NZ Historic Racing Saloons Group

[Steve Holmes]

OK, before anyone gets excited, NO, I am not looking to form a new historic motor racing category. Way too much of my time is already taken up with doing stuff that I don't get paid for without tacking on another volunteer role. This is purely out of interest, curiosity, and perhaps something I'd like to see happen one day, should someone be brave (crazy?) enough to step up and try and take this on. I really just want to stimulate some discussion.

I've noticed lately there is an increase in the number of old racing saloon cars, with history from the 1960s and/or 1970s, that are being restored and/or preserved and brought out to be enjoyed again in historic racing. Typically, saloon car racing is a little late on the scene compared to single seater and sports car racing, in which old cars with history are generating a lot of interest, being restored, and raced once more. With single seaters, in historic racing they usually only race against other single seaters with history. In saloon car racing, old cars with history are often mixed in with newly built cars specifically created for historic racing.

However, are there now enough old historic racing saloons in NZ that they could have their own race at a premier NZ racing event? A cut-off date would be required. Perhaps the end of 1973, as that seem to be around the time saloon cars started to race on slick tyres, and were designed around slick tyres. Its also the stage at which 'Sports Sedan' type cars began appearing, which quickly raised the performance bar.

So, lets say there was a cut-off date of the end of the 1973 NZ racing season. The cars eligible to race would have had to have raced (not necessarily in NZ) at some stage prior to that 1973 cut-off date. The category they may have raced in could be anything from Allcomers, to Group 2, to Group 5, etc. But they must have had a saloon car competition career prior to that 1973 cut-off date. Furthermore, they must now be presented as they were in period, at one specific time in their period, prior to that 1973 cut-off date. Many cars were raced up to and beyond 1973, and some even into the 1980s, and were evolved to keep pace with modern changes. These cars wouldn't be eligible, unless returned to their pre-1973 guise. Also, they must be fitted with either period correct cross-ply tyres, or DOT radials. No slicks.

The racing itself is purely for fun, for the entertainment of car owners and punters. No prizes for winners. Just the enjoyment of racing old cars with history.

So, just for fun, why don't we establish a role-call of existing cars that are either currently racing, or being restored to race, that fit this set of requirements. Replica's would be eligible, but only on the proviso the original car no longer exists, and the replica is an exact copy of the original.

Here are some I have thought of:

Jim Richards Willment Racing Escort
Paul Fahey Lotus Anglia Allcomer
Red Dawson Shelby Mustang
Ivan Segedin Mustang
Rod Coppins Pontiac Firebird
Jennings Special
Rod Coppins Zephyr Corvette (replica)
Ron Sylvester Chevy coupe
Rod Collingwood AMCO Mini Cooper
Clyde Collins A40 Farina Allcomer (replica)
Peter Bennett Lotus A40 Farina Allcomer
Garth Souness Morrari (replica)
Dave Simpson Lotus Anglia Allcomer
Sidchrome Hilman Imp
Spinner Black HK Monaro
Neil Doyle Anglia Corvette
Barry Phillips Lotus Cortina
Frank Hamlin Minisprint
Joe Chamberlain/Dennis Marwood Camaro
Paul Fahey Allan Mann Escort
Jack Nazer Cossack Escort
Red Dawson Kensington Carpets Camaro

OK, theres 22 cars to kick things off. What have you guys got?

[AMCO72]

Steve....interesting thread. My guess is there are a lot of old ex racers out there but nowhere to race them.
However you are starting to lay down some rules!!!!! You say they are to be as they raced in the 60's and 70's up to about 73, which as far as I am concerned is a great cut-off date........BUT they cannot race on slicks, and yet I'll bet that most of these old war-horses raced on slicks in their day. So why this weird anti-slick thing on cars designed and raced with these tyres. Surely it is not a monetry thing.....all tyres are expensive.

We have exactly the Dunlop tyres that the Amco Mini raced on in it's two seasons and yet we would not be able to use them, but instead some thinly disguised slick, masquerading as a dot rated road tyre. Take a look at the tyres on the under 3 litre class cars at the festival and you will see what I mean.

Also, are old style roll cages allowed or do they all have to be up to present specs......I think Rod Grimwood has this problem.

Are we all going to 'race' together? There are some BIG differences in performance in that group already, from the Sidchrome Imp upwards, but we would much prefer to race with a group like this instead of the present under 3 litre class.

But hey..I'm just a negative bastard.........this is a great idea, I hope it grows.

[Steve Holmes]

Its just a thought really Gerald, I'd personally love to see a field of old original cars all running together, even though they may not have all raced together in period. My reasoning for the non-slick thing would be that slicks were only just being introduced around the time of the cut-off period I gave, the vast majority of the cars on the list above would never have raced on slicks in period.

The performances of the cars listed above wouldn't be that vast, even the V8s would not be fast cars. Consider where the Segedin Mustang was when the Rat was driving it last year, or where the Dawson Mustang was at this years event in relation to your car. I'd hazard a guess your Mini would be one of the fastest cars in the field, with you at the wheel (assuming you haven't sold it?).

As for rollcages, well thats something quite outside the powers of anyone who creates a historic racing class. Anything to do with safety is governing body territory.

[Steve Holmes]

I should also say, that list of cars above, most are already racing in historic events somewhere around NZ.

[fullnoise68]

Steve, on paper it says `shit these would be good to watch' but in reality, as Gerald mentioned, the red tape, the politics, event organisers saying one thing and then doing the opposite, etc, would determine such a groups existance.
With HMC, the easiest option is to let the `actual' smaller cars, such as the Willment and Fahey Escorts, the Sidchrome Imp, Collingwoods Mini,etc, run with us, at selected meetings, because the rest apart from Bruces Firebird and Tonys Camaro,are as you say out on a limb at present.
This is why I think the potential to have two big `Period Historic' meetings a year, as in era/class correct such as the Allcomers you mentioned, is possible, and could happen if logic prevailed, once you`ve addressed the `arm band' brigade with a shotgun!

[John McKechnie]

Good to get the ball rolling on this Steve.However it may be a sticky one. Yes the cars are there, but who do the drivers want to share the track with. Keep them in their own group as a display and not combine with those outside this group. Keep them schedule K COD . Dont worry about the tyre debate, just get them out as they were or as they are now.

[Steve Holmes]

Steve, on paper it says `shit these would be good to watch' but in reality, as Gerald mentioned, the red tape, the politics, event organisers saying one thing and then doing the opposite, etc, would determine such a groups existance.
With HMC, the easiest option is to let the `actual' smaller cars, such as the Willment and Fahey Escorts, the Sidchrome Imp, Collingwoods Mini,etc, run with us, at selected meetings, because the rest apart from Bruces Firebird and Tonys Camaro,are as you say out on a limb at present.
This is why I think the potential to have two big `Period Historic' meetings a year, as in era/class correct such as the Allcomers you mentioned, is possible, and could happen if logic prevailed, once you`ve addressed the `arm band' brigade with a shotgun!

Yeah I know Steve, and it'll probably never happen, I don't know of anyone who'd want to take on such a headache of an idea. But it'd only be to get the cars all out together, no club, no series, none of that. Just a formation of old original cars that raced in period. Evan Munt managed to pull together a field of old original OSCA cars a couple of years ago for the 40th anniversary of OSCA.

Another one for the list: Alan Boyle Coke Viva

[Steve Holmes]

Good to get the ball rolling on this Steve.However it may be a sticky one. Yes the cars are there, but who do the drivers want to share the track with. Keep them in their own group as a display and not combine with those outside this group. Keep them schedule K COD . Dont worry about the tyre debate, just get them out as they were or as they are now.

Thats really up to the individual John. Do double duty if you want to, race both HMC and historic period saloons.

[AMCO72]

I have a sneaky suspision that the HMC boys dont really want us, the U3L, with them, and I fully agree. Although it was a stirring sight at the festival with all these cars mixed up, the fact of the matter is that it was a 'convenience' thing. I have no doubt in my mind that Dale and his boys will be able to field a full grid of proper Muscle cars next festival, or before.

Where does that leave the U3L brigade ?
Arthur Vowels is a bit worried that this class is not attracting many new entries, and I dont know what we can do to improve the situation. The theory is that spectators come to these events to watch. Maybe they race in another class now but see U3L as a better alternative and decide to have a go. You cant do anymore. If the racing grabs people they may be tempted to try it themselves.

But I think if it could be got off the ground as it were, the Historic saloon cars racing together would be magic. As you say a lot of these machines are already up and running, so is just a matter of getting them altogether.......yeh right!!!!!

By the way the 0-1000cc class were racing on Dunlop slicks for both the 70/71 season and the 71/72 season.
I refer you to the MSNZ manual no35 page 480 where it states clearly that a historic race car should compete on the rubber it was on in period.

