attract new blood, and satisfy and retain its existing participants.....

[Russ Noble]

The new spec F/Ford that I would like to see introduced to NZ over a phase in period is 35K pounds and the engine/gearbox is sealed by Ford. In two years time these cars will be secondhand and around the $30-40K NZ mark.

Do you mean the Ecoboost 200? Approx 200 bhp, 6 speed sequential, wings and slicks. spaceframe car?

Doesn't TRS only have about 220 bhp? Maybe cheaper than TRS but don't you think young kids in a hurry with money, would skip this and go straight to TRS since the spec is not that dissimilar? Since thats where they are headed anyway.... And lets face it, you've got to have money to be a young kid successful in motor racing, Frankly I see this as too far removed from the original FF concept to be a logical replacement.



Although the Kent engine has 40 years of history behind it; the current ones are not "old" and are very reliable as long as the driver doesnt cock-up a downshift and over-rev. You should be able to do the whole season without pulling apart any of the engine with the current regulations.

And I can testify that even after half a dozen times cocking up the UP shift (ie flat shifting from 2nd then get 1st when looking for 3rd), massive over revs and it still hangs together. I have now redone the linkages, that has the potential to be the cheaper option! The Kent engine is pretty bulletproof all round. I think wacking the flywheel on the ripple strips probably leads to more broken cranks than a few over revs. I think any motor would be susceptible to that.

OK. So suddenly we wind up with a handful of Ecoboosts here as the new class. What will that change, other than all the existing cars have instantly become redundant?

I know, as Wally has commented, that there are "pet" named motors in FF that if you want to be a front runner you have to buy or lease. Its solid dollars but compared to the costs they are going to incur in subsequent years as they move into other formula, it's peanuts. Thats the way it is, money talks. The type of guys that spend that sort of money will always be there, passing through. The average long term midfield runner with his $5000 motor that he can build and rebuild himself at minimal cost can still have good close racing with other guys who are doing the same thing.

The point is, they need to have somewhere to do it and in the NI other than the three national rounds, there is nowhere. In my opinion that is the biggest threat to the future of FF. Not whether we retain the Kent engine, or go to a Honda Fit or go Ecoboost 200.

[ERC]

Given that Historic FF joined the moderns at Taupo, so what is stopping the moderns from joining the Historics at HRC or TACCOC meetings? They don't have to be championship events. Or do they have to pay a (higher) sanctioned series race entry fee at a classic meeting? Just a thought.

[Carlo]

There are a couple of things that to me have stood out in this discusion so far. The first is Russ,s point about the lack of events in the North Island, as father used to say, "if you don't get your line wet you won't catch a fish" so there needs to be races held to encourage participation.
The second is that there are so many comments about variety to what was a pretty simple formula world wide and this is what I was informed concerned Ford Motorsport. This is why they would like to go back to the future and have a Formula Ford that was recognised everywhere in the world and could be raced in any country without change. They don't want US rules and UK rules and NZ rules etc, they want one set of regulations and specifications world wide and frankly, if they don't have that then why should they bother being involved.
I was impressed by the knowledge of they displayed about our NZ FF history, of it's people and of their succeses in other classes of motorsport, I was impressed that they saw themselves as a step on the way and not as a destination. I was impressed that they saw FF in it's true light as something akin to a junior formula where one could learn true race craft and basic race engineering skills

[crunch]

Do you mean the Ecoboost 200? Approx 200 bhp, 6 speed sequential, wings and slicks. spaceframe car?

Doesn't TRS only have about 220 bhp? Maybe cheaper than TRS but don't you think young kids in a hurry with money, would skip this and go straight to TRS since the spec is not that dissimilar? Since thats where they are headed anyway.... And lets face it, you've got to have money to be a young kid successful in motor racing, Frankly I see this as too far removed from the original FF concept to be a logical replacement.




And I can testify that even after half a dozen times cocking up the UP shift (ie flat shifting from 2nd then get 1st when looking for 3rd), massive over revs and it still hangs together. I have now redone the linkages, that has the potential to be the cheaper option! The Kent engine is pretty bulletproof all round. I think wacking the flywheel on the ripple strips probably leads to more broken cranks than a few over revs. I think any motor would be susceptible to that.

OK. So suddenly we wind up with a handful of Ecoboosts here as the new class. What will that change, other than all the existing cars have instantly become redundant?

I know, as Wally has commented, that there are "pet" named motors in FF that if you want to be a front runner you have to buy or lease. Its solid dollars but compared to the costs they are going to incur in subsequent years as they move into other formula, it's peanuts. Thats the way it is, money talks. The type of guys that spend that sort of money will always be there, passing through. The average long term midfield runner with his $5000 motor that he can build and rebuild himself at minimal cost can still have good close racing with other guys who are doing the same thing.

The point is, they need to have somewhere to do it and in the NI other than the three national rounds, there is nowhere. In my opinion that is the biggest threat to the future of FF. Not whether we retain the Kent engine, or go to a Honda Fit or go Ecoboost 200.

All good points

[Michael Clark]

I see the FIA is launching Formula 4 - a category to sit between karts and F3, in other words about where FF1600, FF2000, Formula Renault, Vauxhall Lotus et al once sat.

It would be good to hear from some of the guys who have done FF for years, either as drivers or engine builders etc, to find out just why (and when) the budgets sky rocketed because I don't believe it was always this way.

[rf84]

Michael. The answer to your "why" question is a phenomenon called human nature or, more specifically, the competitive part of it (the part that motivates us to go racing in the first place).
The answer to the "when". Very early in the history of FF (and indeed all formulae). English engine builders used to go through the stock of cams in their local Ford dealers parts departments and select the (on average) 1 cam in 6 that was better than the others (differences in the mass production methods).
Most attempts to create "cheap" formula do so by using very tight regulations. Ironically this strategy invariably fails because it creates a situation where the difference between a very good motor and an "also ran" is in the nth degree of attention to detail. This requires much time and when you are paying an engine builder TIME=MONEY.
Maybe there would be case for the opposite-no limit on engine size and/or power-8 litre V8s with any mods if you wish. BUT make them run on road going 185/70x13 radial tyres in which case there would be no point in spending megabucks getting a lot of power when the tyres are the limiting factor to the performance.

[Oldfart]

I have seen "buying" formulae work in some cases. A registered competitor can buy any other of the competing equipment at a price, and the owner must sell for that, and the completion of the competiton. ie no take it home and change stuff. It's a great dis-incentive to spend just to win as you can't hope to recover! Would it work? Who knows. Could perhaps work with the engine package having a fixed price???

[Russ Noble]

That could work, except the guys with the money would just look on it as another racing cost, and take the hit. However what about just doing a mid season woppa swappa amongst the top say six contenders. 1st place and 6th place swap motors. 2nd and 5th also, and 3rd and 4th. That could make things interesting! And also remove the incentive to have a trick shit motor if someone else is going to have it for half the season.:D

[jim short]

Strange no one agrees with the Aussies ,when they have between twenty and thirty cars competing, and how hard they go all using the motor supplied by their own club an unbreakable $12,000 motor I am missing something for sure

[crunch]

Strange no one agrees with the Aussies ,when they have between twenty and thirty cars competing, and how hard they go all using the motor supplied by their own club an unbreakable $12,000 motor I am missing something for sure

The main problem I have with that Jim is they are now running an engine that is two generations old internationally. What would be the point of us moving from engine/equipment that is 3 generations old to this spec?
Either we stick with the current spec and incorparate all the suggestions here, or move to the new spec with manufacturer support?
Just my own thoughts...

[jim short]

Is the Focus that long out of date???life must be slipping away faster than I thought

[Racer Rog]

Jim you have a very good point, and I even agree with some of Crunch's reply, the engine is 2 generations old, one of the big problems for Ford, is that they don't make a "world" engine any more, the engine used in Formula F, in the States is a "world" engine, its marketed in Honda vehicles world wide, so it fills the bill on that account. The tolerances in Honda engines, is such, that no amount of "blue printing if allowed, will produce any greater power if it were allowed, these engines are standard and must remain so, they will take a lot more abuse than a Kent engine, and a test mule has been running in the States for 3 seasons now untouched, no reduction of power, now no matter how good your engine builder is, a Kent engine will not do this.
Now given all this, and with what Carl has said about Ford, this could explain a lot about Fords reasons for not supporting the Formula, personally I think their thinking is flawed, and think they have missed the bus on this, it would have been great if the class had kept up with the play when they changed the engines in the UK, but this goes back to the availability of a Ford "world" engine again, and the fact that market different engines in different markets, and thus making the engine package very expensive, which I believe was the case here in NZ, plus all the engine builders were onto a good thing, in fact when discussing this with a well know FF engine builder, who claimed the Kent engine was very cheap to run and do up, when another party in the conversation asked why he was charged $30k for his son's engine work, you could have heard a pin drop, and there was a lot of mumbling into beers after that!
So that is some of the reasons I support going to Honda, but would also support Ford, if they were able to suck it up big time, and come up with as good a package, remember win on Sunday, sell on Monday, is still true today, even if its just the T shirt.
Roger

[jim short]

Google states the Focus{not the kent} last ran in 2010 Rally,when racing FF in Aussie 4 or 5 yrs ago that mtr, was unbreakable and in some ways it would pay to do the same as our cousins,then heard a story with the new faster Toyota coming out ,the current ones can be made slower and sold off to replace the FF

[Racer Rog]

Google states the Focus{not the kent} last ran in 2010 Rally,when racing FF in Aussie 4 or 5 yrs ago that mtr, was unbreakable and in some ways it would pay to do the same as our cousins,then heard a story with the new faster Toyota coming out ,the current ones can be made slower and sold off to replace the FF
The problem here as I see it, is that then you are locked into a one make Chassis, which is very expensive to repair, and a sealed engine, there is nothing wrong with a well designed space frame chassis, and what is turned out these days is stffer than the the early monocoupe chassis and it takes away any engineering input, in terms of rebuilding your own engine etc, and therefore increasing costs. so I don't think that is the answer.
Roger

[jim short]

I agree ,but a top mtr, kent costs over $20.000 a yr, to stay in front x 3 $60,000 against $12,000 ,,No need to change the rest ,just get a cheep motor.

[crunch]

I agree ,but a top mtr, kent costs over $20.000 a yr, to stay in front x 3 $60,000 against $12,000 ,,No need to change the rest ,just get a cheep motor.

Where do you get that figure from Jim? Do you know how much the engines running this year cost to build? You do not need three engines a year.

[Russ Noble]

My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that the top guys this year leased their engines at about $3000 /meeting ie $15000 for the season and have their own motor, whatever that is worth, as a spare. As far as I am aware no one had to use their spare motor this season. Although some did swap them out for their spare motor to do some/all of the SIFF rounds.

I agree with Racer Rog's comments

[jim short]

Crunch try to understand,, the 3 is the years that the Focus will or should do,and if you really know your FF racing you would also remember my grandson won the championship recently and to spend $20,000 is not hard to do on a Kent if you want the max.

[Wal Will]

Roger, would you (or anybody) have access to a site or a person who could tell us what would be involved in the 'Honda Swap' - just so we could have on the table what costs/work would be required.
It is obviously happening elsewhere into existing cars so this sort of information should be available.
There would obviously be Kent motors released from those who choose to swap, and that would help Historic cars that wished to retain them.

[Powder]

Roger, would you (or anybody) have access to a site or a person who could tell us what would be involved in the 'Honda Swap' - just so we could have on the table what costs/work would be required.
It is obviously happening elsewhere into existing cars so this sort of information should be available.
There would obviously be Kent motors released from those who choose to swap, and that would help Historic cars that wished to retain them.

Looking at this page from just over 3 years ago, it cost US$11750 to convert a Swift DB-1. Allowing for the exchange rate and some inflation perhaps NZ$16000 might do the job today.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/05/scca-approves-honda-fit-based-engine-for-formula-f/

[jim short]

Just try to remember quite a few young Kiwis go over to Aussie and compete,Ritchie, Mitch and Martin were there the yr. I went, not that I care what hapens regarding the future motors ,but have we not seen eneough stupidity with the V8s,we now have 3 lots racing, to my old way of thinking ,providing its cheeper have the same car as the Aussies so when these young Kiwis go over they are used to the car,then again that probably makes to much sense.

[RogerH]

Here is a forum on the Formula F / Honda Fit engine : http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=123

Also this YouTube clip going through a conversion : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckBkUOKeN8Q

[Wal Will]

Thanks Roger. Good info, and gives a clearer picture of what one would be up for.

[rf84]

Since the Kent was dropped (I think in the late 90's) there have been 3 Ford motors. This means a new motor and/or chassis on average about every 5 years. This would not make for a cheap form of racing.
Re Ford's involvement, I spoke with Eric Mallard last year about the future direction of FF. He told me that Ford had been approached to support the Zetec/Duratec class a few years back but they were not at all interested.

[Racer Rog]

Yes Roger, as you can see very simple, you can buy the kit with a motor, or supply your own motor, same engine as the 1.5 litre Jazz here. hundreds in a junk yard near you all. Engines bullet proof, bodies rust quicker than lightening. Wal, HPD has the costs on their webb site, and you can access the tech regs on line through the SCCA.
Roger

[Russ Cunningham]

Some very good points have been raised for and against continuing with the outdated Kent engine. Oviously Ford NZ don't give a damn....they've milked the publicity for years at no cost so them, so my feeling is that the time has come for a major manufacturer to step into the breech and provide fully sealed engines as Toyota do in the TRS. Ford could consider this option or just go to hell!

I personally know two Formula Ford champions who openly admitted cheating to win their championships. This ain't good enough boys and another reason why many competitors can't be bothered continuing with racing FF. As for the "shock absorber" craziness! Total "$" bullshit!

"Daddy! I want to win the FF championship" All you have to do is provide me with the best engineer available and I'll do the rest.

"Okay son"

CRAP! and counter productive to promoting the best driver.

[Horizon]

I have been watching with interest and i'll throw in my 2 cents.
I raced FF championship for 2 seasons (mid pack runner) during the earily 90's. Both years , The budget was around 25k. This included leasing a car and leasing an engine from GLC and to run a car for a season. I got an awful lot of help from the people involved with Historics at the time. A good friend took the summer from his paying job and Mum/Dad (Bev/Ian) came to every race. Even The trailer was loaned to us.
In the second year, the engine was out for a refresh after every 3rd meeting.
What we did not have, and nor do I think it should be allowed in a "starter" class is a digital dash with data acc. and radios . we also did not have a carb with all the trick stuff in it.
As for current costs, A new FF kent with Iron head was supplied by Loynings engine service last year for US$8500 carbs to tilton Clutch at 114BHP.
New Kent parts (block/crank/rods/pistions /carbs are available from Pegusas Auto racing. Jay Ivey (Ivey Engines) has the new alloy Cylinder heads for about 2500 complete .

Perhaps those in Wellington could invest in the future of NZ open wheel racing....lease the new spec alloy heads with a NZ built EFI and NZ (link ?) sealed ECU ? Also go to a spec shock also.....my 2 cents

Tony Garmey

[Michael Clark]

Raymond - have MotorSport NZ been talking to Toyota about Formula Ford? Could they be interested in extending the staircase of talent? - Toyota are heavily involved, and thanks be for that, but how would they feel if a Honda or Hyundai or whatever wanted to really invest in a replacement for F.Ford?

[ERC]

What we did not have, and nor do I think it should be allowed in a "starter" class is a digital dash with data acc. and radios.
Totally agree. What FF has to do to be a first single seater experience, is make it easier for the family teams to get started without having to shell out for too many "extras". The real driving talent is then easier to spot.

The same then applies later in life when the baby boomers head for the historic grids just to enjoy themselves. They don't need those extras either - but it is surprising how many tripods are lined up trackside in some classes!

[Michael Clark]

Also agree with Ray and Tony - good points.

[Russ Noble]

Totally agree. What FF has to do to be a first single seater experience, is make it easier for the family teams to get started without having to shell out for too many "extras". The real driving talent is then easier to spot.

Totally agree with that.

With regard to engines whilst MSNZ should probably be putting out feelers to manufacturers about replacement engines in the longer term. It is a fact that FF world wide is in a state of flux at present with no international consistency. We have Ecoboost in the UK, Honda Fit in the US, and the old Fiesta engine in Oz. And Toyota as far as I am aware nowhere.

Personally whilst I think it makes good sense to align with Australia, they are running old engines. Honda in the US has got right behind this one and I think that is the best option. It is a new engine and they have said they will maintain a full parts inventory for 10 years after the motor is discontinued. $US2500 for a new engine and about $US5000 to convert it to race spec compatible with the Kent performance. This means the Kent can run competitively alongside the Honda cars and as people slowly destroy their "unreliable, expensive to maintain Kents" (not my words) they will all no doubt eventually go the Honda way.

But until we see how the international situation pans out I think it would be foolish to rush in with new engines of any sort at this time. Prepare the groundwork for it, yes, but don't jump in just yet.

Instead concentrate on providing venues for relatively low cost racing for the many existing cars owned by enthusiasts throughout the country.

[crunch]

Raymond - have MotorSport NZ been talking to Toyota about Formula Ford? Could they be interested in extending the staircase of talent? - Toyota are heavily involved, and thanks be for that, but how would they feel if a Honda or Hyundai or whatever wanted to really invest in a replacement for F.Ford?

Yes

[crunch]

Some very good points have been raised for and against continuing with the outdated Kent engine. Oviously Ford NZ don't give a damn....they've milked the publicity for years at no cost so them, so my feeling is that the time has come for a major manufacturer to step into the breech and provide fully sealed engines as Toyota do in the TRS. Ford could consider this option or just go to hell!