The Amco Mini would be very happy tooling around with these guys. Howabout you also stipulate that the ORIGINAL driver/s do the driving!!!!!!!!!!!LoL

[fullnoise68]

Gerald, to add to my previous comments, and in regards to your `convenience' remark, 43 or 44 cars in our first race at the festival was just bullshit.That is why a select few such as the likes of your Mini -with you driving it - and the `actual' small cars of that era of NZ motorsport, such as the Willment Escort, are good to race with, so long as they are on the same enjoyment page. Sure with the interest in HMC and the projected growth of the class, we`ll be able to field 20 - 25 cars regularily which is a good grid in itself, and that will happen.
Glenn Allingham and I had some great real close racing on the second weekend of the festival in our Camaros, and we had little cars all over us in the corners, but those particular guys - apart from one???? - gave us room to manoeuvre, which was great.
The U3L is quite a mixed bag, with a lot of the cars in that group being able to run in many different catergories, whereas with HMC we`re trying to showcase a period correct big banger class, that if the response from the public at the two weekends of the festival is any indication, is what they want to see.

[AMCO72]

I think Alan Boyle would up to having a go behind the wheel of the Viva. He seems a sprightly sort of Gent. Had a long chat with him at the second weekend. We were sitting in the Mini and he said that the front passenger seat looked familiar. He had actually made a mould in the late 60's, and Rod was one of the racers who bought a pair for the Amco mini. We have the drivers seat as well but arent allowed to use it!!!!!!! Rules dont you know.

Isnt it amazing who you meet up with at these gatherings......far better than the driving.



fullnoise, a question.........who is ???????????

[kiwi285]

Don't forget the Fahey Cologne Capri hopefully finished this year.
The PDL Mustangs
The Boyle Viva
The racing 3.8 Jaguars
The Moffat Capri
The Harrington and Halliday Escorts

[fullnoise68]

He`s the centre spread in a current magazine.

[John McKechnie]

I think Alan Boyle would up to having a go behind the wheel of the Viva. He seems a sprightly sort of Gent. Had a long chat with him at the second weekend. We were sitting in the Mini and he said that the front passenger seat looked familiar. He had actually made a mould in the late 60's, and Rod was one of the racers who bought a pair for the Amco mini. We have the drivers seat as well but arent allowed to use it!!!!!!! Rules dont you know.

Isnt it amazing who you meet up with at these gatherings......far better than the driving.



fullnoise, a question.........who is ???????????

Gerald- Do you have to run the original mini front seat for schedule K or the racing seat used for the year you specified.
Also do you have to have one seat or all seats for this schedule K

[ERC]

Totally agree that there needs to be a class for race saloons as opposed to roadgoing (which we are at the moment).

However, before anyone gets too carried away, I respectfully suggest that to go through all the hoops to get an old car back on the track to race just once a year, is hardly worthwhile - unless the Classic/Historic fraternity can resolve the current issues with MSNZ re cages etc.

We already have several saloons in the ERC grids that are thinly disguised racers and would be better off racing with similar cars, but we allow them in simply because they have nowhere else to race.

Arthur's U3L group hasn't brought out more than a couple of cars that are not already racing in other groups, so maybe we need to get our heads together to decide just how many viable grids there are - and I think that we also need to look at North and South Islands when listing present or past cars.

North Island Classics (Saloons/Sports/GTs) only

HMC is well on the way to being viable but I think it is going to take another year or two to fully mature.
BMW can field at least two or three viable grids.
Alfa and MG grids and classic Japanese could all really do with a grid boost.
Central Muscle cars are viable.
Our ERC (AES & Arrows) grids seem to mop up the others (including sports and GTs) and generally have viable grids, though there is a lot of overlap with Alfa, MG & BMW.

The U3L grid is only stand alone viable when the other grids are not running.

It seems to me that the only grid not represented is indeed classic race saloons.

[John McKechnie]

Its just a thought really Gerald, I'd personally love to see a field of old original cars all running together, even though they may not have all raced together in period. My reasoning for the non-slick thing would be that slicks were only just being introduced around the time of the cut-off period I gave, the vast majority of the cars on the list above would never have raced on slicks in period.

The performances of the cars listed above wouldn't be that vast, even the V8s would not be fast cars. Consider where the Segedin Mustang was when the Rat was driving it last year, or where the Dawson Mustang was at this years event in relation to your car. I'd hazard a guess your Mini would be one of the fastest cars in the field, with you at the wheel (assuming you haven't sold it?).

As for rollcages, well thats something quite outside the powers of anyone who creates a historic racing class. Anything to do with safety is governing body territory.

Steve-I have started the ball rolling on this.I have been told to get pics of the car showing cage, results of the races, pref a log book.The cage on my can be done as original using modern material. Recommended to take to a specialist.They are not keen on bolt in cages.

[crunch]

[QUOTE=AMCO72;25073]Also, are old style roll cages allowed or do they all have to be up to present specs......I think Rod Grimwood has this problem.

QUOTE]

If the car is the genuine article and is spec'd in period, then it would get a Schedule K COD. As long as proof can be shown that the cage is period then it fits under Sch AA and could run without modification. Not as hard as many people make out...

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks crunch, thats a really great post, and a really good point.

In fact, one of the reasons I listed the cars in my opening post was because the majority are already competing in historic events somewhere in NZ, or are being restored for historic racing, so hopefully rollcage issues shouldn't be of any concern.

Remember, this thread was really only created to stimulate conversation on this subject, and to get people thinking about the idea. The idea is not that it be a series, a championship, or anything like that. Its really just about bringing together a field of old racing saloons that all have a competition history, just for the sake of history. It shouldn't have any affect on existing historic saloon groups, as it'd only be a one-off.

When you see a field of F5000s, a field of Formula Juniors, Historic Formula Fords, etc, all the cars on the grid have some sort of period history. But this isn't the case with racing saloon cars. Most are new builds, created for historic racing. The reasoning for this is usually because there aren't enough original cars for every person wanting to go historic racing. So the question is, are there enough cars currently in NZ whereby if someone was motivated enough, they could pull them all together for a single event to have a race?

[Steve Holmes]

Don't forget the Fahey Cologne Capri hopefully finished this year.
The PDL Mustangs
The Boyle Viva
The racing 3.8 Jaguars
The Moffat Capri
The Harrington and Halliday Escorts

Hi Mike, thanks. The PDL Mustangs and Moffat Capri would be too modern. The cut-off would be the end of 1973. PDL I originally began racing in 1970, but raced right through to the early 1980s, and has since been restored to its 1975/76 period.

[Steve Holmes]

The Rodger Anderson Cambridge BMW 2002 would be another one that would fit.

[Steve Holmes]

I have a sneaky suspision that the HMC boys dont really want us, the U3L, with them, and I fully agree. Although it was a stirring sight at the festival with all these cars mixed up, the fact of the matter is that it was a 'convenience' thing. I have no doubt in my mind that Dale and his boys will be able to field a full grid of proper Muscle cars next festival, or before.


Actually Gerald, HMC and U3 are a fantastic match for each other. The combination of the two groups is just that, bringing together two groups that compliment each other. All the cars are period correct, and they look amazing out on the track together. Perhaps eventually each will grow in car numbers to the point its not possible to race together at the high profile events, because there are simply too many cars. I reckon if you spoke to the HMC guys at the Denny Hulme event, almost all would be full of praise for the way the small car guys drove. And I think the same would be true of the small car guys. Remember, 40 years ago big cars and small cars all raced together. Nothing has changed, there is no reason why it can't still be the case.

I've been trying to get Arthur on this website to create a thread specific to the U3 group. More exposure is what is needed to help create enthusiasm and boost grids. The HMC thread has now had nearly 60,000 page views, and has been really helpful in building the profile of HMC, and it amazes me that other historic racing groups aren't doing likewise. It bonds competitors and educates people. Trouble is, by his own admission, Arthur is fairly technologically challenged, so this may take a while to achieve. But I'm happy to help him through it if it means helping the U3 group.

[Spgeti]

It is a good idea Steve. I am staggered by reading the old programes on SFOS 2013. Where are all the Mini Cooper "S"s, the Lotus Cortinas etc. Have they all disappeared to the confines of garages never to be seen again or are they just to precious to bring out ?

[Steve Holmes]

I was wondering the same thing Bruce. I know many of the old Mini's were probably absorbed into Mini 7 racing when that eventually began, and there was plenty of carnage in there, but surely there must be a lot that have survived?

[John McKechnie]

Steve H-Too precious to bring out is a very strong and logical reason . Thats one reason why people build replicas.
Its a big hurdle getting those who own these cars to actually take them out and give them a good dealing to on the track.......with others very close.
Talking honestly and privately to these owners would be more fruitful than throwing this open here, after all they are their babies.
Maybe Bob Homewood give some imput here please.

[Steve Holmes]

But John, the list I posted at the opening of this thread is of cars that are already racing, thats why I posted them. So no question of them being too precious.

[John McKechnie]

Ok, new tack- what is the percentage of those living in NI and those in SI ?
Also the chances of everybody meeting at certain tracks and how many times a year.
Logistically it would be huge. The prestige of a promoter hosting this would be right up there.
In that case replace precious with deep pockets to one meeting NI and one SI to make sure everyone is committed.
Hey Steve, I thought you said you were flat out with work , and here you are suggesting the absolute biggest Historic Racing Saloon car series.
Great scheme.
I know the Monaro would like to revisit the tracks it did the Mercury Series in.

[Spgeti]

John I can appreciate that these cars are their babies and the last thing we wish to see is an historic car damaged or lost in the heat of competion. My question was where are they all. When I was a young fella in Whangarei the Cooper Ss around were Mary Carneys, Tim Slako, Neil Johns, John Weston, Peggy Fogden just to name a few. All these Ss raced during that time. There were also a huge amount of Anglias out there as well apart from the well known cars around today.
We see a fantastic group of single seaters and sports cars, all historic and to form a group of historic saloon would be great to see.

[John McKechnie]

My Mini Cooper S I raced in the early 70s could be out there-DG 2655.
BRG with white roof, sold with racing wheels and tyres.
Answers to the name Brutus.
Any one seen it?
If we adopt the American attitude toward Historic Racing -strong penalties and exclusion for contact-chances of loss would be hugely reduced.

[AMCO72]

John, seeing as you asked the question on this thread, I will reply on this thread.......thread pirates please note.

You ask whether we can run the original drivers seat, which matches the passenger seat in the Mini. Angus elected to put a 'proper' modern race seat in because it offers so much more protection in the event of an accident......high back etc. Also applies to the seat belts which really couldnt be used with the old seat as there were no slots for the belts to go through. Having said that ,the old seat was quite comfy....for me, and in the 80's when I first raced the car it was quite satisfactory.
And yes, all the seating should be in place, as it was.

The original roll frame was a very simple affair. Just a loop with a couple of braces back to the rear wheel arches. Dont know what it was made of but I suspect steam tube. Anyway it did the job. When the car was inverted at the Hamilton Classic in 1993, if you look at the photos of the car afterwards, the hoop stopped the roof from compressing the driver, which is all it is supposed to do.
The car now has a very comprehensive roll FRAME, but I'm not sure whether that was a requirement from MSNZ or just Angus being safe. So the whole bodywork is ever so much stiffer and heavier than it was, but not sure whether that makes it any safer for the driver.

As to the question of where have all the Minis and Anglias gone, well a lot of Anglias were just parked, and robbed, then went to pre 65 when that started up.
We did try and trace some of the better known Minis but was just about impossible. We actually found it easier to trace BACK from being a Mini 7, where a lot of them went, rather than start from a Cooper S or whatever, and go forward, but it was just a nightmare. Make no mistake they are probably out there, shoved in some barn or other. What we need is for the current owners to get onto the roaring season and tell us about them. But like a lot of 'old car' owners they get a bit 'funny' in their old age, and start to get all secretive, thinking someone is going to rip them off.......and anyway the family is going to 'restore' the car one day in memory of dear ol Dad......yeh right!!!!!

[ERC]

I've been trying to get Arthur on this website to create a thread specific to the U3 group. More exposure is what is needed to help create enthusiasm and boost grids. The HMC thread has now had nearly 60,000 page views, and has been really helpful in building the profile of HMC, and it amazes me that other historic racing groups aren't doing likewise. It bonds competitors and educates people. Trouble is, by his own admission, Arthur is fairly technologically challenged, so this may take a while to achieve. But I'm happy to help him through it if it means helping the U3 group.

As 95% of Athur's group are already running in the two ERC grids, (AES & Arrows) I am not sure what difference it would make. I started a thread for our group and publicised it on here, but even with 115 or so driver's registered, there is minimal response on here as presumably they are happy enough where they are and don't really have too much to say?

Steve, you do a great job of publicising HRC and between yourself and Dale, put out a lot of words each month, but is the intention to take drivers and cars out of the ERC group because our rules are a little more pragmatic than adhering to 100% period or T & C to get them into U3L?

I think not, as you don't seem to strike me as someone who would try to derail a proven series. For the U3L to create its own stand alone niche, it has to bring cars to the track that are not already racing. So far I can't think of a single U3L car that doesn't already have a regular place to run.

Over the years I have copped a lot of flack from relatively few people regarding our eligibility rules and can justify our/my stance on several grounds. The fact that we are close to T & C but not 100% is unfortunate but also totally justifiable.

I ask again. Can any meeting promoter afford to put on six grids of a few cars each and pay out $12,000 to run a 1 day meeting at HD? The answer is obvious but a few people are so totally wrapped up in the purity aspect that they ignore the realities.

Creating the U3L class to run at HRC meetings might well give a fair few drivers an additional 3 races, which they are doing, but if they had to pay full price for their grid space, I am pretty sure they'd opt for a series of meetings that are still chocolate fish based rather than running just two or three events a year. Or am I reading this all wrong?

Crunch is well aware of where T & C doesn't work for us and other like series, but creating an extra class just to appease those who believe that T & C in its present form and CoDs are the way forward is not going to bring cars out of the garages. It didn't in the previous Arrows Series (CoD essential) and it isn't happening now, even though publicity at the time was coming from MSNZ that this was the way forward.

Arthur himself has made the suggestion that we do not need the current cumbersome CoD 15 page system that tends to put people off, especially newcomers. Far better to have a simple declaration where anything non-standard is declared and can be easily audited.

You can go out today and pick up a roadworthy MGB GT for a song, but why the heck do you need to state the size of the clutch plate to get a CoD???? And who is ever going to check whether it has an 1800cc or a 1950cc engine? Does it matter, given that there is no level playing field?

The CoD system was intended to document and provide a provenance for an historic race car where that history and originality was deemed to be important.

Bringing out an historic race saloon or replica or even a saloon built out of period parts is all OK by me as currently they need a platform but you can't come out with six cars. Far better to have classes covering different levels, periods, capacities. They could just as easily pad out the HMC grid now, as a short term measure.

Without better paying grids then entry fees will rise. A 15 car grid covers the basic costs and puts something into the promoter's pocket as long as all drivers are paying a fair contribution and not doing double duty on one race fee. Where only one or two drivers are paying, it is a different story. Their grid is being subsidised by the other drivers.

The MGCC series is still in its infancy, but I can't guarantee a space on our programme after this year. Their club committee has elected to not join up with another marque club, so do we disband the ERC series so that the U3L series, the Alfas, MGs and the open BMW series have more members, thus leaving a fair few cars totally out in the cold, particulary Jaguars and the like and over 3 litre Porsches? After a total of 27 years, have we done our dash, or do we carry on with a class that is popular and successful as it is, with zero support from MSNZ, and minimal support from one or two other key areas?

I think the answer is pretty obvious but any proposed additional classes have to be justified and an open (Classic) race saloon class is.

[crunch]

, or do we carry on with a class that is popular and successful as it is, with zero support from MSNZ, and minimal support from one or two other key areas?

.

Hi Ray

Can I ask what you mean by zero support from MSNZ?

[ERC]

Can I ask what you mean by zero support from MSNZ?
Not once in all the newsletters, either in print or electronically, has the Series ever really been recognised, encouraged, promoted or acknowledged, despite the massive levies paid over the years. If I have overlooked something, I am happy to be proved wrong.

Never an offer to partially pay for our TV coverage of a few seasons back, so we had to fund it all ourselves, not even $1,000. Yet because we can get decent numbers to our own meeting, we paid MSNZ $2,300 for just one meeting last year. If I totted up the total we have paid MSNZ over the years, just on race levies alone, I am sure it would be substantial.

Only you Crunch, representing MSNZ, but in more in a personal capacity, has ever accepted that not only one grid, but two grids, have been viable and contributed to Classic grids over the last few years in the north island.

At several meetings and particularly, prior to the emergence of the BMW series', we have often provided at least 40% of the levies at those one day meetings, but have we ever been thanked for our considerable contribution to the MSNZ coffers? No, but we do see a lot of push for anyone toeing the T & C and CoD line and vast sums promoting 9 car grids!

Or let me turn it around, what has MSNZ done specifically for the series over the last 17 years? (Or 27 if you include the 10 years under Donn White?)

Maybe this should now move to the ERC thread?

[Steve Holmes]

This thread was created to form a list of racing saloon cars that have period race history, that are either currently competing somewhere around NZ in historic events, or are being restored with the intention of competing in historic events. Somehow its got onto the subject of the ERC series, politics, and MSNZ. It would appear I'm even being accused of trying to poach cars from ERC for HMC (by the way, I'm not, and never would).