I personally know two Formula Ford champions who openly admitted cheating to win their championships. This ain't good enough boys and another reason why many competitors can't be bothered continuing with racing FF. As for the "shock absorber" craziness! Total "$" bullshit!

"Daddy! I want to win the FF championship" All you have to do is provide me with the best engineer available and I'll do the rest.

"Okay son"

CRAP! and counter productive to promoting the best driver.

Agree

[jim short]

The last two rounds the form. 1st have put on some real good racing ,so we dont wont to forget about them.
Going back to leasing a mtr. costs $15000, and saving your own good mtr.at the end of the season adding what your mtr. cost my guess you have a total of $30,000 invested..And as to the BS about cheats ,what the tec. officers put Ritchie through was unbelevable ,at the first round his carb had an extra screw than the rest ,they worked out it did nothing to gain any more power ,so was ok, next round was repeat ,plus between the two races on the Sun. they {Mike Clements } wished to check the wheel bearings,needing all the brakes ect to come apart, he was refused, .Then the last round it was close between Ritchie and Mitch, on the Sat. Ritchie had it in the bag by winning, only two races to go on Sun. Then on Sun. morning Ritchie disqualified ,has an extra screw that does nothing, no points and has to start at the rear,.Well what a race three times he passed Mitch around the outside of Champion down the back Mitch powered past only to have Ritchie repeat the move and draw away,.But does not say much for our tect officers

[Horizon]

The last two rounds the form. 1st have put on some real good racing ,so we dont wont to forget about them.
Going back to leasing a mtr. costs $15000, and saving your own good mtr.at the end of the season adding what your mtr. cost my guess you have a total of $30,000 invested..And as to the BS about cheats ,what the tec. officers put Ritchie through was unbelevable ,at the first round his carb had an extra screw than the rest ,they worked out it did nothing to gain any more power ,so was ok, next round was repeat ,plus between the two races on the Sun. they {Mike Clements } wished to check the wheel bearings,needing all the brakes ect to come apart, he was refused, .Then the last round it was close between Ritchie and Mitch, on the Sat. Ritchie had it in the bag by winning, only two races to go on Sun. Then on Sun. morning Ritchie disqualified ,has an extra screw that does nothing, no points and has to start at the rear,.Well what a race three times he passed Mitch around the outside of Champion down the back Mitch powered past only to have Ritchie repeat the move and draw away,.But does not say much for our tect officers

wonder where "those guys" were when I got kicked to the curb being 1.25 THOU over on valve lift..LOL

[jim short]

They normally finished up in ???? pits drinking coffie or stronger at the end of day

[Michael Clark]

Raymond - you answered yes, butto which question?

[Carlo]

wonder where "those guys" were when I got kicked to the curb being 1.25 THOU over on valve lift..LOL
Probably the same place when I was 10 seconds late to catch the interislander ferry. I was late and you exceded the permitted valve lift. In both cases it was our problem and not that of those who enforced the requirements

[crunch]

Raymond - you answered yes, butto which question?

Sorry Micheal for being unclear. Yes; MSNZ and Toyota have had ongoing discussions for over a year regarding saving F/Ford. They like mSNZ see it as essential with regards to keeping a "potential competitor pool of locals" amoungst other things. As for the second part of your post; only Toyota can/should answer that...not me.

[Howard Wood]

It has always been easier to compete in any class with a big budget and the last couple of seasons have certainly seen some kids winning with ambitious fathers who spent mega bucks. However FF still offers the chance to be reasonably competitive on a smaller budget if you are savvy and seek good advice. There are some specific areas where well thought out regulations/ restrictions would help in this regard, particularly in the shock absorber area and series supplied camshafts and intake manifolds but the basic concept is still valid and does not need major changes.

Long term there is no doubt that some replacement engine will be needed, modern "plug in" technology makes parity much easier to manage and I don't think the class owes any loyalty to Ford at all as they have put nothing in for years. However, rather than reinvent the wheel NZ is better to see Worldwide which replacement package is best and follow that. The Honda option looks promising.

Short term however, I think the reason for the small fields in the National Championship is much closer to home. Everyone knows the promotion side of MNZ has had its problems and although they are unrelated to FF, because of these issues the whole series and its calendar was uncertain until the last moment. I personally know of one potential front running competitor for whom the lack of a definite series calendar meant that he decided not to compete this year at all. No doubt he was not the only one who made this decision and MNZ need to have a series planned and dates set for next year NOW, not 6 weeks before the series begins.

[POM 48]

Howard has hit the nail on the head on all three major issues facing FF.
Talking to one of the front runners at Taupo their shock absorber package $18000 and data logger $12000. Enough said.!!!!
The Honda Fit seems to work well in the States.
Consistent, certain leadership is what MSNZ needs to display to all its members.They must remember who is "paying the piper"

[Barry]

We have just completed the latest Formula Ford season and our budget was tiny compaired to the one's everyone is referring to. If you want to go out and spend unlimited amounts then that is your option but not ours.
I don't see where the expense comes from in the Kent engine, sure it maybe expensive to build a new engine but to freshen one up to last a season is no more than $5000.00. As for the shocks we ran on the standard non adjustable Bilsteins that the car was built with, we did have them rebuilt a couple of seasons ago. Our budget for the entire season was less that the cost of the shocks and data logger on the car above. We weren't just there to fill the field up and we were unlucky not to win the championship, 1 missed gear in race 1 at Taupo was all it took as the season was that close. We didn't have paid engineers but ran our car the same as we had run our karts before, with a couple of friends helping, Included in our budget was travel and accomodation.
I do aggree that the seasons calander needs to be out early to make it easier to plan ahead.
Last season the South Island competitors had 2 trips to the North Is

[jim short]

Barry you are very lucky that you can do it all yourselve,most others cant and someone has to keep the engine builders happy

[Wal Will]

And Brendon drove well, you must be pleased.

[Barry]

And Brendon drove well, you must be pleased.

Brendon did drive very well and yes we are really pleased.
This still doesn't explain why we were able to do it with standard shocks and a $5000.00 rebuild on the engine.
When you buy a car you usually get at least 1 engine and arebuild should make it good for a season.
Other people in the field were running their own cars just like us and they also did very well.

[Barry]

Brendon did drive well and we are very pleased.
That still doesn't explain the standard shocks and the $5000.00 engine.
Maybe people are using the wrong engine builders.
Formula Ford doesn't have to break the bank as we have proved.
Some of the other competitors also ran their own cars and very successfully as well.

[jim short]

Yes hard to believe, I am wrong with the cost,,its pos to buy a race mtr, $15___25{way over the top } but pos or prob.. to get a real good one 5000 a yr. to freshen it up,shocks yes can be over $10,000 ,ask Owen what he spent on two cars,Will be worth it when Mitch comes through

[Russ Noble]

,ask Owen what he spent on two cars,Will be worth it when Mitch comes through

Yes and therein lies the problem, FF is so successful as a training ground to launch a young fella on an international career that money spent is regarded as an investment in the future!

Anything that can be improved, however slightly, by having unlimited money spent on it, will be done in order to tilt the playing field in the young proteges favour. Posters have mentioned shocks, data loggers and engines as areas that require rethinking. We need to try and get back to the original concept of FF as a low cost formula.

I also agree with Howard Woods post from earlier today.

[Maino]

In my opinion the solution is a combination of options above. Stay with the Kent but introduce an TRS engine control lease scheme. Then also the control shock option, with shocks appropriate to class of car. Maintain other control items such as clutch, flywheel, inlet manifold.

Class of cars would be split 4 ways, combination of Historic and Modern to give a NZ FF Championship (with North & South Island Championship within).

Class 1 Post 1992 (Mygales/Stealth/etc); 3 way shocks lease engine compulsory. Basic data acquisition.

Class 2 1990 to 1996 (VD, Swifts); 2 way shocks lease engine optional

Class 3 1982 to 1989; Historic Class; 2 way shocks lease engine optional

Class 4; pre 1982; Historic Class; single adjustable shocks lease engine optional

Engines/shocks and other control parts provided by single provider with clear cost model to manage an appropriate margin for provider. Tyres reduced to maximum of 3 sets per session. Historic classes optional for control parts.

Championships run across Tier one and two and if required Historic/club events. Plus with FF festival each year!

Benefits of above; cost control and a more even playing field. Plus it gives a destination for young and old regardless of age of car and location.

Just my thoughts....

Brent Main

PS, I run the ex Kevin Ingram Keram in Historic championship. Shameless plug, the car is for sale on trademe. I want to move to a more modern formula ford so happy to look at trades for the magnificent Keram!

[Carlo]

One of the issues I see is that a car is only required to be 100% compliant when it is competing in the NZ Championship and even there another issue arises in that it does not have to be compliant while testing, even at a NZ Championship round. The legalities only come into effect once Official practice has started. What we have seen is cars running with 4 way adjustable shock absorbers fitted during testing and then once set up as close to perfect as they can be one of the adjuster is removed from the shock absorber and sealed off. It now becomes a 3 way adjustable shock absorber and the car is compliant once again. Money talks and if I come back to my earlier posts about back to basics as Ford Motorsport were talking about, a control shock absorber would be part of the car specifications

[jim short]

Well after some thought ,and looking back over fifty years plus ,money will never make a beter driver,a good driver will win most times in any simila car,Nuvalari proved that over and over.Mitch had good backing and why not ,he will hopefully reach the top, but Ritchie won the title,both natural drivers, Dixon strugeled for money to start and who begrudges him his success,then again I know a lot of drivers with tons of money and never in a hundred years will they be any good,.Barrys car is how they all should be,a good basic car

[Russ Noble]

Given that Historic FF joined the moderns at Taupo, so what is stopping the moderns from joining the Historics at HRC or TACCOC meetings? They don't have to be championship events. Or do they have to pay a (higher) sanctioned series race entry fee at a classic meeting? Just a thought.


The average long term midfield runner with his $5000 motor that he can build and rebuild himself at minimal cost can still have good close racing with other guys who are doing the same thing.

The point is, they need to have somewhere to do it and in the NI other than the three national rounds, there is nowhere. In my opinion that is the biggest threat to the future of FF.


In my opinion the primary problem is not with the cars, it is with the fact that there is not a decent North Island FF series where the young guns can get relevant competitive racing and seat time before embarking on the National Championship.

There is a good historic series going in the NI. I wonder whether modern FFs could run in that, but maybe off the back of the grid, on 30sec delay for instance, until their numbers build sufficiently to warrant their own races?

Just re-reading all the posts in this thread because this subject is close to my heart.

No one has addressed these points (or rather this one repeated point) regarding moderns racing with the historics. Since this site is firmly planted in the historic/classic camp, surely someone here could comment......

Thanks,

Russ

[Russ Cunningham]

Brendon did drive well and we are very pleased.
That still doesn't explain the standard shocks and the $5000.00 engine.
Maybe people are using the wrong engine builders.
Formula Ford doesn't have to break the bank as we have proved.
Some of the other competitors also ran their own cars and very successfully as well.

Okay, Brendon did drive well and proved those chaps in Nelson Right----He is a good little ???? I except the engine cost because his old man is a straight bloke (except when he dresses up in womens clothing) BUT Barry, how much did these standard shocks cost???
Remember? you did tell me.

Simple two way shocks would assist in keeping costs down by a big chunk.

ps. If I come up with $49,000 does the Porsche come with the driver?

[Russ Cunningham]

Just re-reading all the posts in this thread because this subject is close to my heart.

No one has addressed these points (or rather this one repeated point) regarding moderns racing with the historics. Since this site is firmly planted in the historic/classic camp, surely someone here could comment......

Thanks,

Russ

Russ,

A true FF supporter and a voice of reason. I agree!!! let's hope someone at MSNZ takes notice! I've never met Crunch but if anyone at MSNZ is going to take notice then surely this man, the only one so far from MSNZ with the balls to front up.

[Russ Noble]

Yes I agree, massive kudos to crunch for fronting. I'm sure life would have been a whole heap easier for him just to stay away and bury his head in the sand. That someone of his standing makes himself available to competitors and appears to at least consider, and answer where he can, all the various concerns expressed makes me think maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel after all.

However, I don't see providing racing with historic FF for late model cars is the responsibility of MSNZ, rather it is up to the historic competitors and organisers that would have to allow them to race with them. Lets face it, initially the numbers aren't going to be that great, so whats wrong with a handful of moderns running around at the back of your fields? The average Joe Public can't tell one single seater from another, so its hardly going to impact on the image, and if they are running way behind the historic field why should the historic drivers care?

[Russ Cunningham]

Yes I agree, massive kudos to crunch for fronting. I'm sure life would have been a whole heap easier for him just to stay away and bury his head in the sand. That someone of his standing makes himself available to competitors and appears to at least consider, and answer where he can, all the various concerns expressed makes me think maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel after all.

However, I don't see providing racing with historic FF for late model cars is the responsibility of MSNZ, rather it is up to the historic competitors and organisers that would have to allow them to race with them. Lets face it, initially the numbers aren't going to be that great, so whats wrong with a handful of moderns running around at the back of your fields? The average Joe Public can't tell one single seater from another, so its hardly going to impact on the image, and if they are running way behind the historic field why should the historic drivers care?

That is another point to be considered Russ but it still does not address the exorbitant cost rises that have stifled the class over the past decade.

[Russ Noble]

In recent times MSNZ has addressed some of these costs, and I agree that the potential for excessive spending needs to be more readily contained and it would be good to see a move before next season to restrict data loggers and shocks. And in the longer term go with the Honda motor as that has been developed to be on a par with the Kent with regard to performance, so no instant obsolescence for the Kent runners.

But is that really what's stifling the class?

There is a hell of a lot more population and hard core money in the NI than in the South....... But the top four serious competitors were South Islanders and the majority of them were running on minimal budgets. There is no reason a similar number of North Islanders couldn't have competed with them on equally minimal budgets.

In fact, looking at the population disparity between the Islands, one would think that if the SI can provide four competitors then the NI should have had a dozen! That would then start to give us half respectable grids.....

Think again, is it really a cost issue? If so, why hasn’t that stopped the SI guys as well….

Why is it that southerners currently find themselves the mainstay of, and leading competitors in, the FF class?? Certainly not because they are all spending megabucks, quite the opposite generally.

What is different between the North and South Islands?

The main thing that I can think of, is that we currently have a six round SIFF championship, which incidentally this year was won by Michael Collins with James Munro runner up. It is a competitive and close fought championship, and both these guys brought their cars back from the NI to compete in the final round the week before Taupo. As I have stated before, it is a serious championship and provides competitive seat time before embarking on the National Championship.

The northerners lack anything remotely similar.

That in my view is the major reason the North Islanders are not supporting the FF Championship. If there was a successful FF northern racing infrastructure outside the National Championship then there would be cars and competitors to draw upon. As it is there is nothing.

Sorry, I’m starting to sound like a broken record on this one, but it’s all too easy to say the demise of FF is due to excessive costs. The South Island has proved that this is not so. It’s the lack of racing in the NI that is the problem.

Now, how can that be addressed?

Does anyone even want to address it?

[ERC]

There was a lot of discussion at HD at the weekend on many topics and one thing that popped up regarding the stepping stones, might be worth considering.

Not so long ago, it was karting to FF and the onwards and upwards. Now, there is fairly strong evidence to suggest that the very successful BMW E30 series might be a cheaper stepping stone, especially for acquiring racecraft. Let's face it, any control series with a high number of regular competitors with plenty of rounds, has to be worth a go and as that is a north island only series, it may be one possible explanation.

[Russ Noble]

Maybe. But E30 into TRS would be a bit of a quantum leap.......

[Russ Cunningham]

I take on board everything that you say, Russ. No doubt the Nth. Is. could do with a man such as yourself who has the belief and the wherewithal to back this. However, as ERC has stated, maybe here in the Nth. we just have too many options. Bloody sad for single seater people but maybe this is the reality of it.

[Wal Will]

I agree with Russ on that one. The difference between open wheel cars and 'Tin Tops' is chalk and cheese.
Having just done a couple of seasons in 'Clubmans' I can attest that there is a whole lot more contact and lack of finess involved when you have a bit of bodywork around you.

[rf84]

Interesting looking at "Mylaps" website and in particular the times for the FF cars at Taupo March 8/9/10.The lap times for the current cars and the Historic FF's were surprisingly not all that far apart-2 secs a lap in practice between pole position (a current car) and the fastest Historic FF. Maybe it was a mistake splitting the FF class into two and a good case could be made for combining them?

[Russ Noble]

Was it actually split into two, or did it just evolve that way? This happened at a time when I was away from the racing scene so I'm not sure of the scenario. rf84's suggestion of recombining them has a lot of merit.

There is the provision of a Pre 93 Class in the National championship so the historics do have somewhere to race amongst themselves in the NZ Championship without having to foot it with newer cars that are less than 20 years old. It is interesting though that given the strength of the historics in the NI that the only car competing in that class was one of our SIFF competitors .....

But yes, if the Historics in the North could be incorporated into the National Championship with suitable concessions from MSNZ re entry fees, HANZ, seatbelts etc., that would be great. So long as the Historics actually wanted to do that. One would have to hope that they would. And I would also hope that MSNZ could get their act together on that as well....

Once they are talking together and competing at the same meetings then maybe as an extension of that the historics may decide to open the ranks in their Historic Series so the modern cars could also run with them under some suitable arrangement so the drivers could get seat time.

That to me would appear to be the most reasonable solution, but is there the will within MSNZ and the Historic racers to make that happen?

I guess it is good that this is being discussed on a historic website and I hope a lot of those guys might take the opportunity to chime in with their thoughts.

After all an FF is an FF, the regs they are built under are very little changed from forty years ago. I am not at all surprised that there is only a few seconds lap time between them. The incremental improvements from year to year are relatively minute.