From here on, this thread returns to the subject matter it was create for. Creating a list of existing saloon cars with period race history that are currently competing in historic racing, or being restored in order to compete in historic racing.

Crunch, I moved your last post over to the ERC thread.

[Spgeti]

Ian Munts Capri,
Sprauge Mk 111 Zephyr Replica

[Bruce302]

Great discussion Steve. I had been mulling over some very similar thoughts. As the owner of one of the cars mentioned (the Coppins Firebird) I seem to have vested interest.

I am fully in favour of a class or group that covers the cars mentioned, and there are more I would add. For example the PDL Mustangs, The Sidchrome Mustang, Coppins Camaro, (now with Tony Boyden) the Cossack Victor etc.

These are cars that need a place to be shown and exercised together Granted some, are entered and raced in various classes, and in doing so the real survivors are fragmented. I would like to see them all in one area, and run together on the track, in a manner like the HMC, but bearing in mind the wide spread of horsepower and handling ability. In speaking to other owners of the original cars there is some reservation about actually racing them, and a preference of maintaining the car, or preserving it as they were.

The fact that many are, or will be, presented in period correct manner means that engine sizes are not pushed to the limit, transmissions are old school, and as such wouldn't stand a chance if raced competitively. Especially in mixed grids.
I get my kicks from preserving the history as much, and as accurately, as possible.

I don't see it as starting new race group, but giving the old, preserved cars an arena in which to congregate and be appreciated.

Bruce.

[John McKechnie]

Bruce-I would agree 100% with what you say, especially about the orig equipment not up to the pace of competitive racing.
Also , absolutely this is not a new racing class but an arena to congregate and be appreciated.
You are certainly in a position to say what is suitable and appropriate.
Any car can be raced, but these HRS are deservedly preserved for their history
On my HK Monaro -12 bolt diff now permanent resident in car
Recent sanding the car found a decent area of Grady Thomson Bronze.
Still no Spears Yellow.

[Carlo]

Bruce-I would agree 100% with what you say, especially about the orig equipment not up to the pace of competitive racing.
Also ,not a new class but an arena.

+1

[Steve Holmes]

Great discussion Steve. I had been mulling over some very similar thoughts. As the owner of one of the cars mentioned (the Coppins Firebird) I seem to have vested interest.

I am fully in favour of a class or group that covers the cars mentioned, and there are more I would add. For example the PDL Mustangs, The Sidchrome Mustang, Coppins Camaro, (now with Tony Boyden) the Cossack Victor etc.

These are cars that need a place to be shown and exercised together Granted some, are entered and raced in various classes, and in doing so the real survivors are fragmented. I would like to see them all in one area, and run together on the track, in a manner like the HMC, but bearing in mind the wide spread of horsepower and handling ability. In speaking to other owners of the original cars there is some reservation about actually racing them, and a preference of maintaining the car, or preserving it as they were.

The fact that many are, or will be, presented in period correct manner means that engine sizes are not pushed to the limit, transmissions are old school, and as such wouldn't stand a chance if raced competitively. Especially in mixed grids.
I get my kicks from preserving the history as much, and as accurately, as possible.

I don't see it as starting new race group, but giving the old, preserved cars an arena in which to congregate and be appreciated.

Bruce.

Thanks Bruce, yes that last sentence is exactly what I was trying to suggest, but you worded it much better than me: "I don't see it as starting new race group, but giving the old, preserved cars an arena in which to congregate and be appreciated".

The only reason I suggested the cut-off date of the end of 1973 was because many of the cars built post-1973 were built to some different regulations, were more 'Sports Sedan' like, ie, any motor could be fitted to any bodyshell, and the the speed differences between some of these cars and some of the earlier cars could start getting a little dangerous.

John Dennehy owns the old Don Halliday Escort. John is a very experienced driver with many years of racing behind him. He owns a well developed car in the old Halliday Escort, which is fitted with a BDG motor. John was lapping around the 1:18 lap time at Hampton Downs at the Denny Hulme event. I'd think John would be one of the fastest of the group of cars I'd listed at the start of this thread.

Tony Boyden owns the old Rod Coppins Camaro which was continuously developed throughout the 1970s for OSCA racing, and is now presented much as John Osborne had it in the early 1980s. Tony is almost as quick as the fastest Central Muscle Cars in the Camaro, and the fastest CMC cars are now lapping in the 1:08 bracket at Hampton Downs. So a big variance between him and John.

So that was the only reason I chose that cut-off, I think eventually a grid of post-1973 cars with racing history could also be formed, including Sports Sedans etc from the 1980s.

[Bruce302]

Steve, The reason I would like to see the slightly later Tin Top cars included is that they are as much appreciated, and in some cases more, than the earlier cars, depending on the spectators age. For me the 60's and 70's together was one place in time.

To have a wider time coverage we get more cars and hence a bigger potential audience. If the later 'tin tops' are outside the cut-off date, they would need a separate group, or arena of their own, again fragmenting them. We don't really have to numbers to break it down too much. I want to see those PDL Mustangs, Sidchrome Mustang, Nazer Victor etc, as much as the next guy.

I see it as a kind of mobile, rolling museum display. Any track time would be very informal, and there should be plenty of space around the cars.

Bruce.

[John McKechnie]

Spectators would be more interesting to watch them informalizing around the track in the spaces between races than drifting utes or go karts.

[Bruce302]

I agree John, It fills me with dread to think restored drifting cars will perhaps command premium prices in 30 years as desirable collectables.

Bruce.


Spectators would be more interesting to watch them informalizing around the track in the spaces between races than drifting utes or go karts.

[John McKechnie]

You know, Bruce, I had never thought of that. Then again I never filled my garage with 120Y Coupes.Then again , its not worth the emotion thinking this for the next 30 years-you will have all that time with the Firebird- and Mustang -to fill you with exquisite feelings

[Shano]

I agree John, It fills me with dread to think restored drifting cars will perhaps command premium prices in 30 years as desirable collectables.

Bruce.

Better get used to the idea Bruce - my son, who is 25 has what he calls a classic car - it's a mid-80s Mazda 323 turbo. He loves coming out to the classic car and motorbike meetings with me but he drools over Japanese cars. He was fizzing about the TKR Primera at the recent Hulme Festival.

What is nostalgia - surely the love of cars (and other things) that you lusted after back in the day. (Usually before you could afford them!).

[hilstwist]

The BOAC Fahey Mustang?

[Jac Mac]

The BOAC Fahey Mustang?

That is an awkward one as the car still exists in PDL electric blue form, which makes a case for dead nuts replicas of early forms of several cars that evolved or changed class over the years, there seems to be a number of knockers in & around motorsport classic circles that dont want this sort of thing to happen, but are quite happy to have the originals parade around in funeral procession style, but actually race or inadvertently bump into one another, heaven forbid [ or should it be welcome in!]

[fullnoise68]

That is an awkward one as the car still exists in PDL electric blue form, which makes a case for dead nuts replicas of early forms of several cars that evolved or changed class over the years, there seems to be a number of knockers in & around motorsport classic circles that dont want this sort of thing to happen, but are quite happy to have the originals parade around in funeral procession style, but actually race or inadvertently bump into one another, heaven forbid [ or should it be welcome in!]

That`s right Jac Mac, my ex USA 68 Camaro A Sedan which I imported to run in HMC was originally built as a race car in 1975 as per its original SCCA log book, and whilst it wasn`t a `name' driver car, it still has racing history throughtout the US, and is only 5 - 6 years newer than some of the period cars here in NZ that other owners would rather just parade around in. Same can be said for Nigel MacDonald who bought the ex Red Dawson Shelby back from the Bowdens to run in HMC, which he did with us at the Denny Hulme Festival. These cars were built to race, so get them out and do some skids. Yes it`s important to preserve historic things, but really we are only caretakers for the next bugger to own it, and life isn`t a rehearsal, so get them out for yourselves and everyone else to enjoy!

[AMCO72]

These two guys have hit the nail on the head. As 'custodian' of one of these 'super valuable' historic racing saloons, I cant see any point in going out, between races, and 'demonstrating' our cars to a public audience who frankly want to see, and hear them how they used to be. Trundling along at 100 k's I'm afraid is just not going to do the business.

We may, as Jacmac says, inadvertently 'bump' into one another, but we would try VERY hard not to........ YES....... To say that most of these cars are original is being a little economical with the truth. The Amco Mini has been rolled, boled and arsholed during its racing life, and it shows. Just look at the crinkly old floor and battered engine bay. Some of these machines have had complete body replacements, as in the old days it was easier to find a replacement body and fit parts to it, rather than repair what is damaged. After the contact with the concrete wall at the festival, the Mini has gone to a panel beater who actually knows how to panel beat, rather than just replace panels. Might not look as pristine as a new panel but much more satisfying.