So who in the NI is going to get in behind this and get the ball rolling?

Or is it just a good idea that will fail due to lack of interest, and/or no-one local to champion it, and/or an unwillingness on either side to find an accomodation?

[ERC]

Good post Russ.

I am running a meeting at Hampton Downs April 21st (MONZA/ERC). Historic FFs are already invited (they turned up with 14 last year) and I see no reason to not accept a modern FF if anyone wants to enter. I'll just make sure the ASRs include FF & Historic FF. It is as easy as that as far as I am concerned. Entry fee will be under $200 and a guaranteed 1 practice and three 8 lap races. Will that do?

Entry will be electronic via the Motorsports entry website and will be up shortly just as soon as the ASRs are finalised/approved. (Deb is flat out with the ITM400 at the moment and she is our race Director and CoC!)

[rf84]

Thanks ERC. I hope the "experiment"is successful and that you get the support you deserve.
A major part of the 'problem' motor sport is facing (and, I would suggest, many sports clubs and clubs in general) is NZ's geography and demographics. If you look at it logically we have a land area bigger than the UK (that's England, Scotland Ireland and Wales all put together) but with approximately 1/20th of the population (4 million vs 80-odd mill). So if/when someone "invents" a new class of racing, we do not necessarily attract new competitors. All we do is spread our already low number of competitors more thinly over more classes.
One day when I have the time I intend to compile a list of all the classes of cars racing in NZ. I know this website is dedicated to the more historic side of motorsport, but with Steve's permission I will start a thread with the list on the RS.

[ERC]

It isn't the number of classes per se, it is the opportunities to actually race the cars. Within our April 21st meeting there are two Thoroughbred/Marque series races - individually run. Whereas one group has a long series history, the other is fairly new. The 'older group' are happy to combine to make good grids, whereas the new group won't - which may well be to their long term detriment, as we cannot afford two non financially viable grids at a one day meeting. It is as simple as that. Every meeting has to at least break even (a profit would be better!).

We (ERC) had to split into two groups and BMW have had to split into four! So, far from depleting the pool, the opportunities are there to expand the pool, just as long as there is a genuine need and the rules, structure and administration are robust.

We still have a slowly growing number of Formula Juniors even now, and FF should really be massive.

If the only issue for getting seat time is getting invitions, then just approach meeting organisers. I am not sure of the current sanctioned series entry fees, but running a car in a non-sanctioned series event, paying the normal entry fee, is no problem - just as long as it is clear to the drivers that there are no sanctioned points.

[Russ Noble]

ERC, that's a massive step in the right direction. Thanks for that.

It will be interesting to see if anyone avails themselves of this opportunity. It's also a matter of getting the info out to the potential competitors. Maybe some of the historic FF racers on here could spread the word amongst the moderns they know? I would anticipate a slow uptake of this offer initially but hopefully over time as word gets out it will gain strength.

[Russ Cunningham]

As we all know there are many cars from the 90's and even later, laying round unused. A crying bloody shame but the owners need something positive to ignite their enthusiasm. If I had the dosh I'd do just that, but!!!!!

This is where we need the indulgence and support of both MSNZ and the Ford Motor Company...... FORD! Come to the party and put your money behind the formula or risk it becoming Formula Honda or Formula Cherry????

[rf84]

Eric Mallard told me that an approach had been made to Ford about financial support for FF but they were not interested. As another member pointed out in a previous post, why would they? The brand name is synonomous with the class-their Ford name is out there every time the cars race, appear on TV etc. They no longer stock or sell parts for the Kent engine (or any of their models prior to 1998!!!!) so there's no money in it for them.

[crunch]

Ford would support the new Formula4/Ford that is current in Europe as that is part of the whole package.

If the current cars are kept and the field gets bigger; it just needs a sponsor, not Ford itself.

[Howard Wood]

I think the point is Crunch that Ford have ridden for free on FFord for many years. If they come on board in the future, fine, but at this point the class doesn't really owe them any loyalty or special favours.

Even back in the '70s their financial input was small and the conditions/ sponsorship exclusions they imposed quite severe.

[crunch]

I think the point is Crunch that Ford have ridden for free on FFord for many years. If they come on board in the future, fine, but at this point the class doesn't really owe them any loyalty or special favours.

Even back in the '70s their financial input was small and the conditions/ sponsorship exclusions they imposed quite severe.

Agree, I didnt quite word my reply correctly.
As an aside; I Had a look at your car in the weekend Howard. Just like to say I'm not a BMW fan persay, but you have done a wonderful job in building it. Very nice.

[Racer Rog]

I think the point is Crunch that Ford have ridden for free on FFord for many years. If they come on board in the future, fine, but at this point the class doesn't really owe them any loyalty or special favours.

Even back in the '70s their financial input was small and the conditions/ sponsorship exclusions they imposed quite severe.

I agree here Howard, you thought you were getting a good deal, but in short they were screwing us, they had a huge amount of marketing out FF, at no real cost, I don't share Crunch's view, that they will oversee the rebirth of FF with integrity, and would rather go with the Honda version, as I believe that this would be a cheaper and more cost effective option, and put a limit on shock options this will level the field out a bit. Having like many, been bitten by Ford, in FF over the years, have seen a package from Ford that will fly. and I think that if they are serious, they should show their hand, so this can be debated.
Roger

[rf84]

I have tried unsuccessfully to get info on this new Formula 4. Can anyone provide a link or give us a summary of what Formula 4 involves? I still associate F4 with funny little Tecnos and Walkers with 250cc motorcycle motors!!!!!!

[Powder]

I have tried unsuccessfully to get info on this new Formula 4. Can anyone provide a link or give us a summary of what Formula 4 involves? I still associate F4 with funny little Tecnos and Walkers with 250cc motorcycle motors!!!!!!

Some info here: http://www.formula4.com/
They look good and are made by Ralph Firman, who founded Van Dieman.
Although it's a one-make series, I don't think an RF84 would be allowed. :)

[Russ Noble]

This is the page that describes the car.
http://www.formula4.com/the-car.aspx

Not too far removed from the new Ecoboost 200 F Ford, both have wings and slicks but F4 has 185 hp from an old Duratec engine whereas the new FF has 200 from the new Ecoboost. And here is some discussion about F4.
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134824
There is quite a bit of superfluous stuff to wade through but there are some insightful observations too.

Both are the wrong choice for NZ as their spec is too close to our Toyotas and will immediately render our current crop of F Fords obsolete. And who would import these cars anyway? You may as well jump straight into a Toyota which is a proven class rather than gambling on a newly introduced but similar class which may or may not be successful. It would be like having two competing V8 saloon car classes!

We need to get back to the original concept of FF. A simple car to hone race craft skills and to give a young guy an indication as to whether he has the basic potential to go further. Without spending megabucks to find out. Our current FF regs can be tailored to achieve that by restricting the areas where the big money is sometimes spent. That would remove the conception that you need a lot of money to compete successfully in FF and hopefully things would flow from there…….

[Carlo]

We need to get back to the original concept of FF. A simple car to hone race craft skills and to give a young guy an indication as to whether he has the basic potential to go further. Without spending megabucks to find out. ….

Which is exactly the vision of the formula that the manager of Ford Motorsport was expressing to me at the 2011 WRC event in Spain.

[Russ Noble]

Which is a great sentiment.

But they wouldn't/couldn't step up with anything suitable in the States and because of that Honda came to the party with exactly what was required. Now in 2013 Ford are behind the FF200 Ecoboost and that is just not an option on the NZ scene, for all the reasons already mentioned.

But the Honda is.

Ford have seriously dropped the ball on this one. And their record with FF in NZ is less than optimal, as earlier posters have stated. We have no reason to show any allegiance to Ford.

[crunch]

Think I have changed my mind with all the good input on here. I now think that we need to put "on-hold" introducing a new generation Formula Ford class. We need to attract the "already here" field out of the sheds. I dont think that problem is as much to do with the engine as some have stated, but the perception of costs. I take on board what Barry Leitch has said and believe it. It shows you dont have to have a fat wallet/big sponsor to run at the front.

Now MSNZ has to find ways and incentives to get a field out there, many have already been presented to them with the internal report of 3 years ago, but there are more we should start working on TODAY with the FF Association.

However; unless Honda are paying as a class sponsor, I dont see any fit in the near future for them. It has only been called Formula Ford because that is what it is known as, can be Formula ??? (whoever is paying). One year, the Class 2 cars were called Formula Dunlop due to a sponsorship arrangement so it may not automatically be called Formula Ford, but we know we will all refer to it as that.....

[crunch]

[QUOTE=crunch;26391]

However; unless Honda are paying as a class sponsor, I dont see any fit in the near future for them. QUOTE]


Fit....get it???

[rf84]

Powder. Thanks for that link. The F4 car certainly looks impressive but I think it also looks rather complex-probably too complex to be a viable "starter" car on the single seater ladder. As for the RF84, they were way behind the '8 ball' in 1984 let alone 2013!!!!! (except in the hands of the brilliant Ashley Stichbury).
There are heaps of Kent FF cars around (though few being built new) and parts are cheap and not a problem to obtain. I did an engine freshen up a couple of months ago and installed a new clutch. Cost was $1500 ($1000 for parts and $500 for beer). No. Seriously-came out just under $1500.

[Russ Noble]

Got it without the prompt!

Good thoughts Crunch.

I’m not sure if its necessary for Honda to put in any money though. Be nice if they did, but if we can get the same deal they have in the States or buy them ex US at the US rates, then that would be the Honda contribution, and the best option for competitors.

And if no one is picking up series sponsorship it could be referred to as Formula F, and that covers it whether you are running a Ford or a Fit. As they have done in the States.

Just out of interest, how much did Ford put into the Formula Ford Championship this year, and how was it distributed?

You are right, work needs to begin immediately on how to entice all those existing cars out... The motor consideration is more something to be addressed after we have achieved that.

[Russ Cunningham]

Got it without the prompt!

Good thoughts Crunch.

I’m not sure if its necessary for Honda to put in any money though. Be nice if they did, but if we can get the same deal they have in the States or buy them ex US at the US rates, then that would be the Honda contribution, and the best option for competitors.

And if no one is picking up series sponsorship it could be referred to as Formula F, and that covers it whether you are running a Ford or a Fit. As they have done in the States.

Just out of interest, how much did Ford put into the Formula Ford Championship this year, and how was it distributed?

You are right, work needs to begin immediately on how to entice all those existing cars out... The motor consideration is more something to be addressed after we have achieved that.

You're onto it!

[Wal Will]

rf84 is saying that there are lots of F/Fords out there but few being built. I have seen a book (of poor construction with the pages falling out) listing the makers of Formula Fords in the earlier days. There were heaps of them - many just making one or 2 cars. George Begg made 4 (with his second - Humber 80 powered car - later being converted making 5).
It would be great if earlier cars could be upgraded by owners, to be more competative.
Problem with a 'historic' car is that if it was bad in period people don't want alter it and loose its classification. If we got back to old and new running together, and it was possible to make an old car quicker, I think it should be done, and just consider it part of adding to its history. I drove the Begg 02 in its F/Ford guise and it is still a good car.

[Howard Wood]

Think I have changed my mind with all the good input on here. I now think that we need to put "on-hold" introducing a new generation Formula Ford class. We need to attract the "already here" field out of the sheds. I dont think that problem is as much to do with the engine as some have stated, but the perception of costs. I take on board what Barry Leitch has said and believe it. It shows you dont have to have a fat wallet/big sponsor to run at the front.

Now MSNZ has to find ways and incentives to get a field out there, many have already been presented to them with the internal report of 3 years ago, but there are more we should start working on TODAY with the FF Association.

However; unless Honda are paying as a class sponsor, I dont see any fit in the near future for them. It has only been called Formula Ford because that is what it is known as, can be Formula ??? (whoever is paying). One year, the Class 2 cars were called Formula Dunlop due to a sponsorship arrangement so it may not automatically be called Formula Ford, but we know we will all refer to it as that.....

Its good to know the consultation process works Crunch. I think your new position is right on the money, now its over to the various interested parties to make it happen.

[driftwood]

I have just read thru the last 7 pages of posts comments view
Here is my $1.50 worth

Formula Ford is alive around the world in various guises in Historics classes and modern car design cut off dates classes in different countries.

Here in the "motherland" we still run FFord to the letter of the rules set out donkeys years ago
Kent engines as per the original rules ( USA has alloy heads different pistons flywheels and cranks) we can now use the Scat crank
Dampers and wheels are steel Usa has modified this rule
Dampers are 2 way units at most
Tyres are still a treaded tyre not slick
we have avon ACB10 for modern FFord and softer ACB9 with the old dunlop tread pattern for classic & Historic FFord
FYI Historic is pre 72
Classic is 73pre 82 ie rocker suspension
We have Pre 90 Fford
then the regional championships are headed by Vd 90-92 type cars and VD2000 zetec conversions with later 06 ish Rays VD cars converted from Zetec Duratec cars
However some of these cars become expensive to convert to Kent spec as the donor car has alloy dampers alloy callipers ( need to often change uprights radial calipre need lug mounted uprights) alloy wheels engine cover
Most people opt for VD 99-01 car as easiest car to convert for Zetec

Kent FFord in UK ran to 92 and in 93 we had the Dreadful Zetec car and class B Fford was kent engine and Swift built 93 kent car VD didnt bother
In 2003 ish? Ford introduced the Duratec motor but the grids where not good and even the zetec B class didnt bolster things but a lot of this was down to the inept way Ford dictated things and the crass management/organiser involved
Then in 2012 Ford in their infinate wisdom brought out the Eco bosst motor ran car less wings and it flopped
Now they have wings on it and it will have double figure grids but sill a poorly managed promoted championship with high budgets

IMHO IF NZ wants a stepping stone category from karting to F Toyota then look at running 2 year old Duratec cars from Pomland or dig in and sort Kent out in NZ by getting techy with cars
1 steel dampers 1 way or 2 way at most ( maybe nominate damper supplier)
2 weight limit in UK is 420 kg for car 505 car driver
3 ban data logger allow digital dash rpm oil water lap timer but no other sensors
4 Tyres what do u run? our avons now have bar code on them so easy for Techy to bar code tyres so make it 4 new tyres for 3 rounds and allow 1 front 1 rear used as spare/accident damage puncture
this way you can keep tabs on what guys are spending
5 Kent engine parts are getting harder to source for rebuild few issue with pistons and relinering costs heaps
so maybe allow plus 20 though type over bore but add weight to car to compensate for possible extra power the over bore gives versus the £500 relinering cost we have here

Regarding new cars
who needs new car?
Plenty of VD90-92 cars around few Stealths from 93-98 era you have Vd99-02 cars there just get on and get them out of the shed and run them
If precious little Johnny cannot better the times set by Stitchbury Kenny etc etc who drove them 5 10 20 years ago then they aint really trying
We have great FFord Festival for Kents and the Walter Hayes Trophy meeting and numerous local championships running the cars of all different ages
As for combining grids of different year cars ie modern and classic/Historic FFords just get set up some classes with some incentives ie best novice prize /highest u the grid older car etc offer free tyres fuel race entry ferry crossing to encourage grid swelling by finding some donor sponsors
Each year a newer Fford has gone 1-2 tenths alap quicker not leaps n bounds so a 2001 car is only going to be 1.5-2 seconds a lap quicker than a 76 car
In the old days at Brands hatch the pro FFord lap record was set in 85 by Johnny herbert 47.4 the club series guys in champ of brands managed 48.5 as best time circa 93 ish
Jan Magnusson left the record in 92 a tad quicker
Today the circuit has been changed and is slower
Kent record was set in 2011 at the festival @ 49.95 in a Vd2k and the Champ of Brands runners are doing 50.3/4 ish in similar age car
The VD80 car in classic FFord is doing 51.8 ish and Historic cars are 52.1/2

FFord is a great class it does not need new engine it does not need new chassis it does not need 1 make chassis engine either
It needs promoting ( ignore FoMoCo they are a holes) from within NZ on north and south island let them have own "national" championship then have 2 festivals rotating each year to different tracks at the same date each year on each island then get everyone down for heats final to determine who is the best.

In the UK we have Irish series runners Scotland and england and the festival and WHT brings everyone together to see who is top dog
USA and Canada also send over their top drivers to these 2 events

France runs pre 94 cars as they see Kent as it ran up to Zetec cars
Germany was pre 93 until this year
now they allow pre 02 cars to race

I run VD2k i have just bought a VD90 to rebuild and i have Alexis 71 car to restore to race this year
I have 84 Mondiale semi restored ( allegedly eddie irvine car)
I am also in middle of buying another historic car that I will bring down to your January festival to race and you will be excited to see it run in its original drivers livery
I also race modern F3 cars and i enjoy driving my VD2 k as much as my dallara

Remember these dads with karting sons are spending la la money in karting anyway in UK USA EEC and NZ and its been like that for 40 years so let the front runners spend the $ just encourage the rest to come out and race fill the grid and have someone else to dice with after all If Kenny is still racing FFord what does that tell you?

[Russ Cunningham]

I have just read thru the last 7 pages of posts comments view
Here is my $1.50 worth

Formula Ford is alive around the world in various guises in Historics classes and modern car design cut off dates classes in different countries.