Most of these old stagers were as rough as guts when they were built, quite unlike the concours examples we are seeing appear now,
and after spending zillions of dollars getting them up and running again, owners are of course reluctant to get them 'scratched'. But here you are loosing site of what they are, and why they were constructed in the first place. To actually get them out on the track and give them a bloody good workout is very satisfying, knowing you are sitting in the cabin, looking out the windscreen that its original owner did.

Some folk say they are too valuable to race. Why..........they might look smart sitting quietly in a display area or, heaven forbid, in a museum, but that, I think is a sad end to a creation that gave pleasure to people all those years ago, and is what those same people want to see again.

And the valuation thing. How do you put a value on an old race car. Is it worth what someone paid to have it restored, plus a premium, or is it worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.......willing seller, willing buyer. We have all heard stories about wealthy business men, who flick out their check-books and invite you to fill in the blanks......yeh right.

To get a large group of these machines together one day would be fantastic. We do have a 'problem' in NZ in that we are two islands divide by a stretch of water, and these two islands seem to have gone their own separate ways when it comes to motorsport. But hey, us owners of these super valuable cars have tons of money, travel the length and breadth of NZ will be no problem. Will it?????

[ERC]

You have raised an issue that appeared in March 2012 Octane magazine, "To conserve or to restore?".

Part of the article quotes Doug Nye (precis) "Cars are an assemblage of consumables, from brake pads to cranks, spark plugs to in some cases, bodywork and crankcase" etc. He also postulates that unlike the owner of a painting, by enjoying the use of your car, you are effectively consuming your possession.

Your choice to lock it away, display it, cruise around in convoy at 100kph or race it. I for one am happy enough to see (and hear) the cars in action. I am happy to make parade time available at any race meeting I run for any group who wants to cruise around the track at lunchtime behind a safety car, but going any quicker raises issues with the Steward and MSNZ's rules for issuing a permit, where even convoy runs have to be specified.

As an arena, you'd really only want a higher profile event where the owners of such cars can then mix and mingle throughout the meeting and show the public. Racing (even low key) would only come about if the numbers are there to justify grid time which has to be paid for; cars (and drivers) would be subjected to the normal criteria for any race meeting.

[markec]

What the well heeled in Europe are doing, is to have a replica built then race the replica, the Drummers Auto Union is said to be just that. The issues will surface later in time when two cars appear as being both the same car.Greed and quick profits will overcome common decency.

[crunch]

What the well heeled in Europe are doing, is to have a replica built then race the replica, the Drummers Auto Union is said to be just that. The issues will surface later in time when two cars appear as being both the same car.Greed and quick profits will overcome common decency.

Agree entirely with your last sentence.

[John McKechnie]

These two guys have hit the nail on the head. As 'custodian' of one of these 'super valuable' historic racing saloons, I cant see any point in going out, between races, and 'demonstrating' our cars to a public audience who frankly want to see, and hear them how they used to be. Trundling along at 100 k's I'm afraid is just not going to do the business.

We may, as Jacmac says, inadvertently 'bump' into one another, but we would try VERY hard not to........ YES....... To say that most of these cars are original is being a little economical with the truth. The Amco Mini has been rolled, boled and arsholed during its racing life, and it shows. Just look at the crinkly old floor and battered engine bay. Some of these machines have had complete body replacements, as in the old days it was easier to find a replacement body and fit parts to it, rather than repair what is damaged. After the contact with the concrete wall at the festival, the Mini has gone to a panel beater who actually knows how to panel beat, rather than just replace panels. Might not look as pristine as a new panel but much more satisfying.

Most of these old stagers were as rough as guts when they were built, quite unlike the concours examples we are seeing appear now,
and after spending zillions of dollars getting them up and running again, owners are of course reluctant to get them 'scratched'. But here you are loosing site of what they are, and why they were constructed in the first place. To actually get them out on the track and give them a bloody good workout is very satisfying, knowing you are sitting in the cabin, looking out the windscreen that its original owner did.

Some folk say they are too valuable to race. Why..........they might look smart sitting quietly in a display area or, heaven forbid, in a museum, but that, I think is a sad end to a creation that gave pleasure to people all those years ago, and is what those same people want to see again.

And the valuation thing. How do you put a value on an old race car. Is it worth what someone paid to have it restored, plus a premium, or is it worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.......willing seller, willing buyer. We have all heard stories about wealthy business men, who flick out their check-books and invite you to fill in the blanks......yeh right.

To get a large group of these machines together one day would be fantastic. We do have a 'problem' in NZ in that we are two islands divide by a stretch of water, and these two islands seem to have gone their own separate ways when it comes to motorsport. But hey, us owners of these super valuable cars have tons of money, travel the length and breadth of NZ will be no problem. Will it?????

Gerald- so will you in your not so pristine Mini, and me in my repainted Monaro be on the start line next January, and this time will you complete the first corner so we can have some of this fun you are alluding to ?

[AMCO72]

John, I have re-read my post above, and NOWHERE does it mention having fun!!!!!!!!!! Or indeed ALLUDING to having fun.
Sorry to be so pedantic, but I sure as hell wasnt having FUN when that bloody wall jumped out and devoured large chunks of my precious.....VALUABLE Historic Race car.

When the paramedics arrived to drag me from the smoking wreck, they thouight I was off my trolley, as I was raving on about the damage to the car. Clearly I had had a serious BUMP on the head rendering me temporarily insane. The very kind lady asked me how I was as she was concerned about my well-being. I said to her...'stuff MY well-being, look at the f###ing car'.

She managed to calm me down sufficiently to get me into the back seat of her vehicle, where I sat like a stunned mullet contemplating, not my navel, but my incompetance behind the wheel. How was I going to face my No1 driver and tell him the bad news. She assured me that cars can be fixed, but sometimes bodies are a bit more difficult. She was infuriatingly calm about the whole episode and I felt like wringing her neck!!!!!

No, she was very professional about it all. Aren't we lucky to have such a service at out tracks. Out on the main road I would probably have flung myself under a truck and ended it all.

But there we are. .......owning these 'valuable' cars what do you do. Stick em in a shed with a cover over them, or get them out and shoot the breeze, even if every now and then disaster takes over. If I was a car, I know which I would prefer. If I was a car I wouldn't be writing this......would I ??????????

[Jac Mac]

There is another issue beneath all this talk of ' demonstration/procession ' type event, the cross section of drivers and their respective skill levels becomes wider, you get those who wish to drive around with something like 75% effort and are just there to enjoy driving the car at higher, but not on the limit type speeds, and those who are there to race, one of the frequent comments you will hear from drivers of faster cars is that the slower [ cars & drivers ] tend to swap lines and wander around on the track rather than maintain their lines/position & often misjudge the closing rate of a faster car. I think you have to come to terms with either your there to race or not. Those that are actually racing at somewhere near the limit will usually find a defined racing line around the circuit, those driving at something like the 75% level will find they can wander all over the place and end up becoming mobile chicanes to the faster cars/drivers.

[Bruce302]

Wow, some seem to get the wrong end of the stick entirely. It seems to me that there will be the opportunity to see the cars on the track, making plenty of noise and doing some skids, but NOT banging into each other, or they won't be brought to the track at all because there is no invitation or place to be. (arena)
Why 100 K ? I was told I couldn't go in the noon parade as it was a "high speed" display, yet the cars in the later afternoon "demos' were well going over 200 kph.

Last time I looked I couldn't find any acid dipped '69 Firebird Trans Am body panels on Trademe . And damn straight I don't want it banged up.
Gerald, you banged the Mini, and packed it all in. Steve, I recall how upset you were that your Camaro was damaged, and rightly so. But there were grids of 40+ privateer Camaros in many T/A races. Hundreds were raced if not thousands. 6 factory backed 69 Firebirds raced.

Who is going to pay for new alloy fenders flares on the PDL Mustangs, or the Sidchrome, How about the Nazer Victor ? None of those on trademe either. I'm sure Tony Boyden won't be happy if his beautiful Camaro gets wrinkled.

It's all easy when it someone else's car, and you want to see them out there getting wild. You want me to race the Coppins car, I'll build one of those 600 hp race engines like the Aussies run. (history be damned) Might as well run a replica, but I'm not well healed, and not in Europe.
I'm looking at getting the cars out there. Isn't that what we want ?

McKechnievich, how much is a new rear quarter for a 68 Monaro ? and where do you get them ?

[John McKechnie]

John, I have re-read my post above, and NOWHERE does it mention having fun!!!!!!!!!! Or indeed ALLUDING to having fun.
Sorry to be so pedantic, but I sure as hell wasnt having FUN when that bloody wall jumped out and devoured large chunks of my precious.....VALUABLE Historic Race car.

When the paramedics arrived to drag me from the smoking wreck, they thouight I was off my trolley, as I was raving on about the damage to the car. Clearly I had had a serious BUMP on the head rendering me temporarily insane. The very kind lady asked me how I was as she was concerned about my well-being. I said to her...'stuff MY well-being, look at the f###ing car'.

She managed to calm me down sufficiently to get me into the back seat of her vehicle, where I sat like a stunned mullet contemplating, not my navel, but my incompetance behind the wheel. How was I going to face my No1 driver and tell him the bad news. She assured me that cars can be fixed, but sometimes bodies are a bit more difficult. She was infuriatingly calm about the whole episode and I felt like wringing her neck!!!!!

No, she was very professional about it all. Aren't we lucky to have such a service at out tracks. Out on the main road I would probably have flung myself under a truck and ended it all.

But there we are. .......owning these 'valuable' cars what do you do. Stick em in a shed with a cover over them, or get them out and shoot the breeze, even if every now and then disaster takes over. If I was a car, I know which I would prefer. If I was a car I wouldn't be writing this......would I ??????????

Gerald- a very touching piece,especially as I saw that wall jump out in front of you, happened right in front of me, think I even saw your glasses fly off- no double tie downs there. We must do this for fun, as we dont get money for it., However you have not answered my question.

[GPBK]

I've read this thread with interest. It is a subject I can relate to.

I decided to sit on my hands and bite my tongue but Bruce302, as he does often, has eloquently stated more or less exactly what I was thinking. Owners of historic cars or any car for that matter are exactly that, owners. That gives them the right to do exactly what they want with that car. Park it under a tree, park it in a barn, restore and park it in a museum, restore and race it or even park it in a concrete barrier. Bottom line nobody has the right to 'guilt' anyone into doing anything other than what they want or can afford to with a car they own.

Should the day come I own a restored piece of racing history will I put it on the track and race it. No. If I could afford to go racing I'd build a racing car and would have done it 30 years ago. Fact is I could only afford to do it once, bend it and it stays bent. The point is not everyone can afford to do it all. Good on you if you can but shame on you for criticising those who can't.

[AMCO72]

Bruce 302, clearly if I had read your post more carefully I would not have got the wrong end of the stick. Any 'demonstration' laps that I have seen have been behind the pace car at a very limited speed. You are obviously thinking along the lines of the Can Am cars at the Festival, where they had 'claytons' race........racing but not racing, and well spread out so there was no chance of contact.

But things can also happen where there is no contact between cars and things just go wrong for whatever reason. In my case it was probably old age, but when you are driving at 200kph, a slight error, a slight malfunction and things happen very quickly, and walls are very unforgiving.

And frankly whats the difference in repairing the replica as to repairing the real thing, which MAY not have its original panels anyway. You still have to find replacement panels or repair the damaged ones.

Most race cars carry scares from battles fought. It is part of their history, that is why we are beating out the Mini rather than replacing, which with a Mini is dead easy as I'm sure you can appreciate.

[Rod Grimwood]

That is an awkward one as the car still exists in PDL electric blue form, which makes a case for dead nuts replicas of early forms of several cars that evolved or changed class over the years, there seems to be a number of knockers in & around motorsport classic circles that dont want this sort of thing to happen, but are quite happy to have the originals parade around in funeral procession style, but actually race or inadvertently bump into one another, heaven forbid [ or should it be welcome in!]


This one Jac Mac, she had a few different colour schemes.

[fullnoise68]

I suppose the main thing here is each owners enterpretation of what they want with their car. Value? well how much is a F5000 to buy these days, let alone run one. Enjoyment? it`s all right mate all the others will be back soon. History? yeah the longer you keep it the more historic it becomes.Satisfaction? yours or other like minded people. Bruce, I asked Craig Stacey at the Festival if he would consider selling me the Nazer Victor so I could get it going again for such events as we`re talking about here. He declined as he wants to do just that himself. When I leave this world, I don`t want to have a dribble stained bib around my neck wondering why my Triumph Stag wheels didn`t fit my Triumph Herald, or why didn`t I get my cheesecutter hat drycleaned more often. Hell no, I want to go out knowing that I`ve enjoyed myself, have helped others along the way, and can chuckle to myself `man, what a ride...........

[Rod Grimwood]

couple more colours (got a photo of her in pink/purple somewhere)

[Rod Grimwood]

Just see you Steve, with your Magenta walker all crossed up scarpering out of the kitchen.

Actually put a couple more bits together on old girl, time and money and not actually in that order, but it will happen.

[John McKechnie]

Rod- what track and when is the Fahey 104 Mustang? That looks like my Mini Cooper S number 51 (my Number) in the background

[Rod Grimwood]

Aussie trip John.

[John McKechnie]

Odds are that with all the two tone Minis, there had to be more than one with 51 on the side.

[AMCO72]

John, to reply to your question. I am a danger to shipping out there, and while I got away without hitting anyone this time, who knows, next time might be different, and bruce302's worst nightmare might come true!!

SO........plain 1, purl 1..............bedsox anyone?

[John McKechnie]

John, to reply to your question. I am a danger to shipping out there, and while I got away without hitting anyone this time, who knows, next time might be different, and bruce302's worst nightmare might come true!!

SO........plain 1, purl 1..............bedsox anyone?

Ah well, one door closes, another door opens..
Is the purl double declutching as the needles change direction at speed?
Also is your zimmer frame going to be matching colour to the Mini?

[John McKechnie]

Wow, some seem to get the wrong end of the stick entirely. It seems to me that there will be the opportunity to see the cars on the track, making plenty of noise and doing some skids, but NOT banging into each other, or they won't be brought to the track at all because there is no invitation or place to be. (arena)
Why 100 K ? I was told I couldn't go in the noon parade as it was a "high speed" display, yet the cars in the later afternoon "demos' were well going over 200 kph.

Last time I looked I couldn't find any acid dipped '69 Firebird Trans Am body panels on Trademe . And damn straight I don't want it banged up.
Gerald, you banged the Mini, and packed it all in. Steve, I recall how upset you were that your Camaro was damaged, and rightly so. But there were grids of 40+ privateer Camaros in many T/A races. Hundreds were raced if not thousands. 6 factory backed 69 Firebirds raced.

Who is going to pay for new alloy fenders flares on the PDL Mustangs, or the Sidchrome, How about the Nazer Victor ? None of those on trademe either. I'm sure Tony Boyden won't be happy if his beautiful Camaro gets wrinkled.

It's all easy when it someone else's car, and you want to see them out there getting wild. You want me to race the Coppins car, I'll build one of those 600 hp race engines like the Aussies run. (history be damned) Might as well run a replica, but I'm not well healed, and not in Europe.
I'm looking at getting the cars out there. Isn't that what we want ?

McKechnievich, how much is a new rear quarter for a 68 Monaro ? and where do you get them ?

Bruceshvilli- have just got a slightly used, low rust right rear quarter. Price confidential as publication may affect the market value of them.If I bought it, it was affordable
I figure if you have one, then you wont need one.
I am grateful to Steve H for drawing a line in the sand and wanting to provide something different for you , me and the others, to let the public see the icons from the past still run and not museum pieces .
My Monaro when restored will not be a pristine over restored work of art.It is quite simply the car that I fell in love with in 1969 and I will never have to opportunity to own anything like this EVER again.. we wont even discuss that I have looked for this car to OWN for 43 years. Not an impulse buy just to be a big noter.
I am on the same side of the fence as Bruce in regards looking after my car and not wanting it banged.
I can always do skids in the Smurf Coupe.

[Jaydee]

Hi everyone. I'm the JD with the Halliday Escort and the race Aston Zagato (rebuild finished just last week, and will be at the Leadfoot).

Thanks to Steve for promoting this discussion here and happy to share my own thoughts. Firstly, I have to admit to being influenced by how the UK and Europe get their historic cars out on the tracks, competing in a wide variety of series. It's relatively easy for them of course, with literally hundreds (probably thousands) of historic saloons running on circuits from Mondello in Ireland, to Snetterton in the UK, and all points in between. I fully understand that the challenges here are quite different, but there are some interesting things that might be relevant.

1. How people run historics there is entirely up to the series organisers; they decide what cars will run. If the owners don't like the series, they go elsewhere. It's a common misconception that FiA/HtP predominates there. It doesn't, and the MSA does not dictate documentation or regulations for historic motorsport, other than the Historic Rally Championship (which is an FiA event anyway). Goodwood, U2C, Gentlemen Drivers, Heritage GT etc etc, all run their own series, and papers not required and non existent. There are races for historics with FiA papers only, but they are usually one of a number of races at a meeting (eg, I ran a Group C car in support races for FiA ETC and F3 championship races, but we had nothing to do with the FiA; very simply, the meeting organisers could pick and choose who came to support, and they chose us). The MSA provides governance and safety parameters for all motorsport. Quite why MNZ here wants to get involved in dictating (to my mind, completely misguided and ultimately pointless) T&C and CoD regimes, is beyond me. However, that's not for this forum (sorry Steve, will desist).