Here in the "motherland" we still run FFord to the letter of the rules set out donkeys years ago
Kent engines as per the original rules ( USA has alloy heads different pistons flywheels and cranks) we can now use the Scat crank
Dampers and wheels are steel Usa has modified this rule
Dampers are 2 way units at most
Tyres are still a treaded tyre not slick
we have avon ACB10 for modern FFord and softer ACB9 with the old dunlop tread pattern for classic & Historic FFord
FYI Historic is pre 72
Classic is 73pre 82 ie rocker suspension
We have Pre 90 Fford
then the regional championships are headed by Vd 90-92 type cars and VD2000 zetec conversions with later 06 ish Rays VD cars converted from Zetec Duratec cars
However some of these cars become expensive to convert to Kent spec as the donor car has alloy dampers alloy callipers ( need to often change uprights radial calipre need lug mounted uprights) alloy wheels engine cover
Most people opt for VD 99-01 car as easiest car to convert for Zetec

Kent FFord in UK ran to 92 and in 93 we had the Dreadful Zetec car and class B Fford was kent engine and Swift built 93 kent car VD didnt bother
In 2003 ish? Ford introduced the Duratec motor but the grids where not good and even the zetec B class didnt bolster things but a lot of this was down to the inept way Ford dictated things and the crass management/organiser involved
Then in 2012 Ford in their infinate wisdom brought out the Eco bosst motor ran car less wings and it flopped
Now they have wings on it and it will have double figure grids but sill a poorly managed promoted championship with high budgets

IMHO IF NZ wants a stepping stone category from karting to F Toyota then look at running 2 year old Duratec cars from Pomland or dig in and sort Kent out in NZ by getting techy with cars
1 steel dampers 1 way or 2 way at most ( maybe nominate damper supplier)
2 weight limit in UK is 420 kg for car 505 car driver
3 ban data logger allow digital dash rpm oil water lap timer but no other sensors
4 Tyres what do u run? our avons now have bar code on them so easy for Techy to bar code tyres so make it 4 new tyres for 3 rounds and allow 1 front 1 rear used as spare/accident damage puncture
this way you can keep tabs on what guys are spending
5 Kent engine parts are getting harder to source for rebuild few issue with pistons and relinering costs heaps
so maybe allow plus 20 though type over bore but add weight to car to compensate for possible extra power the over bore gives versus the £500 relinering cost we have here

Regarding new cars
who needs new car?
Plenty of VD90-92 cars around few Stealths from 93-98 era you have Vd99-02 cars there just get on and get them out of the shed and run them
If precious little Johnny cannot better the times set by Stitchbury Kenny etc etc who drove them 5 10 20 years ago then they aint really trying
We have great FFord Festival for Kents and the Walter Hayes Trophy meeting and numerous local championships running the cars of all different ages
As for combining grids of different year cars ie modern and classic/Historic FFords just get set up some classes with some incentives ie best novice prize /highest u the grid older car etc offer free tyres fuel race entry ferry crossing to encourage grid swelling by finding some donor sponsors
Each year a newer Fford has gone 1-2 tenths alap quicker not leaps n bounds so a 2001 car is only going to be 1.5-2 seconds a lap quicker than a 76 car
In the old days at Brands hatch the pro FFord lap record was set in 85 by Johnny herbert 47.4 the club series guys in champ of brands managed 48.5 as best time circa 93 ish
Jan Magnusson left the record in 92 a tad quicker
Today the circuit has been changed and is slower
Kent record was set in 2011 at the festival @ 49.95 in a Vd2k and the Champ of Brands runners are doing 50.3/4 ish in similar age car
The VD80 car in classic FFord is doing 51.8 ish and Historic cars are 52.1/2

FFord is a great class it does not need new engine it does not need new chassis it does not need 1 make chassis engine either
It needs promoting ( ignore FoMoCo they are a holes) from within NZ on north and south island let them have own "national" championship then have 2 festivals rotating each year to different tracks at the same date each year on each island then get everyone down for heats final to determine who is the best.

In the UK we have Irish series runners Scotland and england and the festival and WHT brings everyone together to see who is top dog
USA and Canada also send over their top drivers to these 2 events

France runs pre 94 cars as they see Kent as it ran up to Zetec cars
Germany was pre 93 until this year
now they allow pre 02 cars to race

I run VD2k i have just bought a VD90 to rebuild and i have Alexis 71 car to restore to race this year
I have 84 Mondiale semi restored ( allegedly eddie irvine car)
I am also in middle of buying another historic car that I will bring down to your January festival to race and you will be excited to see it run in its original drivers livery
I also race modern F3 cars and i enjoy driving my VD2 k as much as my dallara

Remember these dads with karting sons are spending la la money in karting anyway in UK USA EEC and NZ and its been like that for 40 years so let the front runners spend the $ just encourage the rest to come out and race fill the grid and have someone else to dice with after all If Kenny is still racing FFord what does that tell you?

The only time I drink warm beer is in the winter and then it's pommy brew. BUT! You talk a lot of sense even though you like warm beer. Have to agree with most of what you say but really we have to put a stop on rich daddies, somehow.

[driftwood]

I have tried your cold beer and i know why you keep it cold !!
Cant beat a good english ale but you can beat an egg!
The rich daddy syndrome has been around from the beginning of motor sport
Gordon Bennet was a wealthy man so was Lance Reventlow Maston Gregory and countless team owners who put young drivers into their cars
To stop daddy shelling out the $$ limit testing limit tyres do away with data logger fancy dampers but the old kent engine cannot be monitored like modern motors with ecu and Fuel injection it has to stay as it is
Perhaps bring in the purchase rule that any driver with the cash can buy the motor on the spot but it will still allow mega buck dad to just buy up the paddock motors
Over here in karting i heard 1 dad bought 70 new cadet motors tested them all kept the 5 best sold the rest off
I also heard that this dad later when kid was older had his SEALED motors opened up fiddled with and then the RAC scrutineer re sealed them and he had £30k into his hand
Kid won the championship and al this came out after wards at the Tribunal and RAC scrutineer was banned for life
Money talks and always has done so let mega buck dad spend his money win the championship and the rest can get on and spend their house keeping money going racing and the real yardstick is the rest of the boys racing
Forgive me for not knowing who your quick boys are as i do not get Motorsport NZ weekly over here but IF i was coming down to race you lot my target is Kenny- If i can be on his tail i am doing well If i beat him then i am happy and i then target the next guy on the result sheet BUT i am not going to be sucked into $15k motors $2k per day engineer $2k on tyres in a weekend to do it
There are sons and dads that can run a good FFord set up with methodical approach spend money wisely get the best out of teh motor tyres test days etc

Last year at the WHT at silverstone the kid in next garage dad said to me we have 8 sets of tyres for sale all new that weekend and will be used 8-10 laps for the each practise session and heat that weekend ! FFS it is a bit of fun i was running 2011 made tyres that were unused in 2012 till i fitted them for the October festival and use again at WHT and i will use them again in some Champ of Brands rounds in 2013 till i have to reluctantly buy another new set
BTW can some one advise me what FFords race at the Hampton Downs hysterical meetings in January?
is it pre 74 or do you include pre 82 cars as well?
Also how does the shipping work do you pay for us to come over? free entry?
any chance we get as much free beer as we can drink and pick of yer women folk too?
I am not bringing my welly's !!

[Michael Clark]

Hey Drift - we had 36 entries for the FF races at the Denny Hulme Festival.

We run Class 1 and 2 cars all together - anything with a Hewland Mk8/9 can run so we range from a Lotus 51B to a vD RF88.

We had six visting Europeans all organised by ringleader Alan Crocker - if you know him, he would be a good person to talk to about shipping, having just done it. As a matter of interest, the six cars comprised Crossles 16/25/32Fs, a Titan Mk6, vD RF88 and Alan's 71 Ray.

Free entry? Yeah good one...Free other things will depend on charm - suffice to say 'Team Europe' (two Ulsterman, a Frenchman, a Dane, a Dutchman and Alan) and all seemed to have a great time - off track at least.

An idea might be to find five like minded old fart FFers to share a container and head on down - I think Team Europe's cars were loaded in early November and arrived here just in time - but there is Taupo the weekend before the first Festival race and then, if the appetite is there, the South Island meetings.

All this means that in six successive weekends there is Taupo, Festival 1 at Hampton Downs, Festival 2 at Hampton Downs, Ruapuna, Levels and Teretonga.

Go for it!!

[driftwood]

thanks for info i will find Mr Crocker

the car i have in mind needs full restoration and that might be tight for Nov departure
I could only do the auckland events time wise and $ wise hence the word "free" used
i still need to buy an expensive full peak plane ticket survive for 2 weeks in NZ hire a car etc
I assume the shipping is from UK to the track so i dont need to organise tow car trailer from dock to track etc

[ERC]

Regarding the forthcoming April 21st meeting at Hampton Downs, we have reluctantly had to drop the invitation to modern FFs. I understand that mixing the old and new versions is not without issues, so I do apologise to any moderns who had intended running - though none had entered as at this morning. I thought I was doing the right thing by inviting them, having followed this thread, but I guess that with the best will in the world, you can't always please everyone. Sorry.

We have always had a very good rapport with the Historic FFs and whereas the FJs and smaller capacity historics will happily share the track with them, as they understand the meeting philosophy, the speed differential with modern FF's is seen as too great, especially if any FJs also enter.

[Russ Noble]

the speed differential with modern FF's is seen as too great,

That's a great pity. Never mind, full marks to you for attempting to achieve this.

I ran my VD92, by invitation, at a "Classic Oldtimers" meeting at Ruapuna last weekend. I think it was Oldtimer drivers they were referring to. I was most put out being classed as an "Oldtimer"! Entries ranged from wings and slicks FF2000s and an F Renault at the pointy end to an Elden PH25 which is actually not that slow. No problems, perceived or otherwise. Often in club races we run with F5000s and a F Holden which still holds the outright lap record there, set by Baird or Dixon I don't remember which at the time that was the current formula.

Unfortunately FF in the NI appears to be adversely affected by a whole lot of misconceptions such as this, and cost etc. Also, I guess the meeting philosophy thing as well.

So the question remains, where to from here for the NI and the Championship?

[Wal Will]

Glad we are down here in the Mainland Russ, they seem determined to shoot themselves in the foot up there. What a shame.

[Russ Noble]

Yes Wal, things seem to be looking up on the Mainland. The reason I accepted the invitation to race with the classics last weekend was so I could bend the classic FF drivers ears about entering the SIFF Championship next season.

I keep on at them, and it looks like it may be having an effect. From conversations that I have had, I have reason to be confident that we will see increased numbers of classics for next season. The fact that one competitor in an 84 car managed to take home over $1400 prize money this season is also probably not lost on them. That's not too far away from paying for a set of tyres and fuel for the car for the six rounds! At the level that we operate down here that's a fairly good chunk of direct running expenses covered. If you want to race, you might as well race where you get some returns....

At this point it is probably worth reiterating that the prize money structure for SIFF means ALL competitors in the SIFF Championship pick up prize money. And it is skewed to attracting the older cars.

Hopefully too, with some of the top guns in their Mygales and Stealths moving on, we will manage to attract the next band of young hopefuls. That's a perennial problem..... Certainly there is an advantage having competitive seat time in a series before you embark on a National campaign.

I wonder how Brendon would have gone had he actually done some of the SIFF races beforehand? The NZ Championship was pretty close fought in the end and that could possibly have given him the edge? We will never know...... Certainly, I know James considers that cutting his teeth, and learning from the mistakes he made, in SIFF in the months beforehand helped him win the NZ title.

[Jac Mac]

I keep on at them, and it looks like it may be having an effect. From conversations that I have had, I have reason to be confident that we will see increased numbers of classics for next season. The fact that one competitor in an 84 car managed to take home over $1400 prize money this season is also probably not lost on them. That's not too far away from paying for a set of tyres and fuel for the car for the six rounds! At the level that we operate down here that's a fairly good chunk of direct running expenses covered. If you want to race, you might as well race where you get some returns....

At this point it is probably worth reiterating that the prize money structure for SIFF means ALL competitors in the SIFF Championship pick up prize money. And it is skewed to attracting the older cars.

Russ, I think your method of sponsorship has a lot of merit, too often when a sponsor is found for any series the $$$ is soaked up in advertising & promotion rather than being used as a prize money fund in the manner you have done, organisers and sponsors alike often seem to think that competitors have a bottomless money pit ( and given some of the examples on track today they could be briefly forgiven that! ). When discussions like this come up I am reminded of how things used to be when I first ventured into motorsport back in the late 1960's.... Teretonga clubmans series, early entry fee refunded on passing scruiteneering check on race day, prize money paid out on points down to about tenth place ( might have been more?). OSCA ...that was interesting, when I started with the Imp~1971 prize money from meeting on placings in class was in the mail the following week and a further amount based on season points at the final race meet of the season, by 1978/79 when I gave it all away the meeting checks were up to 3 months late and the season final points tally also late. The point here is that the prize money in my case paid for gas money to & from the events plus accomodation at the local camping grounds etc, it simply would not have happened without it. Older & Wiser? I might be, but everyone in Motorsport these days seem to have forgotten that without cars & drivers willing to take that first step into motorsport they will eventually have nothing for the public to actually look at, we have also lost that 'can do' kiwi attitude which created all the stuff that we are reminiscing over on this site, doesnt need to be that way.

[crunch]

Unfortunately FF in the NI appears to be adversely affected by a whole lot of misconceptions such as this, and cost etc. Also, I guess the meeting philosophy thing as well.



Agree. Yet people on here are still repeating the misconceptions and they have already been told they are not true. Nothing surer will kill F/Ford than these sorts of rumours.
As for Ray's offer, it was great but it seems as though some people are being a bit precious?

[crunch]

Glad we are down here in the Mainland Russ, they seem determined to shoot themselves in the foot up there. What a shame.

Unfortunately that seems so, Sad really.

[Russ Noble]

As for Ray's offer, it was great but it seems as though some people are being a bit precious?

Couldn't agree more, but Ray has to be cognizant of the wishes of his existing competitors. If enough of the "precious" ones and their mates decide to no longer enter because he has invited moderns, that would certainly be detrimental to his efforts. Especially if no moderns entered..... And we can't say that they would......

I am not close to what is happening in the NI but it appears to me that there seems to be a lethargic malaise amongst the modern car owners/drivers preventing them from getting together to instigate or support any initiatives in order to try and improve the NI and National situation.

I am not sure what role NZFF Inc has, or could have, in all this. But I have exchanged the odd note with Eric Mallard, and he has mentioned "we did put a lot of work in to encourage people". But whatever that was, and for what ever reason, it seems not to have born fruit. It appears the NI owners/drivers have lost interest?

So can someone with the knowledge tell me what is going on in the NI? Are the owners/drivers not responding to NZFF Inc. initiatives? Is NZFF not communicating effectively with the owners/drivers? Or is NZFF's role merely that of coordinating the national championship and it is not geared up to resuscitating a rather dormant FF scene on it's doorstep?

Towards the end of last year I joined NZFF Inc as a show of support, and I also thought that would keep me up to date with everything to do with FF, but other than forwarding of Championship articles, regs, dates etc and a request to enter, the only other communication has been in reply to emails I have sent.

By comparison, SIFF has had newsletters going out during their season, they have drivers meetings during the off season where matters pertaining to FF are discussed. There is an enthusiasm and sense of camaraderie amongst all.
And all this is due in no small way to the continuing efforts over many years of long time SIFF stalwart, Ian Bisman. Is there sufficient enthusiasm for someone to take the lead and do this in the NI?

In the SI there are club races put on by the likes of Canterbury Car Club, South Canterbury Car Club and Southland Sports Car Club for, amongst other things, Formula Libre where anyone with a Sports or Single Seater can compete. There are some interesting speed differentials there! LOL. Does anyone in the NI run these sort of club meetings?

I know. Lots of questions! But I am trying to understand what is (or is not) going on up north.

[crunch]

...you and me both Russ..

[ERC]

An interesting topic that has drifted a wee bit, but that is no bad thing. Read through this message board overall and what do you actually see?

Steve and Dale Pushing HMCs, along with Tony Roberts because they are passionate about its long term future - which I totally support and it will eventually become more viable as more cars hit the track as the basic formula is correct.

Our own series goes from strength to strength, partially again because the formula is correct and over the years, it has had sufficient support from sponsors (not at a high dollar value as such, but support that is appreciated).

Alfa Trofeo, by allowing in more modern Alfas has good support as there are a lot of Alfa owners around and most of their promotion is via their club, rather than through these message boards.

BMW has had spectacular growth both in the E30 series run under tight controls now there is BMW Open, under and over 2 litre, again pushed by their own committee.

BMWs and to a lesser extent, Alfas, are relatively easy to get hold of due to the numbers. MGCC Series on the other hand, cannot grow to spectacular heights as there are so few around, relatively, but the numbers are creeping up. Again, promotion is internal.

So where does that leave FF? For one thing, they are a vehicle that has one purpose and one purpose only - to race. You can't use a race car to nip out for the chips or the beer so they get less overall exposure, so as Russ points out, someone has to grab it by the scruff of the neck, lead it, expose it and most of all develop it. (I say someone as you don't always need a committee!)

Develop it? Class structures that may well attract the Historic guys in, or alternatively, develop classes from the existing stock that does not yet qualify as historic, but is no longer competitive at the top level.

Of all the single seaters around over the years, there MUST be more FFs gathering dust than any other. As I see it, there is nothing wrong with older FF chassis sporting engines other than the venerable 1600cc Ford. Lets say you could fit any 1500cc or lower capacity engine into a FF chassis and race, whether that is limited by age or not or even source, is up to those who want to run.

One of the major reasons for my love of FJ's is that there is a variety of engines. It is also one of the reasons why the FF doesn't attract me, though I do support it. Different sounds as well as looks are an essential part of motorsport for me.

[Russ Noble]

So where does that leave FF? For one thing, they are a vehicle that has one purpose and one purpose only - to race. You can't use a race car to nip out for the chips or the beer so they get less overall exposure, so as Russ points out, someone has to grab it by the scruff of the neck, lead it, expose it and most of all develop it. (I say someone as you don't always need a committee!)