2. The emphasis is on getting cars that ran together in period together. That means Minis, Alfas and Escorts with Falcons, Camaros and Mustangs. The Anglo American series that ran there in the 80s and 90s was a huge success, and entirely self administered. I have to admit to being disappointed at the curious aversion that some people have here to seeing that sort of racing which is obviously entertaining and will bring crowds back. Rather than splitting the U3L grid off when there are enough cars, wouldn't it be better to just have two grids separated only on times? The best fun I ever had racing was being on track with Andy Rouse in his epically wild Camaro, surrounded by a gaggle of British saloons heading into the Old hairpin at Donington.If you can't learn to race with anything other than identical iron around you, you probably shouldn't be racing at all; ask Paul Radisich, Foggy or Andy Booth.

3. Everyone needs to get over the slicks thing. As I've tried on countless occasions to explain, there are no (and I mean a very big NO, so please don't point me in the direction of some tyre manufacturer or other, as I have spoken to very single one), 50+ profile DOT tyres that will fit on my period correct (bought at some expense) minilites. I run Kumhos, and they are fine, but they look daft on my rears as they are 45 profile (I've got 50s on the front, but they are a stretch as I can't get the correct width). I can get period correct slicks and groove them and the car will look as it should do. Someone please explain what the problem is, as I haven't heard a single rational explanation yet. It certainly isn't performance, as a six lap race at HD is hardly going to push the envelope on cold tyres. "Bonkers" was the word used by my man at Avon performace tyres in the UK.

4. I think some of the engineering of cars here is exceptional. Paul McCarthy's Escort is superb (and driven well). It's his choice as to how he builds it, and series organsiers will make their own decisions about whether they want his car and others like it to enter. Ironically, he'd be in big demand in the UK in series like the Heritage GTs. The same goes for the front running cars in Arrows, and without Ray Green, I have to wonder where many of the cars would go. The point I think I'm making is that there has been no compelling reason up to now for owners of period cars to engineer them 'backwards'. Why put on four pot girlings, small SUs, unreliable drivetrains and lever arm suspension and sit at the back of the grid, when you can buy off the shelf reliable performance parts? Of course it's a shame that so many of the period cars have disappeared or been compromised with non period mods, but that's the way it has been here, and it has resulted in some epically good cars.

Times are changing as historic motorsport is the fastest growing branch of our sport world wide. Part of it is driven by money of course and there's no doubt that genuine period race cars fetch serious money. Not only that, but any car rebuilt to period standards and specs (and that is where FiA/HtP papers have come into their own) will fetch equally eye watering amounts. Whether we like it or not, that's a fact, and maybe that alone will prompt rebuilt cars to head towards the period correct specs...maybe.

Hats off to all pushing the historic scene here; Steve, Chris and Tony at HD, Arthur Vowles and Dale Mathers and all the owners. We don't have to do it, but it's bloody good fun and racing here in NZ is certainly that.

[AMCO72]

JD......I'm glad someone else on this forum is as puzzled as we are about the use of slicks, as in paragraph 3 of your post. If you have read some of my other posts you will see that I am continually asking the question.....what is the problem with slicks. Your car and ours and several others ran with these things in their day. The suspensions were designed for them, the wheels made for them, and like you we cannot get ANY decent dot rated tyres to fit our 10 inch rims.

All tyres are expensive, so that cant be an objection, and as to a performance advantage, well you hit the nail on the head when you say the heat required for the slicks to operate at their optimum, is hardly an issue in a 6-8 lap race.

Thank you for a thoughtful and comprehensive piece of writing, and I'm glad someone is on the same page as us.

I will be interested in the replys we get.

[ERC]

I have the utmost respect for the above two gentleman as drivers, car owners and also being able to promote their ideals.

We bent over backwards to allow John's car into the ERC series, even though it is in most respects, rather more of a race car than a road car. The reason for allowing it to run is simply that there was then, logically, nowhere else for it to run!

Our series has always been promoted as a series for cars effectively to WoF standards, and that therefore includes DoT rated tyres. Some have pushed the envelope a bit too far, but until such times as grids are over subscribed, far better they have a sand pit to play in.

In my very humble opinion, the major difference between a road car and a race car is not stripping out the interior, installing a miniature of the Eiffel Tower and souping up the engine, but the tyres, as they are NOT able to be used on the road. Simple as that. Right from the day I drew up the original rules, I was also aware that there were many Targa cars that wanted some race action and made sure that we could cope. Gordon Burr's ex-Proctor Escort (Ford V8) is the perfect example. It was road registered. I am not sure that there is a compelling case to change our stance as I suspect ther would be a rush from those with deeper pockets to go out and buy another set of rims and tyres for some sort of temporary advantage, nullified immediately by a shift in the handicap.

We need entry level race groups. We have them.

JD also made the quote after the Auckland driver's meeting to thrash out T & C that is now my mantra, regarding repowers (with certain limitations). "If it looks like an Escort, it probably is an Escort."

What is under the skin is indeed up to series organisers and race promoters and has nothing whatever to do with MSNZ, and very little to do with the H & C commission either. If it isn't schedule K, it is not really your problem. (Crunch already knows that is my opinion!)

HMC has its rules. End of story. We have our rules. End of Story. Ditto BMW & Alfa. As John points out, if those series rules don't work, the series' fall over. Couldn't be simpler.

Allowing people to run slicks (without a very good reason, such as John's) changes the whole ethos of the series, which was always aimed at the drive to the meeting, empty the boot, stick on the numbers race brigade.

Over the years, most have elected to use trailers (myself included) as it is cheaper overall to tow the car than to pay all the various charges, including that high ACC content, an annual authority card, WoF, insurance etc for 200-300kms a year.

John's car is a classic case of when there is a more appropriate arena, he will probably move to it, though we'd never refuse his participation in the ERC group. One of the reasons for that is that we have never had a complaint from another driver - and I have a soft spot for Aston Martins...

[AMCO72]

So there we have it. If you cant get a WOF with the tyre for road use then we cant use them on the track. Well I can tell you that several [a lot/most of ] the U3L cars had tyres that although they were dot rated, they were NOT RECOMMENDED FOR ROAD USE.
Why, because as I have said before, they are thinly disguised slicks and cant manage anything more that a DAMP road. Not a big problem on the race track, but a major one out on the highway.

Ray you summed it up when you said that most [all ? ] of the competitors in the ERC series trailer their cars to the track for all the reasons you say, PLUS in the event of a major malfunction you can get them home again. Events like classic trials should be ok with WOF's and being driven to and from the track with their dot rated tyres, but all these other machine are to all intents and purposes RACE cars, and should be dealt with accordingly.




I have bought the matter of the Amco Mini up with you before, as we both know it is not, and never has been a road car. Your reply to me, and I have it front of me, is that it is entirely within the spirit of the meeting, and please hurry back.!!!!!! Now I couldnt have a more welcoming invitation than that, could I.

[fullnoise68]

John, who are you referring to when you say 'not an impulse buy just to be a big noter'?

[ERC]

Thanks Gerald. Yes, you and you know who, are always welcome. The U3L group run to their own rules regarding tyres but as I understand it, to T & C rules.

There are in fact quite a few ERC cars still driven to the event - and not just up the road either. I see quite a few heading north after the events. As an entry level series, drivers can graduate from Classic Trials, seamlessly, as budget and experience dictates.

Drivers with limited or no track experience who may want to shake down a muscle car prior to an HMC run, or any other sports, saloon, GT, can do so at their own pace and with no expectations of going too fast. (They have a speed bar anyway). An ideal stepping stone or transition to racing.

[John McKechnie]

John, who are you referring to when you say 'not an impulse buy just to be a big noter'?

There was no implied reference to anyone at all.

[Rod Grimwood]

I better get this thing in the garage together so John can come and run around with me. The more I read the more I wonder were I will run it. 1 roll cage ?. 2 slicks, never had anything else. 3 it has no inside except alloy panels. 4 only glass in windscreen, plastic elsewhere. 5 no muffler. 6 no radio. 7 no heater. 8 owner has no money but has a trailer.

[Steve Holmes]

I only suggested DOT or period correct cross-plies because I'd originally suggested a 1973 cut-off date, and most of the cars I'd listed would have been built and raced in period on treaded tyres. Then again, in period, what actually constituted a slick tyre? Was any racing-only tyre that was not for road use considered a slick? Or did it have to be completed free of any tread to be considered a slick?

Here is a photo of Allan Moffats Mustang at Pukekohe in 1972. Note the tyre next to the car. This is a Goodyear Bluestreak tyre, which is still being produced today for historic racing. This tyre has always labelled for competition use only, therefore, its not a DOT tyre. This was the ultimate in racing tyres at the time. Was this considered a slick tyre in 1972? This seems to be what most cars were fitted with at the time, hence my suggestion tyres by either period correct cross-plies such as this, or DOT tyres.

16495

Then again, if as Bruce suggested, you're opening the cut-off date right up to allow '70s and '80s Sports Sedans, OSCA, ShellSport etc which were all built for and raced on slicks, then obviously anyone who wants to fit slicks, could do.

[mrmeat]

John Weston in Tauranga a bit of a rascal

[AMCO72]

There has been a lot of talk on this thread about restored race cars, where, how, and even IF they should be 'raced'. Everyone has their opinion, and they have a right to that opinion, but fortunately there are still a lot of restorers out there who are happy, some very happy to give their precious machines a good workout on the track, in the company of others.

I think this is the time and place to quote Mr Justice Otton, the presiding judge in the 'Old Number One Bentley' court case...........

'Continuous history is the basis for evaluating a classic car; the car has a life of it's own that transcends the sum of it's parts, and this is surely how it should be.

A motor car is not a painting or a piece of antique furniture that you put in your house. It is a functional piece of machinery to be driven and enjoyed, and then repaired when it breaks, and driven again.

The motor car is a product of the machine age, not the craft age. The obsession in certain quarters with 'all matching numbers', is to loose the sense of what a motor car is, and risk consigning them to mothballs and museums. The thought upper most in your mind when out driving should NOT be that the car is loosing value if you break the engine'.

Amen to that.........

[fullnoise68]

Well put Gerald, my father in law is in the process of whittling down his quite large collection of assorted cars and motorbikes - 22 of his motorbikes are going through Webbs Auctions this Sunday - and many of his cars haven`t seen the light of day for 20 odd years. He has a few favourites that he gets about in, but as much as he has enjoyed `owning' them, the next owner is no doubt going to enjoy `driving them.' This scenario is relevant to the various views on this thread.

[ERC]

Well put Gerald, my father in law is in the process of whittling down his quite large collection of assorted cars and motorbikes - 22 of his motorbikes are going through Webbs Auctions this Sunday.
The Velo & Vincent on offer are almost enough to drag me back to 2 wheels...

[Jaydee]

Yes, Steve is right of course and I should have said that non DoT treaded tyres, are also avaiable that fit cars like mine, and I'd be happy to run those as well.

Also to say that I wasn't thinking of Ray and his Arrows/ERC series in the tyre debate, only of those events and series where true historics are sought for the grid (and then told they have run modern tyres that don't fit the car...).

[AMCO72]

I was looking at the Goodyear Bluestreak tyres fitted to the HMC cars at the festival. They have a VERY fine tread pattern, not chunky at all. And of course after a few skids there is 5/8th's of f-all tread left, which turns them nicely into a slick!!!!!!
They are good tyres though, and Dale tells me that he thinks they make them in a 10 inch size. Will have to check it out.

Bernie Hines did a lot of checking in |America before settling on the American Racers, so I'm puzzled as to why he didnt try the Goodyears. Maybe there was a big price difference, as the American racers are designed for dirt tracks, so their life on tarseal is very short. Their main problem is that they heat up too much, and then just fly to pieces. You can hear chunks of rubber hitting the inner guards.

[Parnelli]

Yeh, but Dale was talking about tire width, not diameter ! LOL Don't be in too much of a rush to buy Blue Streak's until they fix the " pits " at Hampton. Everyone that ran Bluestreak's at the BMW festival, drove stones from the pits , straight thru the case of the tires. This year all but one car ran Hossier's and that car changed to another brand of tire after the first race. ( or should I say after the first return to the pits ) Probably not an inditment on the tires, rather the state of the .......

[AMCO72]

Yeh. The FIRST thing you HAVE to do after a race is to get the car up on jacks and rub all the stones off the tread with a pair of leather gardening gloves, while the tyres are hot, otherwise they just get stuck and you are in big trouble.

Things were a bit better this year, but there always seems to be stones on the concrete. A good broom is essential kit for the garage area.

I remember Ruapuna was bad for this with a lot of the pit area littered with stones, sharp ones, and what is more these seem to get carried from the dummy grid out onto the track at the end of the front straight. First couple of laps into a race, whammo, chips on the windscreen.
Think Teretonga was the best with all it's grassy areas. Lovely track, pity it is so far away.

[Steve Holmes]

I was looking at the Goodyear Bluestreak tyres fitted to the HMC cars at the festival. They have a VERY fine tread pattern, not chunky at all. And of course after a few skids there is 5/8th's of f-all tread left, which turns them nicely into a slick!!!!!!
They are good tyres though, and Dale tells me that he thinks they make them in a 10 inch size. Will have to check it out.

Bernie Hines did a lot of checking in |America before settling on the American Racers, so I'm puzzled as to why he didnt try the Goodyears. Maybe there was a big price difference, as the American racers are designed for dirt tracks, so their life on tarseal is very short. Their main problem is that they heat up too much, and then just fly to pieces. You can hear chunks of rubber hitting the inner guards.

Gerald, you should investigate the Hoosier as well. Seems a lot of guys are moving across to that because its quite a lot cheaper than the Goodyear equivalent. I think for any car that races in US vintage events there is usually a suitable cross-ply tyre for it because there is a such a big market, and that should include the Mini.

[Rod Grimwood]

Found it Jac, pink. also got photo somewhere of it this colour parked backwards up bank at Mainfield by Mr Baker.
Think it may have been this colour when Leo biffed the bank at Puke as well.

Think dark blue was one of last colours before the light blue.

[Jac Mac]

Rod, It was also painted in the same colour theme that the Mustang II has been currently been restored to, this was the period that Dave & then Graeme Baker ran it with Boss 302 power in the OSCA series~1976/1978.

Been thru a lot the old girl- w/shop fire, at least two major prangs as you mention above. like I mentioned earlier I would like to see replicas of each evolution with regard to body changes etc, just look thru the pics you have posted...we have cologne type flares-MK1 escort type flares- no flares, side scoops-no scoops, centerlock wheels-5stud wheels... Hell you could have a PDL Mustang replica series race on its own merits with seven or more cars. That type of thinking applies to a lot of cars... The Fahey Capri, gosh under Inkys ownership alone that car also had about 5 colour schemes & various front/rear spoiler/wing combos

[John McKechnie]

Now that would be real Formula Ford racing, Dale would love a grid like you are talking about Jac Mac.

[Kiwiboss]

Yeh, but Dale was talking about tire width, not diameter

No Dave, i was talking about diameter!! Hoosier make a historic tyre in a 165/70-10 which i presume will fit a Mini?

Also, you must remember there is a HUGE difference between a "radial"(modern) slick and a "Bias"(old) slick, all pre 12/77 Historic and Classic racers should be on a bias as this was mostly what was used back in the day, otherwise, yes its a DOT road tyre you must use so nothing wrong with that rule. BUT, cars like your Escort(Jaydee) we will allow to use/and should be on a Historic bias tyre in historic and classic racing such as the Festival of Motor Racing. Wether a Goodyear BS or Hoosier Historic range these tyres are avaliable 365 days of the year and that helps solve the supply problem, and thats the idea for HMC. If your tyre range is what is used in American historic racing this makes life easier and the Yanks generaly haven't changed tyre manufacturing over the years like other DOT road/race manufacturers do, the Blue Streak has been made continues since the 70's.

Dale M

[Jac Mac]

You reckon, he would be crying bucketfuls thinking of cutting out the wheel archs to put on some of those flare designs:), I suppose if we hung around the pits after an HMC meet we might get a few cosmeticly damaged front / rear guards for a crate of speights rather than cut up the pristine ones, you know....when you fellas 'inadvertently' bump into one another....:)

[Kiwiboss]

Now that would be real Formula Ford racing, Dale would love a grid like you are talking about Jac Mac.

You are quite correct John, I(like others) would absolutely luv to see these old girls back out on the track in there original guiss!! and although others have gotten "off track" on this original posting the idea that Steve(Holmes) posted up here is a damn good one. Lets hope that one day this will happen, certainly would be worth watching at a "proper" historic race event!!

Dale M

[Parnelli]

[QUOTE=Kiwiboss;25566]No Dave, i was talking about diameter!! Hoosier make a historic tyre in a 165/70-10 which i presume will fit a Mini?

Hey Dale, the comment about sizing was "tonge in cheek" , but I still doubt that Goodyear do any Blue Streaks in 10" diameter.

[fullnoise68]

For those of you looking for odd ball size slicks or treaded race tyres, check out www.metcalfracing.com and if they haven`t got your size, they probably can get them in for you. A friend of mine in the US deals with them and reckons they are very helpful.
Have a look at some of the Historic Race Cars they have got for sale, buy them now while the US dollar is up!