That of course Ray is one of the disadvantages of FFs in so far as they are a class that many people can't relate to, and to the untrained eye they all look the same. They also look slow and unspectacular but in actual fact have quicker lap times than all the classes you mentioned earlier in your post. Certainly from the drivers seat it doesn't seem slow or unspectacular,particularly when you are mixing it with several other drivers doing similar lap times.

But because they are not 'grocery baskets' you are not going to get spectators waving Mygale or Van Diemen or Spectrum flags at Tier 1 rounds as happens with Ford and Holden fans at some meetings. I think there needs to be some lateral thinking, or maybe just more effort, in trying to explain and promote the championship, and the drivers, to the great unwashed. So that they can understand the finer points of the competition and relate to the drivers and their efforts.

The drivers too are often their own worst enemies when it comes to promoting themselves and the class. All the cars look the same to Joe Public and if they are browsing in the pits and they haven't got a program handy they don't know what they are looking at or whose car it is because the make of the car is seldom on it and the drivers name usually almost needs a magnifying glass to read it! This does nothing to develop spectator interest in the class.



Of all the single seaters around over the years, there MUST be more FFs gathering dust than any other. As I see it, there is nothing wrong with older FF chassis sporting engines other than the venerable 1600cc Ford. Lets say you could fit any 1500cc or lower capacity engine into a FF chassis and race, whether that is limited by age or not or even source, is up to those who want to run.

Personally I don't think this is a good idea, the Kent engine is admirably suited for classic/historic racing where you don't need the last 5 hp. It is cheap and reliable and of course original.


One of the major reasons for my love of FJ's is that there is a variety of engines. It is also one of the reasons why the FF doesn't attract me, though I do support it. Different sounds as well as looks are an essential part of motorsport for me.

Have to agree that the FFs all sound the same and are much too quiet so certainly don't sound fast either. Maybe we should make megaphones mandatory..... ;)

[ERC]

Nothing there I disagree with Russ. Speed has never been the issue, with FFs, but speed is always relative anyway. If cars look similar, and also sound similar, when only an expert can tell which is which (and I certainly can't, even though I have been a spectator since FF began), then trying to educate Joe average on the finer points is not going to be very easy. You are 100% correct, you are not going get people waving Elden/Crossle/Valour flags, which then means you have to come up with fairly full grids, as we have all seen fantastic wheel to wheel dices over the years.

The reason for suggesting a class with alternative engines was to try and get different sounds and also might encourage the builders as well as the drivers.

Formula Libre in the UK in the 1960s used to have everything from Chris Summers V8 Cooper (before F5000's) down to F500's and everything in between and it was great to see some original stuff out there. Having 50% of the field in true FF's and the balance with other single seaters, was just a suggestion, as some lateral thinking is obviously required.

[Wal Will]

If I may ‘waffle on’ a bit here, Motor racing at a club (non sponsored level) has changed a lot from where I started in the late 50’s.
I have records of receiving 5 quid for finishing 3rd in a hill climb back then. Nowadays as driver I accept that it is pay, pay, pay for the privilege to drive.
So we now have ‘The interest of the Paying driver’, ’The interest of the Club/promoter’.
I really don’t care if there is nobody coming through the gate to pay if I am getting no discount.
Should we as Drivers who are paying for the privilege to race - in say our Formula Fords - worry about the noise and presentation. All I/we want to do is go out and have a good days racing as economically as possible – and as far as I am concerned Formula Ford offers that. I am also very aware that one of the bottom lines of this forum is ‘The Future’ and balancing ‘The Old’ and ‘The New’.
If there was going to be some return in the form of Prize money from the Club/promoter, who had gone out and organised sponsorship then I would paint the car in whatever colour they wanted, and as politically incorrect as it is, have it make a noise.

[Russ Noble]

Great attitude Wal.

Now if you are going to do SIFF next season I would like to request that your car be painted nipple pink!

I don't give a shit about political correctness, but unfortunately excessive noise will eventually cause the demise of many of the tracks as they become besieged by urban sprawl! The end of motor racing as we know it. We don't really want to be party to that.

[Wal Will]

For a discount Nipple Pink it is.
Is there locked in dates for next seasons SIFF - we might as well start pushing it from today on.

[Russ Noble]

If cars look similar, and also sound similar, when only an expert can tell which is which (and I certainly can't, even though I have been a spectator since FF began), then trying to educate Joe average on the finer points is not going to be very easy.

I think you're right. I can't tell the difference between the Falcodores. Quite frankly because I'm not interested and couldn't care less. The same must apply to FF for most people....


You are 100% correct, you are not going get people waving Elden/Crossle/Valour flags, which then means you have to come up with fairly full grids, as we have all seen fantastic wheel to wheel dices over the years.

So we've come full circle. We need more on the grid. I think we've covered all the options in the discussion to date, none of which appear at this stage to be goers due to entrenched positions of key players.

At this stage I give up, secure in the knowledge that in the Mainland we don't actually need a Tier 1 Championship. We have our own championship.

I guess there is nothing to stop the MSNZ FF Championship being SI only and piggy backing on the SIFF. There is a precedent for a one island MSNZ Race Championship in their two round Endurance Championship up north!

There again I don't think we would want MSNZ coming along and stuffing up the good thing we have got going down here!

[Russ Noble]

For a discount Nipple Pink it is.
Is there locked in dates for next seasons SIFF - we might as well start pushing it from today on.

I'm only the sponsor, not the organiser, but no locked in dates at this point as far as I am aware. I think we have to wait until the motorsport calender comes out. I think Ian said he was going to have a drivers meeting sometime this month. And I know he is keen to get everything finalised as early as possible and will already be working on next season's planning. Are you on his mailing list?

[Wal Will]

Russ, I have been informed a lot by the discussions on this site, and think it has been positive.
Surely now Formula Ford can be led from the bottom up with SIFF setting the rules as to only 2 way adjustable shock absorbers and no Data logging

[Russ Noble]

You would have to talk to the club about that.

Personally I feel we need to keep our cars in line with Sch. F so the up and coming guys can race their cars in the same spec in both championships. Otherwise a big spender would just swap shock types from one championship to the other. That would hardly be cost saving. And you and I and most others are not going to be running megabuck shocks and data loggers either. So whilst a good idea in theory, I don't think the reality would work, or affect us greatly.

From what Crunch says, I think there is a determination in MSNZ to try to limit these sort of costs so lobbying in that direction could be the better way to go.

[jim short]

I really dont know why some race fans put the FF down their lap times are as fast as the V8s the sound is OK ,the racing passing and drafting not seen in other classes is good providing you know what you are watching,and as I have said before its a long time since we have had these young ones progressing overseas and I dont think its all about money,money cant make a driver all that much better and give me four or five cars that are racing not follow the leader as some other classes do,just keep it simple

[crunch]

There again I don't think we would want MSNZ coming along and stuffing up the good thing we have got going down here!

We dont stuff EVERY thing up do we?:confused:

[Russ Noble]

You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment!

SIFF is a bit more relaxed format than Tier 1. I don't think most SIFF members would like to be running under Tier 1 rules with their potentially draconian penalties for minor infringements etc

[jim short]

Right on the buton Russ, mainly one man to blame,, no perhaps another two.

[Carlo]

Russ, I have been informed a lot by the discussions on this site, and think it has been positive.
Surely now Formula Ford can be led from the bottom up with SIFF setting the rules as to only 2 way adjustable shock absorbers and no Data logging

How do you stop people from using 3 or 4 way adjustable shocks in testing then removing or sealing the 3rd and 4th adjustment so that it cannot be used during the official parts of a race meeting? Perhaps a control 2 way adjustable shock absorber is the only answer.

[crunch]

How do you stop people from using 3 or 4 way adjustable shocks in testing then removing or sealing the 3rd and 4th adjustment so that it cannot be used during the official parts of a race meeting? Perhaps a control 2 way adjustable shock absorber is the only answer.

Only way and has to happen

[driftwood]

Just popped back to see the posts
1 stunned to read that you have prize money- i thought the last time i saw prize money at club level racing was when the kiwi flew over the cuckoos nest and mated with a Dodo !
2 Running modern FFords with Hysterical cars in not a problem except the older car driver who can win in his historic event will be P4 or 6 in a mixed grid but hey whats the crime just create classes with viable cut of dates so people can race similar era cars and maybe older car can harass a newer car
3 Ban data loggers Ban more than 1 way dampers go back to basics keep it simple
4 Nipple pink- i have pink mirrors on my modern VD2K kent car and I have for some odd reason a few pairs of pink boxer shorts and i have often displayed them whilst changing from civvies into the race suit

you just need to keep plugging away at FFord its the best formula for learning to race after karting ( ok F Vee same sorta thing but im biased) chase up cars in sheds with dust on so newbies can buy the car and join in
NZ is a large country with small population and you cant look at splitting FFord down too much into historic class classic class and modern racing we can in the UK cos we have 60 million people here and many circuits and series running
Then we have europe with different countries running some good series for cars of different ages
As for the comment about modern old and F Jnr cars all in 1 grid and speed differentials well ive never heard such bolx!!
I tested at snetterton in 93 in a Reynard 89 FFord whilst some euro F3000 wanna be was running his 93D round and i felt the ground rumble before i heard him or saw him
I tested thursday at donington in my F3 car and we had 5-6 FFord kents and zetecs on track with 8-15 second per lap difference. All you have to do is look in the mirror and use your head !!

[ERC]

Unfortunately driftwood, I have to agree, but if you choose to ignore the wishes of your drivers, you pay the price, whether you agree with them or not! There are occasions where they need leadership and there are occasions where you have to grin and bear it.

We have people in our existing race groups who moan about speed differentials, yet we still run handicap races that rely heavily on all drivers using their mirrors.

Interesting comments regarding prize money. I have old paperwork here that shows that Jim Clark was paid start money before he was famous, as were several other drivers, plus prize money down to 3rd place in all races.

Two points.


1) There were good paying crowds at the events in those days and meetings ran very profitably.


2) The cost of race entry fees in NZ has outstripped the rise in the cost of living by a considerable margin as track hire fees have also risen.


My first race entry fee in NZ at Pukekohe in 1985 cost me the princely sum of $25 when my salary was $26,000 a year.

The current race entry fee by most promoters has this year risen to $210, that is an increase of $840%. To have kept in kilter that would mean I would have to be earning $218,400. I wish...

That means that with no spectators paying to get in as too many grids are too small, drivers have to pay the full costs and even then, the club meetings are not exactly profitable.

We could pay prize money - if entry fees were to rise even more of course, or the numbers doubled, which is why I keep harping on so often about the need for better grids. At a classic level, I don't think that offering prize money is appropriate.

[Russ Noble]

2 Running modern FFords with Hysterical cars in not a problem except the older car driver who can win in his historic event will be P4 or 6 in a mixed grid but hey whats the crime just create classes with viable cut of dates so people can race similar era cars and maybe older car can harass a newer car


That's what we have found and is what we are trying to achieve in the SI.

To see how we have set it up see this:- http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?575-The-State-of-NZ-Motorsport&p=17946#post17946 and post #94 here :- http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?334-Formula-Ford&p=18542#post18542 This first season with the sponsorship has been relatively successful, but still with many potential competitors just keeping a watching brief. However, it looks as though for next season they may get off the fence and we will have increasing numbers of the older cars on the grid racing amongst themselves. Once one or two more step up then hopefully all their mates will follow them.

Unfortunately at this point in time the situation in the NI seems to be totally stuffed.....

[ERC]

I wouldn't worry too much about the NI & SI thing at all. If it works locally, go for it and who cares what the other island is doing? Probably 95% (total guess) of all drivers are never going to cross over anyway. Much as I'd love to race on the south island tracks, it is never going to happen.

[Racer Rog]

There has been some very good points made here on this thread, and I think we in the south have to thank Russ for fronting up and putting his money on the line, Its a pity that Ford dealerships could not put a little of the money they spend cutting down trees and pushing the end result into my letterbox telling me how good the latest ford wizzer is. But I still think we need to get a modern engine, and I go with the Honda here, one in every junk yard near you! the Kent engine can still run, but I don't care that many people say they are cheap to run, when you compare cost vs Honda, they cost more, and don't last as long, sure there are new parts now for the Kent, new cranks, alloy heads, different, ( but not good piston sets) start pricing these up and you have a Honda conversion. Now I'm not saying do away with the Kent, it still stays, but if the experience in the States is anything to go by, many would change, not because of performance, but of costs, I agree in limiting shocks, and I think these could be set by nameing about 4 makes, if my friend google is correct, so there is some choice there, as far as chassis goes, anybody can make their own, but these days its not that we could not do that here in Gods Own, I think its the design, not the actual build that would get most wannabes, but there are still people designing and making chassis overseas, Radon in the States has a new chassis built, VD, another Citation ( formally Zink) and some out of Europe. But one thing the class does need, and that is that it has to appeal to the young guys ( and their Fathers) and thats why I say it has to shift in terms of motive power, I don't see that staying with a Ford engine is a good option, as the new Eco boost and even the Durtec/ Zetec are very expensive and are not world engines, but there are a lot of good ideas being thrown up here, and maybe another good idea would be a new govening body for the Class, FF or what ever it maybe called, to throw some real support, and common sense ( lack of this in motorsport) as Russ has in the South, but the class has to be sold to the young guys, and not the old farts on this forum.
Roger

[Wal Will]

I wouldn't worry too much about the NI & SI thing at all. If it works locally, go for it and who cares what the other island is doing? Probably 95% (total guess) of all drivers are never going to cross over anyway. Much as I'd love to race on the south island tracks, it is never going to happen.

What's going on here? Hands up all the South Island drivers that have 'crossed the Ditch' to race in the North Island.

[ERC]

I am not saying that no one ever does Wal, as we know that is incorrect. In fact when I made my one and only visit to Teretonga, there were 15 drivers and cars from this neck of the woods, but for most of them, it was a one off "must do the Southern Festival of Speed" one day type of thing. They still represent a tiny small percentage of the regulars and doing it once does not make it a regular occurrence.

Apart from the Amon/McLaren/Hulme Festivals, again, one offs per year, we don't see many South Island cars around here either. More's the pity, but the costs, time and logistics basically pen us into our own islands, so my point was no more than in each island, there will be movers and shakers who will get a series or a class off the ground, catering for the locals. I see nothing wrong in that at all. I am pleased that FF has traction in the South Island, but there are many series in the north that are not replicated in the south and vice versa.

[Russ Noble]

the class has to be sold to the young guys, and not the old farts on this forum.
Roger

Yes, I agree, but the truth is that most young guys are more interested in racing their WRXs and Evos than a single seater. They will never race single seaters. FF's appeal is to a youngster out of karts as a stepping stone to TRS and eventually F1. Although many of their aspirations get derailed after a few years and they settle for Supercars or other tintops. That's when reality sets in and they find they can make a reasonable living relatively easily in those classes.

The appeal to these young guys is the stepping stone aspect, and close, competitive racing at the top. And a strong class with plenty of entrants and contained costs is what is required. We have to provide the right frame work for that.

I agree with everything in your last post.

WRT crossing the ditch, there is quite a bit of traffic both ways if you look around. I have done it in the past as have many others. It's time consuming and costs a few bob but in the overall scheme of things it's not too bad.

[crunch]

Roger; do you own a Honda dealership or Honda wrecking yard?
Think I can safely say that the Honda is not an option for the National Championship Formula Ford in the future. However; what the SIFF and the FF Assoc want to run at other meetings is up to them.
Why would you want to incur more costs such as a change in powerplant when all they seem to want is stability. You are also wrong about the non-availability of good pistons.
Maybe start a Formula Honda thread?

[Russ Noble]

Crunch, I'm not a spokesman for SIFF but I can't see SIFF departing from the National Championship Formula Ford regs. If you are saying the Kent is here to stay, at least for a little while, then stability is good.

As for NZFF Inc, I don't think they have any meetings do they? That is the problem....

However there was talk about a replacement Formula Ford class and none of those that have been raised ie Zetec, Ecoboost, or a completely new junior Formula Toyota, none of those is suitable for the NZ scene, for all the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread. And in that context the Honda is the only one that ticks the right boxes for NZ, because the Kent does have its drawbacks. That, I think, is all Racer Rog is saying.

If there is a decision to change, then it has to be Honda at this point in time.

Also, in the absence of support from Ford, I think consideration should be given to renaming it the NZ Formula F Championship

[crunch]

Also, in the absence of support from Ford, I think consideration should be given to renaming it the NZ Formula F Championship

...or any sponsor that wants to pay the money?

[Oldfart]

Also, in the absence of support from Ford, I think consideration should be given to renaming it the NZ Formula F Championship

As it was in the beginning!

[Russ Noble]

...or any sponsor that wants to pay the money?

Ah, the Nipple Pink Championship! LOL

How about someone sets up a NI series, finds a sponsor for it and then have MSNZ give that sponsor the NZ naming rights as a bonus? There has to be a bit of lateral thinking involved if we are going to pull FF out of the mire.........

Whilst there would be no money going directly to MSNZ, a set up like that would do more for FF than just selling the NZ naming rights would. And presumably they haven't been able to do that anyway in the last year or so! So really no skin off their noses, but a big boost to FF should it happen.....

Regardless, it's time to take the Ford name out of it.

[Russ Cunningham]

Ah, the Nipple Pink Championship! LOL

How about someone sets up a NI series, finds a sponsor for it and then have MSNZ give that sponsor the NZ naming rights as a bonus? There has to be a bit of lateral thinking involved if we are going to pull FF out of the mire.........

Whilst there would be no money going directly to MSNZ, a set up like that would do more for FF than just selling the NZ naming rights would. And presumably they haven't been able to do that anyway in the last year or so! So really no skin off their noses, but a big boost to FF should it happen.....

Regardless, it's time to take the Ford name out of it.

AGREE!!!!

[Racer Rog]

Well Russ, and in capital letters as well, and Crunch you know well Ive got a couple of those engines sitting in the shed!, jokes aside I think when looked at in the cold light of day, at this point if there was to be an engine change at this point in time, the Honda holds all the cards, this could change, if a better option came up, but Honda have put their hands in their pockets and developed a solution, has Ford?
Roger
AGREE!!!!

[Grant Ellwood]

Well Russ, and in capital letters as well, and Crunch you know well Ive got a couple of those engines sitting in the shed!, jokes aside I think when looked at in the cold light of day, at this point if there was to be an engine change at this point in time, the Honda holds all the cards, this could change, if a better option came up, but Honda have put their hands in their pockets and developed a solution, has Ford?
Roger

I attended an SCCA event in Virginia last Friday, most of the FFs were running Honda engines. Chatting to one of the car owners, his view was that the Honda required less maintenance than the Kent (no lapping the valves between qual and Race). Appears there will soon be no Kents running and at that stage they will remove the parity restrictors which will give (I think) about another 18 reliable HP. The Kents and restricted Hondas were very even in lap times so I believe they would work well in NZ, drivers could keep the Kents without worry of falling behind speed-wise and the older cars wouldn't lose their period configuration.

[Russ Noble]

I attended an SCCA event in Virginia last Friday, most of the FFs were running Honda engines. Chatting to one of the car owners, his view was that the Honda required less maintenance than the Kent (no lapping the valves between qual and Race). Appears there will soon be no Kents running and at that stage they will remove the parity restrictors which will give (I think) about another 18 reliable HP. The Kents and restricted Hondas were very even in lap times so I believe they would work well in NZ, drivers could keep the Kents without worry of falling behind speed-wise and the older cars wouldn't lose their period configuration.

Exactly!

[driftwood]

what is this lapping in valve between quali and race??
valves are in for the season just like the crank pistons

[Russ Noble]

I haven't actually seen that happening here, maybe in the States where they go overboard with everything! Grant was just making the point that they are a high maintenance unit to keep at peak power, and that is true.

[Carlo]

what is this lapping in valve between quali and race??

We used to do that years ago when chasing the NZ Championship with a couple of cars that we were engineering but that was back in the days of no or very poor air filters, poor quality fuel and cement being used to soak up oil spills around the circuits

[Racer Rog]

So what has changed?
Roger



We used to do that years ago when chasing the NZ Championship with a couple of cars that we were engineering but that was back in the days of no or very poor air filters, poor quality fuel and cement being used to soak up oil spills around the circuits

[Barry]

Maybe people like Russ Noble who actually race know what is going on here after all. The only work we did on our engine during the season was because of overheating caused by the lime on the track at Hampton Downs blocking the radiators. I suppose the Hondas don't give problems when they are overheated either.

[crunch]

what is this lapping in valve between quali and race??
valves are in for the season just like the crank pistons

Exactly. This is the sort of statement that turns people off the formula. It is no longer true that you have to do this to a current Kent engine. Carl might have done it in his day but that was 30 odd years ago?? and today's engine specs have fixed this.

[beowulf]

Exactly. This is the sort of statement that turns people off the formula. It is no longer true that you have to do this to a current Kent engine. Carl might have done it in his day but that was 30 odd years ago?? and today's engine specs have fixed this.
I remember seeing people whip the head off and lap valves between races. I think that the head that should have been
worked on was the drivers. Ratio changes between races was also common, especially if the wind changed. That may still happen. There was at one stage talk of a Formula Datsun. A Datsun 1600cc ohc motor running in a FF chassis through a Hewland box. A few more horsepower and better reliability. One car was converted and ran at Bay Park I can't remember when. Dave McKinney will know. Ford came to the party straight away with better sponsorship. Will history repeat itself? And how many FFs are running Datsun cranks now? Or have I a suspicious mind?

[Kiwiboss]

Hi Guys, Most that know me know im a "tin top" guy but i luv all Historic and Classic Motorsport and have been following this posting with great interest!! I see the same struggles with FF that other groups are having except that FF is a more defined class, in other-words small changes make a difference as outwardly to the average guy(like me) they look the same(unlike Saloons) and on the track I wouldn't know one from the other unless it physically looks different so i struggle between whats Historic and Modern and couldn't careless about what the engine is, its the competitive race that i like and knowing that these youngsters are giving it there best shot(EG: while dad laps the valves in the spare head in the pits to change between races, LOL)!!

But i can see that the old kent engine has run its course(not talking Historic FF here) in "Modern Motor Racing(Tier 1)" and does need to be modernized but why argue(seems to be the Kiwi way) and reinvent the wheel when its all in front of you, so i agree with Roger(to some degree) the Yanks have already done the homework, sorted all the issues and problems and converted over to Honda so to do so down here would be a no brainer(and cheaper), now im sure their is other issues i don't fully understand but surely alighning one of our main youngster tier 1 groups to whats used in the USA where most/some will want to head too as they push to be come professional surely has to be a great idea and should be considered, apples for apples!! and also with our higher $$$ this allows interested dad's and others to simply import a complete FF out of the US helping build the fleet, is this not what we want? even in our fledgling HMC group 3 historic race cars have been imported to compete, this i didn't expect and it has attracted a whole new person into our HMC class rather than pinching other competitors(offcourse im talking us older generation here but same principal).

Also, these youngsters are hip with modern technology and to them, to have a "Honda" bla bla engine in dads FF that they race would be considered COOL, a bit of a talking point with the young chick-a dee's and afterall most/some drive a Honda road car a bit hot roddered like we did when we drove Anglias, Cortinas, and after all a harping kid pestering dad about a Honda FF race car would surely help revive the class!! We gotta think how the kids see it?

Anyway, those are my thoughts and im sure others of greater knowledge can add to this.

Dale M

[driftwood]

Kiwiboss has some merit in his posting as i do see a bit of the "the world is flat" in some of our posts when the world has now been circumnavigated !

Lets look at the FFord thing from the youngster perspective
is the Honda more appealing?
will honda NZ/Aus put in some $$ to promote the series or give out sealed new motors to series entrants
what is the cost to convert the modern cars?
does it out way the cost of staying with Kent motor in 2 seasons (I assume 8-10 meetings per season)?
do you convert to slicks for F Honda or stick to treaded FFord tyres
If honda supply bog standard motor with a off the shelf dry sump kit and ecu the motor can be "monitored" for parity and cheating
seal the head to block seal the sump to block seal the ecu to chassis
maybe seal the block to chassis clamp it down to stop internal access and the racing will be cheaper and policed will
Look at F1 they now have 1 ecu supplier FIA can look into each car
F3 is the same with Bosche 3.1 system used last 12 years
make F Honda 1 make 1 way damper
F Honda engine fitted to post 93 cars so the post Kent chassis are used and Vd2k car owners can sell their kents to Historic classic racers and VD90 92 car owners
If post 93 car owner wants to run with kent engine in F Honda make that a B class
look at the weight limits of car with Honda and kent car bring in some parity
after all NZ is a country with 60 million sheep and 3 million think they are human so you cant just sweep all aside and have 8 car national FFord championship with 6 ex pubescent karters over zealous dads and Kenny Smith racing
You need to draw in local jimmy and tommy with their 78 86 92 or 2k kent car to run at the local rounds they can economically get to

Maybe its time to have Kent and Honda ( or similar concept engine) single seater series and keep as close to tradition as the Walter Hayes 1968 concept
BTW i think Ecoboost looks crap the whole notion is yuk we have too many slick wing formulas up in the northern colonies and I am sure Walter would disapprove:mad:

[Carlo]

Exactly. This is the sort of statement that turns people off the formula. It is no longer true that you have to do this to a current Kent engine. Carl might have done it in his day but that was 30 odd years ago?? and today's engine specs have fixed this.

Yes, 30 years ago circuits were a skating rink from oil leaks and engine blow ups from all classes racing and as a result they were often given a heavy coating of cement during a meeting and this was very hard on engines as most were running without any form of air cleaner. That does not happen to such an extent today and todays air filters keep the engine clean. Same has happened with rally engines, 30+ years ago valve grinds after every event was common due to dust entering the engine but today it is a non event primarily because of the quality of the air filter.

[ERC]

We have moved on driftwood. Now 4 million people and a lot fewer sheep...

I think Dale's point about the Honda appealing to the young is an excellent point. Sad to say, but those of us who grew up with Minis, Fords, Hillmans/Humbers etc., need to accept that to the youngsters, even Ford is no longer cool, as Honda, Subaru and Nissan, possibly Toyota and Mazda are indeed what they now identify with.

It appears to be a no-brainer but there is nothing stopping a choice or even running in two classes until such time as the Fords fade from the scene - or qualify as Historics.

[Grant Ellwood]

Exactly. This is the sort of statement that turns people off the formula. It is no longer true that you have to do this to a current Kent engine. Carl might have done it in his day but that was 30 odd years ago?? and today's engine specs have fixed this.

Well not exactly, there are /were a few clever engineers who machined inclined valves, subtle angles, but needed lapping to keep the compression in check. I'd like to say that I had done it myself but ......

[Carlo]

clever engineers who machined inclined valves, subtle angles, but needed lapping to keep the compression in check. .

Shhhh......!!

[rf84]

So, given the present state of FF (5 entries at the last Championship round at Taupo), how many people are going to take the gamble on it's future and import a Honda powered car or conversion kit from the USA?

[jim short]

I wonder how it ever started if thats the case????
So, given the present state of FF (5 entries at the last Championship round at Taupo), how many people are going to take the gamble on it's future and import a Honda powered car or conversion kit from the USA?

[Grant Ellwood]

So, given the present state of FF (5 entries at the last Championship round at Taupo), how many people are going to take the gamble on it's future and import a Honda powered car or conversion kit from the USA?

I can recall the same sentiments when FF started with the pre-crossflow then when the crossflow was introduced there was a lot of hand-wringing. progress, love it or hate it! Personally I'd stick with the Kent but I'm not eighteen anymore (like Cunningham...)

[rf84]

Good point Jim. Like a lot of classes it was a "grassroots" beginning i.e. it started as a result of 1 or 2 individuals building cars and racing them. The same happened with Formula Vee when Barry Munro built the very first car in NZ and raced it against the 1.6 National Formula cars. The Vee was so slow in comparison to the National Formula cars it was almost laughable. But the class caught on and flourished.
Currently there are 5 relatively modern FF's on "Trademe". If they were added to the grid of 5 that turned up at Taupo it would be a half reasonable grid. Question is what is needed to get them out there?

[crunch]

So, given the present state of FF (5 entries at the last Championship round at Taupo), how many people are going to take the gamble on it's future and import a Honda powered car or conversion kit from the USA?

Personally; I wouldn't. The whole Honda thing is, at best a veeeeeery long shot for the NZ FF Championship

[crunch]

We need to stick with what we already have here in NZ, and attract those back. Would purely prizemoney/startmoney do that?

[Russ Noble]

So, given the present state of FF (5 entries at the last Championship round at Taupo), how many people are going to take the gamble on it's future and import a Honda powered car or conversion kit from the USA?

Crunch has stated in the short term that the Honda is not likely to be an option at this point in time, so I don’t see anyone taking the Honda route until it is incorporated in the regs. Then I think the uptake would be quite high. But that is something to keep in mind for the future. It is not really what is ailing FF today. We need to get existing Kent engined cars out and racing. After that maybe look at Honda or some other option down the track.



Currently there are 5 relatively modern FF's on "Trademe". If they were added to the grid of 5 that turned up at Taupo it would be a half reasonable grid. Question is what is needed to get them out there?

Yes, and four of those on the grid had come up from the SI. Getting the NI cars out there is what we keep coming back to!

Not only the ones on Trademe but there must be another couple of dozen similar cars in sheds all round the country that need to be enticed back into competition. And that’s just the Class 1 cars.

Then there are the older ones that qualify for the Class 2 championship for Pre-93 cars. At least another couple of dozen. There are plenty of cars there, they just have to be got onto the grid

Just re-emphasising one of my earlier posts:-


Why is it that southerners currently find themselves the mainstay of, and leading competitors in, the FF class?? Certainly not because they are all spending megabucks, quite the opposite generally.

What is different between the North and South Islands?

The main thing that I can think of, is that we currently have a six round SIFF championship, As I have stated before, it is a serious championship and provides competitive seat time before embarking on the National Championship.

The northerners lack anything remotely similar.

That in my view is the major reason the North Islanders are not supporting the FF Championship. If there was a successful FF northern racing infrastructure outside the National Championship then there would be cars and competitors to draw upon. As it is there is nothing.

Sorry, I’m starting to sound like a broken record on this one, but it’s all too easy to say the demise of FF is due to excessive costs. The South Island has proved that this is not so. It’s the lack of racing in the NI that is the problem.

Now, how can that be addressed?

Does anyone even want to address it?.



Also MSNZ, if they aren’t already, need to be promoting FF directly to the karting fraternity. Particularly by countering the misconception of excessive costs. Possibly they could also offer an inducement to the winner of the top karting class, for instance waiving entry fees for the winner and having that as part of the karting prize for the winner. Having access to, and the ear of, these guys would pay off handsomely one would think. Nevertheless there would always be the odd one coming through anyway. A prize and the attendant promotion would no doubt make others think about going down the FF track.

[Russ Noble]

We need to stick with what we already have here in NZ, and attract those back. Would purely prizemoney/startmoney do that?

I agree, and the major problem is the dozens of eligible cars out there that are not appearing. In my opinion, as stated before, if you don’t want to cross the Strait it’s not worth preparing (or even owning) a car for only three meetings. There need to be more meetings available in the NI. I don’t think prizemoney/startmoney (although it would be good) in the National Championship would have a lot of effect, but I think what I have outlined below would.


How about someone sets up a NI series, finds a sponsor for it and then have MSNZ give that sponsor the NZ naming rights as a bonus? There has to be a bit of lateral thinking involved if we are going to pull FF out of the mire.........

Whilst there would be no money going directly to MSNZ, a set up like that would do more for FF than just selling the NZ naming rights would. And presumably they haven't been able to do that anyway in the last year or so! So really no skin off their noses, but a big boost to FF should it happen.....

Regardless, it's time to take the Ford name out of it.

It’s now a manpower and legwork thing. Someone needs to contact the NI owners and get an undertaking that they would support a NI series. Then go to the promoters and get venues. Then go to MSNZ outlining what is proposed and see if they would give naming rights to the NZFF championship as a bonus for a sponsor who would support the NI series. Then, as the icing on the cake, find a suitably altruistic sponsor, probably someone already involved in motor racing who would be prepared to put up a prize fund to further entice competitors.

But it needs someone to do it. If someone doesn’t step up then nothing will happen and all these cars will continue to lie around unused and the NZFF championship will continue to rely on mainly SI participation.

[ERC]

Chicken and egg. How do you entice a sponsor with tiny fields? What a sponsor needs for his/her outlay is something in return and that is generally exposure whether in the media or on the track and a grid of five is not going to work.

For whatever reason, I don't think all is rosy in the motorsport world and the reasons are many and varied.

Without contacting every single one of our own drivers, to find out why they are not racing this weekend, (I have heard from quite a few with cars under repair, mechanically and bodily), I can only guess. It is our own meeting with double points (not that anyone cares about points!) and we have only managed a third of all registered competitors.

Historics (with FF) have managed just 13 cars - not a financially viable grid. With practice and 3 races for $180, that is one of the lowest entry fees of the season and just the same amount of track time as a two day meeting, but with less hanging about.

Maybe attending a two weekend festival takes too much of a chunk out of the race budget in the middle of summer, so autumn/winter meetings take a distinct second place?

Are there just too many classes and some people being too precious, wanting their own sandpit, yet oblivious to the financial strain on organisers? As at today, with entries now closed, I can't see us breaking even this weekend even with costs trimmed to the bone, as half the six grids are making a loss.

Certainly at this stage, I can't see me promoting a meeting next year, as it just isn't worth the stress or the cost, especially as one of the three non-paying grids wouldn't even consider combining with one of the others at the planning/invitation stage. Even if they did combine, the grid would only be half full and half of them are only paying $30, as they are already in one of the other classes.

Without a bit of commitment, neither series nor championships, even for choccy fish, are working at the moment.

There must be a reason why so many FFs are in sheds but unless the owners front up with their reasons, we'll never really know and guessing is pointless. One assumes that most of them are not on this website...

[Wal Will]

Crunch seems pretty definate about the Honda motor not being on the horizon.
It is not a 5 minute fit into an existing car to have one as an example, but I guess a brave fellow could import an already converted car from the U.S. and run it on club days under Formula Libre so that it could be evaluated by interested parties for future reference.

[Racer Rog]

I'm sure Crunch has shares in a Ford dealership, but my Honda shares are performing better, and have greater long term prospects, but you are right Wal, I think if some brave soul would bring one into the country, I'll bet it would get a lot of attention.
Roger


Crunch seems pretty definate about the Honda motor not being on the horizon.
It is not a 5 minute fit into an existing car to have one as an example, but I guess a brave fellow could import an already converted car from the U.S. and run it on club days under Formula Libre so that it could be evaluated by interested parties for future reference.

[Carlo]

Are you going to have your car out for an airing on April 28th Roger?

[crunch]

I'm sure Crunch has shares in a Ford dealership, but my Honda shares are performing better, and have greater long term prospects, but you are right Wal, I think if some brave soul would bring one into the country, I'll bet it would get a lot of attention.
Roger
Daughter works for one...but they are a Suzuki motorcyles dealership as well...maybe one of those high reving motors are an option????

[John McKechnie]

Thats basically Star cars without bodies ,Crunch?

[crunch]

...or Formula Suzuki....

[Kiwiboss]

Well this brings out another issue, which im not sure's been mentioned here? but are today's kids and dads doing the Dad/Go Kart thing and them just by-passing FF and moving up to tin tops like the new Honda Cup or maybe another open wheel class's(whatever that may be) i mention this because its a forever changing world and a class like Honda Cup may possibly be more attractive and affordable,(as is E30's) and as i've mention before the kids are "hip" with these sorts or cars?????

Just thinking out loud here!!! because if we have all these FF's scattered around NZ and parked, whats the reason?

Dale M

[Racer Rog]

No Carl, the wheels are still not attached to rest of it, and I have got to go down to Oamaru, to see Dug and get the rest of the drawings for the chassis repairs, og and make some more money, but will be down on the 27th
Roger


Are you going to have your car out for an airing on April 28th Roger?

[Racer Rog]

...or Formula Suzuki....

Not a bad idea, but they are already out there, and I would have thought they clash with TRS, given that they are wings and slicks, and could be faster than TRS.
Roger

[paul lancaster]

Hi rogers, what about an ff2000 class , running as they did overseas and not monoposto, there's already enough cars in nz, and compared to a class 2 ff, they are cheap as chips, especially the way the dollar is at the mo.wings n slicks class, cheap to run, surely a great stepping stone to trs etc. Paul

[rf84]

Sorry Paul but I disagree. We already have far too many classes in NZ (see my Thread "How many classes?") and adding yet another is going to make matters worse. It is highly debatable whether the FF2000 class would be cheaper than FF1600.
Agree with Dale. We need to find out why all the existing FF1600 cars are parked up.

[paul lancaster]

Just a thought man.as commentator at levels, I have slowly seen my favourite class(single seaters), decline in numbers.an explanation is unknown, engines are getting harder to get, but I have one question,w hen is nzff going to take on the zetec engine, as the rest of the world has done, the old Kent 711m plants have served ff well, and I think it's time to move on engine wise, we could run ffs of all ages, new and old, running the same engine, bringing the focus back to the driver, not the 10k Kent engine built by specialist engine builders.just a thought guys, we need to do something.

[driftwood]

The Zetec engine is old hat came into FFord in UK in 93 and went out in 2004? it was unloved and was only used in UK and the Benelux championship ( Belgium and Holland)
The Duratec replaced the Zetec for 3 years then Ford in their effort to promote yet another motor put the eco boost turbo motor into FFord last year
Ford do not offer any deals or prize funds yet dictate what goes on in UK FFord
There is no reason why classic historic FFord cannot keep using the Kent engine but you need to look at the local scene and ask the drivers of modern FFord cars ie 1990 onwards what they want to use Kent or a modern replacement to be the base for a National c/ship then work out a NI and SI series and then something at year end like the Festival where all come together but if you are only getting 5 or 6 drivers wanting to run in a c/ship then you need to find sponsor prize money promotor to gee things along with an end of season prize and test drive in the next rung of ladder formula

The days have gone for you to warrant Driver to Europe but maybe you need to look at something similar

[Russ Noble]

It’s now a manpower and legwork thing.

1.) Someone needs to contact the NI owners and get an undertaking that they would support a NI series.
2.)Then go to the promoters and get venues.
3.)Then go to MSNZ outlining what is proposed and see if they would give naming rights to the NZFF championship as a bonus for a sponsor who would support the NI series.
4.)Then, as the icing on the cake, find a suitably altruistic sponsor, probably someone already involved in motor racing who would be prepared to put up a prize fund to further entice competitors.

But it needs someone to do it. If someone doesn’t step up then nothing will happen and all these cars will continue to lie around unused and the NZFF championship will continue to rely on mainly SI participation. (Numbers and bolding added to quote for clarity)


Chicken and egg. How do you entice a sponsor with tiny fields? What a sponsor needs for his/her outlay is something in return and that is generally exposure whether in the media or on the track and a grid of five is not going to work.

Glad you think that's the problem Ray!

Since you haven't queried them, do you think achieving the three steps outlined above which precede the sponsorship approach, is relatively doable then?

[Russ Noble]

then work out a NI and SI series and then something at year end like the Festival where all come together

That would be great.

But the problem is that there is currently no series in the NI. Much to the detriment of the National Championship. This is what needs to be addressed for the survival of the FF Championship as a truly National Championship.

[AMCO72]

Nah.........as Custaxie50 says....... if it hasn't got a V8, forget it.............LoL.

[Russ Noble]

Gerald, thanks for such a positive, insightful, and relevant contribution.

[Racer Rog]

The points that you make Russ, are not unreasonable, and make a lot of sense, maybe if Gerald channelled his computer skills more positively we would achieve all that.
Roger

[AMCO72]

I shouldn't have to explain myself, but I will. The little 'LoL' that I put at the end of my 'comment' means..........No everybody on the roaring season knows what it means. Several posters use it regularly, kiwiboss being one. When we see an LoL at the end of a comment he has made we all know exactly where he is coming from......ie, a ' tongue in cheek' throw-away line.
So lighten up fellas, and I will try to improve my computer skills to match those of others..........LoL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[crunch]

Not a bad idea, but they are already out there, and I would have thought they clash with TRS, given that they are wings and slicks, and could be faster than TRS.
Roger

I was joking....

[crunch]

...oh; I forgot to put a LOL on the end!

[ERC]

Russ. Just back from a long, often very wet day at HD. Beowulf managed a win the last race of the day for Historics! He's a happy chappy.

No problem with your sequence, but in your situation the four steps may need to be condensed into two!

1) Contact all FF owners not currently running.

2) Ask WHY they are parked.

When and only when you have contacted them will the way ahead become clearer - but yes, someone needs to run with it initially.

One historic FF driver approached me today and said he'd be quite happy if the moderns were running and that obviously, the Historic FF's are divided. I believe I made the right decision this time, based on historical support, however, a grid of just 11 today lost us money, so the jury is out for an invite next year.

[driftwood]

I agree that the best solution is to contact all FFord car owners that have them resting in the garage and ask why they are not running
I can guess at a few answers as
1 No money to race Biz bad /recession etc
2 Got married/ had children
3 motor needs rebuild ( see 1)
4 been there seen it done it but not officially retired from racing/ maybe racing in another class
5 chicken egg i would race but there are no grids
this last reason is the one you are wanting to hear and can work off the rest you cant do much about

once you know who is where and might run then ask what do they wish for
how many events which tracks

Those that are in the reason 1-3 ( maybe 4 too) ask them will they want to race again or sell their cars
Now you are armed with info you can then go see the current racers in modern classic historics and ask what they would like THEN you can go to the organising race clubs and MS NZ and have a meeting to get a series going with promotion find a title sponsor generate publicity
It will not happen in 1x 12 month period it will take 1-2 season to kick start and IF any SI guys will come north across the Cooke straight to bolster some grids that is a start however remember iF the SI boys come north have the courtesy to send some NI boys down south for a meeting

One more comment i have to make is i have just looked through Trade me for FFord cars for sale and prices and your cars are expensive to me i dont know how it equates to kiwi wages lifestyle but i see cars at $60k that even if i work on either the old exchange rate of $3=£1 and the more current $2-£1 the cars are la la money
I have VD2k new motor last year 5 races and its worth around £12k= $25/27k ish
We have VD 90-92 cars for sale £12k ish race ready
My mechanic sold his VD04 car last year for £13500
i have seen some of your classic car prices (73-80 period ) and they are heading towards double UK prices
for you to ship import a car you have say $5k to add to the price

So maybe one problem is the cars are too expensive for new blood to purchase?
PS LOL !! and remember a Kent engine is half a V8 !!

[beowulf]

Russ. Just back from a long, often very wet day at HD. Beowulf managed a win the last race of the day for Historics! He's a happy chappy.

No problem with your sequence, but in your situation the four steps may need to be condensed into two!

1) Contact all FF owners not currently running.

2) Ask WHY they are parked.

When and only when you have contacted them will the way ahead become clearer - but yes, someone needs to run with it initially.

One historic FF driver approached me today and said he'd be quite happy if the moderns were running and that obviously, the Historic FF's are divided. I believe I made the right decision this time, based on historical support, however, a grid of just 11 today lost us money, so the jury is out for an invite next year.

Thanks Ray for a good day, thoroughly enjoyed myself although the numbers were poor.
Several questions. Where were all the Formula Juniors? And like the FFs where are all the sports cars?
Incidentally the "race" I won will go down in the annals of motorsport as one of the great races of all time. Three of us started in pouring rain, even the Pukekos who normally spectate had gone to cover. The leader spun into the kitty litter at the infield hairpin, so the two of us did three laps behind the safety car while he was towed out. Then the "race" resumed and we both cruised around to finish. To a standing ovation from the two spectators brave enough to watch. To add insult to injury the buggers had eaten all the chocolate fish. Congratulations to Craig who finished second, he is new to the sport and learnt a lot about wet weather driving.
We will be holding a signing session at Puke in a couple of weeks time.

[ERC]

I wasn't going to give all the details away Richard but Senna would have been proud of you! Two FJ's entered the meeting, one didn't pay, didn't say he was pulling out, didn't even make it to documenation (but was spotted spectating) - and poor old Walter couldn't get the Elva DKW running properly.

There is a lot of serious head scratching going on at the moment by a lot of people and I for one have a lot to sort out as regards ever promoting a race meeting again and also how to assess true support for the racing from paid up registered members of our own series and others'.

It is not just FF that is suffering at the moment through lack of solid, consistent support.

[Russ Noble]

One more comment i have to make is i have just looked through Trade me for FFord cars for sale and prices and your cars are expensive to me i dont know how it equates to kiwi wages lifestyle but i see cars at $60k that even if i work on either the old exchange rate of $3=£1 and the more current $2-£1 the cars are la la money

Those two cars are both late model Mygales, both championship winners. That is the asking price. They certainly have not sold at that. Both have probably got to be fairly negotiable.....


We have VD 90-92 cars for sale £12k ish race ready

I bought my VD92 this time last year for $18,000. I think that was top dollars for that too. A VD91 has recently sold for $12,000, so prices for these sort of cars not really out of line.

[Russ Noble]

Russ. Just back from a long, often very wet day at HD. Beowulf managed a win the last race of the day for Historics! He's a happy chappy.

No problem with your sequence, but in your situation the four steps may need to be condensed into two!

1) Contact all FF owners not currently running.

2) Ask WHY they are parked.

When and only when you have contacted them will the way ahead become clearer - but yes, someone needs to run with it initially.

One historic FF driver approached me today and said he'd be quite happy if the moderns were running and that obviously, the Historic FF's are divided. I believe I made the right decision this time, based on historical support, however, a grid of just 11 today lost us money, so the jury is out for an invite next year.

I agree with all of that Ray. And I am also conscious of the fact that with, say, twenty guys who give a firm commitment to support a series, you will be lucky if ten actually turn up! Bloody hopeless!

[Russ Noble]

From the “how many classes” thread


I agree.

I asked the following question to no avail in the FF thread.......

"Do any clubs in the NI have clubmans meetings?" These are basically mixed saloons grouped by capacity or lap times, plus a F Libre class which gathers together all singleseaters and sports cars in one group?


Plenty do Russ, i started with Taupo Car Club 20 years ago, they run a clubmans come winter series meetings off season, these are a whole lot of fun with little expense!! im pretty sure Manfeild does as well? these are generally not advertised but details are obtained by belong to that club!! a great way to start into Motorsport. Also back them i use to attend the likes of "Corvette club" and "Ford Muscle Car Club" track days, i believe these still continue, they great for lots of track time!! but at this "Club Level" its a "all in group" so no "fairness" in vehicle performance! I moved on once the excitment at this level waned.

Dale M

Thanks Dale. Then with promoters justifiably running gun shy about small grids, that might be the way forward in the meantime, try and get some of these dormant cars out to club meetings and build from there. Not difficult (in theory at least) to instigate an informal series to take place within the F Libre races over the season.

So maybe it’s not impossible ………?

But there will only be light at the end of the tunnel if someone up there has the willpower and the commitment to make something happen.

That may be the biggest ask……..

What about NZFF Inc? What role do they, or could they, have in all this?

[crunch]

Those two cars are both late model Mygales, both championship winners. That is the asking price. They certainly have not sold at that. Both have probably got to be fairly negotiable.....



I bought my VD92 this time last year for $18,000. I think that was top dollars for that too. A VD91 has recently sold for $12,000, so prices for these sort of cars not really out of line.

Numbers about right. VD's Good value for money. A spectrum for sale in Auckland for $24K

[paul lancaster]

Check out apexspeed.com for cars forsale, ff s 10k with great spares package, ff2000s 5k upwards.it's a prick of a site to get used to, but well worth it

[driftwood]

Those two cars are both late model Mygales, both championship winners. That is the asking price. They certainly have not sold at that. Both have probably got to be fairly negotiable.....



I bought my VD92 this time last year for $18,000. I think that was top dollars for that too. A VD91 has recently sold for $12,000, so prices for these sort of cars not really out of line. $12k kiwi is around £6k that is cheap if its a complete car i just paid 5500 for car with motor less bodywork exhaust as its sat for 8 years or more- only bought it as i had money burning hole in my pocket it will owe me £12k fresh powder coat chassis new floor body full rebuild etc once it hits the pitman to test
there is a 92 car here for £9250 that has just popped up for sale but it will still need few ££ spent to make it nice car often better to go buy the race ready fresh rebuild car off the man at £13k however the 08 Mygale is £25/30k our top Ray 08 car is around £18k on the grid the Vd2k car with new update kit is £20k plus your motor- Spectrum UK agent is struggling to sell new cars due to Ozzie $ £ ratio being against us but in general i do see the Kiwi cars as expensive against the UK market and the "up n running" usa cars seem cheap but once you pull them apart they are not good value

[Russ Cunningham]

$12k kiwi is around £6k that is cheap if its a complete car i just paid 5500 for car with motor less bodywork exhaust as its sat for 8 years or more- only bought it as i had money burning hole in my pocket it will owe me £12k fresh powder coat chassis new floor body full rebuild etc once it hits the pitman to test
there is a 92 car here for £9250 that has just popped up for sale but it will still need few ££ spent to make it nice car often better to go buy the race ready fresh rebuild car off the man at £13k however the 08 Mygale is £25/30k our top Ray 08 car is around £18k on the grid the Vd2k car with new update kit is £20k plus your motor- Spectrum UK agent is struggling to sell new cars due to Ozzie $ £ ratio being against us but in general i do see the Kiwi cars as expensive against the UK market and the "up n running" usa cars seem cheap but once you pull them apart they are not good value

There you are guys! Import a Ray. Great cars and terrific value. Agree, Grant Ellwood?

[driftwood]

I have 92 Ray on the button for sale champ of brands 93 c/ship winner £7k= $13k ish

[Grant Ellwood]

There you are guys! Import a Ray. Great cars and terrific value. Agree, Grant Ellwood?

Excellent cars and the late Bert Ray was great to deal with. The car we imported for Mike Hannel had a note written on the track side of the floor "if you can read this you have rolled our car". Probably it was Bert himself who wrote that wise observation.
Hey Russ, where is that car now?

[Russ Cunningham]

Excellent cars and the late Bert Ray was great to deal with. The car we imported for Mike Hannel had a note written on the track side of the floor "if you can read this you have rolled our car". Probably it was Bert himself who wrote that wise observation.
Hey Russ, where is that car now?

Still in NZ. Have to agree regarding Bert. Great guy!

[crunch]

Great news coming for the NZFF Championship. Fantastic that the SIFF group have decided to help get this class back where it should be.

[Russ Noble]

You up early for today or late from yesterday, Crunch?

SIFF AGM tonight and I was talking to Ian last week about some things I wanted to discuss at the AGM. He said "There will be some interesting ideas proposed for the club at the AGM" but didn't elaborate.

That makes the AGM even more interesting in the light of your revelations. Seems we are fortunate in the SI in having a pro-active club with an executive that in no small manner works tirelessly and effectively for the good of their members. And the National Championship too by the sound of it.

Can't wait to get to the AGM to find out details. . . . .

[crunch]

Always up until 3 or 4 in the morning, only time I get to do all the motorsport stuff without having 3 pre-schoolers "wanting to help"
Indeed; it will be a interesting AGM for you tonight, and thank them all.

[Russ Noble]

I'm sure we all appreciate your efforts Crunch.

Last night’s AGM was indeed interesting.

It appears there has been in recent months an un-announced working party from the upper echelons of SIFF looking at the problems facing FF in NZ and trying to find solutions. They have been working in consultation with MSNZ and NZFF Inc. and other affected parties.

As a result of their efforts, which are still and will be on going, a proposal was put to the SIFF AGM and carried unanimously. There will be a press release in due course and it is not for me to pre-empt that. Suffice to say that it incorporates many of the ideas expressed on this forum and then some.

As always though, it will need the competitors to get in behind these initiatives. But this whole revamp is a competitor based initiative and the plans which the working party have in place and ideas they are currently considering for flushing out more competitors will, in my opinion, go a long way to generate more and continued support for the class.

Today I feel the future of FF in NZ is assured and in good hands.

[ERC]

Good to hear Russ. Best of luck with it. Look forward to the press release. The one massive vote in favour of FF in any guise is its longevity and I think it is vitally important to have a 1600 single seater class not just in NZ but worldwide, both as a stepping stone and also as a destination it its own right, catering for both modern and older cars.

[rf84]

Sounds very positive Russ.
Given the track record of the media in NZ when it comes to motorsport, hopefully we can rely on you to inform us when the press release is made public?

[driftwood]

1 how many ideas are being utilised that have been put forward by a Pom?? !!
2 Sold the 92 Ray at the weekend locally

[Markm]

Hi there
I was directed to this post by an SIFF member as I have an interest in the future of the Formula Ford class and am the father of James Munro who won the championship this year.
I note there a number of comments referring to me , or my car so I thought it best to respond , in no particular order to some of these comments.

Formula Ford is very weak at present and has been on a downward spiral for some years , particularly since the GFC , and this is not just a New Zealand problem or a class problem , the Australians are struggling to put feilds together and have similiar numbers to ours.

The new FF class in England is the same even with Ford offering free entry to the first 15 cars .

So in a world of economic decline what can we do to get young drivers into the class?
Young karters who are the most realistic targets, have more options nowadays, with realistic options to make a career without leaving karting and competing internationally , in Rotax and shifter karts.
We have a number of drivers doing this

There is also the option of the tintop route , which probably excites young drivers more these days anyway.
if you look at classes like Suzukis , a majority seem to be ex karters who have probably decided that a career in single seaters is not an option as there are few drives even at the top level , that pay.
With tin tops a paid drive is realistic even in Super tourers and particularly Supercars.

There is discussion on this site that infers young drivers arent joining the class because of 4 way shocks and data loggers .
i think thats rather simplistic , we are not getting the karters to a point where they even consider it an issue that somebody might have more sensors on their datalogger or an extra adjustment on their shocks.

Having come from karting i can say their has simply been no promotion of Formula Ford by anyone and that is the nub of the problem, young karters arent aware that Formula Ford is an option.


MSNZ have dropped the ball and its good that the SIFF club , as per Russ Nobles comment have picked up the ball and hopefully it will start with a promotion campaign through the kart clubs followed by invitations to drivers from formula First.

Then it is appropriate to start looking at rules.
I personally believe the kent engine has had its day, Ford obviously do to, but any change needs to be signalled well in advance as surety of rules is important when making the purchase of a car.

there are those who say kents are reliable , but when you have young drivers learning and pushing to the limit , you are going to have a lot of bent valves which means more cost and time away from the track.
Im sure thats not a problem with older drivers but remember the basis of this class , was and is , a learners class to bridge the gap to the next level of single seaters , which leads on to data loggers.

Dataloggers dont drive cars .
they have exactly zero effect on car performance.

They have one purpose , and thats as a training tool for young drivers.
In every level of motorsport understanding data is make or break.
It would be a retrograde step to remove them as a learning tool for young drivers in a learning class.

if necessary limit it to engine functions , speed and brake sensors but dont imply those without dataloggers are at a disadvantage other than in learning progression of their drivers.

We ran 4 way shocks , because that was what was on the car I purchased.
i am ambivalent as to the desirability of banning them .
for us it would have been an extra expense that I didnt need , if I had to replace them ,and contray to a previous poster , you cant adjust them between rounds as they are sealed.
in any event they are to complicated to fiddle with unless you have full time shock engineers, which is why we only ever changed settings when it was wet.

James was quicker around Ruapuna with the Stealth he learnt in , which had 2 way Ohlins , so I dont think 4 ways are as big an issue as made out to be.

Finally there was a comment re some lala land pricing of some Mygales at $60k , on Trademe ,vs an RF92 from the UK at 13k pounds.
the UK car landed here is around $30 nz plus kent engine , which is far dearer than a number of RF92s here that have been converted to Stealths , which are light years ahead of an RF92.

Its also dearer than my car as the poster may not have noticed that my car on trade me at $55k includes more than $30k of spares.

The basic car is $25k which i think is quite cheap .

To conclude my rant I would reiterate my belief that problems with Formula Ford arent rules related they are in the main simply a lack of awareness in the class due to no promotion or marketing.
Hopefully that is about to be remedied.

[Howard Wood]

Well reasoned response Mark. You are absolutely right about the perceived career path for young drivers today. When FF started single seaters were the premier classes, not so today. I am staggered at the number of ex karters running in the BMW series, whether they see that as a viable career path or not I don't know, it certainly doesn't teach them very much about car set up etc.

You may well be right about data loggers being an integral part of all senior classes and therefore knowledge of them being important, however your justification of 4 way shocks cant be sustained by the same reasoning. If you are correct about not touching them between races there is no training element here, maybe only an imagined advantage but given that FF was conceived as a limited cost class any regulation which can easily reduce costs with no downside should be introduced.

Promotion of the class and a sensible race schedule to minimize travel between the islands, preferably with some kind of carrot such as a subsidized TRS drive is the key to reviving the class nationally. Lets hope this discussion helps that to happen.

[Markm]

Hi Brian

yes you are correct on shocks ,but in our case it was a simple matter of what was on the car.
It cost enough to get to the start line without having to purchase another set of shocks.
if they are to be banned it needs to be done early so people can plan ahead.

you raised a good point about a sensible race schedule ,
running over 6or 7 weeks costs the same as spreading it over 30 weeks say , but its much easier to budget that same amount over the longer period.
Minimising the travel Islands is difficult as its harder to get north Islanders to travel South and was the same in Karting and events like the Rotax challenge are only North Island based

[rf84]

Hi Markm
It is good to get your input re the cost and effort of running "modern" FF cars as you are the only one with knowledge of these matters to contribute to this discussion.
The cost of crossing the Strait seems to be a major deterrent to competitors. Maybe a once a year event (similar to the FF Festival in England) is the answer?

[Carlo]

It costs me between $260 and $280 each way on the ferry for 1 person, a Hiace van and a trailer complete with the rally car. I pay about the same as that for one tyre.

[Russ Cunningham]

Hi Markm
It is good to get your input re the cost and effort of running "modern" FF cars as you are the only one with knowledge of these matters to contribute to this discussion.
The cost of crossing the Strait seems to be a major deterrent to competitors. Maybe a once a year event (similar to the FF Festival in England) is the answer?

I think you may have missed that Barry Leitch has also contributed to this thread. Another man with knowledge of current costs, etc.

[driftwood]

ferry crossing
why not go to the shipping company and ask them to do a deal $100 FFord van trailer car to cross the sea to do the races and give them branding on cars or the festival title
Surely someone has the talent /charm /clout /balls to communicate with them MD/ Chairman to get a deal knocked out then get some TV news at 6 coverage of the deal Festival date title etc

[Carlo]

ferry crossing
why not go to the shipping company and ask them to do a deal $100 FFord van trailer car to cross the sea to do the races and give them branding on cars or the festival title
Surely someone has the talent /charm /clout /balls to communicate with them MD/ Chairman to get a deal knocked out then get some TV news at 6 coverage of the deal Festival date title etc

Motorsport does get a 10% discount on both the ferry services as does just about every other sporting activity in NZ. They do not favour one sport above another.

[driftwood]

its better than a kick in the pants but is it enough to generate 2 way traffic to race and gee up folk to make the effort?

[Russ Noble]

Last night’s AGM was indeed interesting.

It appears there has been in recent months an un-announced working party from the upper echelons of SIFF looking at the problems facing FF in NZ and trying to find solutions. They have been working in consultation with MSNZ and NZFF Inc. and other affected parties.

As a result of their efforts, which are still and will be on going, a proposal was put to the SIFF AGM and carried unanimously. There will be a press release in due course and it is not for me to pre-empt that. Suffice to say that it incorporates many of the ideas expressed on this forum and then some.

As always though, it will need the competitors to get in behind these initiatives. But this whole revamp is a competitor based initiative and the plans which the working party have in place and ideas they are currently considering for flushing out more competitors will, in my opinion, go a long way to generate more and continued support for the class.

Today I feel the future of FF in NZ is assured and in good hands.

As signalled earlier, there are some exciting developments and undertakings for this class. There will be an official press release in the next couple of days, so watch this space

[Carlo]

As signalled earlier, there are some exciting developments and undertakings for this class. There will be an official press release in the next couple of days, so watch this space

Have just been given a copy of the SIFF document Russ, quite excited by what I see. Magic effort and undertaking from all concerned

[Russ Noble]

Announcement here http://nzmotorracing.co.nz/revamped-formula-ford-set-to-attract-large-grids-this-summer.html

And in a little more detail from the SIFF Club newsletter, but still abbreviated:-

SIFFC will manage and co-ordinate the NZ Formula Ford Championship from 2013/14 onwards

Motorsport NZ has approved our club as being the organiser for the coming national season. We also need to provide the coordinator to help bring life to the race day management of the class. The SIFFC Committee has provided MSNZ with a set of recommended changes to the 2012/13 articles and regulations. These are attached and will be highly interesting to you; in fact they might encourage you to go out and source a sponsor before entering the national series as well!

At a glance - significant features for the 2013/14 NZ FF Championship, and beyond include;

1. A 5 year moratorium for the Ford 1600 Kent engine beginning from 2013/14. This will be reviewed in 2016 so if changes are necessary a ‘fade in’ approach can be utilised.

2. Most current national FF championship rules remain unchanged. The cost of Formula Ford racing in New Zealand is a significant consideration as the attached table indicates.

3. A high level of motivation exists around encouraging drivers to race in Formula Ford. The 2013/14 changes should secure grids of between 20 and 30 cars consistently. The target is 25 cars or more at all rounds.

4. The Ace Hire South Island Formula Ford Championship will run independently but within the National Championship’s South Island rounds.

5. A new National Historic Formula Ford Championship will be introduced for cars that comply with the regulations. Successful in Australia and the UK, this Historic Class will add interest to the grids this summer. This will be known as Class 3 in the articles. Significant interest has been shown at the planning stages of this decision. Grid sizes will be positively influenced.


6. A variety of National Championship sponsors have been approached and are ready to support the national championship. While we are in a pre-advertising phase and class sponsorship arrangements are yet to be addressed, the following support is being prodigiously discussed.
a. A major tyre supplier
b. A significant car manufacturer
c. A test drive for the championship winner – which might extend to an international Formula Ford racing opportunity.

7. Where technical infringements occur a one warning approach is preferred; after which cars may not be eligible for championship points. The Championship co-ordinator will be included in such decisions so NZFFA assistance can be provided. We want cars to race within the spirit of the code.

New Members – an update.

Four new drivers have approached members of the committee with regard to joining SIFFC next season. One past member has indicated he would like to enter the new historic class.
2013/14 Membership Details
I will send out our new season’s membership details in a month or so but they will also feature on the SIFFC website.
Full Club Membership $100.00
Championship Fee $50.00
Associate Membership $50.00
The Associate Membership fee is new this year and is designed for those who would like to be affiliated to the club but not drive. This fee enables full participation in club activities including meetings and voting rights. Sponsorship regalia will be available so these members can promote our club and sponsors too.

SIFFC Website and Facebook
With James Dicey’s assistance a new website has been constructed. Once the Club Committee has critiqued this it will go live. In addition to this a Facebook page will also be used to carry the instant social media aspects of our racing. James is keen to receive images, videos and literature appropriate for our site. All material will be checked for accuracy, approvals and copyright before being used.
Please send material to James Dicey or myself. We are very grateful to James for his time and enthusiasm to help the club in this way.

James will continue to assist us as a media scoop and is interested in posting our race results etc as soon as possible after each event.

Promoting SIFFC

Mark Collins has put together a list of his real racing costs from last season and is happy for us to use these as part of an information brochure that will be available during promotional events and when driver enquires come through our new website. A target audience for this material will be Karting families and drivers. The Committee is interested in activating promotional displays of FF cars at major Karting events this summer, or earlier. Other suggestions are most welcome as would ideas related to this Karting focus.

2013/14 Race dates

I’ve set these and sent them to all the circuit managers for approval. Timaru has confirmed so I’m hoping the others will too. January will have two rounds (Teretonga and Levels) for SIFFC as part of the National FF Championship series – awesome but no dates yet from MSNZ. I will send the dates to you as soon as possible. There are 6 races this season but the committee will discuss adding a 7th race because there’s room in the calendar for one more. A robust pros and cons discussion will determine this outcome. Send me your thoughts if you wish. Because January will have two SIFFC rounds, our usual routine of having ‘about’ one race per month for 6 months will be accelerated.

ACE Hire – Title Sponsor – The Ace Hire South Island Formula Ford Championship

Russ Noble will sponsor our Championship for the second year. Substantial prize money will be distributed to drivers at the end of the season. The distribution will be governed by the number of drivers competing and the points they accumulate. All classes are included in this process. Cars will be required to ‘wear’ the appropriate decals and driver/engineers will be asked to wear ACE Hire caps around the pits and on pit wall. This year could be a significant opportunity for Russ to have his company logo displayed on a ‘grand’ scale. The website, car displays, televised races, race day programmes, race commentaries and many mores situations will arise. It’s very appropriate that we help to maximise these opportunities for him; not forgetting Russ will be racing too. Many thanks for your continued support.

SIFFC Archives

We have saved the content from our old website including the historical pages. A committee member will be working on the archives section of the new website so a very interesting and accurate account of our club’s history and the impact we have had on the careers of NZ racing drivers and racing engineers, will be available. If you have material, images, clippings or memories that could augment what we have already or add to it, please email me.

Regards
Steve Edwards
SIFFC co-ordinator

Anyone wanting the full details contact me and I will email the full PDF files

[Russ Noble]

Early days yet, but SIFF now has a new website up and running. Contains all the latest info, newsletters, next seasons race dates for SIFF and NZFF. And much more.

Trying to showcase FF and provide hard facts easily accessible to anyone about competing in FF. Also trying to promote FF through the social media. I'm too old to know anything about Facebook, Twitter etc but apparently it's the way to go. We have to thank SIFF committee member James for setting all this up. Check it out, details below......

"Hi All,

Just like to announce that the new South Island Formula Ford website has gone live over the weekend. Please check it out - your feedback and comments are welcome, as is content (news, photos - new and old, items for sale etc). It will be the prime place we publish the racing calendar, technical articles and regulations, communicate news and race results as well as act as a repository of relevant information.


http://www.siff.co.nz/


We have also created a Facebook page for more interactive updates and content - please "Like" the page to help build our online presence. It can be found at:


https://www.facebook.com/SouthIslandFormulaFord


We have also created a Twitter account as well as an Instagram account for the social media savvy amongst you... look for southiff on both platforms.


I welcome any comments, suggestions, feedback and particularly content on all these.

Cheers
James"

[Mark Elder]

I have just found this thread. I have a dog in this race so here is my 0.02cents worth. We all want to see our next young generation do well at Motorsport. Almost all of these result from father/son combos that come thru karting. By the time 2-3 years of karting have gone by, the son might be good enough, keen enough and the dad able to cope with chassis setups, tyres, engine stuff, trailers, going away to events, bacon and egg pie from mum etc etc. I would go so far to say that without a karting background, FF is a step too big for mortals.

The cost for father/son teams would not need to be much beyond a full karting season. Many such teams have podium finishes at SIFF and National level with engines I know were 3-5k in cost. Think of Barry and Brendon just this year, same last year. I do not think cost is the barrier to entries for our young ones.

I think the issue is marketing. This is a problem because no-one owns FF anymore. This is not the case with Suzuki or Toyota or the V8s. In our world, the marketing is left to ........

Luck has it that SIFF has taken this up and congrats to Russ and Steve and James. Fantastic.

Of course, this just affects what might be just 25% of a field at most (ie the young ones). Ian Bisman calculated that there are 100+ FF in the SI alone. I would love to know while they live in garages.

Mark

[Russ Noble]

Latest announcement on the News section on the SIFF website http://www.siff.co.nz/#!news/cgra

The National Secondary School karting Championship received a boost today - the winner of a class of the Championship and a 'spot' competitor who meets selection criteria will be given the opportunity to test drive a Formula Ford.



Formula Ford has traditionally been the stepping stone for successful kart drivers with aspirations to progress into high echelons of single seater racing. Previous F1 champions such as Ayrton Senna, Damon Hill and Michael Schumacher all got their start in single seaters in a Formula Ford. The cars are much more technical and complicated than karts and are a natural progression for aspiring race drivers. The South Island Formula Ford Club has worked hard to secure a fantastic prize of a test drive in a Formula Ford with Motorsport Solutions. Motorsport Solutions owner John Crawford has provided two prizes for the weekend so the lucky karting drivers can enjoy a free introduction to Formula Ford racing, including laps at Ruapuna.



A member of the South Island Formula Ford Club, Mark Collins (whose son Michael won the 2012-13 Ace Hire South Island Formula Ford Championship) has also organised a display of Formula Ford race cars to help promote the class.

[Maino]

Still in NZ. Have to agree regarding Bert. Great guy!

See link below for a couple of Ray's for sale in U.K. 80 & 84 cars.

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listing/49114/formula_ford_cars_engines_gearboxes_for_sale.html

[Russ Noble]

For anyone interested SIFF Club membership forms posted on the club website here. http://www.siff.co.nz/#!siff-membership/c235h.

Note this year there is also an Associate Membership at half price for non-competing supporters. The more interest and support we can get, the better.

Its looking to be an exciting season, lots of interest. All next seasons race dates for NZFF and SIFF are tentatively confirmed already, see the calendar here. http://www.siff.co.nz/#!calendar/cdub.

Anyone with a car they haven't raced for a while should dust it off and be part of the fun and action. We are trying to make running in either championship as hassle free and affordable as possible. Good prize money in SIFF, all the way down the field too! Get out and have a go :)

Example of the prize money structure based on the 2011/2012 results are shown at the bottom of the page here . http://www.siff.co.nz/#!articles-and-regulations/c1wzy. Obviously this season we are expecting better than 13 competitors, but the principal remains the same.

Because of the calendar some NZFF competitors from the NI are considering doing most of the SIFF rounds also. Next season for FF it just keeps growing better and better! You need to get in and be part of it. Four months to prepare your car, make the most of it. :)

[jamie]

Go High Pockets love Jamie A